Talk:Ugrians

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Even though this is just a stub, the content is mostly beside the point. The topic of the article, "Ugrians", is defined with one sentence; the rest is mostly general information on Finno-Ugric peoples and does not belong in this article. --AAikio 13:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the stuff on Finno-Ugrians, and put a link to that article in the "See also" section. --Zundark (talk) 10:48, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Hungarians are not Ugrians

Re. recent edits, some sources claim this because of the supposed connection between the languages. But Yugria was the country east of Perm, and included the Ket, Komi, Nenet, Selkup and Udmurt.

After the Russian conquest of Yugria, Czar Ivan III used the title "King of the Ugrians" in correspondence with the king of Hungary. That wasn't a territorial claim. — kwami (talk) 12:53, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

What my edits provided was the contemporary terminology that is used to label various historic and contemporary peoples. I have provided sources for this terminology at Talk:Finnic peoples#Western Finns, and included some of them here in the article (see revision before the revert). You should also read the sources in the version to which you reverted. You will find that none of them agree with your personal terminology.

Here's what Sinor 1990, The Cambridge History of Early Inner Asia, p.253, says in a chapter named Ob-Ugrians (underlining mine, and some accents omitted):

The Medieval Islamic geographers make mention of the Wisu and Yura as peoples who lived beyond the Volga Bulghars in the far north and with whom the latter traded for furs. [...] The Yura are the Yugra (Ugra, Iugra of the Rus' chronicles), the Ob-Ugrians, the earliest stages of whose history we have already reviewed. At present they consist of two peoples, the Mansi-Vogul and the Khanty-Ostiak.

So, it seems you are conflating this historic terminology (Yugra) with the present-day terminology, in which the "Ugrian peoples" includes both the Ob-Ugrians and the Hungarians (according to sources that I provided). Note also that the reverted version referred to "linguistic ancestors", which was the term which the reliable source "The Oxford Guide to the Uralic Languages" uses, so your argument about ethnicities is irrelevant. And regardless what you imply in the revert summary, I never claimed that "Ugrian peoples" would constitute a very meaningful ethnic unit in contemporary world. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 15:19, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami:: Steven Danver's Encyclopedia Native Peoples of the World (2015) contains your above statements, so I assume you are using it as a source here. The policy WP:TERTIARY urges some caution in using tertiary sources like this. The encyclopedia seems to be mostly good quality, but this specific article titled Samoyedic is very dubious (available at archive.org, pp. 235 and 236). Let me quote the first two paragraphs of the article:

The name Samoyedic is a Russian term meaning “self-eater,” a reference to the alleged practice of cannibalism as described in twelfth-century Russian chronicles. It is a simplification of the ethnic composition of western Siberia, which is inhabited by a diverse set of Ob-Ugrian peoples. Their territory stretches from the northern course of the Dvina River in northern Russia to the Ob River in western Siberia and the Sayan Mountains in the southwestern part of the Altay range.
In the southwest, the Ugrians were influenced significantly by the Turks, and they are related ethnically and linguistically to the Finns and Hungarians. Living next to Russians and Turks, the Ugrians gradually assimilated into those cultures, a fact that is reflected in many loan words from Russian and Turkic, along with southwestern Siberian dialects. The most prominent ethnic groups among the Ugrians are the Ket, Komi, Nenet, Selkup, and Votiak.

What is presented here is a full-blown confusion between Samoyeds (e.g. Ket, Nenets, Selkup), Ob-Ugrians (Khanty and Mansi) and other northern Finno-Ugric peoples (Komi and Votiak a.k.a. Udmurt). The article does cite some good-quality sources which do not share this terminological confusion, but instead make a clear distinction between these peoples. I think you should self-revert per WP:BURDEN if you don't have a better source. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 08:42, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Danver was the source of my statement above, but I'd never heard of him before this discussion.

He seems to be conflating two uses of 'Ugric', the original one (now obsolete) of those non-Turko-Mongolic peoples east of Perm, and a later one of those Finns who were linguistically closest to the Hungarians (or at least supposedly so), the Hanti and Mansi. In neither era were the Hungarians 'Finns'. — kwami (talk) 10:45, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

I still don't know what statements like Hungarians were not 'Finns' mean, as you have some personal interpretation of the word Finn, and you would also need to specify in which sense you use the word 'were'. Not that it matters much, Finns are not relevant here, and for all I care, we can drop the mention of the 'Ugrian Finns' per WP:DUE as antiquated and rare terminology. Especially at this stage, when we don't discuss other historic terminology. But if we decide to keep it, we need to be faithful to the source, which says that "Ugrian Finns include the Voguls [...], the Ostyaks [...] and the Magyars of Hungary".

With regards to Ugrians, all we need to do is provide sources (per WP:VERIFIABILITY) which indicate how the term is used in scholarly texts, and not to impose our personal preferences. The sources provide answers to questions about which peoples are included, in which sense (ethnic or linguistic), and on which eras the term is typically used. We don't need to engage in WP:OR of our own. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 05:02, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Good. Let's not do that then. — kwami (talk) 05:50, 4 February 2024 (UTC)