Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yaser Murtaja

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There is a rough consensus that Murtaja was a notable person and/or that his death is a notable event. Several people suggested that the article could be moved to Death of Yaser Murtaja or similar, but there was no consensus on that. As neatly summarised by K.e.coffman, "whether the article is a biography or the Killing of Yaser Murtaja is immaterial to the notability of the subject". – Joe (talk) 21:34, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Yaser Murtaja

Yaser Murtaja (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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WP:NOTMEMORIAL - of this WP:BLP1E/WP:BIO1E individual. little coverage of the individual exists outside of the context of being killed in the 2018 Gaza border protests, where this is already covered Icewhiz (talk) 12:16, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 12:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 12:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 12:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• Keep - As you would say, not so fast. An investigation is ongoing surrounding the circumstances of this journalist's death. Because the Israeli military is "investigating", I doubt anyone will be charged, but the impact will exist in how it demonstrates Israel's disproportionate use of force and inability to protect the press. If I am wrong later on, redirect it. But if he was anyone other than a Palestinian, this wouldn't even be a discussion.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 12:27, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

  To the contrary - we delete casualties of events in a routine fashion, when we have an article on the event itself - which in this case we have.Icewhiz (talk) 13:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

  Do you want me to gather a few dozen diffs of you voting "per RAPID" for similar incidents with similar coverage? Keep the same quality of coverage, but change "Palestinian journalist" to "Israeli civilian" and the attitude changes. The fact is this incident is being reported independently, and a simple title change "Killing of Yaser Murtaja" addresses your BLP1E concern.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 13:22, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

  The Killing of Yaser Murtaja is not distinct from 2018 Gaza border protests in which he was killed. I am actually quite consistent in my AfD !votes (which are not ethnicity dependent) - had this been a standalone incident and not part of the coverage of the clashes - I would've supported a rename. When I !vote RAPID - it is when the event itself is distinct (with plausible inclusion in some multi-year list - here the 2018 Gaza border protests spans a couple of weeks - and per NOTMEMORIAL we do not create articles for individual casualties).Icewhiz (talk) 13:31, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

  Not going to argue this much further since it is rather obvious where this nomination is heading. And I won't even bother arguing for you to apply the same standards to all subjects. I have known you (and a few others) for too long to ask that of you.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 13:50, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• Keep as per noted saints and martyrs. Wakari07 (talk) 12:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC) The SCMP qualifies him as "well-known". Wakari07 (talk) 13:11, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

  He had a short blurb in an AJ piece in 2017 - "The civil defence workers hesitated … the paramedics were strongly against it because their colleague was killed that morning", says cameraman Yaser Murtaja. "They were worried they'd be bombed if they entered the area." [1] - which does not move him beyond 1E territory. All of the substantive coverage relates to his death in 2018 Gaza border protests.Icewhiz (talk) 13:17, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Your personal opinion does not change the headline of the South China Morning Post, meaning he was well-known before his death. Well-known Palestinian journalist Yasser Murtaja dies as Israel border clash escalates Wakari07 (talk) 13:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Then please present the sources dating before his death that discuss him--Shrike (talk) 13:41, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Of course not. It's up to you to prove those articles don't exist. Wakari07 (talk) 14:04, 8 April 2018 (UTC) But here is a second one, from CBS, saying in the article body he was "well-known" (again implying, before his death). Wakari07 (talk) 14:28, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• Keep --Alaa :)..! 13:08, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 13:50, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• Keep. The man's biography showed that he was well known in several parts of the Arab world and in his field before his death--باسم (talk) 14:15, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
• Delete (change to redirect) this WP:BIO1E. and Redirect to 2018 Gaza border protests#6 April. Editors arguing "k" above have failed to produce any evidence that this individual was notable before he was killed along with several others while participating in the [[2018 Gaza border protests; and my search using Proquest news archive [2], limited to before 1 April 2018, found nothing. If an individual is even remotely notable by our standards, that search would have produced some sort of mention. WP:NOTMEMORIAL.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:33, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Did you also search in the Arabic language? Wakari07 (talk) 15:46, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Proquest news archive searches on his fairly unique name of course show all languages writtn in the Latin alphabet. I date-limited my search to before 6 April 2018 - and Proquest found absolutely nothing.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:34, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

