Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jumpswing (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete for lack of any reliable sources. Sandstein 20:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jumpswing

The following text is copied and pasted from Talk:Jumpswing, with minor modifications.

IMHO this article is not noteworthy.

Every reference in the article (except for one) goes to a single website, www.jumpswing.com, written and maintained by Kurt Lichtmann, and essentially all of the text came directly from that website.
The one reference that is not www.jumpswing.com, is about a fact that has nothing to do with jumpswing.
The article was created by User:Arieljoy (Ariel), who appears to be one of the people who teaches swing classes (including jumpswing) at Cornell and is their choreographer. "All Swing Dance classes are taught by Kurt [Lichtmann] and his lovely assistants from the club: Kristin, Lauren, Erica, Ariel, Leah." [1], and "Choreography: Ariel mak84" [2].
The only contributions that User:Arieljoy has made to Wikipedia is to add references/info about jumpswing.
~~Kurt Lichtmann has apparently moved from Cornell to Ithaca, NY, which is why Ithaca has something about jumpswing now. (Reference deliberately withheld for privacy reasons.)~~ Oops! Kirt Lichtmann is at Cornell, which is in Ithaca, NY. Duh... That would explain why his address is in Ithaca, NY.
Every dance related search result for "jumpswing" on Google goes back to the group at Cornell/Ithaca/jumpswing.com (same people, two websites; both refer to Kurt Lichtmann who is the same guy mentioned above). The rest of the search results are about the type of music called jumpswing and other completely unrelated topics, like playing volleyball.
The first dance related search result for "jump swing" on Google goes back to the Cornell/Ithaca/jumpswing.com group. I found another search result for "jump swing" much much later that was about combining classic swing steps (East Coast Swing/ECS/6-count swing) with Lindy Hop patterns (in this case, they probably mean 8-count patterns -- Lindy Hop is primarily composed of 6-count and 8-count patterns, but it also incorporates X-count patterns, where X is any number, usually even/divisible by 2).[3]

Contrary to what Chunky Rice said in the first nomination for deletion on August 10, 2007, I actually did not find a single dance studio that is teaching jumpswing/jump swing. If there is any mention of it, they mean they'll be teaching ECS with Lindy Hop, which is a natural learning progression for a dancer who wants to learn Lindy Hop.
Kurt calls jumpswing a subset of Lindy Hop: "Jumpswing is a subset of Lindy Hop patterns rearranged to appeal to the energies and abilities of frisky beginners"[4] and the rationale for giving it a new name is a bit vague: "Following the lead of Skippy Blair and Sonny Watson, we smoothed out the rough edges, and introduced the swing-out much later in the syllabus. With all the changes, a name change also seemed appropriate..."[5] He changed the order in which steps are taught in Lindy Hop to make the dance more accessible to beginners and decided to give his dance syllabus/teaching method a new name?
If you look at the videos of jumpswing that there are links for in the article, they're dancing Lindy Hop with a neo-swing style (upright, very hoppy) but without a single swing-out.
It already states in the article that "The 6-count pattern is identical to 6-count Lindy Hop kick patterns." All of the variations can be found in Lindy Hop, as well as the so-called Retro Swing kick. Then it states "The 8-count pattern is the same as the basic Charleston pattern", which are the Charleston patterns found in Lindy Hop. So both the 6-count and 8-count patterns in jumpswing are Lindy Hop patterns.
Sonny's Retro Swing Dance Video, which is mentioned in the article, covers traditional East Coast Swing steps (Patterns / Steps) and Lindy Hop steps (Charleston, Charleston and Shag Kicks), as well as several jazz steps associated with Lindy Hop (Companion Dances explained and broke down). It looks like your typical dance video to teach people how to eventually Lindy Hop.

So is it noteworthy to call something a new dance because you decided to teach the swing-out (a basic step in Lindy Hop) at an advanced stage and mix in East Coast Swing steps? I would think not since this is not unusual. There are many dance instructors who would recommend beginners first learn East Coast Swing/6-count swing before starting Lindy Hop because ECS is easier to master. Since the swing-out is a difficult step to learn, it would naturally be mastered later. If someone already knows ECS, there's no reason why they would not toss in ECS steps while dancing Lindy Hop since the two dances mix together with no problems whatsoever. You can see people do this at swing dances.

