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This is a collection of discussions on the deletion of articles related to Sportspeople. It is one of many deletion lists coordinated by WikiProject Deletion sorting. Anyone can help maintain the list on this page.

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Sportspeople

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The result was delete‎. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cristian Cîrlan

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Not to be confused with the Romanian former vice-president of Steaua who died in 2020 at the age of 47. The Moldovan footballer's article is cited only to database sources and my own searches yielded IPN, Moldova Sports and FMF, none of which are examples of WP:SIGCOV. PROD was contested in 2014 due to the subject playing a few games in the Moldovan league. WP:SPORTBASIC now supersedes that. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 12:42, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Not enough of a history re: appearances to supersede the lack of WP:SIGCOV. Anwegmann (talk) 16:53, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this. I've calculated he's had about 9 games worth of game time in one of the more poorly covered of the European professional leagues. I would say that it's unlikely that significant offline coverage exists. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 16:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete – Per all above. Svartner (talk) 08:20, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 12:32, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. ✗plicit 12:06, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pyae Sone Naing

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Played at youth level for Myanmar but I can't find any WP:SIGCOV or even enough for WP:SPORTBASIC #5. I found Duwun, which was the best Burmese coverage in my searches. English-language coverage was limited to trivial mentions in ASEAN Football, FAS and Jakarta Globe. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:37, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per nom. Fails both WP:SIGCOV and WP:SPORTBASIC. Anwegmann (talk) 16:52, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 12:31, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. ✗plicit 01:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yüksel Yılmaz

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Tagged since 2022, appears to be an autobiography created by a SPA on both trwiki and here. Also tagged there. Fails WP:GNG as far as I can tell. Tehonk (talk) 01:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: I am appalled that this article has existed for over a decade without getting deleted. I can't find any WP:SIGCOV. Most of the sources in the article are not independent from the subject. Aintabli (talk) 13:46, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nomination. BottleOfChocolateMilk (talk) 20:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Subject doesn't pass notability guidelines. Failed WP:AUTHOR.
Yolandagonzales (talk) 17:13, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:04, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cha Dong-hoon

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Played in just one professional game before disappearing. Searching in Korean and Japanese, I was only able to find FC Gifu, which is not an independent source, and a bunch of database sources. I can't find anything that would meet WP:SPORTBASIC #5. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 00:48, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Doesn't seem to meet WP:SPORTBASIC, much less WP:SIGCOV. Anwegmann (talk) 03:06, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – Fails in WP:GNG. Svartner (talk) 05:05, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nomination; Korean Wikipedia is also a stub. CuteDolphin712 (talk) 15:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 12:31, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:04, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jesús Silva

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Doesn't seem to pass WP:GNG or WP:SPORTBASIC. All I can find are trivial mentions in TUDN and SN Digital. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 00:15, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Playing for a reserve team at the age of 31 and no WP:SIGCOV falls well short of WP:GNG and WP:SPORTSBASIC, as nom suggests. Anwegmann (talk) 00:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – Fails in WP:GNG. Svartner (talk) 05:05, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 12:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – Article is an unsourced stub. The term "Jesús Silva" on search engines find other men of the same name instead of this Mexican soccer player, failing WP:V too. Moreover, I even tried searching his full name and ended up finding nothing. CuteDolphin712 (talk) 13:08, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – per no evidence of notability and fails GNG. Grahaml35 (talk) 13:34, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Sandstein 19:38, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ernesto González (footballer)

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Badly sourced BLP. My own searches yielded a passing mention in Noroeste and the usual database sources like BeSoccer and Soccerway. He has an extremely common name so there might be WP:SIGCOV out there somewhere but I'm really struggling and this article has been in a dreadful state since 2016 so an AfD is overdue. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per nom. Search yielded little that would come close to WP:SIGCOV, bordering on failing WP:SPORTSBASIC. Anwegmann (talk) 00:53, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – Fails in WP:GNG. Svartner (talk) 05:05, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 12:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete ' - Per nom, article is scant to the point of empty :MiniMayor98 (talk) 14:29, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom --Devoke water 12:07, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Owen× ☎ 22:45, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gerardo Hernández

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Played for a brief time in the second tier of Mexico before hanging up his boots. I can't find anything better than his Transfermarkt profile and a bunch of hits about the unrelated Illian Hernández. No sign of WP:SPORTBASIC. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:20, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Nothing in this article to judge. Open and shut in my view. Fails WP:GNG and WP:SIGCOV by miles. Anwegmann (talk) 00:51, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – Fails in WP:GNG. Svartner (talk) 05:05, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nomination. The keyword "Gerardo Hernández" on internet finds other men of the same name instead of this Mexican soccer player, failing WP:V too. CuteDolphin712 (talk) 14:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 12:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Somnath Khara

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Soccerway stub on a footballer that played two matches before disappearing. My own searches yielded nothing better than Telegraph India, which mentions him in the title and an image caption but only once in the main article prose (so it's not WP:SIGCOV), and TOI, another match report that mentions him, this time his performance wasn't so good and the article mentions some mistakes he made but doesn't go into any depth about him as an individual. From the second article, we can perhaps make a presumption as to why his career was so short (although this would be WP:OR) but having a bad game, on its own, is not enough for WP:SPORTBASIC or WP:GNG and I don't see any actual direct significant coverage of Khara. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 11:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. Per nom. One poor source with stats and no coverage on the subject. Fails notability and WP:BIO. RangersRus (talk) 15:01, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 17:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Agree with above—one poor source, no other coverage, and no trackable stats over a four-year career certainly fails WP:GNG. Anwegmann (talk) 00:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – Fails in WP:GNG. Svartner (talk) 05:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom --Devoke water 21:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:36, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Martin Brown (fighter)

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Subject fails WP:GNG, WP:NMMA and WP:NBOX. Not having WP:SIGCOV from WP:IS, WP:RS where by the subject is talk about i length and in dept and not passing mentioned for WP:V. Sources talking about announcements and results of fights are considered routing report and can not be contribute to the subject notability. Cassiopeia talk 23:04, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: no coverage other than autogenerated/boilerplate profiles.Hi! (talk) 10:04, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete He's never been close to being ranked in the world top 10 for MMA, which is what WP:NMMA requires. Appearing in multiple databases and an article on one of his fights does not constitute significant independent coverage. I found nothing that shows he meets WP:GNG or WP:ANYBIO or any SNG. Papaursa (talk) 18:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Sourcing I find is largely match reports. What's used isn't enough for notability. This is typical of what I find [1]. Oaktree b (talk) 21:47, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete fails WP:GNG, WP:NMMA and WP:NBOX.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 20:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep‎. Owen× ☎ 19:28, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Václav Sršeň

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fails WP:GNG Joeykai (talk) 18:43, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep. The page needs to be rewritten, not deleted. Cswiki lists literature from which to draw so reliable sources exist. FromCzech (talk) 20:42, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. His career was a lot longer than the article lets on, 16 years. Geschichte (talk) 20:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I have added a second source which confirms he played over 200 top-level matches in Czechoslovakia in a career spanning from 1942 to 1958. C 679 06:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep per sources above which show notability. Giant Snowman 17:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per sources above.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 18:34, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Seems obvious given the source provided above and the numerous substantial sources in the article. Not sure why this one was tagged. Anwegmann (talk) 00:48, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - He has an international cap therefore he is undoubtedly notable. IJA (talk) 10:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That statement is not supported by our notability guidelines at Wikipedia:Notability (sports). Robby.is.on (talk) 09:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep Seems to have something there, but without knowing whats in the books etc, it's hard to determine. But based on the amount of football he played, I wouldn't be surprised if there are other sources out there. Govvy (talk) 09:12, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep. The book sources, which we cannot access, appear to have a good chance of being significant coverage. Considering the subject (200+ top-level matches, national team member), I'd lean towards keeping. BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:36, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Star Mississippi 15:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ben Numbi

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fails WP:GNG Joeykai (talk) 15:20, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete, we are past the times when 1 game in the USL Championship = an article. Geschichte (talk) 20:45, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 17:34, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete One professional appearance in a five-year career clearly fails WP:GNG. Also fails WP:SIGCOV. Anwegmann (talk) 00:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – Fails in WP:GNG. Svartner (talk) 05:06, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Owen× ☎ 19:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Herbert Robinson (footballer)

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fails WP:GNG Joeykai (talk) 15:18, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 17:34, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Had a reasonable career in the Mexican second and third divisions but hasn't played, it seems, in four years. Definitely fails WP:GNG on that note. Anwegmann (talk) 00:45, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep‎. I'm closing this as Keep on the basis of editors arguing that GNG is met by the new sources. As AFD regulars know, "international caps" are no longer a sign of notability and haven't been for several years now. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:23, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

