Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Large number of potentially incorrect edits

The problem has been described at the Teahouse questions forum by Aloha27 as follows:

"There currently is a stub article [General Service Area] which is wikilinked to by every town, village and community in Nova Scotia, Canada. One editor in particular has taken it upon his/her self to change over 1600 articles to use this obscure stub as the definition for each and every community in this Province rather than the usual wikilinks (town, village, community etc.) used by the rest of Wikipedia. Seeing as how NS is apparently the only region in the world that uses this definition and the definition could be eliminated at any time by the stroke of a pen by the NS Government, I would wonder if the project would be better served if we simply deleted this article under WP:N as a Google search using the phrase gives few (if any) reliable sources?"

This made me look at the contributions record of Moka Mo to confirm a large number of edits have been made, many of which add this link.

I checked their talk page to see a notice at User_talk:Moka_Mo#May_2015 by Cmr08 requesting that they enter into discussion.

The reason I am bringing this here is because admins have tools to perform any necessary mass roll backs of edits by an editor that are proven to be incorrect. I am making no judgement on the correctness or otherwise of the edits. This is to alert wiser heads than mine to a potential problem. I do not see this as a content dispute, more as something that will require some poor admin to pick up the baton and undo a large swathe of changes. I am about to notify the editor in question on their talk page. I will also notify the other editors I have mentioned in order that they may make a decision about participating in this discussion. For clarity, I am uninvolved in and have no interest in the articles concerned. I doubt I have ever edited in that arena. Fiddle Faddle 10:39, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the stub article above, and don't really care if it's used or not, or even if it's removed. The concern I had was that a large number of Nova Scotia articles were being changed to say they are regions and not communities but the editor making the changes was providing no reason for the change. After editor made these changes a second time, I left the talk page message hoping that the editor would prevent this from getting out of hand by explaining why the change was being made. By providing no explaination, I felt the editor was insisting on making the changes regardless of what other editors were saying. Had only the stub article been removed, I wouldn't have even bothered, it was labeling the communities as regions with no proof that bothered me. I didn't think asking an editor to explain changes would lead here, but I am more than willing to retract the statement if it would prevent this from going any further. Cmr08 (talk) 02:20, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

To clear up some confusion above, Moka Mo doesn't appear to be the editor adding the link to the stub article as was stated in the notice above. A check of history shows that 19960401 is the editor who added the link to a large number of articles. Moka Mo had only made a couple of edits total to Nova Scotia articles until a few days ago. That being said, I still have no opinion on the stub article, but thought the info should be clarified. The only additions of the article by Moka Mo appear to be a couple of articles where he/she re-added it after removing it in an earlier edit. Cmr08 (talk) 03:33, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

My apologies to Moka Mo whose opinion here is valuable in any case. I Must have picked up the sole edits where this was the case. I shall notify 19960401 on their talk page of this discussion. Fiddle Faddle 06:25, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

It's not hard to make mistakes, especially with a lot of confusing edits going back and forth. I only picked up on it when I went back a second time to re-read this. At first I actually thought this was over the message I left him on talk page, I now see it has nothing really to do with it. Cmr08 (talk) 07:53, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty to adjust the title of this thread as it is obvious that it isn't Moka Mo who has made the edits in question. Blackmane (talk) 02:59, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

• Although there is a 1-in-365.24 chance that it is a coincidence, I point out that 19960401 is a date code for April Fool's Day, 1996. Carrite (talk) 15:57, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Based on this edit by the editor in question, it looks like a coincidence. Seems it has something to do with Halifax Nova Scotia's boundaries changing on that date. However, i'll take your 1-in-365.24 odds that the similarity with User:20060706 is a coincidence. See also WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Matthvm/Archive. Mojoworker (talk) 19:36, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Also, regardless of whether or not these edits are being performed by a sock of an indeffed editor, according to the stub article in question, the GSA is a very narrowly defined term relating to E911 services. The first ref is to a pilot project final report and its recommendation: "In place of the E-911 reference to "community" it is recommended, for at least the purpose of the NSCAF initiative, that the areas be renamed as General Service Areas (GSA)." I've only glanced at the refs, but was the recommendation of the pilot program even adopted? Anyway, based on the narrow definition of community in the sense of E911 services, unless someone can show otherwise, it seems that these mass replacements are improper and should be reverted. Mojoworker (talk) 19:56, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

User:19960401 (along with several other accounts) has been blocked as a sockpuppet of Matthvm. So, at least, the disruption should cease while this issue gets resolved here. Mojoworker (talk) 19:54, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Request confirmation of WP:ANI statement by TParis

Administrator TParis, closing a WP:ANI incident last year related to calling a BLP subject a "denier" or "skeptic", said:

Use what the sources say. If the majority of sources call a subject a "skeptic" then they are a skeptic. If the sources calls them a "climate change denier" then call them that. We use what the majority of sources use. Single partisan sources that are used in opposition to the majority of sources will be considered POV pushing and sanctioned under WP:ARBCC. Mass changes of any material without discussion is disruptive.--v/r - TP 23:01, 3 January 2014

TParis has retired so we cannot turn to him for confirmation or retraction. The issue has resurfaced for another BLP subject, Anthony Watts (blogger). TParis's instructions have been questioned, for example on the talk page. The majority of recent editors of the article are upholding a quote of "denial" in the lead (for example here referring to Watts's blog), and some editors are insisting on keeping sentences containing "skeptic*" in the body (for example here). Currently we know of more "skeptic" than "denier" sources but that could change. I am asking for a statement now equal to "TParis was right" and the statement was meant to apply to BLPs where future skeptic-versus-denier fights arise. I will put a note that I have asked for confirmation, on the article's talk page. Peter Gulutzan (talk)

Watts is a very prominent source of climate denial propaganda, he is associated with the engine of climate denial, the Heartland Institute. There is a great deal of motivated reasoning on that talk page, all of which boils down to people trying to neuter the fact that climate denialism is bullshit and Watts' blog is probably the most visited source of climate denialist talking points.

For the avoidance of doubt: TParis was right. This is not remotely controversial as a statement of policy. Guy (Help!) 15:38, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

He's a skeptic. "Denial" is a smear term (calculated to bring up equivalence to Holocaust-denial). It is dishearening to see pretenses to neutrality so cavalierly thrown over the side. Pax 19:09, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

No, he's not a skeptic, any more than the Australian Vaccine Skeptics Network are skeptics. He is not skeptical about material that supports his agenda, and he is engaged in a peudoscientific attempt to prove a pre-defined conclusion. At best this is peudoskepticism, but in fact his activities are part of the cottage industry of climate change denialism.

Meryl Dorey is not a vaccine skeptic, she is a vaccine denier. Vincent Reynouard is not a holocaust skeptic, he is a holocaust denier. Anthony Watts is not a climate change skeptic, he is a climate change denier. The fact that sources historically permitted the self-applied label "skeptic" does not change this.

As Christoff noted: "Almost two decades after the issue became one of global concern, the 'big' debate over climate change is over. There are now no credible scientific skeptics challenging the underlying scientific theory, or the broad projections, of climate change." Guy (Help!) 08:28, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

@Peter Gulutzan: Whether he is retired or not, TParis should have been notified about this thread, so I have done so. As it turns out, he has been around a bit since his retirement. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 16:13, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

• TParis might not be around any more (alas), but WP:V and WP:NPOV haven't much changed in the meantime. It seems tendentious to pretend that this article's wording was the result of one admin's whim rather than core wikipedia policy. bobrayner (talk) 20:10, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
• Watt's is a classic climate change denier, i.e. http://grist.org/article/2011-03-30-wattsupwiththat-attack-on-berkeley-temperature-findings-was/ More on the topic see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial prokaryotes (talk) 20:40, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
• This looks like a content dispute. It would be better resolved at WP:BLPN. ANI is not the place to hold a vote on whether someone is skeptic or denier. If someone is editing disruptively or hurling personal attacks, then it would become a matter for ANI. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:57, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

• For what it's worth, though TParis is disillusioned with Wikipedia at the moment, the editor is still paying attention. I had a nice chat with TP on their talk page just a couple of days ago. Friendly words might help motivate them to return. Just a hint. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:18, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
• This thread is not about the content dispute. It is about whether TParis was right to say that such a dispute should be settled by counting the sources, and TParis said it on WP:ANI. It was brought up on WP:BLPN long ago and went nowhere. Actually I believe edit war is happening (a sign is that the article's revision history for the last month has "rv" or "Revert*" or "Undid" in 68 edit summaries), but maybe some editors will be pacified if it's stated firmly whether the majority of sources matters. I'm reading in: reliable sources that wouldn't violate wp:blp. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:41, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

As you mention, it went "nowhere" at BLP/N, because consensus is against you, and only activist editors support the BLP claim. You forgot to mention the there was (still open) a related thread at the FRINGE noticeboard as well, and that the attempts to appeal to WP:WTW has not worked, and has resulted in a move to rewrite the Guideline.

That would seem to raise the question of WP:FORUMSHOPPING, because the opinion an admin stated in a previous close is not a legal precedent, for starters, so maybe this is also a bit of [[WP:WL|lawyering], too.

Accordingly, if anything, a BOOMERANG would be in order here, but it bears mentioning that the fact that some editors think you are flirting with AE has already been raised, on your talk page as well, I believe.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 14:59, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Ubikwit is wrong about wp:blpn (there was no consensus), half-right about wp:ae (I was threatened but the canvassing against me went nowhere), wrong about wp:forumshopping (if it were true then everybody who goes to wp:ani would be guilty). Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:02, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

This is not the place to settle a content dispute, which should be done by going through dispute resolution. It's one thing for someone to be blatantly violating BLP, but in this case it's a difference of opinion between calling him "skeptic" and "denier." I would vote "denier," as that is clear from the sources. But administrators don't run one-person tribunals adjudicating such disputes, so it doesn't matter if the admin in question is here or not. They are not super-users with superior powers of judgment. Sometimes quite the opposite is the case. Coretheapple (talk) 19:01, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

When an admin closes an AN/I thread, s/he does not create some kind of binding principle. Cardamon (talk) 09:12, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. S/he may, however, articulate a settled consensus interpretation of policy, as TParis did here. Guy (Help!) 09:41, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

As may any editor. Admins don't have any special role in terms of deciding what is the proper way to apply policy. Coretheapple (talk) 15:20, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Right, but my own opinion is that we should have firm policy against that sort of descriptor in the infobox of lead sentence. Even if the person calls himself such, it shouldn't be in the first sentence. That we permit otherwise is in my opinion of perversion of the policy of WP:NPOV, and the two supporting guidelines on WP:OR and WP:SYN. We'll still have to argue about how to say it, but it won't have the same focus. DGG ( talk ) 02:25, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

The proposed use of "skeptic" is a case of quote mining, neglecting the context.

The first sentence of the lead of the Wikpedia article on climate change denial reads (underlining added)

Climate change denial is a denial or dismissal of the scientific consensus on the extent of global warming, its significance, or its connection to human behavior, especially for commercial or ideological reasons.

The second sentence of the Watts BLP reads

He operates Watts Up With That?, a weather and climate change blog that focuses on the global warming controversy and his opinion that the human role in global warming is insignificant.

This sentence has a citation with the quote, "One of the highest trafficked climate blogs is wattsupwiththat.com, a website that publishes climate misinformation on a daily basis".

The Wikipedia article on environmental skepticism clearly distinguishing it as not being scientific skepticism, and there are other sources for that. Non-specialist mass media cites that use "skeptic" are not as reliable as a notable climatologist published in book for by an academic press.

Mann's opinion represents the scientific consensus on Watt's blog, as he appears to be the only RS scientist bothering to publish a comment; there isn't any SYNTH or OR involved in citing his statement in the lead as representative of the mainstream view. The only point of contention is whether or not Mann's view is the mainstream view.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 09:50, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• In most cases we should refrain from descriptive hotbutton terms unless virtually all sources use such a descriptor and then we must attribute it exhaustively. I would prefer that in the case of Watts, we not follow the lead of news sources and instead say that he (his blog) disagrees with or contests the scientific consensus on climate change.--MONGO 12:44, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I endorse completely what MONGO said above, and I meant to include this point in my comment. Cherry-picky descriptors of this sort is very common, and illegitimate. For anyone sufficiently controversial, you can pretty much find a short quotation or phrase that says almost anything. It's another reason for graat caution and for avoiding such characterizing phrases. Complex positions on issues cannot be fairly reduced to one word, and anyone who tries -- however good their intentions -- is likely to be inaccurate. As for the question in the headline here, if the quote given is representative, then I (and MoNGO) would definitely not endorse the 4th sentence of what TParis said as being proper NPOV policy. DGG ( talk ) 03:11, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• MONGO is correct. "Denier" is a known pejorative with no other purpose than to link him to holocaust denial. We have an alternative term that is widely used in sources called "skeptic" which avoids the BLP violation of linking Watts to the Holocaust (any link, no matter how slight is unacceptable). --DHeyward (talk) 06:46, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Would wish to clarify that my amateur opinion of the blog whatsupwiththat is that it has presented inaccurate data to support the premise that the scientific consensus on climate change is not fully accurate. I do not think that that blog is always wrong as some information posted there is accurate, but not enough that it could be used ever as a source to discredit the scientific consensus. Even given that, the bottom line is that in a BIO and especially a BLP, hotbutton descriptors are not needed to convey the appropriate message that the blog is not a reliable source, regardless of what other sources say about that blog or the blogger himself.--MONGO 13:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

DHeyward It is patently false that editors characterizing Watts' blog as a "climate change denialism" blog are trying to "link him to holocaust denial". WP:NPA

Making recourse to "holocaust denial" in this context is WP:OR, at best, as not a single RS that characterizes him as a "(climate change) denier" engaged in "(climate change) denialism", or running a "(climate change) denialst blog", etc., does so. --Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 15:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

The point is the use of the term is not needed to convey the knowledge needed to have an informed opinion on the blog.--MONGO 21:19, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Ubikwit, I am quite willing to AGF that you are unaware of the connection that is made between the two. Now that you are aware, however, it is with complete disregard to BLP to continue endorsing "denier." It is well established that there is intent to link the two whether or not that is your intent. "Skeptic" is just as valid a description as "denier." After being told that it is offensive to both climate change sceptics and Holocaust survivors to use that term, you should stop. It's like using the term "National Socialist" to describe a political position. No matter how strong your case is that the two words are accurate, it will never escape the stigma and will never pass the BLP test unless they self describe as that. Sorry, but that's reality. Please stop calling living people "deniers" now that you are aware of its pejorative context. And here's just one of many sources [1]. --DHeyward (talk) 23:17, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

What's the name for this rhetorical maneuver? Not Godwin's Law, but the assertion that if your opponent uses a particular word, *they* will violate Godwin's Law, so they'd better stop? Whatever it's called, it's stupid. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:17, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

It is Godwin's law and the people that started using "denier" lost when they invoked holocaust language to describe their political opponents. That's how stupid it is. There is no doubt where "denier" began and what its purpose was. Why cling to the word if it didn't bring such visceral emotions? This tactic is common in politics, not so common in pure science and academia unless they are politicized. At least in the last Arbcom when editors used the word "septic" instead of "sceptic" we didn't have ideologues trying to feed us a shit sandwich as if it were chocolate cake. It's a shit sandwich. --DHeyward (talk) 07:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

That is nothing but rhetorical bluster, and it seems that you have some irrational bias against the common terms "climate change denier"170,000 hits and "climate denier"133,000 hits.

The scatological rhetoric in your post borders on a personal attack. It definitely is a personal attack to call editors ideologues that are using reliable sources or invoke "holocaust denial" against them; furthermore, consensus is clearly against you and others railing against Mann's and others' characterization of Watts and his blog.

If you have an irrational bias against the terms "denier", "denialism", etc., which are applied by WP:RS to Watts and his blog as cited in the article and available for the counting on the Talk page, perhaps you should read Any external relationship – personal, religious, political, academic, financial, and legal – can trigger a conflict of interest.

As I said above, it seems that the only issue is whether Mann's (and the others') characterization is the mainstream view; i.e., an NPOV issue. That makes it a content dispute, and WP:CONSENSUS is against you, I repeat.
--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 16:03, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

References

No, I think this is a case where consensus in support of "denier" cannot be reached, with a plausible argument identifying it as a BLP violation (due to the similiarity with "Holocaust denier"). "Denier" is unnecessarily inflammatory, the term "skeptic" is more neutral and, in the absence of exhaustive proof demonstrating that a clear majority of RS describes him as a "denier," Watts should be described as a "skeptic." Feel free to invest the next three days posting that exhaustive proof, or accept the word "skeptic." Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 17:10, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

So, consider this quote from a 2010 article in Nature Medicine, by Megan Scudellari [2]: "in the public sphere, a different type of dissension is spreading through media outlets and online in an unprecedented way--one that challenges basic concepts held as undeniable truths by most researchers. 'Science denialism' is the rejection of the scientific consensus, often in favor of a radical and controversial point of view." I read this and think that the term "denialism" stems from the idea that "undeniable truths" are being challenged--some examples of denialism from this article are the idea that vaccines cause autism and that HIV doesn't cause AIDS. According to DHeyward's argument above, though, Scudellari's actual motive is to associate these ideas with Holocaust denial through the use of hotbutton language! How dare Nature Medicine and publishers such as Routledge, Oxford University Press, and Springer (see Ubikwit's list of sources above) spread such calumny? --Akhilleus (talk) 18:29, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

IBAN violation by Catflap08

NOTE that this thread was copied from AN as this seems to be the more appropriate place. JZCL 07:44, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Catflap08 (talk · contribs) and I were made subject to an IBAN a few weeks ago. Last week, Catflap08 showed up suddenly in a discussion I had initiated, and commented on some of my edits; I reported this, but it was borderline and there was no result.

A few weeks before the ban, I had removed some references from the Kokuchūkai article that didn't back up the statements that were sourced to them, and I also (a little before the IBAN) removed an inappropriate primary source and the claim that was referenced to it.[3][4] Catflap08 the other day manually reverted these edits. If suddenly showing up and commenting on an edit I made (he did that again too, BTW) is not a violation, then surely reverting my edits is? He also admitted both then and now on the talk page that the refs he re-added are unrelated to the article content, so please don't respond by saying that even though it does violate the IBAN it's a harmless improvement to the article.

Sturmgewehr88 (talk · contribs) reverted the edits as an IBAN violation that was also in violation of NOR and V, Catflap08 re-reverted, while copy-pasting text that I had previously removed and attaching a source I added to the article that (1) he clearly hasn't read and (2) doesn't back up the claim.

Could someone please tell him that he is not allowed revert my edits under the terms of the IBAN?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:08, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

He also stated on the talk page before the IBAN that he was aware of my edits and was opposed to them, meaning he waited until the IBAN was in place to revert me. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:38, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

He has since copy-pasted the article (Including signed comments by me) into his userspace and started drafting further additions and subtractions to make the page look more like it did before I edited it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:54, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Catflap is continuing to devote his on-wiki activity exclusively to undoing my work on the Kokuchukai article, including large chunks of text either not relevant to the subject or not directly supported by the sources. He has also altered a sourced statement to say something that the source doesn't say, apparently solely in order to fan the flames (the point is one he argued with me for months, ultimately leading to the IBAN). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:55, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

So, if you add or removed anything, ever, to the article, at any time, you think its a violation of the IBAN to have it undone? Even weeks or months later? AlbinoFerret 14:32, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

He expressed opposition to my edits, waited until an IBAN was in place so that I couldn't effectively defend them, knowingly reverted these edits, and continued to do so even after told to stop. How is this remotely appropriate? Am I allowed go around reverting his edits as well? or is there a time limit, and I'm allowed go around reverting his edits as long as they were made more than a month ago? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:47, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I think that an admin needs to clarify about the time. You might also seek clarification from the admin that enacted the IBAN. AlbinoFerret 18:17, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

When the violation took place I went straight to the enacting admin, and was told he didn't want to deal with it, so I should go to AN -- I got no response whatsoever on AN, so the thread was moved here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:18, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

• WP:IBAN states "if editor X is banned from interacting with editor Y, editor X is not permitted to ... undo editor Y's edits to any page (whether by use of the revert function or by other means)". It makes no mention of time frames. So AFAICS Catflap08's reverts are indeed in violation of the IBAN. I'd welcome more input by other uninvolved administrators. Black Kite (talk) 21:24, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

• I had always understood it to refer to reverting edits made after the institution of the IBan. If not, then on any article whatsoever, each party would have to research to find out if the other party had ever edited there, then read all of the edits they made to see what material changed, then find out if any intervening changes to the material were made by any other editors, and only then, once all those hurdles had been cleared, could the first party alter the material. I think that's extremely unreasonable, and much too broad a reading of the intent of the IBan. BMK (talk) 22:51, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

@BMK: It's pretty hard to revert a particular user's edits without knowing who that user is. You are referring to accidental good-faith new edits to the article, not reversions. The problem here is that I made specific edits to the article before the IBAN (not long before, mind you) and now Catflap is directly reverting those edits. And it's all academic, since Catflap directly stated that he knew which edits were mine, and continued reverting after being told that his edits were reverts of mine. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:14, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

The statement " Catflap directly stated that he knew which edits were mine" and the diff do not match. There is no admitting that he know what edits are yours, the diff says they dont want to discuss your edits or statements because they are problematic. That is not the same, its a generalized statement. I also agree with BMK that researching every edit in the past is unreasonable, even new edits after a week to a month depending on how active the article is. After say 50 to 100 edits or so unless you have one hell of a memory its going to take a lot of research.AlbinoFerret 03:20, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

He stated that he had looked at the edits and considered them problematic -- how on earth could have done this without also knowing the edits were mine? He even called them "Hijiri`s ... edits"! Also, given that in the last sixteen months the only two users who have substantially edited the article are Catflap08 and myself, and the fact that the conflict on that article (and over whether the Miyazawa Kenji article should call him a nationalist) was a major reason contributing to the original call for an IBAN, your "50 to 100 edits or so" comment is pretty irrelevant. Also, how do you explain his joining in a discussion I started, a discussion of an edit I made? And the fact that he mostly stopped editing while the last AN thread on his IBAN violations was open, waited until it was archived without result, and when he came back he immediately started reverting me again? It's inconceivable that all of these were just good-faith mistakes. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:19, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Here is the statement he made " I`d rather not comment too much on Hijiri`s comments or edits as I personally find them to be problematic." Nowhere in there is a statement about specific edits. As to your thoughts on the 50 to 100 edits, you do realize that if there is no limit in the past, that you are going to have to look at every edit ever made before changing anything to make sure your edit does not revert something he did right? So if he changed a few words here or there, your going to have to check if a word you want change was changed by him in the entire history of the article. AlbinoFerret 12:19, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

He was answering another user's (User:Snow Rise's) query about the specific edits he would later revert. He referred to these as "Hijiri's edits". What is the question here? Additionally, Catflap does not need to go back and look at every single edit to know that the edit he is specifically going out of his way to revert is mine. I do not need to be concerned about being accused of violating the IBAN in the same way because (as much as it would benefit the project as a whole) I am not interested in going around tracking down Catflap's old edits and reverting them. And in this case the edits aren't even that old! Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:00, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Umm... hello? Feels like I'm shouting into an echo chamber here. User:Sturmgewehr88 pointed out to Catflap on the article talk page that his edits constitute IBAN violations and User:Black Kite agreed but asked for more objective input. So far the only two other users who have weighed in have either (a) apparently not recognized that Catflap went back through my edits to the article in order to revert specific portions of them and reinsert the exact text that was there previously (and therefore couldn't possibly have done so by accident) or (b) failed to recognize that Catflap specifically acknowledged that the edits he was reverting were made by me before he reverted them, and was also directly reminded that they were mine afterward, before re-reverting them (and therefore couldn't possibly have done so by accident).

Anyone else wanna weigh in? Maybe warn or block Catflap? Revert to the better version of the article before the IBAN-violating/OR-infested edits? If this thread gets archived with no result I'm just going to have to un-archive or reopen it, so...

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:56, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Non-admin comment Umm, no, you're not "going to have to" do anything of the sort. You have brought something here that you felt was an incident requiring community (in general) and administrator (in particular) attention. During the three days since there has been all sorts of activity on this board, so you can be sure that administrators and editors within the community have looked over your issue and have, fairly clearly, decided that currently it does not warrant their attention. You may not be happy with that decision by the community; it may be a poor outcome for you; it may even be a poor outcome for the community; none of those points, however, mean that you "have to un-archive or reopen it". That would, in mine opinion, be close to a disruptive action, ignoring the consensus that you don't agree with.

I suggest you scrupulously adhere to the IBAN, work with others in the community to improve the article and as many others of the two million (or whatever it is now that there are) that you feel like and wait. If this Catflap is as evil and Machiavellian as you seem to think, we'll discover it soon enough; if not, yay! Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 08:48, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

@User:LindsayH: Please read the note at the top: I did not post anything here three days ago. I posted this thread on the much less active WP:AN (on the specific advice of an admin). In several days of the thread being open there was not a single response (presumably because that page is not as active as this one); I posted more as Catflap continued violating the IBAN again and again. After several days, confused, I asked what had happened and if I had misplaced the thread, and apparently I had. Another user moved it here for me, but I suspect that by then it had already passed the IDHT threshold. That, presumably, is what confused both BMK and AlbinoFerret, and AlbinoFerret's further questioning and my answering pushed this thread even further into IDHT territory. So far one admin has unambiguously stated that they believe the IBAN was violated and some others have found holes in my complaint that I have readily filled for them. Prematurely-archived threads do not count as "consensus to do nothing", and de-archiving or reopening them is quite common practice. Last time I had an IBAN discussion about 20 people agreed the other user had violated it and deserved to be further-sanctioned (and my IBAN should be lifted); the thread was prematurely archived, so I posted on the talk page of one of the admins who had posted and they de-archived it for me.

I would be happy to continue to comply by the mutual IBAN -- I have been doing so for close to a month now. But by letting this direct reverting of my edits fly you are now telling me that you think the IBAN is not mutual, because Catflap08 is allowed directly revert my edits and I am apparently still not allowed revert his. It's not "Machiavellian", though -- Catflap has been quite flagrant about his reverting my edits, even continuing to do so after being told by a third party to stop. I suspect what happened was that two weeks into the IBAN he showed up and joined a talk page discussion I had started, and evaded sanctions for that, which emboldened him do go and directly revert my edits.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:52, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I don't believe I was "confused" about anything, as I read both AN and AN/I. BMK (talk) 15:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I can echo your post BMK, I am not confused and also watch AN/I and AN. AlbinoFerret 18:04, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh geez, who could have ever predicted this? I'll get to agreeing adamantly with those who have already responded here with regard to how inappropriately Hijiri approaches these situations and to detailing how the "boy who cried wolf" effect might explain, at least in part, why he is not getting the response he is seeking. But let's start by recognizing another fact: the reignition of this drama represents a failure on the part of those of us who took part in the last discussion. This IBAN was never going to work; both editors work in overlapping and fairly niche areas with little buffer between them and neither showed the least suggestion of backing down from any of the content disputes between them that were the proximal cause of the ANI discussion that lead to the IBAN. Add into that battleground attitudes and personalization (to some extent two way but increasingly represented by the inability of one party to just let things go) and its clear this approach was nothing a but guarantee to rubber-band this issue back at the noticeboards in short order. It's pretty silly to recommend as a resolution to an issue that the two incolved editors simply disengage from one-another when the matter in question was that they could not be disengaged. The truth is, after years of watching it in operation, I'm increasingly dubious that an IBAN ever does anything but prolong disruption connected to grudges between editors, but it certainly needs to stop being used in cases like this where the deeper issues are not addressed first.

Now, as to your complaints, Hijiri, I can form that what was suggested to you by others here is true with regard to at least one would-be contributor; I just couldn't see this thread or the matters you raised as urgent, or even necessarily and community oversight, being all to familiar with the context and particulars of your feud. I wouldn't be surprised if other editors saw the names involved and just skipped over it, and I certainly wouldn't blame them. As it happens, I saw both new threads well before you pinged me, and was about to reply several times before being distracted by other issues (on-wiki and off) that undeniably warranted the attention more. It's not the first time you've pinged me into this feud and it's surprising each time because I've been increasingly clear with each iteration of the battle that I view your behaviours to generally be more problematic and disruptive than those of Catflap, especially with regard to seeking out the fight, but at this point I take these actions as part and parcel of your WP:IDHT way of selectively reading what others have tried to tell you about this contest of wills. I've seen so much of it with regard to how your view (and represent) the comments of others who have tried to separate you two that when I see you say something like "Last time I had an IBAN discussion about 20 people agreed the other user had violated it and deserved to be further-sanctioned (and my IBAN should be lifted)" I don't for a second suspect that I am getting the full story there. Because I have seen you distort the positions of other commenting parties before (my own included) to suggest thorough support for yourself where it did not really exist or was limited to just a minor point. And for the record, I'm not even saying that you're lying; in most of these cases, you seem to genuinely believe the spin that you put on these events and the perspectives of those involved, which is part of what is making this ongoing battle such a particularly intractable mess.

Whether Catflap pushed the edges of the IBAN with any edit, I don't know, though I do know that the particular edits I looked at did not violate it outright. Contrary to your assumption, the IBAN does not guarantee that he can not edit that page in a direction that is contrary to your vision for it, nor is the reverse true. Otherwise IBANs could be gamed to try to force preferred version. All of which is exactly why this IBAN was such a foolish notion in this case, because clearly neither of you wanted to give way on this article and related content, so it was inevitable that you would be lobbing broadsides at eachother in one manner or another. For this reason I'm going to propose that the IBAN be dissolved, that we ask you two gentlemen one last time to try to find a reasonable compromise path forward and, if you fail and the issue becomes disruptive between the two of you, we look at which of the two of you is more deserving of a page or topic ban regarding this subject the two of you cannot let go. Whether or not I am successful in convincing others to follow that approach though, I highly recommend that you let this issue go for now, before you get smacked with the biggest WP:BOOMERANG this side of the Blue Mountains. Because the situation doesn't even warrant discussion of whether you or anyone thinks Catflap is Machiavellian; he wouldn't nearly need to be when all he has to do is what he's doing now -- hang back, say absolutely nothing and let you torpedo yourself. But look on the bright side here, you've got at least one detailed response now. Snow ^{let's rap} 04:28, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Okay, all but one user (the only admin, and the only one who didn't previously express support for Catflap's position, I might add) seems to here be ignoring the fact that I presented specific evidence that Catflap reverted my edits after explicitly acknowledging that they were my edits. It has nothing to do with "editing the article away from ny preferred vision". The fact that a single previous AN thread (not two) got archived with no result after one user agreed that Catflap had violated the IBAN and one disagreed is not evidence that I have been "crying wolf"; if anything, it is evidence that the latest, more serious violation should be taken more seriously. Why is Catflap allowed revert my edits but not I his? Can someone please explain to me how this IBAN is mutual if one of the parties is refusing to abide by it? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:06, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

An IBAN does not just mean that who ever got the last version in before it went into effect can therefore force their preferred version from that date forward. Even if that were the case, it's clear (as could be seen at the time) that neither of you were really going to back down on this issue. Those are two of several reasons why it was ill-advised to have instituted an IBAN without those issues first being resolved and it locked us with certainty into a new thread AN thread in short order. As to the "crying wolf" comment, you seem to have misread it -- I was referencing your past battleground behaviour in these matters as the reason why you were not getting the overwhelming flood of interest in this drama you clearly think it deserves. Despite the repeated direct efforts of (and warnings from) both an admin ([5][6]) and the community broadly about following Catflap from page to page looking to re-engage with him and other generally tendentious, combative, and disruptive behaviours, you persisted well past any sense -- and often while citing the "shared" perspectives of other editors who were themselves surprised to learn of their unwavering support for you. Frankly, you more than earned the block Silk Tork had implied was forthcoming if you didn't back off, and if it had been dolled out, likely we'd never have gotten as far as the poorly-considered IBAN.

Look, I'm not even sure how much I disagree with you that Catflap violated at least the spirit of the IBAN and should be called out for it. But these are your chickens come home to roost, my friend. You courted sanction and then only avoided a block for continuing down the path you were on (which you surely would have, as you always have on this issue and with regard to this "opponent") because we instead got steered into this IBAN which was certain to impose itself on the rest of us as soon as you two (inevitably) refused to edit in collaborative fashion on one of the issues neither of you can just let go of. And then you want to cry foul when enough editors don't flock to this nonsense and immediately agree that he should be blocked? Well, I can only say that I think you need to look at this situation again from the perspective of the community volunteers here and in the context of your past behaviour. Snow ^{let's rap} 09:58, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Umm... I don't think "an IBAN just means that who ever got the last version in before it went into effect can therefore force their preferred version from that date forward": I think that WP:IBAN means what it says, that Catflap08 is "not permitted to ... undo [my] edits to any page (whether by use of the revert function or by other means)". I provided clear and concise evidence that several of my edits (specifically, removing the Stone article as a reference for a piece of information she actually contradicts and stating in the text that Miyazawa Kenji rejected the group's nationalism) were directly undone by Catflap (here and here, respectively). The other edits are all problematic in their own ways, for reasons I painstakingly explained to Catflap on the talk page months ago, and completely undermine my earlier hard work on the article (hard work which you earlier praised and for which Catflap earlier expressed a dislike), but those problems are secondary to the direct reverts. So far every user who has checked these diffs has acknowledged that they are reverts and constitute an IBAN violation by Catflap. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:42, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Alright then. Catflap08, apparently you violated the iBan between you and Hijiri. Don't do it again. Drmies (talk) 15:37, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not going to go into this circular argument with you for a third time. Several community members here have already explained why the IBAN can't just be a rubber stamp on the last version of an article put forth in a dispute before an IBAN, and I explained that is exactly why the IBAN should not have been insittuted in the first place and have suggested a path forward to resolving that conflict of principles (which you have since !voted in favour of). But even if we take it for granted that Catflap violated the IBAN, you are still missing the larger picture that others have tried at length to impart to you. Because you can argue (and even be completely right about) the technicalities of a particular action taken by another contributor you are in conflict with, but if you bring the matter to AN/ANI, the community members here are going to look at the whole context of the dispute, consider how the IBAN came into effect and why it was deemed necessary and finally ask whether the contributions of either of you are presently worth the disruption you create between you.

Frankly, the truth is that you owe Catflap a huge debt of gratitude for proposing the IBAN. Because without it, you would certainly have been blocked for blatantly ignoring the warnings of an admin (and the recommendation of the community broadly in multiple spaces) to back away from him. If all he wanted was truly to win that content dispute, then he went about it in about the worst way possible, since all he had to do was wait for you to recieve your well-earned block, revert you, and then have the procedural high-ground once/if you were unblocked. Instead, he pushed for an IBAN, seeming to genuinely want to just be through with you. And yeah, you know what, having made that decision and set us down that path, he should have lived with the consequences and not pushed for his version in that article again, if it meant undercutting your edits. And the editors here will probably find cause to see disruption in those actions. But his poor behaviour does not absolve you of your past disruption and WP:BATTLEGROUND outlook that helped set all of this in motion, especially if you are going to keep insisting we put this situation under a microscope...

You keep re-presenting the technicalities of Catflaps edits and whether the constitute reversion, putting up the same evidence again and again and taking any lack of resulting and immediate support for you as evidence that other editors here are either "confused" about these points or that they just aren't looking closely enough. But I assure you, a greater number of us have looked through the edits you keep reposting than you seem to think. Actually, it was while looking through those edits that something occurred to me, something concerning the fact that that you now have explicitly stated that you think it is unacceptable for Catflap to revert your edits on articles with content contested between the two of you. I remembered how you opposed the IBAN at first but then suddenly embraced it, and I can't now help but suspect that the reason is that you recognized that (at least by your own interpretation of the rules) that your version of the disputed content would be the one that would exist in perpetuum. So it seems to me that you believed in the IBAN to the extent that it protected your edits, but you didn't believe in the overall goal it was meant to serve (reducing disruption) enough to abide by the spirit of the community decision and just let this one go past.

But now we have an opportunity to take things in a different direction. If we get a consensus to dissolve the IBAN, and if both you and Catflap still view me as neutral in your content dispute, I will volunteer some time on that talk page to provide a third opinion and hopefully try to bridge the differences of perspective between you two over the sources, to find a compromise solution that is also consistent with policy. If you don't like me in that role, then I recommend WP:DRN, or you could try another RfC. But whatever you do, you're going to have to find a radically different way to approach one-another in the spaces you share in common. Because the only sanctions we have left are blocks and article/topic bans, which I don't think anyone is going to hesitate to consider next time these issues come back here and one or both of you has not been mindful of the amount of rope you have left. And aside from the possible consequences of failing to finally get along and collaborate, it's worth noting that it is just so much easier to reach a middle ground solution that to conduct a months-long campaign of policy battles that draw in and consume the editorial/project energy of your fellow contributors. And yet in addition to being easier, the collaborative approach is also vastly more rewarding.

Please consider what I am saying to you. Having taken an absurd number of paragraphs to make one last effort at making these points explicit, and to draw a distinction between A) what you view as unimpeachable evidence that Catflap is in the wrong in this one instance and B) the whole context that the community will consider when trying to decide what is the most practical and realistic way to stop this disruption once and for all, I know have exceeded the amount of time I was determined not to expend here by a factor of about twenty. But we can all consider our energy well-spent if, when the IBAN is dissolved (if indeed it is), both sides come to the table prepared to compromise and embrace the kind of collaborative approach that serves the encyclopedia best. You two are not meant to be opponents -- you're partners in a project here, and partners of the rest of us, as well. Keep that in mind and you will hopefully never have to worry about the word "ban" coming up in the course of your editorial work again. Snow ^{let's rap} 06:31, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: dissolve IBAN, find a more realistic solution to this conflict

See my last posting in this thread (as well as the previous comments diffed at its beginning) to see exactly why an IBAN can accomplish nothing here except to recycle this feud through the noticeboards endlessly. Neither editor has every voiced any interest in letting go of the content issues which brought about the acrimony between them and there is insufficient third party oversight (or even involvement) in the affected pages to keep them from stumbling over eachother's edits and directly butting heads immediately. This was an ill-thought-out community solution (to which I admittedly took part, despite reservations) that needs to be recognized as untenable here, given the circumstances and attitudes of the involved parties. As a first step to finding an actual solution to this conflict, I think the IBAN needs to be dissolved. After that, the best (if still quite underwhelming) suggestion I can give on the next course of action would be to give basic dispute resolution processes one more try. I believe WP:DRN has not yet been explored, for example. If uncivil, non-collaborative, and disruptive behaviours persists, one or both editors should be page/topic banned from the relevant articles/subjects. Snow ^{let's rap} 04:47, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Megasupport (as nom) Snow ^{let's rap} 04:47, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support First off, @Snow Rise: there is no evidence that I am trying to continue the underlying content dispute; I just don't a user with whom I am mutually IBANned reverting my edits. The only reason I initially agreed to the IBAN was because no one ever told me how hard it was to report IBAN violations. I can choose to assume that if I reverted a bunch of Catflap's edits and he reported me he would het just as poor a hearing as I have. But I have no interest in reverting Catflap's edits. So as is this is a de facto one-way IBAN, which no one agreed to.