If anything, jumpswing is a neo-swing style (upright, very hoppy) of Lindy Hop. That still doesn't seem noteworthy enough to have its own page.

A few more reasons why this article is not noteworthy:

All Google news hits for "jump swing" refer to the swing music style called jump swing.
The one and only Google new hit for "jumpswing" also refers to the swing music style called jump swing. "Introducing the newest form of MTV-ready alternative music -- jazz. ... That, in a nut, is Squirrel Nut Zippers..." (Squirrel Nut Zippers is a neo-swing band from Austin, TX)
All wikilinks to "neo swing" (found in Lindy Hop, Lindy hop today, and Talk:Swing revival, are also about the swing music style called jump swing, but currently are incorrectly being redirected here.
Any wikilinks to this article about a dance called jumpswing were created by User:Arieljoy, who created this article.
The article itself lists "Neo Swing" as a type of music that jumpswing is danced to but Neo Swing (in the article) is actually a wikilink to Swing revival. This wikilink was created by User:Arieljoy when the page was created, and supports the evidence that Neo Swing, aka Jump Swing/Jumpswing most commonly refers to a style of swing music that emerged during the swing revival of the 1990s.

If there has ever been a news article about "jump swing" or "jumpswing", it is about a style of swing music (swing music that became popular in the late 1990s), not a dance. Info about neo-swing/jump swing bands is already covered in Swing revival. Thus it would be more correct to redirect Neo swing, Neoswing, (Neo-swing, mentioned in History of Lindy Hop), Jump Swing, and Jumpswing to Swing revival. Currently, all redirect to Jumpswing. panda 04:44, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My recommendation: Redirect to Swing revival or Delete (in case it wasn't obvious). panda 20:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep — as I understand it, the swing revival involved both the music and the dance style. I'm not sure that the distinction you're drawing between jump swing music and jump swing dancing exists; at any rate, this reference seems to be about the dance style, as do several of the references linked from here — for example, Google's excerpt for the Post-Standard reference reads, "... he will join other professional DANCE instructors IN presenting more than 30 workshops (on THE LINDY HOP, Charleston, shim-sham, jump SWING and more). ..." Seems notable to me. If needed, the article's lead can be tweaked to clarify that "jump swing" can refer both to the dance and the music. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your first reference, an article/advertisement written on 17 July 2003 titled "Jump, swing and dance" in The Sacramento Bee, is exactly what I have addressed in one of the points. It states in the article that "Instruction will combine classic swing steps with Lindy Hop patterns." This is ECS + Lindy Hop and is, as previously stated, the normal way that many swing/Lindy Hop instructors teach the dance.

The second article is about Frankie Manning, a Lindy Hop dancer, teaching at a Lindy Hop workshop in Syracuse, NY from 15-17 October 2004. The persons who taught jump swing were Kurt Lichtmann & Iska Ziver[6], still the same Cornell/Ithaca/jumpswing.com group.[7] The same pair also taught "jump swing" in 2003 at the 2003 Frankie Manning workshop in Syracuse.[8] (The first Frankie Manning workshop in Syracuse was in 2002 and there is no mention of jump swing at that workshop.[9] After 2004, there were no more Frankie Manning workshops in Syracuse.) The only people who seem to be teaching a dance called jumpswing are the Cornell/Ithaca/jumpswing.com group.

Just for the record, both of the articles you referred to are ones that you would have to pay to see the entire article. Especially from the 2nd example, it should be clear that just seeing "jump swing" in an article that also includes "dance" does not tell the entire story and you need to be able to read the entire article to understand if it is relevant to the discussion or not.