David Molina

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fails WP:GNG Joeykai (talk) 03:59, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 15:28, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep A century of caps for one of the most successful teams in the Honduran top flight over an eight-year-old career makes him notable and significant, at least locally. Here are two substantial sources: [2] and [3]. Anwegmann (talk) 04:13, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Appears to be an important figure for F.C. Motagua, winning titles with them, there are probably more local sources for him. But the article certainly isn't the best, needs a lot to be added too it. Govvy (talk) 08:02, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep – The article needs improvement, but it doesn't fail WP:GNG. Svartner (talk) 03:01, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - He has international caps therefore he is undoubtedly notable. IJA (talk) 10:39, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@IJA: That statement is not supported by our notability guidelines at Wikipedia:Notability (sports). Robby.is.on (talk) 11:30, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Fails WP:GNG and WP:SPORTCRIT. If editors disagree, please ping me with two or three sources that you believe contributes to WP:GNG. BilledMammal (talk) 11:24, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BilledMammal: Anwegmann linked "two substantial sources". Robby.is.on (talk) 11:31, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He linked one source, as articles from the same media outlet are not independent of each other. We need more than that to meet GNG. JoelleJay (talk) 19:34, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[4] is another brief profile. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 03:45, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I've expanded the article with the three sources that have been mentioned here plus a fourth one. I think the article's okay now though it could be more detailed. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:27, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep. I think the El Heraldo and Diez pieces are decent enough for GNG considering the subject. BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:34, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect‎ to Rowing at the 1968 Summer Olympics – Men's coxed pair. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:07, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ștefan Tarasov

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Fails WP:NOLY or any other pertinent category, came 9th in only race participated in. Sincerely, Guessitsavis (she/they) (Talk) 14:02, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Tarasov competed at at least four World Championship rowing tournaments in addition to the Olympics, including a top-5 finish at the 1967 champs [5].

Proposed WP:ATD: Redirect to Rowing at the 1968 Summer Olympics – Men's coxed pair, so as to preserve the page history. --Habst (talk) 15:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 14:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Rowing at the 1968 Summer Olympics – Men's coxed pair, as per WP:ATD. Ingratis (talk) 13:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. ✗plicit 14:27, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cem Sevim

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Fails WP:GNG. A WP:BEFORE didn't even find database entries. Robby.is.on (talk) 14:10, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 15:28, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Obvious lack of WP:SIGCOV. Anwegmann (talk) 04:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no notability. Tehonk (talk) 01:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – Fails in WP:GNG. Svartner (talk) 05:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Found nothing here. Per nominator, the article fails WP:GNG & WP: SPORTSBASIC S! All the Best! Otuọcha (talk) 00:38, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Carlos Jerónimo

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fails WP:GNG Joeykai (talk) 22:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete– Per nom. Svartner (talk) 07:28, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 15:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No WP:SIGCOV and very bad article to boot. Anwegmann (talk) 04:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: The subject fails WP: SPORTSBASIC. Unreferenced have prompt to Google news search and nothing was found including the low football stats to confer a bit qualification per WP: NFOOTBALL wasn't found. Fails WP:SIGCOV and were found in databases! All the Best! Otuọcha (talk) 00:36, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom Devoke water 11:59, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Nothing online other than basic sports database logs, not Significant Coverage 🍪 CookieMonster 15:46, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:24, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Iñaki Quintana

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fails WP:GNG Joeykai (talk) 22:32, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete simply being a footballer is not enough to be notable. OsmiumGuard (talk) 22:42, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – Per nom. Svartner (talk) 07:28, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 15:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No WP:SIGCOV and a very bad article to boot. Anwegmann (talk) 04:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – The Spanish Wikipedia article of this person has been deleted in 2015 due to lack of encyclopedic relevance. However, I'm not sure what kind of person was he. Under the name "Iñaki Quintana", search engines mostly find other men with this name instead of the Mexican soccer player, failing WP:V. CuteDolphin712 (talk) 15:20, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom --Devoke water 12:03, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Sources I could locate on the internet refer to a different person of the same name 🍪 CookieMonster 15:45, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Owen× ☎ 19:31, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chamod Dilshan

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I believe the subject fails to meet GNG. This footballer played some international games but I cannot find any significant coverage of his life or career. MarchOfTheGreyhounds 19:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. Fails WP:GNG due to a lack of WP:SIGCOV. A Google search only has WP:ROUTINE player profiles and unrelated info about other men with the same name. Willing to reconsider if significant coverage is found, so please ping me. Frank Anchor 19:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – Per nom. Svartner (talk) 07:28, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 15:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Fails WP:SIGCOV, but I sincerely believe that senior national team caps should count toward notability. Anwegmann (talk) 04:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect‎ to Bhutan national football team#Coaching history. (non-admin closure) 🍪 CookieMonster 15:27, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Henk Walk

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Playing football for a national team doesn't give automatic notability, so neither does coaching. This manager is covered in passing mentions only, failing the WP:SIGCOV guideline. No lasting impact on Bhutan whatsoever, so fails WP:SUSTAINED (as well as informal essays such as WP:IMPACT/WP:10YT). I can't find anything else about him; not his age, where he is from, if he was a player himself, other managerial jobs etc. Simply put, Henk Walk is not biography material and being a name in a list at Bhutan national football team#Coaching history should suffice. Geschichte (talk) 15:19, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Agree coverage is extremely scarce. Also being manager of a very small football country (Bhutans highest ever Fifa ranking was 159/211 not even during Walk's tenure which lasted for a single year, without any spectacular scores. I agree what is shown now does not suffice for notability. Arnoutf (talk) 21:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Redirect as above. Giant Snowman 15:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Bhutan national football team#Coaching history. Dutch amateur coach (I did find passing mentions), who was the manager of the Bhutan national team. This appointment was definately the high point of Walk's career. Sufficient for a redirect. To keep we would need more than passing mentions. gidonb (talk) 22:28, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect Success of the team should not have bearing here. Anwegmann (talk) 04:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Success does of course have bearing on match attendance, fan following and by extension media following, i.e. significant coverage. Geschichte (talk) 22:52, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect‎ to List of Gillingham F.C. players (1–24 appearances). (non-admin closure) 🍪 CookieMonster 15:25, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Wilson (footballer, born 1977)

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I can't see this biography meeting the WP:SIGCOV guideline. Obscure fourth-tier English footballer, so I wanted to redirect to List of Gillingham F.C. players (1–24 appearances), which was disputed. Found one sentence in a "where are they now" article. Geschichte (talk) 15:09, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Redirect as above. Giant Snowman 15:28, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect I agree. Anwegmann (talk) 04:04, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect seems best option -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:34, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:13, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shayamal Vallabhjee

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The available sources include passing mentions, interviews, and profiles, although some lack reliability. Notably, there's insufficient substantial coverage from reputable third-party sources that discuss the subject directly and in detail. Consequently, it fails to meet the criteria set forth in WP:GNG and WP:BIO. It's crucial to remember that notability isn't inherited, meaning that having notable clients doesn't automatically confer notability. GSS ^💬 04:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. Per nom. Fails notability and the sources are mostly unreliable that are blogs and another with error. Even personal life segment does not have any coverage from third party sources. It also fails WP:BIO. RangersRus (talk) 15:18, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Already PROD'd so not eligible for Soft Deletion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:23, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom and for the reasons that I stated in Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Alister_De_Bellotte. Doctors, coaches, and other staff on teams are not automatically notable. If they fail WP:SIGCOV, they fail WP:GNG. Bearian (talk) 15:59, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. ✗plicit 01:36, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kim Chung

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Article fails WP:GNG. Simione001 (talk) 01:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete – Fails in WP:GNG. Svartner (talk) 03:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 21:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delete I understand that this article fails WP:SIGCOV, but I sincerely believe that senior appearances for a national team that does not receive much or any coverage in reliable sources should count toward notability. Anwegmann (talk) 04:04, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No evidence of notability. Wikipedia has a serious problem with tiny unnotable microstubs of random athletes tbh. Prodraxis _(talk) 17:18, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete can't find any suggestion of notability --Devoke water 21:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Fails WP:GNG and really concur with Prodraxis. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:13, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus‎. Doczilla _{Ohhhhhh, no!} 11:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mariusz Latkowski

