Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 June 3

Language desk
< June 2	<< May | June | Jul >>	June 4 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

June 3

What does Como una flor que necesita el aqua Sin tu amor se marchita mi alma mean in Spanish?

What does Como una flor que necesita el aqua Sin tu amor se marchita mi alma mean in Spanish Neptunekh2 (talk) 04:48, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Is the meaning not clear enough from (for example) Google's translation tool? -- Hoary (talk) 04:56, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

You get better results if you spell agua correctly: "Like a flower needs the rain Without your love my soul withers". —Angr (talk) 05:00, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Not to quibble, but "Like a flower that needs water..." Marco polo (talk) 14:32, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I was going by what Google Translate provided. I was rather surprised it chose "rain" rather than "water" myself, but I do think "rain" sounds better, more poetic, in English. —Angr (talk) 19:20, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

The word order in Spanish comes largely, I think, from matching "agua" with "alma"; in English you might do something similar with "water[s]" and "wither[s]". You can also juggle sense, syntax and euphony in choosing "As" or "Like" for "Como". [In fact, I seem to recall the lines "Like a flower needs the rain/You know I need you..." from a 1960's or early 1970's pop song in English.] —— Shakescene (talk) 20:34, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

"I Need You" by Bread, to be precise. --TammyMoet (talk) 21:29, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Pitman shorthand

I first learnt Pitman shorthand (New Era version) nearly 30 years ago, to a decent enough standard and used it for work. However, I haven't used it for about 20 years. Now I find myself in a position where it would be useful. Can anyone recommend any British English sites where I could brush up on my shorthand, and where I could find outlines/short forms for modern stuff such as computer speak, modern office stuff? --TammyMoet (talk) 12:35, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Pitman shorthand#External links has a link to http://www.long-live-pitmans-shorthand.org.uk/.

—Wavelength (talk) 15:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Wavelength. I was aware of this site, and it has its uses, but what would be really good is a site with sound files and their shorthand versions, so I can take the dictation and then check my outlines against their versions. Does anyone know of such a site? --TammyMoet (talk) 15:28, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Lower case titles / upper case titles

(I originally posted this on the main Help Desk, but was referred here) I came across an article which is full of lower case titles. Shepherds' Crusade (1251) This is some of the text, taken from the Dispersal section: "Some of them went to Rouen, where they expelled the archbishop and threw some priests into the Seine river. In Tours they attacked monasteries. The others under the Master arrived in Orléans on June 11. Here they were denounced by the bishop...." Heaps of lower case titles! I think that "archbishop" should have a capital A, since it refers to a particular archbishop. Similarly, the "bishop" refers to a particular bishop, so a capital B is required. Am I right? Boscaswell (talk) 13:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

No; see WP:Job titles. Deor (talk) 13:38, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

It is the same as if you wrote "Here they were denounced by the sales clerk." Just as you wouldn't capitalize sales clerk, so you don't capitalize bishop. The only cases in which bishop would be capitalized are the following: 1) When the title is part of a proper name: "Here they were denounced by Bishop Pomposus." 2) When bishop is used as a form of address in place of a name: "What is your opinion on this matter, Bishop?" Marco polo (talk) 14:38, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

But I do think "river" in "Seine river" should be capitalised - ...threw some priests into the Seine River. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 21:45, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I understand. I still think they look a bit weird, but that's just me. Boscaswell (talk) 22:26, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Just being picky, but we English folk usually say "River Seine" rather than "Seine River" which sounds a bit odd to me. Alansplodge (talk) 23:22, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

And Americans just say "the Seine", assuming everyone knows it's a river. —Angr (talk) 07:26, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

The word Seine is not to be confused with the word seine.—Wavelength (talk) 15:09, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Swedish Wikipedia / admin who speaks English

Hi. I'm having trouble negotiating Swedish Wikipedia pages, probably because of the way my machine is rendering the non-standard characters. If someone could help me find an active Swedish Wikipedia admin who speaks a decent level of English (that's probably most of them), I'd be most grateful. --Dweller (talk) 13:44, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Try sv:Användare:Tanzania, (s)he's active on en.wiki as well. - filelakeshoe 14:50, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, that's brilliant. --Dweller (talk) 15:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Turkish neologisms