These are still minor points as the majority of references to jump swing refer to a type of swing music, not a dance. panda 06:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The body of the article talks about both the dance and the music. All that needs changing is the lead. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is still no evidence that jumpswing is taught anywhere outside of the Cornell/Ithaca/jumpswing.com group so there would need to be more changes to the article than just a change to the lead. (The majority of the article is about the dance.) If you read the music section of Jumpswing and compare it with the information in Swing revival, when the Jumpswing article is not talking about the dance, the music info is essentially the same as the info in Swing revival. If you feel the music info is important, then it should be merged into Swing revival. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that all of the info in the article comes from only one source: jumpswing.com. (The one exception is already noted above.) panda 07:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One more point about the music, the article gives a general description of swing music and how it was characterized in the swing revival, but calls it Jumpswing instead. Jumpswing, more commonly spelled "jump swing" and also known as "retro swing" or "neo-swing" (and all of its spelling alternatives), was one of the names used to describe the type of music that neo-swing bands played during the swing revival of the 1990s/2000s, where a neo-swing band is a new swing bands that formed during that time period. The Jumpswing article currently states:

"An essential element to Jumpswing is the strong back beat of the up-tempo music to which it is set. This highly emphasized back beat, a product of the melding of swing and rock in the late ‘90s, is what distinguishes the Jumpswing style music from that of the traditional swing era, which employed a more even quarter-note beat. The back beat, beats 2, 4, 6, and 8 of the standard 8-count phrase, usually hit on a snare drum and reflected by other instruments in the ensemble, receive more emphasis in the Jumpswing style."

1. The music info appears to only come from Kurt Lichtmann, which brings us back to the Cornell/Ithaca/jumpswing.com group. If you look at Kurt Lichtmann's syllabus for PE146 - Intro To Swing, section B: Connect to the Music, it states:

"Listen before you dance. Find the strong quarter-note pulse. Listen to the bass and drums. Feel the backbeat, the drive on the even beats (2,4,6,8 of the 8-count phrase.) Stronger grooves have a snare drum backbeat."

Also from the jumpswing.com site, which is actually located in Kurt Lichtmann's web account at Cornell and written by Kurt Lichtmann, it states:

"Jumpswing dates to the late 1990's swing revival in southern California: Long Beach and Redondo Beach. Originally termed Retro or Jump or Neo Swing, it followed the regional post-punk, post-rockabilly enthusiasm, as many punk bands and mosh pit dancers converted to swing. The original music featured an up-tempo amalgamation of rock, jump blues, and big band swing - a strong backbeat is characteristic."

2. One of the essences of swing music is its strong back beat, as stated in the FAQ from rec.arts.dance:

"Swing music emphasizes the division of the beat a lot. That's the essence of the swing feel. Swing clearly divides in 2-beat units, and the music usually has strong backbeats that differentiate between the strong beat (downbeat) or the weak beat (backbeat)."

3. Furthermore, the swing revival was about the blending of swing music with rock & roll, which can been seen from the above text by Kurt Lichtmann at the jumpswing.com site and also found in swing revival:

"Most swing revival bands were based around a rock and roll rhythm section..."

–panda 14:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I don't usually say "per nom," but let's just say that I find the extensive case outlined above convincing. -Chunky Rice 11:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I changed my vote from previous nomination, because after more careful consideration it indeed appears that all information is coming from a single source, related to the article author hence it is original research. And no clai ms of notability beyond claims it is taught in a couple of studios (again, the claim comes from the same source). Mukadderat 17:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Somebody could take as much time on the article as they did with this deletion page.--Amadscientist 20:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a reason for your decision? panda 23:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - the sole contributor didn't respond neither to first nor to this nomination warning in their talk page, and no one else seems to rush to prove the notability of the dance. So far it looks like a blatant advert of a new product. `'Míkka 15:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete reasons stated on discussion page of the article. Steve Pastor 19:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Perhaps I should stick my two cents in here. Ya, Kurt here, in Ithaca. This is my first ever wiki entry, so please don't hurt me too much. This is not meant to be a scholarly point-by-point rebuttal, but a clarification of some key issues. First, I would like to thank panda, and josiah rowe, for thinking enough about jumpswing to present arguments for AND against retaining Arieljoy's fairly thorough jumpswing article in wiki, along with listing of jumpswing among the swing dance styles on the wiki swing dance page.

