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Tim Zukas and rail transport articles

Tim Zukas (talk · contribs) has a habit of making large undocumented edits to articles. These combine factual changes and stylistic changes; this is typical. He does not, in general, use helpful or indicative edit summaries (see the history of Overland Limited (UP train). This behavior, including his frequent IP editing, is documented at Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Tim Zukas, although I had no involvement with the creation of that page. I want to make clear that I'm here in my capacity as an editor; I have not used my tools in this dispute.

The specific dispute that brings me here concerns Overland Limited (UP train). I created this article in August 2014; the only other major editor is Centpacrr (talk · contribs). Beginning in February, first as an IP and then as himself, he began making large-scale changes in the pattern described above. Many edit summaries were misleading or non-existent. Examples include:

• [1], which according to the edit summary was a revert of [2] but made other stylistic changes and added a whole new completely unsourced section
• [3] the edit summary says "several corrections" (and indicates an intention to edit war) but again mixes stylistic changes and content changes. Note that sources are only removed, and not added.
• [4] as above, with the claim "your version has the errors, so you're the one that needs to explain. (Can't be done, tho.)" but no direct indication of what these errors were.
• [5] among other wholesale revisions, actually removes the entire footnotes section and {{reflist}} template, and then revert-warred [6] [7] while denying he'd done any such thing.

This dispute had gotten out of hand and discussions on Talk:Overland Limited (UP train) were not fruitful. Centpacrr and I went back and forth with Tim Zukas, especially in Talk:Overland_Limited_(UP_train)#.22Corrections.22, about what these "errors" were, what sources he had, and so on. I will acknowledge that he was in the right on several issues, but extracting this information was a slow, painful process. I opened a discussion at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard which you can see at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Overland_Limited_.28UP_train.29.23.22Corrections.22. With the kind assistance of Thibbs (talk · contribs) we identified five major points of contention and invested a solid month (with breaks) in discussing them, often in considerable detail. This was my first encounter with DRN and I rather liked it. Thibbs closed the discussion on April 1. Almost immediately Tim Zukas began making the same types of edits as before: [8] [9] [10]. It's the same mixture of stylistic changes, factual changes, and removal of sources.

I think Centpacrr and I are at wits end here. This is a collaborative environment but Tim Zukas will not meet us halfway. It requires extraordinary effort to engage with this user. I'd like to ask that he, at the very least, be banned from Overland Limited (UP train). A more general topic ban from rail transport articles may be appropriate as he has engaged in similar edits on City of San Francisco (train) (see [11]) and City of Denver (train) ([12]). Failing that, I'd appreciate any guidance on how to move this issue forward. Thank you to anyone who read this far. Best, Mackensen (talk) 21:49, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

"Tim Zukas will not meet us halfway"

What he means is, I correct the errors that they have put in, then they put them back. Centpacrr wants me to explain the corrections-- naturally I figure he should explain his uncorrections. He should try, that is-- it can't actually be done.

"we identified five major points of contention"

He's referring to the five examples I gave of their errors. They were examples, not a complete list, and Centpacrr's latest version has lots more. Tim Zukas (talk) 22:12, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Is your desired outcome then that you'll remove and/or rewrite anything you don't like or disagree with, then other editors will read your version and then add references which support it? I don't think that's how this project works. Mackensen (talk) 22:18, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Thibbs pointed out to me that my creation of the LTA case page, Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Tim Zukas, was out of process, since Tim Zukas has never been banned, let alone blocked under his main account. I had been chasing down disruption from IPs at rail and air transportation articles, starting from the Boeing 314 Clipper article, and bit by bit, the disruption pattern pointed the way to Tim Zukas making a huge number of edits logged out, especially favoring a logged-out status when he wants to remove a bunch of text from an article. So the LTA case page was intended to document disruption from IPs based near me in Oakland and Berkeley, California, but it ended up documenting the behavior of Tim Zukas. Binksternet (talk) 22:19, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

However, Tim Zukas was blocked as IP 75.16.27.73 last year, blocked by The Bushranger for three months for "Long-term disruptive, nonconstructive editing without any discussion." Binksternet (talk) 22:25, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

While User:Tim Zukas made a couple of useful suggestions, he also introduced a variety of other unsourced claims that when I researched them and came up with relevant reliable sources proved his speculations to be completely incorrect. Over the past month I have refined and expanded the article in a sandbox while the DNR discussion was going on and verified this material citing more the 20 new reliable and verifiable sources to support the material I added along with posting seven new images. When the DNR was closed I transferred the updated article that I had been developing to the mainspace. Within less than a day, however, User:Tim Zukas has already made three massive unexplained deletions which are, as usual, unsupported by any sources or citations. When asked to specify what he considers to be errors -- and to supply sources to support his claims -- as usual he never does so. His only response was a completely unhelpful comment that "The sources might be correct, but the sources aren't writing the article." (see here) Unfortunately this is not the first run in that I (and many other editors) have had with this user in aviation and railroad transportation articles over a period of years now in which he has exhibited this same disruptive behavior. Centpacrr (talk) 22:32, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I too had a run-in with Tim Zukas back in May 2013 on the San Francisco International Airport article. At that time he made a host of changes without any discussion or consensus. When I queried these, all I got was a barrage of abuse and incivility. Considering all the contentious and sockpuppet IP edits that they have been involved in, it is really time for an extended block. David J Johnson (talk) 22:57, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

It's amazing that an editor who's been here 5 years would make such a clueless as "The sources might be correct, but the sources aren't writing the article." At the very least, that comment needs an explanation from its author. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

The Boeing 314 article is now in its fourth semi-protection (this time for six months) exclusively because of this user's similar disruptive mass unsupported deletions using at least four sockpuppet anonymous IP's. It was not until after I had requested the current semi-protection that I was able to deduce that User:Tim Zukas and these sockpuppet IPs were one in the same. He also did the same with the Braniff International Airways article in which the editor he kept reversing claiming unspecified "errors" was a retired Braniff Captain who was also the Founder and President of Braniff Airways Foundation and Braniff Preservation Group, LLC which is essentially the airline's historical society!!! Centpacrr (talk) 23:12, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Seems like Zukas has a lot of 'splainin' to do. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:30, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

"When I queried these, all I got was a barrage of abuse and incivility."

Show everyone the barrage of abuse.

""The sources might be correct, but the sources aren't writing the article." At the very least, that comment needs an explanation from its author."

Perhaps half of the numerous errors in Centpacrr's latest version of the article are misreadings of the source. A couple examples-- in the History section he says

"Lucius Beebe contends that the Union Pacific always intended this as a temporary measure to coerce better performance from the Chicago and North Western, and in fact a section of the Overland continued to use the C&NW during the period."

Anyone who reads Beebe's book can see that he contended nothing about the UP's motives and didn't claim no know anything about them. He offered that speculation and made it clear it was a guess.

In the Name section Centpacrr says

"The Southern Pacific introduced its first deluxe service between San Francisco/Oakland and Ogden though to Chicago on December 5, 1888 with the weekly Golden Gate Special"

No one knows where he got that idea-- the timetable in Beebe's book shows it running Council Bluffs to Oakland. The schedule wasn't fast enough for the one set of cars to make a round trip to Chicago in a week.

Presumably you commenters don't claim to be experts on the Overland Limited, and apparently you're inclined to think Centpacrr's errors aren't errors. Probably you don't have his sources to check. And sometimes it is the source that's wrong-- in the back of Signor's book Phelps said the "Limited" disappeared from the name in July 1947, but as I said before the timetables show that CNW and UP dropped the name in 1946 or earlier and SP dropped it in May 1947 or earlier. Tim Zukas (talk) 18:39, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

This is all beside the point because you've never (or almost never) been willing to add sources to articles. Your habit of massive unexplained removals is the issue at stake here, and you've only been forthcoming after long, tedious discussions on talk pages and elsewhere. This behavior is discourteous. Centpacrr and I are not the only ones who think so. We're not the only ones who've asked you to stop. That are you are ostensibly right on various minor factual points doesn't change this because it required enormous effort to extract from you (a) what your actual concerns were and (b) what your sources were. Let's not get distracted in some abstract discussion about the operation of a long discontinued train. The issue here is your discourtesy toward other editors and your disregard for the established editing norms on this project. Mackensen (talk) 23:48, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• I have moved my earlier response to the Zukas posting above to the Overland Limited's talk page because, as Mackensen correctly points out above, it is unrelated to the basic ANI issue here which is this user's long standing disruptive behavior and practice of making massive, unsupported deletions of content and sources in many railroad and aviation related articles as well as his frequently employing massive anonymous IP sockpuppetry to avoid detection and hide his identity while doing so. Centpacrr (talk) 00:07, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

For background information, there was a long-running thread at the dispute resolution noticeboard about this article, Overland Limited (UP train), for more than three weeks, in which the participants were User:Tim Zukas, User:Mackensen, and User:Centpacrr, and in which User:Thibbs was the mediator. The thread seemed to go reasonably well, but went much longer than the usual time for threads at DRN, which normally deals with issues in one to two weeks. The mediator, Thibbs, then suggested, and the parties agreed, to take further discussion back to the talk page. Within a day after the thread was closed, this report was filed. I have nothing substantive to add, but that is the recent history. If the parties are willing to resume commenting on content and not on contributors, formal mediation might still be available, but not if there are issues of conduct including of sockpuppetry. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:59, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

I think for all the reasons stated above by myself, Mackensen, David J Johnson, Binksternet, the long time history of abuse of User:Zukas as documented in the LTA, his intransigence during the recent DRN, and the wide number of articles in which this user has engaged in his pattern of similar disruptive editing over the past five years, that "mediation" would not be a fruitful exercise. Centpacrr (talk) 03:49, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

I just wanted to make a note here (since I've been mentioned a few times now) that I won't be commenting on this case. I'm a hardliner against comments from a mediation being used in an evidentiary manner and really my only experience with Tim Zukas comes from the DRN proceeding. I know DRN isn't quite the same as full mediation but it's close enough to the same idea to make me uncomfortable commenting. -Thibbs (talk) 01:23, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Thibbs, your yeomanlike efforts in the DRN over the past month were very much appreciated, and the eventual failure to reach a resolution through it were certainly not your fault. The issues with this editor are long standing and involve his conflicts with many other articles and editors. Mackensen and I had hoped that trying the DRN might change that but alas it only served to prove that the basic problem is a much more pervasive and fundamental one which is largely unrelated to this single article's content. So please accept Mackensen and my thanks for your efforts. It is folks like you that really make the project go. Centpacrr (talk) 01:41, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Propose air & rail topic ban for Tim Zukas

I think Tim Zukas is too anti-collegial to be allowed to edit here, but rather than suggest a block I propose instead a topic ban on the kinds of articles he edits with the greatest fervor: air and rail transportation, broadly construed. Binksternet (talk) 04:06, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support This would seem to me to be an appropriate next step although what I expect will happen is that this user will (as he has in the past) engage in block evasion by reverting to editing from the many anonymous IP sockpuppets he has used in the past. Fortunately, however, these are also now fairly easy to identify as they all geolocate to the East San Francisco Bay Area either as Comcast Communications IPs where he lives in Oakland, or to static IPs assigned to the Berkeley Public Library and the University of California-Berkeley (including several to the Office of the UC's President), a school which he apparently also attended in the late 1960s. If this happens then it may be necessary to request semi-protection of individual articles that he disrupts such is the current case with the Boeing 314 entry so that they can't be edited by unregistered IP users. Centpacrr (talk) 06:51, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

• Additional comment by Centpacrr 1: Regretfully, as Mackensen correctly notes (below), the utter chutzpah of this user's most recent edit shows me that he really has no intention of respecting WP's policies and guidelines, atmosphere of collegiality, assuming good faith, or abiding by the consensus of the community. In addition I have still never seen this user ever add a single source or citation in any article supporting anything he has either added or changed. Instead he often either removes sources and citations posted by other editors, and/or makes changes in the text that no longer accurately reflect sources and citations that he leaves in.

This user is clearly intelligent, interested in the topics of air and rail transportation, has a good deal of useful knowledge in the subject, and is apparently an experienced railfan photographer. However I find it puzzling that such a person -- especially one who has a demonstrated long standing and continuing association with such a great academic institution as the University of California at Berkeley from which my grandfather graduated in 1914 -- to be so dismissive of the value and necessity of supporting material in WP entries by citing reliable, verifiable sources. By his instant action in again rejecting this basic tenant of building an encyclopedia as well as refusing to work with any other members of the WP community, this user has, in my view, waived any remaining benefit of the doubt as to his intentions to ever do so but has instead clearly declared a personal "it's my way or the highway" approach to the project.

If Mr. Zukas were willing to cooperate collegially with the rest of the editors on WP -- especially when asked to explain and support his views -- then I suspect he would be a very valuable contributor to the project. The goal in building each entry is, after all, to "get it right" and that is a cooperative, collaborative process. While this user may be very knowledgeable, if he is not willing to work within that process it tends to only defeat rather than advance the project. If Mr. Zukas is not willing to do so and continues his present demonstrated disruptive editing practices, then perhaps a period of being blocked may also be appropriate in addition to a topic ban from editing aviation and railroad related articles until such time as he is willing to work with the community as opposed to at cross purposes. Centpacrr (talk) 00:22, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

• Additional Comment by Centpacrr 2: Unfortunately Mr. Zukas has elected instead to double down Centpacrr (talk) 23:13, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support, with regret. I don't think this discussion has made any impression on Tim Zukas, given this edit just made with the blithe edit summary "Usual corrections." Mackensen (talk) 00:03, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

• See my Additional Comment by Centpacrr 1 above Centpacrr (talk) 00:22, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support Mr Zukas has been given multiple opportunities to edit and communicate with other editors in a spirit of civility and constructive editing. This he has patently failed to do - plus editing (sockpuppeting) from various IP addresses, as well as his own account. Wikipedia is, in the main, a good example team work: Mr Zukas has failed to ever accept co-operation. David J Johnson (talk) 09:30, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

• See my Additional Comment by Centpacrr 2 above Centpacrr (talk) 23:13, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Propose immediate block of Tim Zukas for continued disruptive editing & sockpuppetry

• Subject user now also in violation of 3RR, continued disruptive editing, renewed sockpuppetry: Subject user Tim Zukas is now also in violation of WP:3RR for making a third mass unexplained and unsupported deletion of material and sources (see here) since the opening of this ANI, this time using one of his demonstrated sockpuppet IPs (128.32.11.112) to hide his identity which geolocates like many of his others to the University of California-Berkeley. I now propose an immediate block from editing of this user, a long term topic ban on editing air and rail transportation articles broadly construed, and long term (six month) semi-protection of the articles Overland Limited (UP train), City of San Francisco (train), and City of Denver (train). Centpacrr (talk) 16:44, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Certainly Tim Zukas is edit warring, and he's violating WP:MULTIPLE by editing both logged in and logged out on the same article. I don't see that he has violated 3RR specifically, despite the continued edit warring which must be addressed. I suggest page protection combined with blocking of the IP and the Tim Zukas account. Binksternet (talk) 18:13, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
• Additional comment by Centpacrr: User Zukas has made five more massive unexplained and unsupported deletions of restored material and sources on the Overland Limited (UP train) article between April 2 (the day this ANI was opened by Mackensen) and today, April 6 ([13], [14], [15], [16], and [17]) including three between Saturday evening (April 4) and Monday morning (today, April 6). This indicates to me that despite the previous almost month long DRN and the opening of this process, this user has no interest or intention of cooperating and/or collaborating with the rest of the WP community in this matter. Centpacrr (talk) 18:39, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

• Subject user Zukas made a SIXTH unexplained and unsupported mass deletion on Tuesday evening, April 7. [18] Again significant amounts of sourced material was deleted or changed; five cited sources removed; some new material added but none of it was supported by any citations or sources; no edit summary supplied. Centpacrr (talk) 03:50, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
• Subject user Zukas made a SEVENTH unexplained and unsupported mass deletion similar to the others on Wednesday morning, April 8 [19]. Centpacrr (talk) 18:34, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support block. An indefinite one. Tim has shown absolutely no ability to act collaboratively. And a ready willingness to flip us all the bird with his blatant non-stop socking. It's time for this farcical nonsense to stop. He must be tossed out of here and told not to come back in no uncertain terms. If even call for a community ban. oknazevad (talk) 22:14, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• Subject user Zukas made an EIGHTH even larger unexplained and unsupported mass deletion similar to the others (including the entire lede this time) since the opening of this ANI on Thursday afternoon, April 9 [20]. Immediate edit blocking of this disruptive editor now sems essential. Centpacrr (talk) 18:29, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• NINTH mass deletion [21], no edit summary, Friday afternoon, April 10. Centpacrr (talk) 22:26, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• TENTH mass deletion [22], no edit summary, Satruday morning, April 11. Centpacrr (talk) 20:53, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support, sadly; another deletion followed again today. This needs an admin to take action. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:06, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• ELEVENTH mass deletion [23], no edit summary, Sunday morning, April 12. Centpacrr (talk) 23:28, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• The guy has been here for five years without having been blocked. At some point you might wonder if he's lost his marbles, or if his account has been hijacked. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:33, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• If that happened, it happened a while ago, based on that LTA case. There's signs of dodgy edits going back to 2013 with the named account, and, if Binksternet was correct about the IPs, dodgy IP editing in 2012 and 2011 as well. One such example of that IP editing would be [24], which is pretty iffy if you ask me. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 00:05, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• The vast majority of this user's most disruptive editing over the years has been done using multiple anonymous IP sockpuppets that all geolocate to the East San Francisco Bay Area either as Comcast Communications IPs where he lives in Oakland, or to static IPs assigned to the Berkeley Public Library and the University of California-Berkeley (including several to the Office of the UC's President), a school which he apparently also attended in the late 1960s, which were only positively determined in the last few weeks to actually all be sockpuppets that user Zukas has been using for years to disguise his identity and avoid being blocked. Now that all these sock IPs and user Zukas have been determined to be one in the same, it is also clear that he is the perpetrator of this long term pattern of abuse. Centpacrr (talk) 01:26, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support 1-month block. These mass deletions are ridiculous. And he did it 11 times to boot. An admin needs to take action eventually. Zeke Essiestudy (talk) 06:05, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - Centpacrr and Tim Zukas have been fighting over content of the Overland Limited piece for four and a half years, judging by Zukas's talk page. The latter seems to be an edit warrior, the former shows signs of "owning" the article. It wouldn't be a bad idea to toss them both from the piece as a first step to pacification. I wonder about Zukas's competence level, I did see one of his so-called "mass deletions" that completely wiped out the lead. Further investigation might lead to an indef result there... Carrite (talk) 16:17, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• I doubt that, given that I created the article last August. I've been dealing with Zukas' IP edits since before then, but I never realized until recently that it was him. As the article creator I have found Centpacrr willing to discuss his edits and cite sources; I can see no benefit to removing him. Mackensen (talk) 17:11, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Pushing to include unreliable sources still going on

As anticipated twice now,[25][26] Wee Curry Monster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) still pushes for the use of the unreliable, self-published source Graham Pascoe & Peter Pepper: [27]

WCM incurs in policy violation, because he's fully aware of their status of WP:SPS which have never been published academically and who copied content from Wikipedia into that very pamphlet (as discovered by WCM himself). Moreover, he's now openly advocating for and backing edits with his own original research: [28][29][30]

See also [31], WCM hasn't abandoned his WP:BATTLEFIELD philosophy. This is confirmed by his statement that WP:MEAT could be acceptable if not done "to damage Wikipedia", i.e. "to do the right thing": [32]

Is this community willing to do so something about it this time?[33][34]

PS: As a side note, it's relevant to mention that WCM is currently exporting Falklands-related fights to other wikis:

• Spanish Wikipedia: [35][36][37][38][39]
• Wikisource: [40] [41]
• Commons: [42] [43] [44]

--Langus (t) 01:17, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Writing as WCM's mentor, most of this post seems irrelevant: conduct on other Wikis obviously cannot be addressed on this Wiki and most of the above is simply attacks on WCM (I can't help but note that you linked the diff to WCM being blocked on Commons, and not the current version of the thread on their talk page which shows that it was subsequently lifted). The only substantive complaint, that WCM re-added an unreliable source to the Capture of Port Egmont article does not seem to have been discussed anywhere prior to this post. Could not a different source be substituted if this source isn't satisfactory? Nick-D (talk) 01:33, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Indeed Nick, my primary concern is that invalid source. I'm more than willing to use another one, wherever it be, but WCM has reverted its removal. I'm tired of pointing it out, both here and in talk pages of related articles; WCM's stance is always the same. You can see I warned this noticeboard about WCM's obsession with Pascoe & Pepper in the first two wikilinks above: [45][46]

Also, I tried to discuss this source way back in time at WP:RSN, but WCM blocked that attempt: [47]

However, it is patently clear that this is not an acceptable source. WCM should know this, having himself realized that these individuals copied content from Wikipedia. You seem to be suggesting that I should've started yet another discussion instead of filling an ANI. Let me ask you this: how many times is it needed to discuss the same topic before an incident being warranted? --Langus (t) 02:07, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't see how WCM "blocked your attempt" to discuss this at RSN three years ago... You posted a question, WCM responded, and no-one else took an interest in the discussion. Making personal attacks here over ancient discussion threads hardly contributes to resolving content disputes. Judging from WCM's edit summary [48], he appears to be acknowledge that the source isn't without its problems, but that it's OK for an uncontroversial fact. As you aren't disputing the article content, I would suggest that you propose a superior reference - that would be a win-win for our readers. Nick-D (talk) 05:39, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

If the source in dispute is basically a copy of Wikipedia information, then it can't be used at all. We can't reference ourselves for a fact, regardless of how controversial it is. A new source would need to be found which is not based on Wikipedia. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 06:07, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

I note that this is the second time that Langus-TxT has raised a frivolous complaint about me at ANI [49], further he has a habit of reverting cited edits on Falklands topics if he dislikes it. [50], [51], [52], [53], [54]. In Langus-TxT, we also have an editor who sees themselves as fighting [55] British Warriors, [56] British nationalists in en.WP on es.wikipedia [57] It is not "one" of the British, Wee Curry Monster is the worst falklandista of Wikipedia. Welcome to their world haha. This diff [58] is nothing more than a personal attack, however, its worth noting a very old RFC [59] where this editor's habit of reverting cited edits was noted four years ago. They're still doing it. [60] Here we see Langus accusing myself and @Kahastok: of being POV pushers. The issue we were trying to discuss was why there was a need for duplication of the same information. Further, I note @BedsBookworm: has expressed their frustration at Langus constantly reverting their edits [61], further when I re-assured Bookworm that I didn't think Langus was another editors meatpuppet [62] he somehow managed to infer that was a personal attack on him [63],[64]. He is also being misleading in his use of diffs above, [65] please note two remarks he claims were my attempt as WP:OR I withdrew, edit summary rm comments - withdrawn. The other [66] is clearly not WP:OR, I state clearly that it was based on personal recollection from over a decade ago and I point to someone with better information ie I was trying to be helpful. Am I doing something wrong there, nor is it meat puppetry to suggest that someone with superior language skills could help address an issue, I didn't tell him what to write.

The comments about other wikipedias are of course irrelevant here but I would like to take a few minutes to address them. The issue on Commons relates to this image, I know from my long experience on Falklands matters that this image has been circulating for some time. Its actually a fake that was produced to claim an event was front page news, whereas it was a tiny footnote at the bottom of the theatre section. There are a group of Spanish editors (including Langus-TxT), who A) acted in a tag team to dominate the deletion nomination, B) substituted an original copy of the article for this fake version on es.wikpedia and C) added a description that is utterly misleading, historically inaccurate and pushing Argentine state propaganda. I merely tried to alert the admin community there eg [67].

What is relevant here, is that Langus-TxT also added this known fake copy of the Times article here [68].

The source mentioned is not based on Wikipedia and it is not referencing wikipedia. I did, however, notice that something I'd written on wikipedia had crept in there. WP:SPS has an exemption for acknowledged experts, Dr Graham Pascoe and Peter Pepper are acknowledged experts on Falkland Islands history, the distinguished historian Sir Lawrence Freedman has acknowledged their expertise [69] endorsing an errata slip their prepared for his own work. In this case it was used to source an entirely uncontroversial fact. Removing a source and replacing it with a cn tag simply because the editor in question doesn't like what Pepper and Pascoe have to say is editing to damage the encyclopedia.

This is a recurring theme with this editor, when he sees a source he doesn't like (ie it contradicts certain nationalist claims in Argentina's pursuit of its Falklands sovereignty claim) he seeks to find excuses to ignore it and demand material cited to it is removed from Wikipedia. Latest example here [70] where even though the source desribes her book The extensive research she had done led her to writing the authoritative standard history of the Islands, The Falkland Islands, published in 1960. Later a shorter book The Falklands Story 1592-1982 based on additional material, concisely covered the story of the Falklands until the Argentinean invasion. he attempts to remove content claiming its "amateurish" based on his false claim two different books are contradictory (they aren't by the way). I note [71] he appears to be about to demand comments are removed in an article based on rubbishing the source as amateurish.

I really do think its about time the conduct of Langus was examined, he seems to create conflict unnecessarily too often. WCM_email 11:11, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Langus' complaint seems to be an exercise in mud-slinging - just as it was last time Langus brought WCM to ANI here. Throw mud around, see if it'll stick. If this happens again I think there may be some room for WP:BOOMERANG against Langus.

It is clear to me that Langus is not assuming WCM's good faith and has not done so for a very long time. This is amply demonstrated by the es.wiki links WCM provides: while clearly we can't do anything about es.wiki conduct, it is a clear demonstration of why there is an issue on en.wiki. If Langus objects to the source, the thing to do would be to discuss it the talk page, not to come straight to ANI with a trumped-up complaint that stands up to no scrutiny whatsoever. We should not encourage or support serial mudslingers such as Langus.

In terms of the source, we should be clear that the source is not a straight copy of Wikipedia and is not based on Wikipedia. It also is quite good at citing its own sources. There is no question that it takes a side in the dispute (you only need to read it to see that), but that does not make it unreliable in all circumstances as Langus claims. We could, in principle, look for the original sources, but they are often not easily accessible, and when the point is not in contention in the sovereignty dispute there is little reason to do so. Of course, if Langus wishes to find better sources, I don't think anyone is going to stop him. Kahastok talk 11:57, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

And there you have it, the pamphlet that copied WCM's text from Wikipedia, self-published by two persons who don't have the qualifications and haven't produced anything of academic value (yet WCM calls them "acknowledged experts"), the pamphlet that despite "citing" sources makes wild novel interpretations of them, is being defended right here and right now before our eyes.

I'm not required to replace any source, as Kahastok and Nick-D are suggesting me to do: if that would've the case, it would be virtually impossible for us to remove unreliable sources from Wikipedia when they are currently being used to back ideas that are only found in them. My intention is to remove the reference to this unreliable source, and it's being resisted by the same guy who knows it's not reliable. WP:AGF has a limit, as every seasoned editor knows. --Langus (t) 18:54, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Be aware that this is specially relevant now that we know that the Government of the United Kingdom is carrying cyberoperations to shape public's opinion on the Falklands issue, which includes "seeding the internet with false information": [72][73][74] --Langus (t) 19:43, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

What I actually suggested was that you discuss the point on the talk page, and not immediately come running to WP:ANI to throw around wild accusations around just because somebody had the temerity to disagree with you on a matter of content. But given that you are not actually disputing the text, your finding a better source would resolve your issue entirely without any drama and probably without even any disagreement.

The question of reliability is a matter of content (i.e. not relevant here), but it is worth remembering that a source may be reliable in some contexts or for some things, and not reliable in other contexts and for other things.

But when it comes down to it, you're slinging mud shot after mud shot around here, presumably with the aim of getting some to stick on WCM. But your argument for sanctioning him boils down solely to the fact that he disagrees with you on a matter of content. There is nothing else. That is unacceptable behaviour - on your part. You accuse WCM of bad-faith editing - but again, the only basis you give for this accusation is that you disagree with him. Again, that's unacceptable. And it's not even the first time you've done this. Kahastok talk 21:11, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Accusing WCM of being part of some kind of British "cyberoperations" campaign in relation to content which you don't dispute (just the reference provided) is very silly. Nick-D (talk) 00:44, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

I am concerned that even at ANI Langus approaches every discussion in a combative manner. I did not state, as he claims, my own opinion that Dr Graham Pascoe and Peter Pepper were acknowledged as experts in Falkland Islands history, I pointed out that the distinguished historian Sir Lawrence Freedman has acknowledged their expertise [75]. They have in fact been published in the Buenos Aires Herald (21st January 2011) and it certainly seems that the Argentine government takes their work seriously [76],[77],[78],[79],[80]. As Kahastok notes as a source it does take a side, however, they are very well cited and for none-contentious facts often a very convenient online source. Langus' assertion they are unreliable is entirely his opinion, another example of his habit of justifying removal of material by attacking the credibility of the source by speculation. Removal of a source to replace with a {{cn}} is not constructive. The accusation levelled of being a British Government Cyberwarfare operative is just silly (especially as ironically he cites a WP:SPS blog). The bad faith attack on the use of sources is just silly. I ask can something be done about this constant mud-slinging, I'd rather be writing articles that have time wasted at the drama boards. And for information I was 3 in 1963, I am not the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll, I have an alibi as I was at playgroup. WCM_email 17:06, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I noted that the HUMINT operations are in march since 2008, nothing more (and BTW, Todo Noticias, Clarin, etc are reliable sources). If WCM believes I'm accusing him of being part of it, he's just showing his cola de paja, as we say in Rio de la Plata: my point was that Pascoe & Pepper may be very well part of this scheme. They have received attention in the media, mainly through the falklander newspaper Penguin News and the pro-British news portal Mercopress (which reprints articles from the Penguin News). Morevoer, The Buenos Aires Herald re-published Pepper's article because he submitted it to them,[81] in an active effort to push their revisionist interpretation of Falklands' history. It was published alongside with Ambassador Cisnero's response.[82] His last "publication" in this newspaper is a reader's letter.[83] This is not the behavior nor the credentials of an "acknowledged expert". Lawrence Freedman is indeed a proper historian, but his work "The Official History of the Falklands Campaign" is part of the UK Government Official History Series. The same government conducting the cyberoperations. In the very link WCM provided above, it can be seen that "the legislative assembly on the islands has written to the Cabinet Office, which commissioned the work, to complain and to ask for the errors to be corrected". The Cabinet Office in turn contacted Freedman, and commissioned an errata slip.

I ask Kahastok, Wee Curry Monster and Nick-D a question. Suppose I find an article that reads: "Galileo Galilei built his first telescope in 1611 <ref>A self published source</ref>". But, alas, every reliable source I can find on the subject says he did so in 1609.

You are saying that I shouldn't remove a self-published source from Wikipedia without replacing it with another source. WCM says that removing it and leaving in place a {{cn}} tag is "not constructive".

How would you propose to solve this paradox? --Langus (t) 22:35, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Is this normal behaviour on wikipedia?

I don't edit a great deal on wikipedia and any time spent is wasted as Langus simply reverts any edit I do. My last two edits [84],[85] were immediately reverted. Bizarre behaviour as in one case I added an image Langus wanted [86]. Even stranger he left a message demanding I explain myself to him [87]. The talk page discussion is simply weird [88] attacking anyone who supported my edit as a "POV pusher" [89],[90]. I really can't see what the issue was and I don't think Langus can explain himself either. The comments here about Cyberwar, I mean is this guy on the same planet as the rest of us? Like I said I don't edit a great deal and right now I think I'm going to pack it in as a waste of time, I mean what is the point if conspiracy theory nutjobs can run rampant? BedsBookworm (talk) 12:08, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL. You'll learn that one of the biggest problems in Wikipedia are not "conspiracy theory nutjobs" but the alarming level of aggressiveness and incivility.

Regarding you points, it's all there in the conversations for anyone interested to see. To sum it up: I do not revert every edit you do. The image you added came along with a rather controversial content deletion. Two people supported that edit: WCM and Kahastok. My revertions had a rationale, which I explained every time, but you insist on ignoring them and taking the matter personally.

If you know anything about these Peter Pepper and Graham Pascoe that would make them reliable sources, then by at all means bring it forward. --Langus (t) 20:47, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Page moves of DC Metro stations.

I recently closed Talk:Greenbelt station#Requested move 7 February 2015, a multi-move seeking to use a lowercase "s" for the names of various DC Metro stations, as not moved for lack of consensus after a two-month discussion. There were valid points made on both sides, including the existence of sources using both capitalized and uncapitalized forms, so I felt that a clear consensus was needed. At the time of the discussion, the titles with the capitalized "S" were fairly new, resulting from a December 2014 multi-move request primarily aimed at removing "(WMATA station)" from these titles. Following my closure, other editors moved the various pages at issue to the lowercase "s" title, primarily based on WP:USSTATION. I have no dog in this hunt (other than having closed the last discussion, and being a frequent Metro rider from living in the DC Metro area), but as my closure could be deemed involvement, I leave it to the community to determine the appropriate resolution of the matter. Cheers! bd2412 T 15:04, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Probably you meant to notify me and also note that in addition to these moves I opened and continued discussions at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (US stations) designed to break the impasse for which the RM process failed, and linked to it from after the RM you closed noting "After nearly two months, we seem no closer to a clear consensus for any resolution". That would be a constructive place for people who care to weigh in. What was most clear at the RM is that there's a consensus that the capped titles were wrong; we're just not aligned yet on the best fix. Dicklyon (talk) 17:32, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

If you have a problem with the RM result, you should've filed yet another move review. This seems to be a disaster in terms of procedural errors. There was the first request, which moved to the articles to the capitalised title. There was the move review for that request, which you withdrew in the face of opposition. There was this new RM for the lowercased titles by you, which was yesterday closed as no consensus. In merely hours after the RM was closed as "no consensus" to move to the lowercase title, all of the articles involved in the RM had been moved to that title by Dicklyon (talk · contribs). He should've known not to defy the RM result. He should've given up, which would've been the right thing to do, or should've filed a move review or RM. This is absurd. The articles need to go back to where they were. RGloucester — ☎ 18:20, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Someone needs to revert Dicklyon's and my moves of these articles from lowercase "station" back to uppercase "Station". (e.g. move L'Enfant Plaza station back to L'Enfant Plaza Station) since obviously they're against consensus. I didn't realize it until another user brought up the issue at my talk page. Epic Genius (talk) 18:34, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Epic Genius it's the responsibility of you and Dicklyon to revert your own moves> GregKaye 12:02, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I did what I could, but there are some pages that I can't move. Epic Genius (talk) 12:16, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I think another point to make is that an admin moved the Greenbelt station page after a request at WP:RM for uncontroversial moves, despite the fact that it was clearly controversial, there having been numerous RMs and an MR. Surely there's some duty of care for admins to check that "uncontroversial" requests are actually uncontroversial (e.g. by looking at the talk page for RMs) in order to weed out editors looking to game the system after they've failed in other avenues. @Epicgenius: you should be able to move the pages back yourself, unless someone has tagged the redirects created by the move (sadly there are some editors that do this in order to prevent moves back) – certainly the L'Enfant Plaza station should be moveable. Number 57 18:36, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

The re-moves are proceeding rather slowly on my end, so I may need help with the re-moving of the articles. Admin help is needed to move Potomac Avenue station to Potomac Avenue Station. Epic Genius (talk) 18:44, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

It's hard to see how you consider moving back to the least favored titles as progress, but I'm going to step back from this mess now that you've taken that on. Dicklyon (talk) 21:39, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I made that mess? We both commented at WT:USSTATION and you supported the move to lowercase titles while I opposed it. The !vote ended with a decision of no consensus. Yet you moved the pages anyway. Epic Genius (talk) 21:53, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

And you followed up and moved the others, the controversial ones that I had skipped. Dicklyon (talk) 23:54, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, I corrected my stupid mistake of wanting a uniform naming convention. BTW, I only moved five or six of the articles that you skipped, so that's hardly a strong point. Epic Genius (talk) 00:54, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

On a related note, admin help is needed to move Potomac Avenue station back to Potomac Avenue Station because we now have Potomac Ave Station and Potomac Ave station due to a naming error. Epic Genius (talk) 03:16, 7 April 2015 (UTC) There is a RM in progress at Talk:Potomac Avenue station. Epic Genius (talk) 12:15, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Dicklyon and mass moves

Let me quote what I wrote at a recent AE request that failed because the scope of the applicable DS apparently didn't cover this matter.

I've been tempted to file this request for a while. Dicklyon has been on a constant "style crusade" across the encylopaedia since late last year. The two issues that have been most controversial are the removal of the comma from names using the "Jr." or "Sr." suffixes, and the unilateral mass decapitalisation of various articles. His conduct in this area has been nothing but unacceptable. He has had no regard for consensus, and has continually casted WP:ASPERSIONS against editors opposed to his mass changes. His point-of-view on these editors, who he terms "zealots", can be found in this comment, which started a discussion about how to canvas editors that support his viewpoint. His effort is ongoing. Just yesterday, he made a mass of unilateral moves, modifying the redirects so that regular editors could not revert him. When I subsequently asked for a reversion of these edits at WP:RM/TR, Dicklyon began to move war to retain his favoured version, labelling the capitalisation as "junk", and necessitating a second RM/TR request. What do I want from this AE request? I simply want Dicklyon to stop this mass unilateral moves, and to stop gaming the system. There are many, many more that have gone unnoticed. These moves have caused rows at numerous pages. The RM procedure should suffice, and he should know that these changes are controversial. He moves hundreds of little-watched pages a week, with little scrutiny of his edits.

