Talk:Ashot Nadanian

Review of Ashot Nadanian

This review is done in the scope of the WikiProject Chess and is transcluded from Wikipedia:WikiProject Chess/Review/Ashot Nadanian. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nomination by MrsHudson
I would like to nominate Judit Polgár and Ashot Nadanian articles for A-class. I believe they are good enough. What do you think? --MrsHudson (talk) 21:00, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Review by SunCreator

Possible. For Judit Polgár the Illustrative games section is unreferenced. For Ashot Nadanian the notable games is poorly referenced and there is no reason to believe they are 'notable' as such. Also why is the Washington Post excerpt not a WP:COPYVIO. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 13:08, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Polgar's notable games are placed in the relevant section of her chessgames.com page. So they are probably notable. As for Nadanian, only the Bologan game is in the "Notable games" section of chessgames.com. But the Wu Shaobin game is well-known and has been published in several places, in particular in the "Genius in the Background" book by Karolyi. The game with Gurgenidze was published with Nadanian's annotations in chessville.com and he considers it as "one of my most memorable". Not sure about copivio (Washington Post). Looks OK to me, as it's just a small excerpt and author's name is mentioned. --MrsHudson (talk) 13:49, 21 October 2010 (UTC) I have fixed the problem with notable games in both articles. --MrsHudson (talk) 18:12, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Review by Yegishe
Support A class. The article is very informative, well structured and fully sourced. -- Yegishe (talk) 14:37, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Review by SyG

I checked the external links and found no problem. SyG (talk) 13:00, 28 December 2010 (UTC) Would it be possible to give more background on his family ? Has he sisters or brothers ? What was the profession of his parents ? Just a bit of context... SyG (talk) 13:51, 28 December 2010 (UTC) Would it be possible to know if his opening inventions have impacted chess ? I mean, are there reputable champions that use the Nadanian invention, or is it just a self-inflicted pain ? I think the notability is different. SyG (talk) 14:25, 28 December 2010 (UTC) Unfortunately I could not find any information about his parents, sisters or brothers. There are plenty of articles and analysis devoted to Nadanian Variation and it has been played by world-class players such as Viktor Korchnoi, Bu Xiangzhi, Walter Browne, Smbat Lputian... Regards, --MrsHudson (talk) 14:54, 28 December 2010 (UTC) I have viewed the article once again and with the additions you have done I think it is fine, so I support A-class. SyG (talk) 14:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Review by I Do Care
Support. I have contributed a bit to the article. It has had an amazing improvement thanks to MrsHudson. After the copyediting by SyG, there seems to be little left to change. I Do Care (talk) 11:48, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Conclusion by SyG
All remarks and concerns expressed by the reviewers have been dealt with appropriately. More than three approvals have been gathered (Yegishe, SyG, I Do Care). So I shall close this review and pass the article to A-class. SyG (talk) 14:15, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ashot Nadanian/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Philcha (talk) 21:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi, SyG, it's good to see you again. I'll start comments soon. --Philcha (talk) 21:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll mark  Done comments when I think they're resolved, highlight  Not done any that are unresolved when most others are done, and strike out any of comments that I later decide are mistaken. I'll sign each of my comments, so we can see who said what - please do the same.

I'll mark the review {{inuse}} when I'm working on it, as edit conflicts are frustrating. If you think I've forgotten to remove {{inuse}}, please leave a message at my Talk page. Please free to use {{inuse}} with your own signature when you're working.

Coverage

• Y I note that Nadanian "possesses enormous chess potential, but he was not able to find enough time to work professionally on his chess" (lead and "Playing strength and style"). Why could Nadanian not support himself through chess and how did he support himself - especially as he now has a family? --Philcha (talk) 11:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Structure

• Y In most chess bios, "Notable games" is the last section as it can be quite long, and I hope this article will have more games in time. --Philcha (talk) 11:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Done. (moved section "Notable Games" down.) --MrsHudson (talk) 17:44, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Early years

• Y "Born on 19 September 1972 in Baku, Azerbaijan SSR, then Soviet Union ..." is ambiguous for younger readers born since the fall of the Soviet Union - it may mean Nadanian was born in Baku but moved immediately to (some other part of) the Soviet Union. How about e.g. "... which then was part of the Soviet Union ..."? --Philcha (talk) 11:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Done (changed to "which then was part of the Soviet Union"). --MrsHudson (talk) 17:44, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

• Y I don't see that Exclusive Interview with International Master Ashot Nadanian supports his birth date. --Philcha (talk) 11:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Done (added source). --MrsHudson (talk) 17:44, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