Unless one has seen a lot of the jumpswing dance or better yet, danced it, especially to appropriate uptempo strong backbeat music of recent decades, the distinctive qualities of the dance may not be apparent. Now, contrary to FAQ from rec.arts.dance description, listening to a lot of the swing era big band swing, you hear an almost EVEN swing beat. For the most part, in big band swing of the '30s, a backbeat (strong 2468) is only very subtly brought out. It is the late 1940s, with the advent of rhythm & blues and jump blues, one starts to hear strong backbeat, supported not just by the snare drums, but rhythm guitar, piano, and other instruments as well. Want references? Just go listen to a lot of music! The distinct feel of jumpswing dance is brought out most with hard-backbeat faster music, especially more recent music - fast motown, fast rock, and fast pop. If a person gave jumpswing an honest shot at trying to dance it, rather than just trying to figure it out from a web article or a couple of short lo-res videos, they might understand. As a start, it is boppier (up/down pulse) than fast lindy, and notably hits the backbeat nicely.

True, our jumpswing patterns are mostly a subset of fast Lindy, but the feel is different, as stated above. Again, the word is mostly - we have are cool adaptations from St. Louis Shag, Balboa, etc.

Now, suppose you saw an entire dance with no swing-outs, would you say that was Lindy Hop, even if there were a lot of charleston patterns and 6-count moves? Most lindy hoppers would say, "that's not lindy!" In jumpswing, even at a more advanced level that includes swingouts, the swing-out, although done, is not the focal move. Hence, jumpswing is a bit distinct in from common Fast Lindy.

Jumpswing is not a marginal dance style - well over 5000 students have taken the jumpswing classes at Cornell University since 1997. (Sorry, I am not gong to post the class lists to prove it.) Many of these students have taught it, and will teach it, informally to their friends, children, students, etc. elsewhere in the world as lives and careers continue.

Contrary to panda's research, there are indeed several teachers who teach a form of the jumpswing, and they state so on their web pages, http://stnydance.com/SwingClasses/, http://www.downeastdance.net/instructors.htm, and of course http://www.swingworld.com/.

Skippy student Greg Avakian taught jumpswing at Omega Institute (he still calls it Retro, though), Rhinebeck NY summer 2006 and 2007. Skippy Blair is the most the most notable jumpswing instructor. True, Skippy is known mainly for having trained national West Coast Swing National Champions, and for her teaching training workshops. So, jumpswing is not a high priority for her - no big shakes on her website. However, Skippy feels that this dance has a value, and hence she does teach jumpswing to instructors in her workshops, and with the name "jumpswing." Want verification? Email her.

I don't need to justify Jumpswing as a dance or its name to a PhD dissertation committee. However, I would like to present at least an understanding of the dance, and why we gave it that name. From there, people will do what they want. I feel that Retro and Neo fall short of Jump in terms of a description of the dance, for reasons above. Also, I alternately use the spelling jumpswing or jump swing, although I prefer the first. I hope this minor eccentricity does not disturb people too much.

Also regarding names, some people are now calling West Coast Swing "Westie." Is this problematic? Continuing the thought, "even" the Divine has an infinite number of names.

It does seem that Arieljoy referenced my jumpswing site heavily for the article. Well, for the moment, I guess I appear to be the most enthusiastic proponent of jumpswing dance on the web (as user panda has pointed out numerous times) - however, I have no need to be so. But, should that reflect negatively on the value of the subject matter? It is not unusual for one person in a region to be a leader, or even a creator, regarding a dance style, or of anything for that matter. It is simply an issue of enthusiasm, vision, motivation, and leadership. In a dance example, Beach Bop can be traced pretty much solely to Butch Berry in Jacksonville. And it is not to hard to research into the small handful of main movers and shakers for Balboa, Carolina Shag, Lindy Hop, etc.

