Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 September 20

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September 20

Punctuation

Of the following salutations which is correct:

Hi, John, -or- Hi John,

I'd say the former. Kuronue | Talk 01:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that it depends on the context. If you are presenting a dialogue or exchange in writing, then "Hi, John," would be the correct way to punctuate it. On the other hand, if you are addressing John informally (for example, by starting an e-mail message), then I think that "Hi John," is fine. Marco polo 01:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

"Hi John:" would, in fact, be the correct formal (read: 'closed') American salutation, with the closing utilising a comma instead of a colon. Open punctuation would simply use "Hi John" -- with the closing using no punctuation, either. I'm Australian and use the latter style; I'm not aware of a formal standard that uses the "Hi John," form of salutation, I assume it's an informal punctuation style, or perhaps even a bastardisation. Wilymage 02:24, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

What is the IPA for Joe Sakic ?

Joe Sakic

The article gives his name as Joseph Steven Šakić, but it doesn't contain any IPA translation or a pronunciation guide, as articles with Slavic-language (Croatian, in this case) subjects usually do. In North America, his surname is pronounced as Sak - ick, which isn't even particularly close to correct.

For the benefit of the Wikipedia article, what is the IPA for this hockey player? -- Guroadrunner 03:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

It's pronounced SACK-ick in the media, but it would be IPA: [ʃa kiʨ] (I believe) in IPA. -- Flyguy649 ^talk _contribs 03:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

My reference agrees. (Beat me to it!) Bernard Comrie: "Adaptations of the Cyrillic Alphabet" in The World's Writing Systems edited by Peter T. Daniels and William Bright (Oxford 1996). —Tamfang 04:10, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

With foreign names used by second (or more) generation immigrants, it is important to take into account that the pronunciation might have been Anglicised. Although the native pronunciation should be [ʃakʰitɕ], it is quite likely that Sakic himself pronounces it [sakʰɪk]. Steewi 05:18, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

But I can't find a reference for "Šakić"? It might as well be "Sakić" in the "original", and the latter is how Serbian (and probably Croatian as well) media refer to him (IIRC). Ah, no, it is "Š" indeed ([1]). But it is likely that he pronounces it with [ik] himself. Duja► 09:08, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

how's your father

how on earth did "How's your father?" become a euphemism for sex? I have theories, but if anyone can point me towards some sort of history of the term... Kuronue | Talk 05:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

It originated as a catchphrase of music-hall comedian Harry Tate - he would use it to change the subject whenever he didn't know the answer to a question or the subject matter of the discussion was getting uncomfortable. Eventually the phrase became a placeholder name for something that the speaker couldn't remember the name of, or which couldn't be mentioned in polite conversation. Its fixed meaning as a euphemism for (illicit) sex was probably cemented by its use in the Carry On films. FiggyBee 10:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah! Very helpful! Thanks. Kuronue | Talk 22:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

There's a Monty Python skit where an RAF pilot returns from a mission and finds that none of his comrades understand his slang banter. One of the phrases was how's your father and it sure didn't seem sexy at the time. We learn something every day! —Tamfang 00:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Found it, in episode 42. Bally Jerry pranged his kite right in the how's your father. Hairy blighter, dicky-birdied, feathered back on his Sammy, took a waspy, flipped over on his Betty Harper's and caught his can in the Bertie. —Tamfang 01:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

In context, the Monty Python sketch seems to use "how's your father" as a greeting: "right in the how's your father" would thus mean "right at the time when the two planes engaged each other in combat". SrAtoz (talk) 04:03, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

As a native speaker of US English who found this utterly unfamiliar, I take it all of the above is exclusively British (the people who brought us "nudge-nudge, wink-wink...")? -- Deborahjay 11:01, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, although Kuronue is American so the phrase must have at least some penetration (ooh er) over there. FiggyBee 00:13, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Choose Between Two Words

Can anyone clear up this language nuance for me? What -- if any -- are the differences between the word "day" and "date"? Or are they completely interchangeable? How would the following sentences be filled in and why? Does the writer have an option to select either word ... or is one of the terms correct while the other is incorrect? And why? Thanks.

Consider a family:

• Dad born January 1, 1950
• Mom born January 1, 1950
• Child born January 1, 2000

(1) Dad and Mom were born on the same _____. (day / date)

(2) Dad and Mom share the same birth_____.

(3) Dad and Child were born on the same _____.

(4) Dad and Child share the same birth_____.

(5) Dad and Mom were born on the same _____ and in the same year.

(6) Dad and Child were born on the same _____ but in different years.

Also, (somewhat related to the above):

(7) December 7, 2007 is the _____ that we commemorate the attack on Pearl Harbor.

(8) December 7, 1941 was the _____ that Pearl Harbor was attacked.

Also, finally ...