I suggest that all users that comment here read the AE request, which is laden with evidence of similar mass changes by Dicklyon. In many cases he is correct, and in many cases he is incorrect. In either case, he has no concern for consensus and is content to flout it. Something needs to be done. This mess is evidence of larger procedural failings in Wikipedia processes, and proof that Dicklyon simply hasn't got the message. A user proposed at the AE request that Dicklyon be banned from moving pages outside the RM process. I now agree with that notion. Whilst the matter is out of the scope of discretionary sanctions, the community may impose such a restriction. I believe that enough is enough. RGloucester — ☎ 18:43, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support – as proposer. RGloucester — ☎ 20:38, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

They also recommended an interaction ban between us, which would be welcome relief. If you're going to stalk me and try to get me sanctioned, you should at least find moves that are not ones that you supported; makes you sound kind of lawyerish, at best. And note my good-faith efforts to resolve the problem, as linked above. Dicklyon (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

The reverted change to the wording of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (US stations) was not a good-faith effort to resolve a problem, but appears to have been disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:57, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

He admitted as much. He described it as "provoking action". RGloucester — ☎ 03:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Are you saying that it's never OK to try to provoke action? Or that no action is need here? Or what? Is it always wrong to make a point? Was my edit in any was disruptive, in changing the naming convention to reflect actual practice? Why don't you think of a constructive way to work on the problem if you don't like my attempts? Dicklyon (talk) 03:34, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

RGloucester , Dicklyon while valuing both of your contributions on different issues I would prefer to see one or both of you banned or topic banned than for you to have an IBAN in place while still being able to work on the same articles. GregKaye 11:46, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I beg your pardon. I saw the RM/TR request, as that's on my watchlist. I also had the Greenbelt Station page on my watchlist, as I participated in a previous RM there. I participate in many RMs. Once I arrived at the page, It quickly became clear that a disaster was occurring. "Good faith efforts to resolve the problem" mean little considering that you knowingly caused the problem. Please explain, then, why you moved the articles directly after the RM was closed against such a move? What in your mind gave you the right to do such a thing? RGloucester — ☎ 21:54, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Do you recall supporting the overturn of the botched RM that created the mess in the first place? See Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2014_December#Greenbelt_Station. Dicklyon (talk) 00:34, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I do. My opinion on that matter remains the same. That does not mean that one should circumvent consensus. That battle was lost, and the page should've remained where it was. There is no excuse for making a mass move of tens of Washington Metro station articles directly after a move discussion closed as "no consensus". You've already been warned about making mass moves plenty of times. From a purely strategising perspective, it really didn't make sense to make these moves directly after the RM closed, when you should've known that there would've been scrutiny on the articles in question, and that your moves would likely be reverted. Given that you've been around the block a few times, that you're no mass move virgin, what exactly compelled you to make these moves? Was it to make a point, as with when you essentially vandalised the WP:USSTATION guideline, and then edit-warred with a user to "deride the project"? RGloucester — ☎ 02:47, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Please do trout me for that pointy edit. It was a pretty good point though, wouldn't you agree? Not vandalism at all, but an embarrassing reflection of actual practice that people seem unable to deal with and fix. Dicklyon (talk) 15:30, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support a restriction on moves without consensus. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:57, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support a temporary restriction, with the length to be decided later. It's obvious that Dicklyon has done this repeatedly, moving pages against consensus (or the lack thereof). Epic Genius (talk) 12:15, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Obvious? Without evidence? Where have I moved pages against any consensus or against any lack of consensus? Certainly there was no consensus for these articles to have uppercase Station (if you think there was, please try to find it and point it out). Dicklyon (talk) 15:28, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Hmm... let's see. On Talk:Greenbelt Station, the 2nd move request closed as: Not moved. After nearly two months, we seem no closer to a clear consensus for any resolution at 00:29, 6 April 2015. Then, you performed 81 moves that were specifically against the non-consensus. One time is an oversight, two times is probably a mistake, but 81 times is far enough. Epic Genius (talk) 16:21, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Look in the AE request. He has done this before, and has been warned about it before. A notable example that was found in that request is the case of the Blackfriars Massacre. Here is what I had written in the request:

Blackfriars Massacre – What happened at this article is a telling example of Dicklyon-style tactics. In this case, he unilaterally moved the page on 6 December 2014. This move was part of a huge series of concurrent moves, which I subsequently reverted per WP:BRD. The decapitalisation was subsequently discussed at a mass RM, where it was voted down. That didn't stop Dicklyon from coming back months later and trying to do the same thing again. I asked him to file an RM, and reverted his changes. He reverted me again, calling me "silly", and this time modified the redirect so that I could not change it back. I was forced to make a request at RM/TR, which ended the issue".

This is not new behaviour for Dicklyon. I asked above, why, Dicklyon, did you think that making 81 moves like this was acceptable? You've been warned about it before. You must've known you were going to be reverted. Why did you do it? RGloucester — ☎ 16:58, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I did it to try to resolve the problem (which you had supported doing); I was surprised to see the reverted by Epicgenius, especially after he originally jumped in to help complete the process. Most of the people who opposed fixing this said "weak oppose"; there was no significant support for the idea that leaving them at capitalized Station would be better, so I thought this might actually work. When processes fail, one needs to look outside standard processes to try to fix it. I can remind you about how the process failed here again if you need. Your reluctance to let me attempt to fix it still baffles me. Dicklyon (talk) 21:19, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I did it because I originally didn't see the closed RfC. After I saw it, I reverted myself. Epic Genius (talk) 01:01, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Epicgenius, I see, you literally meant "against non-consensus". OK, guilty of that, but not of moving against consensus. Dicklyon (talk) 20:39, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

RG, it's not clear why you think your warring behavior on Blackfriars massacre is so much better than mine, or why your having it moved back to improper capitalization settles the matter. The article does not cite a single source that capitalizes it, and does not use caps in the article, so why the caps in the title? We can still fix this, but your insistence on a full RM discussion on each thing you over-capitalize has been a pain, and I haven't gotten around to this one. Dicklyon (talk) 20:50, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I went ahead and added some sources to Blackfriars massacre, since it had none, and moved it to lowercase again since the sources don't support an interpretation as a proper name. Let's see if anyone is bothered by this. Please don't claim that there was ever an examination that ended in a suggestion that it should be capitalized; it has never been looked at, except by me, and reverted by you. Dicklyon (talk) 02:26, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Wrong. It was part of the mass RM. There was no consensus to move the page at that time. You have made a bold move yet again, skipping the discussion phase of WP:BRD, forcing through your own changes without regard for standard Wikipedia processes. This utter disregard for the RM procedure has not gone unnoticed. RGloucester — ☎ 02:29, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

@BD2412: First of all, I don't understand how you could construe a move discussion closed as "not moved" as meaning anything other than that there was no consensus to move the article. I've pinged the closer, so he can provided his opinion.

Second, I reverted your bold move per WP:BRD. The burden of evidence lies on the person making a bold change, not the person maintaining the status quo. An RM involving the article failed, just as in this case. There clearly wasn't any consensus for you to come back and do the same thing gain, modifying the redirect so that no one could challenge you. I did not "over-capitalise" anything. I did not write the article. I did not place it at the capitalised title. That was the stable title for years, and I simply restored it pending justification. Your attempt at gaining justification in the RM failed, and you never filed another. RGloucester — ☎ 20:58, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, of course we all understand that. It was very explicit in his closing statement where he said we're still no closer to consensus. My point is that the capitalized Station left them even further from consensus that moving them to lowercase would. The lowercase station did at least once achieve consensus at the original Greenbelt move, if you recall, but then the RM got editted and the closer didn't notice and closed to uppercase by mistake. If you know a process for trying to get this fixed finally, please do speak up since my attempts (MR, RM, just doing it) are still being thwarted. Dicklyon (talk) 21:23, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

It's already fixed. The move review determined that there was no problem. The second move request was closed as "not moved". Accept that consensus is against a move, and find something else to do for a while. RGloucester — ☎ 22:09, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Nonsense. No such determination was made, and the recent closer said "After nearly two months, we seem no closer to a clear consensus for any resolution." It's very clearly unresolved; why won't you help fix what you agreed needed to be fixed? Dicklyon (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I am trying to resolve the problem. That's why I'm suggesting that you be banned from page moves outside of the RM process. This will resolve all of our problems. It will allow the moves to be carried out, if they are justified, and it will allow the endless disruption of mass unilateral no-consensus page moves and reverts to end. I hope you realise that even when you are right, your approach destroys any credibility you might've had. Other editors have told you so. This needs to stop. RGloucester — ☎ 22:42, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for prioritizing my credibility over the real problem. Dicklyon (talk) 23:47, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support. What I see from the links here, and from other recent threads on this subject, is that Dicklyon's been attempting to impose his preferred style, regardless of what the vast majority of editors think and wish. It looks as if he cares more about The Truth on formatting/capitalisation/commas than about collaboration with others. Nyttend (talk) 02:11, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

  I have only been trying to correct the flawed RM that capitalized these station articles against the clear support for lowercase at the original RM (see this diff for how that RM got perverted before being closed wrongly). And it is not my preferred style; my preference would be to go back to before the attempt to meet the new WP:USSTATION guidelines, but my impression was that those guideline have consensus, so I was not going to fight that. Just looking for a way to fix the error, or get some attention on it from someone who can. Is anyone listening? Dicklyon (talk) 02:34, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

  Yeah, and you filed a new RM for that. It was closed as not moved (emphasis not mine). So you shouldn't have moved the pages, yet you did anyway. Epic Genius (talk) 02:40, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

  Yes, you have said truth now. By any reasonable standard of normal process, I shouldn't have moved the pages, yet I did anyway. Acknowledged and explained in detail already. Dicklyon (talk) 03:09, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• To demonstrate the clear callousness and lack of WP:HEARing in Dicklyon's heart, one must only look at the Blackfriars Massacre article I mentioned above, now having been promptly moved to the lowercase in defiance of the previous RM. RGloucester — ☎ 02:26, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

  I wonder is there is any substantive objection to this move now that it has sources and it's more obvious that sources support lowercase. It has never been examined in an RM, has it? I can't find a place where anyone has mentioned it in an RM besides me, in a withdrawn RM. Dicklyon (talk) 02:34, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

You need to provide substance, not the other way around. Regardless, it was examined in an RM, the mass RM at the Watts Riots talk page. There was clearly no consensus for the move. The close wrote "closing without prejudice against reopening move requests individually or in small groups as described below. Editors who contributed to this discussion should be pinged to alert them to any subsequent discussions". Where did you notify all of the editors that participated in the mass move of the change to Blackfriars Massacre? Where is the discussion? How many times must you be reverted? RGloucester — ☎ 03:08, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

The substance is there, in the references. The discussion at a previous RM does not exist. Nobody but you has expressed an opinion against this move, and even you have not made any specific claim of a reason, as far as I can find, just a revert edit summary claiming "English failure". Most other massacres and riots were lowercases after being brought to RM; this one was not brought to an RM where it was discussed, just the original multi-RM that was withdrawn over objection of too many to look at. Such are simple facts. Dicklyon (talk) 03:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Plenty of editors took issue with the basis for all the moves, let alone this one. There was clearly no consensus, and regardless, you did not follow the process set about by the closer of the mass RM. Please revert your non-consensus change (again) and start an RM. RGloucester — ☎ 03:32, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Again, nobody objected but you, and you've move warred it again to the uppercase title contradicted by the sources. Just saying... Dicklyon (talk) 04:27, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I didn't "war" anything. The stable title for years is the default title. There is no consensus for a move, and you've not followed any of the appropriate processes. You are ignoring the "D" in BRD, and you are ignoring the previous RM result. Read the RM, and read the objections of editors left and right. Read the statement by the closer. This behaviour by Dicklyon is unacceptable. He has now just moved the article again to his preferred title, contravening the RM, and has modified the redirect to prevent reversion. Dicklyon is so bold as to continue this behaviour amidst an ongoing AN/I thread on the same behaviour. This is a clear message to the community on Dicklyon's part. He doesn't care. He'll do what he wants, regardless of any processes, consensuses, guidelines, or policies. RGloucester — ☎ 05:20, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support any and all restrictions to Dicklyon's mass moves, moves against consensus, and generally disruptive, callous and arrogant behavior toward other editors. Red Harvest (talk) 07:30, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• Note that I just left the following on Dicklyon's talk page:

:::4 2 move reverts in one day at Blackfriars massacre, plus "freezing" the move in place with an edit to the redirect, all while there is an active ANI thread about your moves, plus a long history of edit warring blocks, including two recent ones... something has got to give. I was all set to block you for 3 weeks until I saw CBW's comment here. Although I don't think your participation in a discussion about this is that important a consideration (because whether it's lowercase or uppercase doesn't matter), I'll defer to CBW's judgement.

However, you should be aware that I will block you from editing if you revert anyone else's page move (or revert their revert of your page move) on any page in the next 3 weeks (the duration of the intended block). So that's a 0RR restriction for page moves in April.

This is in lieu of blocking for the single incident mentioned above, not as closure of the wider-ranging ANI thread. Another admin, who spends more time reviewing and closing that thread, may determine that additional constraints are necessary. -Floquenbeam (talk) 18:20, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Please note the last sentence; this is not closing this thread, it's an FYI for people participating in this discussion. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:20, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Also note that I'm an idiot and miscounted; it was actually 2 move reverts yesterday, the other 2 were in March. Apologies to Dicklyon. Still, I think 0RR is still justified, and I'm pleased to see Dicklyon has agreed to it on his talk page. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:49, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

It would of course be much better to apply the same restriction symmetrically to the other warring party. Dicklyon (talk) 21:52, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I am not a "warring party". I did nothing other than revert your change to the Blackfriars Massacre article, which was against a previous RM consensus. You still haven't started an RM to gain consensus. What's more, the particularly slimly way you started moving this article again after I made explicit mention of it above does not bode well for your character. I have never initiated mass moves to a preferred style. Never. All that I did here was revert a change that had no consensus per WP:BRD. I never made any bold moves. Zero. I am not the problem. You are. Do not attack the people that are forced to clean up your messes, as you did to those that were forced to restore tens of "S/station" pages in line with the RM result there. RGloucester — ☎ 21:54, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, very "slimly" of me. As we discussed above, you had claimed to have "fixed" and "settled" something by reverting my move. You called attention to the state of it, which you had left broken. So I fixed it again, and said let's see if anyone besides you objects; you didn't give anyone a chance, so we still don't know. We could do an RM, but it seems like overkill for such a simple fix, don't you think? Not every simple fix needs to be made controversial, though you keep stalking me and doing that. Why do you want to capitalize things when so few sources do? Why do you assert "English failure" when things are rendered in the normal case used by sources? Like I said, you yank my chain, I yank back. I'm not saying I'm proud of it, or that it's not a bit disruptive, just that you are part of this war, too. Dicklyon (talk) 23:44, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

It was resolved. After the first revert, an RM was properly opened by you. There was no consensus for a move, though the closer set out a process by which moves at individual pages could be carried out. You did not follow that process. Instead, you came back months later and tried to move the page unilaterally again, against consensus in the RM. All you needed to do was follow the procedure set out by the closer, namely starting an RM and notifying all participants in the mass RM. If you had done that, there would've been no problem. RGloucester — ☎ 23:48, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

That's right. There was no consensus at that time, and the closer suggested a process that I did not follow for this one since the result would appear to be uncontroversial. I have now opened that RM; perhaps you're right and it will be controversial. Seems like just a waste of time, like the 26 ohters that needed RMs to fix the over-capitalization due to your objections, but let's see: Talk:Blackfriars Massacre#Requested move 9 April 2015. Dicklyon (talk) 02:16, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support Dick has to learn that disrupting Wikipedia to make a point is childish nonsense and he must learn to abide by consensus. His reading of guidelines is not automatically right, as he seems to think, nor is his behavior in any way collaborative. He should be required to use the RM process for any pageoves and abide by the consensus decision regardless if he agrees with it or not. And he must also not come back three months later again just to try to get the answer he wants if consensus disagrees with him. oknazevad (talk) 22:20, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I admit to the childish nonsense part with respect to my recent behavior (or at least that being an acceptable interpretation of my out-of-process attempt to fix a problem), and to my reading of guidelines not necessarily being right. But as far as I know I have not dis-abided any consensus, nor come back to mess with something after consensus was achieved; if you think I have, please point to where. Nobody has shown such a case. Dicklyon (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• Ban him for two hours, that'll teach him. As I've said before (under oath, with Goddess as my witness - or was that a dream?), Dicklyon does good work on Wikipedia, and when he stirs the pot the pot stays stirred. Some mistakes and an adamant attitude, sure, but in the process he has done hundreds if not thousands of good page moves which haven't been questioned, probably considered himself on a roll, and when a few 'Stop' signs pop up he plows right on through them. Given that he's likely learned a little more about 'Stop' signs, I would say that a ban of any length of time be limited to a very small length of time, and maybe ask him to not make controversial moves with a little wider perspective of what might be controversial. But a long ban, as has been implied? In almost all instances, give or take a few capital letters, Wikipedia is better with him here. Randy Kryn 00:06 9 April, 2015 (UTC)

@Randy Kryn: No one suggested a "ban" in the sense that you're talking about. The only thing that was suggested was a ban on making page moves outside of the RM process, which would allow Dicklyon to continue to work in his chosen topic areas without the significant disruption caused by unilateral mass page moves. I do not want Dicklyon "banned" (blocked) either, and recognise his contributions to the project. That's exactly why this solution is the best, as it will ensure that he follows the proper procedures, making his edits beyond reproach. RGloucester — ☎ 00:45, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Good,'and never mind. Randy Kryn 00:12 10 April, 2015 (UTC)

• Support a ban from moving pages outside of the RM process. Keri (talk) 08:18, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose unilateral lockup - it is clear that there are several parties involved in the protracted tug of war, but two stand out in particular as being recalcitrant. It seems rather disingenuous that one party in the ongoing dispute is seeking to outmanoeuvre another by having a unilateral move ban imposed. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 08:15, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose—Is this a continuation of the campaign of stalking and harrassment of Dicklyon by RGloucester? It looks like it. In my view, RGloucester is the disruptor—he has a personal dislike of downcasing, and has stated at MOS he wants to see upcased titles generally, contrary to our long-standing practice. This is taking the campaign far too far, RGloucester. Tony (talk) 10:25, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I have nothing against downcasing, when it is done with community consensus. Without it, there is no justification. I cannot be a disruptor. I have not made hundreds of mass moves against results in RM discussions. I haven't. Never. Who's done that? That's Dicklyon. I have never capitalised an article. Not one. Who's removed capital letters from hundreds of articles, even ones where an RM result rejected that removal? That's Dicklyon. I do not want "upcased articles". There is no evidence of me ever having made such a change. I've started many articles with lowercased titles. All that I want is a level playing field, not one rigged by one editor and his associates. I hope other editors are aware that two above editors are part of a longstanding group, together with Dicklyon, and that they may well have had an influence on the present behaviour. I'd also like to inform that "Tony1's" canard about "longstanding practice" is incorrect. Please see the section below, where it is made apparent that the present wording was introduced unilaterally by Dicklyon in 2011, with no community consensus behind him. It just so happens that other two most strident editors at the time of that change were these two editors. I'd also note that both Tony and Dicklyon were parties to an ArbCom case related to such matters. There is a long pattern here, and it doesn't involve me. In so far as "harassment" is concerned, I was made aware of this thread because AN/I is on my watchlist, and because I had the Greenbelt station page on my watchlist. I had previously participated in the move review there, and in other USSTATION moves. There is a clear problem here. Editors can choose either to listen to Tony and his ilk, or one can look at what uninvolved administrators, such as Nyttend, have said. It is clear that the present problem has very little do with me, if anything. Do not let a group dominate Wikipedia processes. RGloucester — ☎ 13:33, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I feel compelled to correct Tony a bit, while thanking him for his support. He is right that this is "a continuation of the campaign of stalking and harrassment of Dicklyon by RGloucester", as should be evident from the box at the top of this section, quoting his last failed attempt to shut me down. And he's right that RGloucester is on record for his "personal dislike of downcasing", as well as for statements of support from God in his effort to capitalize things he considers to be proper names. But the issue here is a bit different, since it's a case where he stated his explicit support for downcasing to fix the procedural error that capitalized these station titles, twice. The point is that even though he supported the substance of the case fixes that I did in my admittedly out-of-process moves, he took the opportunity of this incident report to pile on and complain about everything he could in another attempt to get me stopped from doing the sort of routine and usually uncontroversial moves that I usually do. If you look back at all my case-related RMs since December, you'll see that almost all were necessitated by his reverts of my routine fixes, and that of those the vast majority finally settled in favor of lowercase, since that's what both the sources and our MOS and most of our editors support. Have I taken him to task for challenging these and causing so much work by so many to fix what was so obvious? Well, maybe I complain a bit, but it's his God-given right to drag me through the process, so he does.

Anyway, having stipulated that the basic accusation of out-of-process moves is true, and having accepted a voluntary ban on page moves through the end of April, I'm back working on an RFC process to get this fixed the way both of us supported (see Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (US stations)#RfC: some proper talkin' about station title conventions where he now claims there's no problem). I have refuted the accusations of those who say I have made moves "against consensus", which nobody has been able to show; in the particular case of my out-of-process moves, there was a clear plurality for lowercase over uppercase, and enough other distractors that the closer declared it far from consensus, which is fair. But lacking consensus there, maybe we should go back to the last time we had anything like a consensus, which was unanimous here, and fix it. But my long-time enemies RGloucester and Born2cycle oppose fixing it, just to annoy me I think. What do you think? Should we go ahead and punish me some more for my efforts, or is working with these guys punishment enough? Dicklyon (talk) 17:44, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

This is outrageous. Talk about WP:ASPERSIONS. My request at AE only "failed" because of the scope of the DS. The evidence was valid then, as now. I am not "stalking" anyone. If you stopped causing disruption across so many pages, we would not be here. As I asked before, what in the heck compelled you to make these stupid moves? You still haven't answered. The only thing that I can think is that you wanted this kind of dust up to occur. You must've known what was going to happen. Regardless, now that we're here, the evidence is clear. Your moves are neither routine nor uncontroversial. This not a pile on. It is not my fault that your behaviour has been below par, and blaming me for your own problems indicates a lack of responsibility on your part. You are wrong to say that most were "settled" in lowercase. Many were rejected, and others were supported by myself. In other cases, as with the Watts Riots move, you only succeeded after launching multiple RMs in quick succession, tiring out those that were forced repeatedly oppose you. You moved against consensus. The consensus in the RM was to "not move". If you wanted to move the articles, or disagreed with the closure, you should've filed a move review. What is so hard to understand? I agree, those articles should've been lowercased. However, consensus was against it. This is more ignoring consensus on your part. You've done this since day one, and there are pages of evidence as such. You have railed on about "zealots" and people who oppose your "routine" moves. I think you need to understand that your moves are not routine. The fact that most of them are carried out on the basis of one small line of text that you yourself inserted into the MoS without any kind of community backing says a lot about your character. If you want to make moves, please do so in the manner that everyone else is required to do. I may take my orders from God, but you don't take orders from anyone. You simply do what you want to do, regardless of consensus, and rail on about "zealots" (more recently) and about "domains" (in 2011). Never mind that the 2011-era comment was made right after you yourself inserted a no-consensus phrase in the MoS to give yourself a leg up in RMs. I wonder, at that point, who was actually part of a "domain" or a "local consensus"? The actual consensuses of editors at article talk pages, or the unilateral MoS change by Dicklyon? RGloucester — ☎ 18:03, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

To be clear, he did not accept a "one month ban on page moves". He is referring to the restriction imposed by Floquenbeam, which is WP:0RR on unilateral page moves for one month. Floq explicitly said that this was not a substitute for the closure of this discussion. Again, the only thing being asked for here by me and other editors above is a temporary (maybe 6 months) ban on unilateral moves. Dicklyon would be free to move pages through the usual RM channels, as with everyone else. His attitude is clear, the evidence is clear. Let's curtail the disruption and get back to work. RGloucester — ☎ 18:09, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support an indefinite topic ban from page moves - absolutely fine to use WP:RM. GiantSnowman 18:11, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support, regrettably. This is disruptive, and apparently it isn't going to stop. No problem with starting move requests through WP:RM.--Cúchullain ^t/c 02:56, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

WTF do you mean by "it isn't going to stop". It has stopped some time ago. What are you referring to? Look at all the good-faith discussion and attempts to resolve the problem. Dicklyon (talk) 03:16, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

And please continue engaging in good faith discussion and problem resolution, as well as the RM process. But the mass moves are disruptive and it's a pattern with you. Your comments suggest it's not going to stop, so unfortunately preventative steps need to be taken to preserve everyone's sanity.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:10, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support indefinite topic ban on page moves, RM is fine. Enormous amount of recent discussion (dozens of threads on boards and talkpages) related to this one user's single-minded approach to MOS issues. User has been blocked several times recently for this approach. I have yet to read a statement by Dicklyon accepting any part in this set of conflicts. It's always somebody else's fault, and editor seems often to unfairly characterize and personalize discussion. BusterD (talk) 03:39, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

  Buster, "dozens of threads on boards and talkpages" is not misbehavior. Especially on talk pages. Please either strike "boards" or say what you're referring to; if it's just RGloucester's harrassment campaign against me, that's not something I should be dinged for, don't you think? And if you read below you'll see that I have completely admitted to the wrongdoing of which I am accused, along with an explanation of why, which, yes, does include discussion of some faults of others. Are there parts of that account that you think are unfair or inaccurate? Please say; your vague accusations are annoying. As for the 2 blocks in the last 4 years, one was Dreadstar blocking me for reverting his hatting of a discussion I was trying to participate in (nothing to do with the current accusations; this edit in an RM discussion unrelated to MOS); the other was an edit war with Randy Kryn, short of 3RR, on some case issues that ending up being settled by the community the way I suggested; I'm not saying I should have done those things, but these blocks do not really support your accusation of "blocked several times recently for this approach". Dicklyon (talk) 04:20, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

  I offer into evidence Dicklyon's above response to my support of the proposal, personalizing and mischaracterizing my comments. My mention of the multitude of discussions relating to this user's choices was not intended to represent misbehavior, but instead clearly demonstrate the editor cannot accurately judge whether a move will be controversial without discussion. I have no reason to doubt the editor's good faith, but his judgment as it regards page moves has been shown to be poor. I'm not saying the editor can't move pages; I'm just saying he needs outside opinion in order to successfully make that call. BusterD (talk) 04:35, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

  That's some evidence! Thanks for clarifying that you want to punish me for bad judgement and for engaging in RM discussions. Dicklyon (talk) 04:42, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

  I rest my case and appreciate Dicklyon's assistance in making it. My interest is neither personal nor punitive. My interest is in preventing all the move wars caused by his rapid, undiscussed pagemoves. I'm clearly not alone in my concern. For the sake of moving this discussion forward, I'll deign not to reply further to Dicklyon's hectoring. BusterD (talk) 04:52, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support restriction from page moves without a RM discussion. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:53, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

what in the heck compelled you to make these stupid moves?

I thought this was asked and answered, but RGloucester insists in his tirade above that I explain myself better. So I'll try.

A couple of points:

1. I agree that these were out-of-process moves, a case of WP:IAR on my part, for sure, as I have amply admitted.
2. I am not sorry I did it; possibly I'm stupid about that, but I did it in good faith.

So what compelled me, and why am I not sorry? Am I just pushing a personal preference for lowercase? Did my move cause any trouble? Let's look closely.

What "compelled" me was a combination of a need and an opportunity:

• The need was based on the original corrupt RM discussion that moved these pages to uppercase, and the raft of other RMs that cited that one as precedent and closed without waiting for the move review, even though I had asked for a hold until then. The corruption was very simple: this edit by BDD converted the support for lowercase to look like support for uppercase.
• The opportunity was based on the recent RM that closed with no consensus, but in which by any measure the lowercase was favored over uppercase; the lack of consensus was specifically "weak" opposition from BDD and two seconding that, and from a couple who were evidently not paying attention and saw the situation as "not broken", and from those who wanted a different kind of name like before the moves to uppercase Station, rather than either upper or lower case. So now we have a situation where the support for lowercase is clearly still strong compared to uppercase, and a list of red links sitting there ready to implement the recent apparent consensus decided at WP:USSTATION; even RGloucester registered his support for fixing this to lowercase. So, there was an opportunity to just do the moves on most of them, which would implement the majority will on the case question, and see if anyone would object.

Given this need and opportunity, and lacking any prospect of getting the usual RM process to do anything sensible, I felt "compelled" to make the moves. So I did. And I also started conversations about what I did, both below the closed RM and on the corresponding naming conventions page, in case anyone wanted to either help or object. Dicklyon (talk) 21:13, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

So what happened? At first, the only one who showed any notice was Epicgenious, who jumped in and helped, in his usual unaware naive way, causing trouble as he had done before in the other direction on 5 Jan. (see [[Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(US_stations)#Determining_official_station_name]). By taking his consistency campaign to asking for "uncontroversial" moves at WP:RM he provoked WP's immune system to react to this out-of-process change before we could actually see whether anyone who cared about the articles would react. See User talk:Anthony Appleyard#Greenbelt "s/Station". So, busted! Here we are, having given RGloucester more ammo to complain about me, even though this time it is just a technical IAR type thing in implementing a fix that was favored by him and by the majority of those who expressed an opinion on the case problem.

What trouble was caused? Epicgenius spent a lot of time moving articles, and moving them back. I don't feel sorry for him, given how much he has contributed to the problem over the last several months. And a bunch of us spent a lot of time at AN/I. For that noise and distraction I apologize. But not for my attempt to fix a problem that has been oddly intractable so far.

And what next? Will all this attention bring any neutral and knowledgeable editors to actually look into the problem and try to help fix it? Or will I just be punished for trying? For all those who buy in to RG's bullshit and want to help him shut me down, consider contributing instead to a solution of the problem I was trying to work on, at the new RFC at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (US stations)#RfC: some proper talkin' about station title conventions. Dicklyon (talk) 20:56, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate the explanation. However, for an editor as well versed in the RM process as you, I cannot see how you thought this was acceptable. I still cannot see what the problem is. Yes, I agree that the original RM was flawed. However, the move review determined otherwise, and that's that. The process did what it did, and the result should've been accepted. However, you filed a new RM. Not surprisingly, this resulted in more stalemate. Fine. There was no justification for the subsequent unilateral move. You must understand, Wikipedia has a long history of successive requested move proposals, usually with a significant period of time between them. Your friend Born2Cycle has often been a "participant" in such discussions, so imagine you must be aware of them. You never wait, however You simply ram through your changes, and that's your problem. You think of the articles' "incorrect" capitalisation as an urgent problem that must be dealt with now, when it isn't. If you actually followed the standard processes, your moves would never receive this much attention. If you waited a few months and opened an RM, perhaps a new consensus would develop. Perhaps, in the meantime, you could go to WP:RS/N, where they'd certainly verify that station sign pylons should not be used for these matters. There are a thousand potential options in the Wikipedia toolkit, and most people follow them. Why can't you? That's exactly why the proposed restriction is ideal. All it does is ensure you follow the procedures. If you follow them, you'll have no trouble with anyone, let alone me. There will be no ramming, merely the usual Wikipedia processes. That's what we need here, that's why I've proposed, and that's why I believe it should be enacted. It will do no great harm to you. In fact, I imagine it will assist you in your drive. RGloucester — ☎ 21:30, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

"the move review determined otherwise" is false. Stop making shit up. See Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2014_December. I withdrew it after two months of not being able to find an admin to close it, after trying at requests for closure for a month or more, and after Calidum complained that it was still open when we tried to move on. It was after another two months of not being able to get an admin to close the new RM that I made my "stupid" move. And "If you follow them, you'll have no trouble with anyone, let alone me" is just a lie. Dicklyon (talk) 21:41, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

By the way, reviewing that Move Review at Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2014_December, I see that the original closer proposed: "I'd hope that a compromise position--e.g., opening a new move request to lowercase titles, and having 'no consensus' default to moving the pages to lowercase titles--might be sufficient in this case. Dekimasu". Now I feel doubly stupid, as I could have just asked the new and old closers to look at this and do the right thing. I'll ping them and see if they will now, which would resolve all this. @BD2412: @Dekimasu:. Dicklyon (talk) 21:48, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

It "determined otherwise" in the sense that it was not closed in favour of our view on the matter. Leaving it be would've been a wiser decision. As I said above, patience is a useful virtue in these matters. As for the words of Dekimasu, I'm not sure anyone agreed to that. If it were to be done, it should've been introduced at the start of the new RM. We can see what others say on that matter. RGloucester — ☎ 21:52, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure I treasure your hindsight about what would have been wiser and what some good virtues are, but why not just take this opportunity to support a resolution? Dicklyon (talk) 22:51, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Epicgenius spent a lot of time moving articles, and moving them back. I don't feel sorry for him, given how much he has contributed to the problem over the last several months. OHMYGOSH!!! I have contributed to the problem?!?! I really didn't know that!! Wait, I thought it was supposed to just be a RM two RMs four RMs and three RfCs!!!! Total time spent moving the articles both times: 30 minutes. Total time wasted at AN/I instead of doing something useful: countless hours. Last I checked, this was just a guideline, not a policy, so while it should be followed, it doesn't need to be enforced like the end of the world. Epic Genius (talk) 02:26, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

You contributed by moving things without knowing what was going on. First to uppercase, then to lowercase, then you felt compelled to go to uppercase again. Without having any opinion of your own, you caused a lot of thrashing in the pursuit of consistency, for the sake of your template. No big deal, just pointing out that I don't feel sorry for the time you wasted. Dicklyon (talk) 03:12, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

No, I'm pointing out the specific phrase how much he has contributed to the problem over the last several months. No big deal, just pointing out that you still moved against decision. Epic Genius (talk) 03:17, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I did, as I admitted. Dicklyon (talk) 04:23, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Closing error?

By the way BD2412, though I do appreciate your good-faith effort in closing this thing at Talk:Greenbelt Station#Requested move 7 February 2015, the longest ever backlogged RM item, probably, that nobody wanted to touch, I do think you got it wrong when you said "After nearly two months, we seem no closer to a clear consensus for any resolution." If you look closely, I think you'll see that we are indeed quite a bit closer on how to fix the chaos that BDD created with this ubelievably stupid and out-of-process edit back in December that caused that RM to close to the opposite case of what most of its supporters supported. In the recent RM, you can neglect the ones who were complaining about their dislike of the WP:USSTATION guideline more generally, and take it to just be about the case fixing question as intended (that is, ignore the objections of DanTD and SmokeyJoe, as well as the spurious procedural objection by Calidum, as orthogonal to the question that the RM is about). Then consider the objections to lowercasing. BDD himself wrote "If a bunch of editors agree with me, cool, but otherwise, I don't want the closer giving this comment too much weight." This was followed by two more "Weak Oppose per BDD" (one even struck out his Oppose to change it to Weak Oppose). The other three opposes seem to prefer uppercase, but give no coherent reasons; just "NOTBROKEN" and "local differences". Obviously "NOTBROKEN" means they haven't been paying attention, since the process that capitalized these was massively broken.

Six respondents supported fixing the case error per WP:USSTATION, backing out of the original corrupted RM. On the basis of either numbers or strength of argument, it is clear that we are closer to a resolution to fix this.

In light of this, I went out on a limb, and went ahead with the fix to see who would object. Originally, nobody did. Epicgenious jumped in to help. Then Dohn joe noticed when Epicgenius started on the more controversial ones (which I had not touched), and bugged him, and he started going the other way. It finally came out that Epic's only or main concern is not the title per se, just his ability to manipulate it in his Template:WMATA stations, which doesn't deal with case variability. So he was frantic.

So, DB2412, any ideas what to try next to get out of this mess? Are you suggesting we just leave the massive breakage that BDD caused by changing case in an RM after people had supported his original proposed move to lowercase station? I did try to modify WP:USSTATION to say we would just leave it broken, but that got reverted as the pointy snarkiness that it was. Maybe you can come up with something better, like revising your close to put an end to this nonsense. Dicklyon (talk) 03:05, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

The appropriate way to challenge an RM result is to file a move review, not to write essays at AN/I or unilaterally overturn the closure. RGloucester — ☎ 03:10, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I know, and we saw how well that worked last time, when after weeks of comments and weeks of request for closure we abandoned it since that WP:MR is a deserted wasteland where nothing happens. Are you suggesting I try that again? I could, but I'm told it's polite to give the closer a chance to rethink the close first, so here we are. Dicklyon (talk) 03:32, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I am suggesting that you follow the established processes. If you had questions about the closure, you should've asked the closer on his talk page. You should not've moved 80 some-odd articles against that closure. RGloucester — ☎ 03:37, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, lots of should'ves. I already confessed to ignoring some rules and making a bunch of out-of-process moves. So if you have no substantive reason to think anything I did was actually a bad thing, and it's just about following rules, move along. You did after all support all these moves. Dicklyon (talk) 04:58, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

If someone argues for something per support in a guideline, it is perfectly reasonable to counter by criticising the guideline. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, of course, and I am not objecting to your objection. Just noting that since it was orthogonal to the question, it does not necessarily detract from resolving that problem; it still leaves the problem you object to, either way. Dicklyon (talk) 03:32, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Um.. OK. Good. There's a lot of fuss, and I am not entirely sure what fuss this one is. You pinged me, but I am not sure if you are asking for my input? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:50, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• To be clear, there were legitimate arguments on both sides of the proposal, including citations that could reasonably be interpreted as showing that "Station" was part of the proper name of the locations. Where the policy allows for flexibility in light of the evidence, and the evidence is inconclusive, then you need consensus to effect a change. In this case, there were eight editors supporting the proposed move and eight editors opposing the proposed move, which is hardly consensus for any change of the status quo. bd2412 T 03:37, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

  I believe you may have hallucinated the "citations that could reasonably be interpreted as showing that 'Station' was part of the proper name of the locations"; if I missed it, can you point it out? But my main point is that we ARE much closer to a consensus to fix the problem that BDD's outrageous out-of-process subterfuge created, even if there's not quite a clear consensus yet; which is why I attempted to resolve it by an out-of-process fix. Thanks again for closing it anyway. Dicklyon (talk) 04:32, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Dick, please tone down your language. You seem to be the only one fuming about my "outrageous" "subterfuge", which in fact was a good faith edit based on the course of that original discussion. Please keep the pejoratives to yourself. You'd think I was committing BLP violations left and right, not preferring a different capitalization than you, where both forms are acceptable. --BDD (talk) 14:25, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't mean to suggest that I thought it was not done in good faith, or that it was subterfuge, but it was invisible to the closer who didn't see the switcharoo there. It was outrageously out-of-process to convert the support for lowercase station to look like support for uppercase, and it caused the mess that we are still unable to find a way to recover from. Yes, I am the only one fuming, and I'm only fuming because I'm weak and fall for RGloucester's baiting and thwarting my every attempt to make progress. I think maybe I'll just start ignoring the station mess, and let you all live with this stupid thing you did that became precedent for continuing overcapitalization. Dicklyon (talk) 14:50, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Dick, if you really feel that these articles should be moved, file another RM or move review. Don't unilaterally move the pages, and don't move them against consensus. Epic Genius (talk) 14:56, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Do you hear how stupid you're being with those admonitions? Obviously the RM process did not and cannot be the fix here, due to the continued confusion caused by people who want to use it to discuss other problems than the one I am trying to fix. And the MR process never does anything. And I would never move pages against a consensus; never have, never will, so stop implying I would or did unless you're going to show where. Dicklyon (talk) 15:26, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Fortunately for me, I put in earbuds while editing Wikipedia. And a non-consensus is still a consensus to "not do anything". Nothing to do unless you want to have a new, useless, protracted RfC about what the new names for the articles should be. Epic Genius (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

No, a failure to find consensus is not a consensus to "not do anything"; never has been that. Dicklyon (talk) 22:51, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

The closer has made clear that "not moved" means "not moved". There was no consensus in favour of move, meaning that a move should not've been carried out. RGloucester — ☎ 23:04, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I have already agreed and stipulated that I shouldn't have made those moves, per normal processes. But I did not move against any consensus. There was no consensus to move, and no consensus to not move. Dicklyon (talk) 23:49, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Did you even read where it said "not moved" in the RM? This means that there was since there was no consensus to move, there was a lack of consensus at all, which follows that the next decision would be not to move. Epic Genius (talk) 23:59, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

The pylon outside the Federal Triangle station

To answer the earlier question, it was noted in the discussion by User:BDD that the fully capitalized form is used on the pylons, for example the one pictured to the right. Whatever interpretation may be given to this, it is a legitimate basis to believe that this is the proper full name of the station. bd2412 T 16:40, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

However, "Federal Triangle" is the only actual proper name. The station named "Federal Triangle" may have the "Station" in its name capitalized in some sources, lowercase in other sources, and missing altogether in yet other sources. Epic Genius (talk) 16:58, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, hard to fathom that anyone fell for or repeated that idea that the pylon makes it a proper name. What next, articles on Police Station, Nurse Station, First Aid Station, Fingernail Glamming Station, Eye Wash Station, etc. that I pointed out on signs at the USSTATION RFC? Dicklyon (talk) 20:47, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I'll repeat what I said at WT:USSTATION. Nice try. The difference is that "Nurse" isn't actually a proper name, and neither is "Police", "Eye Wash", "First Aid", "Fingernail Glamming", or "Train". Epic Genius (talk) 23:04, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Wait, you're saying that appearing capitalized on a sign does not make them proper names? What was I thinking? Dicklyon (talk) 23:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

This is irrelevant. This is not the correct venue for discussing the RM result. Either file a new RM or file a move review. Do something. Discussing it here accomplishes nothing. RGloucester — ☎ 23:31, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

"Do something" is what brought us here. Why don't you open the next RM or MR? You want this fixed, too, don't you, as you said in a few places already? Dicklyon (talk) 23:49, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• In light of this, I went out on a limb, and went ahead with the fix to see who would object. Originally, nobody did. Epicgenious jumped in to help. Then Dohn joe noticed when Epicgenius started on the more controversial ones (which I had not touched), and bugged him, and he started going the other way. It finally came out that Epic's only or main concern is not the title per se, just his ability to manipulate it in his Template:WMATA stations, which doesn't deal with case variability. So he was frantic. To be clear, no I was not "frantic", I just wasn't notified of the RM's closure and rushed to correct my error. The mass renaming has little to do with the template, just that it creates a lot of holey redirect loops for no reason. Epic Genius (talk) 23:55, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

All of this came about because of two requests at WP:RFPP.