• Keep: not a WP:BIO1E situation and per WP:RAPID; plenty of coverage + on-going investigations. Deaths of journalists in conflict zones are generally notable; I don't see a reason to delete this article under current policies and guidelines. K.e.coffman (talk) 16:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
• Keep several articles refer to him a well-known journalist within Palestine and cite why he was a well-known journalist, for his coverage of the 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict, (e.g. surviving shujayea) his use of drones and his co-founding a media company in Palestine. Unlike other people killed, there has been much coverage about his death, per se, separate from the coverage of the 2018 Gaza protests. Thus, clear keep. --JumpLike23 (talk) 16:19, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
• Keep. Per above. Kou Dou 17:28, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
• While an al-Durrah-style Pallywood production cannot be ruled out, the article is for now a Keep if nothing else because of calls from within Zionist Union Ministers of Parliament on the Knesset to put the supposed shooter on trial.. XavierItzm (talk) 19:12, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
• Delete Wikipedia is not a memorial and he is known only for his unfortunate death. I don't think he had an article if he wasn't killed in the demonstrations. His work not that significant. Sokuya (talk) 19:43, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
• Keep — He isn't a "low-profile individual" as outlined in BLP1E. Work on Human Flow, multiple documentaries, and as founder of a media organization qualify him under WP:ARTIST. Independent coverage of the death is clearly specific to him and biographical: [3] [4] [5].--Carwil (talk) 20:33, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• Interesting. Was he credited in any of those films? I am particularly puzzled by the claim abotu Human Flow. I see that the NPR story states that "Murtaja's colleagues said he'd done videography work for the BBC, VICE and other international media, and had worked with Chinese artist Ai Weiwei on his 2017 documentary, Human Flow," an Wei Wei film about the European migrant crisis. The NPR story does not support his participation, is there a source that does? and does it stat what his role was? I am looking for evidence of notability independent of the circumstances of his death.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:42, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• answering my own question, Murtaja is one of the many "assistant cameramen" credited, but I can find no secondary sources on mention his work as a cameraman until this week.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:11, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

• Delete Relevant information can be added to 2018 Gaza border protests.--יניב הורון (talk) 21:23, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
• Keep It's clearly plausible that he will ultimately be found notable enough for an independent article, either from his past work or from the consequences of his death or both. That's all that's needed to keep the article for now under WP:RAPID. FourViolas (talk) 03:07, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
• Comment - what is lacking in all the Keep !votes is any sources (in English or Arabic) establishing notability - essentially we have a cameraman (one of hundreds in Gaza) who has done routine (yes, filming conflict in Gaza is routine for a cameraman) and got an "assistant cameramen" credit in Human Flow. He might have been first to fly a camera drone in Gaza (some sources say so - though fact checking this is difficult) - but that's not grounds for notability. In the meantime, following the burst of coverage around the funeral, coverage has mainly moves on to other issues regarding the conflict in Gaza.Icewhiz (talk) 05:52, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
• note on sourcing There is no doubt that this man's death during the 2018 Gaza border protests is notable within the context of those protests. However, WP:NOTMEMORIAL. Editors argue that he was notable in life due to his work as a cameraman. However, his listing at IMDb, here: [6] shows only a single film on which he was an assistant cameraman. Moreover, searches on his name in a Proquest news archive search on aoo dates before 6 April 2018 produce nothing at all. Nor do searches in books and in scholarly journals. His life was sadly brief, but not notable. His death is notable within the context of the 2018 Gaza border protests, where it is already discussed.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:34, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Journalism-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 15:26, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

• Delete There is nothing notable about the person before he was killed, I have done a lot of searches on him and found nothing notable. The information about him as such could be added to the Gaza riots, also what I can find out he was a captain in the HAMAS security forces and a part-time photojournalist.BernardZ (talk)
• Comment: 1. Shooting of Yaser Murtaja has already surpassed the GNG threshold: there is sustained coverage by multiple reliable sources of the shooting, funeral, investigation etc. So any "delete" votes should be rename votes. 2. We have several sources speaking to his notability as a journalist: "was a rising star in Gaza’s media scene where he was a co-founder of the Ain Media, a collective of a dozen local media professionals, which has worked with Al Jazeera, BBC Arabic and Vice in the past." (Screen Daily); ; "He was a respected cameraman for documentaries - most notably, Al Jazeera's 'Gaza: Surviving Shujayea'." [7]; "Murtaja, a 30-year-old photographer well known for his drone footage" [8]. 3. The role of Murtaja in the events surrounding the protests (including the emergence of an Israeli investigation into civilian deaths), his role is arguable "substantial and well-documented" as required by BLP1E.--Carwil (talk) 17:20, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

