Aitkegs

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"Minor" edits

Just a heads up that you shouldn't tick the "minor" box when making substantial edits to an article (e.g. expanding and/or creating an information box). Minor edits are meant for things like spelling mistakes, grammar corrections, formatting. WP:MINOR. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 23:18, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

January 2015

Hello, I'm GiantSnowman. I noticed that you made a change to an article, Bob Ferrier (Scottish footballer), but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so! If you need guidance on referencing, please see the referencing for beginners tutorial, or if you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. GiantSnowman 20:46, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

A page you started (1898–99 Dumbarton F.C. season) has been reviewed!

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1908-09 Dumbarton F.C. season

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Charles Ballantyne (footballer)

Okay I noticed you put place of death missing for Charles Ballantyne (footballer), do you have any info if this guy is deceased or not? Yes it is unlikely he is alive-but remember if there is no date of death to be found and they were born after 1905 put them as possibly living. Wgolf (talk) 23:53, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Dumbartonshire Cup

This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a web search with the contents of Dumbartonshire Cup, and it appears to include material copied directly from http://scottish-football-historical-archive.com/dumbartonshirecup.htm.

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• Hi, I saw your comment on this article: "(No copyright issues as SFHA site permits use of content if acknowledgment made public)". Can you link to where that is said on the SFHA site? Our license is fine with that kind of release, but we need to explicitly link to it in the article so re-users down the road can plainly see the terms. Thanks for your work! Crow^Caw 18:50, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

• Hello again, and sorry to be a pest! Thanks for adding the link to the site, but that still is insufficient to allow direct copying of the text. We need to link to where the site explicitly states that the content can be re-used. This is because anything that goes up here can be re-used by anyone else for any reason, so we need to make sure that the source does allow that to happen. Thanks, Crow^Caw 20:24, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

A page you started (Tony Hepburn) has been reviewed!

Thanks for creating Tony Hepburn, Aitkegs!

Wikipedia editor Newrunner769 just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

Maybe a small bio would add some good info?

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Ways to improve Sam Bryceland

Hi, I'm Musa Raza. Aitkegs, thanks for creating Sam Bryceland!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. No other pages link to this page.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse. Musa Talk  20:01, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

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1964–65 Dumbarton F.C. season

added a link pointing to Drew Nelson

1965–66 Dumbarton F.C. season

added a link pointing to Drew Nelson

1966–67 Dumbarton F.C. season

added a link pointing to Drew Nelson

List of Dumbarton F.C. players

added a link pointing to Drew Nelson

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Benny Cairns

Hi,

There is obviously a mistake on Benny Cairns birthdate, can you correct it?

Cdlt, VIGNERON * ^discut. 14:01, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

John Eadon

on John Eadon, I am guessing the year span for Ayr United should be 1917-1918? Frietjes (talk) 14:18, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Peter Currie (footballer)

I've noticed this on other articles as well - please ensure you include page numbers for books. GiantSnowman 18:00, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

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Autopatrolled granted

Hi Aitkegs, I just wanted to let you know that I have added the "autopatrolled" permission to your account, as you have created numerous, valid articles. This feature will have no effect on your editing, and is simply intended to reduce the workload on new page patrollers. For more information on the patroller right, see Wikipedia:Autopatrolled. Feel free to leave me a message if you have any questions. Happy editing! Nakon 01:04, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Honours

Hi, while adding honours to players, you might want to use this which is a standard format. Cheers, GiantSnowman 08:22, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of Tommy Coyne (footballer, born 1987)

The article Tommy Coyne (footballer, born 1987) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Footballer who only played at semi-professional level (Scottish Division 3), fails WP:FOOTYN and WP:GNG.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

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Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Jellyman (talk) 22:13, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Tommy Coyne

Hello, you seem to have misunderstood my rationale for PRODding the Tommy Coyne article. I wasn't claiming that it suggested he was a full-time footballer, I was pointing out that as he hasn't been one he therefore fails WP:NFOOTBALL. As such, the article needs to demonstrate notability / significant coverage under WP:GNG, which it doesn't really. Looking through your contributions, you've done admirable work compiling information on Dumbarton players through the ages, but some of them do appear to be of questionable notability by our criteria; I wouldn't be surprised if you find some more being put up for deletion in future. Anyway, it's not something I'm going to pursue, as you're clearly a valuable editor with many of your contributions. Jellyman (talk) 07:54, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of Ross McKinnon (footballer)

The article Ross McKinnon (footballer) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Does not meet WP:NFOOTY#Association football guidelines - never played for Motherwell and all other teams were not in Professional Leagues