I left a message at User talk:RGloucester. I left the exact same message at User talk:Dicklyon. A few minutes later I had to leave a second message at RGloucester, who replied with this and then removed everything while indicating that I should not post on his talk page again. That's his choice and I have no problem with it.

RGloucester then left a message at my talk page to which I replied. As you can see, RGloucester had some concerns about what I had said. He asked me to "rescind these attacks and apologise, lest you be blocked yourself."

Now, obviously I don't see any personal attack there and I'm not going to rescind anything and I'm not apologising either. However, if anyone feels that I did make a personal attack then please block me. I'm going to be gone for about 3 hours. This is a real 3 hours and not back in 10 minutes because someone replies here.

Notified the two editors, Dicklyon and RGloucester. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 22:44, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

This is a superfluous thread. If you want history and context, it should appear in the above and extant thread. If you were not aware of that thread, that might be why you were unaware of the nature of your comments. Please read it, and all will be clear. I would suggest that this be merged with the other thread. RGloucester — ☎ 22:46, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of moving this thread to a subsection of the existing thread. If you want to understand why I consider these remarks "personal attacks" you can read my response above. In short, a posted a note about Dicklyon's earlier behaviour at the Blackfriars Massacre page above. Following that posting, Dicklyon promptly moved the page to his preferred title, in retaliation for my posting. I reverted, in line with the previous RM result and BRD. He then reverted me again, modified the redirect, and necessitated a RM/TR request. Nothing I did was out of order, and suggestions that I should be blocked for reverting clearly disruptive page moves is nothing less than an attack. Now that I realise that Mr Weather was not aware of this thread, I understand why he would've made such an error. Luckily, this is now resolved. RGloucester — ☎ 22:52, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Sometimes one gets a bit strident when trying to right perceived wrongs. Happens to us all. Take the warning, admit the problem, and get back to work. Dicklyon (talk) 23:07, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I am as pure as a lily, and I hardly want to be perceived otherwise. I wonder who's the strident one here? The one who moved the article, after it had just been brought up at AN/I, or the one who maintained the status quo in line with our policies? RGloucester — ☎ 23:10, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, very hard to tell the difference; and I wonder what policies you mean. Dicklyon (talk) 23:20, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

How many times must I repeat myself? I think it is very clear what I mean. Other editors above understood, and I imagine you can too. Don't be coy. RGloucester — ☎ 23:33, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

You may stop repeating yourself whenever you wish. And I will stop being coy when you stop claiming your side of the war was directed by policy. Dicklyon (talk) 00:07, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

CambridgeBayWeather, in response to your original question, nothing in your messages can be read as a personal attack. Your warning two users to stop move warring on a page (and warning that they may be blocked if they continue) is not a personal attack, it is an administrator doing an administrator's job. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 23:46, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

No, it is not. I did not "move war". An administrator properly admonishes the person doing wrong, not the person doing what an administrator should've done (and did eventually do), and protects the page to stop disruption. Please cease with these personal attacks. RGloucester — ☎ 23:51, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Are you saying that I am engaging in personal attacks by assessing CBW's message as not being a personal attack? That sounds like a personal attack to me, please desist, lest you be blocked from editing. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 23:56, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

You implied that I was "move warring". That's a personal attack, as it is a pure fiction. Please do not repeat falsities. RGloucester — ☎ 00:49, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Please don't misrepresent what I said. I did not imply you were move warring, I explicitly said that you were move warring, because you were move warring. That isn't a personal attack. Now would you please cut the holier than thou BS, CambridgeBayWeather asked for an opinion and I gave it. Your disagreeing with it doesn't make it a personal attack. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 01:26, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I was not "move warring". I do not "disagree" with you, for there is nothing to "disagree" about. There was no "move warring". I did not "war". I made a grand total of ONE revert of Dicklyon at that page yesterday. One. Over the months where he has tried the same tactics, I've implored him to file an RM. I've been forced to go to RM/TR multiple times, because he freezes article at his preferred title by modifying redirects. The only one waging a war is him. If he had simply filed an RM, as was appropriate, we would not be here now. The article would be at one title or another, consensus would be clear, and there would be none of this. Do not put any burden on me. I've not done anything. RGloucester — ☎ 01:42, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• This is a continuation of problematic behavior by RGloucester (e.g., see previous block for behavior), especially the templating of an admin, the accusations of personal attacks when there are no actual ones, and the threat of blocking someone. This is on top of the refactoring of Dickyon's RPP (mentioned here) as well as other unbecoming behavior in this ANI. In my opinion, RGloucester needs to immediately stop this sort of behavior. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:28, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I removed his "RPP request" because it wasn't an actual request. It was a disruptive attempt at mocking me. I filed this RPP request to stop the nonsense going on at that page. Dicklyon quickly followed with this, copying my wording. I removed his duplicate request here, specifying as a "nonsense request" because it was a nonsense, and because it was nothing other than retaliatory disruption. CBW decided to "decline" both requests here. However, note that Dicklyon continued with his retaliatory mocking, removing my request after CBW had declined it, restoring his own "request" without CBW's decline, and copying my edit summary. Please, scrutinise what I did here. It is clear that I'm not that one who was being disruptive. I "templated" the administrator because he threatened to block me without grounds, which was a form of chilling behaviour. The actual sequence of what happened makes it clear that I was not wrong. RGloucester — ☎ 01:38, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I see you are right that Dicklyon added the RPP after you did and it did seem to be in bad faith. I don't think you removing it was the most prudent given all the turmoil around that page, but it's at least somewhat understandable given the discussion above. I've struck that part from my original comment. Thank you for pointing that out. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:43, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Is it bad faith to second his request but in favor of my own version instead of his? I was serious. Protecting the correct version seemed like a good idea. Dicklyon (talk) 02:24, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

It wasn't "my version", it was the version that was stable for years and maintained in the Watts riots mass RM. RGloucester — ☎ 02:37, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:RGloucester, I started a new section because this was about my actions rather than yours or Dicklyon. If I had seen this edit that User:Dicklyon made then they too would have got a follow up warning. As to being templated I really don't care if people want to use templates or not. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 02:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

In fact, Dicklyon is the origin of this whole calamity

Having read a comment by Randy Kyrn, I decided to do a little digging and see how the present lead of MOS:CAPS came to be. I was shocked at what I found. The sole justification used in many of Dicklyon's moves and elsewhere was added by him, was never put to a community RfC, and clearly had no consensus in the relevant but brief talk page discussion. I would remind editors that the WP:CONSENSUS policy requires a very strong consensus for changes community guidelines. How the heck can what's been going on here be tolerated? It seems as if subterfuge has been ongoing since at least 2011. Dicklyon has abused Wikipedia to promote his own preferences. He likes to claim that an item must be "100%" capitalised to remain that way, as that's how he defines "consistent". Guess what, he's the one that authored the sufficiently loose "consistent" phrasing, so as to ensure that he would always have success. This is gaming the system, if I've ever seen it. Please, tell me what there is to be done about this. These mass moves, carried out by him, are based in a sentence written by him, one that was never approved by community consensus. This pattern of behaviour shows right through. RGloucester — ☎ 03:28, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

If you read the discussion that you linked, you'll see that I never advocated a 100% sources criterion. "Consistently" was clearly accepted as meaning significantly more than "majority", however, as should be clear there. Dicklyon (talk) 03:50, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

It was not "clearly accepted" as anything. There was no community discussion on this major change to the guideline, nor any advertisement. Even in that individual discussion itself, ignoring community consensus, there was no clear consensus to implement the change, and no consensus as to what "consistently" means. In other words, it is just loose enough to allow you get away with whatever the heck you want, to the point where it might as well be a "100%" requirement. RGloucester — ☎ 04:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

This was not a major change. The avoidance of unnecessary capitalization dates from 2007 or earlier. This minor change took out an odd section inserted in 2009 by permabanned editor Pmanderson, as the discussion link clearly shows. Dicklyon (talk) 04:39, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

It was a major change. The question is not whether we should avoid unnecessary capitalisation, as everyone would agree with that principle. The question is: "What is unnecessary?" Your change introduced the "consistency in sources" wording, which was never present before. In the Pmanderson 2009-era wording, the lead merely said to consult Wikipedia:Proper names. The addition of the "general principles" section took place here, and merely said to "follow common usage", which is a much more sensible and usual wording. Prior to that change, the page said nothing about "consistency in sources" or "common usage". In fact, the only guidance about what was a proper noun was "consult Wikipedia:Proper names". Your change completely changed the guideline, and also essentially depreciated another guideline, i.e. Wikipedia:Proper names, which is no longer even linked on the MOS:CAPS page. This is a travesty. It is pure gaming the system. The fact that no one has caught this until is amazing. RGloucester — ☎ 05:07, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

It was a minor change, and a measured compromise between the anti-MOS types like Pmanderson who favored "follow the sources" and the more theoretical and principled types like Noetica who favored a more strict determination of what's a proper name. Noetica tried to change it later, in a time of relative turmoil, and found a backlash for it. Pmanderson fought him via a sock puppet after being banned, and htat didn't work out well for him. The "consistently capitalized in sources" concept was discussed on the talk page, before and after the change, and found no real objection. I think it was a pretty successful compromise, though I agree it has its problem in its ambiguity of interpretation by people like you who take 50% to be "consistently", which is clearly not how it was interpreted in the conversation at the time. Feel free to propose some other criterion for how to decide when caps are unnecessary, but do not accuse me of anything but implementing consensus here. Dicklyon (talk) 05:18, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Where was the community RfC for this change? What uninvolved person assessed consensus on the talk page? I'd say that any of the administrators here who looked at that discussion would not've closed it in favour of this change. It clearly did not meet the level of consensus required to change a major guideline. It was not "measured", it was not a "compromise", it was not "minor". The fact that it is not "minor" is made apparent by sheer amount of unilateral moves you've made with solely that wording as your justification. You have gamed the system from then. You added a change without any kind of consensus, certainly not the kind required for a change to the guidelines, deprecated another guideline, and then went on to make tons and tons of unilateral page moves on the basis of that change over the course of years, using that wording as your sole justification. There was no consensus for this change, and it should be removed. The old version should be restored. There is no way that this can be viewed as anything other than an attack on the Wikipedia community and consensus. RGloucester — ☎ 05:27, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

The actual calamity was started here. Dicklyon (talk) 05:29, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• Personally, I'd rather the two of you either kept it on your user talk pages, or avoided each other. When it starts getting out into project space, it becomes disruptive. — Ched :  ?  11:14, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with me. I posted it here so that all the project could see the travesty that has been caused by Dicklyon, since 2011. What will the community do to fix it? The evidence is plain to see. The system has been rigged. Please, administrators, fix this grave error. RGloucester — ☎ 13:22, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

RGloucester—I wish you would desist from this incessant campaign against Dicklyon. It is astounding how far you will go to discredit factual evidence concerning sources ... and then the meaning of the opening of MOSCAPS ... anything to "win" your argument. Tony (talk) 10:27, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I haven't an argument. I don't need one. The evidence is clear. The system has been rigged with no consensus changes to the MoS. I'm not the one mass moving pages to decapitalised/capitalised titles. RGloucester — ☎ 13:38, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Some further review of the previous close

User:Dicklyon has pointed out that the December 2014 close, while based on a consensus for the pages to be moved away from their titles at the time, did not establish a clear consensus as to whether the target pages should capitalize "station". I would propose a broader RFC to determine that question, which does not assume a preference for either. Granted, those are a bit harder to close, but there should not be a presumption of a default were there is no longstanding title. I know that sometimes it seems like we retread certain issues tirelessly, but there is value to getting the most thoroughly vetted result. bd2412 T 16:15, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I think we should revert all this mess and move back to the titles as of December 2014, before the RfC, then host another RfC. Epic Genius (talk) 16:58, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

That may be the fairest and soundest way to do things. bd2412 T 17:22, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

That seems to be consistent with the RFC ongoing at WT:USSTATION#RfC: some proper talkin' about station title conventions, but not with the result of the original move and move review.

I went further and pointed out the words of the original RM closer, in that Move Review. He wrote:

Closer comments: I am not able to be very active at the moment, so it's good that so much discussion was able to be done here; I don't mind that this wasn't discussed with me beforehand. At any rate, I do not have particularly strong feelings about this. The proposal was changed with 5.5 days left in the request, and no one objected over those 5.5 days, but it does seem like it would have been helpful to ping the editors who had already expressed opinions. If a single page was involved, relisting would seem to have been an option, but moving all the pages back and reopening in this case seems like a lot of work for questionable benefit. I'd hope that a compromise position--e.g., opening a new move request to lowercase titles, and having "no consensus" default to moving the pages to lowercase titles--might be sufficient in this case. Dekimasu

If I had recalled at the right time and pointed this out to BD2412 immediately after his close, he probably would have amended as no consensus and thus revert to the original intent of the previous RM, which would have fixed things. But I spaced it, as we all know by now. So, we have these options:

• BD2412 can summarily amend his close based on this. Easy; then we're done.
• We can do a move review of BD2412's close and see if we agree that it should be amended; harder, as move reviews seldom go anywhere and have a hard time getting closed.
• We can complete the RFC I started at WT:USSTATION#RfC: some proper talkin' about station title conventions and implement whatever fix is most supported there; this takes an admin with a willingness to help. It looks like it might be a revert to the original parenthetical (WMATA station) names as Epicgenius suggests above.
• We can complete the RFC and based on what we learn, then open another RM discussion. This is unlikely to have a different outcome from before, since there's a strong consensus to move, but a mix of which directions; nobody likes the present mess (nobody being primary B2C).

So, suggestions? Actions? BD2412, if you take step 1 we're done for now, and then Epicgenius and others who want to roll back USSTATION completely can have a clean go of it. Dicklyon (talk) 17:30, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

There is no consensus to "roll back" the USSTATION guidelines. The matter of whether the articles should have upper or lowercased titles is separate. Deprecating the USSTATION guidelines would require a widely-advertised RfC on that question alone. As such, this hasn't happened. Keep in mind that RfCs are supposed to run for thirty days. RGloucester — ☎ 18:00, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I am not contemplating an RFC as to those guidelines, but as to the treatment of stations in the DC Metro system. Despite the absence of a clear consensus in the move discussion, I am uncomfortable with the fiat of Wikipedia deeming these the proper names of these stations without really having a clear consensus one way or the other. To be clear, I don't think a change to the close of the previous discussion is warranted, as the close properly described the absence of consensus to move. I think what is needed is a new and broader discussion, with all of the relevant evidence being laid out beforehand, and no presumption being given in favor of one title or the other. I also do not think that it is necessary to move these titles to any particular waypoint during such a discussion, so long as participants know that the current titles hold no precedential value. bd2412 T 18:08, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

There is almost no support for those titles as the proper names of the station; that's why a fix is needed. You are in a position to summarily fix it per the originally unanimous support at the first RM and the opinion of the original closer that it should be fixed to lower case if no consensus was found for upper case; that is, amending the outcome as suggested would be consistent with your finding of no consensus. Very few would object if you fixed it at this point (just B2C maybe). Dicklyon (talk) 18:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I think that an RfC is an acceptable idea, but that the likely result would be what we've already seen: a stalemate. It might be better if USSTATION was simply amended to prefer solely capitalised or solely lowercased "station" appendages. Note that the British station guidelines specify solely lowercased appendages, even for major stations like Edinburgh Waverley. RGloucester — ☎ 18:35, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that it is necessarily sound policy to impose consistent capitalization on things that are inconsistent in the real world. If one system uses "Station" as part of the proper name of its stations, and another does not, then that should be an overriding consideration. Are these British station guidelines to which you refer guidelines within Wikipedia, or guidelines propounded by the British government? bd2412 T 20:00, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

They are Wikipedia guidelines. The government has no such regulations. We use universal lowercase of the "railway station" appendage. This may be because British railway stations do not traditionally include "railway station" as part of their official/proper names, i.e. "Edinburgh Waverley" is usually referred to as "Edinburgh Waverley", "Paddington" is referred to as "Paddington", &c. RGloucester — ☎ 20:05, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Which is meaningless for the US. Any guideline that calls for decapitalizing Pennsylvania Station is completely foolish. It's simply is a proper noun in universal usage and the word "Station" must be capitalized of else Wikipedia is completely out of step with actual usage and looks dumber than a box of rocks. That's why a universal imposition one way or the other is I'll advised at best. That's why the USSTATION guideline is written the way it is. With that said, we really have an issue here of interpreting sources, not the phrasing of the guideline. But we also have an issue where in retrospect the guideline was adopted without road enough input from interested editors. At least that's what is seems based on the pushback. oknazevad (talk) 20:22, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

There is no "Pennsylvania Station" in the DC Metro system. bd2412 T 00:59, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

See what I mean, BD? People will talk for the sake of talking, will spread negativity and hypotheticals all day, but will not actually object if you just do the fix that was clearly in order in the last RM and MR and again more supported than any other alternative in the recent RM. Just do it and put us out of our misery. In fact, when I just did it myself, nobody actually objected to the fixed titles, just to the process by which it came about. Am I right? As far as I see reviewing the complaints above, none were about the title being moved to lower case; the main complainant, RGloucester, was among those explicitly supporting those moves. The only complaint was that I did it without consensus. But if you look back at the history, especially in light of what Dekimasu said, you'll see that the real move against consensus was when they went to upper case, and as the closer who made that error he suggested reverting to lowercase if no consensus could be achieved in this second RM discussion. So that's where are we. You can fix it, and everyone will be happy (except those who would prefer to roll back USSTATION altogether, but that's an orthogonal issue). Dicklyon (talk) 00:45, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I can't make the discussion mean something other than what it meant, and I can't go back and "fix" the 2014 closer's close. I can only suggest a path that goes forward. bd2412 T 00:59, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

You could easily follow the original closer's instruction to fix the caps error if the new RM did not result in a consensus to capitalize, which it did not. Dicklyon (talk) 01:52, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Request for a warning about editor-focused discussion /WP:BLOCKDETERRENT for personal attacks on Miscellany for Deletion Project Page (user: Petrarchan47)

(adjusted per admin input)

I recently nominated the essay Wikipedia:Conflict of Interest ducks for deletion based on my concerns that it undermines consensus-building and collaborative editing, instead expressing and encouraging a WP:BATTLEGROUND mindset, discouraging WP:GF interactions, and encouraging editors to engage in interactions that focus on editors instead of sources and content. user:Petrarchan47 has taken great exception to this nomination, and has expressed this objection by off-topic attacks on my editing history on the deletion Talk page and with personal attacks in various discussions on other Talk pages.

In the discussion on the essay Talk page, I am singled out as a “COI duck”. The criticisms of my edits include using the FDA as a source for medical information (it is “non-neutral and non-independent”), removing a redundant sentence about birth defects from the SSRI article, and removing material about an antipsychotic from the Antidepressant article.

The same material is later posted to the MfD discussion page, in which I am referred to (directly) as a “COI duck” and (indirectly) as part of a group of editors who “gather at the same articles to create faux consensus, and flock around noticeboards to silence opponents through bans, etc”. (I believe this is only my second or third time bringing someone to ANI in 2 years of editing).

I responded to these attacks with explanations for my edits, and was soon thereafter hit with another list, also on the MfD discussion page.

I offered a civil statement that this Talk page was not the appropriate place for her demand that I justify a lengthy list of edits to other articles and demand that I defend myself from charges of bad faith editing.

She responds with more accusations of “pro pharma spin doctoring”

I left a standard “no personal attacks” template message on her user page and she responds again on the MfD Talk page accusing me of “bullying” behavior and suggesting that the NPA template I left was retaliaton for her vote.

I really don't want any conflict here and would just appreciate it if an admin would put in a word. I'm happy to discuss edits on the article page in question and to defer to an RfC if no consensus can be gained. But edits which have never been contested by Petra on the Talk pages of the articles in question are being used to attack my good faith and undermine my credibility on unrelated pages, and this is unhelpful. Thanks. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 23:29, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

You may be aware of this recent case where incredibly problematic and dangerous POV editing had a very real-world effect, and is damaging WP's reputation even further. If you read this Newsweek piece, you might note the similarities between the editing I pointed out with regard to pharmaceutical articles, and the editing done by WifiOne - mostly removing criticism of the New Delhi school. If an admin would skim the edits I brought to light, and consider the implications of the particular whitewashing that emerges, they would see that this is a serious matter, and it is much bigger than what a single volunteer should be expected to take on. It is a systemic problem, and given the prolific editing to pharmaceutical articles by F98, this case in particular deserves a closer look. If the method I have used to attempt bring this editing to light is considered more problematic than the edits themselves, well, I guess that's par for the course, but I hope that the content of our articles would take priority over drama. petrarchan47tc 23:47, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Petra, if you are unhappy with my edits, please open a case on me here or at COIN. The purpose of this discussion is your violation of the talk page and WP:NPA by questioning my integrity on article and project Talk pages, which are not for that purpose. This behavior is disruptive and interferes with a constructive discussion of content and sources. Whether or not my edits are "POV", the talk pages are not the appropriate place for questioning my good faith.

Once again, I respectfully request that you either take your concerns to COIN, open an ANI case on me, or keep your thoughts to yourself. The talk and project pages are not the place for all this invective. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 23:52, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

OK, that makes sense to me. However, you are well aware that the first set of diffs was posted to my talk page on 19 March. You raised no objections whatsoever until now, so you might forgive me for thinking it wasn't being considered an "attack". petrarchan47tc 04:35, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

::In addendum, in spite of the very detailed description in this complaint of the exact behavior that I think is problematic, Petra just posted to the MfD project page suggesting that this filing was in retaliation for her vote against deletion.

I specifically said that I wasn't sure whether it is related to what some editors are referring to as a 'pattern of retaliation' regarding your copious warnings. petrarchan47tc 03:45, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

The exact quote in your diff is "I'm not sure if this is related to supporting this essay, I was just taken to court for giving examples of the OP's pro-pharma editing in the survey section". Which has nothing to do with what you are saying here, but could probably have been interpreted more benignly than in my comment above, which I have struck.

Would you please just agree to limit your commentary to sources and content going forward and stop the personal remarks? I really hate these boards and do not like doing this. But on the other hand, I cannot have every controversial discussion that I get involved in disrupted with these silly diffs that you post, showing that I've made edits you disagree with and calling me a shill POV editor and "COI duck", ""spindoctor" and "tendentious editor" over edits that you never disputed at the time they were made. I really don't want to have these battles. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 04:01, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm so sorry that you find the diffs silly - I'm sorry for our readers. I would not waste my time on this if these diffs didn't show extremely tendentious editing in a way that could be dangerous to human health. I consider the 'spindoctoring' that the diffs show to be of utmost importance. And yes, the next time you see a list of your diffs from me will be at the proper noticeboard. I have brought the diffs to only one venue beyond my talk page, so I'm not sure what you meant by "every controversial discussion that I get involved in". My advice would be: stick to the facts, don't spin or exaggerate, and there will be fewer problems with your edits. petrarchan47tc 04:51, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I just noticed you are now claiming that I called you a shill? When did I do that? F98, if you can't stop misrepresenting me here why should anyone believe you are truthful and unbiased in your editing? I have not called you a shill, please strike that. I did confront you about several edits, like here and here, so I would ask that you strike another false claim. Thanks, petrarchan47tc 05:06, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I"ve struck and corrected to describe the accusations more precisely. I'm sorry you're concerned that my edits are a "threat to human health". Because it is reducing threats to human health caused by misinformation in articles that are read by hundreds of people daily that motivated me to become an editor. Generally speaking, I've removed poorly sourced material (and in a remarkable number of cases, statement that contradict their putative source) and added better sourced material. By itself, that may not be a guarantee of NPOV, but it beats the hell out of the opposite.

If you will confirm that we have an agreement that you will restrict your criticism to appropriate venues, including COIN and ANI, I will request that this complaint be closed without action. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 08:52, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I'll copy what I said above as a confirmation: yes, the next time you see a list of your diffs from me will be at the proper noticeboard. petrarchan47tc 17:41, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I have no doubt I will be hearing from you again, but as long as it is in the appropriate forums, there will be no hard feelings on this side. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 18:00, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

You're most welcome. I do need to ask you to be more careful when quoting me. You brought me here because the list of diffs was taken to be an attack, since it wasn't presented in the appropriate forums. My answer is very specific: the next time I present a list of your diffs, it will be at the proper noticeboard. Please don't extrapolate beyond what I have specifically said. I would also note that Geogene has made untrue claims about me in this thread and deserted the scene when asked for proof or to strike them. It seems obvious that you should be against personal attacks regardless of what 'team' is flinging them. It does not appear that policy, rather than personalities, is of primary concern, and that is disturbing. Groupthink is perhaps the greatest threat to this project, IMO, as the rules aren't adhered to evenly. It's hard for me to trust an editor for whom this is the case. petrarchan47tc 23:06, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Petra, I'm generally against personal attacks, but like most people I tend to react more strongly to perceived attacks on myself than on others.

I'm quite cognizant of the fact that you are dilligently building the mother of all COI cases against me. Thats' ok. I'm not concerned by that because

• My conscience is clear
• My conflicts of interest are nil
• My work gets positive reviews from other medical editors, and
• With the exception of occassional mistakes of the sort that everyone makes, everything I do here is completely defensible. I'm not the one adding medical claims using tort attorney websites, blogs, and fringe primary research papers as sources, making statements that contradict the putative source, or skipping over the last 8 years of meta analyses so that I can find one that says a drug doesn't work. (Yes, I can provide examples of all of these, an no, I'm not saying you do, just that those are the sorts of things I fix here).

I'm absolutely certain that people are alive today who would be dead if I had not rewritten the fluoroquinolone articles, which were a REAL example of COI editing by people in litigation against the manufacturers, and seeking to influence the jury pool.

So please, go ahead. You have a right to your day (second day, actually, we've already done this once) in court. What I object to is being required to defend myself against the same charges over and over. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 01:13, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

@Formerly 98: I think you should reflect carefully on what @Petrarchan47: is telling you above by saying My answer is very specific: the next time I present a list of your diffs, it will be at the proper noticeboard. That wording seems unusually precise to me, and s/he has used that exact phrase three times now. Are you sure you two have reached agreement? Geogene (talk) 19:30, Today (UTC−4) And by that I mean that I'm not sure Petrarchan47 understands here that the problem is not posting diffs in the wrong places, but that s/he posts personal attacks in the wrong places. It seems odd to me that s/he keeps referring specifically to what s/he is doing as "posting diffs". But this is not "my" ANI thread. Geogene (talk) 01:50, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Formerly 98 is correct, Petrarchan47, if you are going to make such claims against another editor, you need to present a case and provide evidence. Otherwise, it can be seen as a personal attack. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:58, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

May I add that last spring, the same user was accusing me of COI on article talk pages? Here's an example diff of Petrarchan forumshopping on an admin talkpage to get me blocked. User is always hounding somebody over alleged COI. [91] Geogene (talk) 00:11, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

No, you probably shouldn't add accusations without evidence. "User is always hounding somebody over alleged COI." That is a serious claim, and it needs to be proven with diffs or removed. It is an outright lie. petrarchan47tc 02:21, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

If needed, I will produce those diffs. But I don't want to go dig all that stuff up if nobody's even going to look at them. It's a waste of time. Geogene (talk) 02:42, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

It is needed, as you have already logged this statement, which is untrue and probably falls under "personal attack". If you don't provide links showing that I am always hounding someone over COI, you need to strike that statement. You cannot use these forums to take revenge on editors, and you certainly shouldn't muddy the water with lies. petrarchan47tc 03:17, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support warning. If it looks like the behavior will continue, a short block might be warranted to get the point across, but I'm not sure if that's needed yet. Looks like very clear WP:HOUNDING behavior and violates WP:COI in the manner petrachan has been approaching this. Bringing actual evidence of COI to WP:COIN to air it out with the community is what should be done if there are legitimate concerns, but interjecting this into various talk pages to this degree rises to the level of nothing more than WP:ASPERSIONS. Looking at some of these discussions, it looks like there may be a much longer term interaction where I'd be apt to suggest a one-way interaction ban against petrachan47, but considering the person being hounded is just asking for a warning, that seems fine. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose warning. Please tell me that providing diffs to past discussions to support an argument is not cause for a warning. Editors are warned for casting aspersions when they don't provide diffs, and now they are warned for providing diffs? I find this very confusing. To begin, the MfD was initiated before the ink was dry on the essay - no discussion first as our guidelines suggest. What we see now are arguments between Keep and Delete positions resulting from an ill-conceived MfD. Unfortunately, our overworked admins are now forced to deal with these spurious allegations at a delete request? Please tell me it isn't so. Atsme☯^Consult 00:29, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

The issue here is WP:NPA which states:

"Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks harm the Wikipedia community, and the collegial atmosphere needed to create a good encyclopedia. Derogatory comments about other editors may be removed by any editor. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to sanctions including blocks." Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 00:36, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• Note: There is no official warning at Wikipedia, and this board is also not necessary for that official warning (which does not exist). Admins are needed to enact sanctions such as blocks, but if someone needs warning for violating principles at Wikipedia, just warn them. I'm not sure what additional weight a discussion like this will have. They can't claim they aren't aware that they are being warned, so further votes asking them to be warned are not meaningful here. If a ban or block or other sanction of some sort is needed, then perhaps that discussion needs to be had, but to hold a long discussion where a bunch of people say "Please stop..." is not particularly meaningful. --Jayron32 01:18, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

What do you propose? Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 01:21, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't propose anything. I am not familiar with the situation. But the purpose of a warning is to let someone know that their behavior is in violation of Wikipedia policy. It takes exactly one person to do this, and doesn't require a vote. If violations continue after the warning, then this board is appropriate for sanctions for continued refusal to comply. I don't really have an opinion on this one incident, except to note that a vote on a "warning" is a meaningless, time-wasting endeavor. The person knows they have been warned. Further piling on for the exact same incident is meaningless, unless there is either a) additional problems after the warning or b) we decide that something more severe than a warning is needed, I'm not sure what is to be gained by this. I have no actual opinion on this user in this case, I am merely noting the fruitlessness of lengthy discussions and "votes" that cannot actually lead to any action. --Jayron32 01:26, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Community issued warnings are issued here all the time, and have a lot more weight than a single user giving a warning. It's generally meant as in indication to the user they have gone too far in their behavior, especially when they don't take user warnings seriously are believe the warning is incorrect. It also makes it easier for the community to impose additional sanctions like interaction bans if needed if the behavior continues. ANI warnings are usually the first step in actions taken here when it appears the editor can reverse their behavior problem that could otherwise result in a ban. That's the general spirit here anyways since most prefer to treat a ban as a last resort. Maybe that's not the official stance, but if that's the case, I guess it's become practice for better or worse.Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:28, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Comment - first thing I read in the first diff presented was the OP's statement which I found to be extremely accusatory of Petrarchan47. It really doesn't make any sense to be asking an admin to issue a warning to an editor you accused of WP:TE as follows: "I would say that approx. 85% of your contributions are tendentious. Roughly 15% were neutral or edits I would support." Let me get this straight - the OP requested a warning against the accused for, and I quote, "expressing and encouraging a WP:BATTLEGROUND mindset, discouraging WP:GF interactions, and encouraging editors to engage in interactions that focus on editors instead of sources and content." This is the same OP who initiated a MfD within a few hours of the essay going into mainspace - no prior discussion, and no GF interaction - just a MfD to get rid of it. Also notice, the first diff he provided is a quote wherein he accused the editor of WP:TE? The remaining diffs devolve from there. Forgive me, but this doesn't represent battleground behavior, it looks more like playground behavior. I now have a better understanding of why admins are overworked. Atsme☯^Consult 02:09, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

@Atsme::

• The quote about "I would say that approx. 85% of your contributions are tendentious. Roughly 15% were neutral or edits I would support." was not made by me to Petra, but was made by Petra to me.
• The quote about "expressing and encouraging a WP:BATTLEGROUND mindset, discouraging WP:GF interactions, and encouraging editors to engage in interactions that focus on editors instead of sources and content." was not an accusation addressed at Petra, it was a criticism of the essay, and one that was repeated by more than half of the editors who provided feedback on the essay on the MfD page.

I respectfully request that you strike and correct your statements above. Thanks, Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 02:56, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I apologize, Formerly 98 - mouse over on diffs makes it difficult to determine who said what which just taught me a valuable lesson. Click on it to see the full conversation. I did a strike. Atsme☯^Consult 03:10, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. We don't see eye to eye on a lot of things, and things have gotten heated lately, but I understand that you are trying to do the right thing. I apologize that I have not been very good at communicating that the last few days. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 03:14, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support admins reviewing the situation. The fake essay is more like a how to guide for pro-quackery editing on Wikipedia. It has nothing to do with identifying COI editors. If admins review some of the editors who want to keep the garbage Wikipedia:Conflict of Interest ducks page you will find many interesting edits. Unless admins deal with the problematic editors the disruptions will continue indefinitely. QuackGuru (talk) 03:09, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Not to say anything of the quality of the essay, as that seems to be a discussion for the deletion review already underway, the essay seems to be written in good faith based on a discussion with multiple participants. I'm really not seeing anything at that essay that requires admin intervention.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 09:58, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• As to the charge here for a warning, there does seem to be reason to do so. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 09:58, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Highly debatable. The author is on the losing side of a months-long attempt to whitewash promotion of quackery by a minor crank, G. Edward Griffin. This essay is identified by several of those involved in that dispute, as a blatant invocation of the "pharma shill gambit". Those of ius who do have extensive experience of dealing with COI editing, both directly and in in my case via OTRS, do not recognise this essay as a productive or useful one, especially since it appears to identify use of guidelines such as WP:MEDRS as a signature behaviour of COI. Guy (Help!) 11:24, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

The language I would use would be tendentious in this case and I do personally find that the essay unhelpful. I agree with the position that it is a "Pharma shill gambit" and would suggest that some users have invoked a "pharma shill gambit" in defense of the essay in the deletion discussion. However I don't really see any actual evidence that the creation of this essay is tendentious or intended to be. It does seem to be a good faith effort by individuals with poor knowledge and understanding of policy. Unless there's an argument of a failure to get the point, I don't really see any necessary action to take other than the deletion discussion that has already been opened.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:26, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

As Petra has agreed to limit her editor-focused comments to the proper forums for such discussions, I respectfully request closure of this discussion with no administrative action. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 17:58, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Is it “editor-focused” to link diffs of editing you find problematic and/or non-neutral?

I’m confused here. Is linking diffs from an editor’s contributions during a discussion (at a location other than an admin board) against policy? I think some clarity on this issue from ANI would be helpful. I’ve noticed such diffs often seem to be linked at locations other than admin boards. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 18:41, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Discussion of user behavior should normally be limited to user talk pages and to pages designated for that purpose. See WP:TPYES:

"Comment on content, not on the contributor: Keep the discussions focused upon the topic of the talk page, rather than on the personalities of the editors contributing to the talk page."

Also the summary at the top of the WP:TALK page states: "This page in a nutshell: Talk pages are for improving the encyclopedia, not for expressing personal opinions on a subject or an editor."