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Original nomination statement: I couldn't find any significant coverage of this bobsleigh athlete that would meet WP:NSPORT and WP:GNG. All news that came up in my searches are passing mentions (TVP Sport and Wrocław Naszemiasto), as well as silly, random namesakes. Corresponding article on Polish Wikipedia article has been tagged for not having sources except external links for 2010; no major edits since 2022. CuteDolphin712 (talk) 10:36, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Revised nomination statement as of 13 March 2024: Despite having achieved two medals, I couldn't find enough significant coverage of this bobsleigh athlete that would meet WP:NSPORT and WP:GNG. Everything that came up in my searches are brief mentions (TVP Sport and Wrocław Naszemiasto), as well as silly, random namesakes. Corresponding article on Polish Wikipedia article has been tagged for not having sources except external links for 14 years; no major edits since 2022. CuteDolphin712 (talk) 10:36, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment. Doesn't look very notable to me; won't be deleted from pl wiki where participation in Olympics grans notability, unlike here. Shrug. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, subject is a multiple-time international medallist in athletics and is covered by both Polish and English sources; see [6] for coverage in just one Polish newspaper. WP:ATD: Redirect to 1999 European Athletics Junior Championships where the athlete won his highest medal. --Habst (talk) 14:14, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note that the nomination statement was edited in Special:Diff/1213511699. It's fine to edit it, but I think it is fair to note the changes made in the discussion because the nomination is in part what we are responding to. --Habst (talk) 14:42, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hey man im josh (talk) 11:44, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 17:23, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question - Catch me if I'm wrong, but doesn't winning international medals automatically give a pass at AfD? Bearian (talk) 16:40, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Senior medals, maybe. These were underage medals, from competitions with dramatically less stadium attendance, TV time and overall media attention. However, a relatively small athletics meet might still generate more coverage than a relatively big competition in, say, canoeing Geschichte (talk) 17:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, because "automatic notability" doesn't exist as part of WP:NSPORT. It's a guideline that "significant coverage is likely to exist", but for some people meeting the criteria (which this one doesn't anyway), there may not be that coverage. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus‎. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2020/21 in 60 metres

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Wikipedia is not a statistics database. It seems entirely random to list the top 50 in a given event, with an international final only consisting of 8 or 9 competitors, whereas the wider field reaching as far down as top 50 are never talked about as an interconnected group. Why not top 25? Or top 100? Category:Year rankings in athletics is still a fledgling project, so it's time to nip it in the bud. Geschichte (talk) 21:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Strong keep, I completely agree with @Geschichte's comments above, however that isn't an argument for deletion. If we want to make the article only about the top 8 or top 25, then please edit the article to do that, and let's work on it together.

The top two or three 60 metres sprinters in any given year are very frequently talked about as a group, as the 60 metres is the marquee event of indoor athletics – by far the most popular and documented event as the shortest in all of athletics. It's also important because it's covered as a bellwether for the outdoor season, as proven by the fact that leading the 2021 60 m was arguably Marcel Jacobs' biggest accomplishment before winning the 2021 Olympic 100 m title later that year. Despite there being no World Athletics Indoor Championships in 2021, there was still a men's and women's European Championship, a NCAA Championship and an entire indoor World Tour that had many world class men's and women's 60 m races. Here are some relevant articles focusing on the 60m during that season:

"Women's 60 metres sprint in the spotlight in Karlsruhe". Watch Athletics. 28 Jan 2021. Retrieved 2024-03-12.
Sampaolo, Diego. "Third time lucky at European Indoors, Jacobs now turns his attention to outdoor world stage | FEATURE | World Athletics". worldathletics.org. Retrieved 2024-03-12.
Weir, Stuart (2021-03-07). "Alja Del Pointe takes the 60m in WL 7.03, equalling Swiss NR, 2021 European Indoor championships". runblogrun. Retrieved 2024-03-12.

Most importantly, Category:Year rankings in athletics articles serve an important structural need as they are linked to for context in Category:Events at athletics (track and field) competitions, for example see the link from "World Leading" at this page. They are also useful to be linked to in the "season's bests" sections of Category:Events in track and field articles.

Thanks, --Habst (talk) 00:17, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Reply Individual competitions being covered or Marcell Jacobs performing well do not lend relevance to a list of unrelated performers. This is a list and therefore the athletes in it have to be covered as a group, otherwise it fails WP:NOT. Habst provides no policy-based reason to keep the article, and instead showcases the same synthesizing reasoning as at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2015 World Youth Championships in Athletics – Boys' javelin throw: A medium wrote about the world ranking once, therefore Wikipedia must list a large portion of the world ranking. Geschichte (talk) 08:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Geschichte, I really appreciate and in fact agree with your arguments about the top 50 being unwarranted. But again, while that is a good reason for limiting the scope of the article that isn't a valid reason for deletion under P&G. None of the articles I linked mention world ranking, nor does this article; the world ranking is different than the event as a whole in that year.
Looking at WP:NOT, I think you're referring to WP:NOTCATALOG prong 2, which specifically carves out, Wikipedia also includes reference tables and tabular information for quick reference. WP:NOT doesn't say anything about lists having to be covered as a group (the word "group" only appears 4 times on that page in other contexts). I think the more relevant policy is WP:NLIST, which specifically says Lists that fulfill recognized informational, navigation, or development purposes often are kept regardless of any demonstrated notability, and I discussed the navigational/informational aids (in world lead lists and event lists) above. Thanks, --Habst (talk) 12:24, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Limiting the scope of the article". What article? There is no article here, just two statistical lists swiped from WA. WP:NOTSTATS applies, and as a list its informational purposes run afoul of WP:SYNTH. Yes, athletics fans understand them and can interpret them, which is why several statistic websites, including the article's only sources, provide year lists just fine. Geschichte (talk) 12:46, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Geschichte, I understand you're being sarcastic, but of course it is a list article because it contains a list. The fact that it's unexplained per WP:NOTSTATS means that we should explain it; this is only an argument for deletion if you think that it's impossible to reasonably explain the subject.

WP:SYNTH does not apply here, taking the two main points:
Does it combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source? No, the article doesn't reach any "conclusion" not stated by sources.

Does it combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source? No, same reasoning.

The important policy point here for WP:NLIST is the navigational and informational aid, as when someone goes to the 2021 European Athletics Indoor Championships – Men's 60 metres page, it's helpful to click the "world lead" button and see the landscape of the 60 metres in that year leading in to the competition.

Also, I think that your argument (which, to be fair, I fully agree with except for I don't think it is a reason for deletion) applies to all 72 pages in Category:Year rankings in athletics. Can you edit the nomination to include them all, so we won't have to re-hash this conversation 71 other times in the future? Thanks, --Habst (talk) 13:25, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ATD: Move to Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics/Tasks/Top 60 athletes (2020-2021) as the red-link lists are helpful for editors, similar to existing project-space pages like Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics/Tasks/Top 10 athletes (2015). --Habst (talk) 13:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Delete. This consists mainly of text lifted from another source, and as such it may violate copyright. In any case, why limit it to 2020/21? Are no more recent data available? Athel cb (talk) 10:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Athel cb, the reason why it is limited to 2020–21 is because the 60 metres international yearly circuit is primarily contested from December to March (i.e. overlapping two calendar years). For an overview of all years, you can just click on the 60 metres page but this is limited to just one season of competition. For example 2020–21 NFL playoffs is limited to just one season of the NFL Playoffs while NFL playoffs covers all seasons.

Understanding this, what do you think? Also, to address your copyright concerns, we can limit the list in size and make the article primarily about the international medalists that year, i.e. discuss this race, this race, this 60 m race, this one, and these 60 m races and make it less about just one list. Thanks, --Habst (talk) 16:23, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So far as your first paragraph is concerned, OK. So far as the second is concerned I think you need to do more to avoid copyright violation. Athel cb (talk) 16:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Athel cb, I don't want to derail the conversation too much but my understanding is that simple lists of sports results (in this case, names and times) without any element of creative curation (the times are simply listed from fastest to slowest with no advanced analysis done) is not copyrightable in the U.S., not falling into any of the categories here (source). FWIW, there is actually an identical list independently compiled on WP:Tilastopaja here so it's not like this data is unique to World Athletics. Simply Googling each name and time in quotes shows that most entries have associated news coverage about them, so it wouldn't be too difficult to add a cite for each row. Thanks, --Habst (talk) 17:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For example, there are large tables of information in articles like Athletics at the 2020 Summer Olympics – Men's decathlon, but I don't think the Wikipedia community considers this a copyright violation because it's simply a list of sporting results, as long as our prose-based analysis is not copied. --Habst (talk) 17:54, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Herald (Benison) (talk) 02:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist. Reviewing this discussion again, I don't see a consensus but I have some questions that were brought up by editors here. First, Top 60 does seem like an arbitrary cut-off point. But, as mentioned, this could be addressed through editing. And it does seem like Wikipedia has a variety of articles like this like Athletics at the 2020 Summer Olympics – Men's decathlon as mentioned so having an article with a table of sports results has an established place on the project. So, what I'm wondering is about this page move suggested, would editors arguing for Delete be okay if this content was moved to exist under the umbrella of a relevant WikiProject while the content was edited and improved? This would be with the caveat that the page couldn't just be moved back to main space. What do you think?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep – I perfectly understand the nomination and the problems that this list presents, but I consider that the 100m race (60m during the pandemic period) is the noblest in athletics, and a list of best times is not unnecessarily just a random list like in some sport with less notability. I see potential/logic in the article. Svartner (talk) 04:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete‎. Owen× ☎ 23:50, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shi Xing Mi