A couple of problems with Carwil's argument. We can satisfy WP:PRESERVE by with a REDIRECT to 2018 Gaza border protests. Note that this is one of a series of investigations being undertaken into the deaths, which can and should be covered at 2018 Gaza border protests. (and note that media outlets are now reporting an allegation that he, like many of the projectile-throwing protest marchers, was a Hamas activist.) The press reports that he was a notable journalist or cameraman have not been substantiated; assertions of this sort are often made by mourners, which is why we have WP:NOTMEMORIAL.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:44, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

• Keep - obviously notable, there has been coverage on the Times of Israel and in less local news in general about Murtaja's death for a couple days now. However it is obvious that Murtaja is notable primarily through the way he died, so I would not be opposed to the article being moved to Shooting of Yaser Murtaja or Death of Yaser Murtaja if the article is kept. Inter&anthro (talk) 14:25, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
• Snow keep pr all of the above, Huldra (talk) 22:33, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
• Keep Not a single event and has the sources to pass GNG. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 22:39, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
• Delete a POV-pushing page with no demonstration of subjects notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:23, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
• Redirect to 2018 Gaza border protests per EM Gregory. There's no need for a separate bio or a "Death of" rename.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:43, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
• Delete Was unknown before his death as was his media company. There has been some coverage, but this was not an isolated incident involving him. I have found no information involving his media company prior to his death. I doubt the media company was even a full time job as he was found to be on Hamas' payroll. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 16:17, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
• I've been wrestling back and forth on this question for the past several days, but ultimately I am persuaded to Delete by Icewhiz and E.M.Gregory. No sources have been provided that would tend to substantiate the notion that Murtaja was either notable by virtue of being a cameraman or that he was a notable cameraman. At this time, it would be appropriate to merge information on Murtaja's killing to 2018 Gaza border protests. The only thing that gives me pause is that, at some point—pending the results of the IDF's investigation and the volume of coverage from RS—it's possible that the section on Murtaja's killing could become large enough to justify a spinoff (not on the non-notable Yaser Murtaja, but rather on the possibly notable Killing of Yaser Murtaja). However, it is by no means clear that the current coverage demands such a split, or that 2018 Gaza border protests is too big to include all of the relevant information at this time. In any case, Murtaja himself is not notable merely by virtue of his untimely death.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 16:11, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
• Comment - Coverage is still ongoing [9][10][11][12]. Apparently, many people aren't buying Israel's unsubstantiated claim that he was a member of Hamas. Editors are also forgetting, if he isn't notable as a person, the event is undoubtedly notable for Israel's disregard for the safety of the press and the ongoing investigation. All we would require is a title change and a slight change in focus.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 20:00, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

References

• Keep for three reasons:

1. He stands far ahead in terms of profile versus the other casualties of the recent weeks’ events: e.g. Audrey Azoulay, the DG of UNESCO, condemned his killing personally.[13]

2. His identity has been subject to intense political debate, with the Israeli Defence Minister leading the charge.[14] What resonates with me most here is that if he really was a “high-ranking member of the military wing of the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas”, we wouldn’t be having this deletion discussion - there are many articles covering such people in wikipedia.

3. There are already reasonably detailed articles on the same topic in the Arabic and Farsi Wikipedias. Technically this shouldn’t matter as each languange’s Wikipedia is autonomous, but to me it just shows the global angles here. Let’s not forget WP:WORLDVIEW.