WP:AVOIDYOU on the WP:NPA page states

"As a matter of polite and effective discourse, arguments should not be personalized. That is, they should be directed at content and actions rather than people."

WP:NPA further states

"Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done. When in doubt, comment on the article's content without referring to its contributor at all."

The purpose of this is to keep the article discussions from becoming personalized. Discussions of editor behavior are physically segregated from discussions of article content.

Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 19:06, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

It seems that linking diffs to past editing is related to content, although the contributor is also listed. I'm not sure how this applies to "Comment on content, not on the contributor". --BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

See CLOSURE request, no admin action per OP above Atsme☯^Consult 17

24, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

User:KWW abusing revision deletion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:Kww is far exceeding their authority and acting to deliberately compromise the integrity of the encyclopaedia, in pursuit of a personal vendetta. His actions contravene numerous policies, and I believe wider scrutiny of his unilateral attacks on me will be desirable.

His extreme attacks on me have resulted from the following chain of events.

1. a false 3RR report was filed by User:Hafspajen [92], who was upset that I removed unencyclopaedic text from Wilderness Hut. The text was in violation of core policies, being neither neutral nor verifiable. I explained this clearly but the user merely restored the text without attempting to justify it. Hafspajen has a history of reverting to restore extremely poor content to the encyclopaedia for no good reason [93], [94], [95]
2. As a result of the false report, I was blocked. I had reverted three times, as had Hafspajen, but Hafspajen suffered no sanction for trying to force unencyclopaedic material into the article. Kww, falsely claiming that I was subject to a 0RR restriction, decided to block me for three months. The 0RR restriction was in fact no longer in effect.[96]
3. Kww subsequently declared that he had banned me for three years.[97]
4. In contravention of the policy on revision deletion, and apparently out of fear that people who agree with my edits might restore them, he has taken to not just undoing my work but removing it from the edit history in its entirety. See for example [98]. Revision deletion policy states that "Material must be grossly offensive, with little likelihood of significant dissent about its removal. Otherwise it should not be removed", and that "The community's endorsement of the tool included a very strong consensus that its potential to be abused should be strictly barred, prevented by the community, and written into the policy". KWW has clearly abused the tool to remove material that should not have been removed.
5. In contravention of policy, he has restored vandalism to the encyclopaedia. Diffs are not available because he has deleted them.
6. In all of this he has ignored consensus (see discussions at the bottom of the page here), and his actions have contributed to the departure of a much respected administrator.[99]
7. Kww has stated that they do not care if they are compromising the quality of the encyclopaedia. Their sole aim is to drive me way. "If everyone would leave the reversions in place and not wring their hands over whether their edits were improvements or not, we could keep up the solid wall of rejection that is necessary to be rid of this editor." [100]

The ultimate cause of all of this is the constant reverting of my edits for no reason at all. I am compiling a very extensive list of these. Three small examples are those I listed by Hafspajen earlier. One brand new fresh one is this one, made with the flagrantly false claim that "previous version is correct", when the previous version included incorrect designations and absurd hyperbole ("may potentially revolutionize thinking about the physics of supernovae").

What I would like to happen is this:

1. Unblock me. The block was applied for spurious reasons and has no support in policy.
2. Warn and then block people who revert for no reason. Their actions are highly destructive but have been allowed and encouraged for many years. Hafspajen received no admonishment of any kind for their deliberately destructive behaviour.
3. Warn KWW to stop stalking me and to drop their vendetta against me.
4. In light of his abuse of the revision deletion tool, remove his ability to use it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.9.133.182 (talk) 03:25, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• OP admits to editing through a block, therefore I'm closing this. Unblocks can be requested on their talk page. BMK (talk) 04:27, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I've reverted the non-admin closure. While the individual may be editing through the block, that can be addressed separately. The issue presented here shows some merit and deserves some discussion. Mike V • Talk 23:06, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I've looked over Kww's revision deletions and there seems to be a number that do not meet the revision deletion criteria: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 (Each diff represents one instance of revision deletion and may include multiple revisions.) I must say that I am concerned about these actions as the revision deletion tool is permitted to be used only in very strict situations. Mike V • Talk 01:27, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

They all qualify under R5:Valid deletion under deletion policy, executed using RevisionDelete. If these had been completely new articles, they would qualify as G5 speedies, meaning that they certainly qualify for deletion under deletion policy. I do not execute such deletions routinely. In this case, it is a result of a long-term abuser that has not been dissuaded by the typical WP:RBI treatment. After this many years, it's evident that stronger steps are required.—Kww(talk) 01:57, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, the R5 criterion says, with the exception of fixing cut-and-paste moves and history merges, if selective deletion is required, RevisionDelete is usually preferable (see above), and should be used instead of the old method of "delete and partial undelete". It is important that the underlying reason for deletion be made clear in the log summary. Selective deletion is not used for articles created by a blocked/banned user. Also, the G5 deletion policy only covers pages created by banned or blocked users in violation of their ban or block, and which have no substantial edits by others. (emphasis mine) As such, it's not suitable to revision delete the edits. I understand that these sorts of situations can be frustrating, but it should be handled by reverting the edits, semi-protection, blocks, range blocks, etc. when appropriate. Mike V • Talk 02:36, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I note that you include the notes about RD5, but not its definition: "Valid deletion under deletion policy, executed using RevisionDelete". If material would have qualified under deletion policy, it can qualify under RD5 of selection deletion policy. These were edits made by a blocked editor, and there were no substantial edits built on any of them (in fact, there were no cases where any edits by anyone other than the banned editor were removed: I didn't even have to make a judgement call about what constitutes a "substantial" edit). Since articles built that way would qualify for deletion under deletion policy, edits that meet that same criteria can qualify under selective deletion policy using RD5, so long as the reason (in this case, "block evasion") is made clear in the summary. Since the deletion policy they fall under is a speedy deletion policy, there isn't need for individual discussion of each edit: I'm free to do so as an individual administrator. Your reading of RD5 appears to render it meaningless: if your objection to my usage is that I didn't delete the entire article, then RD5 would never apply. As I said, this is not something I do routinely or without thought: your suggestion has been used in this case for years without discernable effect.—Kww(talk) 02:59, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I looked at a small sample of these revdels, and also don't see that these merit hiding. I think we can tolerate more transparency than we seem to be giving ourselves credit for in these cases. Full disclosure: I have previously commented on Kww's extreme views as regards removing any trace of a blocked user's activity. Samsara 13:08, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

@Kww: Am I right in thinking that your argument is along the lines of: G5 allows deletion of entire articles if they are created by a blocked/banned user (with no substantive edits by other users); therefore it is a legitimate use of RevDel to remove edits by blocked/banned users from the edit history of articles which do have substantive edits by other users (since this equates to "deleting" their work)? I'm not at this point venturing an opinion on whether that's correct or not, but I want to make sure I understand where you're coming from before I make any comment. Thanks, Yunshui ^雲_水 13:18, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

This "substantive edits by other users" issue is really strange to me. The purpose of that clause in G5 is to avoid deleting other editors' work. If a blocked or banned editor creates an article and that is followed by other editors making substantial changes to that material, an admin cannot later go in and delete that article based on G5 because that deletion would also delete good-faith work by legitimate editors. That creates a situation that requires community discussion, so the speedy deletion would be invalid.

Similarly, if there was a case where a blocked or banned editor had made an edit and other editors had built upon that work, modifying and reusing the blocked or banned editor's work, RD5 could not be applied: since G5 won't allow us to sweep away legitimate work, G5 can't be invoked as the basis for an RD5 selective delete in that situation.

Here, though, the blocked editor is the top of stack: the last editor to edit the page (except, in many cases, for edits that had already reverted the material) was the banned editor, and reversion deleting his material has no effect whatsoever on edits made by other editors. Take Night of the Doctor's history for example. The IP had been edit warring again (that plus personal abuse is the reason he is blocked) and there is no difference between the "before" and "after":see the total diff.

In short, when evaluating whether G5 can be used as the basis for an RD5 deletion, I look at whether substantive edits by other users have been made to the material being considered for deletion, not whether there were substantive edits made prior to the edit (or to completely unrelated sections of the article) that will be unaffected by the deletion.

I reiterate that the cases where I do this are quite rare: I don't do this for casual block evasion. While there are fifty diffs listed, that is a sign of how determined this editor is to evade blocks: it's all one case, it's all one editor, it's all one editor that has been evading blocks for years and has no intention of honouring them. Reverting and ignoring has been ineffective in this case, and there's no reason to expect that it will suddenly become effective.

If you believe my interpretation is wrong, I would like to understand what you believe a proper application of RD5 to be. When can a selective deletion be applied by pointing at the article deletion policy, if this isn't a valid case?—Kww(talk) 14:26, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. I don't actually think you're wrong per se, at least not from a technical standpoint. RD5 allows the use of revision deletion where the deletion policy would mandate deletion, and the deletion policy's reasons for deletion include content that meets at least one of the criteria for speedy deletion. G5 is a criterion for speedy deletion, and therefore it seems logical that if G5 were applicable, RevDel would be appropriate. I can see how your actions are consistent with this interpretation of the policies.

However, whilst I don't think there's any abuse of RevDel here - I believe your use of it is legitimate from a policy standpoint, or at least easily defeneded - in practice, this is a pretty unusual action to take; I don't think I've ever seen RevDel applied this way before. In similar circumstances, I would be inclined to simply revert or remove the user's edits per WP:BANREVERT, but if there's no other reason for deleting them from the history, RevDel seems, I don't know, overkill? Is there any reason that you've gone with revision deletion over simple reversion? Yunshui ^雲_水 14:39, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Simply length of time this LTA has been continuing and observing how particularly determined this editor is, as well as threats from editors to continuously restore his material. You are quite correct that it is "unusual", which is why I keep bringing up that this is not my typical reaction to socking and block evasion.—Kww(talk) 14:48, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, my personal take on this is "no harm, no foul". The edits wouldn't have been allowed to stand, and revdeleting them doesn't hurt the encylopedia - whilst I'd suggest that this course of action might not be optimal when the rollback button is available, there's no breach of policy or abuse of the tool that I can see. Yunshui ^雲_水 14:57, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• Can you provide diffs for these threats you refer to? Thanks. Samsara 20:02, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

There's recently been a discussion on Wikipedia talk:Long-term abuse/Best known for IP about this, and the weak consensus from a few of us (principally Chillum and I) is that good faith article edits should stand, irrespective of them coming from a banned user who is subsequently blocked. All participants are pretty much agreed that no vandalism has been committed and it is simply block evasion, edit-warring and incivility that are the problems. Frankly, we are "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit" and will generally allow anyone from anywhere, so somebody who really, really wants to evade a block and sock *cough* Russavia *cough* will do so, and attempting to keep tabs on them is just one long game of cat and mouse that will burn out an admin or two while they try and keep up. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:03, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

- (Non-administrator comment) Do not wear out the Admins! HullIntegrity^\ talk / 20:15, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Yep, that would be the best attitude as fas as I can see (as per, also, my own diffs above). Samsara 20:22, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Which basically boils down to not enforcing the block at all. I'll agree that enforcing the block is a tedious job, but I'm not asking you or Chillum to help, simply to not interfere.—Kww(talk) 20:30, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

To clarify my position, while I think it is a poor idea to revert a constructive edit just because a block evader made it, policy does allow for it. That being said, even if policy allows something community can still decide differently. I have no opinion on if the community should discourage this behavior, but this is a good place to see what they think. Really though, we enforce blocks so that we can write an encyclopedia so reversing a constructive edit to the encyclopedia so that a block is better enforced is ass backwards. I have not looked into the revdels enough to give an opinion. Chillum 21:10, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

To the OP, we are not going to unblock you. You have demonstrated very clearly that you will not work well with others for years now. You seem to have an unlimited supply of IPs, if you just acted in a non-disruptive manner(stop edit warring and being nasty to people) then we probably would not even recognize you. Chillum 21:17, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I can understand why people would choose not to deal with the issue, but I would have a hard time seeing how people could reach a policy-based consensus that would prevent me from dealing with it. The policy basis for retaining his edits would be very weak, though, as it effectively would be unblocking him. That's the issue that no one seems to address: precisely how is retaining a blocked editor's good edits distinct from unblocking him?—Kww(talk) 22:08, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

The primary policy basis in my mind is that we are here to make an encyclopedia. If an edit improves the encyclopedia then reverting it is contrary to our goal. Our goal is not to enforce blocks, it is to make an encyclopedia. Blocking is the means, building an encyclopedia is the end. We should not be letting the encyclopedia suffer for some sense of justice. Is it so much to ask that you look at the edit before reverting and ask yourself if the revert will improve the encyclopedia?

The goal of the block was to prevent personal attacks and edit warring, reverting a good edit does nothing to prevent those issues. Blocks are preventative, but not to prevent improvements. We can have both the improvement and block the user, they are not mutually exclusive. The argument that allowing an edit that improves the encyclopedia is equivalent to unblocking the user is very much a false dichotomy.. Chillum 00:54, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

You haven't answered my question: what effect does blocking the editor have if we take your approach? What precisely does it mean that the editor is blocked?—Kww(talk) 02:20, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

As I already said the purpose of the block was to prevent edit warring and personal attacks. Reverting a constructive edit to the encyclopedia prevents neither. I reject the idea that a user is somehow not blocked because we accept a constructive edit. Chillum 05:02, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

If the OP isn't being unblocked (not to mention the rest of the stuff he wanted to happen), and what Kww did wasn't against policy per se, shouldn't the rest of this discussion be on the talk page of the relevant policy, and not here on AN/I? BMK (talk) 04:56, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree. I think it is foolish to throw away good edits out of spite but policy does allow for it. Short of a strong outcry from the community I don't think there is much to pursue here. Chillum 05:05, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Policy says that "Material must be grossly offensive, with little likelihood of significant dissent about its removal. Otherwise it should not be removed." All the edits in question improved the articles. Policy also says "leave non-harmful fields visible". Removal of IP addresses implies that IP addresses could be harmful. Policy also says "RevisionDelete should not be used without prior clear consensus for "ordinary" incivility, attacks, or for claims of editorial misconduct". There was no prior consensus. You can see even here that consensus is that Kww should not be doing what he is doing. So yes, what Kww did was clearly against policy. 186.9.134.128 (talk) 06:28, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Another sock! BMK (talk) 07:25, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Allie X/User:WordSeventeen/Possible gaming of the system?Harassment

• [101]
• [102]
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Allie_X
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/CollXtion_I
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Catch_(Allie_X_song)

WordSeventeen is continuously misrepresenting guidelines and persists that no primary source of information, even without interpretation, is not acceptable. Does not even bothering to check what he's saying; he keeps calling pages with over a thousand characters "trivial mentions", and will not cede to anyone's argument against that. Keeps calling archive.org radio interview archives and album art archives self-published material or unreliable/unverifiable (as evidenced in some of the brief summaries for reason of editing pages.) He doesn't even bother replying to me now. SanctuaryX (talk) 20:45, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I looked at the first of those diffs (it was too treacly for me to want to look at the rest) so this should be taken as a throwaway comment not resulting from a careful examination. It looked in that first diff that the primary source was being used to include semi-promotional somewhat gushy self-description in the article. I don't think WordSeventeen's approach as described by SanctuaryX is ideal since I'd say there's a neutrality problem rather than a sourcing problem per se with those edits. The stuff I saw isn't contentious in the BLP sense so I don't think overboard demands for sourcing provenance are called for. The issue is that secondary sources document not only the factuality of the info presented, but also its notability (notability is what makes it encyclopedic instead of WP:IINFO). Under strict interpretation of the WP:RS criteria, primary sources are ok if they fill in details of topics whose notability is confirmed by secondary sources existing about them, that should also be cited. In practice if a primary source has something non-contentious that readers are likely to find relevant, I'm ok with using them without a secondary source in place, as long as the material's presentation in the article is brief and neutral. If that article were written more neutrally I'd say it is ok to use bits of those interviews as long as the info is uncontentious and there's not significant questions about authenticity or relevance. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 21:41, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

So what you're saying is I just need to make it a bit less promotional sounding? Does that mean I should undo all the edits he did to remove citations etc and then fix the gushiness? The second diff only highlighted that I an archive.org page (for archiving of cover art) was removed for being "a primary source" (even though it wasn't). So which article did you find to be not brief and neutral? The page for Allie X, CollXtion I, or Catch? Or all of them? And so do I just let the AfD proposal play out? I tried to include as many secondary source information as possible, and I tried to keep the primary source things to straight-forward facts. SanctuaryX (talk • contribs) 22:07, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

1) As mentioned I only looked at the first diff, which is about Allie X. 2) All articles should be written neutrally, which means not promotional at all, not "a bit less promotional". 3) I didn't look at the edit history except for the one diff I mentioned, but the current state of the article is in my opinion bad, full of irrelevant info like what brand of energy drinks the person likes. So yes, I'd say that that should be cleaned up. 4) Looking at the diff about the archive.org cover art, I'd say the main problem is that the archive.org link doesn't actually document the statement that sites it (it doesn't say when or where Allie X began her career). If the cover actually says that (say on the liner notes) and the photo showed it, I'd say it is ok under WP:ABOUTSELF since that particular info is not promotional etc. 4a) As a separate matter, if an album is notable (WP:NMUSIC) then we generally want the cover art to be uploaded to the Wikipedia server rather than linked from an external site. 5) If AfD's are in progress, then they will likely be decided completely on the basis of secondary RS, so the best thing to do is add more of those to the articles. Cleaning up the cruft is a mostly-separate issue but of course that should be done too. I hope this helps. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 23:22, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I notice 50.0.205.75 that you mention, "It looked in that first diff that the primary source was being used to include semi-promotional somewhat gushy self-description in the article." Another editor User:Miniapolis at the AFD for CollXtion I at [103] stated "Merge to Allie X. EP fails WP:NALBUMS, and there's a lot of source overlap with Allie X and Catch (Allie X song) (both of which are also at AfD). Looks like a publicity blitz to me. Miniapolis 5:57 pm, Today (UTC−5)" and to quote User:Miniapolis again this time at the AFD for Catch (Allie X song) at [104] comments, "Merge to Allie X. Although the song has charted, I don't see it meeting WP:GNG (which trumps WP:NALBUMS) yet. This seems to be a trend with marginally-notable musicians: creating individual articles about them and all their recordings, in the apparent hope that something will survive AfD. I hope it's nipped in the bud. User:Miniapolis". I find it ironic that the OP of this thread first named the thread AllieX but soon changed it to "Allie X/User:WordSeventeen/Possible gaming of the system?" In my view it is the publicity blitzer or blitzers that are attempting to game the system, and get free advertising right during the window when the debut EP is supposed to be released. For some reason the release date keeps getting pushed back. See here: [105]. Perhaps the publicity blitzers are waiting for the AFD's to close and get this messy ANI locked down. Who knows? Cheers! WordSeventeen (talk) 00:10, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what your problem is but that was beyond presumptuous. Stop whatever your lttle vendetta is against me, please. The only reason I changed the name is because I misread what the guide said to name your complaint as. I reviewed to make sure I followed protocol. And for your information the EP is already released. Now stop playing the victim, and start following your own constantly spewed Assume Good Faith.SanctuaryX (talk) 00:25, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Now the OP SanctuaryX is in violation of WP:BULLY by the use of hidden text in an unacceptable fashion on the article Allie X. Please see this diff here: [106] OP has left hidden messages within the source code that say in short, DO NOT REMOVE, DO NOT DELETE, and DO NOT DELETE. The full hidden messages can be viewed in the diff here: [107]. The OP has even gone so far as to leave a hidden message that says, VICE Do not remove. Have contacted VICE editor to dissuade erroneous claims of unreliability. --> That is really a little scary. The OP has WP:OWN and WP:BULLY issues with the Allie X article to the point of being disruptive at the Allie X article, as well as its current AFD, and also at the other three articles which are cited at the top of this ani report, and their respective current AFD's. I would ask that the OP user SanctuaryX be blocked to prevent further disruption at the three articles and their respective AFDs. Thank you. WordSeventeen (talk) 02:07, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Didn't realize WP:BULLY removing them now. I apologize, that was in very poor taste. Though did I really violate it?"If there is any information that is constantly added, removed, or modified in any other way, and there may be a better alternative, hidden text may be used to let others know of that alternative. In this case, it should mention the alternative and point to a discussion, if one exists." I just didn't want you removing it again since it complied with WP:ABOUTSELF, which is something I noted and you failed to mention as well. Anyway, I have nothing further to say to you. I just hope that whatever administrator sees what's really going on here. Though I really do not appreciate you leaving out portions of that quoted text to make yourself look better. And there's nothing scary about me asking the editor of Vice magazine if they fact check, etc. And I have no OWN issues, anyone who looks around a bit will see I have told you many times I claim no owner ship. I poorly chose the word "my" in reference to an article to describe that I had substantially contributed. There was no intent of claiming ownership. I've told you this at least five times now. Please get over it.SanctuaryX (talk) 03:14, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (Non-administrator comment) I have bundled all three AfDs (not to mention !voting "keep"). And although I agree that SanctuaryX didn't use quite the proper method in ensuring that the articles would be retained (and I think they will), you really should let the whole thing go, WordSeventeen. That being said, we should let the AfD run its course; I don't think there's anything else ANI can do about this issue. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 03:33, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

@Erpert: @WordSeventeen: @Ansh666: I feel as if wordseventeen is in violation of WP:HA and WP:BULLY. He has had the audacity to harass me again on my talk page, detailing the consequences that will be brought upon me if I ever try and remove the AfD for Catch or CollXion I again. It was VERY blatantly stated that they had been consolidated, and by Erpert, NOT ME. This random person, Ansh666, reinstated the AfD on Catch and CollXtion I for no reason. I have no evidence that Ansh666 is a sockpuppet but that makes me curious. This is getting to be ridiculous and very demeaning. I feel like WordSeventeen needs to be blocked from these articles. He is very clearly singling me out for no good reason. Please, someone who can actually do something, stop this nonsense. I am literally begging. Stop this before it gets any more deranged.SanctuaryX (talk) 06:54, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Even when related AfDs are bundled, you generally aren't supposed to alter the AfD template, SanctuaryX—although I do understand what you were trying to do, and I do also see that it wasn't done maliciously. That being said...WordSeventeen, you really do need to leave him/her alone. (BTW, I doubt Ansh666 is a sock of anyone; s/he was just returning the template to its previous state.) Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 08:42, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

in short form here, diff [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Catch_%28Allie_X_song%29&diff=655786072&oldid=655700312

Also, please review this statement here at ani from user SanctuaryX:

He has had the audacity to harass me again on my talk page, detailing the consequences that will be brought upon me if I ever try and remove the AfD for Catch or CollXion I again."

Yup, " if I ever try and remove the AfD for Catch or CollXion I again."

It is just more disruption caused by user sanctuaryX. I posted a warning about ALTERING a AFD template. Here is the warning on her page.

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to ALTER Articles for deletion notices, as you did at Catch Allie X (song), you may be blocked from editing. Welcome to Wikipedia. Please do not alter Articles for deletion notices from articles. as you did with Catch (Allie X song) Otherwise, it may be difficult to create consensus. If you oppose the deletion of an article, please comment at the respective page instead.

At the Catch (Allie X song) article the user SanctuaryX altered the AFD tag, changing the article name, date, and timestamp.

Later, User Ansh666 edited and adjusted the time stamp and numerical date to the original, and left the edit summary of (replacing tag) See the diff here: [1] WordSeventeen (talk) 06:13, 10 April 2015 (UTC) diff [108]

Cheers! WordSeventeen (talk) 09:46, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

@Erpert: @WordSeventeen: Ok I'm saying the point is I never DID touch the AfD. It was still there. I did nothing. And if you notice his diff doesntactually link to anything . Look at the diff. This is my last edit compared to Ansh666. The AfD notice is STILL THERE and it is unchanged when compared to the original AfD nomination by WordSeventeen. [[109]] This next edit is WordSeventeens last edit compared to Ansh666's to the page. Notice that its got the same information on the notice as mine. [[110]] And finally notice on this last diff that his first edit to the page, this edit is the one in which he nomjnated it for deletion and it is compared to Ansh666's. The AfD notice was never changed by anyone except Ansh666. [[111]] His behavior is obviously malicious and full of lies, because while he could have made an honest mistake with not including the diff, if he had actually ever LOOKED AT THE DIFFS he wouldve noticed I didnt change ANYTHING on the AfD.He is now trying to extort me by saying I am personally attacking him on this noticeboard. He is again telling me to stop under threat of being blocked from editig on wikipedia. Well guess what? I'm not letting you extort me into letting you get away with your bad behavior. And he keeps cherry picking what I said. Like saying above in his quote that "If I ever try to remove the AfD for Catch or CollXtion I again," as the whole quote, even though immediately after I said that, I refuted that I ever edited it and explicitly stated the only edits ever dome to the AfD were done by Erpert, NOT by me. He is trying to slander me now. and Ansh666 didnt just change things for no reason, he also reopened each individual AfD and made them separate again. Why is no one stopping this? I haven't done anything wrong and everyone is just letting him try and screw me over.SanctuaryX (talk) 12:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Okay, if I may: SanctuaryX never touched the AfD tags. WordSeventeen put up three different nominations, two of which were closed by Erpert procedurally in order to bundle the AfD. I changed the tag on those two articles such that they pointed not at the individual closed AfDs, but the main one which is still ongoing, per the instructions at WP:BUNDLE. (IMO, the discussions should have stayed unbundled, as songs, albums, and artists have different criteria, but that's besides the point.) Hopefully this clears things up. ansh666 00:04, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Would a mutual I-ban be out of the question? SanctuaryX (talk) 01:02, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

JoeM and Islam, a safe combination?

JoeM (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

We've got a user who, after returning from a ban, is:

• Claiming that ISIL represents true Islam
• Announcing and carrying out plans to giving artificial validity to claims disproven by independent sources, in particular claims that the United State government plans on murdering its citizens, even using a completely false edit summary to try and sneak this conspiracy theory by.

The overwhelming majority of his edits today and yesterday focus on those two ideas. However, he's not a PR guy for Daesh. JoeM has a history of problematic edits to articles on politics and Islam. He's also got problems with WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL, in addition to some WP:CIR issues (as seen here and here).

The only conclusions I can reach are that JoeM is either a troll, here to use the site as a blog for his own personal bigotry, or not in a right frame of mind necessary to edit here. I challenge anyone to find a useful edit by him that meets WP:V.

At a minimum, I'm thinking that a topic ban from anything relating to politics and Islam is in order, if not a community ban for general WP:CIR when it comes to restraining their personal bigotry. Of course, I'll also completely support an indef block followed by a community ban discussion.

Ian.thomson (talk) 03:50, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I was waiting and giving him some WP:ROPE, but yes, his return does not look promising so far. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:58, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Ian, please assume good faith. I am open to discussing with everyone involved ways to improve articles on Islam and Islamic movements. My goal is to widen the discussion of present day issues in the article about Islam, which is weighted too much on pre-modern times. In articles on ISIS, I would like more emphasis on the religious doctrinal underpinnings of the movement. My goal is merely to make the realm of discussion more relevant and to write factual content.

In the meantime, as we work together, please assume good faith on my part; and I will do the same for you. Also, I think it's frankly unfair to bring up past issues when I started as a contributor over a decade ago. I behaved in a way I regretted; and I personally apologized to Jimmy Wales. I was young and still very emotional about the recent events of 9/11. JoeM (talk) 04:01, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Your edits, then and now, are problematic. If you cannot see that, then I think you won't like it very much here. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:05, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I can assume good faith or competence, but not both. The diffs I've provided clearly show that you're here to push your own misunderstandings onto articles instead of neutrally sticking to academic and journalistic sources. I bring up your past behavior not as some sort of double jeopardy, but to show that you are incapable of learning from mistakes made a decade ago.

If emotion prevents you from being neutral in a topic, stay away from it. It's clear that you're overly emotional about the death panel myth and about ISIL. You should stay away from those topics. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:09, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

No, I am not getting emotional about those topics now. As mentioned, my goal is to (1) widen discussion about modern Islam and modern Islamic movements in the Islam article and (2) to widen discussion about the doctrinal underpinnings of ISIS. I can see that even simple matter of fact statements can be thorny issues around here. So I will adjust my plans accordingly. I will instead see what people think about adding some respected scholarship that could widen the discussion in the ways I think are needed, such as the work of Bernard Lewis, Daniel Pipes, Frank Gaffney, etc-- all TRUE experts on Islam and the Arab world. JoeM (talk) 04:22, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

The diffs I've linked to show what your intentions are, even if you retroactively white wash them as WP:Civil POV pushing to avoid trouble. You're certain you weren't getting emotional here or here?

Daniel Pipes spreads conspiracy theories about Obama being a Muslim, and is widely regarded as an propagandist by even the people who agree with him. That you cite him shows clear POV problems on your part. Besides that, there's the issue of WP:DUE weight. If their views were mainstream, they'd be supported by a wide variety of sources that would already be cited in those articles. Gee, wonder why you would want the article to reflect their views more, then.

The article on Islam does cover movements that are active in modern times. It does not cover movements that might just be a flash in the pan, like ISIL; nor does it promote such movements as being the true form of the religion. The article on Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant does discuss their ideology and beliefs, and there's even an article on the Ideology of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Your edits clearly were not simply about that, but an attempt to equate Islam and ISIL, and create artificial balance between the death panel hoax and independent dismissal of said hoax. If we are going to expand it, we do so through citing mainstream journalistic or academic sources, instead of just repeating propaganda. That should have been a lesson you should have learned a decade ago.

This edit by you makes it hard to believe you know how to compromise. This edit by you makes your shift in tone on this page seem insincere. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:43, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I have no knowledge of this guy, but just read up on his ban, and it seems he has exactly the same attitude towards editing Wikipedia that he had when he was banned ten years ago. He views Wikipedia as a tool for promoting views discredited or ignored by reliable sources in the interest of righting great wrongs. End it here. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:06, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm skeptical of Zad68's suggestion that any kind of short and/or voluntary ban would suffice, since again, the user has returned after ten years with exactly the same attitude as before. I support either a full site ban or a broad topic ban from politics and religion, both indefinite. If the latter, I advise that a month (or three? find a suitable timeframe) after the imposition of the topic ban, his post-ban contributions be scrutinized to see if he's behaved himself or found other topics to right great wrongs in, necessitating a siteban. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:12, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic-ban from.... everything? I noticed this editor at Death panel, which is at an intersection of medical care and politics. Just read through his contribs of the past few days, there's only been 50 since he came back. They evidence fundamental problems with characterizing and representing sources properly, and with WP:WEIGHT. Adding (based on last few edits): WP:LEAD, WP:NOR and citing sources properly too. Sure, AGF and ROPE if you'd like but I think you'd just be postponing the inevitable by a few days. Zad68 01:59, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support He hasn't learned a thing. Edits made with the last couple hours: Misrepresentation of source, synthesis in lede, he's "sure", "scholarly source" --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:05, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support - A site ban, this user has no regard for anything, save their POV. Mlpearc (open channel) 03:10, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support site ban. This user is definitely WP:NOTHERE. They do not even understand the basics, and are brainwashed/too emotionally connected with these topics to edit sensibly. --Fauzan^{✆ talk}_{✉ mail} 13:10, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

  I might consider restricting the ban to main space if the user adheres to his comment below and if others agree. --Fauzan^{✆ talk}_{✉ mail} 12:01, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

• Question: at his block log I see only "17:58, 22 July 2005 Angela unblocked JoeM (Jimbo has unbanned JoeM. See http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-July/026676.html)" Where can I see the original block and any discussion explaining the reason for the block? Also, what's up with Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of JoeM? --Guy Macon (talk) 15:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion appears to be at User_talk:JoeM/ban, with the result here. Seems he was put on some early version of blocking. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:25, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose site ban at this time, based on JoeM's response below. Squinge (talk) 15:20, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support per statements made above. AcidSnow (talk) 01:24, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per below. --DawnDusk (talk) 07:11, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Response

I would like to say to everyone I've dealt with over the past few days, I really sincerely do apologize for the response my edits have generated. It's clear to me that my edits have been too bold to build the consensus needed to improve articles. While I'm probably not alone in thinking that many articles on Wikipedia exhibit a clear leftwing bias, I am going to take a break from editing high profile articles on politics for now until I re-familiarize myself with the way things work here. I ask everyone monitoring this discussion to please hold off for now on making any sweeping bans. Please, watch my contributions over the next few days; and I will prove worthy of another chance. Thanks. JoeM (talk) 01:28, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

JoeM I'd be willing to change my !vote if you'd commit to a voluntary topic-ban from politics and religion, broadly construed, for six months. In that time, show in other areas that you understand how to develop articles according Wikipedia's principles. If you can commit to that, I'd support giving it a go. Zad68 13:55, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

JoeM I want to say that I genuinely and truly appreciate your response above. While disagreeing with various pieces of content I also appreciate a fair bit of the sentiment that you expressed, going back into some time, at Talk:Homelessness/Archive 1. I can also add comment as the editor that was instrumental in the addition of the Islamic extremist reference to the Isil article. Please try to understand the views of the Sunni, Shia and Sufi Muslims that this group fights against and please consider the perspective as to why editors consider it inappropriate to describe it as just another Muslim group. Having been a regular editor on ISIL related topics I can also vouch, while not making excuses, that you are far from being the only editor that has edited in that direction. Despite disagreement in regard editing content and direction I personally see no reason not to assume good faith in regard to intention. I hope that experience here does not leave you feeling too badly. I hope also that you can find great ways to invest your energies wherever they may be. All of these things can be learning experiences. I don't regularly see people making positive responses at AN/I so, believe me, you are doing better than most. GregKaye 22:48, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Topic ban

JoeM (talk · contribs) has been emotionally unstable. He's pushed his POV with no verifiable sources and kept up with it. Hence, assuming good faith, I put forth my proposal:

The community forbids the editor JoeM indefinitely from making edits related to the topics and pages of Islam, Islamic states, Islamic militant groups and death panel, broadly construed. Any uninvolved administrator may, acting on their own discretion, block JoeM for a period of upto one year, if he edits in any of these fields after the ban is enacted. The topic ban may be appealed after a period of 6 months here. If the community finds that he's breached his topic ban or he's not fit for constructive editing, he must wait 6 months before appealing again. Sanctions can only be appealed to administrators' noticeboard or the Arbitration Committee shall he not wish to do it here.

Please support this proposal only if you agree to it fully. It has been worded to the best of my abilities. --QEDK ♠ T ♥ C 15:55, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Erm, should you really be diagnosing another editor as "clearly emotionally unstable"? It comes across as a personal attack to me (although I'm sure you didn't intend it as such), and I think you should remove it. Squinge (talk) 15:14, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm not diagnosing him as "emotionally unstable". And I don't see how, how you even call it a personal attack. All I meant that a few edits of his were affected as emotional and he might make the same mistakes, all over again. Calling this is a personal attack is overkill as I clearly meant it in good faith referring to his past activities. --QEDK ♠ T ♥ C 16:59, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

My point is that you are not in a position to judge the reason he posted as he did and whether or not it was due to emotional instability, and you should not be doing so. Squinge (talk) 18:49, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, assuming good faith, that was the best I could come up with. You got any better motives? --QEDK ♠ T ♥ C 11:44, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban at this time based on JoeM's response above, which essentially seems to be a voluntary topic ban for an unspecified period. Squinge (talk) 15:20, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

The only reason I'm doing this is because voluntary ones are a lot harder to maintain that community-enforced ones. --QEDK ♠ T ♥ C 16:59, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

That's true, but ease of enforcement should not be our priority. Our priority should be getting an editor to edit constructively with the best good faith we can muster and with the minimum of sanctions. And if they're willing to do what the community wants anyway, there's no need for force. Squinge (talk) 18:45, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Don't you think that we've given him enough rope? This is merely a fallback to prevent him from drawing all the rope. --QEDK ♠ T ♥ C 11:44, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support due to his response: the topic ban merely holds him to his word. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:14, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban and not site ban. SamuelDay1 (talk) 03:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
• report back after leaving my comment above JoeM left a note of appreciation on my talk page also requesting intervention regarding some of his "minor copyedits on articles". I recommended giving assurances here on lessons that he had learned learned and also also made substantial intervention at Talk:Iraq#T. E. Lawrence in order to give some involved editor mentoring (I'm very involved with Islamic themed topics). I am pleased that my interventions may have left the impression that not editors could be on his side but would have hoped for more of a response here. Quite a lot of issues have been covered. GregKaye 12:40, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
• Comment please check Special:Contributions/JoeM. It is possible (or not) that JoeM has been shaken up enough by coming through this procedure. He is also communicating as shown and is hesitant in regard to editing. His edits show, by his own statement, that he doesn't want to get blocked. Does Wikipedia have a parole or pending system? I would suggest a one day block on topics mentioned but with wording on the block to say that if there was a further situation that strong action would be taken. GregKaye 15:16, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

  A one-day block wouldn't be appropriate if he's not editing problematically now, as blocks are only for preventative purposes and it wouldn't be preventing anything. (And there's no such thing as a "block on topics mentioned" anyway - you're either blocked or you're not.) Squinge (talk) 15:31, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Moved from archive. --QEDK ♠ T ♥ C 14:26, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support per statements made above. AcidSnow (talk)
• Oppose per Joe's response. You cannot hold what happened 12 years ago against him - if anything, I'm stunned he remembers his handle and password. What Joe does need is a firm warning (which he has received and acknowledged the lesson learned here) and, in my opinion, a WP:MENTOR. --DawnDusk (talk) 07:11, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - Overly harsh proposal. JoeM has demonstrated that he has taken heed of the feedback given to him. I think with an appropriate mentor JoeM will be able to contribute to his areas of interest but within the acceptable bounds. Mbcap (talk) 00:32, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support, although I think broader wording may be desirable (see my comment above). It is clear from Joe's response above that he does not understand why a change of behavior is necessary ("too bold to build consensus" - he isn't a brave maverick, he's just editing disruptively). Moreover, I think his absence for the past week cannot be taken as evidence that he will edit neutrally in the future; rather, to me it shows that he either edits disruptively, or doesn't edit at all. Topic-ban him and see if he finds anything to do when he can't push his agenda. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:19, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support, I don't see any JoeM edits that improve articles, and his edits create unnecessary work for those who would improve articles. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 16:05, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Questionable behavior by Niteshift36

I have been creating a number of new articles. The vast majority of them are related to african americans. A certain group of individuals have bee nominating them for deletion to which I would debate to keep them. [112] At this time, they are not the issue. Apparently, one individual took notice [113] and he won't nominate an article for deletion that I wrote but he certainly votes to have a large amount of them deleted. [114] [115], [116], [117], [118], and [119], . In a short amount of time, he has stalked my profile and edited on a decent amount of articles that I have written on. [120] . His behavior has been noticed [121] and excessive sarcasm and rudeness [122], [123] to which he readily admits [124], [125] He admits to rude behavior [126]. He uses WP:BULLY. I admit to not being the most knowledgeable wikipedian, [127] but I do want to make it better! CrazyAces489 (talk) 19:03, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• Sorry CrazyAces, but you're wasting your time. I've been involved with the Martial Arts project for a long time. I was less active for a while, but when I returned, I became involved again. When I noticed your persistent pattern of using non-reliable sources and creating articles with no intention to make them meet the standards, I looked at other ones. Have I been sarcastic? Yes. (and that's without the alleged "admission" that wasn't) It's hard to not be when you falsely accuse people of racism. It's harder when editors attempt to help you produce better products, use reliable sources and actually improve and your response is "I create so others can work." [128]. Fact is, I haven't nominated a single one of your article for deletion. I did try to help you in the beginning and you displayed a flippant "who cares" attitude. I've voted in other AfD's that you aren't related to in the same time period and edited many other articles you aren't involved with. This is a giant waste of my time. I'll respond to legit responses from other editors, but I'm not going to do a back and forth with you here. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:28, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
• Addendum: The title "noticed by others" is improper. Second, let's look at some of that "stalking":

1. Ron Hubbard: Nom by another. CA was the only keep vote. Article deleted.
2. Greg Baines: Nom by another. No consensus.
3. Joe Marciano: nom by another. CA was the only keep vote. Article deleted.
4. Robey Reed: nom by another. CA and an IP voted keep. Article deleted.
5. Natalia Baron: nom by another. CA came to the discussion after me and also voted to delete.
6. Tyson Jennette: Nom by another. AfD in progress.
7. Shotokan Karate Union: Nom by another. CA and a new SPA voting to keep. In progress.