I would, though, like to hear back from @Sturmgewehr88: and @Black Kite: first, since they appear to have taken the time to go through all the diffs and recognized that Catflap reverted me, not the other way round.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:06, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support - I honestly think Catflap violated the IBAN when he manually reverted Hijiri88's edits. If he's not going to face any consequences, then the IBAN seems pointless. The IBAN should be lifted and both editors given WP:ROPE awaiting further disruption, at which point TBANs will be in order. As an aside, @Snow Rise: I've heard of "strongest support possible" but "megasupport" is a new one :) ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 09:33, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Well I did just mean it as a one-off effort to combine humor, exasperation, and emphasis, but now I'm thinking it could be a thing; it could certainly get some mileage in this space! ;) Snow ^{let's rap} 10:07, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Removal of the IBAN, and may I suggest a path forward, instead placing them both under a 1RR rule. That should end edit warring at least. AlbinoFerret 07:49, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

That's the best idea I've seen since this discussion began, AF. Of course, it requires they have a third party editing the page, since otherwise they will each really only be able to add content to the page -- meaning that with an inability to remove content there is a risk of it getting glutted with large amounts of often contradictory information as each party tries to drown out the other's message. But then, my impression is that these two could use some outside perspective and a buffer for the present time anyway. Snow ^{let's rap} 08:03, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes they will need an outside editor, one who has some idea of the topic other than a quick read (like me). Should we start a section on it? AlbinoFerret 00:14, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Umm... could I ask if either of you know what exactly the "underlying content dispute" between me and Catflap actually is? Because as far as I am aware, the dispute is solely about whether a source should be attached to a statement it doesn't directly support; not a content dispute, but an issue of one user simply not understanding WP:V and WP:NOR. Before asserting that both Catflap and I (rather than just one of us) are incapable of talk-page discussion without an intermediary some recognition of this point would be appreciated. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

For the record, though, I'm not opposed to an intermediary. @Shii: would be great: he knows a lot about Japanese religion, is diligent with sourcing problems, and he and I have rarely agreed about stuff in the past, so there would likely be no cause to call him biased (contrary to popular opinion, I don't follow Catflap around, so I don't know if they have any kind of history of interaction, though). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I am familiar with both Catflap and Hijiri and consider them both valuable to the project, although that hardly means I agree with them a lot. I also hate IBANs and would happily mediate if some kind of arbitration will take place. But I'm not going to be online 24/7 these days. Shii (tock) 10:13, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Neutral I am not willing to deal with editors who use insulting language (no matter if they strike it afterwards or not), (to my mind) bad faith edits on articles I concentrate on, childlike comments within their edits on articles about my home. I do hear that the ANI is an IBAN free zone. I also do not want to deal with editors who wish that the “opponent” to be blocked from en.Wikipedia. If an IBAN is that easily lifted then it will speak for itself. I would also welcome if admins do have a clue on the matters they get involved in and decide on.--Catflap08 (talk) 19:00, 15 May 2015 (UTC) If an editor finds it to be necessary to underline his/her edits with swear words and insults (strike or not) on a regular basis I do not find it to be a need to seek any consensus but to rather ignore such an individual. And for the record I am not spending my time here to be called names – not having that, not in real life nor in here. --Catflap08 (talk) 19:07, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Catflap, you had a golden ticket to keep Hijiri out of your life in the form of the IBAN (which we should obviously have never considered granting you, given your obvious lack of intention to avoid the other party). You chose to violate the sanction and the reason we are now prepared to do away with it is because it is never going to work (and never could have) if you two were not prepared to abide by it. And let's be clear, you are the party which violated it, not Hijiri. You knew (or certainly should have known) that this would cause him to fly here immediately to impose this onerous issue on the community at large once again, just weeks after we last discussed it. And frankly, the only reason you haven't been blocked already for this violation is that the editors here recognized Hijiri's own long-standing contributions to this feud. But for you complain about the weakness of our dedication to an IBAN which is causing problems rather than solving them is incredibly obtuse, since the only alternative was that follow protocol and block you for the violation immediately. Regardless, you cannot continue to contribute on the contested articles unless you are willing to collaborate with all parties there, including Hijiri.

Frankly, I've seen enough of the approaches of both you and Hijiri to this problem, and of your mutual lack of will to reach for a collaborative approach that might keep us from having to recycle this discussion endlessly. I was prepared to propose the only solution that now seems plausible to me, given the intractability and behavioural issues of both of you on the articles you contest between you, namely that you both be page banned from both Kokuchūkai and Kenji Miyazawa. But now I find that proposal awkward and ill-suited, since Hijiri has said he would be willing to consider mediation and a third (apparently neutral) editor who has worked with you both has agreed to try to facilitate that attempt. I have a hard time proposing that Hijiri be page banned before that effort, since there was a specific call for him to do so. But if you refuse to mediate, and insist continuing to edit war in violation of an IBAN you asked for, then maybe the solution is to page ban just you. Or page ban one of each of you from each of the two articles in question. In any event, if you won't come to table, I'm afraid one of these options will have to be implemented, since you cannot just refuse to work with other editors on an article you wish to remain active on. Snow ^{let's rap} 21:45, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed with the last sentence especially. Shii (tock) 02:31, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@Snow Rise: Could you explain what you mean whwn you say I have been unwilling to edit collaboratively on those two articles? On the Kokuchukai article, I have been struggling for months to try to figure out what Catflap's problem with my edits is, so I could work to accommodate him and edit collaboratively, and have been met with nothing but misquoting of sources and accusations of personal attacks and tendentious editing.

As for the Kenji article -- clearly you have not even looked at that talk page or thr edit history of the article. Just look at Talk:Kenji Miyazawa/redraft to see me, User:Nishidani and User:Icuc2 (two users with whom I rarely agree all that much when it comes to article content) to fix the problems that have plagued the article for years.

I would ask that you kindly refrain from any further assertions that I have trouble editing collaboratively, especially since further down this pahe you are currently still supporting a page ban against me proposed by a user who does refuse to edit collaboratively.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:25, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Woah. Just realized my above comment sounds unusually petty/grouchy given that two users have finally offered to help put this problem to rest and I finally got recognition that the IBAN was violated and not by me. I had not read SR's comment as closely as perhaps I might have, and I was perhaps also frustrated by the still bubbling-up shitstorm downstairs (hopefully the Wikipedia equivalent of Mack from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. will be around to talk some sense into that debate soon...). Anyway, I apologize for the above gruffness. I am deeply appreciative of finally getting recognition that I was not the one violating the IBAN. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:23, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Issue with large-scale changing of terminology...

Dan Koehl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Recently Dan began a widespread replacement of the term "Viking" with the "Norsemen" across many articles. This follows various debates over the last year or so (if memory serves) about when, where and how it is most appropriate to use these terms in articles, which carry subtly different meanings among scholars and non-scholars, and which translate differently (I believe) between English and Scandinavian languages.

There have been various interventions about these changes, including: Talk:Vikings#Former_viking; Talk:Battle of the Conwy#Norsemen; Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Norse history and culture#Campaign to replace "viking" by "Norsemen". Among the points raised by @Mutt Lunker:, @Johnbod:, @CambridgeBayWeather: and @PatHadley: and myself on Dan's talk page have been the perceived lack of consensus for these changes, and the apparent technical errors made in the process (e.g. renaming the titles of cited works, changing the content of direct quotes etc.). During the course of today, Johnbod, @Dudley Miles: and @Ealdgyth: have raised the issue on my talk page, User talk:Hchc2009#Vikings, variously proposing and expressing support that an administrator be asked to intervene.

I am convinced that Dan is acting in good faith but there is a lack of community consensus for his changes, which appear to be causing some irritation to many editors. Administrator assistance in calming and bringing this episode to a productive conclusion. Hchc2009 (talk) 15:52, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Read the dispute resolution policy for ways to deal with a content dispute. Moderated discussion at the dispute

resolution noticeboard or a Request for Comments would be two possibilities. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:03, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Super-unhelpful! It's well gone beyond that. He has had the usage of "Viking" in English carefully explained to him by several editors over weeks if not months but takes nothing in, perhaps partly because of his iffy English, but mainly because he won't accept that the meaning of terms in English will often differ from their meaning in other languages. Of course he is acting in "good faith" but these edits to several hundred articles, many producing grossly incorrect English, impose a huge burden on other editors who need to revert them. An immediate block is required. A few examples I've reverted, from hundreds that I haven't: "The town has Norsemen roots in common with..." at Crosby, Merseyside; "Ormen Stutte (Short Serpent) was a Norsemen longship...", at Ormen Stutte (longship); "Later it saw the influence of the Norsemens as seen in the name of Carlingford Lough." at County Louth. All these basic errors are repeated many, many times. Johnbod (talk) 20:18, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

As an uninvolved editor, I agree. This is something that an admin needs to address. GregJackP Boomer! 21:19, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Ah, that explains that change of "Viking" to "Norsemen" on Brooklyn Historical Society. I guarantee that when George B. Post desihned the building in the late 19th century, it was a statue of a Viking he called for, not a Norseman, which is why I reverted the edit. This sounds like another political correctness argument, which, or course, is essentially a POV argument, which eventually leads to the euphemism treadmill: "Viking" is all of a sudden considered to be insulting, so it is replaced by "Norseman", until that becomes insulting and is replaced by something else: "Scandians", maybe.

I'd say definitely needs a consensus arrived at in a centralized discussion. BMK (talk) 21:55, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Just want to clearify, I have changed from viking (activity pirate related) to Norse, in such instances when its clear that the text related to Nnorse people of Scandinavian ancestry. While the term viking is a controversial term, (will not go into details with that) Norse, and Norsemen is certainly not. Therefore I see no harm or dramatic in this, a visitor to Wwikipedia will through the link come to the article about Nnorse people with background to Sscandinavian as an ethnic Nnorse speaking group, rather than to a page with emphasis in pirate activities. My hope is to reduce confusion with this. There is a reason why the project Wikipedia:WikiProject Norse history and culture is not called Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Viking history and culture, and since the Nnorse culture were not sleeping or sent away throughout the viking age (800-1066) its perfectly normal to relate to the Nnorse as ethnic group before, during and after the viking age. In cases of raiding s, plunder etc, I have not changed the word viking, only when it replaced the correct for the people, Nnorse. Please don't forget, that even if Eenglish speaking books relates to Scandinavianscnadinavin as pirates and vikings during this period, there was a vital and fruitful Sscandinavian culture, before during an dafter the viking age, and its called Nnorse, and the people Norsemennorsement, they spoke Nnorse. There was no people called viking and no language called vikingish.... Comments regarding large scale; well, some users obviously made large scale links to viking, instead of Norse, when they related to ethnic group, and culture, it was here the error was made, not by me. I hope this clearances. Theres nothing controversial with the term Norsemen, like with viking, not until toady, anyhow. The term Viking is popular among laymen and people moved by the 1800 century romantic stories, but Norse is the term historians and archaeologists use for the ethnic groups in Scandinavia during iron age. clearifies. Dan Koehl (talk) 21:49, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

(restoring link above) Dan, I'd be grateful if you didn't delete the links that I posted above. Hchc2009 (talk) 21:57, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

In the instance I cited above, the source said "Viking", so that's what the article should say. You should not presume to think you know the intent of the source, whether it meant "pirate", "raider", "perfectly nice people from the Northlands" or whatever. Here in the U.S, there is generally no negative connotation to "Viking". All of this is why your mass change is in need of a consensus. BMK (talk) 22:00, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

And "clarify", the word is "clarify", not "clearify". BMK (talk) 22:00, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

It's no use trying to explain English language usages to him, he knows better, which is the whole problem. Regardless of terminology issues, most of his edits are straight ungrammatical - he cannot grasp that, unlike "Viking", "Norsemen" is only a plural noun in English. There is already a very clear and wide consensus against these mass changes, far larger than the average RFC picks up. He needs to be told very firmly to stop making them, or ideally blocked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnbod (talk • contribs) 23:48, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Dan's bizarrely mistyped and unfocused post above is perhaps an extreme example of his talk postings, to the extent that it may possibly be due to a temporary factor, but it demonstrates that at the very least he does not have sufficient WP:COMPETENCE in the English language to be editing on the English Wikipedia, and particularly not regarding the usage of a term which in English has significant differences to its usage in his language. Is such demonstrable incompetence not clear cut grounds to put a temporary block on him as he is resolutely intransigent in acceptance of efforts to explain his misunderstandings regarding both definition of the term and grammar? He's causing mayhem. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:18, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

If there's already a consensus about this, then is is allowable for some one with one of the automated program to just undo his edits? I could do it, but my finger would get chafed from all the button pushing. (I don't use automated tools except HotCat). BMK (talk) 00:52, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Also, unless something has changed, I thought AWB was only supposed to be used for non-controversial edits? These seem controversial to me, which would suggest that perhaps his right to use AWB should be revoked. BMK (talk) 01:02, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I've asked that question at WP:AWB. BMK (talk) 01:59, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

• I have to say, that I find it not polite to try to make this discussion a personal issue, rather than focus on the subject.
• When YOU accuse me of making large-scale changing of terminology, I wish to remind you, that someone did this before, but the other way around, linked everything Norse to the article viking, which is such an amateur porridge of non-science that it will never be a real article, until someone gets the bright idea and start to write about vikings on the article vikings, and let the article Norsemen be an article about the Norse people in general
• The term Norsemen is over 1 000 years old, and I find it amusing that you ask for a consensus for its existence.
• Norsemen were so much more than the trapped comic strip archetype you have made them to in the article viking.
• I ask you please stop this crusade and accept that when speaking about language, culture, ethnicity, the word viking is hopelessly wrong to use, while the old word Norse is natural and correct.
• I believe we all want a better Wikipedia. My suggestion is that we put some faith to the members in Wikipedia:WikiProject Norse history and culture. Just repeat prestigious claims of "traditions" isn't enough to develop this, you need to to think outside your box.
• Like the Norse did.
• I guess and hope that no one wants to remove our history, culture and ethnical ancestry, and remove the pages Norsemen and Wikipedia:WikiProject Norse history and culture? And if you don't want to remove those pages, I hope you don't want to remove links to the pages either.
• And I hope you will not remove all the written sources on Wikipedia, that makes it clear for a 7 year old child, that Norse and Viking was not the same thing:

1. The first documented use of the word viking is made by Orosius, written in latin, and translated into old english. There is to read about Alexander the Great´s father, Philip II of Macedonia: Philippus vero post longam obsidionem, ut pecuniam quam obsidendo exhauserat, praedando repararet, piraticam adgressus est. translated into:ac he scipa gegaderade, and i vicingas wurdon. In this time the word pirat was not used in the english language, the latin piraticamwas directly translated to vicingus.

- You complain about my english, I hope you can read your own (old-english) language above, and what it says? (I can...)

-No, Macedonia is not in Scandinavia... And in the Icelandic sagas even arabs are described with the word Viking, when they are attacking the Norse ships...

2. King Harald the Hairfair heard that the vikings, who were in the West sea in winter, plundered far and wide in the middle part of Norway; and therefore every summer he made an expedition to search the isles and out-skerries (1) on the coast. Wheresoever the vikings heard of him they all took to flight, and most of them out into the open ocean. At last the king grew weary of this work, and therefore one summer he sailed with his fleet right out into the West sea. First he came to Hjaltland (Shetland), and he slew all the vikings who could not save themselves by flight. Then King Harald sailed southwards, to the Orkney Islands, and cleared them all of vikings. Thereafter he proceeded to the Sudreys (Hebrides), plundered there, and slew many vikings who formerly had had men-at-arms under them.

-King Harald would never agree that he was a viking-king, he was, like probably 99% of Scandinavian Norsemen were, fighting vikings.

3. Egil Skallagrimsson about Bjørn Farmann: Björn var farmaður mikill, var stundum í víking, en stundum í kaupferðum; Björn var hinn gervilegasti maður. (english: Björn was a great traveller; sometimes as viking, sometimes as tradesman.)

Only with those three examples (and theres hundreds) you will have extremely difficult to explain what a viking is, and what difference there is between vikings and normal people from Scandinavia, if you stubbornly use the same word for two different meanings.

For over 1 000 years viking was just a translation of the word pirat until the fifties, when Americans wanted to call everything Scandinavian viking. And very MUCH simplifying thing with that, and later making it complicated.

This is probably the reason why the article viking is still on start level after 13 years on Wikipedia. Because in order to get the stories there OK; a lot of facts and sources must be excluded. With this concept you will never reach a good article, it will remain pubertal comic strip "information", and people have to translate the German article about vikings to get some scientific substance.

But Im not telling you what to do, Im just saying that there is no need for a consensus that I am from Sweden, and have blue eyes, there is no need for a consensus that the sky is blue, and there is no need for a consensus, that the correct term in English for my people, their culture, and medieval language is Norse. You can't change this by voting.

So why, did you revert my links to the the page Norsemen, when I only did the links in text where it was clear that there was reference to people and a culture, and not to raiding pirates?

And please remember, its not me who use my language to call you things which is not true, so could you please give a little respect to my ancestors, and stop calling them pirates? You have stopped calling other people with different skin colors for names you used for hundreds of years, it must be possible to quit this game of "all Scandinavians ARE vikings" game?

Vikings could be arabs practising piracy, and vikings could be macedonian kings practising piracy, but peaceful Norse farmers, and their wife's, were never, ever, described as vikings before 1900!

Dan Koehl (talk) 02:50, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion, User:Dan Koehl should be blocked for disruptive editing unless he will agree to stop making these changes. And his access to WP:AWB should be immediately withdrawn. See his contributions for all the usage of AWB to change Vikings to Norsemen. AWB must not be used to make controversial edits. EdJohnston (talk) 03:10, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

1. I stopped over 24 hours ago. 2. Can you please explain to me, what is controversial by making a link to Norsemen from a chapter that tells about Norsemen? If Im from Sweden, would you also forbid me to make a link to Swedish, and block me, if I don't make a link from my person to Viking? Whay shall everything Norse be linked to Viking, and not to Norse?

Or, put it the other way around, what can, according to your opinion, be linked to Norsemen?

Dan Koehl (talk) 03:16, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

If you don't see why this is controversial I wonder if we should take seriously any promises from you to behave better. EdJohnston (talk) 03:50, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

When multiple other editors object to your mass edits, they are, by definition "controversial", especially when you do not have a consensus to back them up. Therefore, I second EdJohnston's suggestions. Dan Koehl should be blocked until he agrees not to change "Vikings" or "Viking" to "Norsemen" (in whatever form), and his AWB rights should be removed immediately, unless and until he can show that he will not use the program to make non-consensus edits. BMK (talk) 04:06, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of a block, or a topic ban, or not, the AWB rights do need to be revoked immediately – only editors that demonstrate competence with special tools should be allowed to maintain them, and that has definitely not been the case in this instance. --IJBall (talk) 04:21, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm trying to summarize: you claim that Norsemen and Vikings are the same? But when I make a link to Norsemen from an article where its easy, from the text to define that the text is about Norsemen, this is controversial? Is it only controversial if I link to Norsemen, but not to viking, is this the logic? And, making links from text about Norsemen, to the article Norsemen is such a crime, that you speak about blocking me, remove rights to AWB etc, this almost sounds like what happened some hundreds years ago with the guy who claimed that earth is not flat...

Where is the will of cooperation, where is the will of making both articles better, where is the will of making this all understandable for the website visitor, where is the will to improve Wikipedia? I only see politics here?

I must ask again, why don't you delete everything written with the word Nors, or Norsemen, if its not OK to make links to the article?

I think I need to remind you what is written in Norsemen:

Norsemen refers to the group of people who spoke what is now called the Old Norse language between the 8th and 11th centuries. The language belongs to the North Germanic branch of the Indo-European languages, and is the earlier form of modern Scandinavian languages.

Norseman means "person from the North" and applied primarily to Old Norse-speaking tribes who settled in southern and central Scandinavia. They established states and settlements in England, Scotland, Iceland, Wales, the Faroe Islands, Finland, Ireland, Russia, Greenland, France, Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Germany, and Poland, as well as outposts in Sicily and North America.

All the links I did to the article where from text where it was relevant to link to Norsemen, why do you speak like if I have made a crime? If I would have made links from 100% of the text I could understand, but like I said, I didn't make links from text where it was about raiding and piracy, I made links where the norse people where discussed. If Norsemen are not banned on Wikipedia, what is wrong with making a link to them?

Dan Koehl (talk) 05:27, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

OR, if anyone here claims that Viking and Norse are synonymous, can you please point me to a consensus about hat? And if they are the same, what is wrong with links between them? Why must 100% of the links be to viking?? But if they are not synonymous, can anyone here explain you position, what is according to you the difference between Norsemen and vikings, making it a crime to link text about Norsemen to Norsemen, and good if text about Norsemen is linked to article viking? Where are the discussions, the decisions, the consensus for all this?

You are speaking to me as if I have made a crime, and I want to tell you, I'm a user on Wikipedia since 2002, Im admin on 2 Wikimedia projects, I fight vandalism almost every day (see my log) and I'm not a criminal, and I can't see that anyone can logically even explain what I have done wrong, except for coming up with opinions, that a certain text should be linked to article viking, and not to Norsemen, but without a valid reason or explanation? All I want is to improve Wikipedia. Dan Koehl (talk) 05:39, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you have "made a crime" - in your twisted English idiom - and that is that you have made major changes to the encyclopedia without having the approval of the community to do so. This is not the place to get approval for doing so; here, admins can only sanction you; for not getting approval, because this board only deals with aberrant behavior. Approval has to come (and I believe this is the fourth time I'm saying this) from a centralized discussion of the entire Wikipedia community and not just from the approval of a mere Wiki{Project. I believe that the senze of this discussion is that you must stop making those edits until that consensus is determined. If you do not stop, it appears to me that there are a number of Admins who are willing to make you stop by blocking you. If that is what you want, to be blocked from editing, keep on doing what you're doing -- knowing that there are a number of editors who will revert your edits as being non-consenual, and you will end up being blocked. If, instead, you wish to deal with this in the Wikipedian way, you need to begin the centralized discussion I mentioned above, and produce straightforward and understandable' evidence to support your position. Really, the choice is yours. BMK (talk) 08:26, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

As I stated yesterday above, I havnt made any edits since two days now. You most probably know that, but try politically to make it look like Im breaking rules etc. Sad. Dan Koehl (talk) 11:50, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Let's try again. I'm not sure how it's still possible that there are still misunderstandings in this thread but, since Dan Koehl is using lots of bulleted lists: here's my attempt to reframe the terms of the issue:

1. The issue is not whether Norsemen is either:
   1. A useful or accurate historical term
   2. Referred to a real people (ethnically or linguistically) from Scandinavia in the 8th-13th centuries
   3. More politically neutral than Viking
   4. What such people might have used as a term to refer to themselves
   5. A more frequently used term before the C20th

All these issues are real, interesting and deserve well-referenced coverage on the (already pretty good) etymology section of the Vikings article and possibly elsewhere. Dan, you have continued to make points (many of which have been conceded by others) on these issues but have failed to address the points of others:

1. The issue is when Norsemen is a more appropriate and idiomatic term than Vikings on English Wikipedia. This depends on:
   1. The terms used in the scholarly literature - Viking is used extensively and CANNOT be changed when being referred to or quoted
   2. Whether Norsemen makes grammatical sense on articles. In many of Dan's replacements it does not
   3. The terms that are most frequently used by the wider public (in the 21st century!). Vikings is far more popular and relevant. Compare: Google search for Vikings with Google search for Norsemen. Also see the explanation Who were the Vikings? on the web page of the UK's most popular Viking museum.

There may be a few articles where, despite the above points, Norsemen is more appropriate. These should be sought out and changed individually, not with AWB.

Dan, are there any of these points you're prepared to address? If not, might I suggest that a discussion is begun on Swedish Wikipedia's village pump (there's no embassy). Perhaps another fluent, bilingual editor could help explain that the use of Vikings on English Wikipedia is neither inaccurate or an linguistic slur. There must be terms in Swedish that have similarly changed meaning in the last few hundred years. Let's hope we can get through this! PatHadley (talk) 10:39, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

There is an intellectual problem here. You are discussing the term Viking, Im discussing the term Norsemen. I made links to Norsemen. There is no available consensus, that I can find, that making links to Norsemen, should be a poor choice. Dan Koehl (talk) 11:52, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

And now I'm supporting a block on the basis of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. --IJBall (talk) 12:27, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Dan Koehl, we are not here at ANI to have a content discussion about Vikings. Since almost everyone agrees that your edits pose a problem, we want to know if you are willing to stop these changes. If you continue with the vague statements (all of which assume the correctness of your own position) a block would appear to be the simplest solution. EdJohnston (talk) 16:49, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

This has gone to far now. I did a normal Wikipedia action, making links about Norsemen to the article Norsemen. Since there were so many, I used AWB. Now theres allegations against me that I have abused AWB, and should be blocked, with the motivation that, linking to the article Norsemen is some sort of crime, however not specified why. Although I stopped making the links the same day, (several days ago) there's repeated "threats" written above, that if I don't stop (which I already did) I will be blocked from Wikipedia etc. I can see no other reason for this, apart from that for a reader it should look as if Im daily, repeatedly, vandalizing Wikipedia, which is for sure not the case, contrary, Im active daily as patroller. The use of "everyone" (against my links) made me suspicious, and after reading through this thread, as all as making a second analyze of the entire issue, as well noticing how personal the critics against my person are, instead of focusing on the subject, and the efforts to try make it look like I have vandalized Wikipedia, (when all I dd was making links to article Norsemen I now see:

• The article Viking is for some reason preferred by a group of users
• There is less than 100 links to article Norsemen.
• There is less than 100 links to article Norse, and most of them from talk pages.
• But there is thousands of links to article Viking.

Someone, or group of people, have a POV campaign going on, changing all links Norsemen, into links to Viking. Its like they want to kill and remove the article Norsemen?and they are now upset, when I interrupted this. Im not particularly focusing on the controversial term Viking, but on the absence of use of the terms Norse and Norsemen, and the reasons behind this. Those two articles are the natural names pace to tell about Scandinavian culture and history, but for some reason the article is more or less getting censored by a limited, but strong group of people, against logical arguments.

This issue is much more serious than I though, and for sure needs attention from admins and Wikipedia:WikiProject Norse history and culture. This is against how Wikipedia should work, and against the NPOV rule.

Dan Koehl (talk) 10:46, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

And, again, we get WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, now with a side of not assuming good faith. There is nothing to suggest this editor even realizes their editing is a problem, let along acknowledging it as such. Again, support loss of AWB privileges at a minimum, and support a block if they start up on their previous course of action of changing "Viking" to "Norsemen" against Consensus. --IJBall (talk) 16:03, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, the editor's continued focus here on content, despite being told that the matter being discussed here is behaviour, shows that they either refuse to take heed or have an inability to comprehend the issue. Either way they are not suitable to hold AWB privileges. The editor did finally stop their editing campaign but only after repeated notifications that the edits were both ungrammatical and controversial, points they have still not conceded apparently. A topic ban is also required. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:16, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, but note that having started his campaign at "A", he only stopped when he had reached "Y", ie probably when he had run out of articles. Johnbod (talk) 16:23, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Aha, no extenuating circumstances then. I wondered what had prompted the abrupt stop as it clearly wasn't acceptance of the points being made. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:59, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

In my view if he understood the issues with grammar and context and promised to do any changes slowly and manually, with discussion on an article by article basis, that might be the best outcome in terms of improving the encyclopedia. But I definitely agree he needs to be prevented from making any kind of automated edits in this area. Happy Squirrel(Please let me know how to improve!) 16:38, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

How much more can possibly done to help him understand? He's impervious. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:59, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I think there is a problem here of both communication and willing to compromise. Eventually, you five users share the opinion that Norsemen is an article that should not be used, or at least not linked to, while you prefer to make links to the article viking. As a consequence, you want other users to do the same, and if they don't, you change the links from Norsemen to Vikings. Then after my edits, you want to force me to follow your opinion, by threats of blocking and removal og AWB, but all this without a valid motivation, except that your opinion. You don't accept the validity of the article Norsemen or that links to this article is perfectly accepted by Wikipedia community. Then you think that you can change the world, and the existence and use of article Norsemen, by calling five peoples opinion a consensus?

By all means, I never saw a more direct case of a limited group of people who want to push the majority to follow their POV opinion. Wikipedia doesn't work that way, and consensus (or your type of "consensus") can never replace verified sources. The term Norsemen exists, weather you like it or not. If I make links to that article, you can't just say that Im breaking Wikipedia rules, should be blocked and have my AWB removed. The rule of NPOV is always the most important, and should be followed. My suggestion is that you take active part in discussions about those two terms, and consider being more willing to compromise and see other users point of view. With a reasonable willing of tolerating other people views, we can together build up an even better Wikipedia. Dan Koehl (talk) 10:04, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

QED Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:48, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree, but it's unlikely at this point that Dan Koehl will be blocked unless he starts uo again making changes without a consensus to do so. If he does, a new AN/I should be open (assuming that this one will have scrolled off the board by them), with specific reference to this report, and the consensus among commenters here that a block is warranted. BMK (talk) 21:55, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Dan, NONE of the opinions you attribute to me are at all correct, & I doubt the other (many more than) 5 hold them either. But why should I waste my time explaining in detail how and why this is so, when you take in nothing that is said to you? Johnbod (talk) 19:39, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• The terminology changes don't all appear to be backed by sources or common usage, e.g. [7] and some similar edits changed "Viking longships" to "Norsemen longships" which sounds ridiculous. "Norsemen longships" gets 85 google hits, many of which seem to be in the possessive ("the Norsemen's longships") while "Viking longships" gets around 80k hits. So imho, those edits are outright errors. 2. Yes, changes on such a scale really have to be discussed ahead of time, per WP:MEATBOT and WP:BOTASSIST. It's not ok to make similar edits on 100's or 1000's of articles without first engaging the other editors. Separate from any regard to the Viking/Norsemen content question, there is a behavioural issue of inappropriate high-speed editing going on here. Dan, if you want to make changes on a large scale, please discuss first at WP:BRFA or maybe WP:VPR. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 19:02, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring by User:DanJazzy on Kenny G article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:DanJazzy continues to remove smooth jazz from the list of genres on the Kenny G article, and keeps on adding a criticism section to the article, giving it undue weight. I tried to discuss the issue with him, but he refuses to comply, accusing me of disruptive editing. He is clearly gaming the system to try to get his way, when all reliable sources state that Kenny G is a smooth jazz musician. Looking at his edit history, this isn't the first time he has attempted to game the system to enforce his POV on specific issues. User is clearly a genre warrior. ANDROS¹³³⁷_TALK 16:59, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

At a glance, I say you didn't really have consensus to classify him as a smooth jazz artist, but technically there hasn't really been recent discussion of the matter, and the rationale of those opposing it in this section is some truly uuuuuuurgh-inducing sourgraping with no factual evidence by way of RS to back it up. So it comes down to what reliable sources say-- is he a smooth jazz artist, or no, and do the RSes say so? Per this piece in the Washington Post, smooth jazz appears to be described as a jazz-sounding song with no improvisation component-- however much of an authority this holds on the definition of smooth jazz remains to be seen-- and is also quick to mention Kenny G's work as part of that genre.

Anyway, this is a very content-dispute-flavored kettle of fish and you two ought to talk on the relevant article talkpage for it, but... My take on it is you're not giving the RSes you're saying prove he's a smooth jazz musician, and the onus is on you to prove it to attain consensus. Same onus is on Dan for the adult contemporary thing. As for the Criticism thing Dan wants to put in, WP:CRITICISM is an essay, so it can't be taken as the hard-and-fast rule for Criticism sections. BlusterBlaster^kablooie! 18:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, AllMusic includes smooth jazz in his list of styles [8]. Amazon also categorizes his albums as smooth jazz. Any sources that state otherwise (nearly exclusively from jazz purists) are not reliable sources, because they are in a perspective of a jazz purist rather than a neutral point of view. ANDROS¹³³⁷_TALK 19:21, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

And I guess Amazon's perspective is that of a company that wants to sell people things and not a reliable source on categorization of jazz musicians. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Uh... so there are no "appropriate" sources for the categorization of musicians by genre?! (That's why I'm getting out of this thread!) I'm thinking this is going to lead to problems... Is there a guideline specifically on this topic – genres for musicians, and what qualifies as a "reliable source" for such? --IJBall (talk) 01:37, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

agree with Liz. As far as WP:RSN has covered it before, to answer IJ, Allmusic has been considered reliable for music topics, but Andros is going to have to dig up more than one source to sway consensus in their favour since it's evidently contentious among editors what to classify his music. Additionally, taking the stance that anyone who disagrees with the smooth jazz POV (that's a statement I never thought I'd have to use, heh) must be a jazz purist, or worse unreliable, is not going to help matters-- you're verging on combative, genre warrior behaviour yourself by doing that. Take their analysis with a grain of salt, and focus on those with considerable academic merit or expertise in music, of course, but don't immediately discount their stance just because it's not yours. BlusterBlaster^kablooie! 01:39, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

to clarify, by "anyone" I mean that you shouldn't discount stances taken by RSes just because they disagree with you/yours; if editors DONTLIKEIT and can't counter it with RSes of their own, obviously they'll have to muster the strength to deal with it. BlusterBlaster^kablooie! 02:04, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I'll comment here only because I was asked. There was some reversion back and forth, but it hadn't reached 3RR, and truly seems to be a content dispute. I would invite @Andros 1337: to join the discussion on the relevant talk page, where I think some productive conversation is now taking place. Many reliable sources do in fact support his position, but the details aren't relevant here. I think that unless real edit-warring breaks out immediately, this one can be closed. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 14:52, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

With regards to the libelous allegations byANDROS¹³³⁷, please allow me to clarify as follows:-

1. Editors should visit this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kenny_G and this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DanJazzy. The disruptive editing is evident. It only stopped when I clarified Wiki policy on editing pages without consensus.

2. Th same editor accused me of gaming the system on "specific issues". I urge him to substantiate or withdraw the allegation.DanJazzy (talk) 16:45, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I see an exchange between two editors who have a content dispute and are not very civil, but I see nothing that can reasonably be categorized as "libelous". Because I see nothing that can reasonably be categorized as libelous, I do see a personal attack by User:DanJazzy against User:Andros 1337. I would suggest the use of a dispute resolution procedure, except that the editors will have to learn to comment on content rather than contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:05, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Inappropriate Actions and behavors by Editors Padenton and Msnicki

This was moved from Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests Sorry for starting in the wrong place. Not easy to get your footing where the right place is. Thanks to User:TransporterMan for pointing out my error.

I would like to draw your attention to [[9]]. The editors that proposed this deletion have been running their own personal vendetta.

This deletion request is, in my opinion, a vendetta against my arguments to keep the article NIM. [[10]] by Padenton|✉  and Msnicki (talk) who have tried to retaliate by deleting a slew of articles. Sources of information that were and are in my opinion quite notable are being deleted by Padention and Msnicki. Notice from a comment in the comment in the Nim deletion discussion how many articles are now missing.(Written by Itsmeront 23:06, May 11, 2015‎)

• Keep. There are Wikipedia articles about hundreds of programming languages. Many of them don't have any secondary sources. So why do you think Nim is not notable, but the following languages are? Obol (programming language), Picky (programming language), Little Interpreted Language, Seph (programming language), Halide (programming language), Roy (programming language), Plaid (programming language), Join-calculus (programming language), Objeck (programming language), Nemo (programming language), Ooc, Cl4 (programming language), Slave Programming Language, PureScript, Hope (programming language), MX Language, MCTRL, SmilScript, Wigzy, Mobl, Napier88 (I have just picked some random articles) --Trustable (talk) 23:49, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
• That argument is Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. Just because those haven't been deleted, doesn't make this article subject notable. ― Padenton|✉   00:20, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Also note in [[11]] when the vote when against them Pandenton 'Msnicki' decided to inappropriately push the issue [12] "Sorry, I really hate when people blackmail me. Please take it to DRV if you think it has any merit.--Ymblanter (talk)"

This is just another long run of actions that should have wikipedia editors to consider the modivations of these editors.

Itsmeront (talk) 23:03, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

• Time for a WP:BOOMERANG.

1. The article you made as a memorial for your friend does not establish his notability and his notability is in question, which makes it perfectly fair game to be nominated at AfD, especially since searches do not establish his notability either.
2. Those were all deleted fairly, you're welcome to talk to the closers and seek deletion review. Otherwise, get over it and stop re-posting this everywhere hoping someone will care, because they won't. I doubt even Trustable cares. You're welcome to ask him/her.
3. I have NEVER edited on Ymblanter's talk page, and the history proves it, so don't accuse me of stuff I have never done. The vote also didn't "go against me", it was no consensus for both the AfD and the deletion review.
4. It's nice that you notified Ymblanter on his talk page. But you failed to do so for myself and Msnicki as you are required to do in any editor dispute.

Can someone close this as there isn't a single honest thing Itsmeront has said and this isn't even close to being the correct venue? Though he's been forum shopping on this already a fair bit. ― Padenton|✉   04:23, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I corrected the reference above and attributed the blackmail to Msnicki. I also added a notice on both of your talk pages. Dr. Raab was was notable on his own, he was the heart and soul of a very large open source community, the deletion request is a tatic and harrassment. See also: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Roscelese for previous warning and collusion and the following on Msnicki (talk) page:

Please stay as far away from me as you can. If I do something wrong, surely somebody else will notice and take care of it. You do not need to try to police my activities or to make frivolous accusations that I started an attack page. Really? The nerve!

[diff] Content was deleted after I pointed to it.

Itsmeront (talk) 07:53, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the link to ( Trustable Talk) I do think that the comments from Caroliano are very useful and should also be reviewed.

@Padenton: You nominated a whole bunch of programmming languages at the same time based on his list. I can't do a serious search for sources on so many languages at once, and I don't want to see them all deleted, so I came here to ask for help, as he was interested in Nim deletion, maybe he don't want some of those languages articles lost. And I do think Wikipedia is being hurt by this. Caroliano (talk) 20:27, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Itsmeront (talk) 08:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

@Itsmeront: Not sure why you're linking the Roscelese enforcement request I brought to ArbCom, it doesn't support or serve as an example of a single claim you've made. All it shows is I'm a responsible Wikipedia editor that seeks admin assistance when an editor with previous restrictions reverts 1 1/2 weeks of a new editor's changes, possibly providing insufficient explanation. But here's an idea: how about you stay out of discussions you know nothing about? It seems more likely that you are the one with a grudge here, if you're digging through my history looking at every discussion I'm involved in. Is your goal to link to random discussions involving responsible acts by those you've accused in the hope that the reviewer of your claims will not read it and judge us guilty based on our being in those discussions? I said ask Trustable if he/she cares, not ask Caroliano. ― Padenton|✉   14:09, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

section deleted by request of EdJohnston. Itsmeront (talk) 20:46, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Everything above copied and pasted by: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Itsmeront (talk • contribs) (this line written by Padenton)

Statement by Padenton

Once again, I'm not sure why Itsmeront has chosen to stalk me to unrelated discussions about which he knows nothing and then claim that I am the one harassing him. I am certain that EdJohnston would be happy to comment on taking his words so wildly out of context. My statement on Itsmeront's complaints regarding me and Msnicki can be found here: [13]. I don't have the time nor interest in making sure Itsmeront has accurately quoted everything I said above (given the proof shown that he has made false accusations towards me before), but you can read my statement at that link. Once again, I am requesting this be closed with a boomerang of some kind for Itsmeront for the reasons I have already mentioned in my responses at that link. ― Padenton|✉   18:20, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with User:Padenton. It makes no sense that User:Itsmeront has done a cut-and-paste from an unrelated posting about ARBGG at WP:AE#Roscelese and brought it here. Unless Itsmeront is willing to revert his copying from AE, my suggestion is that an uninvolved editor should collapse that material. EdJohnston (talk) 19:22, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi EdJohnston. Thank you for your comment. I have removed the material you found non-sensical. The point I was trying to make by including it was that Msnicki and Padenton attack people that disagree with them with an "I'll show them", attitude that I find harmful to Wikipedia. One would NOT reasonably expect reprisals after making a successful argument in support of an article. Attacks against articles that have been adjudicated previously and found to be notable are now brought up for deletion, by the same two people. Other articles mentioned in an arguemnt that were notable, see: WP:N#TEMP are being recommended for deletion on mass. And in my opinion, deleted while nobody is looking, out of spite, or lust for reputation or power without proper research or consideration. I was hoping to show a pattern of this behavior with other users experiences, but I understand your point and hope that others with similar experiences will speak up. I doubt that Wikipedia would want to discourage argument by allowing over zealous editors to fight people that disagree with them with personal vendettas. Itsmeront (talk) 20:46, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

It's funny that despite everything you've done, you still seem to think that Msnicki and myself are the ones with the vendetta. This "I'll show them" attitude you claim I have is baseless. And far more harmful to wikipedia is your lack of integrity and repeated attempts to falsely accuse me of things I haven't done, your dishonesty in cherry-picking and taking comments out of context, and your attempt to canvas editors you see disagreeing with me in order to start a lynchmob:

1. Such as claiming I blackmailed Ymblanter on his talk page when I have never even said anything on his talk page
2. Cherry-picking comments of a completely unrelated discussion you know nothing about that I am participating in and copying and pasting them in here (especially without making it clear that they are excerpts from a completely different discussion)
3. Failing to notify editors who you are complaining about which I had to remind you of at Editor assistance.
4. Canvassing of editors I am in completely irrelevant disputes with in the hopes that they support your inane claim based on some issue they have with me elsewhere (This is called a vendetta, you hypocrite) as you did here: User_talk:Sonicyouth86#Wikipedia:Administrators.27_noticeboard.2FIncidents.23Inappropriate_Actions_and_behavors_by_Editors_Padenton_and_Msnicki.