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Sources are basically self-sourced, no longer work with the domain being sold and excluded from Wayback ([7], or newspapers with only a date and no other information. I've searched and can find very little from reliable sources, although his real name did come up a couple of times but just with mentions that he was doing something somewhere. Palta isn't notable and the source doesn't say he's on the board. Not menioned in Shaolin kung fu. Since its creation by "Shaolininfo" it's been edited mainly by Swiss IPs, the latest emailing me to ask why I deleted her edits and saying that "I am the assistant of Master Shi Xing Mi (Walter Gjergja) ". Doug Weller talk 15:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Buddhism and Switzerland. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 19:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I'm not seeing significant independent coverage in reliable sources. Writing articles and teaching martial arts are insufficient to show WP notability. I will admit I made a weak keep vote in the original AfD discussion, but my knowledge of WP and its criteria have greatly changed in 13 years. Papaursa (talk) 21:09, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I've added a dozen additional sources ranging from international press (Forbes, New York Post, etc) to independent business sources (Crunchbase, The Org, etc) to large international companies (Palta Group, Zing AI Coach, etc) to independent official Shaolin Organisation (SEA, Culture Centers, etc).

I am a student of Master Shi Xing Mi and as I work in PR I help with some of his events; he has hundreds of independent sources and is by far the most famous and published non-Chinese Shaolin Master globally. 178.197.176.161 (talk) 14:16, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

— 178.197.176.161 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

You have also removed the AfD tag twice [8] [9] and that needs to stop. Removing the AfD tag won't end the AfD itself. ThaddeusSholto (talk) 14:18, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I thought that having added such a long list of independent sources, the notice no longer applied as it was indicating insufficient independent sources. My apologies. I trust now the article is correctly and amply sourced and hope you will be able to delete the notice. 178.197.176.161 (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You shouldn't be editing the article at all. Are you the editor who emailed me? Looks like you are as the email said among other things " Kate, I am the assistant of Master Shi Xing Mi (Walter Gjergja) and during the weekend I edited his page, but I noticed you reversed all edits indicating unsuitable citations.I cited and liked articles in Forbes and in CBS news, both clearly independent sources, as well as the appropriate Page within the Palta and Zing corporate websites"I know you've also used the IP address 178.197.185.16 as that added the Forbes source. One huge problem with this article is that it has been heavily edited by IP addresses from people clearly involved in some way with him.The New York Post is not considered a reliable source, nor are Forbes contributors. Doug Weller talk 15:58, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I just tried to help by providing additional sources.

If international media publications, institutions, and companies are not reliable sources, what are?

Frankly I looked at similar entries to understand better and they usually have a couple of websites including, nothing more (for example Shi De Yang, Shi Xing Mi’s own Master), so it would seem to me that 25 references ranging from Shaolin organizations to international companies to global press would be more than ample.

Just trying to help my Master to have a correct Wikipedia entry. 178.197.176.73 (talk) 06:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

— 178.197.176.73 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Comment A lot of sources have been added, but they're not really independent sources about him. Interviews, postings from companies he works for or organizations he founded, and ads for seminars he's running do not qualify as significant independent coverage about him. Instead of inundating the article with these types of sources, I'd like to see WP:THREE used to show us the best examples of coverage that would meet WP:GNG or WP:ANYBIO. Papaursa (talk) 19:32, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:36, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sources now include independent business databases (Crunchbase, The Org, etc) official Shaolin institutions (Shaolin Europe Association, various Culture Centers, etc) large international companies (Palta Group, Zing AI Coach, etc) and numerous press articles from the USA and Europe spanning two decades.

As there are hundreds of sources about Master Shi Xing Mi in Google, many others of course can be added if necessary or if more pertinent.

I didn’t understand the indication above that mentions by companies he works for are not suitable sources: to substantiate that someone has an important role in company X, isn’t company X officially indicating such role on their website the best possible confirmation? Those are large reputable companies with hundreds of employees.

Happy to help further of course, however to me seems already overloaded with sources. 178.197.185.240 (talk) 22:03, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

— 178.197.185.240 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

178.197.185.240, it's the quantity of the sources that matter. And you should probably review WP:RS as business databases are not considered reliable sources. Often all of the content has been submitted by the article subject so it is not verified or independent. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:09, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Non-RS and some PROMO for good measure. This is about all there is [10], which is a RS from Pakistan, see [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Pakistan/Pakistani_sources] I don't see enough for an article. Oaktree b (talk) 23:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just picked some recent articles which appeared when I searched in Google, he has hundreds of articles from all kinds of widespread newspapers, magazines, educational publications, etc spanning decades. The official shaolin associations and the large companies seemed the best sources to me, but I've added the press links as it was indicated insufficient sources. 212.31.113.3 (talk) 14:22, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've just done a quick search and in Google there are hundreds of articles, from Forbes, New York Post, Men's Health, Frankfurter Allgemaine, For Men, Outside Magazine, The Mirror, TedX, Corriere della Sera, etc etc, so I'm not sure why you'd highlight some Pakistani newspaper from dozens of international publications. 212.174.75.74 (talk) 14:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

— 212.31.113.3 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Papaursa (talk) 18:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Draftify‎. as an ATD. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:30, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yllson Lika

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Footballer who has played on the Finnish third tier. This not being professional by any means, the BLP needs strong sources to support the counter-intuitive claim that the player has significant coverage (as opposed to WP:ROUTINE/WP:MILL/local news). The two sources from Keski-Uusimaa.fi are paywalled, but look like a match report and a pre-match report respectively. Geschichte (talk) 16:51, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Draftify – As WP:ATD. The athlete is a youth national team player and could become notable in the medium term. Svartner (talk) 03:36, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 21:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Draftify until he makes an appearance and/or becomes a regular feature for the first team. I see this as WP:TOOSOON more than anything else. Anwegmann (talk) 04:02, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep‎. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Connor O'Brien (alpine skier)

AfDs for this article:

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Advertising or other spam without any relevant or encyclopedic content, Self-promotion

Speedy keep. Olympic athlete. SIGCOV per https://www.esbl.ee/biograafia/Connor+Olev+Martin_O'Brien --Estopedist1 (talk) 13:08, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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at 2020 olympics, 11,300 competitors participated, so wikipedia needs a page on each of them? Newtonewyork (talk) 13:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's the definition of trivial coverage. We need much more than that if you want to speedy keep this. Oaktree b (talk) 14:51, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Looks like there's enough coverage to me, especially noting that we have no Estonian sources from the time. The link above looks like an entry in some kind of Estonian sports biographical dictionary and it is well over 150 words despite being in an abbreviated language (SIGCOV). The article itself has a link to a New York Times feature story. There's also some coverage on Newspapers.com, such as the Kingston Whig-Herald and The Olympian; and there's also a story in The Gazette probably regarding him, with the name, dates and college matching up. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:10, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SPEEDY HARD DELETE - the NYT article doesn't even mention his name in the title, and if you read it, you can see that it's a current affairs minor tidbit. I am sure he's a agreat skier, but a wikipedia page? really?

Also if you read the wikipedia article itself as it stands, there's barely anything on the guy's actualy skying career... its all about his current day job Newtonewyork (talk) 19:04, 11 March 2024 (UTC) — Duplicate !vote: Newtonewyork (talk • contribs) has already cast a !vote above.[reply]
You do not get to !vote when you are already the nominator. That the New York Times article doesn't mention his name in the title is irrelevant; its a 1,200+ word piece in one of the world's most globally prominent papers focusing on him. All that matters for getting a Wikipedia article is that the person has in-depth coverage, something that this subject clearly satisfies. The potential issue of there being too much focus on a business career is an editing issue, not a deletion issue. BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you show where the in-depth coverage is? That article from 1994 is in-depth coverage?

Ok so anyone mentioned in a New York Times article deserves a wikipedia article?