• Y You call The Voiceless Old Man a "short story", and "short story" to me means fiction. But as far as I can see, The Voiceless Old Man is a short article by Nadanian about how he played Makogonov. --Philcha (talk) 11:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Done. (changed "short story" to "article") --MrsHudson (talk) 17:44, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

• Y In "In one of these park-battles ...": (OK --Philcha (talk) 07:31, 7 April 2011 (UTC))
  • Y As Exclusive Interview with International Master Ashot Nadanian is WP:SPS, you should make it clear that this sentence Nadanian's recollection. --Philcha (talk) 11:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I changed it. SyG (talk) 13:47, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

• • Y Nadanian played against a mysterious, silent, deadly stranger (cue music), who turned out to be Makogonov. --Philcha (talk) 11:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean? --MrsHudson (talk) 17:58, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The article says "In one of these park-battles he reminded he had a chance to play ...", which can mean that he missed the opportunity. How about e.g. "He remembers that in one of these park-battles he played ..." --Philcha (talk) 21:49, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I have changed to "He remembers that in one of these park-battles he played against a mysterious, silent stranger who turned out to be the highly-respected chess champion Vladimir Makogonov." --MrsHudson (talk) 06:19, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Chess career

• Y As far as I can see, The Week in Chess 260 supports only the 1999 Armenian Chess Championships, not the 1997 or 1998 . --Philcha (talk) 11:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I have added a source for all three championships. --MrsHudson (talk) 18:08, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. --Philcha (talk) 21:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

• Y In "in the 32nd Chess Olympiad in Yerevan 1996, where he lives, ...", I think "where he lives":
  • Y is in the wrong place. Probably better in "Family". --Philcha (talk) 11:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Y needs a citation and e.g. "as of (date in citation)". --Philcha (talk) 11:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Done. (moved "lives in Yerevan" to the "family" section and added source)

• Y The link cited for "European Individual Chess Championship in Saint-Vincent 2000", Ruschess.com, says "ruschess.com expired on 03/24/2011 and is pending renewal or deletion." You should see if there's a back-up at Internet Archive, see instructions at User:Philcha#Tools. If you can't find a back-up at Internet Archive or find another source, you must remove the content, per WP:V. --Philcha (talk) 11:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Done. (added archieved version of the Ruschess.com link) --MrsHudson (talk) 06:42, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

• • That's not how to do it. url= should have the initial, dead link; add archiveurl= url of archived version and archivedate= date from Internet Archive's "calendar" from this source. --Philcha (talk) 15:44, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I have fixed the problem. --MrsHudson (talk) 17:57, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

• Y Before asking for a GA review, you should use User:Dispenser/Checklinks to check for dead links and links that no longer contain what you expect (usually flagged by 301 or 302 redirect codes). I recommend you make a copy of User:Philcha#Tools, either in your own page or at WP:CHESS. By the way, ruschess.com passes User:Dispenser/Checklinks but is unusable - nothing's perfect :-( --Philcha (talk) 11:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I have performed Checklinks and there does not seem to be any broken link anymore. SyG (talk) 14:36, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

• I was checking another article, so I checked you article. A few items lack the usual information - author, publisher, date, (:-D) accessdate. Otherwise looks OK so far, except for Ruschess.com. --Philcha (talk) 13:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I have fixed those I could. All links seem to work now. SyG (talk) 14:35, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

• Y I also checks for DAB titles, and OK. --Philcha (talk) 13:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
• Y I copyedited:
  • Y "7th-11th places among 72 participants" to "7th-11th places out of 72 participants" --Philcha (talk) 16:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Y"His other performances include notably:" --Philcha (talk) 16:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
• Y Moscou 2002 - Aeroflot Open does not support "one of the strongest open tournaments of all times, with 82 grandmasters out of 132 participants", and says there were 130 competitors. --Philcha (talk) 16:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Done. (deleted "one of the strongest open tournaments of all times, with 82 grandmasters out of 132 participants") --MrsHudson (talk) 20:44, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Playing strength and style

