Talk:The Shadow over Innsmouth

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 08:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The Shadow over Innsmouth → The Shadow Over Innsmouth – Capitalization fix.

Based on my sources, "Over" in title should be capitalized. For example, see The Locus Index to Science Fiction and the definitive Arkham House version in The Dunwich Horror and Others (see Contents).
-,-~^R'lyehRising~-,- 22:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Zadok Allen

Zadok is killed by Dagon after he blabs about the town to Robert. I can confirm this by pulling out an old article about Lovecraft which has a synopsis of the story in it. I've added this to the article.65.255.130.104 21:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Surely you should be able to confirm this by looking at the story itself? It's available online. john k 02:29, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Zadok is named after a priest of Israel . . . in one of the Kings. 68.31.45.54 (talk) 09:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)Ascaris[reply]

Other appearances - Gilman

"The hotel owner in the game is named Gilman, an obvious reference to the stories protagonist. "

This seems like a mistake to me. In Lovecraft's story Gilman was, in fact, the name of the hotel owner (just like in the game, apparently), not of the protagonist.

Perhaps it was meant to read along the lines of "the hotel owner in the game is named Gilman, an obvious reference to the hotel which the story's protagonist stayed at." I believe it's actually called the Gilman Hotel. 75.108.205.201 23:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You believe correctly. --MwNNrules (talk) 00:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've always thought that "Gilman" might be a pun on gilled man by Lovecraft, you know, since the Deep Ones and people of Innsmouth are humanoids with gills. There's probably no way to cite it of course since Lovecraft never actually announced it to be pun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.82.214.52 (talk) 16:38, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Racism and xenophobia

As much as I love this story, shouldn't Wiki discuss the racism and anti-immigrant xenophobia both in the story itself and that obvious inspired it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.21.167 (talk • contribs) 06:34, 22 February 2009‎ (UTC)[reply]

A prequel?

I just wanted to ask if the "though the game takes place several years prior to the book and with a different protagonist, and could be considered a prequel" part about Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth should be removed? Since characters like Zadok Allen for example and most of the town get killed in the game, there is no way it could be considered as a prequel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.89.48.250 (talk) 14:48, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (non-admin closure) — Amakuru (talk) 11:57, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Shadow Over Innsmouth → The Shadow over Innsmouth – Wikipedia style conventions for capitalization, per WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CT. JHunterJ (talk) 20:55, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support, as nominator. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:56, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:NCCAPS. Deor (talk) 13:19, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 3

I'm sorry, but I honestly cannot find any sources whatsoever that lists the title with the lowercase "o", including especially the official site of Lovecraft. Conventions are all well and good, but in this case, it's inaccurate. Also, only two people supported the change, and it was still implemented? - Cartoon Boy (talk) 10:08, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To be moved does not require a quorate, nor a majority vote, only that correct policies are being applied. In controversial cases a re-listing for more opinions may occur but when it looks straightforward that is probably not needed. There is a process for reviewing moves - its focus is whether the administrator carried out the process correctly. GraemeLeggett (talk) 16:57, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly spent less than a minute Googling this one: http://books.google.com/books?id=yQv0AAAAQBAJ&pg=PT18&dq=the+shadow+over+innsmouth&hl=en&sa=X&ei=B9-xUomDFOm0yAGvxoCADw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=the%20shadow%20over%20innsmouth&f=false . Conventions are all well and good and accurate. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:45, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, then what needs to happen is a complete re-working of all Lovecraft-related articles and templates (including the media template) that include this, so as not to have countless re-directs, and title misspelling. So far, I see pretty much only Lovecraftian horror has been fixed. - Cartoon Boy (talk) 1:07, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 4

It has been proposed in this section that The Shadow over Innsmouth be renamed and moved to The Shadow Over Innsmouth.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Links: current log • target log • direct move

The Shadow over Innsmouth → The Shadow Over Innsmouth – Fix capitalization of title in line with MOS:CT. Published versions use inconsistent capitalization (e.g. here[1] vs. here[2] (see TOC), but MOS:CT is very specific that "Over" should be capitalized in the title - it is an adverb, not an article or preposition. --Relisted. Andrewa (talk) 02:49, 20 May 2014 (UTC) KarlM (talk) 22:24, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. It's a preposition. The shadow is over something, and the something it is over is Innsmouth. The object of the preposition is Innsmouth, and "over" is a preposition. -- JHunterJ (talk) 01:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ah shit, you're right. It still doesn't change that it looks stupid and is inconsistent with the majority usage. KarlM (talk) 23:21, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per MOS:CT. Deor (talk) 17:35, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. There's something wrong with MOS:CT when we capitalise the U in Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea but not the O in The Shadow over Innsmouth, contrary to popular usage. Perhaps it should say Prepositions containing only one syllable rather than Prepositions containing four letters or fewer... latest usage seems to be more logical than the well-established rule of thumb. Meantime plead WP:IAR and fix this title both as an improvement and as an example of what MOS:CT should say, although it doesn't. Andrewa (talk) 08:14, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Under" has five letters; "over" has four. Changes based on the number of syllables (or even, as I've suggested, exhaustively listing the prepositions that WP capitalizes and doesn't capitalize) are fine, but under the current consensus, "over" is not capitalized, and since the popular usage is split, there should be no issue with following our house style. Since popular usage is split, WP:IAR here wouldn't improve the encyclopedia. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:29, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree. Consensus can change. To appeal to existing guidelines as current consensus completely misunderstands (current) policy, and if we adopted that methodology, no policy or guideline would ever change. You have addressed neither my point nor that of KarlM. Andrewa (talk) 19:36, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree. The existing guidelines were discussed and consensus reached. Consensus can change, but not through trying to force through a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, as was recently illustrated. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:05, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is of course true that The existing guidelines were discussed and consensus reached (and also that "Under" has five letters; "over" has four), did that really need to be said? Please do not accuse me of trying to force through a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, whatever that may mean. Please also note that the policy to which the local consensus shortcut you provide links does not currently [3] use the term local consensus at all, and for good reasons.

You seem to feel very strongly that my post above was not a good way to explore a possible exception and/or change to the guideline. Reasons? Andrewa (talk) 01:13, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As an admin, you should know that if one wants to change a guideline, one tries to gain a consensus for doing so on the talk page of the guideline (in this case MOS:TITLE or MOS:CAPS), not in an individual move discussion. A consensus for "Over" here would result only in undesirable inconsistency in the encyclopedia. Deor (talk) 04:02, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Majority usage

It's claimed above that the lower-case "O" in over is inconsistent with the majority usage. I think we need to examine the evidence for or against this. Andrewa (talk) 02:49, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Where to from here

As JHunterJ points out above, the current guideline is not to capitalise the "O". If this does turn out to be contrary to majority usage in this case, and if as a result we arrive at a rough consensus here that it would improve Wikipedia to capitalise the "O" (two big ifs), where should we go from here? Andrewa (talk) 02:49, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]