Editing vs. Deleting: the fact that the article is all focused on his business career is simply to highlight that it surely is being used as a braggard-style cv to impress god-knows-who (but surely, family members, business associates and love interests), but clearly not the many many people interested in knowing who represented Estonia in skying at past Olympic Games. Newtonewyork (talk) 12:38, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And to be clear, wikipedia bots now don't even allow the trimming and condensing of Mr. O'Brien's copious irrelevant business addendums, so a deletion seems to be the only way to right the ship... see the editing history of the article. Newtonewyork (talk) 12:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you show the wikipedia policy stating that nominators do not get to vote?

I am sorry but since candidates in most democratic countries can vote in elections, I assumed I got a vote here as well.

Also I am not sure if this deletion is subject to a 'vote'

Finally, I suppose you don't mind if I remove the entire 'business career' section of our famous Estonian alpine skier? Newtonewyork (talk) 12:42, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Nomination already implies that the nominator recommends deletion ... nominators should refrain from repeating this." As for why you would remove the entire business career section, I'm not quite sure I see the purpose? Everything looks sourced? BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:57, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1- Because the business career section is irrelevant to the skying which is the only reason this article would stand in the first place., which of your sources discusses the business careers? Where in the NYT article, is any of the subsequent events deemed interesting enough to be covered?

2- Because the business career section strongly implies that the article in itself has other purposes than to inform curious folks about Estonia's past olympic participants. You understand what self-promotion means?

3 - Because the business career section is 90% of the article, and frankly, will all due respect, on its own, the business career section would never warrant an article. How can you argue with a straight face then that this article is about the skying?

4 - Because you - BeanieFan11 - argue that this deletion process should actually be an editing process, but somehow you don't want to indicate what part of the article should be 'edited'. Is it possible that some folks who feel that 90% of an article is irrelevant, could feel 'deletion' is a better solution.

5 - Because frankly, with all due respect to the subject of the article itself, the inclusion of the business career portion is an embarrassment because it implies such high insecurity that Mr. O'Brien's ego requires a massaged wikipedia article, a character trait which is not lost on anyone with a few gray hair. Hint: its a trait that's not particularly well perceived, or put another way, it's a flaw Newtonewyork (talk) 17:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep per entry at Eesti spordi biograafiline leksikon (ESBL) as well as an entry at Eesti Entsüklopeedia. Also found coverage at Eesti Elu and mentions in Postimees and Õhtuleht. ExRat (talk) 18:26, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep – per BeanieFan and ExRat. TLA^tlak 04:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect‎ to Lists of starting quarterbacks in the UFL now that said article has been created. History remains if there is material that still needs to be merged. It is unclear to this closer. Star Mississippi 02:04, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lists of starting quarterbacks in the XFL

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Subject does not meet the WP:LISTN as this is not a grouping discussed in secondary sources. I found some lists of the quarterbacks in the league, but not specifically for starting quarterbacks. Let'srun (talk) 21:09, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people, Sports, American football, and Lists. Let'srun (talk) 21:09, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also a courtesy ping to @BeanieFan11, who removed the initial PROD. Let'srun (talk) 21:10, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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@Let'srun: I found some lists of the quarterbacks in the league, but not specifically for starting quarterbacks. Care to share the lists you found? If there is sufficient sourcing to establish notability for a list of XFL quarterbacks, but not specifically the starting quarterbacks, then perhaps this could be a "keep and move" situation to something like List of XFL quarterbacks. Left guide (talk) 00:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found the same one you did. Let'srun (talk) 02:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll also note that, within the context of other articles about the league, that there is substantial information about starting quarterbacks' roles. Going back to 2020, there was a lot of reporting on starting QB salary being higher than other position players, which in and of itself establishes notability. I'll add that one to the article and others. J. Myrle Fuller (talk) 00:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: From what I can see, none of the sources in the current version of the article count towards the notability of the article topic, since they appear to discuss NFL quarterbacks (and to a lesser extent quarterbacks as a general concept), so the sources are supporting the article in a synthetic manner and the actual list is unsourced original research, but I found this source that specifically addresses XFL quarterbacks. Left guide (talk) 00:44, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete not enough specific coverage of starting quarterbacks at any point in time to justify a separate article. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:15, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: WP:Otherstuffexists as there's an article for Lists of starting quarterbacks in the USFL, List of starting quarterbacks in the National Football League and List of Super Bowl starting quarterbacks - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 00:09, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll note that the USFL article features nearly identical text to the one currently being discussed and is at substantial risk of a similar deletion nomination should the original nominee so choose. J. Myrle Fuller (talk) 23:52, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Other stuff exists is also part of Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions, it isn't a reason to keep this one. If anything, it's a reason to consider deleting some of those too (though NFL Superbowl starting QBs do get a lot of coverage, unlike QBs in this league). Joseph2302 (talk) 16:19, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By pointing out WP:OSE (which I will continue to do), I am not suggesting keep or delete. I am merely pointing it out for possible merge. Ignoring the existence of other articles seems irrational to me. We should be aware of everything relevant in the main space. Whether you want to merge, keep or delete is up to you. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 17:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as currently structured due to complete lack of sourcing, ergo no establishment of notability and possible listcruft. In theory, going through individual quarterbacks' articles alone, there is enough material and sourcing to justify a list article—but I would prefer, given the structure of the UFL, that if such sourcing is established, that it be merged into its USFL counterpart, given that it is a historical list (see also: Timeline of the XFL and USFL) and that now-defunct teams be included as Former USFL and XFL teams in a separate section. J. Myrle Fuller (talk) 23:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

- Comment I have made some revisions to the article to make the lede more relevant to the XFL in particular in hopes of establishing notability and withdraw my vote to delete. My suggestion to merge remains. J. Myrle Fuller (talk) 00:35, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Lists of starting quarterbacks in the UFL. Cards84664 01:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Lists of starting quarterbacks in the UFL. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 17:04, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. If we don't have sources for this group, it should not exist as a standalone list, nor should should it be merged elsewhere.

JoelleJay (talk) 20:43, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources have been added to establish notability so that issue has been addressed. J. Myrle Fuller (talk) 22:35, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where? I see sources for some individual entries, but nothing treating the list topic as a group. JoelleJay (talk) 23:25, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Individual articles discussing within the context of being a starting quarterback in the XFL/UFL. Individual articles discussing the relevance and importance of the position (especially in regard to salary). That crosses into GNG territory and no longer qualifies the topic for deletion.

If one must rise to the order of picking nits over subject focus of sources, it likely does not rise to the level where deletion would be warranted. That said, restructuring of the artlcle if/when the merger is proposed, I would like to see it trimmed to a comparable standard as the NFL starting quarterback in that the current/most recent example is the only one that needs to be listed, as there likely is nowhere near enough sourcing—at least anything rising beyond ROUTINE coverage—to warrant such listcruft. J. Myrle Fuller (talk) 23:46, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What you are describing is an article on the starting QB position in the XFL, not a list of them. To qualify for NLIST, that topic must have GNG coverage. JoelleJay (talk) 04:26, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@JoelleJay: There are these two sources treating XFL quarterbacks as a group, (one of which is referenced in this article) but I don't know if it's enough to establish notability. At a minimum, it should qualify for a merge though. Left guide (talk) 02:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The first of those is about XFL starting QBs as a position, not a list of individual QBs; in fact it only mentions one player. The second is not an independent source as ESPN has a broadcast contract with the XFL and therefore has a strong financial incentive to cover the league. The article is also not on starting QBs, so its coverage is irrelevant anyway. JoelleJay (talk) 04:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting as the discussion seems to be ongoing between those editors arguing for Delete and those advocating a Merge. I'll just add that I assume the proposed Merge target article is Lists of starting quarterbacks in the USFL as there is no article at Lists of starting quarterbacks in the UFL page title.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Liz: The XFL and USFL themselves are merging into a new UFL league, hence the intended merge target. Cards84664 16:44, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A new merge target has to be created first, regardless of the fact that the leagues have merged. I still oppose a merge since I don't see the sourcing needed to support it. Let'srun (talk) 19:06, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cards84664, I didn't say that the subject didn't exist, just that the article didn't exist. We can't merge this article into a nonexistent page. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Yes, UFL because USFL and XFL are merging next season (see United Football League (2024) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk • contribs) 17:24, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting for either delete or better merge target consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Herald (Benison) (talk) 03:46, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Why not just rename Lists of starting quarterbacks in the USFL to Lists of starting quarterbacks in the UFL and merge XFL to the new UFL article? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:52, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds too complicated for an AFD closure. That is something that can be handled if this article is Kept. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:52, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep with the intent of merging this and the USFL article together to form Lists of starting quarterbacks in the UFL. This can be done off AFD as descrbed above by Liz. Frank Anchor 20:00, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to redirect to the now-created Lists of starting quarterbacks in the UFL. It looks like the necessary content is already merged into the target, but anything else that would need merged can be pulled from the article history. Frank Anchor 14:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also applaud User:Cards84664 for WP:BOLDLY creating the UFL list and incorporating much of the content from the former XFL and USFL lists. Frank Anchor 14:14, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Close as moot - Merged to Lists of starting quarterbacks in the UFL. Cards84664 18:20, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cards84664: Such as move should not occur until this AfD is concluded. Let'srun (talk) 20:19, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cards84664 please do not redirect or move articles while an AFD discussion is still open. Consensus still has yet to be determined. Thanks for starting an article though. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:27, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Lists of starting quarterbacks in the UFL has now been created. Would a simple Redirect be appropriate or is there still content that needs to be Merged?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect - all content has been merged and updated. Cards84664 03:35, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cards84664, I realize that you think this, in part because you created the article, I would just like to hear opinions from other editors. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect per Cards84664. If the merged article does not meet GNG (or other guidelines) then that should go to AfD. Rlendog (talk) 12:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to the new UFL list. BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:37, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was soft delete‎. Based on minimal participation, this uncontroversial nomination is treated as an expired PROD (a.k.a. "soft deletion"). Editors can request the article's undeletion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:27, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Patrick Burgoyne