Again, none of those were nominated by me. One article was a no consensus. The others are in progress or deleted, consistent with my vote. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:44, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Even here he just referred to me as CrazyAces . He states that I said people were racist and that was blatantly false. [129] Even admins stated that it wasn't the case. [130] . I pointed a statistic that has been called WP:WORLDVIEW. He admits to his rude behavior. I don't own articles, so if people want to change it. I rarely make a big deal about it. Some people work on DRV, some on AFC, some on AFD's, etc. I like creating articles. His numerous blocks for the same behavior displays a pattern of behavior. CrazyAces489 (talk) 23:54, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• CrazyAces, in your SPI attempt[131], you made an issue about "MDTEMP listed 7 highly referenced articles, 6 of which are of African American Athletes all at once" and that the one "who happens to be white" was the one that survived AfD. I see you intimating a racial motive there. I wasn't the only one. Mdtemp read it that was, as did the uninvolved Invector [132]. The fact that no admins got involved in the ANI thread about that very issue [133] is luck on your part. As for my block record, yeah, there were some early on and a couple a year ago. A single one of those had to do with civility. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:32, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi, CrazyAces489. Userpages contain a "Contributions" link for a reason: people are supposed to be able follow the contributions of other users. That's not a crime. On the contrary, to check up on the editing of a problematic user is a good deed, and helps the encyclopedia; admins do it all the time. Keeping an eye on a user with a pattern of using non-reliable sources and creating non-viable articles, as Niteshift has been doing with your contributions, is a good thing. It's just rude to accuse people of "stalking" for doing that. Unfounded accusations of bullying are even ruder.

You say the new articles you have created that have been nominated for deletion "are not the issue". Yes, I'm afraid they are, because when you take somebody to ANI, your own behavior and competence will come under scrutiny as well. Since early February, you have created 7 biographical articles that have been deleted because they were non-notable and unsourced, and I don't know how many more that are currently up for deletion and mainly trending towards delete. (Perhaps User:Niteshift36 can help us with a ballpark figure.) You also have created a frivolous SPI in an obvious attempt at retaliation against several users who have been reasonably nominating your articles for deletion.

All this has created a lot of work for other users, and your carefree attitude about that ("I create so others can work") suggests you're not prepared to learn nor slow down. I think you're here to help the encyclopedia, but your attitude is actually unhelpful. Please do your article creation through Articles for creation from now on. It exists to help people with just the kinds of problems your creations have. You say above that you're not the most knowledgeable wikipedian but you do want to make it better. Please show it by doing as I suggest here. If you continue to create non-viable articles directly in mainspace, I'm afraid I'll have to consider blocking you for disruptive editing and willful timewasting. To make sure you see this warning, I'll put a few words about it on your page as well. Bishonen | talk 14:18, 10 April 2015 (UTC).

P. S., I just realized what CrazyAces meant by "he just referred to me as CrazyAces" above. Stop bolding the "crazy" part when you refer to the user, Niteshift36. Don't do it again. However frustrated you are, it's seriously inappropriate, and, yes, I'd call it bullying. Bishonen | talk 14:44, 10 April 2015 (UTC).

• You're right, it wasn't appropriate. I've removed it while mulling the irony of CA repeating it. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:47, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Repeating harmful comments can sometimes be a bad idea. Other times though, it's the easiest way to explain what the problem is. This case seems to fall much more in to the later example. Whatever else CrazyAces may or may or not have done, you really shouldn't be mulling of the irony of CA being forced to repeat offensive and inappropriate comments on your part to point out that you did so. Nil Einne (talk) 15:21, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• Since it was removed a while ago, before your comments, it's sort of pointless to try to tell me what I should or shouldn't think. "mulling it over" is thinking. Surely nobody here is supporting thought control, are they? Niteshift36 (talk) 17:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• It's not surprising that other editors are getting frustrated with CA. His strategy has become to attack all editors that disagree with him. He accused a number of editors of racism and filed SPI allegations against them with no supporting evidence. More than once he has stated at discussions that it's not up to him to supply sources on the articles he creates because that's everyone else's job. He seems quite proud of the fact that he's creating lots of articles and doesn't care if they don't have supporting sources. He repeatedly posts the same sources and arguments at AFD discussions and tells everyone else their views are just opinions and don't really matter--even when supported by policy. It's probably time for WP:BOOMERANG. Mdtemp (talk) 17:37, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Alexbrn and Jtydog inserting OR material despite being warned

Alexbrn and Jtydog have introduced Original Research (repeatedly) into Scrambler therapy, despite being warned that the material is OR.

• At 08:08 April 8th, Alexbrn first introduced the OR here.[134] This material is OR because neither of the sources cited discuss the strength of the evidence - they simply say whether the Scrambler system is effective or not. Please note, there has been some discussion about the actual terms used ("good" or "strong") but this is a red-herring - the point remains that the 2 sources do NOT discuss the strengths of the research, and that any comment on the strength of research has been arrived at by the editor, i.e. it is OR.

• At 16:08, April 9th, I made it clear why this is OR material.[135]

• At 16:21, Alexbrn described the sentence as "paraphrasing", however, the error of this way of thinking was explained to them at 16:42 here.[136]

• At 17:41, I removed the OR material leaving the edit summary "Original Research".

• At 17:43, Alexbrn reverted to include the OR text.[137]

• At 17:48, it was again explained this was OR.[138].

• At 18:16, I again removed the OR leaving the edit summary "Deleting original research"[139]

• At 18:19, Jtydog reverted to include the OR material.[140]

These are extremely experienced editors and for them to intentionally and repeatedly introduce Original Research in a medical article against WP:MEDRS guideleines and in such a disruptive way is extremely serious. They should both be issued with at least warning and a more serious action against Alexbrn as this was a repeated action on their part.__DrChrissy (talk) 19:50, 9 April 2015 (UTC) __DrChrissy (talk) 19:50, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Two observations relevant to this posting:

• Jytdog was not notified (I've done it now).
• The OP appears to be canvassing.[141]

Alexbrn (talk) 21:32, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Wow..this is so extremely misrepresentative. Jytdog has asked me not to communicate with them on their Talkpage. I was aware that raising an ANI meant I had to inform the users. I informed you. I was unsure what to do regarding Jytdog so I immediately contacted the teahouse page and got an answer. This is all shown here.[142] It also shows that at 20:14 I asked the answering editor to contact Jtydog about the ANI. At 21:41, Jtydog was informed of the ANI[143]. You are misrepresenting me completely. Please strike your comments.__DrChrissy (talk) 23:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Wow, this sounds like pretty harsh sanctions you're suggesting for what seems like an argument over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The abstract of the first article says "further larger, placebo-controlled trial data are needed to confirm or refute their effectiveness." I think one could argue either way over whether that is equivalent to "no good data is available to determine whether it is effective". Couldn't you guys split the difference and paraphrase the source as "Additional trial data is needed to determine whether this is effective?". Have we gotten that polarized here? Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 20:01, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I suggested that we summarise with "mixed results" here[144]. Apparently this was not OK and Jytdog reverted it.__DrChrissy (talk) 20:10, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

A small pilot study specifically tested the MC5-A Calmare device on 16 patients with refractory CIPN. The device, which is hypothesized to provide ‘‘nonpain” information to the cutaneous nerves to block the effect of pain, showed an improvement in pain scores (59% reduction at 10 days, with no reported adverse effects. However, a placebo-controlled, randomized, small (14 total patients) trial, published only as an abstract, was unable to demonstrate a benefit for scrambler therapy. "Mixed results" is as OR as what you complain about. You have a pilot study (apparently uncontrolled, since it doesn't say it was) looking at only ten days out, versus a randomized, controlled study. There are some good grammatical explanations for the word however in the userbox on my userpage; pls have a look at them. "Mixed results" is just as OR as what you claim in others' edits. Next time, pls, take this somewhere other than ANI. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:18, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

This appears to be a content dispute that revolves around whether the sourcing's discussion of the quality of the evidence supporting the treatment can be fairly summarized as "good/strong" or not. I do not see any evidence on the Talk page of bad behavior by the accused. How is this low-level content dispute an incident that needs Administrator attention? Where have you tried to resolve the dispute using one of the WP:DR pathways, like asking at the relevant WikiProject, using WP:3O, WP:DRN or the like? You appear to have gone right from a little discussion at the article Talk page right to ANI.

For the record: I've !voted at the AFD for the Scrambler article, and have been in a disagreement with Chrissy at an RFC they started at Talk:Foie gras, but have not been involved in this particular content dispute. Zad68 20:03, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I suspect we have a run-of-the-mill difference of opinion here, mixed with a failed AGF-ometer, because what Dr Chrissy proposes instead looks SYNTH/OR-ish from here. The way around this is wording like that proposed by Formerly, or: "There is insufficient evidence for its use in treating neuropathic pain", which should avoid the tempest in a teacup about the word "good". This polarization/battleground is unhelpful-- this is fixable any number of ways. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:06, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi SandyGeorgia - I'm not sure what you mean by SYNTH/OR-ish - please could you elaborate?__DrChrissy (talk) 20:18, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

If you AGF, everyone is just trying to paraphrase. You want to do it one way, they want to do it another way. Your way is no less OR-ish than the text you object to. There is no good evidence; finding a way to say that is the problem, but claiming "mixed results" when the randomized placebo-controlled study found no benefit is misleading. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:22, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

No, they are not paraphrasing. The 2 studies made no comment on the quality of the research. If you are now saying that certain types of study are more powerful than others, then you are also guilty of OR. How do I know you have the qualifications to make such a judgement of scientific research?__DrChrissy (talk) 20:31, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Why do you think the sources bothered to talk about things like what kind of study each was and how many participants they included? In fact at WP:MEDASSESS--right in the WP:MEDRS guideline itself--Wikipedia provides a hierarchy of study quality, see where it says "The best evidence comes primarily from..." following through "Roughly in descending order of quality...". Zad68 20:38, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

So are you saying that editors on here are allowed to judge the quality of scientific research and make statements about this in WP articles?__DrChrissy (talk) 20:49, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Search me what the big issue is. The paraphrase is good (in mine or others' variants of it). DrChrissy alone insists on calling it OR (wrongly in my view, but - as I've said - I'd be happy to open up the discussion at WT:MED) and has I believe breached 3RR trying to zap it. So if there's a behaviour issue to be considered, maybe it might WP:BOOMERANG back to the OP ... ? I like Sandy's wording too. Alexbrn (talk) 20:13, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I may have breached 3RR but that is not the issue here. Please stick to the content of the ANI I have raised against you. Please show where the sources you used discuss the strength of the evidence about the efficacy of the system - what you wrote was your own interpretation of the sources and is therefore OR. This, and the repeated inclusion of the OR are the only issues of this discussion.__DrChrissy (talk) 20:24, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

No, at ANI you don't get to control whose behavior gets investigated, see WP:BOOMERANG. Did you breach 3RR? Zad68 20:27, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

You may have breached 3RR but that is not the issue here? Holy cow, DrChrissy, we all have more relevant things to do than settle playground squabbles over semantics. If you did breach 3RR, and then brought it to ANI, that says ... something ... at least about the respect you have for the time involved in the rest of the people who have to help sort this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:30, 9 April 2015 (UTC).

I have ultimate respect for the people on here. We are all responsible for how we devote our time to the project. If you do not have the time to participate here, then of course you are free to go elsewhere. This is not a problem about semantics. It is about an editor that made up a phrase in their head and decided to put that into a WP article and cite 2 sources to it as if they supported their OR__DrChrissy (talk) 20:37, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

In general, editors posting here (a noticeboard primarily for examining bad behaviour) should expect to have their own behaviour looked-at too. I don't believe my paraphrase was OR and have offered multiple times to widen the consensus at the Project noticeboard if you still disagreed. Meanwhile, it is you who has been advocating - on that same article's talk page - sourcing material to search engine results ... so really, this "OR" complaint is pretty rich. Alexbrn (talk) 20:31, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

@Alexbrn I was hardly "advocating" sourcing material to search engines, I was discussing this on a Talk page! Please comment on the subject of this ANI - why is your input to the article not OR? As the editor who introduced the material into the article, the onus is on you to defend why it should be included.__DrChrissy (talk) 20:46, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes: you're wrong. Frankly I'm sick of facing your barrage of misguided inquisition; dealing with it is a waste of time. I'll let you burn up the patience of others instead. Alexbrn (talk) 20:52, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thank you for your contributions.__DrChrissy (talk) 21:04, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

It is also not uncommon that complainants are being pursued and harassed by people who overly believe in MEDRS as the correct way to do it. The Banner talk 20:33, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Wow, being harrassed by application of a Wikipedia guideline! Umm, aren't we here because DrChrissy decided to go to ANI with a trivial disagreement about what constitutes WP:OR? Looking over the history on the Talk page, one can see that there are some fairly serious Talk page guidelines by DrChrissy that could be contributing to the polarization of this discussion because the debate is being personalized.

• Accusations of bullying that violate WP:TALK: "Jytdog Now that you have removed the completely inappropriate COI template you imposed to try and bully another editor, perhaps you would turn your mind to answering my question about why Sparadeo F, Kaufman C, D'Amato S (2012) is not MEDRS compliant?"
• Suggestions that other editors are trying to "out" him. " Oh, I happen to know Anna Olsson professionally (I wonder if you are fishing to out me)"

Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 20:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but I am completely at a loss to see what this has to do with the repeated inclusion of Original Research__DrChrissy (talk) 20:53, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that this ANI complaint, along with your behavior on the article Talk pages, constitues WP:Battleground behavior, and makes collaborative editing more difficult if not impossible. In fact, these personal attacks were even copied over to a discussion about a completely unrelated article.

• Proposed 24 hour block for DrChrissy for WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, including violation of Talk page guidelines and rushing to ANI with a trivial disagreement about the interpretation of WP:OR Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI statement} 22:01, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Please be aware that I do not wish that this ANI descends into mud-slinging about editors' behaviour. I would like it to remain focussed on the topic - repeated inclusion of OR despite warnings. However, if this line of diversion continues, I will provide evidence that one of the editors in the ANI is currently operating under a warning for their incivility and has used some of the most offensive behaviour I have ever encountered on wikipedia. __DrChrissy (talk) 21:41, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Ermmmm...could the proposer please sign this - or are they wishing to remain anonymous.__DrChrissy (talk) 21:06, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: These edits certainly look very disruptive at a first glance. They were made:

1. After the article was proposed for deletion
2. Before the AfD dicussion (which is still ongoing) was concluded
3. Without any sort of prior consensus on the talk page

Since the AfD discussion has not yet concluded, I do not see the point in making massive, controversial edits to the article at the moment. It looks disruptive enough so that a temporary block for those who nominated the article for deletion and repeatedly removed the bulk of its content may be necessary. -A1candidate 21:05, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

A1candidate, this edit you just made at Scrambler therapy that introduces medical claims in to the article based on non-WP:MEDRS-compliant sourcing, among other problems, was wildly inappropriate and clearly against consensus. Zad68 21:17, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Zad, your posting clearly does not belong here, but on the Talk page of the Article concerned. Please strike your comments.__DrChrissy (talk) 22:34, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

DrChrissy, this talk page comment is ... well ... bizarre. Regardless the outcome of this article, could you please reduce such talk page behavior? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:11, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Which part of the comment are you referring to?__DrChrissy (talk) 21:14, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

@DrChrissy:, while SandyGeorgia can clarify if she meant something else, I thought your commentary such as "the website (which no doubt will be removed from the article soon)" [emphasis added] and "Oh, I happen to know Anna Olsson professionally (I wonder if you are fishing to out me)- I don't think she would really like being described as Trivia." [emphasis added] at the article talk page was unnecessary and unconstructive. I too would advise you to refrain from engaging in such behaviour in future. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:09, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Looking at this diff [145], it seems unusual that the refs previously used to claim benefit are later being utilized by a different editor to claim no benefit at all. Is there a noticeboard for looking at the specific references being utilized to see if the editors are actually accurately reporting what is in those references?--BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:35, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, WT:MED as I have repeatedly said. (Or any intelligent person can read & decide for themselves: really there is no need to burn hard-pressed medical editors time with basic stuff like this). Alexbrn (talk) 21:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

[edit conflict] Alexbrn, please refrain from answering questions not directed at you, if you are a "hard-pressed medical editor" and cannot answer it simply and respectfully. These sideways comments make reading through this information extra unpleasant. petrarchan47tc 22:13, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

And it is exactly because those ever so hard-pressed medical editors do not have the time to deal with basic stuff like this, is why I raised this ANI. I felt that repeated introduction of OR is so "basic" (please read "fundamentally flawed") that it should be brought to a wider audience, rather than encroach on the time of our hard-pressed medical "experts". By the way, how does one get onto this list of "medical editors"?__DrChrissy (talk) 22:10, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

See WP:MED. Alexbrn (talk) 22:17, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Nice to see that you have stayed. Thanks - I have looked but I can't see what I have to do to be called a "medical editor". I thought ALL editors on WP were considered equal and that equal respect should be shown to all editors and their edits. Am I wrong?__DrChrissy (talk) 22:22, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment It does appear to be a WP:BATTLEGROUND looking at the history of the page, But DrChrissy does not appear to be the only one involved in the battle. It seems strange to pick one editor out of the three that were reverting repeatedly over the last 48 hours for a block or ban. It appears that DrChrissy made 3 reverts but so were other editors reverting. AlbinoFerret 21:42, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Lot's of 'experts' weighing in...reminds me of the definition of an expert, which is someone who knows more and more about less and less until finally knowing absolutely everything about nothing! Why does this remind me of Jytdog and Alexbrn?--Pekay2 (talk) 22:10, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - the claim that summarizing secondary sources is WP:OR is just silly. And bringing this is kind ... vindictive. drchrissy was not satisfied with the ANI where I was warned and sought to overturn the close at AN, which was snow-closed - see here) drchrissy has been kind of following me around (he doesn't usually edit medical articles for example) looking for fights to pick. This is one is ridiculous. Trout and close, please. Jytdog (talk) 22:39, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Please would you focus on the content of this ANI. You made a reversion which re-introduced material into an article which had been identified as OR. This is contrary to WP policy. Why did you do this? (not a rhetorical question). __DrChrissy (talk) 23:06, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

really drchrissy. your analysis that summarizing secondary sources is WP:OR, and even bringing an ANI over it, is just silly and sad. Jytdog (talk) 23:57, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the following NPOV approach by DrChrissy: I think a much better way of stating it would be "There is evidence that the Scrambler system benefited patients (insert source), although another study found no beneficial effects (insert source). It is not our position as editors to judge whether the scientific evidence is "good" or "strong" or whatever. But then, I'm one of those editors who believes NPOV and UNDUE are of the utmost importance in an article. Atsme☯^Consult 23:37, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

and in responding, when you are canvassed. Jytdog (talk) 00:14, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

It's rather silly to think a (talk page stalker) was canvassed. Isn't that how you and a few others always seem to end up wherever I'm involved? No canvassing involved. I've been watching ANI trying to understand the various disputes which raised my curiosity as to why Jytdog and a few others appear to always be involved. Coincidence perhaps. Who knows? Atsme☯^Consult 15:30, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I see nothing by the editors complained of other than an entirely appropriate application of MEDRS to a very problematic article entirely unsupported by reliable sources . The allegation of edit warring by the complaining editor would appear to be an instance for application of WP:PETARD Banks Irk (talk) 02:13, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• Indeed, while Alexbrn and Jytdog might be getting frustrated with DrChrissy, it is the latter we see being disruptive on the article talk page and edit-warring in the article itself (he is at 3RR by my count). I point specifically to the suggestions from DrChrissy in this thread. "Show my the evidence that what I am doing is wrong" is a tactic as old as time. He of all people should know that an absence of evidence is not an evidence of absence; the prohibition against all forms of original research is codified at WP:OR which is comprehensive, but not exhaustive. Any experienced editor understands that what DrChrissy is suggesting is original research and even DrChrissy himself accepts as much later on (but argues that it "won't break WP" so he should be allowed to do it). He has tried several times to dismiss assessment of his own behavior here. There is an ongoing content dispute (most of his original compliant) and an ongoing AFD and so I don't think anything will be helped by the application of an Aboriginal artifact but DrChrissy needs to take a step back and breath. St★lwart¹¹¹ 05:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Comment I've been involved in this discussion on Talk:Scrambler therapy for a couple of days, and I do have a problem with editor synthesis of conclusions based on their review of specialized technical material (i.e. various medical studies). A small part of my input in that discussion:

How is it that "experienced health topic editors" are allowed to synthesize summaries with statements like "no good evidence," or selectively highlight certain results because they are from types of studies that are considered higher quality, without explicit explanation? We remain anonymous editors, and verifiability has to take that into account, we have no special expertise when it comes to summarizing.

And again, after more no direct addressing of the question:

Do we recognize "experts" at Wikipedia who can essentially override core policy and guidelines? It seems what is being suggested is that, as a general encyclopedia reader (and editor), in cases where special technical knowledge is required that I don't possess, I should trust self-confirmed experts in that area to synthesize conclusions for me (at least, in cases where no secondary review source is there to do that)? Is that not what "no good evidence" is, a Wikipedia editor's "expert" summary of specialized medical data?

FYI: I'm an originally "uninvolved editor" who randomly came to that page via AfD notice, and had never seen the handle DrCrissy or "know" that person. Personally, I wouldn't have brought this here (Ive hardly if ever been "here" before), as the discussion is ongoing in Talk, however, as of yet, I still haven't gotten a clear answer... I do get an uncomfortable walled garden feeling when multiple editors suggest that I bone up on specialized guidelines that are supplementary to the core policies and guidelines in order to edit certain content... --Tsavage (talk) 05:45, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I believe that a complete understanding of DrChrissy's motivations in bringing this wholly trivial issue to AN/I cannot be had without reading this recent AN/I report, in which Jytdog was warned for incivility, but DrChrissy tried like the dickens to get him sanctioned. This looks a lot like another attempt on DrChrissy's part to "punish" Jytdog. I suggest that the superficial complaint is strictly a content dispute, and should be thrown back to the talk page, but the underlying problem might be addressed by warning DrChrissy that he must co-operate with other editors instead of displaying what is essentially WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. BMK (talk) 06:13, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Indication of OR The OR statement uses two secondary sources. In summary, 4 studies have been examined by the two sources. Three of these (Smith et al. 2010, Sabato et al., 2005, Marineo et al., 2012) recorded a beneficial effect of the Scrambler system. One of these (Campbell et al., 2013) failed to demonstrate a beneficial effect. This 4th study is the weakest of all 4 as the treatment is applied to only 7 individuals (Being a "placebo-controlled, randomized" study is pointless with such a small n!) How can "there is no strong evidence that it is effective in treating neuropathic pain" possibly be a reasonable and balanced summary of these 4 studies.__DrChrissy (talk) 15:05, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Content disputes don't really belong here, but it's not our call to say how weak or strong primary studies are (that's becoming original research itself). We just summarize what the secondary sources (i.e., reviews) say, which is exactly what NPOV calls for. If something is "wrong" in a particular review, we wait for other reviews to either call that out or establish what the actual scientific consensus is. I really suggest bringing this to relevant noticeboards or Wikiprojects as ANI is not the place for this. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:50, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Non-collegiate attitude It has been suggested that I should discuss concerns more with Alexbrn and Jtydog. The problem is that when I have requested an explanation or evidence of a supporting policy or guideline of their deletions or edits, they simply stop replying. These are the diffs to 3 examples of this non-collegiate attitude and behaviour, here[146], here[147] and here[148]. The interaction problem is theirs, not mine.__DrChrissy (talk) 15:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I think your last sentence is misleading, in view of the fact that your first diff shows that you made an unsubstantiated accusation of bullying against one of the editors you are complaining about (particularly here), and in view of what I and another uninvolved editor pointed out here as another example. The general feedback you are being given here is that you are engaging in battleground behaviour, and it should not be so difficult to see why. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:32, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. Watching these interactions develop on the noticeboards, I agree there does appear to be a battleground behavior going on, but I'm seeing more from DrChrissy than anything. There might be a WP:HOUNDING concern as others like BMK have alluded to. Looking at these conversations, it appears DrChrissy really got wound up at the last ANI, and the posts after at least have the appearance of following Jytdog and others to other articles where DrChrissy doesn't appear to have a history editing. My few interactions with DrChrissy seemed to show the are typically a calm and rational editor, so this doesn't seem like typical behavior for them. I would hope a warning would be enough to disengage from this behavior and utilize content noticeboards, etc. rather than going after individual editors. If this kind of behavior continues, and interaction ban might need to be considered in the future. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:50, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Please note that I raised this ANI against 2 editors. Alexbrn inserted the original OR and re-inserted it, despite my warning that it was OR. I was already preparing ANI against Alexbrn because they refuse to discuss issues (see here[149]. Jtydog joined in later in re-inserting the OR so it seemed the logical thing to do to include them too. This type of alliance behaviour is a pattern of behaviour established between the pair and it forces any editor with reasonable objections to appear to be edit-warring or even into 3RR.__DrChrissy (talk) 16:05, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

It seems the disagreement you are having with two editors is a content dispute. Can you actually point to where a consensus has developed to support your assertion that what is being inserted is original research? What attempts have you made to resolve the content dispute, and have you actually attempted dispute resolution? Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:16, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Withdrawing ANI It is amazing what a calm, articulate approach which does not seem hell-bent on destroying anyone who dares to use this ANI can achieve. Thank-you Ncmvocalist. I am new to this whole idea about disputes - I absolutely hate it. Your message sent me looking further into dispute resolution and I found there is a Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard. Clearly, that is where I should take my concerns. I will withdraw this ANI and thank ALL editors for their contributions. Ncmvocalist, you have done your good deed for the day at Wikipedia.__DrChrissy (talk) 16:32, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

It's probably a good move to withdraw your accusations of bad behavior based on your perception of OR edits. But, I don't think others in this thread are done yet discussing other topics, so this thread needs to remain open. Zad68 16:39, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Actually DrChrissy, while it's good to know that you had a read through that link now, it is worth bearing in mind that Zad68 actually already asked you that question about dispute resolution about 21 hours ago in this thread, but you did not appear to be responsive to it. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:44, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The "This type of alliance behaviour" comment seems pretty telling of the problem I'm describing. Both are medical editors that frequent related noticeboards and Wikiprojects. I even saw some of those discussions before you started editing the article as well, so to insinuate that multiple editors with common interests showing up is problematic or an indication of something improper seems to be an issue itself. When editors edit in similar topics, well they often will show up at the same articles. To an outside observer, you do appear to be approaching this in a bristly manner coming in with guns a blazing for some reason, so I really do suggest disengaging a bit and attempting to approach this more civilly.

Alexbrn and Jytdog do appear to be taking the standard approach we use at Wikipedia to summarizing scientific content. If you are unsure about that approach, this is not the board to discuss that. That discussion would belong a noticeboard like WP:NPOVN (we're talking about assessing WP:WEIGHT more than OR) or a Wikiproject like WT:MED as you've been directed to already. In the diff you gave, it doesn't appear you are being ignored, but just not getting an answer you either want or expect. That being said, I'd be terse with you too if I was being subjected to personal attacks [150]. If you want to have actual discussions on article talk pages, remember to follow WP:TPG, comment on content and not contributor, and avoid sniping like that. You can't expect people to want to work with you well otherwise. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:01, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

And in fact I suggested several times even before this ANI posting that DrChrissy take his concerns to WT:MED to broaden the consensus, but to no avail. For some reason DrC seems averse to the idea of going to WT:MED and has just now taken his beef to WP:NORN. As I've said WT:MED would be the best place, as the issue at hand is a essentially how to translate medical content into lay encyclopedic content - so naturally we would consult editors with most experience in doing that.

I can't help but suspect that the wretched influence of the WP:COIducks essay (of which Dr is a strong supporter[151]) is at work here, since it seems to be taken as okay to assume bad faith and view WP:MED-based editors as part of an unwanted "alliance". Alexbrn (talk) 18:09, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

(Add) And elsewhere DrChrissy has described[152] this ANI experience thus: "I have just suffered a major bruising by editors that just wanted to beat the crap out of me, rather than address the problem or indicate there might be other avenues of raising my concern". Which I would suggest indicates an unreceptive, unrepentant & problematic attitude. Alexbrn (talk) 19:56, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

@Alexbrn I have been accused of following and WP:Hounding Jtydog. I don't recall you ever having contributed to the talk page above before your last posting. Has someone given you the whistle to come and join in? Are you WP:Hounding me?__DrChrissy (talk) 21:06, 10 April 2015 (UTC) @Alexbrn I requested here[153] that you strike your extremely misleading (perhaps a stronger word is more appropriate) comment about the way I raised this ANI regarding informing Jtydog. You seem to have forgotten to do this. Please give this your immediate attention - we would not want to mislead any admin thinking about closing this thread.__DrChrissy (talk) 21:42, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

What I wrote was correct. I notice (as do others I'm sure) you're not addressing the points raised, but hurling out challenges. This is a WP:BATTLEGROUND tactic that gets old very quickly. Alexbrn (talk) 21:59, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I guess we will let others make their minds up about that type of misleading edit. Another WP:BATTLEGROUND tactic that gets old very quickly is simply ignoring other editors questions. I asked you above whether you are WP:Hounding me - please address that question.__DrChrissy (talk) 22:11, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Thank you all for the very valuable lesson I've learned reading this discussion because I naively believed that when an editor offered an olive branch after being given guidance or proper direction, we didn't beat them over the head with it. I once likened it to strikes of comments we didn't mean but posted in the heat of the moment, or the like. Wonder where I got such a silly idea. Atsme☯^Consult 20:44, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree Atsme, The edit you replied to is a low blow. AlbinoFerret 22:10, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• this thread has gone stale. please close and trout the OP. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 14:58, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• @Jytdog This thread has become tortuous. I think to help the closer, you should state your exact reasons for why you think I should receive a trout. I have acknowledged I brought this to the wrong place. What else am I charged with?__DrChrissy (talk) 11:29, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

User:Guy Macon posting large identical text blocks in growing number of venues

This user apparently has a single issue that he is now concerning himself with, which takes a discussion from November 2014 (may have been an RfC) as his inspiration for changing the infobox entry of every atheist and similarly convinced person he can find to "religion: none". I questioned that choice on an article I happened to be watching, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, as this person is notable because of her change of faith. His latest action was to post an approximately two-page (printed ones, remember those? ;) ) exposé of his motivations. In the meantime, I had contacted the closer of the debate who seemed to think the closure was less prescriptive than interpreted by Guy Macon. The twist is that Macon has now met opposition to his changes on several articles, and seems to be pasting the same boilerplate into the talk pages of all atheist/agnostic/etc. biographies where this has occurred. It looks to me like a situation that could spin out of control, and I didn't want to have to tell myself that I saw it coming and did nothing, so I'm raising a flag here. As far as my "involvement" is concerned, I'm not really interested in pursuing this debate any more, but for obvious reasons will not be posting advice or suggest sanctions or anything like that. However, like I said, in my view this could be a problem in the making. Samsara 11:58, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I've encountered this at Christopher Hitchens, and was inclined to agree with Guy that atheism is not a religion. The closing statement on the discussion notes: "There is also a consensus that the phrase 'Religion: Atheist' should not appear, being a contradiction in terms". Is your concern with this (which sounds pretty prescriptive to me) or rather with the way in which Guy is going about the task? Cordless Larry (talk) 12:13, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

As the title states, the concern is the posting of text blocks. The fact that this is happening in a growing number of venues suggests a certain likelihood to become disruptive. Samsara 12:16, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the clarification. Guy's post at Talk:Christopher Hitchens was rather overwhelming. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

@Samsara: are you referring to the use of ""Non-religious" is not a religion. Bald is not a hair color. Off is not a TV channel. Barefoot is not a shoe. Silence is not a sound. Never is not a date. Clear is not a color. Not collecting stamps is not a hobby." in the edit summary? Because other than that, the edits themselves don't look like a large block of text, but rather the removal of one or two words from the infobox. I can't see anything particularly problematic about the edits myself at the moment. It's probably worth having a conversation with the user on his/her talk page first as well - many disputes or worries can be resolved that way without needing to come here to ANI.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:23, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Look for the article talk page edits that add 13k characters. Cheers, Samsara 12:30, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

The appropriateness of Guy's article edits in this regard seems pretty clear. The only issue is whether it's appropriate to post the same lengthy explanation on the talk pages of articles where he's met resistance. Based on a look at his history, it seems this text has only been added 11 times. That doesn't seem ideal but doesn't quite seem disruptive either. Still, imagine if e.g. Giraffedata copy/pasted his "comprises of" essay into the talk pages of every article where someone took issue with it :) Maybe the best thing for Guy to do would be to put the text on a page in his userspace or even as an essay in the Wikipedia namespace, and point people to that? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:35, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Have to agree that it would be better for Guy to link to this text if it's basically the same thing, rather than to post it to many different places. 11 places isn't that many, but it is starting to get up there. Nil Einne (talk) 15:03, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

My own view is that Guy should take a step back from editing the Religion boxes. If you take a look at his contributions, he has made dozens (hundreds?) of edits, including a couple of dozen reverts, to eliminate with extreme prejudice "Atheist" from infoboxes, on at least two separate occasions, at the end of last year, and again more recently. I personally think this is borderline WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour. Even if Guy is right, is replacing "Religon = None (atheist)" with "Religion = None" really the most useful thing he could be spending his time on? Even if this is a true reflection of consensus? And I would personally dispute that anyway, see Talk:Johann Hari if you particularly care about the content dispute. But I think the issue here is more to do with conduct than content. The content dispute can hopefully be resolved by discussion and introducing a new field for non-religious spiritual beliefs. The way Guy has gone about his campaign suggests (to me at least) that he is too emotionally involved and should find something else to spend his time on until things have calmed down. The use of "shock and awe" cut and paste of a few thousand characters to multiple Talk pages on a disputed issue does not help.

Having been advised by Guy to consider dispute resolution I had been seriously considering raising the WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour on this page. Having taken a few deep breaths and looked at Guy's contributions history (and he's clearly a valuable member of the community) I decided there were more constructive ways to proceed.

My suggestion to Guy however would be to take a few steps back and consider how his actions might appear to others. Taking some time to concentrate on other Wikipedia activities might be a good idea. --Merlinme (talk) 22:15, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• If it is something backed up by a large discussion, then I don't see how you, or anyone else, has the right to say he should find better things to do with his time. That's pretty offensive, if Guy is doing something that matches a more global consensus. However, I'm inclined to agree that Guy copy-pasting the same talk page argument is a tad unhelpful, although using the same edit summary consistently IS a good idea, in my opinion. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:30, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I dispute, vigorously, whether Guy's position has been backed by a large discussion. I've read the large discussion multiple times. I took part in the large discussion. I dispute Guy's conclusion, as do other editors. The summariser is on record as saying that they didn't mean the summary to be as conclusive as Guy is taking it to be.

But I don't wish to get into a discussion about the content here. I mean, I will if you want me to. (Have you read my response to Guy's cut and paste points, at Talk:Johann Hari?) But that is not why I am here. I am here more because of how Guy is behaving in the dispute.

S Marshall, the summariser who Guy is invoking in defence of his attempt to eliminate with extreme prejudice "Atheism" from the Religion box, even in brackets, has clarified their position here, at the request of Samsara: [154]. Essentially, S Marshall says that they did not think local consensus should be trampled over in quite the way Guy seems to be attempting. (My personal comment would be that in the case of "No Consensus", the "victory" frequently goes to the editor prepared to devote most time to the matter. Guy seems to be attempting to exploit that fact.) After that clarification, on the same Talk page, Guy did a 13,384 character cut and paste which ignored S Marshall's comments:[155]

At this point, I have to question whether Guy is actually reading the Talk pages he's cutting and pasting to. It seems to me more like a bulldozer approach than anything else.