The deletions of the articles on the list Trustable made in the Nim AfD. Let's discuss that for a minute.

1. You brought up the complaint that I nominated several of the articles Trustable mentioned for deletion in the Nim AfD.
2. You brought it up in the AfD here: [14]
3. You brought it up here Wikipedia:Editor_assistance/Requests#Inappropriate_Actions_and_behavors_by_Editors_Padenton_and_Msnicki
4. You are now bringing it up here in ANI.

And all this time you fail to realize that Trustable fully supported my taking those articles to AfD. I notice you didn't notify Trustable of the new discussion.

That almost all of the ones I nominated ended up with a consensus to delete proves that other editors were unable to find evidence they met the notability guidelines, and that the AfD was warranted. The only articles that I nominated and remain from that list are:

• Halide (programming language) - Closed no consensus. Unsurprisingly, still has little evidence of its notability.
• Join-calculus (programming language) - Closed merge. Essentially a duplicate article of Join-calculus. Pretty much the equivalent of delete, as it will remain merely a redirect after that's done.
• Hope (programming language) - I never took this to AfD.
• Napier88 - I never took this to AfD either.

Clearly, based on the above, people didn't agree with you that slashdot, reddit, ycombinator, and github are reliable sources nor that they establish notability.

Newsflash: Just because you want to give your friend a WP:MEMORIAL, doesn't mean he's notable enough for Wikipedia, and any editor on Wikipedia is fully within their rights to dispute the notability. ― Padenton|✉   22:25, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Response From Itsmeront (talk)

My numbering doesn't match yours. Where there is a direct answer I have quoted your comment.

1. "Such as claiming I blackmailed Ymblanter on his talk page when I have never even said anything on his talk page "

• I have already corrected the record that it was Msnicki and not you that was accused of attacking an editor. I know you have read it, and seen the correction but even after it was corrected you mentioned it 3 times.

2. "Canvassing of editors I am in completely irrelevant disputes with in the hopes that they support your inane claim based on some issue they have with me elsewhere"

• Notifying users and editors is what you told me to do. I don't see this as canvasing.

3. Your actions to delete the articles were in retaliation to users that disagreed with you. I see no real research. Having other editors not want to take you on, I've seen other editors say you are constantly doing blanket, not properly researched, delete requests but I didn't mention them here, is exactly what I mean by deleting content when nobody is looking. complaints were ignored by you:

@Padenton: You nominated a whole bunch of programmming languages at the same time based on his list. I can't do a serious search for sources on so many languages at once, and I don't want to see them all deleted, so I came here to ask for help, as he was interested in Nim deletion, maybe he don't want some of those languages articles lost. And I do think Wikipedia is being hurt by this. Caroliano (talk) 20:27, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

and instead you attacked people that dared to disagree with you. See: User_talk:Caroliano Canvasing warning.

4. Not knowing where to air these issues is not the same as an attack against you. You have been citing quick close because this is not the right venue for this complaint. You could have pointed me to the right place instead of letting me flounder around. TransporterMan was nice enough to let me know.

Your words:

@Caroliano:Trustable did nothing. I'm the one who nominated them, as anyone should for any article that does not meet notability guidelines. The only reason these articles have not been nominated before is because no experienced editors had come across them, which is why WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a notability fallacy. If the article can stand up to scrutiny, it will remain. If not, it never deserved to be on Wikipedia in the first place. Stop acting like someone is being hurt over this. ― Padenton|✉ 19:24, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

This to me is an attack against someone making a claim that blanket delete requests are not in Wikipedia best interest, both in terms of a hostile response, but also hostile actions in your warning, and deletion requests.

About Andreas Raab, he is and was extremely notable. I hope that you will be also be defeated in this AFD by editors that are more reasonable and less hostile then you. Your arguments against NIM are not the same as the augments here. Claiming number of citations on published articles, or position in naming on papers, is just nuts. Your argument for the deletions of Nim didn't hold water, and your argument against Andreas Raab even less. My biggest complaint is not about these two articles Nim and Andreas Raab. My complaint is your attack against people that argue against you. Wikipedia needs to be open to volunteers, and free of these types of attacks so that reasonable discussion can take place to improve the usefulness and quality of Wikipedia. This is not about protecting your Turf, and I hope that you will be properly punished for your actions. Itsmeront (talk) 23:08, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to respond to these in the order you presented them.

• The correction doesn't change the fact that you attempted to do it without checking your facts, which still seems to be a problem for you as you have continued.
• Read WP:CANVASSING. Notifying editors you have accused is required by WP:ANI policy. Notifying editors involved in a specific dispute is allowed by WP:CANVASSING. What you did was notify editors not involved in any way with this dispute, solely because you thought they would rally behind your attacks on me. This is called WP:Votestacking and is inappropriate canvassing.
• I've seen other editors say you are constantly doing blanket, not properly researched, delete requests but I didn't mention them here, is exactly what I mean by deleting content when nobody is looking. Those "other editors" have trouble understanding wikipedia policy. You have yet to show a single AfD where I did not properly research. You didn't mention them here because you know that they do not support your claim. Otherwise you would have no need to dig through in-progress discussions of no relevance to this dispute.
• Once again you have provided no evidence but your incessant whining. I don't care that you don't see "real research", as far as I have seen you will lie or use any fraudulent information you can to malign any who disagree with you. Anyone with common sense can guess that it would be wrong to pick and choose comments from disputes elsewhere, and paste them in here without even knowing what the dispute was about.
• Caroliano deserved the canvassing warning, again, read the policy here and get over it.
• Forgive me if I don't have the time to help you whine about me to every person on Wikipedia that you can. Especially when reading the top of Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests could have easily told you where to go.
• When you went to Trustable's talk page looking for anything you could dig up to attack me on, did you happen to notice the discussion before that post? Yeah....funny you don't mention that.
• Sadly, the say-so of a "friend of 10 years" isn't enough to support the claim that "About Andreas Raab, he is and was extremely notable."
• Claiming number of citations on published articles, or position in naming on papers, is just nuts. This is how it works in academia. Anyone can write a paper and papers are not enough to grant notability, especially when they have low citation counts. You can read more about it at the policy link I provided at the AfD, WP:ACADEMIC.
• Your argument for the deletions of Nim didn't hold water, My argument for the deletion of nim was that it wasn't notable. I'm sorry that you assumed every single person disagreeing with you wasn't a programmer (false) and therefore shouldn't have a say in the AfD (also false), and that github, slashdot, reddit, and ycombinator are reliable sources (yet again, false); but your inaccurate assumptions are not my problem.
• I am normally sympathetic towards new users, it was not too long ago that I was one myself. But my patience runs out when those new users refuse to read policy, make false claims against other editors, and bring up cherry picked discussions from another editor's history(which they know absolutely nothing about) in the hopes it will prejudice others against someone they disagree with. Wikipedia needs to be free of editors like that, you add absolutely nothing to the site and you have no interest in working with others when they disagree with you. Plenty of new wikipedia editors have little trouble reading about wikipedia policy when they're informed of it.
• This is not about protecting your Turf, and I hope that you will be properly punished for your actions. I have no turf. I'm just not going to sit here and take false accusations from you. Shocker. ― Padenton|✉   23:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Recommended close

Anyone is free to browse through the Nim, Andreas Raab and MX Language AfDs or the Nim DRV that Itsmeront complains about (I wasn't in any of the other cited discussions) and confirm that I've been consistently respectful, that my arguments have been consistently policy-based and that I've dutifully avoided responding to any of Itsmeront's silly taunts of vendettas and other nonsense. I've argued in good faith for deletion based on lack of reliable independent secondary sources to demonstrate notability. Itsmeront has argued for keep based on primary and self-published sources and popularity in social media and claimed without any plausible basis that the reason Padenton and I don't accept that as evidence of notability must be because we have it in for them.

I think this silliness has gone on long enough and recommend that this complaint be closed with no action beyond a warning to Itsmeront that making unsupported allegations of vendettas and repeatedly questioning other editors' good faith constitutes a pattern of WP:Personal attacks. It's not helpful and it's not allowed. If it happens again, Itsmeront should face a block.

Here at Wikipedia, we settle questions of whether, what and how to report based on WP:CONSENSUS. It is normal for people to disagree and that's why we've created everything from talk pages to deletion reviews where editors can present their evidence, explain how that satisfies the guidelines, argue for their position and seek support. It's also normal that even after an outcome has been decided, that not everyone will agree. Consensus does not require unanimity and we are all entitled to our opinions disagreeing with an outcome. All we ask is that you assume good faith and that you focus on the arguments and the evidence, not what you dislike about the other editors you may disagree with. You're entitled to your opinions about other editors; you're just not entitled to post every one of them.

Without clear evidence in the form of actual diffs, it is never helpful to speculate about the secret nefarious motives you suspect someone might have for their position, especially when their stated reasons are in fact all clearly guidelines and evidence-based and the real issue is that you just don't agree with the guidelines. It's also not helpful to cite irrelevant nasty things that others have said about someone. Who cares that someone else said something disrespectful? Itsmeront needs to find something that I said that was disrespectful. Itsmeront can't because it's not there. I behave myself and it's time Itsmeront started to do the same.

That's really all I have to say on the matter. Msnicki (talk) 17:39, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Resposne by ItsMeRonT

Both Msnicki and Padenton have been using Wikipedia editorial policy as a stick to poke people. I understand that Wikipedia editors are very important and I agree with the fact that deletions are a very necessary fact of life, lest Wikipedia turn into a garbage dump. The evidence is clear that the two editors that went after NIM is a way that seemed entirely unprofessional, then even took the close to Deletion Review, then took their show on the road against the person that argued against them. I thought there attitude so unprofessional I asked that:

• I would also ask that if Nim is going to be recommended for deletion in the future that Msnicki and Padenton refrain from submitting the article for deletion or participating in the discussions going forward Itsmeront (talk) 05:36, 30 April 2015 (UTC) Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2015_April_26#Nim_.28programming_language.29 Nim Deletion Review

Again I would like to state that it should be against Wikipedia policy to aggressively use Wikipedia rules to stifle argument, and then to retaliate by going after other submissions of people that argue against you is just plain wrong. That is not a good example of being a good Wikipedia editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Itsmeront (talk • contribs)

WP:FORUMSHOP. Also, anyone who wants to look at this deletion review or the AfD will clearly see that it is Itsmeront with the vendetta. If you look at the AfD here: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Nim_(programming_language) Itsmeront repeatedly insisted that slashdot was a reliable source, and that anyone who disagreed wasn't a programmer, here is one such diff where he did so. [15] Anyone who disagrees with Itsmeront must either be unqualified or bullying him. Anyone who shows him policies, consensus, guidelines, they all interfere too much for him, they must be wrong, or the person showing them to him is retaliating against him. ― Padenton|✉   21:26, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

This is exactly what he got called out for at Wikipedia talk:Notability after attempting to "filibuster" his POV that it's wrong and unfair to demand reliable independent sources to establish notability. Not one person in what is easily the most relevant forum for this question agreed with him. He also continues to make accusations of bad faith. I really wish he could learn to behave himself. I am very weary of this individual. Someone please close this. Msnicki (talk) 16:47, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Suggested Resolution by ItsMeRonT

I've reviewed some of the comments and work of both Padenton and Msnicki and I find their work to be in general quite useful. I wouldn't want to ban them or stop them from working on Wikipedia since volunteers that dedicate so much time are quite valuable.

I ask for the following:

• A sincere apology on my talk page from Padenton.
• A sincere apology to User_talk:Caroliano from Padenton
• That Padenton and Msnicki not be allowed to submit NIM for deletion or participate in the augment against it in the future.
• That Padenton have a warning placed on his account that he has been overly zealous submitting articles for deletion. And that if mass articles are submitted again he could face further sanctions.

I hope I've presented my case in a calm an thoughful way. Thank you for your consideration. Itsmeront (talk) 19:40, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Sigh. Once again: the Andreas Raab AfD wasn't in retaliation, you are not the center of my world, neither is the WP:MEMORIAL you made for your friend 2 days after his death. I don't apologize when I've done nothing wrong. Your inability to understand the notability policies after being informed of them several times and your clear vendetta against anyone who disagrees with you, do not deserve an apology. It is not my fault or problem that Nim and your friend Andreas Raab are both of questionable notability, and you can't just have people barred from an AfD because they disagree with you. ― Padenton|✉   20:59, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Timeline and Clarification

I was incorrect that the tagging of Raab was after the AfD Nim. I didn't notice it until 5/9 and assumed incorrectly (but justifyably) that it was retaliation by Msnicki. It is clear from this timeline that Msnicki is overzelous in her objection to articles, but since the tag on Raab was done on the same day as NIM before We had talked it was obviously not in response to the NIM incident. The same can not be said for Padenton, who has been extreemly overzelous in deleting articles without proper research, a number of which are now missing with no documentation on any process, and attacking people the disagree, including Caroliano, and myself. I am also modifying my suggested resolution.

Date .	Msnicki	Padenton	Caroliano	Itsmeront
26-Mar	Raab Tagged by Msnicki
26-Mar	Nim AfD by Msnicki
27-Mar			Caroliano joins Nim AfD
29-Mar		Padenton joins Nim AfD
29-Mar		Trustable Votes keep and cites other languages
31-Mar		Padenton AfD Picky
31-Mar		Padenton AfD Little Interpreted Language
31-Mar		Padenton AfD Seph
31-Mar		Padenton AfD Halide
31-Mar		Padenton AfD Roy
31-Mar		Padenton AfD Plaid
31-Mar		Padenton AfD Join-calculus
31-Mar		Padenton AfD Objeck
31-Mar		Padenton AfD Nemo
31-Mar		Padenton AfD OOC
31-Mar		Padenton AfD Cl4
31-Mar		? AfD Slave Programming Lanaguage
31-Mar		Padenton AfD PureScript
31-Mar		? AfD MCTRL
31-Mar		? AfD SmallScript
31-Mar		? AfD Wigzy
4-Apr		Padenton AfD Napier88
4-Apr		Padenton accuses Caroliano of Stalking for comment on Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Obol_(programming_language) 4/4 adds warning on Caroliano User_talk:Caroliano	Caroliano frantically responds on both
26-Apr		Ymblanter closes nim AfD
26-Apr	Ymblanter response to Msnicki "Sorry, I really hate when people blackmail me.
26-Apr	Msnicki Deletion Review NIM
3-May	RoySmith closes Nim Deletion Review
3-May	Msnicki complains to RoySmith
3-May	RoySmith responds to Msniki "I suggest you drop the WP:STICK and move on"
6-May				ItsMeRonT starts Wikipedia_talk:Notability#Suggest_WP:NSM_noteworthy_based_on_social_media
9-May				ItsMeRonT sees Msnicki tag on 5/9 and starts improving Raab article
11-May		Padenton AfD Raab
11-May				Ormr2014 suggests to ItsMeRonT to remove negative comments about Padenton and Msnicki from Raab AfD
11-May				ItsMeRonT opens Editor Assistance Request removes negative comments AfD
12-May				TransporterMan closes Editor Assistance Request and suggests Admin Incidents
13-May				ItsMeRonT opens Admin Incident 5/12

Itsmeront (talk) 01:13, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

My contributions to Emmanuel Lemelson and Lemelson Capital Management

Would appreciate your assistance. I have been an editor for a year and created the two articles above last year. I recently moved both to my sandbox so that I could make some modest improvements to both, including potentially restoring some content that was deleted for reasons largely unexplained and to potentially make other improvements, such as possibly adding new information in the year since I created both articles. Almost as soon as I moved both articles to my sandbox a few days ago, however, User:Smalljim began criticizing my involvement in the pages and saying that my contributions should be confined to the talk page. He has alleged that I have a conflict of interest, presumably because I dived into these two articles pretty aggressively and really have not had time yet to contribute much else. In reading Ignoring all rules--a beginner's guide and be bold, however, my approach seems permissible and encouraged. I have no conflict of interest and nothing about my edits has been unjustly critical or embellishing of the subject. In fact, despite review of both articles by multiple editors, the changes to my original drafts have been very modest and mostly cosmetic.

A lengthier exchange regarding all of this exists on my talk page. I am requesting that I be permitted to continue (time permitting) to make the modest modifications and additions to both articles in my sandbox and then, when I am comfortable that I've written them well and consistent with all guidelines, to move them live. I fully anticipate that my edits will be reviewed by others, and that's fine by me. I claim no ownership to the pages and am just looking to perfect what I believe to be two decent article contributions.

I first attempted to resolve this with User:Smalljim on my talk page. I guess we did not see eye to eye. I then referred it to DRN and COI. Neither of them felt it belonged on those pages.

Thanks very much for your attention and assistance. Orthodox2014 (talk) 22:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I looked at the DRN page and it seemed like the discussion was getting started. I don't know why the page was archived but I didn't see anyone saying that this was the wrong forum. Maybe @TransporterMan: can explain?

In general though, I think it is a bad idea to copy whole articles into your sandbox and replace the actual article with your new version of it. For one thing, other editors can make changes between the time you've copied the article and the time you replace it with your new version and while those edits would be recorded in the page history, they wouldn't exist in the article. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:33, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

The DRN thread was closed by TransporterMan, not because it was the wrong forum, but because it was filed manually, rather than using the template for the purpose. The editors can refile using the template, or can continue discussion at the conflict of interest noticeboard, but the discussion at COIN should be closed if DRN is started, to avoid conflicting discussions and forum shopping. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:45, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have 2 things to say on the matter, both of which aren't key to the actual issue.

Firstly, I felt it wasn't appropriate for WP:COIN because they said they didn't have a COI- so the issue didn't appear to be COI.

Secondly, when you report someone to noticeboards, you are obliged to inform them- in this instance, I informed User:Smalljim about this thread, and the other ones at DRN and COI too. Joseph2302 (talk) 22:35, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I did notify him on his talk page at 22:10, 12 May 2015, prior to your posting this. You must have missed it. Orthodox2014 (talk) 21:56, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I was drafting the following, but I see I've been pre-empted. Posting now without full check, so E&OE !  —SMALLJIM 

Emmanuel Lemelson is a hedge fund manager and, unexpectedly, also a Greek Orthodox priest. We have two articles: one on the person (EL), and one on his company, Lemelson Capital Management (LCM). Both have been extensively edited by Orthodox2014 (talk · contribs), whose only other edits have been to an AfD on the company, an AfD nomination of another fund manager, and a few edits to some related articles (example) and some other Greek Orthodox religious figures (example). This narrow focus has continued despite my suggestion in July last year that he could do something else to avoid the appearance of only being here to promote Lemelson.

In the two articles he has employed promotional wording designed to puff up the subjects (see this version for example), and has packed them with excessive references, on which he has been called out several times (see User_talk:Orthodox2014#Failed_verifications, Talk:Lemelson Capital Management, Talk:Emmanuel_Lemelson#Too_many_references and the LCM AfD). In July 2014 the LCM article was trimmed down to under 10kB in accordance with these opinions [16]. But on 8 Oct, after working on a pre-trimmed version in his sandbox, Orthodox2014 pumped it up again to 23kB with the edit summary "update new references/developments, remove a category", which in fact added only a little new info, and substantially reinstated the removed references.[17]

On 29 April this year, I got round to cleaning up both pages again – a task that had been on my back burner for some time. Soon after, Orthodox2014 started editing a copy of his last version of the EL article in his sandbox,[18] suggesting that he intended to replace the live version with his preferred version again. His response to my enquiry indicates a strong sense of ownership. This is not the behaviour of someone who has WP's best interest as his first priority.

Orthodox2014 has firmly stated that he does not have a COI. Four editors have expressed concerns that he does, as I set out on his talk page, and I think the minimum we need is a topic ban on these articles. He has at least recently expressed a willingness to edit some other articles.[19]  —SMALLJIM  22:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

• Perhaps this should have stayed at COIN. The heading for the noticeboard states This Conflict of interest/Noticeboard (COIN) page is for determining whether a specific editor has a conflict of interest (COI) for a specific article and whether an edit by a COIN-declared COI editor does not meet a requirement of the Conflict of Interest guideline . The question here is covered by the first part of that, whether the denial of COI by an editor who has only substantially worked on these two very closely related subjects should be accepted as settling the matter. DGG ( talk ) 23:15, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Coincidentally, DGG, in 2013 you deleted an earlier version of one of the pages. I don't suppose this could be connected?  —SMALLJIM  16:32, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

It was deleted as G5, Creation by a banned or blocked user (MooshiePorkFace or Morning277). I shall therefore not be restoring it. DGG ( talk ) 16:11, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

The question I meant to ask – sorry if it was unclear – is do you think this editor could be related to that paid editor farm.  —SMALLJIM  17:20, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I referred this incident to this page seeking assistance in resolving a dispute I have with User:Smalljim on the two pages referenced in this entry's heading. I am asking that he cease projecting ownership over not just these two articles but also my own sandbox, where I had begun work on some modest revisions to these two articles. His insistence that he has free range to edit both articles but my edits must be restricted to the talk pages is clearly a projection of such ownership and a policy violation. He also is violating good faith in projecting baseless, false allegations and additionally violating be bold in developing apparently his own editorial policy that new editors not be permitted to create articles (the policy of boldness suggests the exact opposite) and do not bite the newcomers in asserting his ownership, assuming bad faith, suggesting his edits hold more validity than my own, and in mass removing content and references (developed in full accordance with the citations guideline) without as much as an explanation. When he first complained that the articles had excessive references (never seen that as an editorial policy) a year ago, I even went back and reformatted all of them so they aesthetically appeared limited to three (as suggested in the citation guideline when more than three references are used in substantiating a fact).

I reiterate my initial request, which initiated this discussion, that I be permitted to continue working on both articles in my sandbox and then move over edits when I feel comfortable that my revisions are improvements and consistent with all policies and guidelines; I have not yet reached that point. I also ask that User:Smalljim be instructed to treat me and my page edits with the civility required. Orthodox2014 (talk) 19:41, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Removal of Russian names from Ukrainian articles

MykhayloNaumenko has been deleting Russian names from many Ukrainian articles, primarily involving the Luhansk Oblast. Targeted articles include Sievierodonetsk, Lysychansk, and the Luhansk Oblast article itself. [20] [21] [22] [23] [24]

I came across him when I noticed that the Russian name of Luhansk Oblast suddenly disappeared, and then I rv'd that when I found the diff.

He also has edit warred with Toddy1 for months over the Russian names being on enwiki. Ymblanter had blocked him for a day once for this. Hill Crest's WikiLaser! (BOOM!) 02:04, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Luhansk was affected too: [25] Hill Crest's WikiLaser! (BOOM!) 02:07, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

"Mykhaylo admits to be Ukrainian on his userpage." I didn't realize being Ukrainian was an offense one had to "admit to", but then I'm just a science geek. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:29, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

In the context of Ru-Uk war, a person starts erasing references to Russia in quite ridiculous ways, you suspect he is a Russia-hater, you check his user page and you see he is Ukrainian, you say "Gotcha!" someone is HOTHERE, naturally, the tongue slips: you identify ethnic hypernationalism which caused misbehavior with misbehavior itself. I forgot the name of the psychological phenomenon/logical blunder (something opposite to the halo effect, I believe). -M.Altenmann >t 06:10, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@Hillcrest98: Both articles have been subject to POV-pushing... and it cuts both ways. Toddy1 and I have a lot of articles covered for this form of naming convention warring, and MykhayloNaumenko is but one such user (who has also made a few constructive contributions). If blocking were intended to be punitive, I dare say most editors would be long, long gone. As for this latest round, it should have been taken to 3RR as being edit warring. After that, we know the cycle: if the user doesn't genuinely learn from AGF errors, leave it to being an enough rope issue as the user is displaying NOTHERE tendencies. As noted by SBHB above, however, you know that using a user's ethnicity is the bottom of the barrel of the personal attacks stakes. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:08, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree that at this moment a respected admin must try and convince this person that wikipedia is not a political battleground. It appears that this user was not engaged in any talk page discussions beyond template slapping. -M.Altenmann >t 06:26, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

That is because Toddy had reminded him many times and he didn't respond/listen. He didn't post on any talk pages except doing pagemoves. Hill Crest's WikiLaser! (BOOM!) 11:24, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I blocked that user for disruptive editing earlier this year. Since they claim their knowledge of English is en-0, I do not see what is the benefit of them editing English Wikipedia. We have enough Ukrainian power pushers here who at least speak some English.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:42, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment and question Is Russian an official language in those communities? I seem to remember reading Ukraine had made Ukrainian the only official language, or am I mistaken? If Russian is not official, it's not immediately obvious that it is vandalism to remove it. I understand that removing it can be a Ukrainian WP:POV and keeping it can be a Russian WP:POV, but as someone completely uninvolved, I don't necessarily see how one version is more POV-pushing than the other. Perhaps a more fruitful solution would be to have an established practice for the whole of Ukraine (personal view: Russian should be included in any municipality with a substantial Russian-speaking population, but that's a persona view and this is not the place for that discussion).Jeppiz (talk) 11:31, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

  This is indeed not vandalism but POV-pushing and edit warring (I think he overstepped 3RR on a couple of occasions). Since the population of these areas is exclusively Russian-speaking, the consensus is that names in two languages can be cited in the lede. Removals would need discussion, which the user was not interested in initiating.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:35, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Good day. I am Ukrainian. I removed Russian names not through RU-UA war! This is Ukrainian cities! I want in order the world to know that Ukraine is not Russian Federation. I understand your position. I will not to remove Russian names. Thank you for your consideration. P.S. Sorry for my English. --MykhayloNaumenko (talk) 15:38, 13 May 2015 (+3 UTC)

Unfortunately, there is a large bunch of recognized Russian-speakers around Donbass, who are quite influential in the region. Since these Russian-speakers form a notable part of Donbass' people, Russian names of their places are included. Hill Crest's WikiLaser! (BOOM!) 19:28, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• He is suspected of creating another account, maybe for a clean start attempt: User:Mychajlo Naumenko, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/MykhayloNaumenko. Hill Crest's WikiLaser! (BOOM!) 19:16, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
• What happens? This is my cousin: MykhayloNaumenko. He is not created another account. This account [Mychajlo Naumenko] is mine. -- Mychajlo Naumenko (Talk) 08:16, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• Just so you're not taken aback by it if it should come up at some point, please read WP:BROTHER ("Brother" in this case being "cousin") and WP:Meatpuppet. (Note: This is not an accusation.) BMK (talk) 23:41, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@Hillcrest98: Okay, now this is looking like an extremely cynical exercise, indeed. The missive you left me on your talk page indicates that this ANI is a piece of scapegoating for the sake of a principle, rather than taking a particularly egregious user to task. Seriously, the guy had backed off after reprimands from a number of editors (including myself) before you stepped in. Even if Mychajlo Naumenko has been identified as a duck, after the pummelling the user took without being given a chance to redeem himself, creating a new account in order to tidy up an article on a Ukrainian town in order to update information and remove unsourced and, frankly, redundant information is hardly the action of a POV and battleground warrior.

Frankly, everyone working on Eastern European articles is fed up with hard-line POV pushing from both sides, not just what you describe as being "the behaviour of anti-Russian and pro-Ukrainian POV pushers in general". If you're unaware of the extent of the battleground behaviour, here's a recent example amidst a huge list of POV warriors from the pro-Russian side. I'm not even going to start going through blatant POV diffs waving the 'Ukrainian and Western lies' banner across multiple articles. If regular editors to these articles (which you are not) were to indulge in your mentality of "I have strength to bite a newcomer.", this already overused and under-monitored board would be swamped. Biting is not something to be proud of, particularly when a new editor doesn't have a terribly high edit count. Even the most recalcitrant of new editors are given a chance to make mistakes, and good editors have emerged from their ranks. Please don't use this board for engaging in what is, essentially, no better than a personal attack just because you encountered this individual and want to push the boundaries of WP:HA#NOT, because I'm reading this as harassment on principle. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:05, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

• I will back off. Feel free to close. Hill Crest's WikiLaser! (BOOM!) 02:48, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Heavy sockpuppetry to sway AfD and repeted personal attacks

Yesterday I came across Margaret Varnell Clark as DMRRT, the WP:SPA behind the article added promotion for her self-published book to articles on my watch-list [26], [27], [28], [29]. I found no hint of notability beyond that enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of people who have publish something and launched an WP:AFD. Since then, DMRRT has tried a number of efforts to stop the AfD. First by trying to delete it [30]. Next by engaging heavily in the discussion in a very emotional way with a large number of claims, not one of which stood up to scrutiny (this alleged "world leading researcher" has virtually no cites on Google Scholar, and no verifiable notability has been established.) The only other long-term user who commented on the Afd (at the demand of the SPA [31] also recommended delete [32]. Having tried to delete the AfD, appeal to emotions, launch personal attacks against me [33], the next step is now some very obvious sockpuppetry (either through direct socks or meatsocks) as the AfD has been joined by two "new" users. One is another WP:SPA-account that had not been active for one year [34], and then a new account whose only activity is to comment on the AfD [35]. The duckiest of ducks in a long time. I've tried to explain and show to DMRRT how to show that an academic really is notable [36] but the DMRRT just continues in the same way, which raises both WP:HEAR and WP:COMPETENCE issues. This is starting to turn a bit ugly and has implications beyond the AfD, so some admin input would be helpful.Jeppiz (talk) 11:13, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: Apart from your accusations of puppetry this seems like a pretty run of the mill WP:VANISPAMCRUFTISEMENT AfD. May I suggest you file a Sockpuppetry report so that this can be investigated? Twinkle makes this simple to do.

I am not an admin, but I can't quite see what you wish admins to achieve here. Fiddle Faddle 12:02, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

You may be right, @Timtrent:. It was the additional WP:NPA (though pretty mild) but mostly the rather strong WP:COMPETENCE and WP:NOTHERE that made me come to ANI. Had it been just the socking, I would have filed a report.Jeppiz (talk) 12:10, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I did file a sockpuppetry report, but not holding my breath. Reports from April are still not even discussed [37]. Wikipedia is really starting to have a massive problem with these backlogs building up everywhere.Jeppiz (talk) 13:13, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
  • It looks like there are two reports open at the same time: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/ DMRRT and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/DMRRT. The first report has an extra space in the title. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:40, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Oops. I didn't know there was already one and that I had made a mess of the title. Have asked for my one to be redirected to Jezzip's. Cowlibob (talk) 16:05, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Another new user has somehow stumbled upon this AFD [38]. Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:50, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment The situation is getting unpleasant. The actual AfD looks simple enough, all 10 established users who have commented have said delete. At the same time, the situation that brought me to AN/I yesterday is escalating Even though I no longer take part, there is now an orchestrated WP:SPA (and likely WP:SOCK or WP:MEAT) campaign that largely consists of discussions about me. I already signalled in the diffs above how DMRRT had been joined by two new SPA-accounts (RCP110 and Literarydiva). Since then both those SPA accounts have returned, and been joined by a third, M0302. whose very first sentence on Wiki is to insist they aren't a sock. All three have a go at me and my "ego" [39], [40], [41]. As the diffs show, all three also refer to DMRRT just as "DM", and all four of them (DMRRT and the three others) consistently call me she. I've never revealed my gender on Wikipedia. Quite apart from the effort to sway the AfD, this orchestrated attack on me is not pleasant. I make no claim to being perfect, and I probably should just have nominated the AfD and not discussed it (I've since left it and no longer interact with the users to avoid escalations), but all these rants about my "ego" are disproportionate.Jeppiz (talk) 16:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• It seems to me that the closure of the AfD as deletion has removed any need to continue this discussion, one I think was probably better suited to other venues anyway. There is already an SPI which will run its course. The behaviour of the claque of new editors is the behaviour of a claque. May I suggest that those with hurt feelings simply treat it as 'one of those annoying things that happen from time to time' and that a passing friendly person closes this as, requiring, probably, no further action? Fiddle Faddle 07:47, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Edit war about personal attack

I removed a WP:NPA violation from Talk:Honor Harrington.[42] I admit that I was the victim of the attack, and therefore not the most uninvolved party, but I still though (and think) it was a real WP:NPA violation. The editor who posted it, User:Scjessey, then removed my previous edit, childishly and incorrectly claiming it was also a WP:NPA violation,[43] and when I undid that,[44] he undid my preceding edit.[45] Note that in between, I warned him on his talkpage to stop his childish behavior.[46] Please note that he has since removed that post from his talkpage, and has posted a derisive comment about it on mine. [47]

I'd appreciate your opinions either way. Meaning that if I am exaggerating, and Scjessey's comment is not such as can be removed as a WP:NPA violation, I will desist. Or if it is, then please tell Scjessey so, and he should desist. Debresser (talk) 22:17, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

That was really rude, I can't fault you for removing it, Debresser. Also, Scjessey's retaliation here was pretty childish (note the edit summary). I haven't gone back in the history of your mutual irritation, but from the recent exchange, certainly Scjessey is more at fault. Nevertheless, on the principle Wikipedia:There is no justice, I suggest the best thing would be for both of you to stay away from Talk:Honor Harrington for at least the next 24 hours, and from each other's talkpages for the foreseeable future. Bishonen | talk 22:51, 13 May 2015 (UTC).

The really stupid thing about all this is that I had stepped away from that article, but Debresser kept on poking me with a stick, such as reverting or commenting after two days of silence. If he'd just left me alone, this would've petered out over a week ago. I admit the comment you flagged was rude, but this guy has been all up in my face for days and days and it needed to be said. Debresser, like me, is an experienced editor, but his attitude at that article was amateurish and smacked of ownership. For example, he rejected my idea of an RfC over a content dispute, despite the fact editors were evenly split and deadlocked. Where's the logic in that? Anyway, you can only get a sense of his behavior if you look at the editing history over a couple of weeks, but if I were you I wouldn't bother myself. It's a NothingBurger. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:29, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

The attitude of Scjessey both here and on his talkpage[48] remains that I behaved badly and that he was just provoked into bad behavior by me. That attitude does not imbue me with much confidence as to his future editing. Debresser (talk) 21:32, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Sirswindon, Rinaldo Paluzzi and Abstract expressionism

• Sirswindon (talk · contribs)
• Rinaldo Paluzzi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Abstract expressionism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This has been going on for over a month, and can be embroidered with dozens of diffs, of which a few would suffice. Mostly a perusal of edits at Abstract expressionism and its talk page will tell the story: Sirswindon edit warred to include Paluzzi in the article on Abstract expressionism. Once consensus went against him, he took to its talk page to argue over the inclusion of numerous artists, most of whose affiliations with Ae are easily documented, if not always included in Wiki articles. There are, as far as I can tell, no published sources supporting Paluzzi's connection, formally or stylistically, to Ae, but the WP:POINTY continues. See [49], [50], [51], [52], then removal of argument [53] before starting anew [54] and targeting other bios [55], [56], and returning to Ae [57], lobbying other editors [58], [59], [60], [61], [62], (restoring this awful tripe along the way) [63], removing the cite template without providing the source [64], and reacting now by returning to Ae and moving to other bios, misappropriating my edits as rationale [65], [66], [67], [68], [69], [70]. I've tried to be selective in offering diffs here (!); in the end, this is all about being challenged on the Paluzzi attribution, and declaring to do a spring cleaning as retribution. JNW (talk) 02:12, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

JNW I accept your caution and will attempt to find a reference to his his work being stylistically similar to the Abstract Expressionists. Sirswindon (talk) 02:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

To administrators: I've only included diffs to some of Sirswindon's edits. Up to two weeks ago I was still attempting to respond in good faith [71], [72], [73], [74]; please see the last two sections here, which I eventually removed after concluding that the user's motives had not changed [75]. JNW (talk) 02:57, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

It is common for editors who are fans of notable but "mid-tier" artists to try to promote them by including them in articles about genres and art movements. These articles should only include the most famous and iconic representatives of those genres. So please desist, Sirswindon. That being said, this seems to be a garden variety content dispute, and I see no need for use of the administrator's toolkit at this time. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:12, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• I don't know, Cullen--I think this is a bit more. These diffs indicate a fairly large number of potentially disruptive edits, and this is really quite pointy. This goes back at least to April on Talk:Abstract expressionism, and it seems that little headway is made (in terms of a proven understanding of RS, etc.--though in April already Sirswindon said, "Modernist, I do apologize, if the future I will do as you have suggested", which sounds a lot like the comment above. (And they should be glad they didn't run into Postmodernist, who has no mercy since they don't believe in values anymore.)

  Anyways, if we take Sirswindon at their word, that they will find a reliable reference, and if they were to add "and in the meantime I will not make the kind of edits that proved quite disruptive in article space and on the various talk pages", then no admin action is necessary. But, Sirswindon, barring that, an admin may take action since, as far as I can tell, you are just taking up too much valuable time with rather interminable discussions and forum posts. Really, don't cite the dean of any department. Drmies (talk) 03:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

This looks like a content dispute that is being complicated by commenting on contributors rather than on content, but is basically a content dispute. It appears that it might benefit from moderated discussion at the dispute resolution noticeboard. Are the parties willing to close this thread and take it to DRN? If the discussion there gets into too much commenting on contributors, it will be closed and may have to come back here. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:00, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I think Drmies gets that this is something other than a standard content dispute, enriched by some gentle aspersions--I've included diffs to that end. The user in question periodically backs off, then continues disruptive behavior for not getting what they want. As might be guessed, I've come here rather than dispute resolution for a reason--I've many times in the last decade removed inappropriate or unsubstantiated names from lists, and this represents an unusual persistence, with a side of retribution. Perhaps nothing here is deemed actionable, but Drmies is correct in noting the great amount of time and energy this has already wasted on several arts pages. My thanks for that. JNW (talk) 19:53, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Sirswindon has left this page to discuss this with the above administrators. Here's the relevant section at Drmie's page [76]. JNW (talk) 00:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't like having content disputes, and this is a content dispute, decided at ANI. However, if two editors both won't agree to moderated dispute resolution, I have to advocate blocking someone. Should the administrators here block User:JNW or User:Sirswindron or both of them, or just decide it later? (I really think that DRN would work, but not if the editors dislike each other that much. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:16, 15 May 2015 (UTC)) I suggest some sort of closure now, but I am not involved. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:16, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm truly dumbstruck; by all means flip a coin and block me. JNW (talk) 03:39, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh, my, well anyway, sometimes things just work out the way they should. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:16, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Sandy, thank you for your note here. I didn't realize that the blocking comment was made by someone who is not an administrator; the less I say about it, the better. All the same, that there's any ambiguity as to the circumstances confirms my conclusion of years past, that this isn't the place for me. JNW (talk) 13:41, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

No one needs to be blocked, this thread should be closed. Artists are included in that section of the article if their work is widely known, if reliable sources can be found, if they influenced and/or affected American Abstract expressionism. That section of the article contains artists from all over the world whose works were seen in NY or California during the 40s, 50s and 60s and whose works affected and/or influenced that movement. Which is why Wols and Zao Wou-Ki are included. The artist Rinaldo Paluzzi that the above editor wants included in the article simply was not known in the USA during that historical period, nor was the other Romanian artist Romul Nuțiu that this editor also wants to include known in the USA during that historical period. It's time for this editor to drop the stick and let it go - or find reliable sources for those 2 artists inclusion...Modernist (talk) 11:20, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

FWIW many European and Asian artists working in similar styles to American abstract expressionism are included in the Tachisme article, which is the European equivalent to Abstract expressionism during the 40s, 50s and 60s. Some artists appear in both articles because their work was widely viewed on both continents or they lived and worked on both continents during that era...Modernist (talk) 12:59, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

History merge needed

Resolved

Fusionem, a relatively inexperienced editor has recently carried out a cut-and-paste move by copying content from Minor characters in Universal Monsters,[77] to List of Universal Monsters characters,[78] and then expanding the new article.[79] Would an admin with a few minutes to spare be able to carry out a history merge on List of Universal Monsters characters to fix the problem cause by the cut-and-paste move, please? --AussieLegend (✉) 13:28, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I got your message. I passed the table to List of Universal Monsters characters so user could pay more attention, but this user has been rewriting the characters table back to the previous state, which I know it's very repetitive in some cases. I could pass your message to this guy..., if you let me, or I'll leave it to you. Its name is Rreemmett.Fusionem (talk) 21:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)User:Fusionem

I've performed the history merge and moved the talk page. Graham87 12:38, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Repeated misrepresentation and uncivility by JzG

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I wish to raise a complaint about repeated misrepresentation of my postings and uncivility toward me by JzG.