Fascinated by this data--am a Turkophile Englishman with reasonable knowledge of the language. Was just browsing when I saws the new words you give for "lazy". I had thought that "tembel" was the best modern usage, and was surprised not to find it in your list. Am I wrong? 86.185.103.108 (talk) 16:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Can you provide a link to the list you're talking about? As far as I can tell, we don't have a List of Turkish words for "lazy". —Angr (talk) 16:29, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry not to have been explicit. Am still learning my way round system. This is the route I took: Wikipedia;Turkish language; History; Language reform; List of replaced loan words; 4-1; miskin;uyuşuk and mıymıntı. Very impressed by speed of your response! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.185.103.108 (talk) 16:58, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay, thanks! The best place to ask this question is at Talk:List of replaced loanwords in Turkish, which is where improvements to that page can be discussed. The people involved in editing that page are more likely to see your question there than here. —Angr (talk) 17:22, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.185.103.108 (talk) 14:03, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

"a part" vs. "part"

Someone please tell me the differences between these two: For example, what's the difference between "LeBron James is the major part of the team" and "LeBron James is major part of the team". I searched it on Google but couldn't find appropriate answer. TGilmour (talk) 17:08, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

The second sentence is ungrammatical. 86.160.217.252 (talk) 17:49, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

OK, then "part of the cake" vs. "the part of the cake" TGilmour (talk) 18:05, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

See Article (grammar). "Part of the cake" by itself can refer to any part of the cake. "The part of the cake" refers to a specific part of the cake, which must be further defined earlier or later in the same utterance or text. For example, you can't say "The part of the cake went to Sasha." You have to say "Part of the cake went to Sasha," since there is no further information on which part of the cake went to Sasha. However, you could say "The part of the cake that no one else wanted went to Sasha." Marco polo (talk) 18:19, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Could it be that "part" is optionally a mass noun? "Half" seems to work the same way: "this is half of the cake", "this is a half of the cake". "This is quarter of the cake" sounds less correct, and "this is ninth of the cake" sounds totally wrong, probably because of confusion with ordinal numbers. I notice those behave similarly: "I was third" seems the identical to "I was the third". I don't know what's going on there. It might be because there can only be one third item, and no ambiguity is possible: similarly, "Charles the Bald was Holy Roman Emperor" but not "Sartre was philosopher".  Card Zero  (talk) 04:55, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Re Card Zero: No, it's not a mass/count issue. In your examples ("this is half of the cake" vs. "this is a half of the cake"), in the first sentence half is being used as a measure word, whereas in the second sentence it is being used as a noun. In other words, in the first sentence what's important is "this is ... cake", and the "half" is modifying "cake"; in the second, what's important is "this is a half of something", and "cake" is modifying "half". rʨanaɢ (talk) 05:25, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

While all the above responses are good, I think they might be missing the point a little. TGilmour, did you mean to ask the difference between "LeBron James is a major part of the team," and "LeBron James is the major part of the team?" If that's the case, it's a matter of emphasis or degree. "A major part" means that out of a number of players who contribute to the team, LeBron James is very important, maybe or maybe not the most important. "The major part" means that LeBron James is definitely the most important player, possibly so important that the team couldn't function without him. --some jerk on the Internet (talk) 17:32, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Etymology of two Japanese names?

Hello - Any chance that anyone could help me out here? I'm looking for an etymology or translation of the following two Japanese names/surnames/place names: Mizuho and Shirase. Any ideas / pointers in the right direction? Thanks. --Brasswatchman (talk) 22:51, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Based on the kanji, I'd guess Mizuho (瑞穂) literally means something like "good (rice) harvest", and Shirase (白瀬) means "white rapids". 86.160.217.252 (talk) 00:53, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

The meaning of Mizuho is fresh ears of rice and it is a classical name of Japan found in the volume 1 of Nihon Shoki. See Names of Japan#Classical flowery names and s:zh:日本書紀/卷第一 or Section Four, Version Two. I have no idea about Shirase. Oda Mari (talk) 05:51, 5 June 2011 (UTC)