I occasionally get anonymous hate email from individuals who just can't stand the idea of a "new" dance or a "contending" dance, or a "derivative" dance, or a "simplified" dance, or a "degenerative dance" or a "made-up dance" or I don't know what their issue is. And for some people, apparently "jumpswing" really turns on the red flashing lights - who knows why. Um, what is wrong with new dances? Isn't the fountain of creative life beautiful and fascinating?

As an amateur dance history buff, I am interested in, and explore various swing dance styles, both personally, and for instruction. I settled on jumpswing for my beginning swing students based on experiment, and on personal appreciation of the unity of this dance style with the relevant music styles. Here in Ithaca NY, at least, it is a living, growing, meaningful, worthwhile, distinct, yet derivative, dance style that pays homage to its sources.

I run into those deadset against jumpswing, trying to find ways to obscure it, distort it, hide it, get rid of it, we still love you. For those who see its value and support it, thank you. And with or without a wikipedia entry, jumpswing dance will continue to flourish, evolve, and be important and relevant to increasing numbers of dancers. Mrverynice 18:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment to Kurt: No one is questioning whether or not there are people dancing something that you've chosen to call jumpswing. The question is how notable it is. Beyond the Cornell/Ithaca/jumpswing.com group, there is very little, if any, evidence that it is even a recognized name for a dance. Three websites is not a numerous listing and is far below the number of news articles about a style of music called jump swing (aka neo swing, retro swing, and their variations).

Of the websites you mentioned, the first calls it "Jitterbug (Jump) Swing" on that one page and "Jitterbug Swing" on their main page, which leads me to believe that they normally call the dance they teach Jitterbug Swing.
The second is an ad for various dance instructors, only one of which claims to teach Jitterbug/Jump Swing. But this same instructor seems to normally call the dance they teach "Jitterbug Swing".(Jul/Aug 2007)
The third (Skippy Blair's website) does not mention jumpswing at all. The only reference to Skippy Blair and jumpswing are your own website. If someone has to email Skippy Blair to find out that she teaches jumpswing, that would be considered original research.
From Greg Avakian's website: "Greg Avakian has been teaching swing since 1992. He and his partner, Laurie Zimmerman have been dancing together for over 8 years. They specialize in Lindy Hop, West Coast Swing, and Blues Dancing." If he's learned/taught jumpswing, then he's doesn't appear to be calling it that.

Wikipedia is not the appropriate place to validate your name – jumpswing – for a dance that (even you have stated) has no agreed upon name or recognition in the swing dance community.

-panda 22:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I'm sorry for not responding to this discussion earlier. As I AM new to wiki writing, I was not exactly sure how such matters were handled. Yes, this was my first article and contribution on wiki, but I do not feel that these should be considered as reasons for deletion of my article. Everyone has to start somewhere, and wiki presents itself as open to new people as the Free Encyclopedia that ANYONE can edit. As for responding to the recent attacks on this article:

if user panda is going present a believeable case against Jumpswing on wiki, he needs to present correct facts, not conjectures.

To start with, his comments below are conjectural, based on what is increasingly revealing itself to be a personal bias, leading me to request that his objections be considered in the light of that bias.

Quoting user panda:

"Of the websites you mentioned, the first calls it "Jitterbug (Jump)Swing" on that one page and "Jitterbug Swing" on their main page, which leads me to believe that they normally call the dance they teach Jitterbug Swing." CONJECTURE
"The second is an ad for various dance instructors, only one of which claims to teach Jitterbug/Jump Swing. But this same instructor seems to normally call the dance they teach "Jitterbug Swing"."(Jul/Aug 2007) CONJECTURE>
"...a dance that ...has no agreed upon name or recognition in the swing dance community." <comment> Panda presumes to speak for the "swing dance community.

This last comment by panda is a very big presumption. I would assert that user panda has no authority whatsoever to speak for the "swing dance community," because for one thing such a cohesive grouping cannot be said to exist; rather, the "swing dance community" consists of very diverse social groups, some large, some small, in many regions of the world, with diverse dance interests, and frequent disagreement about a variety of topics.