(9) Does one of these terms (day or date) principally refer to the physical 24-hour period of time that occurs in life (such as the one in 1941 when Pearl Harbor was attacked)?

(10) And does one of these terms (day or date) principally refer to the calendar marking / written notation that represents that physical 24-hour period of time (i.e., when I type the characters of the alphabet "December 7, 1941" on my computer)? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro 06:56, 20 September 2007 (UTC))

Date derives from Latin dare ("to give"). It's said that (really?) the ancient Rome ended their letter with the word datus ("given" [to the messenger]) and the day and month of their writing it. The etymology may help you tell date from day. By the way, we actually have the article calendar date. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 08:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

O, and also day.--K.C. Tang 08:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The answer will depend on who you ask. I'm a fifty-something American. My take is:

1. Either. I would choose one over the other according to context, "day" to emphasize the coincidence, and "date" as a matter of fact, for instance.
2. "Day" is impossible because we have the single word "birthday". But if you mean "birth date" vs. "birthday", then either. The first includes the year, and the second does not. Incidentally, "the same" is redundant with "share"; they "share a birth date/birthday" or "have the same birth date/birthday".
3. "Date" only; "day" is false. But "date" would have to be used very, very loosely if used alone, and we only get away with it because everybody knows that the time machine hasn't been invented yet. We like to be concise, but we can't this time: "Father and child were born on the same day of the same month." ("Dad and Child" doesn't really work, by the way.)
4. Neither (see 2). But "birthday" makes a true statement, and "birth date" does not.
5. I guess you hear "day" there more than "date", since "day" is often construed as "day of the month", and "date" almost (but not quite unavoidably) automatically includes the year. There is a lot of crossover in this example. Your listener does need to be reassured that you mean "the same day" literally, and not just "the same birthday", because when you're talking about dates of birth, birthdays come to mind.
6. Fuzzy either way. I would expect to hear "day and month", but if you held a gun to my head, I guess I'd say "day".
7. "Day", because it's an anniversary and a holiday of sorts. But lose "that": "December 7, 2007 is the day we commemorate the attack on Pearl Harbor."
8. "Day". This seems more a matter of idiom than sense. "Date" is better (FDR liked it, too), but I want "date on which" instead of "date that".
9. "Day".
10. "Date".

I hope this helps, but I always doubt it. Native speakers gain their facility with conundrums like this one through a complex process that they (me included) don't ever think about unless they're linguists or are asked by an ESLer. So the above could be, through no fault of my own, a pack of lies. --Milkbreath 11:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Use of into/in to

Is there a rule that governs the use of into and in to? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.187.65.34 (talk) 19:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Into is a single preposition, while in to is an adverb followed by a preposition. The distinction is made clear by the two following sentences:

(1) I took the cake in to my mother.
(2) I shoved the cake into my mother.

In (1), in is an adverb indicating the direction of the verb took, while to is a preposition governing the indirect object my mother. In (2), into is a preposition indicating the goal of the verb shoved. —Angr 19:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Thus, the first sentence means something like "I took the cake in(side the house) to my mother" versus the second meaning "I shoved the cake into my mother('s mouth/stomach)". (sorry to hijack, I was confused upon reading it myself for a second and figured some clarification might be nice)Kuronue | Talk 22:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Just use "knife" instead of "cake." It's gruesome, but perhaps more clear. --LarryMac | Talk 11:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

"Cake" is funnier, though. —Angr 11:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

While you are at it, you could change 'mother' to 'mother-in-law' to make it more plausible and satisfying contextually. --Manga 23:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

i need your answers...

provide two satndard definition of syntax and discuss their silent wordings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.219.194.59 (talk) 19:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Please could you tell us the context of your question, so we can try to give you a sensible answer. SaundersW 20:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

In the meantime here are a few definitions of syntax: [2], [3], [4] SaundersW 20:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

You might also like to study the difference between a command and a question.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd bet the house that what we're seeing is an essay question from our friend's ESL teacher. The mysterious "silent wordings" are likely an invention of that teacher's. --Milkbreath 10:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Japanese Wikipedia

Is it written with the kanji set? If that's the case I'll have to accept I'll never be able to read it. --Taraborn 21:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The Japanese writing system uses a combination of kanji characters (of Chinese origin) and two syllabaries: hiragana and katakana. The Japanese Wikipedia does indeed use the Japanese writing system, including kanji.  --Lambiam 22:03, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

(ec)It is; however, you can learn to read kanji, many people do, it'd just take a while (though so does learning Japanese grammer and sentence structure). I can tell just by looking at the main www.wikipedia.com - I can read two of those kanji, ni and hon, but not the one for go just yet, since I only know about 25 or so. Kuronue | Talk 22:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

There are browser plugins, such as the Firefox Hanzi Toolbar, that translate kanji and Chinese characters for you as you read. -- Mwalcoff 23:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)