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Crowsus (talk) 22:45, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

On the books isn't enough, has to play a league game. And despite its name, as you know the SPFL contains many clubs who aren't fully professional. I fully realise that sometimes full time clubs fall to the third tier and part time clubs go up to the second, but in general the Championship is the lowest full time level so that's where the project put the cut off for a pro league. Ross never played at that level and has since dropped to the Juniors. AfD to follow. Crowsus (talk) 14:28, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tommy Coyne (footballer, born 1987)

Don't want it to seem like I am picking on you personally as that is not what it is, but I have added Coyne to the AfD list (spotted it while adding note for Ross McKinnon, and I only came across him due to making links from his uncle's article). Coyne hasn't been updated for several years in relation to his career, and as I have stated in the notes, it doesn't mention his dad although there are sources for that. The big thing of course is that he has never played at 'Championship' level which seems like a reasonable cut-off for Scottish football. He has ended up in the juniors which is a goood level to play at, but not meriting a separate wiki article. Crowsus (talk) 23:28, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

June 2017

Please do not remove Articles for deletion notices from articles or remove other people's comments in Articles for deletion pages, as you did with Tommy Coyne (footballer, born 1987). Doing so won't stop the discussion from taking place. You are, however, welcome to comment about the proposed deletion on the appropriate page. Thank you. Jellyman (talk) 09:48, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Notability criteria

Hello. Judging by your comments on the Tommy Coyne deletion discussion, it appears you are not aware of our notability criteria. Wikipedia does not allow articles on everything and anyone – we have set standards on the level of notability required for an article. For footballers, the requirement is that they must have played in a fully-professional league – i.e. the Scottish Premiership or Championship. Cheers, Number 57 15:52, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Craig McLeish

The article Craig McLeish has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Non-notable semi-professional footballer, hasn't played in a fully professional league, only source is statistical. Fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTY.

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Nomination of Craig McLeish for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Craig McLeish is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Craig McLeish until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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Dumbarton F.C. seasons

Hello, just wanted to discuss with you edits on some of the Dumbarton F.C. seasons articles from the other day. My understanding is that the consensus for club season articles is to follow the Manual of Style and I can't find any more recent discussions WT:FOOTY archives contradicting this (if you know of one, please point it out to me).

In you edit summaries (here and here) you suggest that it is "more informative as it includes opponents details". After reviewing the page, I can't see any new information which has been included now and was not or could not have been included beforehand so I'd appreciate it if you could point it out to me. There is also no reason that any additional information cannot be added with an additional column in the results tables.

You have also suggested that the style you have used is "Per style used for all Scottish club records since 2000". This is not true, see 2018–19 Kilmarnock F.C. season as an example.

Let me know what you think.

Also, a wee tip- when writing the score of a football match, the consensus is to use an ndash (–) and not a hyphen (-) so 3–2 instead of 3-2. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 08:48, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

@Stevie fae Scotland: I seem to have Aitkegs talk page watched for some reason,can't remember why. Anyway, I became aware of your message. There are 19 season articles for Scottish clubs for 18-19. Do you know how many are using the format you suggested? Just one, Kilmarnock. All the rest use the footballbox template. So you are definitely in the minority there. I'm sure there are better things you could be doing with your time than trying to force another editor to conform to your preferred style for articles which are never likely to have many views, are (in my view) improved by the changes and when the format you propose appears to be out of fashion and possibly obsolete. Maybe you should seek clarification at WP:FOOTY? Thanks. Crowsus (talk) 09:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

@Crowsus: I'm not forcing anyone "to conform". I'm asking to discuss. If my tone does not suggest that then I apologise.

I had thought that upon reading Aitkegs response the next step could be WP:FOOTY to either seek consensus on whether to use MOS in its current format or to change it and update articles accordingly. I prefer it in it's current format as the information is not hidden in a collapsed box and it doesn't rely on 30+ templates per page (although much less for the specific articles in question in this discussion) but I'll change how I edit if the consensus is for the footballbox.