I repeat, he should take a step back and find something else to occupy him with for the time being.--Merlinme (talk) 22:45, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

The whole of the discussion is summed up in the closing statement. The closing statement says that "Atheist" should not be used because it is not a religion. That's undisputed. "Atheism" is not a religion. Period. The closer read the discussion for us. We don't need to revisit it. If you find fault with S Marshall's closing statement, take it to AN. If not, just drop it, Merlinme. To try to rehash the same thing again and again, contrary to the closing statement of a lengthy debate is real battleground behaviour, and reminds me a bit of Collect. Returning to the original poster's concern: I don't think that Guy Macon's post is excessively long. I managed to read through it in a couple of minutes. Kraxler (talk) 01:12, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

The copy/paste edit summaries have been an issue. Pretty much everything I had to say on that specific matter I said here. The immediate response was just removing my comment without making any of his own but he did seem to stop that specific habit afterwards. Normally that would be the end of it but this is a pattern of his. He seems to think this is all somehow very clever and the only explanations I can think of is that he either doesn't care that behavior is an extremely unproductive way of going about things or that he actually intends to agitate. Neither is great. GraniteSand (talk) 02:02, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

In reply to Kraxler's post, I repeat, I am not here because of the content dispute. There are other ways to resolve that. I am here because of the rather combative approach Guy Macon has taken to the content dispute. His approach seems to be more designed to cow into submission than persuade, and in my opinion is highly likely to start an edit war one of these days. I also think he's too emotionally involved in the Religion/ atheist content dispute, which probably leads to the style observed; and that is why I've suggested he take a break. --Merlinme (talk) 09:50, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

There is no content dispute. WP:Consensus was established, was stated as such in the closing statement by S Marshall, and should be respected as such. GraniteSand, there is a maximum number of characters for edit summaries, it's impossible to complain about their size. This thread was opened by Samsara to complain abouut the size of a certain post added to several pages where users apparently were unaware of the discussion which established the current consensus. Guy Macon's intention was to discourage edit-wars by stating clearly why the word "atheist" was removed. In the meanwhile it was removed from all articles where it was used in the "Religion" field of infoboxes, as prescribed by S Marshall's closing statement, and this whole discussion has become rather moot. Kraxler (talk) 11:20, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

There are some atheists who exhibit characteristics of atheism being its own kind of religion. However, an infobox stating "Religion=Atheism" is kind of pretentious. "None" would be better. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:31, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• There's relevant discussion on my talk page. I'm inclined to hope that Guy Macon will consider turning down the volume a little bit on this particular subject.—S Marshall T/C 12:14, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Legal Threats by 124.180.131.32 (talk · contribs)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The page (Apple Watch), was semi-protected after this user was edit warring (under a different IP), and they are now making legal threats on the talk page saying "I WILL be seeking legal action against you for the FULL cost of you interfering with my computer" to KAMiKAZOW (talk · contribs). Thanks! EoRdE6^{(Come Talk to Me!)} 14:56, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand why IPs are able to edit Wikipedia. GregKaye 16:56, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disruptive sock/proxy IP

120.137.174.133 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is continuing the unconstructive editing of recently blocked sockpuppet PortugueseManofPeace (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), like adding nonsense to a sentence about a lawsuit.

The blocked sock [156] modified the sentence "A central allegation of the suit is that Barclays misrepresented the level of aggressive HFT activity in its dark pool to other clients." by adding stuff that cannot be found in any source. Here the IP sock [157] modified the same sentence, also by adding stuff that cannot be found in any source.

I assumed good faith, started discussion on 17:55, 9 April 2015 (UTC) and followed the protocol of talk page explanations and warnings, e.g. here [158] about the lawsuit. The IP, despite some niche topic knowledge about high-frequency trading, is acting as if it could not hear me. When being warned about edit warring, [159] the IP responds by making three reverts in different articles, [160] [161] [162] inlcuding re-inserting "from using GPUs" in the lawsuit sentence (last link), with an edit summary of "senteice is not talking about lawsuit".

Obviously unconstructive and disruptive, and I think sufficient to block the sock IP and semi-protect the articles edited. I wanted to make this report concise, there are more issues pointed out in the section "April 2015" on the IP's talk page. Kristina451 (talk) 17:13, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I have account just forget to log in, this person is very bad . she keep undoing everyone edit and I see admin already warn her. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kristina451&diff=prev&oldid=654233086) I ask her nicely on her talk page why she keep undoing my edit and also give reference on the article talk page before editing, she never discuss and just report me. Mkb764920 (talk) 18:31, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

The April 9/10 timestamps of your edits with 120.137.174.133 (talk · contribs) and Mkb764920 (talk · contribs) show that you did not "just forget to log in". Mkb764920 is an obvious sock, created yesterday. Kristina451 (talk) 19:35, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

admins, I just start using en.wikipedia. using IP for few month and now create account. I have long time account in ja.wikipedia. I see she only spend time on edit war, I contribute more than her already （＾∀＾）and will no need to argue with her, I will only talk to admins. please stop her from undo war. Mkb764920 (talk) 20:23, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I would appreciate if an administrator could handle this. Thanks. Kristina451 (talk) 20:31, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks by CrazyAces489

CrazyAces489 accused a number of editors at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/PRehse of being racist saying they were biased against African American athletes. Besides the original comment, he made additional ones that were removed by Vanjagenije [163]. The SPI accusations are bad enough, but accusing a bunch of editors of being racists is a total violation of WP:NPA. Mdtemp (talk) 15:22, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

That's also a WP:AGF Issue. Did they redact their allegations? Weegeerunner (talk) 15:57, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

• He could have made his SPI complaint without the nasty stench of a racism allegation. It was unnecessary. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:33, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Weegeerunner, you'll notice he not only hasn't retracted his allegations, he keeps spreading them (see below).Mdtemp (talk) 19:19, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I simply make a larger number of articles that consist of individuals who are African American. [164]. I pointed out the statistic that 6 of 7 articles nominated for deletion all at once were African American. Every article was deleted except for James Thompson (a black national champion in Judo) and Karl Geis (who happens to be white). [165].

Racism did exist in the martial arts especially in the 1960's and individuals formed federations to combat it such as Steve Sanders (karate). In AFD,I stated that racism existed in Judo [166]. To which I received a reply of "it didn't seem to stop other African Americans from reaching the Olympics. [167]. I stated that only 1 black person reached the Olympics during that period of the 1960's. [168] . Racial discrimination existed in the United States as we can see via programs like Affirmative action in the United States, John Carlos was kicked out of the Olympics in 1968 for protests against racism, the US Government was actively working against civil rights groups via COINTELPRO, even Olympic Gold Medalists suffered huge discrimination for being black and engaging in interracial relationships Milt Campbell. My point being that ignoring (or downplaying) the fact that many of the individuals werent given a lot of media attention to which can plausibly be attributed to discrimination. Fact remains that Racial inequality in the United States still exists. Now I am deemed a racist because I pointed out a statistic? Should I ignore that statistic?

I believe this is retaliation for putting up a Sockpuppet Investigation on the individuals (which wasn't the first sockpuppet investigation into the trio). They have accused me of being barely literate. [169], [170], [171], [172], [173]. Have told me to "stick my head in the sand" [174] They claimed there was no indication of race in my articles [175] I stated the articles of individuals who are black are tagged with African American Portal. [176] CrazyAces489 (talk) 18:39, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not going to get into the racism part of this except to say that CA489 has highlighted some... interesting... statistics and anomalies and from the outside, his interpretation those statistics doesn't seem way off-base. That doesn't mean those interpretations are correct but I don't think he's wrong to suggest it should be investigated. That also doesn't mean he can simply draw his own conclusions and make personal attacks. The suggestion that editors have worked together to secure particular AFD results in this area is not new. In fact, it was the basis of the last sock-puppetry investigation which (while not drawing specific conclusions) did point out that there was a high degree of correlation between specific accounts in AFDs in this topic area, and we're talking now about some of the same accounts. This was admin Dennis Brown's closing statement there. Rather than do their damnedest to get some separation between the accounts and broaden their horizons to ensure that the same accusations couldn't be made again, it seems little has changed from the situation that concerned Dennis 3 years ago. Even in defending himself, one editor confirmed that, "yes when someone like [...] puts an article up for AfD (most often for good reason) I will often check if there are others (he does it in spurts) and edit both the AfD and the article...". At a minimum, this is a form of WP:TAGTEAM which, while not sock-puppetry, is concerning. I don't think anyone's hands are clean here. Strongly suggest CrazyAces489 leaves the SPI to do its work - there's a fine line between raising legitimate concerns in an SPI and making accusations you simply don't have evidence for. St★lwart¹¹¹ 08:46, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Stalwart111, are you saying the victims are too blame? That it's OK to call editors racist and bigoted if they vote to delete poorly written articles on non-notable African American martial artists? This isn't about sockpuppets, it's about CrazyAces 489 calling a group of editors racist simply because they voted to delete some of his articles.Mdtemp (talk) 19:19, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

That also doesn't mean he can simply draw his own conclusions and make personal attacks. - I think I made myself pretty clear on that point. You need to perhaps have a look at this from the perspective of an outsider - a group of editors who have been accused of meat-puppetry in the past (with well-respected admins drawing the conclusion that there was at least some collusion) collaborate to delete a series of articles. Upon being called out for the "collaboration" part (and before any accusations of racism) one of the editors confirms he does indeed track and tag-team on some articles. So an admittedly collaborative effort deletes a series of articles - what do those articles have in common to warrant that effort? The particular personal attacks used in retaliation certainly don't help. Whether you meant to or not, the result remains the same. CrazyAces489's comments were not appropriate, but you guys aren't helping yourselves either. St★lwart¹¹¹ 00:15, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I was going to just leave this alone but a couple points need to be made. First of all it is my name on the SPI title and I have never previously been part of any investigation - this constant referral to the previously investigated trio is nonsense. Secondly in an attempt to answer the allegation I described how some of the overlap could occur. I actively search out and comment on newly created martial arts articles and those put of for deletion and make sure they are visible via categories, project tags, deletion sorting. This is not tag teaming by any stretch but knowing the behavior of other long term AfD contributers making the search more efficient (if this is so wrong wikipedia should remove the user contribution tag). I certainly disagree with the one example I gave enough to make that pretty clear. Now to the allegations of racial bias - I challenge anyone to find any sort of bias of any of the people listed in that SPI investigation. They/I are long term editors with a very long history in martial arts AfDs. The person making the allegation chooses to write articles about African-American athletes (no issue there) that have questionable notability (where the issue arises) - and that and only that is the overlap. I am at a loss what the false accusations of Sockpuppetry and suggestion of racism are meant to accomplish - both are certainly upsetting.Peter Rehse (talk) 10:29, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• CrazyAces489 has again missed the point. The discussion isn't about racism, it's about him calling a set of editors bigoted and racist without real proof.Mdtemp (talk) 19:19, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

• I'm confused why we're allowing this to get so far off points. Hundreds of words about racism and the martial arts.....but nothing even sounding like Crazy retracting his allegations of racism. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:18, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• He lumped many editors together in his claim of racism--a number of whom didn't even vote at those AfD discussions.Mdtemp (talk) 17:26, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked CrazyAces489 indefinitely for all this. Indefinitely because this was such an egregious violation of the WP:WIAPA standards, "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence." I'm open to an unblock if he's ready to repent or otherwise behave more properly. Nyttend (talk) 01:26, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

@Nyttend: Isn't this too harsh? CrazyAces489 has never actually called anyone a racist. He just pointed out that some articles were nominated for deletion by a group of users, and that those articles were about black people. I agree that this is a kind of bad faith accusation, but it's not really the kind that deserves indefinite block. Vanjagenije (talk) 02:01, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

You got indefinitely blocked in this incident, and he's done worse than you: why does he deserve a lesser sanction? I don't follow your reasoning :-) Speaking seriously, while the charge of racism is a problem, the big problem is the extensive accusations of WP:SOCK violations without any evidence whatsoever. We routinely block people for making a pile of "ordinary" personal attacks, and per WP:WIAPA, this kind of accusation is as bad, or worse, if made without evidence. Do you think I ought to unblock him completely, or reduce the unblock? Nyttend (talk) 02:05, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to bed momentarily, and I'll be offline most of tomorrow; any admin who believes it appropriate should feel free to remove or reduce the block without further discussion. Nyttend (talk) 02:31, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I think this is a difficult case. I do believe the guy is here to try and improve things and there are article he's created which are going to be useful additions (though arguably the work required to bring those up to scratch offset the values somewhat). And I do believe there are elements of systematic bias which end up causing some of the articles to be deleted (That bias will be related to our policies and outside world factors), though much of it is that the subjects are at best borderline.

The racism thing to my mind (and I was one of the editors listed at the SPI) was undoubtedly an attempt to smear those being listed, as is the repeated referral to previous accusations against individual which led no where (the SPI, he's done the same to me in other contexts) (He also created and article on the racism topic synthesizing the same accusation of such racism on wikipedia)

But the real problem is the amount of time and effort to get him to see where the problem lies and adapt his ways.

• The unblock request for this he still doesn't seem to understand that casually mentioning statistics on race in an SPI case for that context is going to be taken as implying something, and could be deeply offensive.
• The Ron Duncan article, where a DRV last year had several editors point of the poor references, the same got pointed out again by at least one new editor in the more recent DRV. Yet when it came to another editor doing the heavy lifting to sort it out, he complained essentially it was all an attempt to gut the article to have it deleted, he readded the references which were removed to the talk page as "needed for later", it took a fair bit of effort to move him to the idea that the references were simply no good. And even in the last 24 hours he seems to still not really get it [177] again thinking others sorting out the articles were the problem.
• A few of his articles have gone the one event way, so we end up with him listing articles for deletion on that basis Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Crispus_Attucks

I'm sure I can dig out much more, but all this is offseting the positive work he puts in. Really I don't think indefinite block is right at this stage, but he really really does need a mentor and some restrictions around certain actions without using that mentor. --86.2.216.5 (talk) 09:00, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• I think the comments by Bishonen in the ANI (Questionable behavior by Niteshift36) got it right and I certainly did not expect an indefinite block. There is a cycle of victimhood that has developed (clear when one reads the request for block review) and now that the block has been imposed a cool down period makes sense. If it is lifted clear restrictions on article creation (must go through AfC) and zero tolerance for the type of accusations he has engaged in would be a good idea.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:06, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• Unblock on hold. Not having noticed the comment by Nyttend about being offline today etc (I only read the other ANI thread above), I put the unblock on hold and asked Nyttend about it on his page. Now that I've been advised of Nyttend's note about it in this thread, I'm planning to unblock without waiting for him, provided CrazyAces responds constructively to the note I've just put on his page. You make a very good point about the "cycle of victimhood", Peter Rehse; I hope CrazyAces will be able to break out of it. Compare also my earlier comments on my own page. Bishonen | talk 13:22, 11 April 2015 (UTC).
• I agree that an indefinite block was too harsh, but a shorter one might provide an appropriate cooling off period. CrazyAces489's argument that he never called anyone racist is, at best, disingenuous when he repeatedly (in at least 3 separate discussions) claimed the only reasons articles were deleted was because they were about African Americans. Even several independent editors said he was calling people biased. It's even more egregious because a number of people he included didn't even vote at those discussions. Clearly he needs to learn appropriate WP behavior. I've fixed several of his articles (one of which didn't contain a single complete sentence) by rewriting, correcting facts, and adding sources and his response was to accuse me of hounding him. I like Bishonen's idea of not allowing him to post any articles directly to mainspace--that seems like it would alleviate much of the problem. Given his combativeness and poor track record at AfD discussions, it might be best if he avoided them (either by mandate or voluntarily) until he has demonstrated a much better understanding of WP policies. Papaursa (talk) 14:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
• I was a bit surprised about the indef (though in fairness, indef means no set length. It can be a day or forever). Papaursa's comments are pretty accurate. When we tried to talk to CA about his constant use of sources that weren't RS's, and adding trivial lines just to stuff more sources in, his response was to tell us that "I create so others can work". When we tried to discuss that with him, his focus was solely on the number of articles he has created and refused to see that Wikipedia is improved more by some quality articles than by 3 times as many crap ones. I did make a suggestion to him on Bishoenen's page that I thought would really help him grow into a productive editor (to go through the process of trying to bring one article to GA status), but the response to it was mostly reasons why he didn't want to. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:48, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• As I noted, I was open to an unblock; I just wanted to ensure that an unblock was consequent on his agreeing to behave properly (or someone deciding that the block was improper), rather than him simply waiting out a definite-time block and coming back without understanding anything. Nyttend (talk) 17:33, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Kristina451 edit war

Sorry my English is not very good.

This person is keep undoing my edits.

First I make good edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:120.137.174.133&diff=prev&oldid=655757780) but she don't like the edit so she delete.

Every edit I make she follow me and undo my edit!

I try ask her nicely why (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kristina451&diff=prev&oldid=655756643) on her talk page but she threaten me about some lawsuit.

Then I make edit to other article that have 2 good refs (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Front_running&diff=prev&oldid=655823479) but she still delete and ask me to use talk page because she don't like me.

So I did use the article talk page ! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Front_running)

Now why she still make up this story and report me? (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=655856044) She never even look at the evidence I give on the article talk page !!

I see other admin (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kristina451&diff=prev&oldid=654233086) already tell her on her talk page not to edit war and insist undo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.137.174.133 (talk) 18:16, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

by the way she say I use IP??? this is static ip register to my company, I just forget to log on, this is my account. crazy!! Mkb764920 (talk) 18:17, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) If you forgot to log in, you ipso facto an IP-editor. No shame in that, BTW, many IP-editors make useful contributions. Kleuske (talk) 10:35, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok thank you!! Mkb764920 (talk) 21:59, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm just curious, do you have any connection to User:David Adam Kess or his Japanese account? Because your use of English is quite similar as is your interest in Dark liquidity and Front running and both of you accused Kristina451 of stalking. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 14:35, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I think it is impersonation by the same person with a history of socking and proxy abuse. The blocked sockpuppet PortugueseManofPeace (talk · contribs) previously tried to implicate David Adam Kess when he almost certainly was not involved. "David, Melissa and I agreed to stop WP:MEAT." [178] Kristina451 (talk) 15:04, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

She accuse me of everything now, no fact just pick fight. (;´д｀) ...like her edits. Mkb764920 (talk) 21:59, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

No, that person look like what we call a gaijin. （＾-＾） I never even accuse her, she report me on admin noticeboard first when I ask her nicely on article talk page and user talk page . did she edit war with mr gaijin before? i can expect because her user page got a lot of warning. [179] Mkb764920 (talk) 21:59, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

AIV backlog

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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There is a backlog presently at WP:AIV which is approaching the 2 hour mark. Would it be possible for an administrator to please review? Regards, Yamaguchi先生 19:43, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

AIV has been cleared. Thanks, Nakon 02:10, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Midnight Rider(film) and Randall Miller Large Scale deletions

User:NorthBySouthBaranof has deleted massive sourced sections of both Midnight Rider (film) and Randall Miller that relate to the felony criminal conviction of Randall Miller. User sighted incorrectly WP:SUMMARY which would not apply to simply deleting material. Seems like a clear effort to remove only information related to crimes that are highly notable and sourced. Concensus on talk page is that there should be a spinoff from film page to one focused on tragedy and crimminal convictions. As this is a substantial effort the active editors familiar with complicated issues surrounding page had agreed on talk page to wait until completion of criminal trial, OSHA hearing and report by the FRA which could result in federal criminal issues. These edits have been done such that edit conflicts do not allow for a revert.DFinmitre (talk) 21:36, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I see no reason to do anything. This is a garden variety dispute, and there has not been enough time given to normal dispute resolution processes. No one (has yet) done anything inappropriate, except maybe the OP, who ran here seeking some sanction against someone merely on account of a single disagreement. Make your case on article talk pages, listen to the statements others make, and allow the consensus building process to work. Otherwise, I can't see there is any reason to do anything right now. It is really bad form to run to get someone sanctioned as soon as a disagreement begins. --Jayron32 21:47, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

When you bring an issue to ANI, you are required to notify the other editor, which you did not. I have notified User:NorthBySouthBaranof for you. However, as Jayron32 notes, there is nothing material to discuss here. This is a content dispute. Discussion on the article talk pages is still underway. You have provided no indication of conduct issues by the other editor. Read the dispute resolution policy. If talk page discussion is not successful, follow one of the various content dispute resolution procedures described in that policy rather than coming here about a content dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:56, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

My appologies for not notifying editor, thank you for doing that. Thank you to the admin that resolved this. The clear issue, and why I brought it here was that due to the inability to revert due to edit conflicts, there was no way for regular users to fix this without the assistance of an admin.

This can now be closed as resolved. Thank you. 76.97.45.210 (talk) 00:38, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

There is no "vandalism" involved here. The article in question was far too long, far too detailed and violated NPOV in several areas. The reporting user is effectively a single-purpose account with an axe to grind and a clear advocacy interest in this issue. For example, they have repeatedly made unsupported and unsubstantiated claims about people related to this event, have called such people "cold-blooded murderers", "sick sick people", etc. This is not the behavior one expects of a neutral Wikipedia editor interested in creating articles which accurately and dispassionately describe events. It is clear that they have some sort of vested interest or deep-rooted personal feelings about the issue. While those may be understandable in the wake of a tragic workplace accident that could and should have been avoided, Wikipedia is not the place to further such a campaign, nor is it a place to express displeasure or hatred. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:12, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• I noticed the issue at Midnight Rider (film) and Randall Miller from a report at WP:BLPN. As NorthBySouthBaranof has hinted, there are SPAs trying to use Wikipedia to punish a living person (albeit, one imprisoned for involuntary manslaughter) and further eyes on the articles would be useful. The issue is that a person working on a film was killed and the director has been held responsible. The SPAs want to trumpet the details of the director's problems, when the correct approach is to write an article on the incident, if WP:N is satisfied. If a separate article on the incident is not warranted, the articles on the film and the directory should not be turned into fake articles on the incident. Johnuniq (talk) 02:43, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

DFinmitre is now accusing good-faith editors of vandalism and requesting that others not edit the article without his permission. I think someone might have to explain WP:OWN and WP:NOTVAND to him. I doubt he's going to listen to me or NorthBySouthBaranof, as he considers us vandals. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:46, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm not an Admin, but I just left DFinmitre a personally written message on their Talk page about that Talk:Midnight Rider (film) message. So consider the editor warned. Hopefully, this will cause some reflection on DFinmitre's part. --IJBall (talk) 17:41, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Trolling and edit-warring IP

86.24.128.230 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), probably a logged out editor, has been trolling the ref-deks over te past week, and is curently engaged in edit-warring. Sample diffs: [180], [181]. Can some admin apply the needed block ? Abecedare (talk) 22:08, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

No, it's a case of long-term abuse. He's been at it for months, and he hops IPs. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:10, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked 31 hours for the 3RR violation. If another admin concludes a longer block is necessary based on the long-term abuse, I have no objection to it being increased. Monty₈₄₅ 22:18, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• Note: Parallel discussion at AN3. Am fine with either thread being attended to. Abecedare (talk) 22:16, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• Update: The user has been blocked for 31h in response to the AN3 thread. Pinging @Ian.thomson and Jayron32: in case they want to suggest any further action to resolve the longer-term issue. Abecedare (talk) 22:20, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Found the previous threads: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive870#Mandruss (a boomerang block when he tried to report Mandruss for reverting his stupidity) and Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive873#Refdesk_troll_resuming_activity_after_returning_from_block. There were other IPs after that.

The IP usually registers to the UK, but they seem to use proxies or spoofing as well (quack). They usually ask some lurid or fecal question that they clearly did not bother checking our articles on, or even think about. When reverting other editors, they put their response in the piped link for the reverting editor's talk page (like here or here), and regularly bring up "AGF" despite their obvious trolling.

The only way we're going to deal with this is if admins are given carte blanche to block and page protect any time that IP becomes active. Don't even wait for him to edit war, just revert, revdel, and block for a long time. If he hops, page protection. Everything short of that has regularly and completely failed, and he clearly gets off from it all. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:24, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Since the troll used the account User:Csssats, can we just treat any and all activity by the user as block evasion? Ian.thomson (talk) 22:27, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Bad faith editing and falsehood summary description by 213.164.7.130

• User: 213.164.7.130 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Article: Synthesizer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Revision: 655672937 on 12:58, 9 April 2015‎ (UTC)
• Summary of editing: "English, slight clean up"

This IP user continuously pretend to fix the bad English on above article since several months ago, and he always summarize his editing as "English ..." (i.e. "fixed the bad English". see summary fields on his contribution page). However, his above editing is clearly not in the scope of grammatical correction nor rewriting of expression, but in the delusional rewriting without reliable sources. I have already pointed out the issue on his talk page [182]. However, he don't admit his mistake on the summary field, and even not admit the falsehood on his rewriting [183]. As a conclusion, his above editing seems an intentional vandalism. I need a solution to handle his bad faith editing. --Clusternote (talk) 22:13, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

P.S. This IP user started the reverting war on above article [184] before reaching a consensus on his talk page, thus I've reverted it as vandalism [185]. --Clusternote (talk) 22:37, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• Eh, reverting that isn't fixing vandalism. At best you can call it disruptive editing, or editing against consensus. And I'm guessing from the mdash in the text you restored that they were undoing your edits? Drmies (talk) 00:47, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
• Well, this is not delusional rewriting but correcting seriously deficient English--is this one of the edits you mean? (It corrects a verb error--I noted a few verb errors in your complaint as well.) This edit is an improvement (it corrects your earlier edit), as is this, and this. I don't think someone needs talk page consensus for grammatical corrections. Drmies (talk) 00:57, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed your valuable advices before editing the article... I will try to re-examine my editing by following your advices, from now! --Clusternote (talk) 02:35, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Clusternote, you know a lot of useful stuff; this IP editor knows a few different things. It's from the collaboration that we get decent articles that make this encyclopedia so worthwhile. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 02:46, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

@Drmies: Sorry for my late response. After then, I tried to examine and response for the points indicated by you. And, I've recognized that at least I should thank to the users who try to fix my bad English, because sometimes I can't enough recognize which point is grammatically incorrect (it is cause of this issue). Thus, I want to reduce the grammatical issue on my posting, and I'll try to improve the cooperative manner. Many thanks. --Clusternote (talk) 22:32, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Block evasion by User:Panewithholder?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The newly created editor User:Dickordat appears to be Panewithholder evading his block. It's also worth checking these accounts for their connection to Panewithholder or Concordat:

• User:Not a vandal
• User:I VANDALIZED UNCYCLOPEDIA WITH GOATSE LINKS!!!
• User:I am a vandal ‎
• User:Vandalman ‎
• User:Vandaliser
• User:Vandal

Since Dickordat posted the same poem and image to the user pages of all these users. BMK (talk) 22:36, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Nevermind, this seems to have been taken care of by various admins. Thanks. BMK (talk) 22:40, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Uncooperative IP adding unsourced future air dates to anime articles and lists

Originally posted at WP:AIV

85.211.129.27 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) – This one is rather complex case. This user flat out ignores previous warnings about requiring sources for future dates of upcoming television broadcasts. This has been going on for months now, often changes IPs ever week or two, without the user ever discussion their edits with others. Because this a range block may be required. Has previous edited using the following IPs (not complete).

• 85.211.195.177 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 85.211.129.111 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 85.211.131.72 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 85.211.143.204 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 85.211.203.136 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 85.211.143.248 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 85.211.131.165 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 85.211.131.60 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 85.211.193.102 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 85.211.131.39 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

If this was a logged in account, the user would have been blocked long ago under WP:COMPETENCE. I would like to thank KirtZJ for adding some of the IPs in the original AIV report. Jayron32 suggested that this be moved to ANI because of the need for a range block. —Farix (t | c) 22:39, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• We're an encyclopedia, not a TV guide--but hey, I guess this is what we do these days: listing future TV broadcasts. Does anything need (semi-)protecting, or is a rangeblock enough? Drmies (talk) 02:14, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
  • How feasible is a range block? Because otherwise, we are taking about semi-protecting some 20 articles and they do get plenty of productive edits from IPs. —Farix (t | c) 04:22, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

The latest IP still continues to add unsourced future airdates despite warnings and this very topic.[186][187][188][189][190] This demonstrates the editors unwillingness to discuss their troublesome activity with other editors. —Farix (t | c) 14:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Even after inserting a editorial note that future air dates must have a reliable source, the editor removes the note and add a future air[191] effectively sticking a big fat middle finger at the verifiability policy. —Farix (t | c) 21:38, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Flyer22

Flyer22 has been following me around, talking mad trash, and accusing me of general malfeasance. He wont stop. He has disrupted the article I am editing and is now encouraging other editors to get in my face. I tried to talk to him but he wouldnt listen worth a damn. Bottom line, will someone tell this guy to just LAY OFF?? Sorry but dont give me a shit sandwich and then tell me it tastes like French Vanilla ice cream.

Ok here is the first link where he accuses: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Rape_on_Campus&diff=prev&oldid=655748010

I tried to talk to him and he just basically told me to pound sand and that he wouldnt listen: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Rape_on_Campus&diff=next&oldid=655748010

Then one of the bosses erased his garbage: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:A_Rape_on_Campus&diff=next&oldid=655749664

But he wouldnt stop with the trash talking. I asked one of the bosses about making A complaint but decided to be COOL about it and not do anything: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cavalierman#Complaint

But again he wouldnt stop with the garbage. THEN listen to this! He accuses a DIFFERENT editor (capitalismojo) of using socks: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flyer22&diff=prev&oldid=655864877

The other editor who is very respected on wikipedia is rightfully scandalized and defends himself. Then when I go to the other editors page to tell him what a nutjob Flyer22 is he gets mad at me! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Capitalismojo#Flyerr22

All I want is for Flyer22 to keep my name out of his mouth and if he has A problem with me then come to me about it and discuss it like adults. And stop posting shit about me at the articles I am doing!

Thank you Cavalierman (talk) 03:04, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh brother! Not this again!! --IJBall (talk) 03:13, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Is the above an example of "discuss it like adults"? Acroterion (talk) 03:16, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Anyone wanting to know more on this matter can see here, here, here and here. Whether or not Cavalierman is Cali11298 (talk · contribs), I noted that he is not entirely new to editing Wikipedia; he isn't. I did not call him a WP:Sockpuppet, even though I'm certain that he is one (of whatever registered editor, whether he is using a WP:Proxy or similar "protection" to keep from being connected to the master account). In my opinion, that he is so concerned with what I'm stating on my user talk page, and pursued me on this matter (despite being advised not to on his user talk page), points to truth in my words regarding him. Flyer22 (talk) 03:21, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

This person is obviously very ill. All I am asking is to please stop him from harassing me. That's it. Just leave me alone and stop accusing me of things I didnt do. Cavalierman (talk) 03:28, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

The tone of this complaint is remarkably similar in its adolescent quality to the previous one made by Jhamilton303, in an AN/I report that's probably still above this somewhere. I'd venture that they're connected, and I'm heading over to the SPI to say so. BMK (talk) 04:29, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

@Flyer22:, why does your userpage contain instructions how to circumvent autoconfirmation? Samsara 06:40, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

@Samsara: Are you seriously suggesting "if you see a "new editor" making superficial edits to an article (such as WP:Dummy edits) in a row (meaning at least ten edits), you have likely spotted a WP:Sockpuppet or a different type of returning editor." equates to instructions how to circumvent autoconfirmation? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 06:55, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any incident here to be resolved. Flyer has ( civilly) identified a pattern of behavior that seems very much like a known sock master. I have looked at the edits and previous sock investigation and am inclined to agree. That doesn't constitute an incident to be resolved by admins. Suggest speedy close, also check user to examine. Capitalismojo (talk) 18:16, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I think it is unfortunate that she refers both to circumventing autoconfirmation and the creation of sleeper accounts, and apparently directs suspected or confirmed abusive users to her page for further information. What good reason is there for putting this material there and directing these people to it? Ignoring this simple query does not bode well. Samsara 09:30, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

We alread told you, Samsara: the info there is how to detect bad-faith autoconfirming puppets for the sake of thwarting them, not abet such people. OK? See what we're saying? Herostratus (talk) 14:56, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I think it is unfortunate that you began your "simple qery" by accusing Flyer22 of providing "instructions how to circumvent autoconfirmation". You might do better to drop the ominous and even threatening tone of "does not bode well", apologise, read all of the explanation Flyer22 already provides on her user page and the comments from other editors above, and once you understand and can sympathise with Flyer22's approach, ask for a constructive discussion. NebY (talk) 14:52, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

@Capitalismojo:, whoa there pardner, let's not be so quick to close. Rather than (or in addition to, if y'all want to spend the resources) a sock puppet investigation, how about a general boomerang block on User:Cavalierman, uppet or no? Among the many bad things he's said just here is "This person is obviously very ill", which goes wayyyy beyond being uncivil to actually being hurtful (or trying to be). Also, I think we can assume that if he's attracted Flyer22's attention he's up to no good and probably on some pretty sensitive subjects. We don't need people like this. Get rid of him, and now's your chance. Herostratus (talk) 14:56, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

@Herostratus: I disagree strongly. Cavalierman (talk) 16:33, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Hrm. Well, that's a refreshingly calm response and a step forward. Keep it up! Next: are you gonna apologize to Flyer22, there? Herostratus (talk) 19:51, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

{{checkuser needed}} - This thread relates to this very recent one. That was handled expeditiously, and resulted in the uncovering of three socks; it would be nice if this one were dealt with quickly as well. The SPI can be found here. BMK (talk) 21:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Very  Unlikely. Reaper Eternal (talk) 23:59, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. BMK (talk) 01:59, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: Eat shit. Cavalierman (talk) 17:49, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Incivility by Prashant and suspected sock

I recently opened a sockpuppet investigation on Prashant! and Daan0001. Soon after opening it, Prashant! went into a barrage of personal attacks directed towards me on my talk page, on the investigation page, and on his own talk page by misusing the "help me" template. A sample statement would be: "These kind of users should be ashamed of themselves and their face should be blackened to show how much they are..". Soon after, the suspected sock Daan0001 vandalised my user page by posting this threat: "Told you to keep away from me ! I won't repeat lol". Prashant and Daan also had this gem of a conversation on the latter's talk page. Even if the two accounts aren't related, which we'll only know when the investigation reports comes, both these users need a lesson or two in civility. --Krimuk|90 (talk) 03:20, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

This user is after me since day one and first prove that Dan is my sock and then say this. You have dragged me in this situation without any fault. That's why I busted on you as you didn't even replied my message on your talk page. I just want to say that you manipulate things very much. Who knows Dan might be your sock.—Prashant 03:40, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Based on this exchange, I'd endorse the SPI investigation. There's something odd going on here. Nakon 03:42, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I was saying. Plus, Krimuk90 and I does not get along, so obviously he would try every trick to avenge me. He is very frustrated person. When I posted a message on his talk page he didnt replied and reverted with no reply. But, he is good at manipulating things. So, I guess his story is quite interesting. But, is abolutely fiction.—Prashant 04:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Prashant, please we know we are totally different people. Please let the admin do their work. We don't need to communicate or interact with haters. This sock thing between you and me really cracked me up last night ! I'm still laughing for this fact. Lol Daan0001 (talk) 05:52, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

If you were so nonchalant about it, you wouldn't have vandalised my user page. --Krimuk|90 (talk) 06:00, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Really? I have my viva exams today and I'm here to prove something that is as claer as water. So, who won't be unhappy about this. Tell me?—Prashant 06:08, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Prashant, please concentrate on your exams as it's much important like I was last months. As it's priority. We don't need to prove anything or make any statements or waste our time on this silly accusation. ( This really crack me up though how people hate others lol ) For a moment I thought it was April 1st haha. Take it easy and let ADMIN sort this. Daan0001 (talk) 06:51, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Issue with Kelami

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Some IP editors, in particular 86.1.121.29 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), are repeatedly adding information about a World of Warcraft character to the article on an Azerbaijani town of the same name (Kelami). I have tried to discuss the issue on talk pages (Talk:Kelami, User talk:86.1.121.29, and User talk:86.22.124.190), with no success. Is there anything that can be done to deal with this issue? —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:31, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I've semi-protected the article in question for three weeks. In the future, please report these articles to WP:RFPP. Thanks, Nakon 03:32, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

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Subtle vandalism, user warned multiple times

The problematic IP editor 76.167.232.59 has been performing subtle vandalism in China-related articles, and has been disruptive site-wide despite being warned multiple times by different editors. They make inappropriate changes to Chinese romanisations (for example, changing "Xueqi" to "Hsuechi"), edits which ordinary non-Chinese speaking editors may not be able to pick up and notice. China-related articles have a standardised format for romanisation (see WP:MOSZH), and this editor is intentionally attempting to increase the workload of editors by making subtle incorrect changes that deviate from the Manual of Style, or otherwise are simply wrong. --benlisquare_T•C•E 05:03, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

How certain are you (or can you prove to us) this is a deliberate attempt to ruin Wikipedia, rather than a good-faith, but badly executed, attempt to improve Wikipedia in the mind of that particular person. Are they, perhaps, working from an alternate Romanization scheme, which perhaps Wikipedia doesn't use, but which that person doesn't know, and is thus doing what they think is right? [[WP:VANDALISM|vandalism is 100% about intent), and unless you can show that the user intends to harm Wikipedia (rather than being merely mistaken about the proper way to do things, or disagreeing with established conventions earnestly). While both WP:CONSENSUS and WP:CIR violations are blockable offenses, they are still not vandalism, providing something like a CIR block requires proving a long-term pattern of cluelessness and many attempts to educate the person in question. --Jayron32 05:10, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

They've been blocked before, check their history. A genuinely good-faith editor would seek clarification after being warned as many times as they have been, rather than ignore everything and continue on as if nothing happened. In addition, this user removes simplified Chinese text from templates on-sight (see diffs [192], [193], [194], [195], [196], [197], [198]), and called Soong Ching-ling a, quote, "lover of communist bandits" (see diff), which makes it very hard to assume good faith. --benlisquare_T•C•E 05:14, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Complimenting Benlisquare above, the "hs-" romanization is more common in Taiwan, in say Hsinchu (which will be Xinzhu if we are using the system common in mainland China the pinyin system as stated in WP:PINYIN). The removal of simplified Chinese names from Chinese subjects who has little affinity with the mainland might be warranted by certain considerations (but would need extensive discussion and widely accepted consensus first hand). But blatantly changing of a quote that sources easily support to potentially attack a person may indicate we are seeing a rather POV-pushing fellow here that does not like the Chinese Communist Party very much. 野狼院ひさし u/t/c 12:09, 12 April 2015 (UTC) + 12:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive reverts by Sturmgewehr88

See also: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan § RfC: Flag of Ryukyu

See also: Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous) § A "national flag" without secondary sources

Sturmgewehr88 (talk · contribs) conducted mass (~100) reverts to reinstate a flag after it became clear that his proposal to do so failed to gain support from other Wikipedians at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan#RfC: Flag of Ryukyu. I believe admin actions are needed to stop his disruptive editing practices. --Nanshu (talk) 06:01, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

No, I had intended to revert your mass removal of the flag as a "Wikipedia hoax" the moment I saw it, but I wanted to discuss it with you first. I have every right to revert you for removing a "hoax" when it clearly is not. The RfC (which failed to gain support in either direction) is about wether we should keep or completely remove the flag after you challenged its legitimacy. Note that I didn't revert all of the edits concerning the flag, and none of the edits concerning another flag. The flag appeared in some infoboxes and should be removed per WP:FLAG (BTW Nanshu, you should've removed the Japanese flag too), and the second flag is possibly a Wikipedia hoax (shown by Nanshu's sources). I was in no way making disruptive reverts anymore than Nanshu was making disruptive edits. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 14:09, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Here is an updated incident report.