JzG made a posting to which I posed a question - the posting and question can be seen here.[80] JzG then posted "@DrChrissy: You have accused me of racism. Some editors would call that a personal attack and report it. Me, I think it's just cluelessness on your part. I really don't think you know very much about this subject, given the naive questions you are asking."[81] This clearly misrepresents my posting. I posed a question - I did not accuse them of racism. Furthermore, JzG's comment is a personal attack about my knowledge of the subject. JzG also said(same diff) "No need to apologise, anyone can make a mistake, but next time perhaps ask rather than flying off the handle?" This further misrepresents my editing as I had posed a question. It also states I made a mistake when I had not. Here[82] I indicated to JzG that I felt their posting was a misrepresentation and requested them to strike the offending comment. JzG then posted "You accuse me of racism, in two venues,..."[83] I repeated my request that JzG should strike their comment.[84]

Here[85] JzG questioned my competence. I replied here[86] stating this was uncivil and requested them to strike their comments. JzG replied with a posting[87] which included "I pointed out the by now obvious fact that you lack an understanding of the medical literature in general. Again, this is a refusal to strike the offending comment, with a further personal attack.

I reminded JzG on their talk page[88] that I had made two requests to strike comments. Their reply included "Says the person who accused me of racism (in two separate venues)..." and "I believe you lack WP:COMPETENCE in this area." Again, this seriously misrepresents my postings and is also a further personal attack. DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:11, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Topic ban for DrChrissy

If people look at Talk:Acupuncture#Please leave comments below, you will see that many believe that DrChrissy is incompetent in terms of his evaluation of sources. We were considering going to Arbitration Enforcement to request a topic ban relative to CAM articles, but I'd be just as happy to get one from ANI.—Kww(talk) 15:18, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

DrChrissy, do you want a series of diffs here to show you why people think you lack competence in this area? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:23, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

@Kww That thread is less than 6 hrs old, and I would not call 5 "many".DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:27, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

@ NeilN Thank you for offering diffs showing why people think I am incompetent. I will politely decline at this time. However, if you have diffs showing that 'I am incompetent, I would be interested to see these.DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:31, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Comment Would all other editors considering calling me incompetent please think about this. If I am incompetent, does this mean JzG is allowed to be uncivil to me and misrepresent my postings? I think not.DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:34, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

DrChrissy i hope your deletion of my comment was inadvertent. restoring it: you actually wrote "Wow! Is this racist?" (and even linked to it) in response to a statement of a well-documented fact about Chinese publications on TCM and acupuncture, and you are here claiming personal attacks against you. oy. Jytdog (talk) 15:37, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

It was totally inadvertent - I got caught up in an edit conflict.DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:40, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

for pete's sake, you also deleted a comment by olive Jytdog (talk) 15:40, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

The environment on Acupuncture is complex and vitriolic. Topic banning one editor is a simplistic and unfair solution to what has gone on there. I suggest that anyone who wants to make clueful decisions read more than the thread/opinions of the editors who want to remove that editor. By the way if we want to start banning editors because we consider them incompetent, we can sanction a big percentage of WP. Editors have to learn and we all continue to learn here every time we edit. We do that with the help of other editors. (I have made a few cmts on the article but have not edited as far as I can remember this article, and left because of the quality of the environment and discussion there.)(Littleolive oil (talk) 15:35, 14 May 2015 (UTC))

what a mess. Jytdog (talk) 15:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

DrChrissy makes useful contributions to articles on animal behavior. But when he turns to alternative medicine his histrionic, self-righteous and uncooperative approach is distinctly unhelpful in an area that already is prone to conflict. (Diffs to follow.) A topic ban is overdue. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:48, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

@Short Brigade Harvester Boris: No, his edits on animal behavior also show a competence issue. At coprophagia, he dumped in a whole boatload of text lifted from rabbit-- text that was often off-topic to that article, unnecessary, and covered by a link to rabbit,[89] and which I had to trim. [90] I am not familiar with his other editing, but I would not say he shows competence in editing around animal behavior topics. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:11, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply This is a content issue, not competence. Please look at my User page to see the number of animal behaviour articles I have started and contributed to.DrChrissy ^(talk) 09:16, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I missed this post earlier. The competence issue is that an experienced editor should know how to use Wikilinks on Wikipedia. We don't unnecessarily duplicate content across articles. That you excerpted a huge chunk of the rabbit article to coprophagia-- when all that was needed from rabbit was text sufficient to explain that a normal rabbit behavior is they eat their own poop-- is a competence issue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:59, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. The edits looked OK to me, but admittedly I'm out of my element regarding that topic. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:54, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

@User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris You stated that my approach was "histrionic, self-righteous and uncooperative..." and further said "(Diffs to follow)". Please provide these diffs so that I can rebutt them, otherwise, please strike your comment.DrChrissy ^(talk) 13:31, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Let me help out here, as I have until now not taken a position on whether you should be topic banned, since I haven't experienced the particular suite of articles where these issues arise, but am watching this unfold.

You provide an example right here in this discussion.

After Bishonen makes this perfectly helpful and neutrally worded post, you respond with: "I'm sure the admins will note the tone you used." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:45, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, exactly stuff like that... In another context I'd probably write off Chrissy as a tone troll. Zad68 13:49, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure why the two postings above have been placed there, but I made my reply about Bishonen's comment here.[91] — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrChrissy (talk • contribs) 15:02, May 15, 2015

So. Having not had the pleasure before this ANI discussion, I am seeing the issues right here, courtesy of you. You are "not exactly sure why the two postings above have been placed here", when a direct question was answered with a direct example. And then you fracture the discussion with ... another diff that shows even more of the very same behavior.

If you engage in this kind of obtuse IDHT behavior on article talk, it must be a most frustrating time sink, that would try the patience of the sane among us. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:13, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Per DrChrissy's request. This is the guideline (WP:MEDDATE) you were quoting for these removals: "Look for reviews published in the last five years or so, with newer being better. The range of reviews you examine should be wide enough to catch at least one full review cycle, containing newer reviews written and published in the light of older ones and of more-recent primary studies."

• Not a review
• Not a review
• Not a review
• Not a review
• Not a review
• Not a review
• Clumsy reading of source (see Talk:Acupuncture#.22Western_Medical_Acupuncture.22)
• Google hits? Really?

--NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:50, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply Ahhhhhh! I have only just seen what the issue is here. It is the removal of non-review material older than 5 yrs old. I interpreted the word "review" in this guideline with a broader perspective. Most scientific papers contain a review of the literature and I thought the guidelines were referring to this. If I was mis-interpreting this, why was I not told at the time? that would have been the collegiate approach.DrChrissy ^(talk) 09:28, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Your explanation doesn't wash. Most references you removed weren't scientific papers. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 11:41, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Based on this, and the persistent misunderstanding or misapplication of WP:MEDRS, would the appropriate topic-ban scope to consider be just alt-med or (human) biomedical content in general? An inability to understand and apply the WP:MEDRS sourcing guideline in general (as opposed to only in the alt-med area) should indicate a commensurate scope for a topic ban. Zad68 15:54, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree that it's a good time to discuss a topic ban for DrChrissy, based on tendentiousness and an apparent lack of WP:COMPETENCE in this area. DrChrissy has accused me of racism (in two separate venues) for stating that Chinese studies produce only positive results, proposed Dean Radin's Explore journal as a reliable source and then characterised rejection of it as an attempt to mislead others as to the criteria by which we judge sources. I struggle to think of any criteria by which Explore would be considered a relaibel source for an article on a medical subject.

The problem here is that DrChrissy, who seems to me to be a very knowledgeable editor on the subject of wildfowl, has chosen to pile in to an article whose content is considered contentious by some believers in acupuncture, in that it follows the scientific consensus view rather than the philosophical view founded on vitalism and "other ways of knowing". This happens all the time. What DrChrissy has done, though, is to conduct a dumpster dive through the positive literature, drop a whole bunch of low-quality sources on the talk page with no proposed edits based on them, and then accuse all and sundry of bias and malfeasance when the nebulously proposed sources are rejected.

Instead of picking one or two that might be defensible and proposing edits based on them, DrChrissy has adopted exactly the all-or-nothing approach of which he accuses the reality-based editors, and assumes that every source proposed is equally valid and every objection equally invalid - and the mere existence on this list of a paper published in Explore (SNIP: 0.613; SJR: 0.307; Impact Factor: 0.935) is sufficient to refute that claim in its entirety. Guy (Help!) 15:54, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

@JzG Do you not have a single word to say to defend your uncivility toward me?DrChrissy ^(talk) 16:03, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Guy (Help!) 16:41, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I see no evidence that JzG has been uncivil, DrChrissy. I only see accurate descriptions of your editing and behaviour.—Kww(talk) 16:45, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

(multiple ec) DrChrissy is shopping for a WP:BOOMERANG, by loudly demonstrating his dedicated, enthusiastic, unapologetic, and incorrigible lack of WP:COMPETENCE. I don't know if he's going to get a topic ban from complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) pages from this noticeboard, or if it's going to take an AE filing, but that seems to be the path he's chosen for himself.

Conveniently, DrChrissy has helpfully and proudly summarized his most recent campaign of disruptive IDHT and POINTy (mis)conduct at Talk:Acupuncture, with this edit. Over the course of two or three days, DrChrissy created at least eight new sections on the article talk page; each time, he provided just a URL and a demand for other editors to tell him if the source was "reliable for inclusion in the article", or declaring that a particular link "seems to be reliable for inclusion in the article". Despite multiple pleas from other editors, DrChrissy repeatedly refused to indicate how he proposed using any of the sources, or which statements he might wish to support with them. (You can find the ensuing discussions in the five consecutive threads start with Talk:Acupuncture#Is this a reliable source? and the three consecutive threads starting at Talk:Acupuncture#Reliable source (i). DrChrissy has explicitly admitted that he actually had not read some of the papers and publications that he presented ([92]); I fear he hasn't gotten past the abstract of most or all of them.

While Littleolive oil is correct that we should make allowances for new editors and encourage them to learn about our policies and practices, the patience to educate and tolerate (purportedly unintentional) disruption is not limitless. DrChrissy has demonstrated a stubborn refusal to learn from his experiences so far, and allowing continued disruption seems unlikely to be of benefit to the project.

The whole bit about DrChrissy suggesting that JzG was racist (or was making racist remarks) is part an parcel of a much larger pattern of disruption. This AN/I filing by DrChrissy is just a (poorly-played) attempt at point-scoring to try to punish one of the many editors who have persistently pointed out the problems with his own use of talk pages. DrChrissy's I-was-just-asking-questions excuse is very weak tea, and again he doesn't help his case to draw attention to his own behavior. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:59, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply Tenofalltrades, you use rather emotive and careless language. First, I did not "demand" anything, rather, I posted a question about the suitability of sources. Any one of the editors that replied could simply have walked away. No editor was under any obligation to comment. Secondly, you stated "DrChrissy has explicitly admitted that he actually had not read some of the papers and publications that he presented." This is misleading. In fact, what I wrote was "The answer is No, I have not yet read the full article."[93] (My emphasis on "full") I only had access to the abstract which is partly why I asked the question "Is it suitable?" I am aware that other editors have different levels of literature access and I was hoping, in a collegiate way, that another editor would be able to help me develop the article. Please note, I did not attempt to enter content into the article. I was using the Talk page for what they are intended - discussion about the content of the article.DrChrissy ^(talk) 09:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

User:DrChrissy, your orignal comment "Wow! Is this racist?" looks very much like a rhetorical question. I'm not surprised that User Talk:JzG saw it as an accusation. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 16:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

And the irony here is that I did not complain about it, I stated that I understood why he might make such an accusation, being ignorant of the field, and the response was to accuse me of incivility. Passive-aggressive, stubborn and thin-skinned are not a good combination... Guy (Help!) 16:44, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Based on what I have been able to discern from a rather messy series of disagreements, I'd say that a BOOMERANG is rapidly approaching. A topic ban seems to be a reasonable response to a tendentious editor and abuse of process. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:30, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply I'm sure the admins looking at this will be aware that it is the quality of comments that are taken into consideration, not the quantity. Diffs would have helped your comment, otherwise, I'm afraid it reads as if you have simply looked at other editors' comments and perhaps joined a band-wagon.DrChrissy ^(talk) 09:59, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Comment: Crissy has a history of complaining that other editors are attacking him during normal discussion, and his editing at times appears to be pointy. On May 8th, NeilN opened discussion of some edits on the article, wherein he said there were "clumsy changes to the lead". Neil's next edit, 8 minutes later, removed the comment. Crissy accused Neil of attacking him, and then went on to complain that Neil had removed the attack without permission. When I approached Crissy about it, he reiterated that his concern was Neil removing (Neil's own) content from the talk page. If Crissy truly felt the comment was a personal attack directed at him, then his objection to it being removed is nothing short of pointy; he doesn't appear to want to act collegially, but instead accuse his "opponents" of treating him unfairly so he can "win" disputes.

He also fails to listen to others and engages in behavior he's been told is disruptive. On May 9th, he created 5 sections asking if a source was "reliable" without providing any content. He has been informed repeatedly by at least 7 editors that his question couldn't be answered without content. ( [94], [95], [96], [97], [98], [99], [100], [101], [102])

Yet, he refused to provide any, and on May 11th he posted several new sections with the very same question. He was corrected again, but ignored the complaints, saying he was being bullied, and didn't have to comply. He posted a new section with the same problem that evening. On the 12th, he admitted he wasn't even reading the sources he's proposing. After these repeated, incessant requests that Crissy provide content proposals alongside a source, he posted a new section today, wherein he complained other editors were being unfair, and said "However, it appears that some editors dismiss or criticise entire sources without knowing the context of any content to be added." I can't interpret this as anything but Crissy intentionally refusing to provide a content proposal so that he could later complain that editors were shooting down his sources without knowing the content it was to back up.

DrCrissy is not here to collaborate with others on alt med, or he is unable to. He should be topic banned from alt med, so he can focus on contributions to less contentious topics.   — Jess· Δ♥ 16:37, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Note I refactored my own post [103] because I saw Zad68 open a new thread on the same topic [104], probably not seeing mine yet. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, both edits were relatively uncontroversial in my mind. However, that Crissy complained both about your edit, and about your removal of your edit, indicates to me that he is attempting to score points for "abuse", rather than work collaboratively to solve problems.   — Jess· Δ♥ 16:57, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply

Re: The edit by NeilN. I made the reversion as per WP:TPG which states "Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning..." It appeared to me that NeilN did precisely that to cover-up their personal attack in the thread heading.

Re: My requests about suitability of potential sources. I suggested several potential sources to the Talk page to ascertain their suitability for inclusion in the article. I placed them in separate sections so that editors could make comments about each individual source without the discussion becoming confused. It appears this has irritated some editors. Apologies for causing this irritation - it will not hapen again. The practice of putting up sources for discussion about suitability is common on many article Talk pages. Editors on the page were informed of this by another editor here.[105]

Re: Confused feedback Despite Jess' stating that source suitability can only be judged in context (which I agree with), the article has a history of entire journals being dismissed irrespective of context. To save time in creating article content only to have this reverted because a journal was unacceptable for unforeseen reasons, I chose to put the sources up for discussion. Several of these were dismissed because the entire journal was considered unacceptable, despite there being no context. This is totally confusing for editors. I summarised this concern and others about acceptance/rejection of sources here[106] in a way to offer collegiate discussion about how the article can be improved.

Re: Reading the sources. You stated "...admitted he wasn't even reading the sources he's proposing". You are the second editor who appears to be trying to mislead the admins. I wrote " The answer is No, I have not yet read the full article."[107] Please see my further comments to the other editor above.

Re: Collaboration. You stated "DrCrissy is not here to collaborate with others on alt med..." Please see the following diffs as examples of my collaboration within and outwith this article in alt med.[108] Talk:Acupuncture#A few sentences Talk:Acupuncture#German acupuncture trials my edits on Veterinary acupuncture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrChrissy (talk • contribs)

The only one seeing my post as a personal attack is you (which is part the problems discussed here). And please stop inserting your replies before existing replies. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 12:23, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban on alt.med topics after looking at other contribs I am changing this to all biomedical content, widely construed. User is not here to work collaboratively and does not seem to understand, or is not willing to understand, our guidelines. Dbrodbeck (talk) 16:48, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support action, either the proposed topic ban or broader sanctions such as a general ban or block. WP:COMPETENCE issues, PLUS bad attitude, PLUS allegations against another editor, PLUS apparent general lack of ability to work collaboratively (see this response to a reasonable question) AND all this is happening in a sensitive topic area with medical considerations where a cool head and ability to work with others is even more important than usual? Wow. Just wow. Not sure a simple narrow topic ban is going to suffice here as per SandyGeorgia there appear to be issues outside the altmed topic area too. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 17:57, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply It is grossly misleading to have taken that one diff out of context. At the time, I was receiving a barrage of demands to provide the context in which potential sources might be used. The editors had no right to demand that. Furthermore, the tone of some editors was extremely unpleasant, e.g. "Your refusal to provide context when requested is very uncollaborative. If you do this again, anyone here would be correct to collapse your request as a talk page violation until you provide context."[109] As I have indicated above to another editor, the administrators will be looking at the quality of postings, not the quantity. Unfortunately, you did not provide diffs to your competence, attitude, allegations, collaboration concerns. Therefore, your vote is unsupported.DrChrissy ^(talk) 13:53, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban for all biomedical topics. In the encounters I've had with this editor the competence issues have been compounded with an extremely combative approach which leads to nothing but wasted time. Reviewing his edits I also have concerns about COI-tainted editing/advocacy -- though of course Wikipedia being as it is I cannot reveal the nature of this publicly as it woud entail WP:OUTING. Alexbrn (talk) 18:00, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Alexbrn Per WP:ASPERSIONS You might want to strike that last sentence since you cant prove it. AlbinoFerret 19:07, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I can certainly prove I have concerns, and would be happy to forward relevant material to an arbitrator or other appropriate party if necessary. Alexbrn (talk) 19:18, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

The thing is, in this public talk page it cant be proved. Uless you can prove it here, then the claim is an assperation. If you think there is a problem take it to the appropriate place. Since you cant prove it here, its against WP:ASPERSIONS. AlbinoFerret 19:40, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I think you'll find the need not to out people takes priority. Alexbrn (talk) 19:45, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

That is the reason you should strike it. If you have a claim you cant prove in public, take it to the arbcom mailing list. This is not the place to cast aspirations you cant prove in public. AlbinoFerret 19:52, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Very naughty Alexbrn...I have absolutuely no COI. Please strike your comments and a posted apology would be much appreciated.DrChrissy ^(talk) 19:49, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

@User talk:Alexbrn please strike your message regarding COI editing.DrChrissy ^(talk) 08:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban per every word by LittleOliveOil above. petrarchan47คุก 18:54, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban for all controversial medical topics. If you check the edit history funny things were happening to the lede because of DrChrissy. The evidence presented by other editors is overwhelming. This is a waste of time. QuackGuru (talk) 19:00, 14 May 2015 (UTC

ReplyYour link is to a content discussion. This does not support your vote.

• Oppose topic ban (uninvolved non admin) At the heart this is a content dispute on a contentious article. Removing DrChrissy would remove an editor that has a different viewpoint than the editors of the article calling for the ban. Articles are always better when they have multiple viewpoints. AlbinoFerret 19:12, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
  • This isn't always true, sometimes the unproductive behavior of an editor can waste so much time or interfere with consensus-building that article quality will suffer while Talk page discussions get sidetracked. This can happen no matter what the editor's viewpoint is. Zad68 19:24, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
    • Also AlbinoFerret you describe yourself as "uninvolved," but just in the past 3 months, you and JzG were involved together in an ARBCOM case request here, you and DrChrissy !voted together against JzG at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Conflict of Interest ducks; you, DrChrissy and JzG all commented in the discussion here User_talk:Atsme/Archive_9#Discretionary_sanctions_notification_-_CAM. Also a bit earlier than that, you, myself, QuackGuru, Jytdog and Formerly 98 all edited at Electronic cigarette, before you took a voluntary topic-ban. You may not have been editing at Acupuncture in particular but you appear to have have recent history with DrChrissy and JzG, plus many editors in this discussion. Zad68 20:07, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I have nothing for or against any of the editors involved in this discussion and I am uninvolved with the article this took place on. I consider myself uninvolved. AlbinoFerret 20:12, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Any uninvolved editor closing this discussion would do well to read through the diffs I provided first. Zad68 20:17, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

The link, comment on Atsme's page is in response to a joke she made, I was watching here page because of the article essay we were working on and saw the post. This section isnt about Atsme though, and I did not address anything of substance or interact with any of the posters in that section other than Atsme's joke. as for the diff to the long ago arbcom case, I dont remember mentioning JzG. AlbinoFerret 20:21, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• • Also, per WP:FRINGE, there's lots of articles which would not be better if they had multiple viewpoints. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:27, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban: Per olive and AlbinoFerret. DrChrissy can be many of the things mentioned here, and I have had conflicts with this editor, but on the other hand, I think this editor does a good job of raising the right questions to be asked in any area. It may be unconfortable, but I have seen this editor able to drop the stick when treated with civility and respect. DrChrissy IS capable of collaboration and cooperation. In contrast, some of the folks here asking for a topic ban (not all) are often quick to go from zero to vicious attack at the slightest hint that their viewpoint is being challenged. The comments about toxic environment are well taken and I think it is important that opposing views not be suppressed. My thought is to focus on behavior only on a case-by-case basis and perhaps instead institute a 1RR restriction on copyedits across the board. Also, perhaps all of these articles should have EVERYONE restricted to two comments at talk per topic, one statement and one reply/rebuttal. This crowd takes no prisoners, it seems, and someone needs to ratchet it down a bit. Montanabw^(talk) 19:32, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
  • DrChrissy did not understand at the time that the text was blatant SYN/OR. See WP:CIR. AlbinoFerret thinks this is a content dispute? Whaat? QuackGuru (talk) 19:34, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Montanabw that really seems like poor judgment. You're saying DrChrissy is capable of collaboration and cooperation. But DrChrissy is pretty clearly not demonstrating that skill here. Isn't that exactly the kind of situation that calls for a topic ban? Have you looked through the diffs? Zad68 19:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
    • • Zad68, trust me, I've had disputes with DrChrissy, but I don't think their behavior rises to the level of getting out the pitchforks and torches. I have to say that the hardcore anti-pseudoscience crowd is VERY difficult - there is only one right answer and it's theirs. There is no room for questions, discussion or debate. Disagreement with them means you can only be an Evil reptilian kitten-eater from another planet who is a homopath and wears a tinfoil helmet. I really think that we need to consider the source and look at this page - dozens of comments, multiple times from certain parties, it is a bully-fest of epic proportions.

@QG At the heart it is a content dispute, its an argument over sources. I also noticed when asked to show what OR you were referring to , you didnt. AlbinoFerret 19:46, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• @AlbinoFerrett: The content of your comment above shows precisely why you are involved, and not a neutral party. BMK (talk) 22:02, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I previously explained that the text was OR. This was WP:IDHTing behaviour. QuackGuru (talk) 19:52, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

User:AlbinoFerret, you previously wrote "I think I want to add another article to my list of ones I want to edit, perhaps acupuncture would be nice." Did your acupuncture comment threaten to WP:HOUND me in this context? What are you doing now? Why did you claim you are uninvolved? QuackGuru (talk) 20:22, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Recently? That diff is 8 months old, and at that time I was unaware of WP:HOUND. It may surprise you, but I am quite active on this page QG, I havent followed you. Neither have I edited Acupuncture. I suggest you strike that comment, because its a false accusation. What am I doing now? I am doing what I normally do on this page, objectively look at the section and comment like lots of other community members do. AlbinoFerret 23:04, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban, per my comment above. Repeated efforts to educate DrChrissy regarding constructive use and discussion of sources for biomedical topics have made no progress. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:48, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply I have already dealt with the comment here[110] I would add that the feedback I was being given was totally confused. Despite statements that source suitability can only be judged in context (which I agree with), the article has a history of entire journals being dismissed irrespective of context. To save time in creating article content only to have this reverted because a journal was unacceptable for unforeseen reasons, I chose to put the sources up for discussion. Several of these were dismissed because the entire journal was considered unacceptable, despite there being no context. This is totally confusing for editors. I summarised this concern and others about acceptance/rejection of sources here[111] in a way to offer collegiate discussion about how the article can be improved.DrChrissy ^(talk) 12:36, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. Impose 1RR/ 2 cmt article discussion control. Zad. Your words are telling Think about it. Dr Christien edits pretty normally according to someone who has worked with him/her but here you say he doesn't demonstrate that skill. What's different? Any chance the other editors on this article with personal attacks and pretty vicious cmts about a topic area are partly at fault. I agree with a cmt above. This is about content, and removing one party in such a dispoute is a strategy I am very familair with. I suggest we try restrictions on the article which implies responsibility and remedies rest with all editors and see what happens before we inpose such far reaching sanctions on a single person.(Littleolive oil (talk) 20:01, 14 May 2015 (UTC))
  • Olive the main issue is the persistent, WP:POINT-y lack of understanding of WP:MEDRS, exacerbated by their combative style. Whether they're doing this on purpose or not I can't really tell, but the result is the same, disruptive misuse of the article Talk page which interferes with article development. Zad68 20:16, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
    • I couldn't disagree more.You are placing blame for the dysfunction on that talk page on one editor. The problem is much larger than that and includes multiple editors not just one. I will never support sanctions on one editor given what I've seen. If you want to sanction do it across the board. Since that won't happen; I suggest imposing restrictions on the discussion and article itself which means all editors have to behave.(Littleolive oil (talk) 20:28, 14 May 2015 (UTC))
      • Olive, I'm placing some of the blame for the dysfunction on one editor, yes. It happens to be the most obvious and disruptive dysfunction at the moment. One philosophy is, Go for the low-hanging fruit: remove the most disruptive elements one-by-one until the level of dysfunction (there's always some) is manageable, then get back to work. However, let's be honest here: Nobody in these areas is ever going to get topic-banned like this at AN or ANI, really. Barring CheesyAppleFlake-like behavior, each perceived "side" has enough wiki-friends that will line up in defense of their "own" (even if they'll admit to themselves that the behavior actually is bad) to prevent a clear enough consensus for a topic-ban from forming. And that's what's happening here, even those opposing a topic ban (including yourself) aren't saying Chrissy's behavior is exemplary, but rather they don't want to lose an editor with their content perspective. OK, let's accept that reality. So you're offering Level the playing field. Let's explore those options, I don't think "Impose 1RR/ 2 cmt article discussion control" is right but willing to see what else we can come up with... but I have to step away. Zad68 21:17, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
      • I actually find the low hanging fruit metaphor frightening. Unfortunately, on Wikipedia, what appears to be low hanging and what is low hanging can be two different things. You can push on someone long enough so that they become upset, frustrated and behaviour changes. In the meantime the pushing isn't apparent just the resultant behaviour. We've lost some outstanding editors because they were thought to be low hanging and then only years later was the rest of the fruit discovered. :O) I respect your position just from my experience cannot agree. IRR works very well for editors who aren't pushing a POV. But I've said enough.(Littleolive oil (talk) 21:57, 14 May 2015 (UTC))

To the admins There is obviously a wide range of issues here. It would be impossible for any human to address these all in just a few hours, and it seems this has developed into a feeding frenzy where immediate comment on my part is expected. Could I respectfully request that an admin or admins identifies which of these issues should be dealt with first. I am happy to deal with all of them if that is your request, but that will clearly require some time.DrChrissy ^(talk) 20:06, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban Strongly per Littleolive oil. It is clear that this is a heated content dispute, but using a club to resolve this dispute is not the way to go. --I am One of Many (talk) 20:09, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban on biomedicine (#1) or alt med (#2). This is absolutely not a content dispute, despite DrCrissy's framing of it. Crissy consistently engages in disruptive behavior, consistently ignores requests, consistently poisons the well to polarize the discussion, consistently refuses to engage in collaborative or productive behavior (like explaining his edits or proposing content), and so on. Sure, behind his disruptive behavior are edits that are always pro acupuncture by removing (or marginalizing) any criticism, but that's not the issue editors are raising here. Crissy's advocacy could be addressed if he worked collaboratively, but with his refusal to listen to or coorporate with others, that isn't possible. Consistent disruption on this level isn't "providing alternate viewpoints", it's disrupting other editors' ability to work collaboratively and make improvements.   — Jess<spa n style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">· Δ♥ 21:12, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply You provide 2 diffs. The first relates to my removal of content from the lede. Yes I did this and left the Edit summary "(removed detail unnecessary for the lede)" My motivation for the edit is completely clear and this is most certainly about content. As for the second diff, that was me trying to clarify the document by using section headings that average readers would understand. Again, this is content. Neither of these edits were disruptive, they were simply evolution of the article. Therefore, the reasons for your vote are unsupported.DrChrissy ^(talk) 16:20, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban: Acupuncture may be utter bunkum. Yet brains scans (which are not influenced by belief, dogma, or anything else) -objectivity show an affect of changing brain function. Until that is explained, this practice can not be put in the bin of pseudo science. There are things that may be learnt from this research (eg in the field of neurology). DrChrissy is has been including research that adds to the total body of knowledge without favour. Even back in the days of printed encyclopedias they included unproven theorems because they conducted themselves as encyclopedias. i.e., a synopsis, font and cornucopia of all that has been recorded on the subjects included – in an objective manner. Which -as students- we all benefited from having that wider- field-of-view. Some of the comments above are attempts to put blinkers on readers. Scientists don't need blinkers. We are naturally sceptical by nature, which lead us into to occupations (with low salaries) where we endeavour to disprove old ideas – and thus gain new insights for the benefit of all mankind. So we don't need a few 'WP article owners' which think they own this article, to tell us how to think, behave and conduct ourselves. If there is to be a topic ban, then let it fall upon those editors that are thwarting WP's spirit of free knowledge.--Aspro (talk) 21:07, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - Per Littleolive oil and Montanabw.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:18, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. I've been half-assedly following along on the discussions related to this topic, without getting involved myself. This looks like yet another example of the Wikipedia community's chronic inability to say no. This editor's participation in the topic is tendentious and uncollegial and has not changed in response to feedback. Time to decline his offer of further participation. Opabinia regalis (talk) 22:22, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Comment: Then get more involved. DrChrissy is doing the very opposite of being biased. Also, he is not supporting any received dogma. --Aspro (talk) 22:51, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• comment Hi Opabinia reglis. I don't think we have been in contact before. Do you really think it is appropriate for you to be supporting sanctions on an editor when you have only been following the discussions "half-assedly". This is a serious matter which affects my life - and I would lke to suggest you treat it in that manner.DrChrissy ^(talk) 22:46, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

You misread. @Opabinia regalis: is not saying they have been half-assedly following the discussion here. They have half-assedly followed the discussions related to this discussion. This makes the implication that they have been half-assedly following prior conversations related to this one. For you to take such issue with JzG to allegedly be misrepresenting you, I find it odd you don't take more care not to misrepresent others.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:21, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Can you run all that by us again. Your grammar does not make sense when object, subject, subjective case ,etc., gets all mixed up like that in your post witch ewe rote. --Aspro (talk) 23:53, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Sure! The above is a misrepresentation of what Opabinia regalis has said. To quote them, "I've been half-assedly following along on the discussions related to this topic, without getting involved myself." This discussion we are having here on ANI is the topic they allude to. Discussions (plural) alludes to discussions prior to this one here on ANI. I'm unsure if this misrepresentation is a sign of incompetence or if it was on purpose. It seems to me though that if someone comes to ANI to bitch about others misrepresenting them then they should take care not to do the same to others.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:34, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Serialjoepsycho is correct. Sorry for the confusion. Incidentally, I've only been half-assedly following the prior conversations because they're so long and tedious and repetitive and filled with WP:IDHT. Opabinia regalis (talk) 00:22, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply Opabinia reglis does not provide any diffs to support their vote. Furthermore, there is language which suggests following relevant discussions has been half-hearted. I would not find this a particularly well supported vote.DrChrissy ^(talk) 14:16, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - please don't tell me we have now resorted to topic banning editors because they expect civility and politeness. --Atsme^☎️📧 22:34, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support due to concerns that they are unable to apply MEDRS appropriately. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:17, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply This editor does not provide any diffs nor do they say they have read any other editor's comments. This vote is totally unsupported.DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:06, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Rude and uncollaborative. I don't follow alt.med articles closely enough to assess DrChrissy's competence off my own bat, but I see many well-reasoned arguments above that it's weak or lacking. Also I'd call him rude and uncollaborative. Boris called his attitude on alt med "histrionic and self-righteous" above,[112] and that was exactly my impression when I went to his page recently because I'd noticed something odd on my watchlist. This conversation followed, which I invite you to form your own opinion of, and then he promptly "banned" me from his page, along with two other good-faith editors (NeilN and BullRangifer).[113] As far as I've seen, DrChrissy edits alt med discussions in a combative way, with an extreme readiness to take offense — same as is illustrated in the userpage thread I link to above, and in his frivolous complaint against JzG above. And indeed both these things apparently flowed from heated discussions on Talk:Acupuncture. A topic ban from these articles would surely be good for the atmosphere on them, and let many good editors focus their energies more productively. It might even help DrChrissy himself to regroup. PS, after edit conflict: I'm amazed at Atsme's comment just above that we're 'resorting to topic banning editors because they expect civility and politeness'. It's true that DrChrissy is extremely interested in "incivility", but only in perceived incivility from others. He'll frame criticism as incivility, and such touchiness is uncivil in itself IMO, no matter how many "please" and "thankyou" he injects into his discourse. Please read my diff: would you say it was because he "expected civility and politeness" that he refused to let anybody fix Neil's typo, or banned me from his page? Bishonen | talk 23:18, 14 May 2015 (UTC).
• Support Having looked at everything presented here, there's really no option but to topic ban DrChrissy, honestly. Their behavior is WP:CPUSH to an extreme level. None of the oppose votes so far have even begun to address some of the egregious diffs presented, which is troubling as well. Parabolist (talk) 23:31, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply This editor claims to have read everything here but then claims to be voting to support sanctions based on Civil-POV pushing. This has not been suggested by any other editors, so they should have provided diffs to support their argument; there are no diffs. This vote is totally unsupported.DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Topic Ban - It appears from the discussion on Talk:Acupuncture many users attempted to cooperate with Chrissy, to which he refused to meet them half way. Since it has been shown not only here (excellent points made by Bishonen by the way) that Chrissy has a history with these situations, a topic ban could possibly help him understand what "civility" and "politeness" actually are. TheGracefulSlick (talk) 23:39, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply As indicated elsewehere, I am sure the admins will be looking at the quality of comments and votes, not the quantity. You may have raed the Acupuncture Talk page but you have not bothered to prodide diffs to support your vote. It is not clear which of Bishonen's points you dis/agree with. This vote is totally unsupported.DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:54, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Change of venue Given that the subject area is under discretionary sanctions this would be more properly handled at WP:AE. An advantage of AE is that proceedings there are more structured, and follow other constraints that tend to lead to more thoughtful consideration of the arguments than ANI. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:03, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

The request for ban was open on basis other than DS. A request that is in ANI's wheelhouse.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:41, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from human biomedical content (first choice) or, failing that, alt-med subject matter. The core is the persistent failure to understand or apply WP:MEDRS, despite many many patient explanations by many experienced editors--this indicates they shouldn't be editing in content relevant to WP:MEDRS, which is human biomedical content. Certainly their behavior at Acupunture has been a flashpoint, and unfortunately I expect that behavior to get carried over to the next subject area they go to, but at least an alt-med TBAN would relieve (to some degree) the most urgent issue. Zad68 00:20, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I'd like to point out/emphasize that asking only for a topic-ban is being very generous. A TBAN only addresses the issues related to their inability to grasp WP:MEDRS, it totally ignores the behavior issues evident most clearly in the diffs Bishonen provides--those kinds of behavior issues can really only handled with a block. Zad68 00:35, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban One example was on 27 April 2015 when DrChrissy asked Is Quackwatch a reliable source? (permalink). I replied half an hour later with the standard answer that mundane statements do not need a top-quality source, and WP:PARITY means top-quality sources are not needed to refute fringe claims. DrChrissy's responses show they looking for reasons to knock out opposition to acupuncture's claims in order to promote the efficacy of acupuncture as a medical treatment. After the massive discussion there and elsewhere, DrChrissy recently posted an enormous set of claims at Talk:Acupuncture to re-open past rejections of dubious sources. DrChrissy now switches to trying to knock out an editor with the above report based on the "Wow! Is this racist?" comment by DrChrissy here at acupuncture talk. Asking "is your comment racist?" (that is, "are you racist?") is not available as a backdoor method of asserting that someone is racist, and bringing the matter to ANI shows a severe lack of judgment, and at least a topic ban is required. Johnuniq (talk) 01:36, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban (uninvolved) per Zad68 definitely from alt-med, though I see a pretty good case being made here for biomedical in general. The case is laid out pretty well above that this behavior is problematic. I've run into DrChrissy a few times at some agriculture articles and didn't really see any problems with their behavior. However, often where MEDRS applies though, especially more fringe type stuff, they seem to act like a bull in a china shop in terms of combative behavior and lashing out at other editors whenever I've glanced at the conversations. DrChrissy came close to administrative action at this ANI, so since it doesn't look like their behavior has been improving in this general topic area, a topic ban seems like the next logical step. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:55, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support Topic ban Per WP:CIR competence is required but it is lacking here as it relates to MEDRS. You could also question the competence of coming to ANI with unclean hands. You can try to WP:CRUSH them with kindness but this to often is a cause for incivility. It's time for this to stop. Honestly, it is very generous if this only ends with a Topic ban.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 02:12, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban both on the basis of CIR, and also on the basis of their WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude towards other editors. BMK (talk) 02:49, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban of this editor who appears to be a fringe combat soldier determined to push pseudoscience on the Wikipedia battleground. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:55, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban on biomedical and alternative medicine topics, widely construed. This is a generous offer, since a complete ban would be the only other helpful alternative left, and I don't think that is necessary, unless the topic ban is rejected. Then a total ban should be used. Allowing DrChrissy to continue to edit animal topics would allow them to develop competence in those areas. The major problems I've seen are lack of COMPETENCE, massive IDHT behavior, rudeness, uncollaborative, failures to AGF, and gross failures to understand MEDRS and sourcing requirements. They have gone so far as to repeatedly claim that Quackwatch is not peer reviewed (and should therefore not be used), when websites are not expected to be peer reviewed. We use non peer reviewed websites and sources all the time, especially when they cover topics from angles not dealt with in peer reviewed research, such as controversies. The desire to exclude sources which deal with controversies is unwikipedian. We need them. In this case DrChrissy is consistent in seeking to eliminate those which don't support their position. This is far from a content dispute. Behavior and competence are major factors. A "fringe combat soldier" (very well put, Cullen328!) about sums it up. We don't need tendentious editors creating disruption on sensitive subjects they don't understand. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:06, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply Here is an example of the way BullRangifer talks to me in discussions, ". It's a website, and not a "blog" type website. NEVER call it a "blog" again, got that?! Learn what that term means,..."[114]...and they accuse me of being rude!DrChrissy ^(talk) 13:21, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

DrChrissy this is just another example of you being combative with another user, who may have lost his/her cool for that reason, so why would you give this as a diff for people to read?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 13:48, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

It is an example of the rudeness and uncivility of some of the editors on this page. Are you condoning the edit?DrChrissy ^(talk) 14:06, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

If you want to somehow loosely interpret it as me saying I condone it, than you are mistaken. I encourage it since I believe you should be topic blocked, and the diff is just another example of your own hostility toward other users. TheGracefulSlick (talk) 15:09, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

DrChrissy, TheGracefulSlick is correct. I was beating my head against your massive IDHT behavior and was very frustrated. How many times are we expected to explain something to you before you understand? We don't know yet because you haven't yet reached that limit. You just keep on IDHT!! When it comes to the "blog" idea, you and Jayaguru-Shishya exhibit equally improper behavior. You both keep on repeating that false claim, even when it's explained repeatedly. I hope you both stop it. It's a slur that should be below you, but you keep sinking lower.