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Non-notable player. Fails WP:SPORTBASIC. J Mo 101 (talk) 22:44, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment only played club rugby in New Zealand so nothing notable to add from an NZ perspective. NealeWellington (talk) 08:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:22, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

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The result was delete‎. The recent RFC on athletes ties my hands, we have to abide by the guidelines it set and those editors arguing for Deletion have rejected the sources brought forward by those editors advocating Keep as being ROUTINE coverage. The new policy rules out even a "No consensus" closure. If an editor would like this article draftified or moved to their User space, let me know or put in a request at WP:REFUND Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:53, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hassan Houbeib

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Fails WP:GNG and lacks WP:SIGCOV. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 22:17, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Football, and Africa. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 22:17, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep A regular national team player who plays in a league that gets pretty much zero regular coverage. He has no chance of SIGCOV even though he is clearly notable for Mauritanian football. Anwegmann (talk) 22:41, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Zero regular coverage" and "no chance", you mean coverage in English, right? I wouldn't know how to conduct a meaningful search in his alphabet, but he featured at the 2023 Africa Cup of Nations just a month ago. Geschichte (talk) 08:51, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

His appearance at 2024 AFCON speaks to my point, I think. The Mauritanian and Iraqi leagues don't receive much coverage from trustworthy media sources—French, English, or Arabic—and individual Mauritanian players in the local league and more "obscure," for lack of a better word, leagues receive even less. My point is that a strict interpretation of WP:SIGCOV, without taking larger context and performance into account, skews coverage on Wikipedia away from non-Western players, venturing into WP:BIAS territory. Because Houbeib has appeared more than a dozen times for a national team and appeared in a major continental tournament recently that was broadcast around the world, to me, his notability is established. Would I like to see more significant coverage in classical media sources? Yes, of course. But in this case, I don't think it's required to keep the article. This isn't a third-division semi-pro player who represented his country once at under-19 level. This is a regular player for a national team that qualified for and played in a continental tournament. Anwegmann (talk) 16:21, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was just made aware of this AfD in another discussion circling around the possibility of inherent notability due to national team caps. If anything, this provides some precedent for what I'm saying. I acknowledge, though, that 15 national team caps is a bit low for inherent notability, given the precedent established in the linked AfD. That said, though, appearance in the 2023 Africa Cup of Nations reasonably adds to this player's notability. I would be willing to change my vote to "draftify" if we can reach some kind of consensus about this. Anwegmann (talk) 16:44, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify: the cap tally is now 21. I also believe that we are now far, far into WP:BIAS territory. There is a difference between a performing team like Mauritania and insignificant countries (within football) such as Belize and Nepal. But, alas: sources. Geschichte (talk) 08:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Although I don't fully agree that there is a difference between national teams, as they each have fundamental value in world football, I agree with your sentiment and overall point here. Houbeib continues to appear for a national team that recently performed in a continental tournament. This is well into the realm of WP:BIAS. Anwegmann (talk) 01:06, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 17:28, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 17:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - He has international caps therefore he is undoubtedly notable. IJA (talk) 10:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which guideline states this? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 20:31, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, if even the editors advocating to keep this article acknowledge there is not and will not be IRS SIGCOV then clearly a standalone article is not warranted. JoelleJay (talk) 19:29, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Herald (Benison) (talk) 02:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep - coverage found here (signing), here (signing), here (contract extension), and probably many more Arabic-language sources. All I did was search the player's Arabic name (الحسن سالم احويبيب) and some immediate results came back. I can't read or understand Arabic so my search ended after these three articles— but I'm sure there's way more. Then, we need to consider that the bar for Mauritanian footballers' coverage is lower than for Western players, as there is just naturally more media coverage of sports in Western countries in general. Lastly, this guy has made 20+ caps for a prominent African national team, and has competed at a MAJOR tournament. The evidence of coverage existing, the threshold being at a certain level, and the prominence of the player all bring me to the conclusion that article needs to be kept & improved. I'd even suggest a page move to fix currently incorrect page title. Paul Vaurie (talk) 01:06, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GiantSnowman and The Herald: Sources found. Paul Vaurie (talk) 01:08, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You should ping JoelleJay. I simply relisted. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 01:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Those sources are the definition of routine, trivial transactional coverage, not to mention non-independent since almost everything in them is quoted from the club. And the first two are essentially identical! Why would you link to those sources as evidence of SIGCOV if you didn't even read them?? JoelleJay (talk) 01:47, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that these sources don't appear enough. Giant Snowman 19:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman and JoelleJay: Y'all have your bar set way too high for coverage of this player. You must remember that the subject is a Mauritanian footballer—not English, German, but Mauritanian. Also, playing at a major tournament like AFCON definitely means that Arabic-language sources exist... deleting this article would start a slippery slope in which hundreds non-Western articles would get deleted simply due to a lack of easily-findable coverage by editors that exclusively use Latin-alphabet keyboards. Take some time to do a proper Arabic-language search instead of bashing this article and not giving it much thought.
In my opinion, the surface-level presence of Arabic-language sources shows that relative to the depth of all coverage of Mauritania-related topics, this player has some kind of notability. Paul Vaurie (talk) 23:09, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even more digging shows plenty of stuff about him popping up. this, this, and notably this. Yes, there is a routine feel to the coverage, but there's just a point where you have to understand that the bar is not as high as it would be for a player playing in Western Europe. The fact that there's just this many articles on a relatively obscure Mauritanian footballer says something. Paul Vaurie (talk) 23:16, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If this article is deleted, we could probably delete 50% of all articles about footballers from Arabic-language countries where media coverage is harder to find. That's not a good thing. I understand there are deletionists, but this isn't an article that should be deleted, especially considering how prominent this player is in African football. (Yes, competing at two AFCONs is quite prominent, I think). Paul Vaurie (talk) 23:42, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that there is just naturally more media coverage of sports in Western countries in general is literally why more athletes from Western countries are notable. If a subject doesn't get IRS SIGCOV then by definition it is not notable! What you are arguing is for us to reinstate presumptions of coverage--or even inherent notability--based on the subject reaching some arbitrary, subjective level of achievement, but such presumptions have been repeatedly and near-unanimously rejected.
Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)/Archive 54#Renewed proposal for association football (soccer)
Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)/Archive 55#Should we soften the phrase "Sports biographies must include at least one reference to a source providing significant coverage of the subject, excluding database sources."?
Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)/Archive 52#Proposed Notability criteria track and field athletes (see WP:NTRACK) The community has rejected participation-based notability criteria even when a single appearance in some league or tournament empirically predicts SIGCOV 100% of the time; there is thus 0% chance of us accepting any criterion whose SIGCOV predictive power isn't supported by any evidence at all. JoelleJay (talk) 01:14, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 2022 RfC made it clear the requirement for SPORTCRIT SIGCOV applies to all athletes, regardless of location or time. We do not change our bar for coverage based on where the subject is from. Conferring notability to some geographical subset of subjects via the exact same routine, trivial, and non-independent sources we dismiss for subjects everywhere else in the world is patronizing and would only encourage applying those same standards to progressively less encyclopedic tiers of Western subjects. And presuming actual SIGCOV does exist based only on the presence of such low-quality non-GNG sources is exactly what was deprecated through wide consensus two years ago.