• Sturmgewehr88's proposal to reinstate the flag failed to gain support from other Wikipedians. Yes, he failed (Now Infinite0694 voiced against his misuse of new sources I cited[199], and the situation became even clearer). He didn't even put a notice of mass reverts at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan#RfC: Flag of Ryukyu, a sign of his intent to downplay the unfavorable discussion. Given the situation, we can decide that he is trying to override the discussion by force. He thinks that he can accomplish his goal by editing much more frequently than others. He poses a real threat to Wikipedia.
• The most important point relevant to ANI is stated above. The following should be regarded as supplementary information.
  1. In the above, Sturmgewehr88 tried to equate his mass revert with mine. That's a pretty thin excuse. On April 2, I added lots of new materials to the Commons image description pages. With these, I had a right to be bold. By contrast, Sturmgewehr88 requested comments, which is not bad. But once the situation became unfavorable to him, he openly ignored the discussion. He is challenging the way Wikipedia works.
  2. He still ignores the two points I raised in the discussion. (1) We have a secondary (not primary) source in which the author concluded that he was unable to find contemporary sources in which the phantom flag was used as a national flag.
  3. (2) We should not give undue weight to the flag. In my opinion, it can appear at most twice. One is dedicated to the mystery about the flag and the other is about the reliability of Wikipedia (there is an external source on the meta discussion). He should have made a convincing argument for its use in hundreds of articles.

--Nanshu (talk) 14:32, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

"Updated incident report"? The only "real threat" I pose is to you and your POV pushing. I'm not letting you have your way so you're labeling me as a disruptive editor. After all, how can someone with "no talent for historiography" dare challenge you, an "expert". Again, the RfC has failed to gain consensus, but not in the sense that you're insinuating here. No one but me has addressed the actual topic of the RfC; Infinite0694 claimed that there are no RS concerning the flag, and Prosperosity said that a betterknown symbol should represent WP:RYUKYU. No, I didn't leave a notice about my reverts at the RfC, I left it at your talk page if you didn't notice. You do have the right to be bold, but I have the right to revert and challenge those bold edits, especially in this case. If you label something as vandalism when it is not, I can revert you; is there some policy or guideline that says I can't revert you for mislabeling something as a hoax?

And I'm trying to "accomplish [my] goal by editing much more frequently than others"? Well, considering that my goal is to improve Ryukyu/Okinawa related articles and I edit almost every day, I wouldn't deny that. You, on the other hand, don't make a single edit in over a month and suddenly reappear with walls of text and 100+ edits with the same edit summary. And you accuse me of doing such.

Your secondary source doesn't deny that the flag was the national flag and only was aware of a single primary source. The flag has no place in an article about Wikipedia's reliability; how can this be a "Wikipedia hoax" when there is a source explicitly stating that the flag is the Ryukyuan national flag from 1854? Wether you think it's reliable or not, the date alone proves that some Wikipedian didn't just make up the flag and/or inserted it to intentionally trick others. Because it is a national flag, it already has the proper WP:WEIGHT.

And I'm challenging the way Wikipedia works? You rarely answer questions or comments I leave on your talk page (WP:WQ says "do not ignore resonable questions"), and, since you too have failed to gain support at the RfC, you've opened an ANI thread to have me blocked instead. Besides, I didn't know a 0RR was in place for edits concerning the flag? ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 20:07, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Since there is no responce from other Wikipedians, I requested for comments at Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#A "national flag" without secondary sources. Time is up today... --Nanshu (talk) 16:32, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

@Nanshu: So now you're resorting to forumshopping? ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 16:48, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Manipulated and mystified sources

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Obviously Josip Broz Tito's text is full of citations made by titoist supporters and article is heavily polluted by sources manipulated and mystified by people who probably act in agreement with each other! In introduction there are sentences which describe mirabilia of Broz Tito's in national economy and diplomacy with sources which don't claim those situations: sources are total invented! In talk page you can read critics by several users but User:Tuvixer started edit war on article against: Tzowu, Silvio1973, Passando, Teo Pitta and some IPs. Again in talk, at my question why titoists did remove section regarding historical criticism, no answer was result.My question: is this post personal attack? Am I loony? --Passando (talk) 07:51, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) With all due respect, I'm guessing English is not your first language, so I'm not 100% sure what the dispute is. What I can figure out is that you think the article is non-neutral. I read the article and I don't see a neutrality problem; where do you think the problem is? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 08:34, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I have been dealing with this editor on my talk page and on the article talk page. He has been asked to provide specific changes and challenges but has been more interested in assailing the editors. JodyB _talk 12:18, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I would have personally used a RfC instead of an ANI to report this concern. However, the issue is real. IMHO the article is non-neutral. Indeed, what is non-neutral is the lead rather than the article in its whole. And other users (see in the Talk page) have raised this concern. Some examples:

1. 'His internal policies successfully maintained the peaceful coexistence of the nations of the Yugoslav federation.' This sentence is not sourced. Indeed I provided a source stating exactly the opposite, but my edit has been reverted and qualified of revisionist.
2. 'Tito was seen by most as a benevolent dictator'. Indeed one source claims that, but the way the lead is written suggests this opinion is shared by the most of the sources.
3. In the lead the first five lines report 14 sources. Too many. The sources are used to selectively report a POV description of Tito, instead they should be used in the rest of the article. The lead in the actual state is not the summary of the article, but rather an article on its own. Silvio1973 (talk) 14:02, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

This is not the place for a content dispute. Please see WP:DR for other avenues which you can take. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:06, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

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Anglicanus - constant hounding

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There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

(Non-administrator comment) Huh? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 08:34, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

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Anglicanus - constant hounding

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Dear Sirs - for a long while now I have been confronted by Anglicanus' constant interference. It is becoming difficult to introduce new info without him challenging my edits or MOS - I have tried to explain as best I can about how some info doesn't always sit (or fit) well with this MOS policy. However should Anglicanus & others wish to adapt the narrative to Wiki's current MOS then that is fine by me, but from my point of view I simply wish to represent the facts.
Since there are very many articles which are substandard I fail to understand why Anglicanus engages in such petty disputes with me (which could so easily be avoided - eg I provide info & he can correct the MOS, if that is his wont). Anyway please issue a decree as to what should happen going forward - he & I are locked in a constant argy-bargy - I trust Wiki prefers to have genuinely good content introduced & not forsaken for MOS? I am sure you can think of a solution to this mess. Many thanks M Mabelina (talk) 08:31, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

PS. perhaps you can guide me ref MOS?

Justice of the peace article is a perfect case in point - it makes no sense to me how some proper nouns are capitalized and others are in lower case, qv Crown & Lord Chancellor versus justice of the peace. It makes no sense to me since it is inconsistent - what is the policy? Many thanks M

for your guidance, it should really be: Justice of the Peace, qv: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/25/contents

• Mabelina, you need to provide diffs to demonstrate the activities or behaviors you are talking about; otherwise, anything you say is just a vague accusation with no proof or evidence. Also, remember to sign your posts; and do not add snide comments like "for your guidance, it should really be: Justice of the Peace, qv: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/25/contents". Also, please remove the duplicated thread posting above and move it to the talk page of the editor you are discussing, where it belongs. Softlavender (talk) 08:41, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
  • This really isn't what I came to Wikipedia to engage in - turf wars. Surely the Admins can see the quality of info being provided? (I've seen how some do massive quotes about who said what to someone else - is this is what is required to launch a formal complaint?) M Mabelina (talk) 08:45, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

You haven't provided any information or proof, just vague complaints. If you are not willing to back up your claims with proof, then you'd best withdraw this complaint entirely, or it may WP:BOOMERANG against you. Read WP:DIFF, which I posted twice to you already. Right now you just appear to be whining, and lecturing people on how great the "quality" of the info you provide is, and lecturing experienced editors you haven't even interacted with on how to spell/capitalize things. Please also remove the bizarrely duplicated thread posting above and move it to the talk page of the editor you are discussing, where it belongs. Softlavender (talk) 08:58, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• Just offhand, glancing at the page history of the OP's talk page, block log, and the nature of their comments and replies, I think we may have a WP:CIR issue here of long standing, and it may be time to show them the door unless they agree to cooperate, listen to experienced editors who know what they are talking about, and edit collaboratively rather than edit-warring over what they believe should be the way things are around here. Softlavender (talk) 09:16, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support indef of Mabelina – this editor's last couple of go-rounds at ANI have left a sour taste in my mouth, and the fact that they have learned nothing over the last month, and continue to disruptively edit can, at best, be considered a WP:CIR issue... --IJBall (talk) 16:33, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support indef of Mabelina per longterm WP:CIR problems and disruptions in spite of attempts at rehabilitation. Enough is enough. Softlavender (talk) 02:01, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
• Weak support. I'm a little on the fence about an indef because I don't (yet) know the in-depth info of the OP's previous threads; nonetheless, I think someone bought a ticket to Australia. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 03:04, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

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User:Remenu and Aromanian articles

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Remenu (talk · contribs) is a WP:SPA whose sole interest seems to be adding a very dubious and contentious flag in articles on the Aromanians, as well as other occasional WP:OR items like sun worship and other nonsense. He has been reverted numerous times, the reasons have been made abundantly clear to him, proper procedure for editing and sourcing has been explained over and over, he has been warned several times by me and User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, has been repeatedly blocked, and yet every time after a couple of days there he is adding it back and making a few cosmetic changes to mask it. So far his contributions have produced nothing of substance except needless work for other users in the articles he frequents. I propose a permanent block of the account. Constantine ✍ 09:27, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm. Considering that Cplakidas had to have a 15,000-byte conversation with him, in German, and he still didn't get the message, perhaps an indef block is the only answer since the three previous blocks, and assorted attempts at getting through to him, didn't take. Softlavender (talk) 09:41, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I think an indef topic ban concerning Aromanians, Vlachs, and Macedonia, broadly construed, under the Balkans discretionary sanctions is not an unreasonable reaction after this sustained edit warring and disruption. This editor has been given plenty of chances and it's time to put an end to the disruption. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 12:02, 11 April 2015 (UTC).

The problem is, given his record he will simply ignore it, and we'll be back here in a few days asking for a permanent and full ban. He is very much here for a single purpose, and if after repeated blocks he hasn't given up, I doubt a topic ban will deter him. Constantine ✍ 20:26, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I have indef-blocked him. In addition to all the other disruptive activities, I also found him re-uploading images with no copyright/source declaration whatsoever, after an explicit final warning about just that behaviour just the other day. Judging from his behaviour in talk threads, this editor clearly lacks the competence to understand the basic rules of this place. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:55, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

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User:TYTA Mahesh

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Could someone with rollback privileges please review User:TYTA Mahesh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)? Looks like all edits made today need to be reverted (per previous edits) - nonsense user warnings, unsourced content, copyvios, bias, obviously false claims, etc. 82.132.236.222 (talk) 10:09, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Non-constructive edits reverted. I'm going to go drop a note at the teahouse to see if they can help to prevent them getting blocked. Amortias (T)(C) 10:28, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

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Advocate

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I'm a writer. What I do is I'm an advocate. I've so far had publications in two of Australia's most renowned libraries and I feel I could be of use here on Wikipedia. 82.132.233.229 (talk) 10:49, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

So what case are you bringing to AN/I? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 11:00, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi, the page youve posted on is designed to deal with problems complaints and the likes. If your looking to learn what you might be interested in or what might be an area you can add to the best bet would be to drop by the Teahouse where you can get a bit of an introduction as to whats what and where to go from there. Amortias (T)(C) 11:03, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

There is an issue surrounding terrible things which happened, but this may not be the best platform. Anyway, I've posted in the Teahouse so thanks for your help. I award you the anti-vandalism barnstar! 82.132.225.85 (talk) 11:46, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Your editing experience would be enhanced if you created a user account. Since you are using multiple IPs, it makes it almost impossible to communicate with you since you don't have a stable user talk page. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 13:18, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

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Protection expired vandalism continues

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The article Visa requirements for Indian citizens: Revision history was locked on April 5 until April 8 for persistent vandalism (adding deliberate factual errors). Today it continued again, the same thing, the same IP address behind it. I propose a seriously longer protection (as in 6 months) as the IP address apparently belongs to a University and can't be blocked for too long.--Twofortnights (talk) 12:01, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

If you're talking about Visa requirements for Indian citizens, I don't see any recent problems in the edit history. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 12:21, 11 April 2015 (UTC).

None of the edits have got through but edit filter 30(large deletions) 172(section blanking) and 636(unexplained removal) have been tripped many times. It might be better taking this back to WP:RFPP as the appropriate venue for page protection. Amortias (T)(C) 12:26, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

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Bad article restore

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Recently Graeme Bartlett restored Matt Henshaw after a speedy deletion. This was wrong on many levels. 1. The first step to challenge such a deletion is to approach the deleting admin, in this case CactusWriter. Staying true to form, Mr Bartlett did not do so. User talk:CactusWriter#Matt Henshaw? Deleted? Why??, just informed 707 that his page was back. 2. As the editor who published this page from AfC Mr Bartlett is involved. 3. Most significantly Mr Bartlett chose to restore an old version. He chose to ignore any edits after his Cleaning up accepted Articles for creation submission (AFCH 0.9). When asked to explain why he just avoided the question User talk:Graeme Bartlett#Matt Henshaw. duffbeerforme (talk) 12:01, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• On a purely technical level, it was also a bad delete because the article was not eligible for G4 (not being a straight recreation of the version killed at AFD). Even given that, I wouldn't have restored the article in this way either, but I'd like to hear an explanation from Graeme Bartlett before we break out the torches and pitchforks. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 12:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC).
• Perhaps a bad deletion, but un-deleting something you have published yourself (AFC or not) is a no-no. Doing so without discussing it with the admin in question (who may very well have agreed to undo his own deletion given the circumstances) is a bit silly also. I suspect this was an WP:IAR decision and probably not a hanging offence, but Mr Bartlett should probably consider a fish dinner in this instance. St★lwart¹¹¹ 07:11, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• I have been mostly offline for a few days, and I am certainly willing to reinstate the Duffbeerforme changes, but I have hardly done anything on Wikipedia since the request. Why I did not restore the editions was that they included the delete request, but it can be sroted out by editing. So I will get the edits of Duffbeerforme back in again. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:18, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

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Disruptive editor refusing to allow consensus, violations of WP:CIVIL

Hello, I need some help with an editor, Cebr1979. They have insisted on adding dates to recurring cast members of the List of Days of our Lives cast members page. Originally, when the page was created, the dates were added. They were removed in 2007 because they can't be verified. Recently, Cebr1979 has decided to add them back, despite the fact that they do not pass WP:V. He/she says that WP:SOAPS allows the show itself to be used as a source, even though the recurring cast members are not listed there every day. My first issue with this editor is the violation of WP:V, and their insistence that "there doesn't need to be a consensus", his/her unwillingness to wait and see what other editors have to say. My second issue with this editor, is his/her blatant violations of WP:CIVIL. There are several instances on my talk page User:rm994, where he/she has calle d me names like "roadblock" and "bully". I also believe we are seeing an issue with WP:OWN. I tried to offer this up for consensus, and he/she did not respond or wait. I need some help to resolve this. Otherwise, it's just going to turn into an edit war, as you can see by his/her contributions, they are determined to make the page how they want it, despite what anyone else may think. Rm994 (talk) 15:47, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Rm994, there is a big, orange notice that asks you to notify all involved parties that you have posted this report. I've alerted Cebr1979 on their talk page. It's an important step so that they can respond. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:53, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that. Was doing that right when you did it for me. Thank you for doing it :) Rm994 (talk) 15:55, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Great! Unfortunately, it's a step that is often overlooked. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:23, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

"despite what anyone else may think" is wrong. Rm994 is the only one that doesn't want them there and he's been preventing it for years. This has already been discussed three times here on wikipedia, I'm not doing it a 4th. Thank you for notifying me, Liz, but I won't be returning to this conversation.Cebr1979 (talk) 21:26, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

For anyone interested, here are the other three conversations: 1, 2, 3. Cheers.Cebr1979 (talk) 21:31, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

One editor has been preventing it for years? How can one editor override a consensus? Maybe because there isn't one, and when I tried to make one again, you won't even bother, and just assert that you're right and nothing needs to be discussed further? And no, I am NOT the only one who thinks these are unverifiable. No mention of the name calling I see. Please admins, we need your help on this one. Rm994 (talk) 00:45, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) "How can one editor override a consensus?" Um...it appears that that's Cebr1979's whole point. Anyway, I read the other three discussions and, well, it looks likes you'd better watch out for the boomerang, Rm994. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 02:56, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh really? Have I resorted to name calling or edit warring? I don't think so. And since when it is a crime to want something to be verifiable? Isn't that what the point of WP is? And if there was such a consensus, why weren't the dates added then? My only point is that a consensus should be reached before controversial material is added, and as of now, no such consensus exists. Rm994 (talk) 03:18, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

User :Klõps

he keep edit warring over the articles of Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic, Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic and Template:Republics of the Soviet Union he keeps removing Preceded and Succeeded in the infobox but all other soviet republics use that, he keeps classifing equal republics in the soviet republics template by the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s when another user already warned it by him!, yes i reverted many times but so has he but the diffrence is that hes reverts are unconstrutive 81.235.159.105 (talk) 15:55, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• I notified the IP that They should discus their ideas on talk page before.
• IP copied all the warnings I left on Their talk page to my talkpage
• The IP is arguing is that there should be predecessor and successor flags on these three pages. This in fact is overly complicated. Lithuania is both predecessor and successor and Reichskommissariat Ostland also goes both directions. Template:Infobox former country states that If the predecessor and successor are the same, and this predecessor/successor continued to exist during this period, do not list either. Instead, make it clear what this state was somewhere in the events section (if necessary). --Klõps (talk) 16:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Though I sympathize with the IPs frustrations, this isn't the way to settle a content dispute. It's best to get a consensus at the article-in-question, for any changes. GoodDay (talk) 17:03, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) WP:EWN might be the place for this. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 02:51, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Attempted outing and harassment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

(I posted this on behalf of User:Rationalobserver, I'm not endorsing this posting and neither am I saying it is without merit. Just posting for a possible issue) Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC) User:Montanabw has attempted to out my physical location on-Wiki. First she stated: "RO edited logged out and geolocated to Las Vegas", but later amended the statement to read: "RO edited logged out and geolocated to Las VegasCalifornia". I have never revealed my geographic location on-Wiki nor have I ever intentionally edited while logged-out. There was one time that the website interface failed, and it recorded my IP, but I immediately asked an admin to hide the diff, which they did. This is an attempted outing and harassment. Posted on behalf of RationalObserver Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• Reply: The editors Rationalobserver and SheriWysong have not been "outed." Per WP:OUTING, "However, if individuals have identified themselves without redacting or having it oversighted, such information can be used for discussions of conflict of interest (COI) in appropriate forums." Here both editors have edited while logged out and did not revdel their edits. I could not care less who they are, only if they happen to geolocate to similar enough areas that a bit of IP-hopping could link them. The conversation which raised the question is occurring [200]. Further, it is User:SheriWysong (who signes her edits "LynnWysong") who complained that **she** was outed last night but it is now Rationalobserver complaining that **she** has been outed! Hmmm. I think this is pretty strong evidence we have a sock (HIAB, when did RO send you the email, in comparison to Wysong's GOTCHA statement to me?).
• To make my case, let me lay out what I have so far: I do not know if my evidence is sufficient, but I am still laying out a case, so obviously it is incomplete.

1. I believe that User:Dennis Brown may have gotten email from Rationalobserver about this page and opened the AfD notification suggested this. That's fine, Dennis is doing his job.
2. In that debate, User:SheriWysong showed up. She is someone I suspect may be a sockpuppet, she's clearly not a new user. I am trying to figure out if she's connected to Rationalobserver and/or ItsLassieTime, as they all have a similar editing style, but I feel I did not have clear enough evidence, so was accumulating diffs in the "Duck box," (after WP:DUCK) along with those of a couple other accounts that had similarities to ItsLassietime socks.
3. Wysong commented at the AfD for the Duck box, and in my defense, I pointed out that she was doing the same thing with me - accumulating diffs in her own sandbox, nd for folks here, I will note an interesting section heading of hers, "Behaving One's Self Pays Off": [201] It's also interesting that she began this section on April 2-3, the exact same day User_talk:Rationalobserver was blocked for six months (Coincidence?).
4. At the duck box AfD, Wysong also commented here, "Just like I told the blocking Admin, I'd be fine with anyone doing an SPI and IP comparison. (This a ref, probably to Wysong pinging User:Coffee here, the day RO was given a six-month block) Well, from IP edits I'd seen when working on the articles where we had conflict, (I sometimes check IP edits to see if they are vandals or not) it was clear Wysong had simply edited while logged out and that she moves around a lot. So, in response to that comment, I commented on two times Wysong had edited logged out, against the first time I'd had a tendentious anon IP editor edited the same problematic article with a tone similar to hers a week or so before her username popped up, noting the close geographic connection, and my suspicion that the first edit was RO.
5. I then realized I probably needed to find the original diffs, and when checking RO's diffs, I found she'd actually edited logged out on a different article from a different IP and so I fixed my edit. RO still could be Wysong, but I couldn't tie RO to the Las Vegas IP, and didn't want to be inaccurate. (You can still drive in a day between these locations, however)
6. When notified of this ANI, @Hell in a Bucket: asked me to provide my information, so at the specific request of HIAB, here it is: and no, I have no intention to "out" either user, they could be IP-hopping from a home base Sri Lanka for all I care. Additionally All of these diffs were live and publicly viewable as of last night.

• Wysong appears as an anon IP in Feb at Wild and Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971, geolocates to Las Vegas
• Wysong edits logged out Feb 21 [202], geolocates to Central Utah
• Wysong edits logged out Feb 23: [203] geolocates to NW of Provo, Utah
• Wysong edits logged out on March 3: [*https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wild_and_Free-Roaming_Horses_and_Burros_Act_of_1971&diff=next&oldid=649768726], geolocates to NW Utah again, similar area
• Also didn't mention this one from last fall: Wysong edits George Gibbs while logged out: [204], geolocates to Denver
• RO edits logged out Feb 27: [205], Geolocates Bay Area

Hope this clarifies matters. Montanabw^(talk) 20:03, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Too much drama folks. Move on with something constructive!♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:07, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I completely agree, I have no idea why there's so much effort to reveal RO's location, it's taking the wrong sockpuppet inquiry far too personally. This is stalking and harassment ☠ Jaguar ☠ 20:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

This is some really, really scary stalking. Lynn Wysong (talk) 20:16, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

admits your general location at your user page as "Great Basin." As do I with my user name, Montanabw. I could care less who you are or where you live. Frankly, if your IP is accurate, you are too damn close to me and that worries ME. I only object to you abusing multiple accounts for the purpose of disrupting wikipedia and evading attention. Montanabw^(talk) 22:07, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Ummmmm, are you making some kind of accusation that I might hunt you down? I'm not the one stalking IPs here. Lynn Wysong (talk) 01:02, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

WP:OUTING is intended to protect people from real-life harassment; it isn't a shield for sockpuppets to hide behind so they can avoid scrutiny. I could not care less who you are. But I've had a couple very strange and weird people out me on Wiki, so I know the difference. Montanabw^(talk) 05:49, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

FYI, no one emailed me I had RO page on watchlist from some earlier very brief interactions. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 20:25, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Ah, I see. SheriWysong emailed Coffee the day RO was blocked, I assumed it was an email. They both have asked me to stay off their talk pages, so I have. Montanabw^(talk) 22:07, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

This seems like a colossal amount of trouble trying to track down an editor that could be used on more productive activities. Content, not contributors, right? This seems to have become quite personal to you and I'm not sure what the two editors have in common or why you are discussing IP locations. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:22, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Content is originally what gave rise to this, as I was one of the people helping clean up that massive mess User:ItsLassieTime made a few years back, but I don't want to waste bandwidth on the current content editing issues that occurred this round, but both of these users do some of the same things LassieTime did, particularly with close paraphrasing and not understanding copyright. Montanabw^(talk) 22:07, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

"I don't want to waste bandwidth on the current content editing issues that occurred this round" = "I really don't have proof"? Lynn Wysong (talk) 22:20, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Stop WP:BAITing me, Wysong. ANIs can WP:BOOMERANG. Montanabw^(talk) 22:27, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I didn't file this ANI, Cupcake. Lynn Wysong (talk) 22:31, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• For the record, I was pointed to the page, but MFD was a decision I made because I think it treads over the line of WP:POLEMIC, although I don't think malice was the intent. Obviously I will respect the consensus of the community. As for this case above, I'm not not up to the task of digging around and think a less involved admin should review, so I would have no comment on the merits. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:28, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
  • In response to Dennis Brown, since RO had this thread opened I'll comment only on that account. What we need is for uninvolved admins or even for the arbs to take a very close look at that account because there's been a massive amount of drama since it was opened. Issues that need to be looked at are why the account seemingly picked up a dispute with Dan56 though apparently there was no prior interaction. Why was the Radiopathy SPI courtesy blanked? Why was the account's user page deleted? What about the Jazzerino SPI and who is behind those accounts? Why is an account that's blocked opening a thread at AN/I? Without the constant drama, the many blocks, Coffee's near de-syssop, the amount of volunteer hours spent on this, it wouldn't be important, but imo it's reached a tipping point. Victoria (tk) 16:27, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
    • No one called for Arb to take a look at the RO account more than I did and I was one of the first to express concern. As far as I can tell, RO forwarded information to Arb, which didn't issue any sanction. That is what people are missing here: Concerted efforts have been made to link RO to other editors and have failed. At some point, you need to pull back or you are just harassing an editor, and it becomes an editor retention issue. No matter how much someone is convinced RO is a sock, WP:AGF comes into play, and you either make a case (then live with the outcome) or you stop. I can name you dozens of people whom I would bet are sock puppets, but I don't publish lists on them and try to make them die a death of a thousand cuts. Again, after a couple of attempts, you pull back until you have rock solid evidence, not out of kindness, but because policy DEMANDS it. I'm not here proclaiming RO's innocence, this is about process and how far we go to push ANY editor away. We don't get to break the rules just because our gut says "you are guilty". You could substitute any other editor's name, and my position would be the same. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:49, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
      • I was unaware of that and understand what you're saying but equally we should put up with only so much disruption from one account. I don't buy the retention issue because that works both ways. And a lot of effort is being spent that could be spent writing content. Anyway, thanks for the advice. Sorry to see the perception that I'm the one going against policy. Victoria (tk) 17:05, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
        • We can all get caught up with our torches and pitchforks from time to time, I'm not immune either. I'm just saying we should all pull back a bit, if you want to build a case, do so quietly, and always, ALWAYS remember that no matter how convinced we all can be of anything, sometimes we are wrong, which is where AGF comes in. Again, my concern isn't merits, it is methods. RO is blocked for a long time, there is no pressing issue at hand. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
          • Some of us are good at wiki politics (and game playing), some not. I'm in the latter category. But I'm a woman of a certain age who has written a lot of good content for this place, introduced well over a thousand students to editing WP, never once got a pretty editor of the week award or anyone asking if I might qualify for tools; I rarely speak out because I know better (and because I'm shy), and when I do, the response is pitchforks. Think about it. And think about morale. And think about harassement. And think about editor retention. Victoria (tk) 17:46, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mahendra Niraula - competence is required

Mahendra Niraula (talk · contribs) does not appear to have adequate skills in English language to contribute usefully to English Wikipedia. He also seems incapable of understanding the rules and procedures of the encyclopedia.

As an example see his edit of this morning where among other things he breaks a "citation neeed" template by losing its opening bracket, signs his name at the end of the article, adds wording such as "in the Eastern Region Development of (Nepal)." (it's already been pointed out to him that "Development region" is English but "Region Development" is not, and I suppose the brackets were an attempt to make a link), adds under "See also" something tagged as a reference which is a dead URL (as are most of the links he has added recently to various pages), renames the "References" section to "External references" ... and more.

In another pair of edits today he removed an infobox and, curiously, added some maintenance templates (perhaps copied from another article or reverting incompetently to an earlier version?), removed the {{reflist}}, generally messed up the article, including reverting to the name of the school which he prefers but which is not supported by the school's own website (and we have explained this on his talk page). He doesn't use edit summaries, so we don't know what he was intending to do in that edit. His talk page shows that various editors have interacted with him since January to try to guide his editing but he continues to do more harm than good to the encyclopedia. I suggest that it is time to protect the encyclopedia from this well-meaning but incompetent editor. He is keen to edit English Wikipedia as well as Nepal Wikipedia, but he just doesn't seem capable of doing so usefully. PamD 18:23, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Note: the following post was added after many comments below. PamD 08:30, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

@PamD: :Yea,I also know very well that encyclopedia is a place where everything happened in the world in different times are recorded for use permanently so,it's true as you pointed me of having keen interest to work for Wikipedia but only a weakness is not good standard of grammar and it's good to point out saying "English language is incompetent.Competency in grammar is a matter of being super hero in language of any countries and is considered to have been a super expert that person who knows everything about grammar. Even a English language's teacher fails to teach his/ her students to make pass all of them in the exam therefore, don't make a large issue here about me with such a matter of competency.No I have presented any violence acts like threatening, challenging of attacking to any editors or someone else. I am just a new editor having strong desire to edit Wikipedia.Competency in linguistic for me is one of the main thing that requires to be a competent person in English language. But not in all field of grammar is competent a even a teacher of the English lang. No doubt on it that it's a strong attempt of blocking my user page by all of you by making a pretension. Don't think that this complaint is only for you and for other too who are actively alerting on such discussion page. Mahendra Niraula (talk) 08:19, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh God! I am sorry for complaints made above about me and would like to request to stop reporting such an issue when a editor is quite new but wanna prefers to do help Wikipedia with new articles adding and editing. As to the article (ishibu) it has been done by another new editor who is related to me not by me,you know this?

You go on checking me and looking at my edits and messages posts on my talk page,I will change my everything related to article for (Wikipedia). I urge you that I am not intending anything else to do here in edits forWikipedia except for helping with edits and more.Neither it is a place for chatting with girlfriend as a romantic gossip nor a play ground for game play so, you believe me since you are also editor for :Wikipedia that he (mahendra) is just trying to be a English Wikipedian whatever the challenges are appeared in front of him.It takes more time to be someone skilled in something and practice makes anyone perfect in doing something. Mahendra Niraula (talk) 20:27, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

* Note: minor formatting changes to above post by 'MN'. Looked for missing sig, needed +indent, - line break. 220 of ^Borg 01:15, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I know that my English is not superb (it is only my second language) but the edits of Mahendra Niraula are often very difficult to read or remain a mystery to me. The Banner talk 19:37, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

It's okay,English even for is only second language but what I wanted to let you know and ask that only tell me where you didn't understand on take page or in edits? If you didn't understand messages posted on talk page then how are you able to reply to my messages?But I am understanding all of your messages and complaints you made to me and am regularly talking back and replying them quickly. If were not able to understand English very well how I have been to UK and (UAE) in student visa?Mahendra Niraula (talk) 20:27, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) superfluous context comment -- I have been grading college comp papers all day from students from all over the world and still can not figure out most of this conversation without a lot of effort on my (the reader's) part. Ergo, the clarity of the language (grammar and syntax) in the article(s) at issue should probably be seriously addressed. HullIntegrity^\ talk / 20:47, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

well,whatever is being reported above here is just a complaint made by a editor when something wrong was appearing on my talk page at the time of talking to them for the discussion of any article. If I am wrong perfectly according to the report above posted to the notice board,then I am ready to sign out from Wikipedia for ever with the view of not coming again on it.Mahendra Niraula (talk) 02:24, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

This seems like a fatal combination of a) inadequate English language ability and b) ignorance of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Both can be improved over time but no one should be making bold edits when competence is being questioned. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:10, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

OK,it's a matter of seriousness about policies and guidelines of Wikipedia that I know these should not be broken or infringed while editing any edits in Wikipedia but sometime it may happen itself even when it is not wished to be so and I will go back to the article I created and edited after I posted them for release out.It's not been long time that I have joined in Wikipedia and it's been only over 3 months but the most of the complaints I get from editors are from those editors who have been more than 5 years so,I am still sorry because I thought I am being charged seriously.Mahendra Niraula (talk) 02:24, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Once again I am 'fixing" MH's post as they put it right after PamD's and on the on same line, without a line break. 4 indents added, not certain of correct number though! :-/ 220 of ^Borg 02:54, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Mahendra Niraula, you asked above, @ 20:27, 11 April 2015 (in your 'normal' overly long and very wordy manner), how we are able to reply if we don't understand your message/s? With great difficulty sometimes. We have to try to 'decipher' what you are writing about.
For example, you said above:

"If you didn't understand messages posted on talk page then how are you able to reply to my messages?"

Which I can easily understand, but it is a partial repeat of the previous sentence. The sentence before says, in part:

"... but what I wanted to let you know and ask that only tell me where you didn't understand on take page or in edits?"
(I have crossed out the necessary words)

This can be said very simply:

"Please tell me where you didn't understand me." 8(eight) words, asking the same thing, versus 24 (or more) words.

You also say:

"If were not able to understand English very well how I have been to UK and (UAE) in student visa?"

Well, I have no idea, likely no one else here does either. (It is not a good argument either) I do not even know if any spoken/written English is needed for a student visa to UAE or UK. Remember, it is your written English and ability to use it effectively on Wikipedia that is under discussion, not your spoken English ability or understanding of spoken English. Your spoken English could, possibly, be good, and your written English, and understanding of English grammar may not be good. You seem, for example, to know the words in English, but is it possible you are using word order, syntax, or grammar that is Nepali?

220 of ^Borg 02:47, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

@220 of Borg: : As to the whole post above you replied to me:While a student wishes or desires to enrole at any university or colleges,the competence and proficency of language in which the colleges are teaching to all students is required to show in those tests or exams for eg if a student is willing to study in the English speaking countries then the student should be competent or qualified in the English language in 4 degrees including (speaking,writing, listening and reading) which proves that the student is able to study in English language without any obstructions.Let's not stick in such unrelated issues which are beyond the subjects of Wikipedia and as to the question erected above at the last line of the post ,yea, no possible to use Nepali grammar in using English language because the English language is translated into Nepali with opposite direction, for example," I use a pen" where (I) refers to the subject (doer)

a pen"is object then verb is "use" respectively. Therefore, it's not a simple matter to write by translating the sentences of Nepali into English language and in terms of me sometime this method should be adopted when the sentence I write doesn't fix or give accurate meaning of what I am trying say.Despite the some improve able things being discussed above, my first craze to editing Wikipedia is about to fade like a blossom leaf of a beautiful flower because i am quite tired giving replies to editor and discussing into a lengthy subject. Though, the more we discuss, the sooner we get to conclusion,don't we ? Leave me a your positive views how often you are getting my points here on bottom of your replies of this message OK.CheersMahendra Niraula (talk) 05:38, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Indenting added, to MH's reply, again! 220 of ^Borg 05:54, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

@Mahendra Niraula: again you have given a needlessly long reply (see wp:TLDR). You said "Let's not stick in such unrelated issues." If you are referring to my comments about visas, remember it was you that brought up the issue of student visas and English competency, not me!
You then said:

"... my first craze to editing Wikipedia is about to fade like a blossom leaf of a beautiful flower." (18 words)

I find it hard to believe that people in Nepal talk like that. Do they? Try this instead:

"I am losing my enthusiasm to edit Wikipedia." (8 words)

It means almost exactly the same thing! As for your comments, I believe that you do "use Nepali grammar". 220 of ^Borg 07:57, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

And another an unsatisfactory thing about reporting me to ANI is : Mr.PamD didn't let me know anything about his idea of reporting my use page to ANI before submitting it to notice board of admin.He should at least have given in information or advices by saying why this is to be discussed there too.I have watched and noticed that most of the possible report have been let know to the editor to whom is being reported to ANI on their talk page before submitting the prepared report to ANI.Apologies,if understood wrongly. Mahendra Niraula (talk) 06:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

@Mahendra Niraula: who is this comment addressed to?
As far as I can tell, you were correctly notified of this discussion by PamD. See here and here and User talk:Mahendra Niraula#This has gone on for long enough at 18:35, 11 April 2015.
By the way, it is unnecessary to use "Mr.", apart from which, I think PamD is probably female as "Pam" is usually a feminine name. "Mr." is used to address men! :-/ 07:57, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

As to the post above here,I am really sorry for the the mistake I made I addressed as (Mr.) to the editor (PamD) by thinking that she might be just male.Yes, I know that Mr.refers to only male.Mahendra Niraula (talk) 11:45, 12 April 2015 (UTC) (indents added, again! 220 of ^Borg 18:02, 12 April 2015 (UTC))

I was one of the earlier editors to come into contact with MN. His "contributions" to articles of global importance such as Headache [206] and Stomach [207] obviously had to be reverted on sight. Subsequently he has stuck to local topics such as towns, villages and institutions in his part of Nepal and, sadly, his work is of similar standard to many, many other articles on local features of South Asia. So it may be argued on his behalf, "Why pick on me?" He is a good-faith editor and his editing would now pass largely unnoticed if it weren't for his lengthy and near-incomprehensible diatribes on talk pages: Noyster (talk), 08:18, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

With due respect, that's an odd argument, that we should allow consistently subminimal content because so much of it already exists. A self-reinforcing race to the bottom, isn't it? ―Mandruss ☎ 09:09, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

In fact, I met MN due to the article Myanglung and the links to disambiguation pages in the article. I was quite baffled to see the article and the mess that was created. Instead of fixing the dab-links, as was my original intention, I decided that it was necessary to revert the whole she-bang back from 24 February to the version of 20 December 2014, 156 edits back. A day later, the article was back and needed another revert. After that, I was in doubt what was going on here: a vandal or somebody not having a clue how to work Wikipedia. It was a message from Ganesh Paudel that made me easy on MN, not hammer him and look to it from a distance. But when even user:BD2412, a very helpful editor, need to use a summary as remove paragraph so poorly translated as to be gibberish things are really bad.