Your enormous lack of competence and IDHT behavior on these subjects makes it very difficult to deal with you. Some strong language, not even swearing (which would have been justified), was certainly justified, but even then it didn't help. You continue, even here. You fail to acknowledge that YOU are the problem, so a topic ban seems to be the only way to protect Wikipedia from you. You should stick to your areas of expertise, although your competence in those areas has been questioned, and you risk a total ban if you keep this up. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:35, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support per Doc James above. Behavior seems to be another major problem. He seems very quick to take offense and to create mountains from minor percieved slights. The editing style just seems very combative. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI Statement} 09:09, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply This vote claims to be based on the vote of Doc James, however, I have shown above that Doc James vote was completely unsupported. This edit does not provide any diffs either. It is therefore totally unsupported.DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:48, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support I was one of the two targets of the last ANI that DrChrissy brought against someone, which also turned to boomerang quickly. I recommended that ANi be closed with just a trout, and it was. The (to use the going phrase) "fringe combat soldier" behavior seems to have only gotten worse, based on DrChrissy's behavior as described here, and demonstrated here, and from reviewing Talk:Acupuncture. Since nothing was learned from the trout, I will support a topic ban from biomedical in general here. Note - DrChrissy seems to have contributed productively to content related to non-human animal health topics in the past, and even received endorsement from someone I respect very much -- Tryptofish (who still has not returned) -- back in Oct 2013 (see here). It is hard to understand what has happened to DrChrissy to go so far astray. So the topic ban should be limited to biomedical (which includes alt-med) content about humans (including content about non-human animals if it relates to humans (e.g. toxicity tests). DrChrissy should be free to edit content about animal biomedical content that is not contextually related to human biomedical content -- content like this: Pain in invertebrates. (I should also disclose that i was subject of a past ANI for being incivil to DrChrissy, during which I apologized and was warned. That was me losing it, over the kinds of behavior described in this thread, btw. That is not an excuse for my behavior!) Jytdog (talk) 13:18, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose Topic Ban DrChrissy has edited according to our policies and guidelines and his original complaint above was somewhat justified. He supported sources others supported because they're reliable. When he dared to question why they were being excluded, Kww and Guy threatened him with a topic ban. That's not right. It's not civil nor proper decorum and calls to topic ban are nothing more than incivility taken up a notch. LesVegas (talk) 14:21, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Wait, are you saying your call to topic ban QuackGuru and effectively topic ban Kww for six months was uncivil? [115] --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:27, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

QuackGuru repeatedly violates our policies, which is why I have called for a topic ban on him. I asked Kww to voluntarily walk away from the article for 6 months along with myself after he asked me to walk away permanently, big difference. DrChrissy hasn't violated our policies. On the contrary, he has made many editors angry by holding them accountable and reminding them of our policies. LesVegas (talk) 14:59, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

LesVegas, a boomerang can cut a large swath of editors, like yourself, who improperly defend DrChrissy's behavior. You are showing that you too don't understand that DrChrissy is wrong. Maybe we should topic ban you as well. It would certainly cut down on the disruption on these topics because of your similar IDHT behavior, even here. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:43, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Topic Ban - Most of the accusations thrown against DrChrissy are not actionable. -A1candidate 15:47, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban on biomedical articles This editor is needlessly confrontational and does not appear to have the competence required to edit even uncontroversial medical topics, not to mention the already heated environment of alt med topics. Yobol (talk) 15:58, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Making gross accusations without providing convincing diffs is unlikely to work. -A1candidate 16:25, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

That is certainly the lesson DrChrissy needs to learn from this farrago. Guy (Help!) 16:38, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

How about you stop misrepresenting their statements as shown in the opening post? -A1candidate 16:47, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply This vote does not contain any referal to another editor's comment, nor does it contain any diffs. This vote is totally unsupported.DrChrissy ^(talk) 16:28, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

(e/c) @A1candidate: The evidence provided by Bishonen, Mann_jess and TenOfAllTrades above is sufficient to support my !vote, however I would throw in this this thread where he jumped into a discussion by poisoning the well in a discussion with an IP with needlessly confrontational tone. We need much, much less of this behavior on controversial topics, not more. That they feel the need to respond to multiple !vote that is unfavorable to them is frankly an excellent example of the tendentious behavior that needs to stop. Yobol (talk) 16:36, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

An impact factor of 1.422 isn't that low. In fact, many journals in the field of anatomy and physiology do not score much better. I tend to agree with DrChrissy's interpretation of WP:MEDRS with regards to the use of meta-analyses. -A1candidate 16:41, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

This seems to be an off topic comment that has nothing to do with the behavioral problems DrChrissy has. This is a behavioral problem, not a content dispute, so please take that comment to the talk page if you want to discuss it further (I don't, I have had my fill of the tendentiousness of editors like DrChrissy and have taken that talk page off my wathclist). Yobol (talk) 16:46, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Again, there is nothing confrontational in that diff. -A1candidate 16:51, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

@Yobol Do you really expect me to just sit and watch whilst a totally unfounded misrepresentation of my editing and character assassination is ongoing. You are claiming that it is tendentious editing to denounce votes like yours which offer no supportive evidence! That is absolutely bizarre!DrChrissy ^(talk) 16:57, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

It was needlessly confrontational and tendentious. I have no doubt DrChrissy and DrChrissy's supporter and wiki-friends disagree and will try to muddy the waters as much as possible to avoid sanctioning for their inappropriate behaviors. Such is life here on ANI. Yobol (talk) 17:02, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I note that Zad68, Kww and several editors are advocating for a topic ban for DrChrissy without addressing their original complaint. May I suggest that all uninvolved administrators (and editors) read their original complaint and take that into consideration as well? All future accusations will of course have to be backed up by evidence in the form of convincing diffs. -A1candidate 17:05, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
  • The original complaint was addressed. "Accusation of racism" was not a misrepresentation and I provided diffs to show why DrChrissy's competence might be validly questioned. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:18, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
• Procedural Oppose - As per Short Brigade Harvester Boris, Arbitration Enforcement is a better forum. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:07, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban I read the acupuncture talk page and I strongly oppose a topic ban. Montana and Little Olive Oil were very helpful as well. IMO, if Dr. Chrissy has lost patience from time to time, it would not be surprising from my reading of the talk page. Gandydancer (talk) 17:13, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment My view is summed up in the comment at 15:58, 15 May 2015 (UTC) by Yobol, so a topic ban or other editing restrictions appear to be needed. Also, I think the initial complaint demonstrates just one of the types of problems; DrChrissy's "question" cannot be considered outside of the context in which it was asked, and his choice to adopt an approach which is likely to cause needless issues has led to consequences (as he really ought to have gathered by now from a previous encounter she had at this venue - where I remember encouraging him to review WP:DR - and it appears he still has not adequately followed). Had he voluntarily disengaged in accordance with DR policy, he probably could have avoided this hassle; I don't think withdrawing his complaint is going to cut it this time though which is why the involuntary measure is being discussed now. NPA policy also for instance says to address issues of content and not to refer to civility policies (as he did) even if he perceives the statement he is responding to be inflammatory. His complaint was doomed to fail, and the tables have turned so that everyone is looking at a more serious issue of her problematic editing/conduct. It seems instead of acknowledging the issues or making an effort to appreciate the feedback being given about his approach and undertaking to modify his approach appropriately, his responses seem to aggravate the concerns at hand. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:23, 15 May 2015 (UTC)Replaced "she" to "he". Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:42, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply You state that your view is summed up in a comment that had no diffs or links to other editor's statements to support it. You speak about encouraging me to review WP:DR, but you provide no diffs. The one diff you provide shows the civil way in which I behave, even whan faced with a barrage of highly adversarial comments and edits. Your comment is not supported by any evidence. Oh, She is actually a He.DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:38, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

That's your opinion. My opinion is that your repeated WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT response even here only reinforces the concerns about WP:COMPETENCE. But thanks; I've corrected the references from "her" to "his" in my comment above in view of your clarification. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:49, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• My observations are in line with many of those above: DrChrissy comes across as a classic Wikipedia archetype, the eggshell-armed-with-a-hammer. He is extremely hyper-attuned to any perceived insult or incivility directed at himself (as an exercise, see if you can count how many times DrChrissy has demanded that someone else strike a comment). But he also casually and constantly attacks other editors and engages in gross incivility, most glaringly by accusing Guy of racism. (And hiding behind "I wasn't calling you a racist, I was just asking a question!" aggravates the offense; it's a dishonest dodge that insults all of our intelligences). Below, someone wrote: "With DrCrissy, even the most insignificant edit will cause drama and accusations of abuse", and I think that this is the crux of the problem.

  I'm not saying that DrChrissy is the lone problematic editor in these contexts (for example, I'm continually amazed that QuackGuru retains editing privileges here). But DrChrissy's editing is problematic, and that needs to be acknowledged. If there were any remote glimmer of self-awareness on DrChrissy's part, then I'd favor cutting him some slack, but in its absence I think a topic ban is necessary and is going to happen either here and now, or else later after additional drama. MastCell ^Talk 17:57, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Reply I think you are wasting admins' time with questions such as "(as an exercise, see if you can count how many times DrChrissy has demanded that someone else strike a comment)". Admin's time is valuable. If you want to make a point, do the research and provide the number of times I have made this request. Whilst you are at it, you could see which pages I have made these requests - I think you will be surprised and it will be a very good reflection of the behaviour of some editors on the Acupuncture page.DrChrissy ^(talk) 18:16, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

@DrChrissy: Actually, you will find that MastCell is an admin himself, so at least you appreciate how valuable his time is that he doesn't need to go the trouble you demand him to. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:21, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - The original post by DrChrissy says "Possible racist comment", and it was carefully framed as a question for guidance without referring to any specific editor. That is different from accusing someone of racism, as JzG claims. Regardless of whether JzG's comment was racist or not, some of the subsequent comments certainly might be viewed by some as racist, including this, this and this. So yes, DrChrissy's concerns are valid and I am glad they brought it up. -A1candidate 18:08, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

  That's not correct, actually. The original post by DrChrissy was on Talk:Acupuncture, where the entirety of his comment was "Wow! Is this racist?". It was only a day later – after DrChrissy got answers he apparently didn't like on the talk page, and without participating further in that discussion – that he tried to shop his accusation around to a new forum. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:29, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. Regardless of where the original post was placed, the racist comments continued to be thrown on the talk page as you can see here, here and here. Topic banning the OP isn't going to solve the problem though. -A1candidate 18:35, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I did not go forum shopping. I felt that the editing atmosphere on Acupuncture is now so toxic that some editors do not actually discuss or think about the subject matter - they simply jump to attack the editor. I have little faith that an issue as potentially damaging to the project as racism would be discussed appropriately in this toxic, adversarial atmosphere, so I enquired about the opinions of uninvolved editors and their opinions about the comment. This was a question about the comment - certainly not the editor.DrChrissy ^(talk) 19:09, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

That's an interesting suggestion—that other editors would rather be seen as racist than be seen agreeing with you.

• First, it's absurd on its face, and deeply insulting to suggest that other editors take the issue of racism so lightly.
• Second, it's more than a little vain and self-important to think that other editors believe you're a more important problem than racism.
• Third, many of the editors disagreeing with you are fully capable of recognizing a false dilemma when they see one; there is nothing that prevents an editor from deciding that both you and JzG were mistaken (i.e., they could reject your source with a different rationale from the one JzG presented, and even disagree with JzG's rationale).
• Finally, even if (arguendo) what you've suggested were true, it says some pretty awful things about your contributions if dispensing with your suggestions were seen as more important than dealing with racism.

None of that makes for a persuasive or plausible argument in your own defense, DrChrissy. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:03, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

A1candidate misrepresenting what other people write, whether it be to make DrChrissy's words less inflammatory than they were, or continuing in the same vein to describe discussion of the bias of Chinese sources on acupuncture (which is documented) as "racist", is a serious breach of the talk page guidelines. I suggest you tread more lightly. And more accurately. Jytdog (talk) 20:38, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

As maybe one of the few medical editors who has never gone anywhere near the acupuncture article (or others like it), I've held off entering an opinion here for several reasons.

First, we have much bigger problems with medical content than in areas like acupuncture, and it's tiring to see so much effort and bandwidth go into this. It does need to stop; there are worse issues in medical content to be dealt with.

Second, as expressed best by MastCell, I don't think that DrChrissy is the sole problem, and I'm surprised/dismayed at what some other editors get away with (not in this instance, but others). But this thread is not about those other editors; it is about DrChrissy, and I've observed throughout this discussion how frustrating dealing with him/her must be and how powerful the IDHT and combative streak in DrChrissy is. So, considering the evidence and behaviors on display in this thread, my views about a topic ban are mostly aligned with those expressed by Jytdog[116] and MastCell.[117] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:45, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. Per Montanabw et. al. Minor4th 14:35, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban With the examples given above, this editor does not understand WP:MEDRS.VViking_TalkEdits 15:38, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Questions regarding proposed topic ban for DrChrissy

Clarity please It appears that User:Zad68 formed this secondary topic here[118]. Am I correct to assume this means Zad68 is the user who initiated sanctions against me?DrChrissy ^(talk) 09:04, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

May I know why you ask, DrChrissy, before I type up a whole thing, just to save us both some time? Because if it's because you're wondering if Zad68 is an "involved admin" who shouldn't "initiate sanctions", I think I can clear that up for you. Bishonen | talk 10:29, 15 May 2015 (UTC).

My request is really for a very general reason - I believe if you are being accused of something, you should be aware of who is the accuser.DrChrissy ^(talk) 10:42, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

In that case just look at the diff you yourself give: Zad merely added a header to a proposal floated by Neil, namely "We were considering going to Arbitration Enforcement to request a topic ban relative to CAM articles, but I'd be just as happy to get one from ANI". So Neil, not Zac, was the first to propose a community sanction. Many other people have accused you of specific things above. Nobody has initiated sanctions", by the way — no sanctions have been initiated yet. But I seem to be telling you very obvious things; I'm still not sure what's unclear. Bishonen | talk 12:20, 15 May 2015 (UTC).

Thank you for that - I'm sure the admins will note the tone you used.DrChrissy ^(talk) 12:57, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Bishonen, it was Kww who floated the proposal, not me. But really, all this because a header was added? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:57, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

With DrCrissy, even the most insignificant edit will cause drama and accusations of abuse. Yes, all this because a header was added. And everything below is because another editor added a comment at the same indent level as Crissy - a grievous offense, I know. And on Talk:Acupuncture, all that because you modified your own comment. Of course, that behavior happens all the time with DrCrissy... but this is just a mere content dispute, right?   — Jess· Δ♥ 15:28, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• A comment by Formerly 98 was added in this diff. I have moved it above this discussion so it is not lost. Johnuniq (talk) 11:05, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Other editors have chosen to question this elsewhere. My concern about Bishonen's edit is the use of "Many other people have accused you of specific things above" and "But I seem to be telling you very obvious things". These were totally unnecessary for the answer to be provided - just another attempt to taunt me.DrChrissy ^(talk) 14:00, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• @User talk:Formerly 98Please separate my comment from yours.DrChrissy ^(talk) 09:31, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Since it seems to be of concern to you. I've adjusted the formattingt on Formeraip's comment to differentiate it from yours, but I also feel compelled to say that that the request you made is of a piece with your misapprehension of the importance of form versus content. It was clear to pretty much everyone except the most extremely literal-minded editor where your edit ended and FormeraIP's began. Such extremes of literalness is a problem I've noted in s number of Wikipedia editors in the past, and, in fact, continues to be a problem with many of them. BMK (talk) 09:53, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Close?

I realise this has only been open a little over a day, but it has degenerated so much, and is so painful. Perhaps there's enough for an uninvolved admin to close it and make the call? (I'd advise against a non-admin closing in this case, because it's not easy, and there may be more fireworks afterwards.) Part of the problem is the stress which I'm sure DrChrissy feels, and which he also spreads, by posting so much in this thread (currently 35 times by my count) and so… I don't know how to put it, but there's kind of no real dialogue or interchange. DrChrissy, please believe me sincere when I say I've been here ten years, and I've never seen a user under fire reaping any advantage from trying to respond to everything. Your reviews of people's support !votes ("your vote is unsupported".. "the reasons for your vote are unsupported"… "This vote is totally unsupported"… etc) aren't helpful to the poster or the reader. People are going to post their opinions in any case, and the reader may see your comments on them as self-serving. If this isn't closed soon, you'd really do yourself a favour by dialling down the frequency of posting. Bishonen | talk 21:28, 15 May 2015 (UTC).

Unfortunately, I've seen the same behavior from DrChrissy since the very first time they came to my attention on the noticeboards, even carrying over their arguments from closed threads to unrelated ones involving their original antagonist. BMK (talk) 21:42, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I would strongly agree on a closing of this issue. I would have said more here, but I was afraid of losing my composure to Chrissy's irrationality in this discussion. This discussion obviously isn't making any headway toward Chrissy admiting to any wrongdoing so there really isn't a point of dragging this on.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 21:41, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

This has degenerated into the usual AN/I-thing. I suggest closing as "food fight" (or more tactful wording) without prejudice to revisiting the matter in a more structured venue such as WP:AE. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:36, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I disagree - it seems to me that there is a very strong consensus for a topic ban, with only a few opposes or abstentions. What the terms of the TB should be is less clear, but that shouldn't stop some kind of sanction from being imposed. BMK (talk) 00:59, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, did a count, and it wasn't as one-sided as I thought. Still pretty much a 2:1 consensus though. BMK (talk) 01:03, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• It appears we just need to settle on the wording and have an admin make the closure, apply the topic ban to DrChrissy's talk page, and record it wherever such things are recorded.

  From what I can gather from the various comments, we're talking about a "topic ban on human biomedical and alternative medicine topics, widely construed," or something to that effect. Have I missed anything? -- BullRangifer (talk) 07:40, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Comment from OP

I would like the closing admin/s to look at Talk:Acupuncture and consider the atmosphere I have been editing in on this page. Given the amount of name-calling, hostility, suggestions of incompetence, etc., I think it is hardly surprising that I might have stepped over the mark on some occasions. However, I have certainly not been the only one. I think the fact that so many of these same editors have rushed to criticize me at this ANI, rather than look at why I raised the ANI, is an indication of their adversarial and combative character. I believe many of those who have voted for sanctions on me feel threatened as I have dared to question (1) the overzealous application of WP:MEDRS to articles (some of which are not even medical articles) and it's intended extension to articles on animals, and (2) I have voiced opposition to the use of a web-site, "QuackWatch" as a reliable source for medical articles. I think it is this feeling of being threatened or irritated that has motivated much of the animosity on the page. I can not deny that some editors may have perceived my editing as being disruptive, but again, I was certainly not the only guilty party. However, for my part in this "multiple-editor disruptive process" I am willing to accept a warning for disruptive editing on the Acupuncture Talk page.DrChrissy ^(talk) 10:45, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

At the risk of stating the obvious, a warning for disruptive editing is not what there's consensus for. Bishonen | talk 11:45, 16 May 2015 (UTC).

I offered an olive-branch.DrChrissy ^(talk) 12:11, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

This post shows that you still do not understand the complaints, or what is disruptive about your behavior. A warning is helpful when there is hope of improvement, but there can be no such hope when you are convinced the complaints are frivolous. I assure you, no one here feels "threatened" because you "dared to question" our policies. You should seriously reflect on the fact that, while you've garnered some support from editors sharing your POV, a significant number of uninvolved editors have confirmed your behavior is very seriously disruptive. That should tell you something.   — Jess· Δ♥ 12:42, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough, I offered an olive branch - that does not mean you have to take it.DrChrissy ^(talk) 13:33, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

The fact that you stated that you are "willing to accept" a warning, and that you view this as a magnanimous gesture on your part, puts the whole situation in a nutshell. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 14:17, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I tallied around a 60-40 split in the vote. I can double check to see if I'm wrong, but is that consensus? What are the defining lines here? LesVegas (talk) 14:30, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

It's going to depend on strength of arguments: a reviewing admin could decide for or against, depending on whether he believes the pro-ban side has made their case. It's not a matter of nose-counting.—Kww(talk) 14:35, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@LasVegas see WP:VOTE and WP:CON. Several contributors failed to address either the complaint or policy in their !vote, which is why counting is mostly fruitless, because it doesn't impact the strength of the arguments.   — Jess· Δ♥ 14:48, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it appeared to me that quite a few !voters seemed confused about what they were !voting on.DrChrissy ^(talk) 15:40, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Several mistakenly believed that this is a content dispute. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:44, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Alternate proposal for DrChrissy

DrChrissy, I'm no admin so take my input with a grain of salt, but it looks like there's a fair chance that you could end up topic banned here, so I propose an alternate for your consideration.

Several of us (who don't edit acupuncture) have acknowledged you aren't the only problem. Several (many? most?) editors weighing in here are here because they are part of one "side" or the other that has formed over the years, and some of them only because they carry individual grudges against medical editors. (Off-topic rant: for some utterly stupid reason, we no longer have an RFC/User process, so we can't deal with the grudge-bearers in this thread, but I digress.) An admin will have to sort that all out: are you willing to take that risk, or would you accept the alternative-- that in my opinion shows forebearance, long-term thinking, and strength of character-- of agreeing not to edit for six months in those areas spelled out by Jytdog?

If you were to do that, there could be many outcomes:

1. During those six months, the same troublemakers will continue to show up here, and admins will understand who those are.
2. During those six months, the same grudge-bearers will show up in every medical discussion here, and admins will begin to understand who they are.
3. During those six months, it will become evident how much you are or are not responsible for the problem.
4. At the end of those six months, you, they, we, all of us, may discover that the sky is not falling, and some of the medical editors who are so concerned about acupuncture may actually go fix some dangerously bad medical articles.

I don't see how you lose by willingly agreeing to stand off for six months. It is not an admission of guilt; it is a show of strength. I hope you'll consider it, so we can get on with dealing with the other problems. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:22, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mass bio creation without establishing notability by Philafrenzy

It all started innocently enough.

1. On 15 April, Philafrenzy linked Romie Tager to a BLP I created on a autism researcher, Helen Tager-Flusberg. [119]
2. The first version I viewed [120] looked like a political hit job (those are going around these days in UK bios) or WP:BLP1E issue based on sources that did not rise to the level required for a BLP. It used sources like:
   • Gordon Ramsay: I was a performing monkey while father-in-law had a cushy office job, that had a passing mention of Romie Tager.
3. Not being familiar with UK law, I asked Bencherlite to look in. [121]
4. On 24 April, Bencherlite submitted Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Romie Tager, and the article was deleted on 8 May.
5. On 8 May, Philafrenzy submitted it to Deletion review, where the discussion is now about four times as long as the article and twice as long as the AFD.

   Now, where my concern about WP:POINTy mass creation of bios begins:

6. On 9 May, in that Deletion review and in response to a statement that Romie Tager was as notable as Helen Tager-Flusberg, I pointed out PROF, the notability guideline for academics. [122] (It is a mystery to me why some editors can spend so much bandwidth arguing notability for a lawyer, when lawyers so frequently get passing mention in newspapers, rather than developing a guideline for notability for the legal profession. The equivalent for academics would be to claim a researcher is notable because they have ten articles published in PubMed. They aren't. We have a standard for academics.)
7. Today, 14 May, since I still have Philafrenzy's talk watched, I noticed another editor querying him about notability for academics, which led to me discovering that:
8. In the last few days, Philafrenzy has been mass creating bios on academics where no notability is apparent, nor is it established in the articles.[123]

   Just a few samples can be seen at:

   1. John H. Arnold (historian)
   2. Judith Colton ‎
   3. Catharine Edwards (historian)
   4. David Feldman (historian) ‎
   5. Vanessa Harding (historian)
   6. Julian Swann ‎
   7. Frank Trentmann ‎
   8. Sonya Rose ‎
   9. Dominic Rathbone ... and there are more.

9. WP:POINT-- Here is the conversation about the matter on Philafrenzy's talk: [124]

So, he appears to understand PROF and is creating mass numbers of bios of academics that don't seem to be notable anyway. Reviewing my past discussions with him, it is unlikely that any further attempt by me to converse with him will yield anything productive. If he is creating these bios to make a point, there are an awful lot of them that need to be dealt with-- I have tagged only some of them, and another editor has indicated they won't likely survive speedy deletion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:49, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

This is a bit of a mad conspiracy theory to be honest. There is absolutely NO connection between the creation of bios for professors of history at the University of London and the Tager article. Tager is a lawyer, not an academic. I do not disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. What point would I be trying to make exactly? Each of these historians would survive an AFD in my opinion. They are stubs that need to be expanded. What's wrong with that? Every article has to start somewhere. Sandy has never forgiven me for using the Daily Mail in the Tager BLP and I seem to have earned Sandy's eternal enmity for it. This has overtones of stalking. And what is a "political hit job"? Just to be absolutely clear, I have never had the slightest doubt that Helen Tager-Flusberg as a professor at Boston University is notable, nor have I ever suggested she isn't. The matter has never even been discussed as far as I can recall. Philafrenzy (talk) 18:29, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

P.S. of the linked articles one is a full professor at Yale, another the director of the Pears Institute for the study of Antisemitism and another president of the Society for the Promotion of Roman Studies. Philafrenzy (talk) 18:44, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

P.P.S. I see the Colton article has just been expanded by another editor (not at my prompting), she won a prize for a book apparently. It will be interesting to see what other expansions are made. Stubs are not spam, they are a gift to the editing community. Philafrenzy (talk) 19:50, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

The issue with most of the articles is not whether or not the subject is notable, but whether the article makes any claim of notability. Most did not. X is a professor of Y at the university of Z is not a claim of notability. WP:CSD#A7 is relevant here. Guy (Help!) 08:34, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

At least two noted that criteria 6 of WP:PROF was met. I could easily have revised them to make the claim stronger but they have been deleted overnight it seems when I was not around to comment further. Can they be restored to my user space and I will work on them a bit. Philafrenzy (talk) 08:38, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

These were:

Dominic Rathbone, president of the Society for the Promotion of Roman Studies.

David Feldman, director of the Pears Institute for the study of Antisemitism. Philafrenzy (talk) 08:57, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Carlo Monticelli has also been deleted (who wasn't even mentioned above) and is a director of the European Investment Bank and one of the lead negotiators in the Greek debt crisis (stated to be such in the article with coverage in third party RSs). Could that one be restored too please? (see Sky News article "The Men Who Hold The Euro's Fate In Their Hands" Philafrenzy (talk) 09:01, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I think Carlo Monticelli could have gone through an AFD process. It makes no sense to delete articles overnight--there needs to be a basic discussion, even with one-liners. We don't want to discourage article creators, just make them more discriminating.Zigzig20s (talk) 10:55, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I can see the misunderstanding. Notability is not inherited. Holding an office ina notable institution does nto confer notability, and is not even a credible claim of notability. Perhaps if the articles were longer than a single sentence there might be less of an issue. Guy (Help!) 11:33, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

What about Rathbone, Feldman (WP:PROF 6 "The person has held a highest-level elected or appointed academic post at a major academic institution or major academic society") and Monticelli? Philafrenzy (talk) 11:39, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

WP:NOTINHERITED (and indeed WP:NOTDIR). You need an actual claim of individual notability. Guy (Help!) 11:53, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry but WP:PROF clearly says "Academics/professors meeting any one of the following conditions, as substantiated through reliable sources, are notable." See point 6. And you haven't commented on the random deletion of Monticelli. Philafrenzy (talk) 11:57, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Subject specific notability guidelines are indications of the kinds of people who are likely to be covered by reliable independent sources and thus be considered notable. They do not mandate a list of bodies whose officers are inherently notable. The onus is on you, as author, to write an article that actually makes a substantive claim to notability (not just one which is obvious to you in your own mind). I have limited time for people who insist on an article being allowed to exist, but who can't be arsed to put in the minimal amount of effort necessary for the casual reader to understand why we should care. Several people have accused you of WP:POINT. I am inclining towards their view. Guy (Help!) 16:32, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I see more evidence of WP:POINTy mass deletion of bios. WP:PROF is not always very helpful; we have thousands of academic bios we probably don't need, but in most fields lack say 50% of the actual leading figures - as usual fewer than 50% of the List of Fellows of the Royal Society elected in 2015 had articles when announced, though again as usual the redlinks are going fast. At least those are specifically mentioned in the policy so safe from zapping. I can't see most of the list above, now red - I suspect zapping them was over-hasty. Use AFD, Guy, don't patronize very experienced editors by explaining basic notability policy to them. Johnbod (talk) 14:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Something is definitely wrong with an encyclopedias inclusion criteria when it is so much easier to be considerer notable as a porn star, a fictive character, or CEO of a minor company than as an academic.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 14:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
• I have always considered as assertion that someone is a professor at a University a sufficient claim to possible importance, sufficient to the extent that speedy is unjustified. It does not have to show notability. It does not even have to show that it probably will be notable (which is criterion for accepting an AfC). We deliberately don't use the word "notable" at A7. We can not tell whether they are an authority in their field without further checking, and we need to do that checking before deletion--and also before nominating for AfD. We use speedy when it is clear there is no reasonable basis for an article, and that the consensus of good faith editors would certainly agree with us. Such is not the case here. That does not mean that all professors at universities are notable, though I have observed that we have almost never deleted an article on grounds of notability for a full professor at a major research university unless there were some specific problem . In other cases we have certainly deleted articles, and I have !voted delete and closed as !delete when notability is not demonstrated.

Guy, you made these deletions without prior nominations. That is not a direct violation of policy, but in A7 situations it is not a good thing to do, because A7 is not black.white and all of us, including myself make errors. I have as much experience at deletion processes as anyone, and at least 1 or 2 % of my speedy nomination turn out to be errors. I know of nobody working there extensively who has a perfect record. (I would also support making this an absolute requirement for A7 and G11, both f which require sometimes disputable judgment)

I am reluctant to summarily reverting these deletions myself, especially if JzG continues to justify them, because my general views on notability are so different from his that I'm not sufficiently neutral. But if he or someone does not do so, they will be at DelRev tomorrow, with a copy of this as the rationale, where I expect speedy reversals.

It is however also true, that the rapid creation of stub articles on people in a single department of a university as in similar situation does invite scrutiny, & I always look very carefully if I see it at NPP. People who wish to do such article creations should make sure the articles are clearly sufficient before leaving them. But that does not apply here. All of them had quite sufficient information--including information addressing the fundamental criterion for WP:PROF, demonstrating notability by being an expert in their subject as judged by their publication record. Every one of them had books by the most important academic publishers, sometimes multiple books. That makes these deletions totally unjustifiable.

And I regard as assertion that a person has published a book by an established publisher as generally sufficient to pass speedy A7 (tho in some cases not speedy G11) . The reason is basically the same--it is an indication of at least plausible importance, and the possible notability can not be judged without further checking. Now, the case of NAUTHOR and NBOOK are two of the fields where I think our standards are too low. I have frequently nominated articles on authors and books for deletion at afd when I don't think that a reasonable interpretation of the criteria would justify an article, and I would also definitely advocate raising the requirements in NBOOK at least. But none the less I go by the accepted standards, not those I would like to have accepted.

Since every one of these people have written such books, and the publishers (usually CUP) are not in any sense marginal, there is certainly an indication of notability. DGG ( talk ) 16:03, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

University presses (with the possible exception of OUP) have a pretty low bar when presented with an MS by someone within the institution. Of course there would be no problem if the article's creator could have brought himself to write more than a single sentence. Guy (Help!) 16:35, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry but that is utter nonsense. Respectable University Presses (of which OUP, Cambridge, Duke, Harvard, Chicago, UCP, MIT, are some but there are many others) do not look at the authors affiliation at all when considering a manuscript. And they most certainly do not have a lower bar than comparable academic publishers - because that is what they are, they have to make profits on the books and cannot afford to publish bad books by local scholars (nor do they have any reason to).·maunus · snunɐɯ· 00:56, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

All of them had quite sufficient information--including information addressing the fundamental criterion for WP:PROF, demonstrating notability by being an expert in their subject as judged by their publication record. We have very different understandings of what WP:PROF says then, which is partly why I brought this here for other eyes (after seeing concern raised by one other editor on Philafrenzy's talk).

Separate from the notability issue, though, is the other issue of established editors who know (or should know, as opposed to newbies) how to write articles, but put up bios they expect others to fix (as in, working too fast and expecting others to do the cleanup). During all of this, Philafrenzy made this post which reinforces my concern about the quality of his work relative to editcountitis/speed.

It would be good if Philafrenzy understood-- considering his longevity here-- that this is not a good thing to do, specifically when the subject is a living person. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:07, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• WP:TEXTBOOKS does give more weight to books from academic presses than from general ones; but in general, notability of books comes from published reviews, translations, awards, and other secondary sources about the books. When listing books to document notability for a biography, I think it's best to find some external notability evidence for the individual books and cite it in the list. See e.g. Rubén Gallo#Books for a book list with some citations like that. Philafarmer, please consider that approach. The one-line articles sound like WP:KITTENS and deserve more care before being turned loose in article space. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 19:58, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

DGG, now that my original concern requiring admin attention has passed (that the OP had gone on a pointy article creation spree after the rejection of Tager at AFD and Deletion review), I need to make sure I'm following the rest of the discussion and your reasoning on notability. As of now, your reasoning isn't clear to me (dumber than the average bear). I am at a disadvantage that I can't discuss specific examples, since I don't have the tools to see the deleted articles. Nonetheless, I think I understand so far that:

1. You are drawing a distinction between two separate issues: 1) establishing notability (which can be challenged at AFD); and 2) when there is sufficient cause for an admin to invoke speedy deletion criteria. I think you are saying that I correctly tagged the articles as needing to establish notability, but you are disagreeing with JzG's interpretation of the speedy deletion criteria.
2. And also separately disagreeing with my interpretation of WP:PROF ??
3. You are saying that in some cases if WP:PROF isn't met, WP:AUTHOR may be instead.
4. You are saying that (in your opinion) usually profs at major universities will meet either PROF or AUTHOR, and when those cases are debatable, that is challenged via AFD, but rarely with speedy deletion.
5. Even if the version of the article put up does not establish that notability, and even when (as in my case) separate google searches do not reveal notability ???
6. But you are not saying that so strongly as to suggest that JzG abused the tools-- just that the use of speedy deletion is open to different interpretation???
7. And then you're saying you disagree with the speedy deletion, which you will challenge, so the articles can be reinstated. At which point there may or may not be separate AFDs to establish notability.

Do I have those parts right so far? If I do, here is the part where you lose me: in this post, you encourage Philafrenzy to continue creating these bios, even before they are established as notable via AFD. So, then, I'm furthered confused by your reasoning on PROF and AUTHOR (again, at a disadvantage that I can no longer see the articles, but I know what I saw when I tagged them).

1. WP:PROF has 9 criteria that I didn't see met in any of those articles. Just being a prof at a university doesn't mean notability is met. Even a "major" university.
2. But I think you are basing notability then on AUTHOR, and I'm not seeing that either, because:
3. WP:AUTHOR lays out 4 criteria that I didn't see met on any of those articles, and establishing that one of those four is met would require additional investigation, possibly at AFD.

So, to help me understand your interpretation of either PROF or AUTHOR, not in terms of whether they meet speedy criteria or would pass AFD, but which would justify advising that anyone should continue creating these kinds of bios, please help me see where/how they meet AUTHOR. Or which part of the discussion I'm misunderstanding. We turn down bios like this that are at AFC and brought to WT:MED on academics all the time. If every academic who has written a book gets an article, that is a significant departure from business so far in the medical realm.

If this is better handled on user talk, no problem, but I didn't want to split the discussion unnecessarily. But what I'm getting is that :

1. JzG is saying if an article doesn't establish notability, and others can't find it, then it can be speedied, while
2. You are saying it's OK to continue writing bios that don't establish notability, and require others to do the work to try to discern or establish it (like uncovering book reviews), even if that means unnecessary process like AFDs.

Which I don't think can be what you are advocating, so ... ??? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:20, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

First, I was indeed dealing with the immediate question of whether these articles should have been speedy deleted-. Being a professor at any university or writing any reputably published book is a sufficient indication of plausible notability, and these articles each had considerably more than that minimum,. I din't explicitly raise the issue, but since you asked, I am indeed saying that in my view JzG's deletions were not just misjudgments, but unqualified errors (tho I do not pretend to understand why he made these errors). If a candidate for Admin had made speedy nominations for articles like those, I doubt they'd be promoted nowadays.

Second, I also think they are notable beyond reasonable doubt, though all the evidence is not yet there to prove it. (the books , for example, need the reviews to be added) I think there is essentially zero % chance that any except the one I mentioned will be deleted at AfD. For the one I mentioned, I think it's about 20% possible there might be a delete. We'll see if I'm right, if anyone nominates them. My accuracy at predicting these is by no means perfect. The discussion of whether they meet the requirements should be better done at another place, normally the afds. /certain we don't decide on notability at AN/I. To avoid confusing the issue, I'll respond to you objections there if necessary. (I will only here clarify a few misunderstandings. in point 4, . Not all profs, but only full prof, or profs in the traditional UK sense, at major research universities are always notable. You left out the qualifiers. I think that very few Assistant end only some Associate professors even at major research universities are notable; I think most professors of any rank at predominantly teaching institutions are not notable. The full p@mru are notable as a matter of actual practice here, because we have always held so in the last 5 years: No full professor at a major US or European research university has every been deleted at AfD in the past 5 years, except for cases where there is prejudice here against the person's field (e.g. education, agriculture, business for example) or where the person is also known for fringe views either in his subject or in something else. I may have missed a few, but I challenge anyone to find 5 in the 5 years. The place to discuss it further, besides the individual AfDs, is WT:PROF) You raised the question, but I do not know where you get the idea that university presses are unreliable, or of relatively high quality. I think in the academic world with respect to the humanities, it is just the other way round: the only respected publishers that count for tenure are the major university presses, plus the academic divisions of a few commercial publishers. But this would be question at RSN, and I don't want to argue it further here.

with respect to your tagging. If you had added speedy nomination tags, I would have said say you did as incorrectly as JzG, except that his was an administrative act and should be held to higher standards. But you merely placed notability tags, saying additional evidence is needed. Additional evidence and referencing is indeed advisable, as with almost all WP articles. I would not have placed the tags, because in a case like these it is so easily corrected, and I consider there is no real doubt. But it you thought there was a doubt, you are in the right to say so. It is perfectly correct to place a problem tag if you think there;'s a problem, whether or not it turns out that there actually is. A problem tag is only marking an article for a further look, and unless it is done abusively or utterly absurdly, it's almost never wrong. We disagree, but it's expected people disagree. I don't see this as needing further discussion anywhere. I don't think anyone is challenging your tagging. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talk • contribs) 21:34, May 15, 2015‎

Thanks, DGG, for the clarification on full prof in major universities, which helps. One other clarification: it was not me who said that university presses are unreliable. My concern is that I saw the bios created rapid-fire, saw that notability wasn't established on any of them, did a google search for more info on the subjects, found nothing, and tagged them (knowing that meant someone else would have to clean up Philafrenzy's work).

I understand your views on notability now, respect that JzG's may be different, but I'm still not quite sure why editors should be encouraged to create bios without establishing notability, and I'm wondering if your library access means that you are seeing articles which make these people notable that I am not able to see. If that is the case, we again have bios being created that someone else has to finish. I have no interest in taking any of these to AFD as long as the underlying concerns (the pointy concern) have been addressed ... but what I still am seeing is that an established editor is creating articles without establishing notability, leaving work behind for others to finish and setting up the possibility of extra time-consuming process (AFDs).