The 4th source you link is identical to source #3, #5 is trivial coverage of the same topic, and literally the only secondary independent coverage of Houbeib in #6 is Al-Zawraa player, Mauritanian Al-Hassan Ahouibib, joined the team's training today, Monday, after the end of his vacation, which was granted to him with the cancellation of last season. The rest is taken directly from the club. This is the case for all of the sources you've linked: a couple sentences of routine transactional announcements interspersed with "the club said [blahblahblah]" and more general updates on the club as a whole. JoelleJay (talk) 00:42, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you think this article aught to be deleted, I urge you to start nominating every single other similar player article that has "less" notability than this guy. You'll find that there's much more coverage of this guy than some other players who survived AfD in the past or that have articles that happen to exist despite probably failing GNG/SPORTCRIT. I stand firmly in my belief that we're being too harsh here and that the coverage is enough. Also, how did you brush by these sentences?
1. Al-Hassan Ahwaibib is considered one of the reasons for the strength of Al-Zawraa’s defense during the past season, due to its consistent level during the tournament.
2.Huwaibib plays as a libero. He played great matches with Al-Zawraa last season, and succeeded in convincing coach Ayoub Odisho to renew with the team and lead the defense line...
These seem like notable secondary independent coverage of the subject. That's three different sources offering secondary coverage. Who says there isn't more? I can't properly do an Arabic-language search and this is what I found easily. Paul Vaurie (talk) 04:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you can find significant, Arabic-language coverage, then great., I'll happily re-consider. Giant Snowman 19:03, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You will find that I have been extremely consistent in supporting deletion of hundreds of subjects with this level of coverage. We are slowly working through the backlog of poorly-sourced articles, so just because many still exist doesn't mean their standards of coverage are endorsed.
Those are among the routine, trivial sentences that I referenced above. We would not consider someone in the 5th tier of English football to meet GNG with such sources, we should not lower our standards just because you think footballers in certain regions deserve articles. JoelleJay (talk) 19:35, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist. I can't close this as Keep if there is no SIGCOV because the decision would be immediately taken to WP:Deletion review where the closure would be overturned. The possibility of Draftifying was raised, would this be an acceptable outcome until better sourcing can be located, perhaps in Arabic media sources?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:04, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Sources are trivial and routine. If the subject does not receive significant coverage, there is nothing that can be done. Additionally, the argument pointing to the existence of other articles related to players from Arabic-speaking countries is irrelevant per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.

Industrial Insect (talk) 18:22, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Nothing but routine transfer and signing news popping up. There are many many places online where somone can view the statistics and team history of a soccer player; Wikipedia needn't be one of them. Mach61 — Preceding undated comment added 07:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm concerned that someone would say that Mauritius is an Arabic-speaking country. There's probably more Arabic spoken in many western countries than Mauritius! Nfitz (talk) 20:18, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nfitz: Why do you keep mentioning Mauritius? We're talking about a Mauritanian player. Paul Vaurie (talk) 09:36, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oops - Mauritanian not Mauritian. Well, I should stop searching the Mauritian media! Aren't I the fool! Nfitz (talk) 11:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - there's nothing in WP:ROUTINE that says that articles about transfers are routine coverage; the example given there is "sports score" and "sports matches". If one wants to play by the "rules" that no longer make an international player (let alone with 20+ caps for his nation), one needs to not exaggerate the other "rules". Nfitz (talk) 19:14, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even if transactional announcements weren't overwhelmingly considered routine by editors at AfD, as you well know, the sources above also fail independence by simply repeating what club officials have said, and fail SIGCOV by being trivial. Do you have any evidence of actual IRS SIGCOV or are you really claiming that the sources above that even other keep !voters acknowledge is routine and non-significant actually meet GNG? JoelleJay (talk) 19:44, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The bottom line is what's in policy and guidelines - not what a few editors have pushed. I don't believe the claims of lack of independence are correct - how is this not independent? I'll admit photographs of him playing in major Canadian newspapers don't count for anything - other than my surprise. Nfitz (talk) 20:15, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nfitz, the issue is that these short articles are primary sources (see WP:NEWSPRIMARY), and primary sources do not establish notability. Unlike secondary sources, they contain no original analysis or synthesis of existing primary sources Mach61 01:37, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see User talk:Mach61, how the that is an primary source. Also, can you please explain why Rimsport and Cridem are not independent. Nfitz (talk) 04:14, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nfitz May you please stop trying to preform a Gish gallop and actually address my argument. I said nothing about independence, and I explained why I thought those sources were primary. Mach61 12:06, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wow - so rude. Why? I do not understand why you think that Rimsport and Cridem are primary sources. I don't see where you've explained why they are primary sources - you've simply stated they are. They don't look primary to me. Nfitz (talk) 16:11, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nfitz Most every source you've brought so far is primary because they are original materials that are close to an event. As explained at WP:NEWSPRIMARY, a newspaper article is a primary source if it reports events, but a secondary source if it analyses and comments on those events. I called what you are doing a Gish gallop because you are not actually adressing the reasoning behind the arguments I have made, but are merely stating them to be incorrect without elaboration. Cheers, Mach61 20:03, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Arguments? What arguments? You simply said it was primary, without even trying to explain why. And why pretend I've provided multiple sources, when I provided one, that despite multiple polite requests, you won't even discuss. This is not okay - you can't just make stuff up in AFD, User:Mach61. Nfitz (talk) 20:33, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please explain (or retract) User:Mach61? Nfitz (talk) 22:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No 🗿 Mach61 23:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For example, routine news coverage of announcements, events, sports, or celebrities, while sometimes useful, is not by itself a sufficient basis for inclusion of the subject of that coverage
Do you seriously need the policy to spell out "routine news coverage of announcements such as sports transaction announcements, ..."?
Someone else quoting/relaying information from primary non-independent sources does not make that information secondary and independent.
What you link now was not among the "sources above" that I referenced in my comment. It is still clearly routine transactional news of dubious independence--more than likely it is purely derived from the club's press release. JoelleJay (talk) 00:07, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The policy mention sports scores and sports matches. And that's the test for having an article about a match; not even for using it as a source. The article hardly reads like a press release, as it includes too much context. I don't think you can use a hypothesis of it being a reprint of a press release that you can't find as the basis for anything here. And really - 20 international caps - is this the hill to have a borderline debate about? Given the lack of online Mauritanian news, we should probably defer this until there's a good database of Mauritanian news. Nfitz (talk) 02:34, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not quoting ROUTINE. I am quoting WP:NOTNEWS policy. Newspapers report on every transfer announcement with similar depth and little independent secondary contribution, with almost all facts derived from the club's press release. That is the definition of "routine news coverage of announcements ... [and] sports".
We have multiple people advising that Mauritanian news doesn't provide SIGCOV of this topic in general. We don't have any evidence to suggest otherwise, and we had global consensus to deprecate any presumption that such coverage exists based on number of matches or tournament appearances. JoelleJay (talk) 16:20, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If I follow that logic to the end, doesn't it mean not mentioning any transfers of players in most articles - unless like something tragic happens during the transfer. Nfitz (talk) 22:31, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:08, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chris Ciamaga

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Doesn't appear to meet notability guidelines. A Google search only shows passing mentions in articles, no significant coverage. He was mostly a minor league referee that officiated in a small handful of NHL games. Not notable enough for an article. My Pants Metal (talk) 14:28, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. My Pants Metal (talk) 14:28, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople and New York. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 20:47, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Subject does not have the WP:SIGCOV from secondary sources to meet the WP:GNG. All the sources in the article are either primary or social media posts and a BEFORE check doesn't come up with anything better. Let'srun (talk) 20:18, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Noting previous AFD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eric Furlatt.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 14:59, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Well, these football bio articles do get heated. Reading this is like a roller coaster of contempt for other editors. But, at the very end of this discussion, the conclusion is that there exist sources that establish GNG even if there are individual editors who disagree and others who are not clear on what factors count towards notability. If it matters, I do not follow sports and have no opinion on whether this article should be Kept or Deleted, I'm just reading all of the comments and assessing the arguments presented right up until a few hours ago. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:43, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Georges Demulder

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

lugnuts stub. fails general notability guideline. ltb d l (talk) 07:54, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Football and Belgium. ltb d l (talk) 07:54, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 08:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The corresponding article in French fr:Georges Demulder is significantly longer. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 08:16, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Democratic Republic of the Congo-related deletion discussions. gidonb (talk) 14:20, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I am not so clear on the added value of this AfD. Demulder was a long-time winger for Molenbeek, then White Star, in the top Belgian tier. He even played on the Belgian national team. Plus there is absolutely no BLP concern. If references are missing, there is a template for that! gidonb (talk) 15:12, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