With the best if my ability, even when I invoke WP:AGF, my opinion is that MN is just incompetent to work on the English-language Wikipedia, due to his deficient English, hisignorance of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines and his slow rate of learning. The Banner talk 10:45, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

@Banner: : yea, that's right as to the post message above by you that my learning ability is a little bit slowand the mind dull as well so that this all is making disqualified in using English language properly. But I think again that the slow learning doesn't affect to edit the article and it can let a chance to edit properly, instead.Mahendra Niraula (talk) 12:04, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I would support an indefinite block. The user appears to be falsifying citations. For example, this article created today has one citation to [208]. The domain name isn't registered, and I can find no evidence it ever existed. This article, also created today, cites [209]: another fake domain. Same story with this article and its only reference [210]. Those are just the ones I checked. KateWishing (talk) 12:08, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

These may also resolve to errors in typing or transcribing things. I would propose as an alternative limitation, that User:Mahendra Niraula voluntarily limit his edits to talk pages (for now), where he can propose changes to be made; if the proposed addition suffers from comprehension issues, then other editors can point that out there, or fix them and add the information to the page, if it merits being added. bd2412 T 13:50, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I wondered about that possibility, but so far have failed to locate any plausible candidates for what these supposed sources were meant to be. At the same time I find it extraordinary that Mahendra Niraula is continuing to create new pages, when he obviously has neither the language competence nor the knowledge of Wikipedia required to do this successfully. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 15:33, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

As an example of basic competence take a look at Draft:Alcohol hang over. Bear in mind that this is currently his third attempt at getting this article accepted. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 15:44, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

We already have Hangover so Mahendras' page is a waste of time. 220 of ^Borg 18:02, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

  @KateWishing: et al. Something odd is going on with the sources MH is providing. I tagged some as dead-links, as I couldn't access them (from Australia) but PamD was able to get them. One source, (Nepal Police homepage I think) I couldn't access, but got a result when I clicked on the 'translate this page' link on the Google search results page. Strange! 220 of ^Borg 18:02, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

It's very odd: I could get that Nepal Police page to open OK (here in UK) and still can ([211]), but have since found many if not all of the links MN has added to be dead links, even when I removed the spaces he'd inserted into some of the URLs. I've tagged a lot of them as {{dead link}}, and most of the articles he's started have no non-dead links. I'm pretty sure he never follows any of his links to check them out. PamD 18:33, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

OMG! PamD I just clicked on your link and it worked!! 220 of ^Borg 03:15, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• I hope you don't mind a comment from me, @Mahendra Niraula: I have some experience with learning languages, and it does seem to be a lot easier to read a language than it is to write in it. When you read, the spelling, grammar and sentence structure are all there and (hopefully) correct, and you can understand it without needing great mastery of those things. But when you want to write in that language, you start with nothing and you have to create the correct spelling, grammar and sentence structure all for yourself. Unless you have mastered the foreign language to a very high degree, it is always going to be easier for you to read English written by native speakers than it is for native speakers to read English written by you. Understanding a language and being able to write in it to an academic level are very different things. Having read a number of your contributions now, I can see that your command of English is acceptable for some personal and conversational use (though I do have to think hard sometimes to work out what you are saying). But in my opinion you definitely do not have sufficient command of the language to be able to work on writing English language encyclopedia articles. I hope that doesn't offend you, but I just have to be honest with you. (PS: I have been to your beautiful country, and I found your people warm and welcoming.) Squinge (talk) 10:54, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• I've done edits where my language level ranges from zero (like here) to two (this edit). It's doable but have to keep it simple, use common sense and not too many - best to stay mostly on your mother tongue's Wikipedia. I tried going into the Swedish Recent Changes and bit off more than I could chew (what a mess) so I don't do that anymore. Be flexible and learn from your mistakes. SlightSmile 17:13, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Block endorsements

Endorse block. The representative sample of edits linked to in this thread shows that a majority are unconstructive; when combined with the language issues, I don't see how allowing this editor to continue editing here would improve the encyclopedia. This most recent creation just about sums this thread up. --Kinu ^t/_c 16:04, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Endorse block. Seems clear to me that this editor is doing more harm than good to the encyclopedia; never mind the stress inflicted on other editors in trying to decipher incomprehensible messages/comments.  Philg88 ^♦talk 16:14, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) -- Does anyone else think that this whole thing looks a little WP:Hoax (or intentional Admin abuse)? The language (grammar and syntax) from the editor seems very inconsistent. But maybe that is just me, and perhaps now is too late to point that out. HullIntegrity^\ talk / 19:21, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Endorse block I tend to bend backwards to assume good faith and not bite newbies. But I spent much of this morning going through the pages this editor has created and the competency is just not there, not with English (at least not well enough to write a Wikipedia entry) or Wikipedia policies, guidelines, editing practices and standards. I think some might give this editor a break because he is a student and English isn't his first language but the key consideration should be is whether he has improved since he started editing and I don't think he's made sufficient progress. There also a bit a local promotional writing in the articles that he creates that other editors like PamD have taken the time to address. We don't have enough active editors to have ones have to monitor others and correct all of their errors. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:09, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Hello,good morning! As to the post and issues come out here on ANI concerning my user page,I would strongly like to reveal that it's a pretty new editor and no anyone else is offering any break to work for Wikipedia at the time when being absent in Wikipedia.Who does give the break time to edit such a sensitive article in such a sensitive venue Wikipedia? Well,no anyone from here (Nepal) are professionally engaging into (Wikipedia) and there are students, teachers and many others are found as being an editor for the time being.In the case of me, I am a student studying currently in bachelor degree and in the month of 18,Dec, 2015 I joined on the Wikipedia.Mahendra Niraula (talk)

Endorse a competence block No matter how much good faith one assumes, editing on English Wikipedia requires a very high level of proficiency in English. Simply having a high level of English comprehension is not enough. All editors need to have sufficient proficiency to be able to communicate effectively and clearly. MN clearly shows that their idea of proficiency is at odds with what is required. Blackmane (talk) 02:37, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

@Black mane: : A political candidate will have a prominent possibility of winning the election when all voters are dropping those votes in the poll or votebox in favour of the candidate you wanted no matter how smart and dedicated to the service of Peoples he is. Now,this ANI is a poll venue for a moment supposedly and a candidate is being chosen. You also are following the Xerox copies of above editors so, thanks for that.Mahendra Niraula (talk) 06:49, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I sincerely assume good faith that your aim has always been to contribute to ENWP, but your reply to my !vote pretty reinforces my conviction that you really don't understand why you aren't considered competent to contribute here. Blackmane (talk) 10:31, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• Endorse - Quite frankly I'm struggling to understand a word he's saying..., Editors need to speak English as after all this is an English Encyclopedia, As others have noted he does seem to be doing more harm than good here so will have to Endorse. –Davey2010^Talk 02:57, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

@Davey2010: : Davey you see,for comments and endorsement doesn't require any financial amounts therefore, your comments and agreed ideas are welcomed a lot whatever you have placed as a endorsed ideas.Any evaluation of your works are done by another party not by yourself and i think you got my points clearly.Mahendra Niraula (talk) 06:49, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I hate to say this but I can't even make out your reply at all - I've read it 5 times and still can't get what you're trying to say .... Perhaps it's a better idea if you stick to editing an encyclopedia that's in your language. –Davey2010^Talk 14:25, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Endorse block per WP:CIR. It wouldn't exactly be breaking any new ground, would it? Seems fairly straightforward and routine to me. Wikipedia tries to be welcoming to newer editors, but the idea is to grow them into competence. We don't teach English language skills here. As for a notion of "fairness", such ideas only go so far, content has to come first, and in the end Wikipedia is not a charity organization. Per WP:CIR, the user should be encouraged to edit the appropriate Wikipedia site for his or her native language. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:06, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

@Mandruss: :Well, I agree on your ideas and opinions whatever you have expressed above here but I am still baffled and wondered on this subject that the article written in native language of any country can be read and understood by that country's peoples but if you wish to read a article written in Nepali language then it's very difficult for you to understand and read that's why your ideas of using just native language also is not so effective in my opinions and as an example,can reply to my posts here if I talked to you in my native language here on this talk page?May be,you are focussing to use native language since you are a native editor of English language, aren't you?Mahendra Niraula (talk) 08:59, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Due to your poor English I'm unable to understand what you are saying and therefore I can't respond. However, I can say this much, which may or may not be a response to your comment: If I attempted to edit ne.wikipedia.org, I would expect to be blocked there on WP:CIR grounds. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:08, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) -- I can actually translate that statement into standard English, but honestly cannot imagine being the (unpaid volunteer) editor to do so constantly. I will contact the editor about working with them on resources for working on standard English. HullIntegrity^\ talk / 15:04, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• Followup Comment -- Done. I will work with the editor personally if s/he is willing. HullIntegrity^\ talk / 15:23, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I assume that the interraction will take place off-Wiki as we appear to have consensus for a block.  Philg88 ^♦talk 15:49, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

User:Takkla telling other users that they are blocked

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This user is not an admin, but is claiming users have been blocked; this is harassment of other users, as it is not true. Examples here and here. They claimed I was blocked after reverting their unsourced content/vandalism at Pompey. Joseph2302 (talk) 18:25, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I've indef blocked the account for disruptive editing, including advertising and vandalism.  —SMALLJIM  18:30, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

That was actually Evlekis again. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 18:32, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

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RFPP Backlog

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If any Administrators have a minute, the backlog at RfPP is well past 12 hours. TIA! --IJBall (talk) 20:01, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Backlog cleared. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 21:10, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

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RFC: comments by Ymblanter

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Ymblanter (talk · contribs) just keeps reverting my edits on railway line article naming. And it's not bad, actually. At least compared to his "greeting" me with hoping for my being banned and moving to plain rudeness.

There are many sorts of people here at Wikipedia. Is it ok, however, for such behaviour to prevail among (select) sysops? SkyBon (talk) 20:02, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Please review WP:BRD – you were bold, you were reverted, now it's time to discuss. Note that article moves are a particularly sensitive area, and should generally not be done unless there is already consensus for a move, or there is generally assessed to be no opposition to the move. This is clearly not the case with your move attempts. Please remember that Wikipedia is governed by Consensus, so the kind of moves you want to make won't happen until consensus is reached that your suggested move is the best option. --IJBall (talk) 20:08, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Aside from Moscow Railway articles having nigh zero active editors in the last year (consensus with whom?), the locus of this RfC is not the article naming itself but the comments in the linked discussion. SkyBon (talk) 20:16, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

May be to add a bit of a background, Skybon was indefinitely blocked on Russian Wikipedia in 2011 (or was it 2010?) for harassing me, and, with the exception of a couple of brief periods when he had a chance to demonstrate his battleground behavior, still remains blocked.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:10, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

"Harassing" consisted of requesting sources for FA nomination. But again, this is not related to your incivility here. SkyBon (talk) 20:16, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Maybe you two could have a mutually agreed upon I-ban? It's not good to carry over a dispute on one wikimedia project to another. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:01, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

To be honest, I do not see why an Iban should be imposed on me juast because somebody moved several articles I have written and then failed to understand my explanations.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:05, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, between the two Wikipedias, it seems like you are both claiming to be harassed by the other editor and a voluntary interaction ban seems like the simplest solution. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Skybon was (and still is) indeffed, and the ban was upheld several times by Arbcom. He can claim whatever he wants. Concerning the current case, I gave him explanations at my talk page, but he preferred to take me to ANI.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:20, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

To be honest, I did not want to contact Ymblanter in the first place (his track record of power play in ru.wp is appalling among locals) however his reverts only gave me a choice of contact (which resulted in rudeness) or edit war. There are really no active editors on Russian Railways topics to "form consensus". SkyBon (talk) 21:45, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

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Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/JarlaxleArtemis

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Pretty sure it is him over at Jewish refugees, asked for page-protection about 10 reverts ago, (remember to semi the talk-page too). A few hours will not do; please make it about a week. If he is true to form, he will start vandalising all the articles I have recently edited: please keep them watched: at first vandalism: protect it *and* its talk-page. Huldra (talk) 20:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Definitely him: ĎEATH_TO_ARABS!_FREE_JUDEA! (talk · contribs) Please protect *any* page he edits. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:20, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I already protected the page; the two last socks have been blocked.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:22, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, great, (but please keep this report open a bit longer....there might be new incidences) Huldra (talk) 20:26, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Again: the talk-page of Jewish refugees needs to be protected (and latest socks blocked, etc, etc,) This cannot be stressed strongly enough: when dealing with this guy; never protect only the page, always protect also the talk-page. Huldra (talk) 20:51, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Next sock indeffed; if one more shows up, the talk page must be protected as well.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:21, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

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User:JacktheHarry

Jack has been adding CSD templates to user pages, some of them have not even been updated for a few years, for what he perceives to be "rubbish" without really explaining why. He also appears to have a history of uncivil behavior, such as outright accusing some people of trolling. - Amaury (talk) 23:16, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

JacktheHarry (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) In addition, is repeatedly adding poorly sourced content to BLP Cory Williams (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) after being informed that the sources are inadequate (blogs and chat rooms) to support the claims. Discussion re. RS: Talk:Cory Williams#View count inflation Reverts: 1 2 3 4 The cite supplied: gigam.com Popular YouTuber Cory “Mr. Safety” Williams has admitted to doing this (artificially inflating youtube views) as late as April. Those who game YouTube or make naked appeals for popularity are known in the community as ‘cheaters’ or ‘chuds.’ The first link is youtube, the second is 404. Jim1138 (talk) 00:38, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Also deleting other's talk: [212] Jim1138 (talk) 00:42, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I reinstated the talk page info that he deleted, but judging by his recent contribution history (not to mention all the warnings on his talk page), I would support some kind of block. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 02:47, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't just jump straight into a block, maybe put him on notice or something that doing this behavior would cause a block in the future as it's disruptive, unnecessary, and against policy. However if he does it again, I would support some sort of block (short--24 hours) to rectify the situation. Tutelary (talk) 04:24, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

JacktheHarry has reverted three editors on Cory Williams (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Discussion seems WP:DONTGETIT More dontgetit: User talk:AbigailAbernathy#Sources Is arguing Argumentum ad populum. Jim1138 (talk) 07:14, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

User:Montanabw

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This user has set up a Duckbox (User:Montanabw/Duck box) which holds irrational "evidence" to use to eventually accuse me of sock puppetry. The "evidence" being that I am a teenager who likes sixties music. I want this to end before it can begin, so I was hoping my name can be removed from this issue. This is an embarrassing use of this great system, so can we please stop this foolishness? TheGracefulSlick (talk) April 12, 1:05

This appears to be running its course properly through the MfD system. What administrative action are you asking to be performed here? Nakon 05:37, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Apologies, I'm not real sure on this system. I just do not want my name to be involved in that list when there is no liable reason for me to be associated with it. I've asked the user to remove me, but has not agreed to. Eventually, if it is not dealt with now, it will probably become a larger issue. TheGracefulSlick (talk)

"TheGracefulSlick", if anything at worst you are just digging yourself in deeper and calling attention to your disruption and probable sockpuppetry. At best you are just wasting everyone's time with this ANI. Recommend closure of this ANI thread. Softlavender (talk) 05:50, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Probable sock puppetry? My fears are coming true, users are losing their common sense. Please end this discussion, I have lost faith in the system.

Users are welcome to collect diffs for use in possible arbitration cases but may only be kept for a limited period. Please review Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Tobias_Conradi#Userspace for any further information. Nakon 05:57, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

But being a teenager who likes certain kinds of music? Is that really useful in any way?

Note: Softlavender is an associate of the user so I disregard her statement. TheGracefulSlick (talk)

Again, what administrative action are you looking for here? The collection of diffs in userspace is permitted per policy. Nakon 06:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

It's just an issue muddying my name. I have become associated, despite all my hard honest work, with a list somehow relating me to a long-dead sock puppet. I just want my name removed so I don't need to worry about defending myself later. Somehow I know my inexperience would be used against me, and I'll be punished for something I don't even know how to commit. TheGracefulSlick (talk)

It's not muddying your name. There has been no filing of any report, and the page is not viewable to anyone unless they somehow find their way to it by some other means. How did you even find out about its existence? That itself indicates you are probably involved in the case. You are the one muddying your own name by mentioning the page on ANI. If you have done nothing wrong, then there is no problem to be worried about. Meanwhile you seem to have no compunction about muddying other people's names publicly by bringing them to ANI unnecessarily and forcing them to defend themselves. Softlavender (talk) 06:46, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I, and a few other editors, were recently on an enemies page and it was soon deleted. It is no fun having another editor tracking your edits and using them against you, even if you are innocent of any misconduct. I hope this page will also be deleted if the information isn't used in a timely fashion. It's against policy to have this page indefinitely, waiting for the right time to file a report. It must be used in the next few weeks or the page blanked or deleted. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:12, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi Liz, just a suggestion if you're interested, but it might be a good idea to dip into some of the contribs of the 108 confirmed ItsLassieTime socks. For RL reasons I can't currently supply diffs but I'd urge you to read ItsLassieTime's talk page and that account's final edits, have a look at the Kathyrncelestewright and maybe the Tower4Sitz just to give you a sense of what some us of have been through (btw - that last acct. was posting to my user page before I changed names). Also wouldn't be a bad idea to take a look at the contribs for Buttermilk1950 and follow those threads. The more people who are aware of how damaging this user has been, the better. Victoria (tk) 16:40, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

The real question is who are you going to accuse next with little evidence to go by? How do you even know ItsLassieTime is still active? Have there been any confirmed new socks? Every effort you and Montana have done to try to pin Rational down for being a sock has failed, enough already. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:51, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Not talking about RO here KK. I'm inviting others to take a look at the ILT situation. People like Risker, Moonriddengirl, SandyGeorgia, and many more understand how destructive it was, and it's something more people be should be aware of because it seems to have dropped out of people's memories. Victoria (tk) 17:08, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Again though no concrete evidence has been brought forward that supports that ILT has returned. What is bothersome are the editors who are being tracked here that could be innocent, if you truly believe it is a net positive for Wikipedia then please provide some clear evidence here to open an SPI. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:32, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Again, I disregard her statement. It was brought to my attention by another user on my talk page, in a message I have deleted. I believe you should check before you, as well, make irrational connections. I'm finished with this argument, all I asked was to be removed from this list, as it is disrespectful to be a part of. If further issues stem from this, than I will do my best to keep my innocence. For now, I will go back to my work, you all can keep your sock puppets, I don't want any more association in this witch hunt.

The first "evidence" that was put in the Duck Box about the The Graceful Slick was February 23, almost seven weeks ago. Is that within the parameters of "limited time"? Lynn Wysong (talk) 12:43, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Sock lists

Are there any policies that prohibit editors from making sock lists without editors being made aware of it? Making sock lists behind other's backs in my opinion is very wrong, the editors involved have no chance to defend their actions. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:25, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• WP:POLEMIC, point three, although I sent it to MFD and the community is currently voting to keep it for reasoning I'm not sure is policy based. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:33, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree with you, I want to add that even if it is in the best intentions, sometimes the accuser is in the wrong. We cant and shouldn't have lists of people made behind their backs, if we do then it should be a mandatory policy that they are informed about it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:36, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm baffled by all of the Keep votes as a very similar user subpage was deleted a week or so ago on the grounds that the information would not be used in a timely fashion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Again, there should be a policy or guideline put into place regarding sock lists, how long they should be kept (If they are) or if they are un-needed (people are free to do research off wiki). - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:21, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Uncivil Accusations

I've been, for the last 10 days or so, putting together links to an issue directly related to TheGracefulSlick's concerns. This is Montanbw's constant and uncivil accusations of sock-puppetry with no willingness to actually compile real evidence and file an SPI. I'll go through a chronology now.

On January 27, Montanabw went to TenzinTashi5's talk page, and confronted him/her about the SPI currently being undertaken. On January 28 Montanabw was warned that her action "seems to approach being harassment."

On February 21 I made my first edits on a page that Montanabw monitors. He/She reverted my edits, and that's was the beginning of my conflict with him/her. Just two day prior an SPI had been filed accusing RationalObserver of being a sock of ItsLassieTime. So, ItsLassieTime was on Montanabw's mind, and a couple of days later he/she referred to me as "My Dear Lassie". At the time, I had no idea who ItsLassieTime was, and figured that Monatanbw was just being her typical condescending self. I finally gave up trying to collaborate with Montanabw, and on February 28 went to edit a another page, which unfortunately was also one that he/she monitors, although he/she had not been on that page since January 28. Montanabw followed me over there and reverted my edits. On March 2, Montanabw made a personal attack on me that finally led me to ask an admin for intervention. What I was not aware of, was that that admin and Montanabw had been having a private conversation, and he already had a prejudice against me. He accused me of following Montanabw to the Mustang article and then of being a sock. This was the first I knew I was even under suspicion of being a sock. I blew it off, because I figured that, at worse, and SPI would be initiated, and figured I had nothing to worry about, since this is and always has been my only account. So, I was shocked the next day when my account was suddenly completely blocked, even my talk page which I read from policy is only done only rarely. I managed to get another admin to intervene, and the block was lifted, but I was told I was still under suspicion. I kept saying, "fine, open an investigation" but it was never done. Instead, Montanabw continued to make remarks about me being a sock. On March 8 she claimed I had said I was "'very experienced' editor", which let to my posting of a rebuttal to that on my talk page. On March 12 Montanabw came on my talk page and accused me again. on March 17 he/she came back on my talk page and made snarky comments about the Rose-Baley Party article, which seemed strange to me at the time, but which now makes sense because now I know he/she suspected me of being RationalObserver, who had written the article, and so was trying to bait me. On March 19 Montanabw again called me "Lassie". That same day I opened a Dispute Resolution, and in the Summary of dispute by Montanabw I was again accused of being a sock, which could only serve to subvert the discussion. As usual, the collaboration went nowhere, so the DR was closed, but not before Montanabw got in a parting accusation.

Some of the links I have put up aren't of diffs, because the discussion is archived, and I don't know how open the edit history of archives. So, I hope it isn't too hard to follow. I just want this to stop. I want to be able to edit certain articles without my edits being immediately reverted and being constantly subverted, dismissed and the subject of personal attacks because Montanabw treats me like am guilty of something I'm not. Lynn Wysong (talk) 14:45, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

This along, with the This Stalking and Outing (where, as you might notice, Montanabw made yet another accusation here) I believe deserves some action. Lynn Wysong (talk) 14:54, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

See some of the users are finally addressing my concerns. I found it troublesome that, behind my back for weeks, a user has tracked me based on irrelevant personal information. I attempted to cooperate with the user to clear any suspicion, but he/she just took it as "confirmation" of sock puppetry. Now, I am afraid to make edits because in the user's mind that makes me connected to a sock puppet. User:TheGracefulSlick (talk)

A witch hunt is such an apt analogy here. It's like when they would tie up suspected witches and throw them in the water. If they drowned, they were innocent but dead. If they floated, they were killed for being a witch. It's the same thing here. You are accused, but when you protest and provide evidence of innocence, the fact that you are aware of the evidence is twisted to mean that you're guilty. It's nuts. Lynn Wysong (talk) 16:29, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Reply by Montanabw

• Rather than reply to the posts above with confusing threaded comments, I'll just put an overall reply here. FWIW, the timing of this is not great, I do have a RL job and do have to prepare for some RL work that will occur Monday and so my opportunity to respond until tomorrow afternoon may be somewhat limited, though I will try to check in again this evening. That said, I would be glad to answer specific questions from admins on this matter when I do get back online. Montanabw^(talk) 17:39, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• I have pretty extensively responded to Lynn/SheriWysong (that's a confusing signature) and others in the ANI filed on me above by Rationalobserver and at the AfD for the Duck box. I also pointed out to Wysong at the Duck box discussion that she may not have entirely clean hands - she began to accumulate diffs on me the exact same day that Rationalobserver was blocked. I suggest that, given that I have never taken either Wysong or TheGracefulSlick to ANI or to SPI so far, they may want to ask who is the target of a witchhunt. Montanabw^(talk) 17:39, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

The diffs I accumulated were just used this morning in the section above. I believe that I used them in a timely manner in accordance with policy. If an admin wishes to blank that section of my sandbox now, that's fine.Lynn Wysong (talk) 17:52, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• Also, this is not the first time a page of diffs I've kept has been up for discussion. In 2012, there was this AfD at which time the community ruled keep. @Dennis Brown: please note that there were some solid suggestions given there, and thus I viewed that AfD as providing solid guidelines for how to keep and manage such pages and I have tried to keep my postings in subsequent pages with minimal commentary so as to stay within those recommendations. Montanabw^(talk) 17:39, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• To be quite honest, the behavior of TheGracefulSlick wasn't troubling me too much (and I told her this) other than her penchant for uploading copyrighted images until this drama erupted. Right now, though, her tone and approach reminds me VERY much of User:Buttermilk1950, who also claimed to be a teenager. That user was a sock of ItsLassieTime, who had yet other personas who edited a lot of articles on 1960s topics, a few on 60s music, and that user had different sock accounts to separate subject areas. Montanabw^(talk) 17:39, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that anyone who claims to be a teenager and who likes 60s music is a sock? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:56, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• Finally, even if RO and Wysong are not the same person, in the discussions of other issues, I noted that Wysong sent email to User:Coffee the very day that RO was blocked, and the discussion at the Duck box where Wysong claimed I "outed" her (which I did not) promptly resulted in RO making posts on her talk page on the topic. Thus, [[WP:MEATPUPPET}} or WP:TAGTEAM may be applicable. Montanabw^(talk) 17:39, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I did email Coffee, because of my prior experience with being blocked without any due process (see the prior section). I knew that Montanabw suspected me of being RationalObserver's sock, and did not want to be blocked again, so I emailed him and requested that if such an accusation was made, to please require the accuser to file an SPI. If anyone would like to see that email, email me, and I will forward it back.Lynn Wysong (talk) 17:52, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• At any rate, there have been problematic behaviors by these two users that others can look at. This is all I have time for now. I will answer any admin questions further this evening. Montanabw^(talk) 17:39, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Isn't it an important fact that there was a SPI back in February that said that there was not enough evidence to prove a connection between RO and ItsLassieTime? It begins to look like you are sock hunting and once you view an editor as a sock, you will build evidence to prove it true even when they are cleared by a SPI.

I agree that editors who are socking need to get bounced from the project but it's also important when, proven wrong, to let it go and stop trying to prove that they are guilty. That can eventually bring on charges of harassment or stalking. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:48, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

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Larry Silverstein page antisemetism

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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Silverstein

Need to remove and block the author of this!!

<redacted>

 Done. Thank you for reporting. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:20, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

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Block evasion

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User:Tex Mex Jack Jones is currently blocked indefinitely but another account has now been created under User:Jack Tex Mex Jones. STSC (talk) 17:04, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Tex Mex Jack Jones JoeSperrazza (talk) 17:38, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

How do you know? 172.56.23.118 (talk) 19:27, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm assuming you forgot to include the ""?... --IJBall (talk) 20:12, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Action has been taken as User:Jack Tex Mex Jones is now blocked; could a third party please close this discussion. STSC (talk) 02:19, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

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Edits to Pass Christian, Mississippi

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User:Leonardo Escarosa has been making extensive edits to Pass Christian, Mississippi. Two editors, myself and User:John from Idegon, have asked that he use edit summaries, as well as other requests to improve his good-faith edits. My requests here, here, and here were deleted, and 2 of them were replaced with a smarmy response. John from Idegon tried here. Because there are so many edits, it's difficult to keep up with the changes without edit summaries. Other problems which would be easy to avoid (eg. replacing metric conversion units with text) are continuing, and I am reluctant at this point to discuss this on his talk page, knowing he has no interest in the advise of other editors. Thanks for your help. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:27, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• Blocked for 72 hours. Swarm ^{we ♥ our hive} 22:37, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

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78.167.175.123

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An unsigned IP is randomly vandalising lots of articles as we speak. Please, could you advise on how to deal with this. See here --92slim (talk) 22:40, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Thrown to WP:AIV as response tends to be a bit quicker for this type of thing. Amortias (T)(C) 22:50, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

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someone or group trying to sabotage computers using wikipedia

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I am not a computer savvy person,but need to make wikipedia aware of a bug or virus that has attached to my home computer and advising me that if I don't pay $500 USD by the 19th of April then everything on my computer will be lost. It mentions encryption keys using RSA-2048 and can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA (cryptosystem) and if I pay a specific web site they will restore my files. Like ransom. I think this is my personal page where my info is stored for ransom (website redacted). Is Wikipedia in the business of sabotaging computers now? Please help. Thanks, Debbie (last name and phone number redacted)

. Please help — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.196.226.239 (talk • contribs) 01:07, 13 April 2015‎

This has nothing to do with wikipedia, someone hacked your computer. You need to contact your local authorities, not Wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:17, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I have also redacted the link to the "ransom page" since that itself might be a trap. bd2412 T 01:22, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! I never click on links like that anyways but its for the best, I recommend a close as I don't know what admin action can be taken here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:25, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

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Come to think of it, this could be a good way to obviate all those annoying Wikipedia contribution appeals. EEng (talk) 03:52, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Long term vandalism of Utica, New York and related articles

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For years, dynamic IP addresses, likely from cell towers, have been adding content akin to Wikipedia:SOAPBOX and treating Utica, New York, its talk page, and related articles as Wikipedia:FORUMs and have had the freedom to hinder progress on these articles, with good intermediate edits being reverted in the process of reverting many bad edits. Some have attacked me in the process when warning them; one even morphed words on a talk page, although after reading the previous edit, both edits were unwarranted. It's really become a battleground in some respects, and I feel this edit, which targeted a former admin, is the last straw. They vandalize in a distinct manner from other vandals, as compared with this diff. These IPs could be one or many persons, and I can provide diffs of incidents. Below, a list of the notable IPs as of mid-2014 known to engage in the vandalism are listed, however I should mention there are some IPs such as this one that edit in a similar fashion as the ones below but may have been the same user on a different cell tower or simply sockpuppets:

• User talk:166.194.31.36
• User talk:67.241.18.144
• User talk:67.246.75.145 - Blocked twice
• User talk:166.195.222.168
• User talk:216.171.185.75
• User talk:166.199.131.131
• User talk:166.199.247.240
• User talk:166.199.10.165
• User talk:CutThruTheNoise

If you look at the edit summaries of some of these IPs, you can easily see how they push a similar agenda of removing content or violating WP:POV.

Ironically in the mess, local college students who edited the Utica article in a short span of time for a research project were reverted by mistake.

I am not very versed in AIN or blocks, so I am not sure if I am reporting this issue correctly. It's also difficult for me to compile all of the information needed to prevent these issues in the future as I've addressed them multiple times. Am I overreacting? I'm not sure, but something told me further action needed to be taken, especially with pending change protection expiring on the Utica article shortly. What I do know is that the vandalism and negligible edits will saturate these articles with junk unless some action is taken. These problems are not issues that can be handled adequately at AIV in my view due to the complexity of the edits and persistence of the editors. Buffaboy ^talk 01:30, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• Page protection increased to semi and extended for 3 months. Talk page semi-protected for one week. A few blocks handed out as well. You said some college students were editing this article for school, so I went ahead and manually confirmed the non-autoconfirmed users who have been editing the page recently. Any others can request confirmation at Permissions if needed. Not sure what additional action should be taken, if any, but let me know if I missed anything. Swarm ^{we ♥ our hive} 01:50, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Question Is a range block feasible to hamper editing of related articles? If not, their efforts are still likely stymied as a result of the blocks. Buffaboy ^talk 02:27, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to Swarm for the swift action, and kudos to Buffaboy for a very complete filing. John from Idegon (talk) 02:32, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I basically know nothing whatsoever about range blocks so I'm not sure whether that's a feasible option. Swarm ^{we ♥ our hive} 04:34, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

166.199.131.131, 166.199.247.240, and 166.199.10.165 are all from the same range, but none of them have edited for a month -- Diannaa (talk) 04:58, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, props to Buffaboy for a good filing. I've been following this also. Buffboy is doing a good job in trying circumstances. Right, this edit where the person avows that, in revenge for not being able to screw with the Utica article, he's making subtle date changes and so forth in hundreds of articles, is annoying. Since this person 1) hates the city of Utica for some reason and 2) is insane (I guess) and 3) has been at this for a long time and isn't inclined to stop, it's an annoying situation. I think the article needs to be put on pending changes status, probably for good. Don't know what to say about stopping the person from random vandalism on other articles. Herostratus (talk) 11:53, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

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Instructor requesting undeletion of student sandbox

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Resolved

Can someone undelete User:Eodwlsl92/sandbox? He is a student in my class, and I can't even tell him why it was deleted because, well, it's gone. I am reasonably sure I saw at least some edits he made during class a week ago and I don't think they were copyvio or anything like that. Would appreciate speedy undeletion, hopefully during the next few minutes as I am reviewing those students early contributions. PS. The student is part of the Wikipedia editing club at Education Program:Hanyang University I am creating, I haven't yet created a page for them to enroll; I will do so soon. PPS. Since when do we delete sandboxes? Aren't they supposed to be safe places for people to experiment? Delete a sandbox and template a newbie, what a great way to encourage new editors to join in... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:33, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Done. -- Diannaa (talk) 04:29, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

It was mistaken for a promotional article in the making. Our apologies. Swarm ^{we ♥ our hive} 04:31, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

@Diannaa and Swarm: Thanks; I guess someone was too jumpy on the spam patrol and someone misclicked on the delete button (mistakes happen to everyone, even with double checking like here). The sandbox consists of nothing but newbie learning: copy of lead from one of our articles, external link to the university homepage, and some test images/tables. What could be constituted here as "a promotional article in the making", I am hard pressed to finds. I hope that the two people who misclicked here will pay a bit more attention in the future (no harm done, and I know how tedious such cleanup can be...). Cheers, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:22, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

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Misuse of talk page while blocked

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Rbholle (talk · contribs) is continuing to post a copyright violation on his talk page after being blocked for posting it elsewhere. Could someone remove talk page access please? The blocking admin has posted a wikibreak notice. -- John of Reading (talk) 06:58, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

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Chrisdecorte

Since his arrival here in 2013, Chrisdecorte (talk · contribs) has been using Wikipedia almost exclusively to promote his own self-published work in mathematics. (Some of many examples: [213] [214] [215] [216] [217] [218] [219] [220] [221], plus dozens of edits in his own userspace.) Today he's using Talk:RSA Factoring Challenge to solicit money for his mathematical hobby [222].

Since 2013, three different users (including myself) have explained to him four times that Wikipedia is meant to be an encyclopedia, not a forum for publishing or discussing original research, and we have asked him to stop his self-promotion ([223] [224] [225] [226]). He has never responded.

Chris is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia and I suggest his editing privileges be removed until he agrees to stop promoting himself. —Psychonaut (talk) 09:26, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) To date, this user has made three (3) contributions in article main-space, two of which promote his own work and the other is trivial. I tend to agree with the nominator. WP:NOTHERE. Kleuske (talk) 10:25, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Pinging David Eppstein who's probably in a good position to keep an eye out should this person reemerge in some other guise. EEng (talk) 17:13, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi! I agree, NOTHERE, should be blocked. But at least he's mostly keeping his original research out of article space, I guess? —David Eppstein (talk) 17:23, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

(Invited by Psychonaut) I haven't researched his edits since I interacted with him (whenever that was), but I still don't see any which are not promoting use of his own unpublished research. At least he's staying out of article-space, for the most part. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:41, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

This thread got archived despite unanimous agreement that this user is being disruptive, and no opposition to three users' agreement that he be blocked. Could an admin please take action? —Psychonaut (talk) 08:06, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• The latest at User talk:Chrisdecorte#Sorry suggests he's done, so I see no need for a block unless he starts again. Perhaps just a reminder of WP:OR and a warning to stop trying to promote his own work? Squinge (talk) 08:52, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I've left him a friendly explanation. Squinge (talk) 08:59, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I should add that I see people have approached him on his Talk page before without success, but this time he did actually respond to the ANI notification. Squinge (talk) 09:37, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

IP editor 87.81.147.76 refusing to accept consensus

87.81.147.76 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has repeatedly re-inserted material against the conclusion of an RFC in which he participated relating to an illustration of Mohammed at Islamic Calendar. RFC concluded;

The consensus is to keep the image at this time. The picture is well-sourced, per the discussion, and illustrates a salient point of the section.
— [[User: HiDrNick!]] 20:53, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

The editor has amended the caption of that image at least 8 times since the RFC closed. 10:50, 21 March 2015, 16:58, 22 March 2015, 11:54 23 March 2015, 16:43, 23 March 2015, 10:07, 9 April 2015, 14:53, 9 April 2015, 10:47, 13 April 2015 , 10:58, 13 April 2015

The user is also agressive and borders on personal attacks on the talk page; Last paragraph Last paragraph - Aspersions based on other pages edited

They have repeatedly taken this discussion to other venues such as the ANI thread on phantom consensus[227],[228],[229],[230],[231] and a discussion of general sanction templates[232],[233] on my talk page.

Can an Admin make them go away. SPACKlick (talk) 11:49, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

[234] Is now hounding me at an ArbCom request thread. I believe they've done similar to @NeilN: but I'll leave it to him to ring that up if he feels it necessary.SPACKlick (talk) 11:51, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree with SPACKlick. It was one thing when the IP confined themselves to Talk:Islamic calendar but now they've taken to derailing unrelated conversations, often with blatant misrepresentations and attacks, as shown by the diffs above. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 12:53, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

MarioMarco2009

MarioMarco2009 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a disruptive WP:SPA. A review of contributions shows nothing other than promoting homeopathy at the article's Talk page, where the usual WP:IDHT is in evidence. I think a topic ban is warranted, or possibly simply show him the door. The frustration engendered among good faith contributors by his obduracy is not pretty to watch. A vote of thanks on his talk page from Dana "Mr Uncredible" Ullman is probably all you need to know about this editor. Guy (Help!) 13:16, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Maybe 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th of a topic ban will be effective in this case. EEng (talk) 13:36, 13 April 2015 (UTC)