I also see some disagreement expressed throughout this discussion about notability, so I'm left with the conclusion that ... if every historian is going to get an article, I am going to stop holding the line on every researcher who comes up at WT:MED, because I apparently am missing something.

Anyway, thanks for explaining your reasoning, Bst, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

just one point--the reason it is easier to determine this in science is the usability of citation indexes to show notability, and the fact that this is a measurement that essentially everyone working on here agrees with. And if you'd like to join me in my forthcoming proposal to restrict notability of routine academic books, I'd be glad of it. DGG ( talk ) 02:47, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I would contest that, and say that any academic regardless of academic post and place of employment is notable if their work has been reviewed and referred to by their peers. If there are published reviews or other articles discussing their work, any academic should be considered notable per GNG. I do agree that making large amounts of contentless stubs is not helping anyone. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 02:28, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Could part of the problem be that WP:PROF is a wee bit too restrictive? ·maunus said it best, something might be wrong in our criteria for academics. I never understood the logic behind a football (soccer) player in a fourth tier English team being automatically notable while an associate professor at a prestigious English university and with ten peer-reviewed publications in ranked international journals is disqualified by current WP:PROF criteria.Full disclosure of heavy bias: I'm an academic myself with a number of peer-reviewed publications in ranked international journals. I claim no neutrality in this matter - but I think it merits discussion. FT Reader^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:07, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I think one way to get around WP:PROF is to go by WP:GNG. We could do this if we were to consider book reviews and summaries of an academics' work published in peer reviewed journals as "non-trivial third party sources" that would to go towards satisfying the general notability. I don't see any reason that a review of an academic book should not give the same degree of notability as a press release turned into a news article for a CEO biography, or a press conference turned online news article for a minor celebrity. Academics are notable for their work, so any published source, including reviews and summaries in other people's research articles, should count toward academic notability.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 00:12, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

That route, like citation indices, is certainly available (criterion 1) but not that often seen argued in detail at AFD, where most participants lack access and awareness of what they mean. Plus all these measures are subject to massaging that only those close to the field really appreciate. Johnbod (talk) 00:27, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it does require expert level familiarity with the topic to use this approach. But I have used it with success myself, in specific cases where notability was contested in spite of an academic being a major figure in the field. (Not all important academics ever become distinguished or named professors for example).·maunus · snunɐɯ· 00:32, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Manus, That approach using GNG is one reason we have WP:PROF. In my earlier years here, I showed a few times that by using WP:GNG, every academic who had published papers that had been cited could be technically shown to be notable--which amounts to including all postdoctoral fellow in most scientific fields , and everyone further along. The result was obviously contrary to common sense, and I never really advocated we use it. But it shows the need for some more realistic standard. The best approach to a standard in general is the same as we use for WP:RS--to accept what people in the relevant field accept as notability, on the basis that they are likely to know better than us. I think the clearest example of this is our use of specific charts for notability in music--I may think it leads to overcoverage, but it is a comprehensible & determinable standard, and that's what is really important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talk • contribs) 02:47, May 16, 2015

This batch of A7 deletions was really poorly thought through and JzG who made them deserves a trout. Essentially, "X is a professor at [good university]" is already a claim of notability that should be enough to prevent A7 speedy deletion. To become professor, you have to have done something significant in your research area — maybe not enough for WP:PROF, but definitely enough for A7. Arguably that's true even to finish your Ph.D. And in the case of e.g. John H. Arnold (historian), we had not only that but five published books; as noted above, some of the others included society presidents etc. We do not need (and do not want) wording of the form "X is notable for..." in an article in order for the article to have a claim of significance. And these articles did have loud and clear claims of significance. If you don't understand that, you shouldn't be in the business of deleting articles about academics. And if you're applying the same standards for A7 that you would in a full AfD, you're doing it wrong. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:07, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't have any problem with them being restored to Draft space and expanded to include some assertion of notability, but the articles themselves were a maximum of two sentences. More effort has already been expended by the creator in arguing the toss here, than on all of the content in all of the articles, put together. Think about that for a minute. All the reasons advance din this discussion as to why they are notable? Pity they weren't in the articles, because then we would not even be having the discussion. See my point? Guy (Help!) 08:07, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote. The articles already included an assertion of notability, even in so short a state, that you were apparently not competent to read. It was not necessary to expand them to include an assertion of notability, because that assertion was already there. That is why your A7 deletions were wrong. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:21, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Or you could have just not abused A7 in the first place and this would have been a lot shorter.. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:20, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

On creating stubs

• Guy, you are not being fair. It takes a long time to produce a decent stub if, as I did,

1. You check whether it already exists in some other form of name
2. Consider what the best article name would be (it's not always obvious)
3. Create redirects from variants of the name (I did)
4. Add the article to the disambig page for common names (they often have these)
5. Add incoming links
6. Do a Google search and read the sources
7. Create offshoot articles (the Pears Institute)
8. Write the actual article
9. Format the content, particularly the books and add wikilinks
10. Add relevant categories
11. Create the talk page with project(s)

I took a lot of care with these - they were not thoughtlessly spat out as one line stubs at all and to be honest I resent the belittling of my work. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:30, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Our coverage of academics, particularly women is very poor on here. If philafrenzy could create them at a minimum length like Judith Colton, but with a few sentences also explaining what her work involves and why she is noteworthy of mentioning here, I'm sure Sandy wouldn't object. There does need to be a few facts given to make them worthwhile I think.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:37, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

That's fair comment, I could have done more, but I had already done everything mentioned above. Colton was then expanded by others as a result of my creation of the stub. Nobody else had got round to creating it in the last decade had they? Who knows how large any of them will get if someone will just start them? Philafrenzy (talk) 09:46, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I understand the exasperation with the extent of missing content. But to really make the stubs worthwhile I do think if you could at least say, for example: xxx is an American scholar and archaeologist, Professor in Linguistics at xxx university. A xxx graduate, she is particularly noted for her research into Mayan petroglyphs. In 1987 co-authored a book on the ancient practices of the Yucatan, after extensive of study of the xxx site in the mid 1980s. Since 2001 she has been a member of the American Linguistics Association, with whom she has published several textbooks for students. That sort of length with an understanding of why they are included in the encyclopedia is fine and productive IMO. They don't have to be meaty stubs, but really need some bare facts to work with for the readers I think. I made the mistake years back of "sub stub" creation, and in the long term it's not a good idea. There has to be a compromise. I find sub stubbing say 3-5, and then quickly going through them adding a bit of content and sources is the best way to be efficient on this.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:06, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

That's good constructive advice. Philafrenzy (talk) 10:09, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

You can also quickly draw up book citations here which makes stub creation much for efficient. Sometimes you have to be careful with some of the google listings though, as occasionally errors are produced.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:15, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Agree, I use that app constantly but you have to check the content against the scanned page very carefully. The problem is in the underlying Google database. Philafrenzy (talk) 10:21, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Catching up, thank you Dr. Blofeld for making some headway here on what the serious, underlying problem is with this kind of (what I characterize as disruptive) editing.

As a content editor, I'm dismayed to see that what was once standard adminning (articles that don't establish notability were deleted, and editors who continue to put up articles that don't establish notability-- after being told of the problem-- are subject to being blocked for disruption) has changed to actually encouraging an editor to continue doing the same. This isn't the place for that discussion, but where this will lead in articles related to medicine will create boatloads of extra work for the rest of us, which brings me back around to the disruptive editing factor involved here.

Philafrenzy, you spent how much time laying out the amount of work it takes to create a bio stub above?? I'm sorry, but I do it all the time, I do it right (including cats, etc), and it takes me about 20 minutes to put up an article that establishes notability and won't require other editors to do MY work for me.

Here's the rub-- all the work that you are NOT doing is then work that others have to do when the new article pops on new article watch lists. How is it that your time is more important than the time of others? Is it just about quantity over quality? And if you were the subject of a BLP, would you be happy if someone put up a crap article on a highly trafficked website that became the first google hit and was riddled with maintenance tags? That is what you are doing to people.

You already knew the sources, you claim these people are notable, but you couldn't take the time to put that info in the articles so that I didn't have to expend time on searches, when I have no access to a university library?? Your argument that putting up a stub is time-consuming is bogus-- I do it, and I'm not even a good writer, so can you-- but your further argument that it takes too much time for you to do it right (followed by your query about editcountitis) is an insult to the rest of the editors who then have to take even MORE time to clean up after you.

Good on the old style admins like JzG-- who know what the standards once were in here-- and I say if you take the advice to continue doing more of same, you are engaging in disruptive editing. Establish notability on bios (not DGG's "presumed" notability) when you put them up. Your time is not more valuable than everyone else's here, and please ... take some pride in your work, at least when you are writing about living people. Please consider the quality of your work: if you can't do it for pride in your own work, then do it so you won't disrespect the rest of us (who have to clean up after you), and the subjects of the bios (who will find themselves with a first google hit to an article riddled with big ugly maintenance tags). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:51, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@Philafrenzy: I recreated Julian Swann. If you can aim to produce them at the very least about that sort of length and comprehension, not even a meaty stub but with the bare essentials which are informative to the reader it really makes a big difference. I presume he's English, I'm not certain though so if you check I'd be grateful. It could really use some more independent sources though, the university and book are acceptable, but needs more third-party sources to really demonstrate notability, I couldn't seen a abundance of material about him initially, mainly references, but he does meet WP:Academic. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:22, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Dr., how long did that take you? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:28, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

About five-ten minutes I'd say to do a quick search and compile some basic facts and start it. Most of the later edits were tweaks/minor additions, checks/link corrections etc so maybe 20-30 minutes in total. When I'm editing though it really feels like five or 10 minutes at most. Well put it this way, if I quickly stubbed 3 or 4 or them, I reckon I could have them all up to a bare minimum acceptable stub, each with at least two sources in about 45 minutes, something like that. The problem with a lot of academics is that while they're undoubtedly notable authors of books/papers, a lot of them really lack biographical coverage and the "meat" you get with a lot of the really notable figures and lack an abundance of material written about them. In some cases I wonder if we'd be better off having articles on the Faculties of certain universities and bio summaries of the professors in them.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:43, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't know that there is any need to change the way we do business (bad cases make bad law, and I'm not sure we gain anything by using these samples to suggest there is anything wrong with our notability pages-- there is I suggest a problem with the message we have sent that the kind of editing evidenced in this thread is acceptable. Establishing notability should be the minimum acceptable threshold, and it is just not that hard. THEN, avoiding attack bios and BLP issues is another threshold, but I hope that message has been received by now).

But what I'm getting at here is that the first version someone puts up is then scanned and viewed by multiple other editors who review new pages, and it just doesn't take that long nor is it that hard to put up something that doesn't need maintenance tags, establishes notability, and then can be expanded without leaving a real, live person with a crap bio as the first hit on google. Ten to twenty minutes is not too long to spend on a bio of a real person who is affected by sloppy editing; anyone who can't take that time shouldn't be writing bios. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:00, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I just did a test Sandy and timed myself. It took between 10 and 11 minutes to create the initial stub for Sonya Rose, and about 3 minutes checking links and typos. Obviously I haven't looked further afield in google books or whatever yet but for that really bare minimum stub yes, little more than 10 minutes work.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:05, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your effort here, Dr.! (But add a few minutes for WikiProject and BLP tagging on the talk pages :) Of course, those can be done after the bio is put up, because the absence of them does not require article tagging ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:16, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Finished Sonya Rose, ideally that is the sort of new article would like to see, borderline start class, took 35-40 minutes in total, a lot of that time was reading/research too rather than actual writing. Something which makes it look like we understand who she is. But the 10 minute minimum stub is acceptable and quite manageable if you've got a few to create Phila, if the others are as notable as Sonya they would never have got deleted if you'd added some bare facts. If you want some assistance feel free to ask me, but I'm not going to recreate all of them!♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:34, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Why, Dr., you deserve a barnstar! (Except an editor I respect told me that barnstars are for barns, and collecting them is Not A Good Thing :)

Now maybe you are just the person to explain to Philafrenzy that if he digests the message, I will have forgotten our differences a few days from now :) All the best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:50, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• Phila, Adding a "linkrot" tag to an article that you just created yourself and on which you are the only editor seems kind of weird to me... It was removed 7 minutes later by somebody who made the (small) effort to run Reflinks. Now why couldn't you do that yourself, that only takes 30 sec... --Randykitty (talk) 15:05, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Romie Tager deletion review

A related admin question while we're here ... Romie Tager was closed at Deletion review about 12 hours ago, but it's still there. What's the next step, who does it, why hasn't it been done, etc? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:44, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

 Done Re-deleted. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:25, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Rangeblocks needed?

Today seems to have been a day where an editor has been blocked, and has gone beserk, persistently IP hopping and posting various pieces of rubbish on User:Smalljim's talkpage (as well as other places). Although the ranges are generally all over the place, a large proportion of them seem to come from either the 81.135 series of IPs, or 86.165 range. Are these going to be too big to consider a rangeblock? All of the IPs are BT ones, although there has been another vandal (possibly, doesn't fit the pattern of the main one) who has hopped across three countries (let alone ISPs). Evidently Smalljim doesn't want to semi-protect their talkpage, but the vandalism is spread across other places as well. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:54, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

The IP has made clear an intent to edit war, a complete disregard for any Wikipedia content policies, stated having no interest in discussion or mediation (per this edit).

The IP added some external links and is upset about their removal from Pharmacy automation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) by @Charlesdrakew:. Of the nine links they are adding, six are broken. Of the remaining three, one requires registration so should be omitted per WP:ELREG. The remaining two links are 1) Google abstract of a patent and 2) about page of a parent company which is no longer connected to the company mentioned in the article, which is now a separate legal entity.

The IP has posted rants on talk pages of anyone who reverts or blocks them, and vandalized additional pages while ranting against their dynamic IPs being temp-blocked by @Smalljim: and myself. Given the user's comments and actions, it would be useful to have additional admins monitoring the disruptions. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:52, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

By repeatedly forcing vandals like this to get new addresses we can gain a better idea of what range(s) we can block. Bishonen has put one limited rangeblock in place already. I'll see if there's enough info for more - someone who's better at calculating rangeblocks than me could try to beat me to it (not hard!).  —SMALLJIM  20:54, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I've just done a quick calculation: edits from the whole of BT are running at about 60 per hour at the moment. In the hour to 21:00 (GMT) about 20 of them were reverted. So a block of the whole of BT for an hour would have affected about 40 (assumed) good edits. We can be much more accurate than blocking the whole ISP, so when a vandal is particularly lively, short blocks (under an hour) of part of this huge ISP doesn't cause as much collateral damage as I assumed it would. I'm not suggesting we actually do this now, but am putting it up as something to consider.  —SMALLJIM  21:48, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

It is really difficult to prevent abuse from ISPs such as BT, and rangeblocks cause quite a bit of collateral damage, so semiprotection is probably the way to go, unfortunately. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 21:56, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Except that short, targetted blocks won't cause as much CD as one might think.  —SMALLJIM  22:16, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

The problem with BT is that you can't target the rangeblocks. As you've seen above, a single vandal has hopped all over two separate /16 ranges which are also on two different /8s. When we had a problem a while back I experimented with it myself (I am on BT) and in ten resets, I ended up on three different /8s (81, 86 and 109 - and BT has three others) and only once did I hit the same /16 twice running. It does seem to matter where you are (certain parts of the UK do seem to hit the same ranges all the time), but in other cases it's incredibly difficult to stop a determined range-hopper. Black Kite (talk) 00:06, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

That's interesting info thanks. I've collated the addresses that the vandal was good enough to provide us with yesterday and although as you say they jump about a fair bit, the evidence indicates we could have slowed him down a lot with just a few /22s, and/or a short term /16 or two.  —SMALLJIM  10:33, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Tendentious editor threatens editors with mentioning them on external attack site

• No, it's not resolved, please see below. Bishonen | talk 00:53, 16 May 2015 (UTC).

AnnalesSchool is a long-term tendentious editor who is chronically attacking his perceived opponents. In his latest outburst he mentions that an external website which is probably connected to him is going to mention us and is calling his opponents "nuts" and "off our rocker": You two are off your rocker! You are both nuts! I suggest you visit www.comandosupremo.com/. Your article is mentioned there and there may be a few comments about you two pretty soon. The last thread on Talk:Greco-Italian War is littered with his attacks and crass sarcasm and I have given him level 4 NPA warnings on his talkpage in the past and in the latest thread at Talk:Greco-Italian War. His incivilities are too numerous to mention. The project is littered with the his widespread atacks. But I will provide another example of his vile attacks: He had told editor Cplakidas at Talk:Greco-Italian War: Sounds like you actually admire the Germans a lot more because they were more brutal and efficient. Do you happen to have a masochistic bent?. I ask that this editor be blocked for serially violating NPA, CIV, AGF and being tendentious as well as threatening other editors with mentioning them on external attack sites. Thank you. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:27, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Details about the external attack site

The external attack website AnnalesSchool maintains and uses to attack Wikipedia editors is called www.comandosupremo.com and his attack article is here: What is wrong with many Wikipedia articles dealing with war-time Italy? in which he mentions: This particular article is held hostage by a small clique of Grecophiles with Greek-sounding usernames who have simply confiscated the entire article and laid claim to all editorial rights to it (which is against Wiki policy) so that it is well nigh impossible to actually improve and cleanse it of its many defects. It would better to delete such articles entirely and start again. But what is really sad is that these so-called “editors”, who are obviously amateurs with little idea how historical articles should be structured and presented in a balanced way, are not even aware of the damage they are doing to Wikipedia’s reputation. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:51, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. I've seen AnnalesSchool's editing in Military history of Italy during World War II (e.g. [125] , [126]). He is very set on focusing on the specific school in history that "rehabilitates" Italy's military reputation. He does use sources, and it is a historical school that deserves to be mentioned and discussed on Wikipedia, but it's also a school that self-admittedly portrays itself as the "underdog" against the "established history", which implies that Wikipedia should still focus on the mainstream historical assessment, which all sides can agree is less kind to evaluating the effectiveness of the Italian military. I think AnnalesSchool is still potentially a valuable editor so long as he or she is reminded that the "revisionist" claims are not necessarily right and shouldn't be included as a new revealed gospel truth, but merely as a notable alternate view. SnowFire (talk) 00:10, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• But this report is not about AnnalesSchool's adherence to a particular school of historical thought. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

This report also shouldn't be about what an editor says on an off-Wikipedia website. The only time I've seen off-Wikipedia posting considered is if the editor outs another editor on their blog or website but that is not the case here. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:02, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

So an editor is allowed to threaten other Wikipedia editors with on-wiki comments like this: Your article is mentioned there and there may be a few comments about you two pretty soon. which use an external attack site as the threat? And this report is not only about the external attack site but also about the serial incivility of AnnalesSchool. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 01:12, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Before looking at the comandosupremo page, I questioned your conclusions — why would you allege a connection? Without a connection, this kind of statement is basically "look what an idiot they think you are, and what idiots they think the Wikipedia community is". But when the article's written by someone called "Annales" who, from his first sentence, is obviously involved as a Wikipedia editor, I see no reason to doubt the connection. It's not an attack page, or anything else prohibited by our policies, but I see this as playing into a general pattern of disruption. I see one clearly bad edit (the diff immediately after "AnnalesSchool's editing in") and lots of warnings on his talk page, but what about other problems? Given the warnings, if he's really being disruptive, there's no reason not to block if he keeps on going, but I don't want to block unless you can show me that this really is a pattern of behavior, either long-term or just recently. Nyttend (talk) 01:33, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I've alerted User:TomStar81 to this post: he's followed up on previous problems with AnnalesSchool's editing. As a comment, the problems with this editor's POV pushing, personal attacks and misrepresentation of sources have been long running. Liz is mistaken in saying that conduct such as what's being reported here isn't actionable: using off-Wikipedia websites to attack other editors, and threaten those editors personally, has a significant chilling effect and any number of previous instances have been treated as the harassment for which it is. This has included arbitration cases and bans. Nick-D (talk) 01:44, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I'd welcome his input. I don't see this as harassment, per se, but simply as a significant example of disruptive, non-collegial behavior. If this statement had instead been posted here on Wikipedia, we wouldn't sanction him for that alone: we'd give him a stern WP:NOTFORUM warning (not applicable for anything off-wiki), but we wouldn't block him unless it was part of a pattern of problematic editing. Why should his careful and repeated use of his off-wiki webpage be treated any differently? It's not something that needs to be considered especially bad or considered irrelevant, since he's repeatedly referring to it as part of his arguments. If Tom (or someone else) can establish a pattern of Annales having been uncoöperative and causing general problems, the use of the external website will be an example of why a block for general disruption will be a good idea. Nyttend (talk) 01:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

The comments on the external site are disparaging for the Wikipedia editors describing them as ...so-called “editors”, who are obviously amateurs with little idea how historical articles should be structured and presented in a balanced way. He also mentioned on-wiki that ...there may be a few comments about you two pretty soon.. If that's not harassment and intimidation I don't know what is. He also called Cplakidas a "masochist" for not agreeing with his POV. His pattern of abuse, harassment and incivility is very loud and long. Also if an editor kept a similar page on wiki disparaging editors that way the page would have been deleted as an attack page and the editor warned or blocked. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 02:30, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

So, should every editor who posts disparaging comments on Wikipediocracy forums about users also face a block? WP:ANI doesn't police the internet and block editors based on critical comments they make about Wikipedia unless they "out" other editors. Such conduct might be considered in an ArbCom cases which examines a wider variety of evidence among involved parties in a case but it shouldn't be considered here. This blog entry that is linked to doesn't even identify editors by name! It should be considered free speech or else WP is going down a rabbit hole that would allow sanctioning many editors and admins here for comments made off-Wikipedia about Wikipedia matters. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 13:11, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

How many editors have you witnessed here where they threaten another editor on-wiki that they will go to Wikipediocracy to attack them? Plus he is describing editors' usernames in such detail (Greek-sounding etc.) and also the article involved which makes it easy to identify the users involved. Also don't forget he has directly threatened us that he will mention us by name. Again, I don't know of any Wikipediocracy member who has directly threatened someone on-wiki that he will be mentioned on their website externally and after calling them "nuts" and "off their rocker". Do you not see his use of that website in addition to his personal attacks as a means of intimidating his perceived opponents? Because for sure he does. I remind you of what he said: You two are off your rocker! You are both nuts! I suggest you visit www.comandosupremo.com/. Your article is mentioned there and there may be a few comments about you two pretty soon. The bolded part is an unmistakable threat and he uses his website as part of that threat during a discussion on an article talkpage as a form of intimidation and, more ominously, to gain advantage in the discussion. He knows that and that's why he uses it. Can you not see it? The website and his connection to him are also relevant because he has used a sockpuppet to promote it. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 13:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• The editor should be indeffed until the threat is withdrawn and an understanding of the need for collaboration is shown. The above comment about "what an editor says on an off-Wikipedia website" is totally invalid because a glance at the first link above shows that AnnalesSchool was making an on-wiki threat that certain editors would be attacked off-wiki. Johnuniq (talk) 02:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
• <sigh> @AnnalesSchool:, we discussed this issue before, have we not? That there is, and there ever shall be, two sides to the coin that we call "truth": the truth as you see it (or I see it, or any of the above editors see it), and the facts as they are. Did I not caution that adherence to the truth as you saw it would cause more problems for you in the long run? We are here because you heard what was being said, but you did not listen to what has been said. Despite the fact that you are editing the encyclopedia and doing so on a cluster of articles concerning Italy in World War II you have not absorbed the message left by Benito Mussolini's fascist party: any group that attempts to impose an iron will without regard for the traditions of the people or the system they come from will eventually be ousted by the will of the people. Consequently, for the second time in recent history, we are left the issue of isolationist edits to the articles and declarations by you of a small group of editors who will not permit your edits in the article, but such a declaration, stripped of all disguise, is surely the mere primitive doctrine that justice favors the strongest of the two parties in a conflict. Just as I had prophesied, your own edits are now causing the public opinion here to turn against you.

In you hands, my dissatisfied editor, and not our, is the momentous issue of an edit war. Wikipedia and Wikipedians will not support you. You have no warrant issued by any school of historical thought to rewrite our articles for the sake of correcting a perceived slight against your subject on our serves, while I as an administrator am called to meet the challenge of a most solemn oath to preserve, protect, and defend the material on this site that others may share in and learn from the knowledge gathered here over these last fourteen years. I am burdened by the weight of the summons to this forum. We are not enemies, but editors. We must no be enemies. Though our approaches to a common problem may differ, anger and resentment must not replace discussion and consensus. Maturity on Wikipedia is therefore reached at the moment when one can recognize this system and work with it to achieve the goals they set for themselves. End this immature behavior here, before others taken action to end it on your behalf. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:05, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Is the website in question really an "attack site"? Well, this is how the editor in question criticizes a fellow academic at that website, who writes an article about the performance of the Italian military in a specific World War II battle: "Oh how I wish I could have tied this boy-wonder naked to a mule and promenaded him through the mountain passes for mine-clearing duties with the Italian troops laughing behind!" AnnalesSchool is an editor who openly yearns for the death of those he disagrees with, and threatens Wikipedia editors with comparable online attacks. Not cool for either the victim or the mule. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Omg. Can we indef this creep now? There is no doubt in my mind that if I took this to WP:AE (as Greco-Italian War) falls under WP:ARBMAC, thisuser would be indef topic banned in short order. The problem with that is that it would only cover Greco-Italian War and he would continue his crusae to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS in other topic areas, such as the North African campaign. Athenean (talk) 04:36, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Er... um... ouch! I'm compelled to !vote indef. There's something very wrong with the 'contributor' in question. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:59, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Annales is, sadly, a missed opportunity. There is no question that the basis of his argument has merit: there is a bias against WWII-era Italy, and it should be corrected so that a fuller and more accurate picture can emerge. The problem is, he is not interested in simply adjusting the historical narrative, he is interested in overturning it altogether and make the Italians victors and victims at the same time, absolving them of any mistake or guilt. In his period of activity here, he has been engaged solely on this one topic, and has come into conflict with pretty much every other editor involved in these articles; he has used sarcasm, thinly-veiled insults, baited other editors with offensive remarks, used self-published sources, distorted the basic chronology of events, etc ad nauseam. And now it is shown that he is an active member of a website that suspiciously tends to emphasize the Fascist element in WWII-era Italy (I happen to know the site before its redesign, and its pro-Fascist tendency is much clearer when one looks at older versions, e.g. March 2006), and where he engages in heaping pejorative adjectives on any scholar who disagrees with his POV. His comment at the diff given above by Dr.K really sums up his attitude: "better to be occupied by a more humane and honorable enemy like the Italian Army". Ergo Italians=good, all others either bad or stupid for not surrendering to them first rather than the Germans, who were worse. The myth of the "good Italian" driven to its extreme conclusion, mixed with not a little nostalgia for Mussolini and his regime... Whatever good might come out of his contributions is not worth the drama it generates. Constantine ✍ 08:32, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

"THere is a bias against World War II Italy" - You mean that we are determined to call Mussolini a fasscist dictator? .... or what? If Italy didn't want "negative" articles in Wikipedia perhaps it shouldn't have put the Fascists into power and then, just as things were going as badly as they could possibly go, conveniently switched sides to the Allies. Unfortunately for the consciences of the Italiian people, their decisions were at every instance a day late and a dollar short, and their motivations were about as base as they could be. BMK (talk) 10:04, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

There is a clear pattern by AnnalesSchool to try to attack the "psychology" of his opponents cf. the quote above where he calls us "off our rocker" and "nuts" and also consider this attack from 23 January 2015:

What were his motives, and the motives of wiki editors like himself who feel it to be their moral duty to denigrate and belittle the Italian war effort at every turn?; who continue to cherry-pick quotes and information designed to put the Italians in a bad light, come what may? The psychology of such people is interesting, to say the least.

Please see also the link above where he asks Cplakidas "if he has a masochistic bent". It is a clear case of WP:NOTHERE. In no collaborative project that I know of, editors engage in deliberate and longterm campaigns of psychological warfare against those they perceive as their opponents. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 11:02, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Here he is modifying straight quotes from inside RS citations with edit-summary: toning down some of the gratuitous rhetoric. While here he is the exponent of WP:TRUTH: Please put aside your strident Greek nationalism and start to accept reality and historical truth for a change. and also here: What in heaven's name are you actually objecting to? The truth?. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 11:43, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: The bias is that a large chunk of literature portrays the Italians as blundering, incompetent fools, and that this portrayal often descends to stereotyping and even caricature. The problem with Annales is that instead of taking an opportunity to rectify such cases with reference to more nuanced sources, he uses the prevalence of this portrayal as an excuse to dismiss everyone who dares to suggest that Italy's war effort was more than somewhat mismanaged at the strategic, operational and tactical levels, and that they had to be carried to victory by the Germans in France, Greece and North Africa. Constantine ✍ 11:36, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Blocked. Come on, Liz. Dr K wasn't talking about what an editor says on an off-Wikipedia website (other than to give background = showing the kind of off-wiki comments Dr K and Athenean are being threatened with), which is indeed not our business, he was talking about what the editor was threatening, on Wikipedia, to say on an off-Wikipedia website. To say about two specific editors, note. Now that people have pointed out the difference, is it so hard to back down? We all read too fast sometimes, and for you to double down with non-sequitur nonsense questions like "So, should every editor who posts disparaging comments on Wikipediocracy forums about users also face a block?" is disappointing. I agree with Johnuniq that the editor should be indeffed until the threat is withdrawn and an understanding of the need for collaboration is shown, and I have so proceeded. Blocked indefinitely for threats and intimidation, as here. They can be unblocked, just as John says, if they withdraw the threat and show understanding of the need for collaboration, also for avoiding personalisation of conflicts. I think User:Dr.K.'s description of "vile attacks" from the user recently is overly colourful, considering that all the users on Talk:Greco-Italian War speak rather angrily — the subject is clearly sensitive — but there's certainly inappropriate personalising: ""Do you happen to have a masochistic bent?" — "Fellas fellas, calm down. … What have you to fear? … Are you really that insecure?". And there's clumsy sarcasm too, as "the greatest of great Greek victories… I do not wish in any way to "tarnish" the great and magnificent victory of the Greeks … So, perhaps we can reach a consensus here and change the wording to include the above phrase by Stockings so that the reader is absolutely clear that it was and will forever be the "great victory" of the Greeks over the Italians, but perhaps explain to the reader that this greatest of great victories did come with a certain cost to the greatest army in the world, which as we all know, is the Greek Army." Note @ User:Dr.K., I haven't studied the matter of the purported sock, could you take it to WP:SPI please? Bishonen | talk 16:09, 15 May 2015 (UTC).

• Bish, I clearly was a lone voice making an argument to a larger group of editors asking for a block. I was merely voicing an apparently unpopular opinion that you discounted. I think it is important for editors to be able to speak up against the tide of a conversation and dissent from the call for editors' heads on a pike. I thought a lot was being made of of an off-Wikipedia blog post when I seen so much worse things pointedly stated about editors, that is how I read the situation. I'm just one editor and I don't expect other people to agree with me! I don't know what to make of you saying you are disappointed in me. I have only heard that said to me by my family. ;-) Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:38, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Liz, I think you're actually remembering a more heroic, more classic, narrative, where your lone voice stands up for the unpopular opinion, holds back the tide, than can actually be seen above.

Dr. K. posted a report actually asking for a block, yes, but then SnowFire said AnnalesSchool was a valuable editor, albeit they might need reminding of some things. And then you nailed your colours to the mast. There was no reason to think your position unpopular at that point, and I don't think there had been any calls for editor's heads on a pike either. (But thank you for not mentioning pitchforks, always appreciated). The larger group came later, and with them, possibly, a little neap tide.

If you're interested, take a look at AnnalesSchool's talkpage before I removed tpa — chiefly, look at the history— and see if you feel like defending them some more. My disappointment probably wasn't much like your family's: I was disappointed in your logic. I've never met a family who cares about that. Bishonen | talk 23:45, 15 May 2015 (UTC).

Use of sockpuppet

• Here sockpuppet Csupremo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) promotes links to , you guessed it, AnnalesSchool's website "commando supremo.com". He does the same here with edit-summary: An extensive well researched article on the operation. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 11:58, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
  • As the last outstanding issue has been appropriately raised at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/AnnalesSchool, I've marked this thread resolved. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:37, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Ncvm, it is resolved, I've just got a coda: I think I was too optimistic about AnnalesSchool being unblocked any time soon, as he has posted further insults and threats against fellow editors on his page in response to my block notice. Bishonen | talk 19:22, 15 May 2015 (UTC).

Issue for the foundation arising out of this

I really have to go to bed now, but the blocked AnnalesSchool, using an IP on my page, has made some further threats that perhaps the foundation should know about:

"I have decided to expose and name (with links) these miscreants on the ComandoSupremo site, and other wiki editors who have demonstrated a track record of heavy bias and non-neutrality, which will include their entries in the articles themselves and talk pages. I regret having to do this, but my colleagues and I see no other way forward. Until you admin people wake up and actually read the articles dealing with Italy more closely and critically, then this whole issue will not go away. The problems of sockpuppery, vandalism, having to protect pages, and a whole raft of other problems will continue."

"Expose and name". Maybe there's something WMF can do — contact the website's service provider, get it taken down? I've blocked the IP, but the text remains on my page (at least at this moment). It seems to me that the foundation should try to protect out editors against this kind of thing. I'm really asleep at this point. Bishonen | talk 00:53, 16 May 2015 (UTC).

Just FYI, the last time I tried to contact WMF Legal, I got a form e-mail (which didn't even fit the circumstances I described) in return. I don't count myself on their list of admirers -- but isn't Moonriddengirl an ombudsman or something like that? BMK (talk) 00:57, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@Moonriddengirl: Anything we can do here that we are not already doing? TomStar81 (Talk) 06:35, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

BMK, well, yes. I've written to User:Philippe (WMF) just in case he can do something, but I don't expect much. He's on vacation, too, per his userpage. I've reverted the stuff on my page, where AnnalesSchool's IP tells me what admins are going to have to do to stop ComandoSupremo from toppling Wikipedia. Bishonen | talk 08:12, 16 May 2015 (UTC).

Hmmm, I'll check, but honestly - I'm not really hopeful. We don't have great luck in getting sites to remove things of this nature. Usually complaints from one of the named parties go a bit farther, but I'll see what I can scrounge up today. Also, just as a note: Moonriddengirl is her personal username. For work things, it's often best to ping Mdennis (WMF). Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 08:25, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I just had a look at the site in question but see nothing there that goes beyond the limits of normal criticism and legitimate free speech, so I really think trying to take off-wiki action against that website would be useless and ill-advised. Nothing against the block for aggressive on-wiki behaviour, of course. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:16, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

FYI, the former user has now started "naming and shaming": taking quotes out of context alongside usernames. He concludes "I believe it is important to keep a record of such “fair and balanced” editors like Dr K, BMK and Alexikoua. But there are others (also with Greek-sounding usernames) who should be exposed for the frauds they really are." and "But stay tuned, because there will be more to come. I have only exposed a few of this miscreants. Others will follow". Surely this is crossing a line in regards to free speech? Not to mention seems to be inviting harassment for wiki users, cyber bulling comes to mind.

If any of his readers actually read his edits to the wiki they would see that he is pretty full of it, but I digress.2600:1015:B108:1B8A:24F7:5F5D:6E26:65E8 (talk) 15:43, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Geez, if only he wasn't highlighting a comment of mine that, in its raw form, was described as deserving an "award for 'worst written post by an experienced editor'." (I agreed). Even with the grammar and spelling cleaned up, it's hardly my best work -- and now, here it is, in the spotlight, under the hot white scrutiny of disambiguated media. Such is life!

(BTW, I don't think I've ever edited any articles on Italy in WWII, so it's all pretty irrelevant anyway. I should hop to it and get to work making unfair and unbalanced POV edits to live up to my new reputation.) BMK (talk) 20:57, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Persistent violation of policies

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Ambitiouscj (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has ignored notices and warnings on their talk page regarding the addition of unsourced content, occasional vandalism in the form of "hidden vandalism", and forms of edit-warring. Because the primary issue is general conduct and not vandalism or edit-warring, I've posted this discussion here. The user thanked me for this edit and followed it up immediately with this hidden comment, revealing that they in fact read the notice. From there, the user continued to ignore further notices regarding disruptive editing and higher-level uw-unsourced warnings. Ambitiouscj then proceeded to leave a personal attack (diff) on my talk page deleting content on the page in the process. These edits further reveal that they were well aware of their actions. --GoneIn60 (talk) 05:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

User also just personally attacked me 1, 2, 3, changing my sexuality box from "Gay" to "FAG", religion from "Atheist" to "DEVIL WORSHIPER", and my gender from "Male" to "Shemale", simply because I reverted a poorly sourced edit they made after being given four warnings, I'll actually be quite disgusted if they're not blocked indefinitely, that isn't acceptable. Azealia911 _talk 08:10, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

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Reliable sources for a birthdate?

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Hi, if this is the right place i would appreciate some support, if not please let me know where i can ask for advice.

Here (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Quentin_Alexander&diff=prev&oldid=662421919) i removed several blogs purporting to report on a person's birthdate but I don't think any of them are reliable. If there is a reliable source then wonderful, i just haven't seen one yet. Or maybe my standards are wrong here? Any advice? Georgeivs vid (talk) 08:54, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) @Georgeivs vid: At a glance, I'd say you made the right move - a blogspot source, really? - but since this is a board mainly for reporting behavioral issues with other editors, not content issues, you might be better off taking your inquiry to the Teahouse or the Reliable sources noticeboard. A proper source for something like a birthdate would be more official documentation like a publically available birth certificate, or publication in a newspaper or notable book, or something to that effect. BlusterBlaster^kablooie! 11:30, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

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Edit warring by Roe.ese

Articles New Romanization of Korean was made by User Roe.ese. But there are no appropriate sources (AFD), and User Roe.ese ignored a warning in the user own talk page. [127] Also User Roe.ese made a personal attack on my ability in English. [128] I think User Roe.ese should desist from those actions. Thanks. --Idh0854 (talk) 10:01, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Also at SPI. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Roe.ese --NeilN ^{talk to me} 11:28, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

AFD's article moved to Draft Namespace

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I was patrolling CAT:CSD and I came across Modestas Mankus. It appears that the article was nominated for AFD, after which, the author moved it to the draft namespace. Any thoughts/precedent on how to handle this? It seems pretty circumvential, especially on an article that may very likely have been deleted otherwise. Chrislk02 ^{Chris Kreider} 12:47, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• I'm tempted to say this is a variation on "the only significant contributor blanking the page" and hence the mainspace version could be deleted via G7 (though I see it has gone via R2). Technically, that makes the AfD invalid (you need an MfD to delete a draft). I have !voted on the AfD as I believe the subject is completely non-notable but following proper procedure the AfD should be withdrawn so the creator can work on it in draft space. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:38, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
  • That then opens the door for any article that is taken to WP:AFD. move it to the draft space and voila, the AFD does not count. I think the AFD should run its course on the original content (as long as there is a note clearly explaining what happened at the WP:AFD) Chrislk02 ^{Chris Kreider} 13:41, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
    • That's correct, but looking at the longer term view I don't see that as being too much different to the following scenario : 1) User creates unsourced article in mainspace, 2) Article is tagged A7 and deleted, 3) User is told to use the Article Wizard and use drafts 4) User instead copypastes the original into draft space 5) You wait. Time passes..... Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:45, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
      • (edit conflict) And, if it had been created as a draft, it would have never showed up at AFD to begin with. Remember, AFD is not a contest, and you don't "win" if the article is deleted, so it isn't like the person moving the article to the Draft: namespace (or self-userfying the article, or whatever else they do) is "cheating". That's a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, and one we discourage at Wikipedia. If it isn't in the article mainspace, it isn't an article, and users are intentionally given more leeway (not infinite leeway, just more) for articles which are in draft form. Think about it: Had the article been created as a draft in the first place, no one would have ever proposed deletion, at least not at this stage. So why should we a) care that it was moved or b) seek to delete the draft, since as a recently created draft, it should be given some time to be developed. This sounds like a total non-issue. --Jayron32 13:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
      • I tend to agree with that, but one thing that is different is that the AFD had already generated a Delete vote. If the article were moved to draft, and then, moved back into the mainspace again in a month the record of it's AFD may be lost. Chrislk02 ^{Chris Kreider} 13:48, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
        • Who cares if it generated a delete vote? Again, it isn't a contest. We aren't here to "win" battles, and if this had been created as a draft to begin with, no one would have even had the opportunity to vote one way or the other, so why bother? --Jayron32 13:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

This is not being viewed as a competition, or a "win"/"lost" scenario, but more of a "this is a potential way to circumvent the system" that needs to be examined. For the sake of argument, lets say that an article goes to WP:AFD, and generates some amount of discussion with a likely outcome of "Delete", and the AFD runs its course. If that article were to be re-created in the future, it would be easy to delete it via WP:G4 if the AFD ran its course. So, instead of having that precedent hanging over the articles head, the author moves it into the draft space, the AFD disappears, and in a week or two, they bring the article back. Our goal here is to build an encyclopedia, and this fails the WP:DUCK test of being encyclopedically notable; this content is NEVER going to be encyclopedic (do a google search). Chrislk02 ^{Chris Kreider} 13:59, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• there is no system. Again, the mentality that people are "circumventing" something presumes that they have found a way to "win" some contest, and you have therefore somehow "lost". That very perspective is harmful. Instead, we need to understand the purpose of AFD: AFD is narrowly to consider the appropriateness of an article in the article mainspace. This is not in the mainspace. Secondly, articles in the draft space are given a wider latitude to allow them to be developed. If we took the draft article to MFD on the merits alone, it would be declined at this time because a few days old Draft is generally never deleted excepting for obvious copyvio, attack page, or other bad-faith actions, and not merely because the subject doesn't appear to be notable yet. When you speak of circumvention, you're focusing on this as a contest, which it isn't. --Jayron32 14:29, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

...this fails the WP:DUCK test of being encyclopedically notable; this content is NEVER going to be encyclopedic while this article may be premature (the individual is only 18 years old and has years of work ahead of him), it's not true that this article will never be encyclopedic. I'm sure there are lots of articles that have been created that were rejected for lack of notability and after they worked on and fleshed out, they pass the notability test and are accepted into mainspace. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:35, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• For the record, here is the link to the AFD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Modestas Mankus

I suggest an admin speedy close the discussion, it is the wrong venue. If someone wants to nominate it for WP:MfD later down the line feel free. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

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Olympiacos B.C. disruptive edits by 141.237.149.158

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This ip user is trying to impose his version (which is completely wrong). I explained in the summary twice as you can see here: [129], [130]. He wrote an argument in his first revertion, but after my second revertion and because of his obvious lack of arguments, he made yet another revertion writing: "vandalism" as you can see here: [131]. I sent him a final warning and I am looking forward to your intervention. Thank you so much for your attention. Gtrbolivar (talk) 13:53, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

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Getting a AFD notice for a article I never created or even edited!