Onceinawhile (talk) 22:01, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: those voting delete / redirect as BIO1E are ignoring the ongoing, diverse, international coverage of this rather unusual event (death of a journalist by the Israeli military while covering a protest). Unless people believe that such events are not "unusual"? See:

Global outrage mounts over Israeli killing of Yaser Murtaja, from ‘NYT’ to Federation of Arab Journalists | Mondoweiss

Killed Palestinian Journalist Had Passed U.S. Screening For Grant Funds | NPR

Terrorist or journalist? Who really was the slain Gazan Yaser Murtaja? | The Jerusalem Post

This definitely meets WP:NEVENT; whether the article is a biography or the Killing of Yaser Murtaja is immaterial to the notability of the subject. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:29, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Except that we already have an event, which is not overly long, 2018 Gaza border protests. Frankly I am surprised by your stance here K.e.coffman - going by this logic would lead to the notability of many recipients of the Knight's Cross who were covered in the press at the time and in subsequent publications. Nothing has been shown to establish the notability of the subject outside his death during 2018 Gaza border protests.Icewhiz (talk) 18:22, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

You still have hardly touched on why the event itself--the shooting by Israeli snipers (or, according to you, the "alleged" shooting by Israeli snipers)--is not notable. You cannot deny coverage is independent of the protests themselves. Considering your stance is to routinely keep articles on any Islamist or Palestinian terror attacks with the same amount of coverage, if not less, I am as surprised as you for not being open to shifting focus slightly to the shooting (or "alleged" shooting) itself.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:33, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Had the shooting (which is established fact AFAIK) occured in a context that did not have a wiki article - e.g. some non-notable otherwise border incodent, then yes - I would have supported a "shooting of" article. However as we already have an article on the clashes, there is little cause for individual wiki articles for casulties - even when they have some subsequent human interest and spin (from both sides) coverage the week after.Icewhiz (talk) 18:48, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz Islamist and Palestinian attacks occur in a context that both have Wikipedia articles as well. Yet I constantly see articles kept on attacks by an Islamist or Palestinian that may wound one person or kill just the perpetrator, and receive equal or less coverage. No lasting impact and nothing beyond the routine "human interest" as you described it. I know you can throw out WP:OSE as your next excuse, but do you not realize the double-standard you are supporting? Honestly?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:09, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Because we do not have an article on the event (we do gave on the wider multi-year conflict). Casulty count is not a notability criteria. The parallel to this article would be individual casulty pages for 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict or Battle of Mosul (2016–2017) (and those are long pages, meriting spinoffs, unlike 2018 Gaza border protests presently.Icewhiz (talk) 19:21, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

My argument was more about the coverage and lasting impact, not casualty count, but whatever. The problem is you choose to not see the double standard.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:49, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Comment I'm clearly late to the party here, but it seems clear the article's subject is notable almost exclusively for how he was killed. Why don't we have a page, "Death of Yaser Murtaja" (or "killing" "shooting" etc, doesn't really matter), where the controversy over it can be discussed. I have seen such pages made for other such deaths protest situations, where the actual person who died wasn't notable except regarding how they died. --Calthinus (talk) 19:16, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

This is part of the 3 week event 2018 Gaza border protests.Icewhiz (talk) 19:21, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

In fact we routinely include cases similar to this within the larger event. For example, two protestors have been killed in the very similar weekly protests at Bil'in in which projectiles are thrown from slingshots at Israeli soldiers guarding the security fence. The dead have sections, in the main article, Bil'in#Deaths not have independent articles. Or consider the protests last summer in Charlottesville, Virginia, U.S. , Unite the Right rally, where a car-ramming attack killed a protestor. Not only is there no article on the dead woman- despite massive coverage of her in the news at the time, the article on the car-ramming attack, 2017 Charlottesville attack, was redirected to Unite the Right rally#Vehicular attack and homicide. What I am not seeing in the "keep" arguments is a reason to maintain a separate article when we can follow our usual practice of WP:PRESERVE by redirecting to the main article on the protest.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:20, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

E.M.Gregory Well you may remember that I opposed the deletion of 2017 Charlottesville attack. Regarding deaths in protest situations, we do have Death of Neda Agha-Soltan-- it's obviously not the exact same situation but it still could be used for comparison. But in the end it will be what editors including yourself think is best for representing the info in a way that adheres to neutrality, notability and other guidelines. This is a way that memorial-esque aspects of the page (i.e. his love of traveling-- really not important in the grand scheme of things) while also producing a solution that is acceptable to what looks like the majority with the view that the event of his killing was notable and deserves a separate page. But I do also respect the views of those on both sides who have much more experience than myself in handling controversial topics in this domain. --Calthinus (talk) 01:27, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

counterexamples always exist, but we routinely redirect even victims like Taylor Force - who would pass the WP:10 year test due to the Taylor Force Act - to the article on the event.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:07, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heather D. Heyer will be of interest to editors here.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:52, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.