I'm still interested to hear Aitkegs views and perhaps we can pursue a discussion at WP:FOOTY afterwards to find the best way forward. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 11:26, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

@Stevie fae Scotland: no sorry, my tone was harsh, yours was fine, but tbf was accompanied by reverts. I can see your points with the format, but I think if one person does it one way, no real need to change or suggest them to change it to the other, both have their benefits and drawbacks. Hopefully Aitkegs will respond§soon and we can take it from there. Crowsus (talk) 11:42, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

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Re- consensus at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 125#Club season article MoS

Hello, I noticed you reverted my edits on 1873–74 Dumbarton F.C. season and 1874–75 Dumbarton F.C. season. The above discussion ascertained that there was no consensus to change the current MoS for season articles to the football box style so they should retain the previous form. It also ascertained that the football box style was not compliant with WP:ACCESSIBILITY, MOS:LIST and MOS:TABLE. Per the established consensus (which was stated at the end of the discussion and not contradicted), changes were made to Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Club seasons (see here). I don't want an edit war to break out so I want you to give you a chance to change my mind - if there are other polices or guidlines that I should take account of, point them out to me and maybe we can have a second go at changing the MOS. Thanks Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 17:26, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

@Stevie fae Scotland: A 'concensus' means a meeting of minds. As far as I can see there has been no such thing. All that you have are those like you who favour MOS (outdated as you have admitted) and those like me who favour footballbox (used by the vast majority of current club season page authors). I have no intention of spending time updating an outmoded style when there is a perfectly good style available. All you are going to achieve at best is a style 'war' - and I cannot see, for example, 19 of the 20 Scottish club pages for the 2019-20 season being re-drafted because a so-called style wasn't followed. As I said previously guidelines are set to provide guidance - they are not mandatory rules. So unless the footballbox style is 'banned' then I, like the majority of my Wikipedia footy stat colleagues, will continue to set out factual data in that preferred style. Aitkegs (talk)

Can we work together and try and change it then? The table meets those policies (that doesn't mean it's perfect) and football box doesn't but that doesn't mean there aren't other policies to take account of that would hold more sway in a discussion to change it. What we can't do is just go in and say 'I like this' or 'it is this way' (just because it is doesn't mean it ought to be) without backing it up. There may also be a third solution somewhere in the middle that is better for everyone. I'll have another look and see what I can find and I'd really appreciate any help you can offer. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 07:23, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

@Stevie fae Scotland: I think you are missing the point. The vast majority of authors of Scottish football club season pages have moved on from the outdated MOS. Even if we were to look at updating MOS, which I don't intend to, it would still mean convincing those other authors to change the hundreds of pages which have already been using the footballbox style, and that just wouldn't happen. In fact you are arguing against your own point of view - you cannot say on one hand that we must follow the guidelines on MOS, and then on the other consider changing that style, as that would be against the 'guidelines'. One way or another I think you have to accept that as more information becomes available e.g. through British Newspaper Archive etc., then authors will be looking to present that data and MOS doesn't have the capability of doing that but footballbox does.Aitkegs (talk)

I don't know how many times I've said this, but the whole point in the MoS is to ensure that information is presented in the same way so it keeps articles consistent and avoids confusion. If it needs to be updated or changed to reflect current policies and guidelines then it should be done (although it currently meets a lot more than the football box style does) and articles updated accordingly. That can take time, but it doesn't mean it can't be done. The only problem I can see here is that you haven't pointed out one policy which football box meets and could, therefore, lead to a proper argument to implement the change. All you're saying is that it is this way so it should stay this way. You've actually argued that editors will look to include more information yet the style you advocate defaults to hiding that information which is completely pointless, you might as well not add it in.

I won't make any changes to any articles just because I like this style (something that won't convince any editor), I'll do it because it reflects the policies and guidelines and I'll be happy to discuss any changes with any reasonable editor. Who knows, perhaps that will lead to a discussion that can implement a progressive change to the MoS if it needs it. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 08:46, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

@Stevie fae Scotland: I know you've said it - but it doesn't make it right. If the guidelines say stick with MOS then by definition, changing it is against policy. And to say that footballbox is pointless because it 'hides' information behind the score is just nonsense - the information is there for those who wish to see more information - and that is the whole ethos behind Wikipedia. After all how do you know that all readers wish to see is 'date', 'opponents' 'score' venue' 'scorers' and 'attendance'. Whoever developed MOS thought this was sufficient at the time - but time has moved on as I've tried to explain.

If you wish to use MOS then I have no objection - but use it on the pages you have created - and leave the majority of us whose only 'crime' is to favour another style of presentation alone. Aitkegs (talk)

Forgot to mention a further flaw in your argument. If footballbox is pointless by hiding data - then MOS must be too as you have to click on the 'venue' to find out where the match took place - I rest my case.

That's not how Wikipedia works. Everyone has the right to edit and contribute to any page, no matter who created it. See WP:OWNERSHIP. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 13:49, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Once again you have taken my comments out of context. Of course anyone can contribute to a Wikipedia entry - BUT this should be to improve, enhance, correct, edit etc. - NOT to go backwards by stubborn adherence to an outmoded style. It's ridiculous to think otherwise.~~

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