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Somehow I keep on getting a AFD notice for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Priyanka Nayyar, though the odd thing is not only I didn't create it-I never even edited it! (Usually I only see this happen if I change the name of the page) but yeah this is odd!

I just checked-the guy who put up the AFD is somehow putting this AFD notice on tons of people's pages! Wgolf (talk) 15:37, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Well on mine for one. And then reverted it- [[132]]. Confused me. It could well be just a good-faith mistake, but my usual hangout is over at WP:RFD and from there I take things to and from WP:PNT, I mean I either suggest the translation or do it, if I think appropriate, so my name is probably well-known in those parts. (Might not be well-liked, but that's another story...) Si Trew (talk) 15:51, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I did so because no consensus had reached on that discussion page for 4 days. By doing so, I thought that consensus will reach by notifying these users. Sorry for that. I'll not do it again. KunalForYou^☎️📝 16:14, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

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User:The Jolly Bard

The user is a single-purpose account, solely editing the article Liberland to add claims to the land by "Paraduin" and other fictitious micronations. Given that the user's interest in Paraduin (one of the user's first edits was to add its claim to the land to the article [133], and he repeatedly defended the "nation" at Talk:Liberland), I suspect that the user may in fact be the "founder" of Paraduin, Guido den Broeder [134]. Paraduin appears to only exist as publicity for a fantasy book that he is writing. User:Guido den Broeder, renamed to User:Roadcreature, has been blocked/banned from editing several years ago. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 18:06, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) There seem to be some weird things going on at Talk:Liberland. I dunno what to make of it... I guess the IP(s) that pop up in that discussion are the blocked editor in question?... But that whole conversation went to some odd places. --IJBall (talk) 02:11, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Sockpuppet, but an IP?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Not sure if this is even possible, or if this is even the right place to report this, but previously today, user Ambitiouscj was indefinitely blocked for vandalism and personal attacks on myself and GoneIn60. The main body of the users contributions were at Nicki Minaj-related articles, mainly Nicki Minaj discography, Anaconda (Nicki Minaj song), Only (Nicki Minaj song), Pills n Potions, and The Night Is Still Young (Nicki Minaj song). Their editing involved adding poorly sourced changes to sales and charting info, repeatedly, even after being given the four warnings, and then personally attacking users, namely myself and GoneIn60. It seems that hours later, an IP has emerged (172.56.20.66), editing the exact same pages as the blocked user, and providing the exact same sources as they did, examples:

• Changes to sales on discography, exact same edit summary: Ambitiouscj / 172.56.20.66
• Changes to genres of Only: Ambitiouscj / 172.56.20.66
• Changes to genre of TNISY: Ambitiouscj / 172.56.20.66

It should be noted that all of the IP's recent edits were made within fifteen minutes of eachother, as if the blocked user knew what to edit as soon as they regained access to the site. It's pretty evident that these two accounts are related, but what can be done? Is it common for a blocked user with account creation blocked to come back as an IP? I'm quite stumped, any help would be appreciated. Azealia911 _talk 19:14, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

It's called WP:Block evasion from a user to an IP. Any actions of avoiding a block by changing IPs or users results in blocks. Callmemirela (Talk) 19:18, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Ah, thankyou, I didn't know that! What happens from here on then? I'd reall like to see the IP blocked as swiftly as possible so I can revert their edits without getting into tedious edit wars. Azealia911 _talk 19:24, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I've opened a sockpuppet investigation here. Thanks. --GoneIn60 (talk) 19:28, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Battleground behavior by user Hijiri88, proposing topic ban

The user Hijiri88 posted this message today on the talk page of the article Korean influence on Japanese culture. He says that he will not speak to me anymore regarding an on-going content dispute and will instead ask for me to be topic-banned. However, my edits are constructive and it's hard to see what justification there is for Hijiri's attitude here. There is good reason to believe that the greater problems lie with Hijiri. Therefore, I am in turn requesting a topic ban for Hijiri from the article "Korean influence on Japanese culture" as a result of problematic behavior over the past year, including a very long-term pattern of incivility and battleground behavior. Although Hijiri has exhibited similar behavior in some other articles, cataloging it all would take too long, so I'll keep it relatively short and stick to issues relating to this one article.

Recently the user TH1980 began to make some reliably-sourced additions to the article Korean influence on Japanese culture, but Hijiri immediately began edit warring with him without consensus to delete the material. He reverted the same material TH1980 and I were adding five times in a 24-hour period. While reverting, Hijiri made uncivil and false claims in his edit summaries, repeatedly accusing TH1980 of being a sockpuppet despite having no evidence to support his claim. Hijiri also made uncivil comments to him in the talk page, including asking TH1980, "Who are you, and which other accounts have you used?"

If Hijiri was just having one bad day it would be different, but this has actually been going on for months and months. To see how long this has been going on, consider that way back in June of 2014 Hijiri created an attack page in his sandbox. The page had no purpose but to defame other Wikipedia users who had edited the article Korean influence on Japanese culture as being "POV pushers" and "sockpuppets". This attack page still exists, and now TH1980 is also on the list, who Hijiri claims is an "anti-Japanese" sockpuppet. It needs to be stressed that Hijiri has offered no proof for his nasty accusations and none of these users were ever proven to have engaged in sockpuppetry.

I imagine TH1980, as a Wikipedia user in good standing, wanted to play a productive role in editing the article, but how can he work with Hijiri when Hijiri assumes bad faith so openly that Hijiri repeatedly accuses him of being a sockpuppet to his face? I joined the conversation later and after making one constructive comment Hijiri immediately threatened me, telling me, "you need to be blocked per WP:CIR immediately". Hijiri continued to speak to me in an uncivil manner, including his comments like "learn to speak frickin' English" and "Please learn to speak English". I know how to speak English, so how many times is he going to tell me that? He also said, "I was about to close this comment with "you bloody buffoon"". By saying this, he actually did close the comment with "you bloody buffoon". He told me, "Why can't you get it through your thick skull" that Yamanoe Okura was not a Korean, in spite of the fact that numerous reliable sources, including the Cambridge History of Japan and articles by Roy Andrew Miller, do describe him as "a Korean". When I thanked TH1980 for his edits, Hijiri left a threatening message on my talk page and told me to "grow the hell up". He then made a completely fallacious statement and told me "if you are too stupid to understand that ... well". He openly assumes bad faith when he tells me, "I am only agreeing to post this here... so that constructive discussion can take place on the talk page. You have already demonstrated that you are incapable of this."

Now take a look at this clearly-disruptive comment he posted directly into the article. Hijiri deleted a reliable source while claiming that it was "twisted to say what the Korean ultranationalists who still seem to be running this page wanted it to say". Actually, Hijiri seems to accuse everyone who disagrees with him of POV-pushing or having a hidden agenda. Hijiri claimed that the reason why a "Chinese influence on Japanese culture" article does not exist is because "Chinese nationalists are apparently not insecure enough that they need to go onto English Wikipedia and denigrate another country's culture". At the same time in a related article he again called TH1980 a "Korean/anti-Japanese POV-pushing SPA" and called me an "incompetent user". He constantly accuses people who disagree with him of racism. He has accused both TH1980 and myself of "borderline racism". However, as the user Andrew Davidson said to Hijiri in one discussion about the article, "As for righting great wrongs, you seem to be the one on a mission".

On top of all this, perhaps one of the most serious problems with Hijiri's conduct on the article is his constant use of intimidation and threats against people he disagrees with. I myself have been threatened by him with administrative action literally over a dozen times in this particular article, including on these two occasions among others... "you would probably need to be either banned or blocked. You managed to avoid this result last time", and "I would take you to ANI and ask for a topic-ban, but on what topic would such a ban be? ALL Wikipedia editors are permanently banned from "original research" to begin with. Is it a block you want?" What is notable about these two threats is that they were issued against me BEFORE I had even edited the article in question. I was threatened with administrative action only because I commented on the article. I have never been blocked from Wikipedia before, so there is no reason why I should have been threatened this many times. Incidentally, Hijiri was warned by another user about making threats against me on a different article, but despite this Hijiri can barely make a single post nowadays without threatening me with administrative sanctions.

Hijiri also has problems with using sources, which he often does not read before citing. Perhaps most egregious of all was a whopping 1,000 word post he made rebutting an article which he admits at the beginning "I haven't read". It's a waste of others users time when Hijiri spends so long critiquing sources he hasn't even read. Unlike Hijiri I had read the article in question, so I quoted a relevant section to him. Surely a normal user would have thanked me for verifying the source, but Hijiri just launched into a long tirade against me. Again he accuses me of original research just for quoting a scholarly work in the talk page. Even when I told Hijiri that he should only criticize sources after reading them he responded "the only legal way I can access most of these English-language academic sources from American and European publishers is by ordering them off Amazon... how may I ask do you expect me to judge these sources on their own merits?." Why does Hijiri delete and criticize sources he has not read? Well, once recently the user Nishidani added new information into the article on Yamanoe no Okura and Hijiri immediately began to delete portions of it. After being questioned about the matter by Nishidani, Hijiri admitted that he had deleted the sourced information because he had mistakenly believed that I was the one who had added it to the article. Hijiri notes here he was aware that it "violates AGF to assume Curtis has misread and misunderstood a source I haven't myself read". I think it's natural Wikipedia policy, however, that sources cited should be read and judged on their own merits. One shouldn't delete reliably sourced information just because one doesn't like the editor who puts it in the article, as Hijiri fully admits to doing here.

As you can see, a large percentage of the comments Hijiri made in the talk page, and even in the article itself, are hostile and abusive. Furthermore. Hijiri has done very little to improve the article. Virtually all his edits to the article are just reckless blankings and deletions even of sourced text. Sometimes he is so eager to delete things that he cuts sentences right in half making their meaning incomprehensible. Wikipedia is supposed to be based on collaborative editing, but Hijiri spends more of his time trying to intimidate other users than collaborate with them. I would like the admins to review the above evidence and ask the question as to whether this uncivil and overly confrontational behavior is actually constructive to the goal of improving the article rather than being disruptive.

• Support topic ban as the proposer.CurtisNaito (talk) 20:31, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, I read your entire argument which is well constructed. My question is, how broad or how narrow is the topic ban you are proposing? Is it only for this article or are you arguing for a topical area that would contain multiple articles? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

When I was reading the page, it didn't have Snow Rise's comment and your response posted but that is what I was trying to address with my comment. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:22, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I think he should be page-banned from the article Korean influence on Japanese culture. To be honest, I considered asking for something broader, but I was worried the admins wouldn't read it all, because there was an awful lot of dubious behavior to document. Therefore, I decided to stay focused only on issues relating to this one page. If you look below, user Snow Rise says, "I would have supported a topic ban on subjects relating to Japanese history and culture, broadly construed". Therefore, I am proposing only a page ban, whereas Snow Rise appears to be proposing a wide-ranging topic ban. Which of these two ultimately occurs is something that I will leave to the discretion of the relevant admins.CurtisNaito (talk) 22:28, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support While the above is a tad TLDR, it builds a convincing case that Hijiri is not here to work with others, but has major WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:OWNership issues. It does look like he's deliberately making it impossible for others to contribute to the article, and the unsubstantiated accusations and rude, dismissive comments, as well his behavior in the actual article text itself, indicates to me that he needs to be removed from this topic so quality work can commence. As someone who has never edited the area before, I don't have a pony in this race, but the behavior outlined above, as evidenced by the diffs, is unacceptable. --Jayron32 20:56, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, if you want I can shorten it down. What parts are most pertinent?CurtisNaito (talk) 20:57, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support I am not a Korean/anti-Japanese POV pusher. Edits like this suggest Hijiri is not editing constructively. A topic ban would be the right solution here.TH1980 (talk) 21:07, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I assume you are aware now that Hijiri88 has attacked you directly in his sandbox as well. My belief is that that whole page is an attack page which should be deleted.CurtisNaito (talk) 21:16, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

@CurtisNaito That is just deplorable on Hijiri88's part. I agree that his sandbox page should be deleted.TH1980 (talk) 02:41, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I should add that, in spite of Hijiri's constant threats to have me topic-banned, it seems to me that Hijiri is more prone to dubious behavior than I am. Just within the last few months Hijiri has been described by other respected Wikipedia users as an editor who does not demonstrate "basic competence as per WP:CIR"(John Carter), who displays "gross incivility"(John Carter), who makes statements exhibiting "a powerful confirmation bias on this matter or, at worst, a willful misrepresentation"(Snow Rise), who adopts a "WP:BATTLEGROUND outlook" to editing(Snow Rise), who insults other users and degrades their nationality(Catflap08), who makes "tendentious" edits(Erpert), and who was told, under threat of sanctions, to "adopt a more collaborative approach to editing."(SilkTork) I have not verified the accuracy of all of these allegations, but even so Hijiri's threats and personal attacks against other editors are surely not collaborative behavior.CurtisNaito (talk) 21:24, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Those quotes from John Carter should be stricken out. He himself was demonstrating CIR issues and "gross incivility" in that dispute, and using his disruptive tactics as "evidence" only hurts your case. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 04:24, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Technically this is a pageban, not a topic ban. Personally, I would have supported a topic ban on subjects relating to Japanese history and culture, broadly construed, since this is obviously an area where Hijiri cannot edit collaboratively with others and I suspect we shall be seeing him here again soon on a similar topic. But I agree that CN has made his case here, and I have now seen enough content/personal disputes involving Hijiri on the noticeboards and elsewhere to know how willing he is to misrepresent the record to try to shoehorn in his preferred approach to content, sometimes seemingly without fully realizing that he is spinning the facts. A message needs to be sent here, since Hijiri has a tendency to pretty much universally reject or rationalize away any criticism of his behaviour. Snow ^{let's rap} 22:01, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I was thinking of proposing that, but I didn't largely because I think the admins, in accordance with TLDR, often stop reading a post when it becomes too long. I think Hijiri has engaged in the same sorts of battleground behavior in other articles, but documenting that would take so long that no admin would want to read it all.CurtisNaito (talk) 22:05, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the noticeboards have already seen an abundance of evidence of Hijiri's tendentiousness in this area. But as he is facing a pageban here and the possibility of two more in a thread above, I hope he will take the message with whatever narrower sanctions he might receive (or narrowly avoid, if that proves the case) and try to reach towards consensus and middle-ground solutions instead of the type of approach that has brought him here repeatedly. If he doesn't, I'm sure someone will propose a broader TBAN next time he is back here (as it will probably be for issues in the same content area). But as to the TLDR, yeah, I would definitely work on streamlining your presentation next time you might have to post here, even if you have a lot of evidence to provide; I very likely would not have slogged through all of that if I had not been pinged and was not familiar with the editor in question. Snow ^{let's rap} 22:48, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, I could delete or box some of it now if you want. You said before that you support my proposal, so what was it from the above post that convinced you? If there are some parts which are not relevant, I can take them out now if you want.CurtisNaito (talk) 22:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Topic Ban (non admin) After reading what CurtisNaito wrote, and looking at the diffs, there is no question that an Topic ban is needed, and it should be an indef one. After reading a few sections dealing with Hijiri88 behaviour I believe a indef topic ban broadly defined is in order, but the op didnt ask for it. Violations of WP:CIVIL, WP:HARASS and WP:NPA by Hijiri88 have clearly been shown. AlbinoFerret 23:46, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
• Note My "battleground behaviour" has been limited to telling CurtisNaito he is misusing sources and pointing out that many of the other editors he agrees with are obvious sockpuppets. I have spent almost two years trying to explain Wikipedia's sourcing policies to CurtisNaito, and he still doesn't get it. If anyone needs a topic ban it's CurtisNaito from ancient history articles. He has been wasting a massive amount of time on the part of other, more constructive editors like me, User:Nishidani and User:Sturmgewehr88. It's also worth noting that several of the other editors supporting a TBAN for me (Snow Rise and AlbinoFerret) clearly haven't read the talk page discussion in question and are only here as revenge for another dispute currently at the top of this page.because they have made a radically inaccurate assumption about my "disruptive behaviour" on other articles (they were both radically wrong there too -- Ctrl+F this page for "underlying content dispute") and assumed the same is true here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:06, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me, "revenge"? Would you care to strike that comment, please? I have never been in any kind of content or personal dispute with you anywhere on the project, and every single time I have taken part in a community discussion involving you, it has been because A) I was pinged there -- and three of those pings were made by you (1,2, 3), apparently because you thought my support for the content argument you made would extend to support for your behaviour broadly, which it did not and which I kept telling you well past each of those pings and your efforts to imply to others that my perspectives supported yours) -- and B) the discussion was taking place in a central community forum anyway. To the best of my knowledge AlbinoFerret has also never been in a content dispute with you for which he would be seeking revenge, nor do either of us have the least bit of history of developing content or policy disputes into personal grudges (ironically the very behaviour that has brought you to these noticeboards repeatedly and which you have been warned about by administrators (I have never in my time editing on the project been accused of such behaviour and certainly never received an administrative warning of that nature, nor of any sort, ever). Contrary to your statement (which is predicated on a claim to knowledge you could not possibly have) I did read over the discussions and evidence presented here in detail, and issued my opinion accordingly, which is the sum total of any "involvement" I've ever had with you anywhere.

This kind if behaviour (misrepresenting the perspectives of other editors and the motives of the community members that try to rein you in) is exactly the kind of thing that has made you the subject of so many different community discussions and administrative efforts to control your tendency to needlessly personalize discussions and adopt a battleground perspective to those who don't agree with you or are have concerns about the amount of editorial energy that gets sucked up by your combative behaviour -- and threads on that topic are essentially the full extent of my experience with you. So, what exactly am I meant to be seeking "revenge" for? Please be advised that making accusations of bad-faith actions for which you cannot provide evidence in the forms of diffs is considered a WP:Personal attack under policy, so if this is really the road you want to go down, feel free to see where it gets you; I guaruntee you that it's not going to help your case in this thread...

In the meantime, your efforts at misdirection and misrepresentation of other community members, which grow increasingly thin in general, have in this case devolved into outright lies about the degree and nature of my involvement with you on this project, so I would very much appreciate a retraction. And if you don't want my honest opinion of your behaviour, stop pinging me into discussions that review your behaviour as someone who supposedly will corroborate your positions! Snow ^{let's rap} 02:07, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Fine. Maybe not "revenge". You radically misread the Kokuchukai dispute as being a content dispute between two users with opposing POVs (as has the user you think has a POV opposibg mune) and the exact same thing has happened here. CurtisNaito thinks @Nishidani:, @Sturmgewehr88: and I believe Korean influence on Japan is minimal, but none of us have ever actually said we believe that. We believe CurtisNaito has WP:COMPETENCE issues regarding how to read and cite sources and have grown incredibly frustrated trying to explain WP:PST and WP:V (among others) to him. (Ironically, this is exactly the same as the Kokuchukai article.) Please actually read the discussion in question before supporting one party's request that another be page-banned. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:48, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you feel so confident repeatedly asserting that I did not follow up on that discussion, but -- saying this once again -- I did. But the content issues debated there are only so germane to why I !voted in support of the ban; what drove my decision was primarily concerns about WP:C and WP:NPA. I don't care how frustrated you are as a result of the fact that you feel you've had to repeatedly explain a policy argument to someone on the other side of a content dispute, it is never alright to resort to name-calling here. If you feel your ire rising to that point, you should back away from the discussion until you can make your argument without talking about your opponent's "thick skull". That's the real competency issue I see at work here. And it seems to be a part of a broader pattern, which is part of why I felt confident in supporting the measure proposed; it seems that when it comes to topics concerning Japanese nationalism and cultural identity, you just cannot keep your cool -- nor avoid developing grudges against those who oppose your approach, whose positions you often malign and discredit on the basis of the supposed prejudices of the other parties, rather than keeping the discussion fixed on the policy argument -- and that's very problematic. There have been a number of times (while I've reviewed the talk page discussions for the various Japanese history-related content disputes you've been involved with lately) where I agreed fully or in part with the content argument you were making but found the way you made that argument completely unacceptable and indicative of a lack of collaborative spirit in your approach to those topics.

Civility and cooperation are as essential to competence as understanding of content policies, and it's not an either/or situation -- you need to be able to know how to parse community consensus and do it without resorting to insulting those who see the matter differently -- argue the point, not the traits of the other editor, no matter how steamed you get. You make this all way too personal, and way too fast. If yours is the perspective that truly aligns with consensus (broad and local), then in the vast majority of cases, your approach will be adopted in the long run, provided you keep your cool and argue dispassionately. My support for the topic/page ban stems from the fact that questions of Japanese cultural identity seem to set your fuse short, and I believe in utilizing the minimally-effective sanction -- otherwise I would recommended a block for incivility, personal attacks, and inability to assume good faith. Snow ^{let's rap} 05:21, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose until underlying issue examined It is clear that Hijiri88 is using the wrong tactics (do not discuss editors on article talk pages, and do not use excited language), but I am concerned that the diffs might show that Hijiri88 is exhausted from dealing with problematic editors, and the proposed topic ban might be aimed in the wrong direction. For example, the "learn to speak frickin' English" diff looks like an "omg he was rude" moment, but the substance of the comment seems to be entirely accurate—Hijiri88 had commented on a source and its use of "Korean" as a noun to refer to a person; the response from CurtisNaito offers several items to reject Hijiri88's view, but each of the items is not what Hijiri88 had referred to. I clicked a few more links and did not see anything that could not be argued. Apart from raging at ANI, what dispute resolution has occured regarding the underlying issue? Johnuniq (talk) 01:50, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

That issue was already dealt with. At the time I hadn't checked the same source as Hijiri was using, but after I did it became clear that Miller does refer to Yamanoe Okura as "a Korean" using a noun, see here.CurtisNaito (talk) 01:56, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

The point is that you posted a diff showing someone using strong language, but on investigating the context it turns out that the language was provoked by blather that misrepresented the situation. That took place at the edit warring noticeboard, and what happened 24 hours later on an article talk page is irrelevant. Looking at the noticeboard again I see that Nishidani posted a very convincing statement (diff of tweak, search for "He was the descendent of a Kudara refugee who fled to Yamato" to see the comment) showing that, regardless of what Miller said, the above claim about Yamanoe Okura is absurd. Obviously the issue involves nationalistic POV pushing, but it is hard for those at ANI to determine whose removal would benefit the encyclopedia. Johnuniq (talk) 03:27, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

In regards to the original statement, I don't think there was cause for such controversy. The original source accurately noted that, "Another significant literary accomplishment of this period was the compilation of the Manyoshu... The Korean influence is also present in the anthology. One of the three main poets of the Manyoshu, Yamanoe Okura, it is now believed, was a Korean immigrant in Japan." The original text being put into the article said, "The poetry of Yamanoe Okura, a Korean who lived in Japan, demonstrates Korean influence on Japanese literature." There was no grounds to claim that any factual inaccuracies or misrepresentation occurred here.CurtisNaito (talk) 03:32, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support A 6 month ban on ALL Japanese related articles would be acceptable, Hijiri88 has made editing certain Japanese related articles so difficult by his bullying tactics that many editors will no longer edit those articles for fear of being dragged into this type of administrative action. It is not a matter at this point whether Hijiri88 is actually making constructive edits, the constant fighting that accompanies so many of the articles that Hijiri88 edits shows that there is a substantial problem with the manner in which Hijiri88 edits. Many editors have been dragged into prolonged, protracted debates which never should have happened in the first place......unless Hijiri88 is deliberately trying to cause problems which seems to be the case. Now Hijiri88 is running to other editors talk pages trying to drum up support when all of this could have easily been avoided. Using brute force to get your way even if you are right is not how editing is supposed to be done. Hijiri88 seems to get some sort of enjoyment out of drawing unsuspecting editors into one of these types of administrative actions. Even if the other editors are not as knowledgable about a subject it is not acceptable to constantly show how superior your knowledge is. What I do not understand is why Hijiri88 was allowed to continue doing this type of thing for so long. 119.94.99.143 (talk) 04:24, 16 May 2015 (UTC) — 119.94.99.143 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Hijiri88 here. Note that while I do not knoe for certain who the above Philippines(?)-based IP is, the repeated meme of "I don't know why Hijiri88 has been allowed get away with xyz" bears a close resemblance to what the site-banned user JoshuSasori and the indef-blocked user Kauffner have been repeating for the past two years in the attack site the former keeps on me. (I won't link to the blog itself because it gives my real name and, even more disturbingly, my parents' home address, but if anyone wants the details they are free to email me.) 182.249.3.142 (talk) 06:28, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• • Typical response by Hijiri88, everyone is a sockpuppet out to get you, why would it matter were my IP is based, and if you did "knoe for certain" who I was what would you do, try to drag me through some sort of extended administrative action, and lacking that info your plan of attack is to try and convince other editors that I one of the large number of banned enemies from your past so that what I have to say here should be ignored. I am simply stating the obvious, that the type of editing that Hijiri88 uses is the cause of much of the problems being discussed here and on the many other administrative actions that Hijiri88 has been involved with. Hijiri88 is an experienced editor and knows exactly what not to do in order to keep this very thing from happening. Constantly giving Hijiri88 a free pass to ignore the rules and procedures of proper editing will pave the way for the next administrative episode.....im just saying....119.94.99.143 (talk) 10:58, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - while Hijiri88 can get carried away with CAPS/underline/bold/italics/etc, he shouldn't be topic or page banned. CurtisNaito, who has been misrepresenting sources, should. It was only a few weeks ago that CurtisNaito and TH1980 intentionally baited Hijiri88 to revert them, then turned around and reported him for breaking 3RR. That is battleground behavior. I also second what User:Johnuniq said above. However, I do agree that Hijiri88's current sandbox should be deleted, as it violates WP:POLEMIC. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 04:55, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@Sturmgewehr88: Actually, most of my use of bold typeface on the talkpage in question is to demark quotes from other users with my own responses, and I very rarely use underlining in violation of WP:SHOUT, but to indicate that I have altered my own comment post facto. I say this because other users have interpreted these the wrong way before. I have violated WP:SHOUT in this case, and probably in past interaction with CurtisNaito, but only because (as Nishidani alluded on his talk page) I have a tendency to take AGF too far and assuming that if I keep trying and trying (no matter how frustrating) I can eventually get through to Curtis and he will learn how to follow our guidelines and actually read sources before citing them. Longshot, I know.

Blanked the page myself, but I have no real problem with it getting deleted. I put my "search for the smoking gun" on-wiki to be transparent and encourage collaboration with my fellow non-sockpuppets. I'll keep the search up off-wiki anyway, since the two SPAs who showed up in February were/are almost certainly engaged in sockpuppetry and/or off-site collusion and still haven't been either CUed or blocked. The textbook SPA who made an account, created the article, and disappeared after a month was also super-suspicious.

TH1980 is admittedly much less of a certainty than those three --hence CurtisNaito constantly accusing me of AGF-violation by making sockpuppetry allegations being far out of proportion to the maybe three or four times I directly stated that I thought TH1980 was a sockpuppet -- but at the very least he/she is a tendentious editor who doesn't know how Wikipedia sourcing is supposed to work.

But I'll keep my sleuthing and record-keeping off-wiki from now on, I guess.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:45, 16 May 2015 (UTC) (Edited 06:28, 16 May 2015 (UTC) )

If Hijiri broke 3RR then that is at least as much evidence of his battleground behaviour as is it is evidence of same for parties which supposedly "made" him do it; he knew what he was doing and knew the rules of conduct involved, so any rebuff he got at 3RR he earned. But what concerns me more are the issues with civility and the fact that when Hijiri gets into these types of situations, they invariably seem to escalate to the point where community discussion becomes necessitated. You took part in the same discussions with CurtisNaito and managed to not to call anyone any names, opine on the hidden ulterior motives of other parties, threaten administrative action in combative terms, or otherwise needlessly inflame the situation. You and other editors managed restraint in the same context, so why should we permit a lower standard for Hijiri? Snow ^{let's rap} 05:57, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@Snow Rises: I technically violated 3RR, just barely, once, almost two weeks ago; TH1980 made two more reverts in the same 24-hour period than I. All of my reverts were in accordance with WP:BURDEN and WP:BRD as I was trying all the while to discuss the changes with TH1980 on the talk page and was being largely ignored. CurtisNaito reported me on ANEW and not TH1980 because he was more interested in getting me blocked than in complying with policy. If technically and just barely violating 3RR counts as page-ban worthy BATTLEGROUND bahaviour when I do it, what about TH1980's much more flagrant violations? Does he/she deserve a page ban as well? What about CurtisNaito's own BATTLEGROUND behaviour, let alone the chronic WP:COMPETENCE and WP:IDHT problems regarding sourcing and talk page etiquette? Does CurtisNaito deserve a block or ban for these? If the answer to any of these is "no", I would ask why not? Why would you be in favour of applying a (much!) lower standard to them than to me? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:14, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

This is a POV clash, and Naito's second attempt to get rid of Hijiri. It has the following elements.

• Curtis likes to add stuff that upsets Japanese national amour-propre, while Hijiri is defensive about Japan.
• In terms of POV, I am almost invariably on Naito's side, when I have the patience or masochism to follow these threads, and I disagree with Hijiri.
• When it actually comes to discussing edits in terms of WP:SYNTH, WP:RS WP:OR, etc., i.e. the fundamentals of policy, I come almost invariably down on Hijiri's side. This is somewhat paradoxical.
• The reason why, while sharing Naito's POV, I almost always agree with Hijiri, is simple. In my experience over several articles of the two interacting, (Battle of Shigisan, Emperor Jimmu,Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Korean influence on Japanese culture ) I have found it impossible to edit with CurtisNaito. He gets almost everything wrong, and in trying to persuade him to see the error of his ways, one has to wade through endless WP:TLDR prevarication or sidestepping. Hijiri, on the other hand, understands (somewhat too obsessively at times) policy, and knows what good solid sourcing for an encyclopedia consists of. Curtis's knowledge of Japanese topics looks like that of a high school enthusiast with no sense of critical method. So, if the board wants to get rid of the graduate and promote the teenager's cause, there's little I can do, other than saying I am quite prepared to document Naito's consistent overwhelmingly tedious obtusity, mendacity and prevarication. He is, as demanded, extremely well-mannered, and is, excuse the violation, wholly incapable of understanding the simplest technical objections to his approach (i.e. dumb to all remonstrance). He is totally innocent of any contact with scholarship, which deals in hypotheses and complexities, and is never, as he is, confident that a statement in a source can, ipso facto, be used regardless of its status (dubious or challenged) in the subject's history. I have corrected Hijiri on several occasions, and he, on each occasion, steps back, apologizes, or reflects. No such luck with Curtis. He repeatedly asserts he has read sources he clearly has not (see here, here, or here. The last was particularly memorable: when I cited a scholarly article to rebut his statement, he replied in 20 minutes saying it was good but not long enough. Well, the article is behind a paywall, is 19 pages long. Only a genius with megabucks could pony up, download, read closely the source, and then make a cogent reply in that exiguous time-span. He even went on to justify his original point citing 植村清二's 神武天皇(1957) and 門脇禎's 神武天皇 (1957) while admitting he hadn't read them, as 'biographies'. Neither work is a biography of that emperor). He's a prevaricator, who reads google snippets fished up as he searches for confirmation of his POV, and then creates an inimitably urbane ruckus when challenged. Hijiri is evidently ueber-exasperated. Nothing will wear out a passive-aggressive temper on the other hand. If you want to keep Curtis, while dispatching Hijiri, get CN a masochistic babysitter who knows the ABC, however, and is ready to keep cleaning up CN's messes. He is a massive waster of other editors' time.Nishidani (talk) 09:55, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Hijiri88 has seen a lot of misconduct on these pages and those who have been opposing him there have been also involved in tag-team. I don't get if Hijiri88 should be topic banned. So many of these allegations have no links to actual discussion, and there is misjudgement of his actions. I am not going to support this topic ban. VandVictory (talk) 09:42, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I must agree with Johnuniq here. If you just look at the diffs provided in the opening statement, Hijiri is clearly rude, dismissive and incivil. But if you look beyond Hijiri's comments and look at the entire talk page, you will see several respected editors who are beyond frustrated with Naito's inadequate use of sources. He is unfailingly polite which is remarkable given the hostile exchanges but according to those who are knowledgeable about the subject, he lacks competency. So, while I don't think a page ban will resolve the dispute on this article talk page which is really about WP:RS and Hijiri's bad behavior seems to arise out of frustration with having the same discussions over and over again. That doesn't excuse the personalization of the dispute and rude remarks. But while a limited civility block might be in order for Hijiri, the dispute on this talk page needs to head to WP:RSN or WP:DR if it is going to be resolved. Giving Hijiri a page ban won't resolve other editors' dispute with Naito's sourcing problems. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 14:37, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

How can you tell who is "knowledgeable about the subject" though? I have contributed to the article far more than anyone else, so why don't I qualify as "knowledgeable about the subject"? I have contributed more "good" rated articles on Japanese history than all my critics combined.CurtisNaito (talk) 15:27, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@Liz:In regards to expertise on the subject, which version of the article is more professionally written and sourced, my version, or Nishidani's version?CurtisNaito (talk) 17:56, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I think we should distinguish between allegations and evidence though. So far no one has managed to find even one concrete case of me ever misusing sources. Every time these allegations are made I have to time and time again quote directly from the original citations to prove my case, and not once has the original source not lined up with the text being put in the article or mentioned in the talk page.CurtisNaito (talk) 14:53, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

'So far no one has managed to find even one concrete case of me ever misusing sources.' See. Curtis can't grasp that editors have shown time and again that this is mainly what you do. You cannot read sources in context, and anyone who has the patience to click on any of the pages I cited, and review how you respond, will see that you misuse sources constantly. It's not an allegation. I believe Hijiri and yourself should be sanctioned for different reasons: you are a living exemplar of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, and Hijiri's exasperation has led to several sanctionable instances of consistent WP:AGF. Perhaps I should be sanctioned also, since your resilent deafness in the fact of proof you cannot understand the subject has led me, twice, to tell you to 'piss off'. Son, you are a disaster on any Japanese article requiring sensitive or sophisticated use of sources, as most of these historical topics demand.Nishidani (talk) 15:05, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Could you please mention one example of me misusing sources? So far you haven't been able to cite even one specific incident.CurtisNaito (talk) 15:10, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I could give you dozens. But I am reluctant to get sucked into talking with you, because you simply ignore what others document, and keep focused on what interests you. See this thread where you are cited for repeatedly restoring the phrasing 'ancient phrase' to the text, by (a) misreading the very sources you cite and (b) by ignoring the fact that the phrase was coined in 1904. To make you understand this abuse or misuse of sources took donkey's ages. You don't even understand the point I made above. So I will have to repeat it and bold it.

(Curtis) is confident that a statement in a source can, ipso facto, be used regardless of its status (dubious or challenged) in the subject's history.

This means that if you've fished up a source then, regardless of other sources that show it is dated, wrong or misleading, you keep on harping on that source. No one with a smattering of a university education does that knowingly, and it is certainly obstinate to persist as you do over numerous threads, in defending your 'sources' when the problem with their selective use has been repeatedly deocumented. This is puerile obstinacy in the face of complex evidence, and is everywhere characteristic of selective source abuse.Nishidani (talk) 16:02, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

That was primarily a dispute over whether the phrase Hakko Ichiu was attributed to Emperor Jimmu. Analysis of the original Nihon Shoki and of more recent reliable sources left no doubt that the statement was correctly attributed to him. David Earhart's book Certain Victory: Images of World War II in the Japanese Media says "Emperor Jimmu... was said to have the phrase". Japan Encyclopedia defines Hakko Ichiu as "an expression attributed to the mythical emperor Jimmu". Kenneth Ruoff's book Imperial Japan at its Zenith says that Hakko Ichiu "was a saying attributed to Emperor Jimmu". Even one of the books you cited merely said that Tanaka Chigaku "popularized" it. Hijiri deserves more criticism here, because he insisted that Hakko Ichiu was not correctly attributed to Jimmu, while citing a source in the article that said close to the opposite, "When Emperor Jimmu founded the Japanese state 2,600 years earlier, the Japan Times and Mail explained, the land was inhabited by at least five different races. Jimmu declared that they should unite under 'one roof', and in obedience to that command the races became 'as brothers of one family'. Although the newspaper did not press the point, it was the same account of Jimmu extending his sway over the diverse peoples of ancient Japan, based on a passage in the earliest written chronicles of Japan, dating from the eighth century, which inspired Japan's World War Two slogan about the country's divine mission to bring all races and nations of the world under 'one roof'."CurtisNaito (talk) 16:09, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

You are using the usual stratagem of repeating yourself at length to blindside the simple fact, i.e. that you thought the phrase, coined, as many sources, plus an elementary knowledge of Japanese history should have told you, in 1904, was 'ancient'. Just let independent minds review the evidence, advice also I have given to Hijiri.Nishidani (talk) 17:42, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• Okay, finally got off that bus and can post a full response to all of the completely bogus claims and misrepresentations made by CurtisNaito at the top of this thread. Be warned, this is a big one.