67 newspaper pages contain the name Georges Demulder (+1 page in a magazine). Maybe someone has access? gidonb (talk) 16:13, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 15:44, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 15:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Portugal-related deletion discussions. gidonb (talk) 18:21, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep – I don't see the article failing in WP:GNG. It was commented in previous AfD that Belgium has a lack of online information about newpapers database, so I believe that there is a satisfactory amount of offline sources, as demonstrated by @gidonb. Svartner (talk) 20:43, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I'm in full agreement with Svartner. This is no notability failure, just an access to sources problem. There are plenty of sources offline. Also, the article is no longer a stub. gidonb (talk) 21:03, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are online sources as well, but don't expect google to find them for you. A first step is make an account on belgica.be [11] Cattivi (talk) 12:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for your help, Cattivi! I found out the existence above, just couldn't get access. This is awesome! A barnstar is on the way!!! gidonb (talk) 12:52, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Although I think this article is very weak overall, I agree with Svartner about the relative availability of sources required for SIGCOV. If we only interpret SIGCOV as strictly as possible, only articles about modern footballers from countries with developed leagues and media infrastructures will exist—which goes against the very principle of Wikipedia. Anwegmann (talk) 03:51, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is just not true, Anwegmann. Wikipedia contains myriads of articles about athletes and other notables, including footballers, from the "pre-modern" era. I'm sure you will find them easily and quickly if you look for them. But, once again, Wikipedia is not the directory of allfootballers. If you want completeness, check the special websites; this is what I do. This may be hard to accept but it is a foundational principle. -The Gnome (talk) 12:49, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not talking about the "pre-modern" era. I'm talking about countries, leagues, and teams with very, very little coverage in what we identify as "reliable" sources due to their global obscurity. I'm referencing WP:BIAS, not WP:NOTDIRECTORY. Anwegmann (talk) 13:16, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, what do you suggest we do in case there is, for whatever reason, very little coverage in reliable sources? Bend the rules? Ignore them? Because this is what your suggestion implies. (By the way, those quotation marks around "reliable" suggest you do not think much of Wikipedia considering WP:RS too important. That would be unfortunate.) Allow me to emphasize that the objective of Wikipedia is not completeness. By the mere fact that WP places emphasis on verifiability through reliable sources it is quite certain that it will never adequately cover (as adequately as a football encyclopaedia, for example) those countries and leagues. -The Gnome (talk) 17:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 09:06, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete because our subject does not meet WP:GNG or WP:FOOTYN. The entirety of the Keep suggestions amounts, when all is said and done, to "surely there are sources out there". But that's just not of value. Wikipedia is not a collection of random information. Nor a directory of a country's footballers. -The Gnome (talk) 18:50, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the article was a one-sentence stub, I could perhaps see this as a failure of NOTDIRECTORY; however, this article has been expanded to something pretty decent and there appear to be several sources specifically about him added? (especially the one: "De vuurdoop van G. Demulder in Belgie-Zwitserland" [G. Demulder's baptism by fire in Belgium-Switzerland]) BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:59, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The size of the text is truly irrelevant in the matter. The article could've been 20 thousand words long and of fine prose and still be a legitimate candidate for deletion. This is not about the text's quantity or quality.It's about whether or not there are enough sources supporting its subject's notability. End of story. And there are not! The single relevant reference, beyond listings and the like, is the one you also mention, in a 1939 newspaper clipping. Where are the books? The articles on Belgium's football history? Where is the "significant coverage"? I'm sorry but this is truly inadequate. -The Gnome (talk) 18:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My reference to its length is regarding whether or not it fails NOTDIRECTORY (something the expansion makes irrelevant here). Regarding notability, it is simply ridiculous to suggest that we need all the different articles and books on a nation's sporting history to mention this individual athlete for that athlete to be notable. It is of note that we have very little access to media of Belgium from that age (can you access any of the books on Belgium's football history?), so even if there were many articles mentioning him in regards to Belgium's football history we'd only have access to a few. Of the sources we do have access to, what's wrong with the newspaper source? That appears to pass "significant coverage"'s definition of "directly and in-depth", does it not? BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:43, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Since opinion is divided, it would be helpful to get an assessment of improvements made to the article since its nomination.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:39, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep There is still room for improvement, but this player played for Sporting one of the top clubs in Portugal. Not to mention the Belgium National team. It's weak on sources yes, but that doesn't negate it. Govvy (talk) 07:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
...it absolutely negates it. ltb d l (talk) 08:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have run out of ways to phrase this, Govvy, so I will simply repeat myself: Wikipedia is all about sources! This is not just some opinion expressed in an essay, either. (Check both Wikipedia:Truth, not verifiability and Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth.) Lack of sources and weakness of sources is what gets texts deleted from Wikipedia. Therefore, do not expect completeness of information here. This is not a directory of footballers. Neither is it a collection of randomly collected information. -The Gnome (talk) 12:49, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Blah, blah, bla, blab, ba? There was no need to ping with a load of RTMs, I've been on wikipedia for years. Are you going to bother doing any of your own research?? It wouldn't be that hard to find good sources if you wanted too. The height of laziness is to write an opinion without validation. Govvy (talk) 13:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, Govvy, simmer down. Check your temper before posting. Understood? Secondly, I do not care about editors' backgrounds or records. I treat everyone equally, with the same respect. Your years in Wikipedia mean very little in AfD discussions.

Thirdly, I was very clear about my opinion: There are not enough sources. So, what kind of research exactly do you want me to do? If I say "there are not enough sources" that's a negative opinion. You seriously want me to prove a negative?! How does that work exactly? I'm supposed to bring forward all the sources in the world and point out that no source carries a good enough mention of Demulder? If I say "XYZ cannot be found," that's a claim that cannot be logically supported but can be trivially refuted! I.e. by producing XYZ - or a bunch of XYZs. Work that out for a while, please, and then respond. -The Gnome (talk)

Bla, bla, blobby, bloggy! Thanks for your meaningless post, please don't ping me again. Govvy (talk) 21:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a message forum or some "party website", Govvy. Get your shit together or walk away. Fair & last warning. -The Gnome (talk) 14:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What are you on about? I told you not to ping me. Get my shit together? Seems to me you have the problem, if you ping me again I will just report you to the admin for harassment. Govvy (talk) 14:49, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Both of you, kindly stop it. You both disagree and will not get each other to change opinions. Leave it at that. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:15, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Disagreement is fine; I even welcome it. But uncivil, boorish behavior is unacceptable. -The Gnome (talk) 17:33, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It appears both of you have crossed that line; Bla, bla, blobby, bloggy! Thanks for your meaningless post and Get your **** together both are uncivil and unneeded remarks. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:51, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - He has international caps therefore he is undoubtedly notable. IJA (talk) 10:41, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
nonsense. ltb d l (talk) 10:47, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IJA, "surely he is notable" is not an acceptable argument in AfD discussions. If there are sources satisfying WP:GNG or WP:FOOTYN, please produce them; supposing "surely there are sources" is not an acceptable argument either. -The Gnome (talk) 12:49, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"surely he is notable" would not be an acceptable argument, HOWEVER IJA DID NOT say that. IJA said that the international cap(s) contribute to Demulder's importance as a footballer. That is a highly acceptable argument to make in an AfD. As a player on the national team, Demulder was more than just a frequent player on Belgian and Portuguese top-tier teams! gidonb (talk) 22:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, maybe someone who actually speaks Belgian can attest to the non-triviality of the newspaper source and the state of 1930s footballer sourcing in Belgium. @Fram? JoelleJay (talk) 17:52, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As it happens, I speak French fluently. (In Belgium, they speak French and Flemish. There is no "Belgian" language.) What's the task exactly? -The Gnome (talk) 18:44, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the task is reading this newspaper source (though that looks like Dutch, I think). BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Gnome, so someone missed a word. It happens to me all the time! JoelleJay, reading Belgian Dutch (aka Flemish) fluently, I can attest that the article is nontrivial SIGCOV of the most independent nature. The famous Belgian sports journalist Pol Jaquemyns, who has an article on Nlwiki, ANALYZES the playing style of Demulder and how it would contribute (or not), to the Belgian national team. Furthermore, by the 1930s football was very well covered in Belgium, in the local, regional, and national press, as well as in special sports dailies and magazines. The problem is access to these sources. gidonb (talk) 22:41, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, if he meets SPORTCRIT then that's probably enough until we get access to further sources. JoelleJay (talk) 22:56, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, per Gidonb's analysis of the newspaper sources. BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

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