The objection that jumpswing has some aka's has no validity. Plenty of

dances, and other things as well have a diveristy of names. That reflects on their merit in no way whatsoever. Many sources alternately have called Lindy Hop, as Jitterbug, or Lindy, or even East Coast Swing, or Jive.

The objection that Jumpswing is foremost used as a name of a type of music

is an odd objection. Waltz is danced to waltz. Merengue is danced to merengue. Salsa is danced to salsa. Bachata is danced to bachata. Cumbia is danced to cumbia. Polka is danced to polka. Tango is danced to tango. I don't need to continue with this.

Not recognized? Jumpswing as a dance IS recognized by some considerable

authorities in the field, such as leading swing historian SONNY WATSON, links below at streetswing.com.

www.streetswing.com/video.htm

www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3booge1.htm

I admit that the majority of the sources I used came from Kurt's website and personal conversations with him. I have worked closely with Kurt, and much of my understanding and appreciation for Jumpswing, other forms of Swing, and dance in general have developed through this connection. I employed him as a main source of information because it seemed logical to me to rely on the information given by one of the innovators of the style. However, I realize that more sites recognizing jumpswing as a dance may be necessary, so here is a list:

keywen.com/Arts/Performing_Arts/Dance/Swing/

johnnymillett.tripod.com/retro_swing_video.htm

www.dancefanatics.com/WannaDance/linksdance.html

www.eijkhout.net/rad/dance_specific/swing.html

www.akswing.com/

www.activevideos.com/swing.htm

www.downeastdance.net/profilemainiacs.htm

www.savoyswing.com/community/links.asp

www.edu-cyberpg.com/IEC/video_favsMusicBoogie.html

This dance style, while looked down upon by some, does still exist and is recognized as a specific style. Any suggestions as far as improving the article to make it more appropriate for wiki are more than welcome, as this is still my first article, and thus more than likely could benefit from the opinions of more experienced wikipedians. Arieljoy 03:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to point out that nobody is questioning whether or not Jumpswing exists, just whether it is notable, according the Wikipedia guidelines. -Chunky Rice 03:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment to Arieljoy: Like I wrote to Kurt, "No one is questioning whether or not there are people dancing something that you've chosen to call jumpswing. The question is how notable it is." I invite you to read what is considered notable by Wikipedia's guidelines. Also, the information that you've added to the page may be considered, by your own admission, original research as well as a conflict of interest (in the form of self promotion and close relationships).

Sonny Watson's video has already been addressed in an earlier point. Regarding the rest of your links, listing websites that do not contain any encyclopedic info (such as links to jumpswing.com or Kurt's previous url (http://members.tripod.com/~HitIt/) that now redirects to jumpswing.com, or sites that use the term "jump swing" to mean the style of music that will be played at a swing dance, or sites that duplicate the same info) do not help show that jumpswing is notable.
I do not claim to speak for the swing dance community. You and Kurt have both stated either directly or indirectly through the links you provided that the swing dance community does not have an agreed upon name for what you call jumpswing, as evidenced by the multiple names that I've seen on the websites you have both cited: Jumpswing, Jump Swing, Jitterbug Swing, Swing, Retro Swing, Neo Swing, Street Swing, Lindy, Lindy Hop, East Coast Swing, Big Band Swing, Savoy-Style Swing, Jitterbug, Boogie-Woogie, The Boogie, etc. Nor does the swing dance community recognize jumpswing, as evidenced by Kurt's comments above:

"I occasionally get anonymous hate email from individuals who just can't stand the idea of a "new" dance or a "contending" dance, or a "derivative" dance, or a "simplified" dance, or a "degenerative dance" or a "made-up dance" or I don't know what their issue is. And for some people, apparently "jumpswing" really turns on the red flashing lights - who knows why."
"I run into those deadset against jumpswing, trying to find ways to obscure it, distort it, hide it, get rid of it, we still love you."
and replies to the question "Definition of Jump Swing" on a National Swing Discussion Board (page 1 and 2) as well as the aerials thread mentioned in that discussion.

–panda 08:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

DeleteNot notable Harlowraman 02:25, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Non notable, no reliable sources. [10] G iggy\^Talk 07:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.