Quotes from CurtisNaito's OP, put in their proper context (don't open unless you want the horizontal screen dimensions of the page to expand -- I don't know why -- and want to read through a VERY long response to a very long collection of half-truths and misrepresentations)

He says that he will not speak to me anymore regarding an on-going content dispute and will instead ask for me to be topic-banned. Yes. because I was merciful and waited much, much longer than I should have to ask for CurtisNaito to face consequences for his passive-aggressive actions against me, Nishidani and others. Before posting the above-linked comment I endured far more TLDR, IDHT nonsense than any good Wikipedian should be expected to bear. It's not my responsibility to give up my valuable time explaining how to read our core content policies or WP:V and WP:NOR to users who have clearly indicated that they will not listen even when I try. After two years, on-and-off, I've had just about enough of it. Other users expressed the exact same unwillingness to coddle CurtisNaito, before I did, so why I am being singled out is confusing. However, my edits are constructive and it's hard to see what justification there is for Hijiri's attitude here. Yeah. Right. I have yet to see someone other than CurtisNaito himself and a small group of other users with equally poor editing ability make this claim. Every single editor who has commented on the edits in question has agreed with me that they were problematic and showed a complete lack of understanding of proper sourcing principles. Nishidani, Sturmgewehr88 and I (and I can only assume countless other users who have interacted with CurtisNaito but not with me) have been forced to waste far too much time on the present talk page and others trying in vain to explain Wikipedia policy to CurtisNaito. I have been patient, taking WP:AGF too far in assuming that eventually CurtisNaito would cop on and come to understand, but to no avail. (Nishidani actually recently called me out for taking AGF too far in this matter.) There is good reason to believe that the greater problems lie with Hijiri. And what good reasons are these? Therefore, I am in turn requesting a topic ban for Hijiri from the article "Korean influence on Japanese culture" as a result of problematic behavior over the past year, including a very long-term pattern of incivility and battleground behavior. Actually, as I have said above and Nishidani has called me out for, I have been showing far too much patience with CurtisNaito. CurtisNaito has some nerve talking about "incivility" when he has been behaving in a manner that indicates he hasn't even read my comments, but rather spouts so much passive-aggressive nonsense that he knows it will push me over the edge, then he Ctrl+F's the page to see if I have used any foul language or made any "threats" against him. Although Hijiri has exhibited similar behavior in some other articles, cataloging it all would take too long, so I'll keep it relatively short and stick to issues relating to this one article. Yes, because on those other pages Curtis was entirely alone in his tendentious editing and misrepresentations of sources, but here he can selectively canvas the one other user who has agreed with him while carefully misquoting other users who don't (see the discussion below of "Incidentally, Hijiri was warned ..."). Recently the user TH1980 began to make some reliably-sourced additions to the article Korean influence on Japanese culture, but Hijiri immediately began edit warring with him without consensus to delete the material. (The first, "gugyeol" edit was total bullshit so I'm going to focus on the second, "Okura" edit.) This is turning WP:BURDEN and WP:BRD on their heads; consensus is not needed to revert a potentially controversial, and dubiously sourced, edit (which TH1980's edits most certainly were). But I even had a consensus, a very clear consensus on the relevant talk page last February to keep discussion of the Okura Immigrant Theory to a minimum. The consensus was formed by me, User:Shii, User:Sturmgewehr88 and a Japanese neto-uyo ultranationalist or two, one of whom was later indeffed for constant personal attacks he made against me because I actually accept the Okura Immigrant Theory. I did not like this consensus -- as I have stated countless times, I consider Okura to have almost certainly been the son of an immigrant from Kudara. The scholarly consensus is that Okura was the son of an immigrant from Kudara, but he wrote in Japanese and was "a Japanese poet", but on the main Wikipedia article on the topic I have already (over a year ago) become resigned to not being able to discuss this in detail. But at the same time as consensus decided that the main Yamanoue no Okura article should give only one line on the Okura Immigrant Theory and maybe cite some of the counter-arguments, someone was maintaining a WP:POVFORK over on the Korean influence on Japanese culture article that described him as "a Korean". This is a very complex issue, and one I have probably spent more time mulling over than anyone else on this project; CurtisNaito and TH1980, both of whom clearly lack the scholarly common sense to understand the problem, should not have tried to unilaterally override last February's established consensus. They also cited a general historical study written by a specialist in 20th-century Japanese history (if I recall, Miller -- a specialist in the relevant area -- was not brought into the discussion until after Nishidani and I brought him up). The opinions of a scholar of 20th-century Japanese history, no matter how well-regarded said scholar was, do not belong in a discussion of Yamanoue no Okura. As an aside, note CurtisNaito names and pings the users who agree with him but when he (mis)quotes the users who don't agree with them he carefully avoids mentioning their names lest they call him out for his misrepresentations (see the discussion of "Incidentally, Hijiri was warned ...", below). He reverted the same material TH1980 and I were adding five times in a 24-hour period. No. The fifth time was not a revert. And at the time CurtisNaito joined the fustercluck in question, TH1980 had already revert four times in 24 hours, I three. Immediately after my previous revert TH1980 and I were both at four reverts in the previous 24 hours (in other words, he had broken 3RR first and my fourth revert -- the only time I had legit violated a WP rule in this case, and then only technically -- was to revert an edit that itself was a 3RR-violation). And yet, despite this, Curtis chose to template my talk page for "edit-warring" and brought only me to ANEW to be blocked. Such blatant wikilawyering and battleground behaviour should have brought consequences, but I remained patient. My patience has since worn thin. While reverting, Hijiri made uncivil and false claims in his edit summaries, repeatedly accusing TH1980 of being a sockpuppet despite having no evidence to support his claim. Admittedly, I may have been wrong in these assumptions, and I have already stated that if I am wrong I apologize. But there is a confirmed history of sockpuppetry by Korean-nationalist POV-pushers in this area in general (and this article in particular), and several obvious sleepers have shown up suddenly in the past few months, to reinsert material that was removed from the article months before they ever edited it; when another account who has never edited the article before shows up suddenly and restores material that was removed months before they ever edited it, I have every right to be suspicious. And when I ask point-blank how they came across the article and they dodge the question, my suspicions are hardly allayed. Hijiri also made uncivil comments to him in the talk page, including asking TH1980, "Who are you, and which other accounts have you used?" Again, per the discussion in the paragraph immediately above this, when a user who looks very much like a sock and/or meat puppet shows up suddenly on a page and restores material that was removed months earlier, when other obvious socks have done so in the recent past, asking them to their face if they are a sockpuppet or if someone told them about the page off-wiki in order to artificially inflate "consensus" for their edits is completely acceptable, and in fact probably preferable to shooting first and immediately starting an ANI thread (DRN and the like are inappropriate places to bring up SOCK and MEAT concerns). If Hijiri was just having one bad day it would be different, but this has actually been going on for months and months. Yes. Nishidani, Sturmgewehr88, Phoenix7777, Ubikwit, Curly Turkey, Nihonjoe, Oda Mari, Canterbury Tail, User:SamuelDay1, User:Hipocrite, Eurodyne, probably several others I am forgetting, and I have all been pointing out for months (years?) that the article in question and related articles are a cesspool of sockpuppetry and POV/OR/TE. The fact that the article has been edited by CU-confirmed sockpuppets and recent activity is highly suspicious and probably meriting an SPI seems to constantly go over CurtisNaito's head even though every other long-term Wikipedian who has commented has agreed with me on the issue. To see how long this has been going on, consider that way back in June of 2014 Hijiri created an attack page in his sandbox. The page had no purpose but to defame other Wikipedia users who had edited the article Korean influence on Japanese culture as being "POV pushers" and "sockpuppets". This attack page still exists, and now TH1980 is also on the list, who Hijiri claims is an "anti-Japanese" sockpuppet. It needs to be stressed that Hijiri has offered no proof for his nasty accusations and none of these users were ever proven to have engaged in sockpuppetry. I have blanked my sandbox. It was not really a violation of WP:POLEMIC, since my goal in putting my findings on-wiki was to allow collaboration with the other users above-listed to help find the "smoking gun" so a CU can be requested. I have, thus far, failed to find any such smoking gun, and I have no problem with the page being deleted. I have copied its contents off-wiki, and I will continue my search in private. As demonstrated above, sockpuppetry has obviously been taking place, and 90% of users who have commented have agreed with this assertion, so trying to figure out who is whose sockpuppet and who contacted who off-wiki is an endeavour I still feel is worth pursuing. But I will keep future sleuthing to myself unless I am ready to open an SPI (or maybe an ANI if the evidence is good enough but I can't find the sockmaster). I imagine TH1980, as a Wikipedia user in good standing, wanted to play a productive role in editing the article, but how can he work with Hijiri when Hijiri assumes bad faith so openly that Hijiri repeatedly accuses him of being a sockpuppet to his face? He can tell me how he suddenly came across the article and restored material removed months before he ever touched the article -- during one of his long periods of absence. Additionally -- "a Wikipedia user in good standing"? He has made less than 500 edits, almost all of them in areas of international dispute between Japan and some other country. He has had an account for three years but has been editing in brief spurts before "going dark", the same as the other users who suddenly showed up on the page recently, who everyone else seems to agree are sockpuppets. I joined the conversation later and after making one constructive comment Hijiri immediately threatened me, telling me, "you need to be blocked per WP:CIR immediately". I'm surprised CurtisNaito has the courage to post a diff here, since he has blatantly hidden the conditional clause if you don't see how this is a misrepresentation of the source. Blocking users who don't know how to read sources per WP:CIR is quite common, and pointing out that if a user doesn't know how to read the source he is citing then he needs to be blocked is no more a "threat" when I say it as when Sturmgewehr88 and Nishidani say it. Also, "joined the conversation" is a very euphemistic way of describing this virtual declaration of war. Hijiri continued to speak to me in an uncivil manner, including his comments like "learn to speak frickin' English" and "Please learn to speak English". I know how to speak English, so how many times is he going to tell me that? He also said, "I was about to close this comment with "you bloody buffoon"". By saying this, he actually did close the comment with "you bloody buffoon". I challenge anyone on this board to engage CurtisNaito in a discussion of whether his sources are appropriate and whether they back up what he is saying for as long as I have and limit themselves to calling him something as polite as "bloody buffoon": User:Nishidani can back me up (has backed me up) on this point -- search the current version of the article talk page for "bullshit", "you can't read for nuts", "I'm fucked if I'm going to waste hours on this", "you're evidently having problems with elementary arithmetic", "for chrissake", "boorish googling", "I see crap", "for fuck's sake", "you shouldn't be editing Wikipedia", "I'll just revert", "talking to you is pointless", "consistently stupid or thick-headed", "piss off"... Of course none of this is to imply that sanctions need to be placed on anyone for reacting the same way I have, the same way all good Wikipedians would, on dealing with CurtisNaito. Place the sanctions where they belong. He told me, "Why can't you get it through your thick skull" that Yamanoe Okura was not a Korean, in spite of the fact that numerous reliable sources, including the Cambridge History of Japan and articles by Roy Andrew Miller, do describe him as "a Korean". When I thanked TH1980 for his edits, Hijiri left a threatening message on my talk page and told me to "grow the hell up". He then made a completely fallacious statement and told me "if you are too stupid to understand that ... well". He openly assumes bad faith when he tells me, "I am only agreeing to post this here... so that constructive discussion can take place on the talk page. You have already demonstrated that you are incapable of this." Per the above paragraph, this is quite a common, reasonable reaction to CurtisNaito's behaviour. Now take a look at this clearly-disruptive comment he posted directly into the article. Hijiri deleted a reliable source while claiming that it was "twisted to say what the Korean ultranationalists who still seem to be running this page wanted it to say". Leaving comments in the article source code to allow for (to encourage) further improvement is quite common. Please see WP:COMMENT. Actually, Hijiri seems to accuse everyone who disagrees with him of POV-pushing or having a hidden agenda. Another accusation made with no evidence whatsoever. I accuse the people who are POV-pushing and appear to have hidden agendas of POV-pushing or having a hidden agenda. I do not accuse Nishidani, Ubikwit, Sturmgewehr88, Shii or any of the other users I almost never agree with of POV-pushing or having hidden agendas. Hijiri claimed that the reason why a "Chinese influence on Japanese culture" article does not exist is because "Chinese nationalists are apparently not insecure enough that they need to go onto English Wikipedia and denigrate another country's culture". Well, CurtisNaito, why do you think there is no Chinese influence on Japanese culture article? Chinese culture has undoubtedly and indisputably had a much greater influence on Japanese culture over the past 1,500 years than has Korean, so how do you explain this discrepancy? At the same time in a related article he again called TH1980 a "Korean/anti-Japanese POV-pushing SPA" and called me an "incompetent user". Yes, I brought the discussion of whether Wikipedia should cover the Okura Immigrant Theory in more detail to the appropriate venue, the Yamanoue no Okura talk page. There, I gave my reasoning for suddenly showing up and starting another discussion of a topic that has been dead for over a year -- a POV-pushing SPA and an incompetent user were trying to cite a warped version of it in a separate article. He constantly accuses people who disagree with him of racism. He has accused both TH1980 and myself of "borderline racism". "Constantly"? I don't recall ever making this argument anywhere but where you, apparently a westerner of Japanese ancestry, and TH1980 were saying that a Japanese poet born (or at least raised from when he was a toddler) in Japan whose father had happened to come from an extinct Korean kingdom, who was naturalized in Japan to the point of receiving the title Omi and bring granted governorship of a province, was "a Korean in Japan". However, as the user Andrew Davidson said to Hijiri in one discussion about the article, "As for righting great wrongs, you seem to be the one on a mission". Again, why the selective pinging of the rare user who happens to agree with you, Curtis? When you quote (misuote, rather) Sturmgewehr88 below (see "Incidentally, Hijiri was warned...", below) you don't ping him. On top of all this, perhaps one of the most serious problems with Hijiri's conduct on the article is his constant use of intimidation and threats against people he disagrees with. I myself have been threatened by him with administrative action literally over a dozen times in this particular article, including on these two occasions among others... "you would probably need to be either banned or blocked. You managed to avoid this result last time", and "I would take you to ANI and ask for a topic-ban, but on what topic would such a ban be? ALL Wikipedia editors are permanently banned from "original research" to begin with. Is it a block you want?" What is notable about these two threats is that they were issued against me BEFORE I had even edited the article in question. I was threatened with administrative action only because I commented on the article. I have never been blocked from Wikipedia before, so there is no reason why I should have been threatened this many times. Incidentally, Hijiri was warned by another user about making threats against me on a different article, but despite this Hijiri can barely make a single post nowadays without threatening me with administrative sanctions. The "threats" he keeps referring to were actually warnings that if he kept up his pattern of passive-aggressive disruption there would eventually be consequences. I have been far too patient with him; now by shooting first he has forced my hand. Incidentally, Hijiri was warned by another user about making threats against me on a different article, but despite this Hijiri can barely make a single post nowadays without threatening me with administrative sanctions. This is a gross misrepresentation of User:Sturmgewehr88's attitude to this affair. Sturmgewehr88 agrees with me that CurtisNaito needs to be sanctioned for his behaviour here and elsewhere. At the time Sturmgewehr88 "warned" me, I had already grown terribly exasperated from interacting with CurtisNaito, while Sturmgewehr88 had only joined the discussion and wasn't at the time aware of the background of my "threats". CurtisNaito, it also should be noted, cunningly avoided using Sturmgewehr88's name or pinging him because he knew Sturmgewehr88, if notified of this discussion, would agree that CurtisNaito needs to be somehow sanctioned, while at the same time posting a preemptive notification on the talk page of the one other tendentious editor who has been misreading/misrepresenting sources right alongside CurtisNaito this time. Hijiri also has problems with using sources, which he often does not read before citing. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Perhaps most egregious of all was a whopping 1,000 word post he made rebutting an article which he admits at the beginning "I haven't read". It's a waste of others users time when Hijiri spends so long critiquing sources he hasn't even read. Pointing out that non-specialists with absolutely no training in the relevant fields should not be cited on Wikipedia articles does not require that one reads the work of said non-specialists. Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. It's a waste of others users time when Hijiri spends so long critiquing sources he hasn't even read. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. After being questioned about the matter by Nishidani, Hijiri admitted that he had deleted the sourced information because he had mistakenly believed that I was the one who had added it to the article. Hijiri notes here he was aware that it "violates AGF to assume Curtis has misread and misunderstood a source I haven't myself read". I think it's natural Wikipedia policy, however, that sources cited should be read and judged on their own merits. One shouldn't delete reliably sourced information just because one doesn't like the editor who puts it in the article, as Hijiri fully admits to doing here. No, by this point it is not at all a violation of any Wikipedia policy or guideline to assume that if CurtisNaito is quoting a source, he must be misquoting it, as Nishidani agrees.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:46, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

*Comment* Hijiri's conduct is a massive violation of the third principle (or "pillar") Wikipedia has for editing conduct: [135]. His conduct is also extremely childish.TH1980 (talk) 17:10, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• 'Support topic ban for Hijiri 88. BMK (talk) 17:45, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. It's difficult for a non-expert to judge the appropriate weight on this subject, but the latest revision by CurtisNaito gives the impression that Japan had no culture before looting it from Korea, with extreme statements like "According to Professor Song Bang-song, it was not the case that Korean music influenced Japanese music, but rather than Japan simply adopted Korean music in toto." I suspect the sources have been cherrypicked. Another silly line: "Korean K-pop and K-dramas have become popular in Japan and some Koreans even see Japan's veneration of Korean K-pop idols as being an acknowledgement by Japan of the dominant role Korea has played in influencing Japanese culture since ancient times." The (Korean) source for this states: "Thus, when the Japanese were showing their utmost adoration and respect to Yon-sama, it was felt as if the Japanese were finally accepting the fact that South Korea was a superior culture, as it was historically Korea that gave Japan its royalty, and passed on Buddhism, ceramics and so on from China often with a distinct Korean rendering as in the case of ceramics." I wouldn't say Curtis misrepresented the source, but why include such ridiculous nationalism about South Korea's "superior culture" at all in a serious historical study? We need editors with expertise to keep a check on this apparent POV pushing. Civility is a secondary concern. KateWishing (talk) 19:51, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, I figured since it was good enough to be mentioned in a peer-reviewed academic journal written by two scholars then it was good enough to be mentioned on Wikipedia. I thought it was useful because it tied in the history of Korean influence on Japan with modern-day events. A good chronological narrative should have a fitting conclusion indicating the on-going relevance of the issue.CurtisNaito (talk) 20:11, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support 6-month topic ban for both editors These two individuals are disruptive, one way or another.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 20:05, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

But surely my version was an improvement over the old version. My version had far more citations and better organization.CurtisNaito (talk) 20:27, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Boomerang for CurtisNaito

Okay, I have had just about enough of this, as have User:Nishidani, User:Sturmgewehr88 and probably plenty of others. Every uninvolved user who has gone through the diffs and the context behind them (User:Johnuniq, User:VandVictory and User:Liz) has observed that I am not deserving of sanctions here, and the users who are actually involved (User:Nishidani and User:Sturmgewehr88) have all agreed that sanctions should be placed on CurtisNaito instead. He has proven himself completely incapable of examining sources again and again on Talk:Soga–Mononobe conflict, Talk:Emperor Jimmu/Archive 2,Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Korean influence on Japanese culture and Korean influence on Japanese culture. He is incapable of examining sources, and his constant whining on talk pages and refusal to listen has been the cause of far too much wasted time on the part of me and other productive users. This pattern is especially blatant when it comes to articles on ancient (8th century and earlier) Japan; while a brief inspection of his other edits would indicate it seems to be a problem there as well (cf his recently defending a "respected scholar" who appears to be an infamous denier of the Armenian genocide), but that's not really my concern. He has wasted far too much good time on the part of far too many editors. Believe it or not when I posted this I still sincerely hoped it would not come to this. Curtis is a courteous and enthusiastic editor, and I suspect he and I share a lot of common interests and would be friends if we met in a pub; but he has wasted far too much of my time and energy on these talk pages, driving me far enough to use profanity (something I don't enjoy), and now he is actively seeking sanctions against me with only the flimsiest of reasons, so my hand has been forced.
So I'd like to propose a TBAN for CurtisNaito on articles related to Japanese history of the 8th century and earlier. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:46, 16 May 2015 (UTC) (Edited 14:50, 16 May 2015 (UTC) )

Also, since this discussion started turning against CurtisNaito, he and TH1980 have started edit-warring to include a massive amount dubiously-sourced and/or unsourced material into the Korean influence article. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:37, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support as nom. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:46, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Hijiri's accusations are ridiculous. Anyone knowledgeable on the subject of Korean influence on Japanese culture can see that CurtisNaito's use of sources is impeccable.TH1980 (talk) 16:20, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
  • • LOL. This impeccable judgement from someone who recently added: Edo Neo-Confucianism was based in substantial measure off Korean writings, especially the works of Yi Hwang,' which both screwed up the source, distorted English grammar, and grossly twisted a single thesis into a specious factoid about the actual scholarship on neo-Confucianism and Korea.Nishidani (talk) 17:42, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Consulting the original source made it clear to me that there was no problem with TH1980's addition. The original text said, "Neo-Confucian learning had made much progress in Korea, where the Yi dynasty had adopted it as the Korean official philosophy. Such leading Japanese philosophers as Fujiwara Seika (1561-1619) and Hayashi Razan (1593-1657) based their neo-Confucian learning on Korean writings, particularly those of Yi Hwang..."CurtisNaito (talk) 17:49, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Comment This has already been thoroughly analysed and rebutted on the page, and you had no answer. Further proof that Curtis knows nothing of the topic. The statement, as phrased, is fatuous, and only goes to show that neither Curtis nor have the slightest knowledge of the topic, since the thesis was rebutted in 1982, the rebuttal endorsed by other scholars. Even after that, he persists in repeating, as above, the meme he's googled. Maruyama Masao's groundbreaking 日本政治思想史研究 (Studies in the Intellectual History of Tokugawa Japan,) has no mention of Korea in its index. When the English version was published (1974) he, in the wake of Abe Yoshio ( 阿部吉雄)'s thesis, admitted this Korean Yi dynasty connection had been a blind spot (1974:xxxvi). In 1983 Willem Jan Boot substantially deconstructed the theory Curtis is still pushing. This illustrates my point. Curtis looks at a quote, and if he likes it, copies it, from a poor source, or out of context, as proof of a thesis, ignoring every consideration of context. Relieve him of his misconceptions by adducing later sources and corrections and he still keeps harping on it. He has a serious behavioural problem. He won't listen.Nishidani (talk) 20:17, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I strongly supported putting Willem Jan Boot's point of view into the article, but it's hard to believe that the theory of Korean influence on Japanese neo-Confucianism has been debunked. Ha Woobong's 2009 article "Kang Hang and Confucianism in Modern Japan" supports the theory of Korean influence on Japanese neo-Confucianism. Edward Chung's 1995 book "The Korean Neo-Confucianism of Yi Tʻoegye and Yi Yulgok" supports this argument. Marius Jansen's 2000 book, "The Making of Modern Japan" support this argument. The 2013 book "A Korean War Captive in Japan, 1597 1600" supports this argument. These books were all written after Willem Jan Boot's book and it's hard to believe that all these authors are really so ignorant.CurtisNaito (talk) 20:24, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

CurtisNaito posted the exact same non-argument as above on the article talk page four days ago, and was quickly rebutted by Nishidani.[136] This is an excellent example of CurtisNaito engaging in IDHT behaviour that causes the conversation to run in circles until the other user gives up in frustration and lets CurtisNaito have his way just to shut him up. Countless hours of labour have been expended trying to talk sense into CurtisNaito over these issues, but he just doesn't listen. These countless hours of labour should have been devoted to building an encyclopedia. How many more hours are going to be wasted on this problem user? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:21, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose as retaliatory, also as an example of Hijiri88's WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. BMK (talk) 17:43, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose as BMK said this is retaliatory. This section is a further reason of a need for a topic ban of Hijiri 88. Something needs to be done to protect WP from the numerous WP:CIVIL violations of Hijiri 88. Failure to act now will further embolden bad behaviour as there is no reason to stop the bad behaviour if nothing happens. AlbinoFerret 18:02, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
• Strong support - per Nishidani's comments and my own experience. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 19:14, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support 6-month topic ban for both editors These two individuals are disruptive, one way or another.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 20:03, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
• Both need to rethink what they are doing here, There is far too much litigation between the two over multiple articles. Naito knows nothing of the subjects or policy. Hijiri is far too sensitive, and must acquire some serenity. Curtis's tagteaming sidekick should be banned from the Korean article (see the recent edits of TH1980)Nishidani (talk) 20:26, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: Please read the discussion that has taken place above, or at least my OP remark in this subthread: if I had a BATTLEGROUND mentality, wouldn't I want to continue wasting time arguing with Curtis? I'm tired of arguing, as is everyone else who has had to deal with CurtisNaito (note Nishidani's apparent regret at having been driven several times to say "piss off"). Also, it can't be "retaliatory" when even Curtis's OP stated that I have been telling him this boomerang is coming this way for months (Ctrl+F the main thread for "threat", but do so after opening my above collapsed comment). It's time to end this the only way it can be ended without a block.

Sorry, your attitude problem is manifest in the inability to compromise or work to arrive at a consensus. In the past month, I've seen threads here about conflicts between you and at least four other editors, possibly more, and, according to you, it's always the fault of the other editor. That simply cannot be the case, you must have contributed to those conflicts in some way. I'm tired of seeing your name in report after report after report. BMK (talk) 03:33, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: Would you mind linking to those other threads so the casual reader can judge for themselves whether your assumption that I was responsible for all or even most of those incidents is right or wrong? Otherwise, merely assering that I must be a problem editor because I have had conflicts with other editors is pretty meaningless, since the same logic could be applied that they must be problem editors because they have had conflicts with me, Nishidani, User:Sturmgewehr88, etc. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:58, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, in fact, I would mind quite a bit, as I have no intention of being your marionette. Those who have followed your history will know exactly what I mean, others can at least take it as given that I believe what I say, even if I might (in their view) be mistaken, and others are, I assume, capable of doing their own research if they doubt me so intensely as to have me proved wrong. In the meantime, please do not ping me again, I will participate in this discussion at times of my choosing, not at your beck and call. BMK (talk) 04:20, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

@AlbinoFerret: Same as above: if I had a BATTLEGROUND mentality, I wouldn't want to stop wasting my time arguing with Curtis.

@Ubikwit: A 6-month TBAN from what? If you mean the originally-proposed "Korean influence" page-ban on me but to apply to both CurtisNaito and myself for six months, how do you propose CurtisNaito's previous disruption on the "Emperor Jimmu" and "Soga-Mononobe" pages, let alone everything else, be addressed? If you mean some broader TBAN, how do you justify TBANning me when pretty much everyone here agrees that the only sanctionable behaviour I have engaged in was some aggressiveness and foul language brought on by CurtisNaito's own passive-aggressive BATTLEGROUND mentality (as seen in his opening this thread in the first place) and his constantly ignoring everything everyone who doesn't agree with him says. Your recent edits to the article indicate you agree with me and Nishidani that CurtisNaito has been the one behaving disruptively, so ... what gives?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:37, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: Right, I should have specified the originally-proposed "Korean influence" page-ban.

The personal dispute between you two is a time consuming distraction, and your confrontational manner doesn't help, even if CN does misuse sources.

A 6-month break from a single article for the three of you would help others (basically Nishidani and me at this juncture) to not have to police the content, and hopefully give you some perspective about how not to engage.

I have a number of quality academic sources on the topic, but don't have time to contribute to the article, and there are probably other editors out there in a similar situation.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 04:08, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Topic ban for TH1980

This editor has been supporting CN's edits, etc., without adequate participation in the content creation process, and should be included if these articles are to be freed from the present disruption.

• Support, as proposer--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 20:13, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Nothing worthy of a ban is evident. AlbinoFerret 22:40, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - This is one of the weakest rationales for a topic ban I've ever seen, and there's been absolutely no evidence presented to support it. A mini-trout to Ubikwit for this poorly-considered proposal. BMK (talk) 23:11, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support - per previous comments about this user. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 23:23, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. No way. You said Th1980 didn't have adequate participation in content creation? Evidence suggests otherwise. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 02:46, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
• Interim support per above-demonstrated TE, EDITWAR, LAWYER, BATTLE, etc. etc. But I question whether a TBAN is really the best long-term solution here -- with all the tendentious SPAs/near-SPAs who show up suddenly and edit-war on that page, are we going to flood the already-bloated WP:RESTRICT list with TBANs for all of them? A block might be more appropriate. I also think arresting the small-time street thugs while ignoring the godfather he works for is probably not the best idea and Ubikwit's proposal there seems to be to give the godfather what he wants by shutting down this one shipment but consciously overlooking 90% of the other drug-trafficking operations going on. (Sorry for the somewhat obtuse metaphor. It broke down something bad at the end there.)

I would also like to ask BMK, AlbinoFerret and OhanaUnited why they are posting here when they clearly haven't read the above discussion? BMK and AlbinoFerret indicated above that they think trying to resolve a dispute in the most peaceful and restrained manner possible is "BATTLEGROUND behaviour", and OhanaUnited immediately above asserts that blindly reverting numerous times to a version of the article that was discontinued months before one ever edited counts as making a significant contribution to building the article; it's not a good-faith misunderstanding, as it was all discussed in great detail further up this same thread.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:04, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, is it not mandatory that the editors who participate in these discussion agree with your assessment of what it is and isn't important, nor do you get to choose who comments.

I suggest that you refrain from additional commentary, as your recent posts have only demonstrated the confrontational behaviors that you have been charged with. BMK (talk) 03:39, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Question from CuteOrangeKittyCat

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I have a few old IP addresses and accounts I no longer use. I would like to remove all logs such as block, page deletion, and editing logs. Is this something you can do? Thanks CuteOrangeKittyCat (talk) 22:37, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

As far as I know all of that is technically impossible, as in the software doesn't even allow for it. Howicus (Did I mess up?) 22:41, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I think its possible. I have seen edit summery get removed for being offensive. CuteOrangeKittyCat (talk) 22:46, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Ah, that was probably Revision deletion, but that has a very narrow set of criteria that it can be used for. I know edits can't be removed for copyright and licensing reasons, since Wikipedia's license requires that the authors be credited if it's reused, and you can't do that if you don't know who the authors were. Howicus (Did I mess up?) 23:07, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

See WP:VANISH and WP:CLEANSTART. However, note that "vanishing" is only available to permanently departing users who intend never to edit again using any account, not to those who would simply like to "start over" using a new account. A "clean start" does not include the removal of logs, etc. Dwpaul ^Talk 23:18, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

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JoesphBarbaro‎ on my talk page

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User:JoesphBarbaro‎ keeps blanking a conversation between us on my user talk page. I prefer to keep an easily accessible record of my interactions with other users, even if they appear to be unproductive. Since the user has ignored repeated and not-in-uncertain-terms requests to leave me alone, I'd like the user blocked from editing my page or otherwise contacting me again.

My interaction with this user started when I responded to these comments by JosephBarbaro that I thought were unnecessarily hostile and uncivil.

The user responded by blanking my comment three times ([137], [138], and [139]) before blanking the thread completely.

The user also started leaving hostile messages on my talk page ([140] and [141]). I asked the user to leave me alone and the user responded, "You're pathetic". The user then started blanking the message, each time with an insulting edit summary:

• "I hope you learn your lesson about sticking your nose on something that you know nothing or barely anything about. Have a nice day."
• "It's fairly obvious that I myself get to remove my own angry response and conversation that I started with you, no? Besides, weren't you yourself one who claim that I was "bugging you repeatedly over a single comment"? So my point stands."
• "Whatever. Keep being stupid and oblivious and denying everything I'm telling you. I'll keep on reverting you until you're blue in the face."

And finally, a revert with no edit summary. I find these courtesy blankings to be rather disingenuous, since he uses these edits as opportunities to continue the conversation after I repeatedly made clear that I prefer to archive my user talk page as I see fit. It bothers me that he explicitly states his unwillingness to compromise and respect my wishes. I just want this user out of my user talk page and deal with my talk page as I see fit. Mosmof (talk) 22:47, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

@JoesphBarbaro:, you are not allowed to blank another user's comments, least of all on their own talk page. Point in fact, the only place you would typically be allowed to do this is on your own talk page, since users are given a higher degree of latitude in controlling what content does or does not stay on their page (which makes your attempt to control Mosmof's user page a double whammy on the policy-violation front). Furthermore, several of your comments and edit summaries are in clearly in violation of our civility standards, which represent a pillar policy of this project and a non-negotiable requirement of your participation within it. If you continue engage in personal attacks or to hound Mosmof by altering his user page (in this case removing what seem to be perfectly civil and reasonable comments), it is likely that you will blocked from editing. Snow ^{let's rap} 23:02, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) User JoesphBarbaro has been admonished before about personal attacks. Their threat to edit war is problematic as it suggests a disregard for existing guidelines and they do not have the liberty to blank discussions from another user's talk page, but for certain exceptions. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:06, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I was just taking a more detailed look at his talk page and was about to come back to edit my post to that effect. From the comments there, it would seem that personal attacks are a not uncommon response of this user to content disputes. I hope that he recognizes this as a bright line situation and that this behaviour must desist if he wishes to avoid a block. Snow ^{let's rap} 23:14, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, this is totally unacceptable. I'd support a block for clearly violating WP:NPA. I don't think anything short of a block is likely to modify this editor's hostile behavior. --IJBall (talk) 01:56, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Blocked. This is completely unacceptable behavior. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 02:00, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

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Mass of undiscussed changes, heaps of heavy personal abuse if questioned

user:87.8.46.73 is on a massive campaign to change indications of Italian pronunciation across the board [142]. The pronunciations all link to Help:IPA for Italian and the consensus has been to use these symbols. The IP insists on using other symbols, not found in the article to which we link and unlikely to be known outside the linguistic community. The IP also deletes content and sources [143], [144]. I've tried to first encourage them to explain their edits [145], then explaining why we use the normal IPA [146]. I thought my comments polite and instructive, but the first response was to vandalize my talk page with very explicit language [147], followed up by edit summaries like I hate Jeppiz [148], [149]. The personal abuse is way past WP:NPA and the mass changes of the established IPA (combined with the blankings) is problematic as it makes a large number of articles less accessible to readers. I thought I could explain this to the user, I did not expect this hate campaign. This user is WP:NOTHERE to work with others.Jeppiz (talk) 01:36, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Links: 87.8.46.73 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --IJBall (talk) 01:50, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks IJBall , I forgot that. I did inform the user, though.Jeppiz (talk) 01:59, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Certainly he is remarkably belligerent. He also seems to have some knowledge of IPA (not that this excuses the belligerence or unilateralism). Having this knowledge of IPA, we can expect that he'll be in a position to proffer a rational and persuasive argument for his (remarkably narrow) transcription, and get agreement for this before he continues. But if he instead keeps on his present course, block. -- Hoary (talk) 05:26, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Note: The user seem to now be at the IP 79.31.254.235 (talk · contribs). Deor (talk) 13:20, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, obviously the same user. This is problematic. We have well-established rules for how to use WP:IPA and this user just give damn. And his"Fuck you" is response to politely being informed about rules does not promise well.Jeppiz (talk) 13:39, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Commenting as somebody with a reasonably expert knowledge of how IPA works: if I look at edits like that at Venice, where the anon insisted on changing "veˈnɛttsia" to "veˈnɛt̪͡ːs̪jä", I can see why some linguists might prefer the second version over the first. However, I'm troubled by his subsequent comment to Jeppiz [150], not so much because of the "F" word, but because he was claiming the original version was "not the correct pronunciation". That shows that despite his apparent insistence on technical details he really doesn't know what he's doing at all – anybody with an adequate knowledge of IPA would realize that both transcriptions describe the same pronunciation; the one is somewhat more precise (a "narrow transcription" as opposed to a "broad" one), but claiming that the broad transcription represents a "wrong" pronunciation is just daft. So much for the AGF assumption that the anon might be some potentially valuable expert editor who merely has an anger management issue. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:41, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Future Perfect at Sunrise gave what amounts to a final warning a few minutes after leaving this message, but the IP kept on going, so I've blocked it for 24 hours. If the person comes back with a different IP address, don't worry about warnings; s/he knows that we want discussion, so unless s/he starts discussing, just reblock for block-evasion. Nyttend (talk) 02:13, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks

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El Bayon has attacked me at my talk page claiming to be "paying back". I was at fault a few days ago, thats true, but his behaviour is not right either. Bolonenk (talk) 13:52, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

The harassment is continuing... Bolonenk (talk) 13:57, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Aside from the annoyance, is the sniping preventing anyone from editing? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:58, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I suggest to indef both users, since none of them seems to have any useful contributions (I mean, really zero).--Ymblanter (talk) 13:59, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

cry babies everywhere, i must wage my war im let alone in this by admins who did not block bolo three days agoEl Bayon (talk) 14:09, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Its not right to indef me now as I got warned three days ago and i have not done wrong since. El bayon is now attacking me.Bolonenk (talk) 14:11, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Shut up you, you abuser, you are nothing but abuser.El Bayon (talk) 14:13, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@El Bayon: You're not helping your case by calling people cry babies, telling the user to shut up and claiming them to be an abuser. You seriously deserve a block. You're blatantly disregarding WP:NPA Callmemirela (Talk) 14:18, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

This time Im innocent. Bolonenk (talk) 14:15, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I told you to shut up. Do as i say or you get banned.El Bayon (talk) 14:19, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

These users seem to have made no edits that are not just insults directed at the other. It makes no sense unless they are one and the same person playing a very very childish game. Paul B (talk) 14:20, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Which is most likely the case.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:22, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Obviously the same person just trolling ANIJeppiz (talk) 14:25, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

that's true, i have created several accounts for vandalism, sorry i thought you'd realize this already three days agoBolonenk (talk) 14:29, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

WTF?! Okay, yeah. You both deserve to be blocked indef. This is purely a childish and immature game. Callmemirela (Talk) 14:31, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

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Lachlan Foley genre warring

• Lachlan Foley (talk · contribs)

Leading up to March, the editor was making disruptive edits to music articles, genre warring specifically, and after this revision to an album article, they were blocked. I noticed a few days ago they had continued genre warring when a number of album articles I have on my watchlist showed similar changes, including some of the same articles they had been warned for disrupting in the past.

• 01:08, 12 May 2015 at Daydream Nation
• 01:11, 12 May 2015 at Sister (Sonic Youth album)
• 01:12, 12 May 2015 at Sonic Nurse
• 01:12, 12 May 2015 at Murray Street (album)
• 01:12, 12 May 2015 at The Eternal (album)
• 01:52, 15 May 2015 at Human After All
• 01:56, 15 May 2015 at Discovery (Daft Punk album)
• 00:00, 16 May 2015 at The Fat of the Land
• 03:33, 16 May 2015 at Blow Up (EP)

I suppose because these articles receive little-to-no attention, the editor's changes were not noticed by anyone else. Dan56 (talk) 15:07, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

The only diffs that truly bother me are the last few. The first five are petty genre warring that I would probably just ignore unless they were part of a long-term issue. The sixth and seventh ones removed a reliable source and replaced it with original research. The eighth looks like edit warring to maintain original research. The last one looks like it removed a dead link in violation of WP:KDL. The review is archived at the Internet Archive, which he should have checked before removing it. Although WP:INFOBOXREF discourages citations in infoboxes, that does not mean that you can strip out citations and replace them with original research. Personally, I'd be satisfied with a statement that he's not going to genre war any more. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:24, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

The first few are part of a long-term issue; see "general update" to Daydream Nation on 5 December 2014, this revision to Sister (Sonic Youth album) on 19 March 2015. Dan56 (talk) 21:53, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism account

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I am reporting this account for vandalism and an odd edit to my talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/208.54.40.172. No, I did not directly engage this person because I am busy editing for the good of the encyclopedia. I will post the required notice. Thank you for any help you can give. Yours, BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 17:09, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

This is not vandalism. This is a user that has now left their sig on your talk page trying to let you know that they have emailed you and it is an established editor. That is the first edit that IP has had in over a year and it is a mobile provider. If you did have vandalism to report it would be at WP:AIV.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 17:46, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment The last edit from this IP address was 2 months ago, in which they left you a message regarding an email they had sent you. Where is the vandalism? JZCL 18:19, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

It was today...May 16, but I agree with you. :)
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 18:59, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

D'you know what, I think I must be going mad, I'm sure that it said March 16 last time I looked?! Anyway, my second point is still valid (I hope!). Thanks for pointing that out! JZCL 19:16, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

All of the IP's edits (except for the last one) are vandalism. However, they're old enough that they should be ignored; as Berean Hunter notes, this is a mobile IP address, so we can't assume that the most recent edit was made by the person/people who made the previous edits, i.e. sanctions for the past vandalism would be badly out of place. Nyttend (talk) 02:07, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

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