• Y While Chessmetrics lists the ups and downs of players' careers and is the best resource for historical players, Nadanian lising has not been updated since the end of 2004 (and Viswanathan Anand was last updated in Oct 2004. So Chessmetrics is now out-of-date. It seems the rating scene is changing - The Deloitte/FIDE Chess Rating Challenge (20.02.2011). Viswanathan Anand#Rating uses Elo as well. Chessville - IM Ashot Nadanian, FIDE Chess Trainer is largely based on WP, it says "On the March 2010 FIDE list his Elo rating is 2433" - is there an independent source for this? FIDE's Rating Progress Chart - Nadanian, Ashot may help. In fact I suggest you omit Chessmetrics and summarise the FIDE table. --Philcha (talk) 16:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I have added a sentence about FIDE best rating. SyG (talk) 14:43, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I edited "uses a different ladder" to "uses a different scale" - isn't English fun? --Philcha (talk) 15:44, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

• Y "He likes to create fresh, atypical positions straight from the opening, often employing bizarre maneuvers to achieve his goals. Uncommon chess openings have always been a part of his repertoire (e.g. Sokolsky Opening,[28] Budapest Gambit)" appears to an editor's comment not supported by citations from good sources - see Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources. --Philcha (talk) 16:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Done. (I think we can use here ChessBase Mega Database as a source). --MrsHudson (talk) 17:43, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

ChessBase Mega Database doesn't have the usual backing info - author, publisher, editor, etc. - but I googled and New in Chess and Mega Database 2011 (PC-DVD): London Chess Centre show that Mega Database is a major resource. --Philcha (talk) 15:44, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

• Y Who is the common chess "father" of Nadanian and Kasparov? --Philcha (talk) 16:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

The article says: Tibor Karolyi devoted a chapter to him in his 2009 book Genius in the Background and jokingly called him "Kasparov's Half-Brother", implying not only that both Kasparov and Nadanian had the same trainer in Alexander Shakarov, but also the similarities of their playing styles. In particular, Karolyi emphasizes their ability to implement effective ideas on the edge of the board, attributing this to the influence of their common chess "father". So the common chess "father" is Alexander Shakarov. --MrsHudson (talk) 18:15, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I copyedited - what do you think? --Philcha (talk) 11:19, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

It's fine to me. --MrsHudson (talk) 17:43, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Chess theoretician

• Y I think "Nadanian has contributed analysis to many chess publications throughout the world including the Chess Informant, New In Chess Yearbook, 64, Kaissiber, Szachy Chess" needs citation(s). --Philcha (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

He has definetely contributed for above mentioned publications but I do know how it should be cited. If for example he has written several articles for NIC, which of them should be cited? --MrsHudson (talk) 18:20, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

You can put any number of citations in 1 <ref>...</ref> - see e.g. the long list after "... began in 1866, when he beat Anderssen, or in 1886, when he beat Zukertort" in Wilhelm_Steinitz#The_beginning_of_Steinitz.27s_reign. --Philcha (talk) 19:02, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I have added all necessary sources. --MrsHudson (talk) 20:13, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. --Philcha (talk) 21:34, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Chess coach and second

• Y In "Having graduated from the chess department of Armenian State Institute of Physical Culture in 1994,[5] Nadanian carries out an activity of a trainer":
  • the citation should be at the end. --Philcha (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Y the citation does not say Nadanian study only or even mainly chess. --Philcha (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Y The phrasing is clumsy. How about e.g. "After Nadanian graduated from the Armenian State Institute of Physical Culture in 1994, he became a chess trainer"? --Philcha (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Done. --MrsHudson (talk) 06:42, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

• Y In "He is the youngest Honoured Coach of Armenia[41] (the title awarded when he was 26 years old)", you should re-phrase to avoid the parentheses. --Philcha (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I changed the sentence. SyG (talk) 14:47, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

• Y I don't think Armenian Chess Players: Ashot Nadanian is a "reliable source" in WP terms. Blogs are tricky - some are entirely WP:SPS (some nobody's opinion), while some publishers of major newspapers etc. use blogs to show content they can't accommodate in the print editions, and the lead section is by a recognised journalist (so the journalist's content is "reliable source" but reader's comments are not). Bottom line: you need another source to say that Nadanian coached Davit G. Petrosian. --Philcha (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Done. (I could not find any "reliable source" regarding Davit G. Petrosian, so I removed this info) --MrsHudson (talk) 20:44, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

• Y I'm afraid Ashot Nadanian (at angelfire) is not a good source for "he worked as the National Team Coach of Kuwait." --Philcha (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Done. (here instead of angelfire.com I used a solid Armenian news website in Russian language). --MrsHudson (talk) 20:44, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I WP:AGF. --Philcha (talk) 11:19, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Notable games

• The format of moves, crucial point and final position is OK for 2 games, but will have to change if more are added. The usual format is a short description and a link to the playable game at chessgames.com, but at present chessgames.com has nothing about Nadanian. I note than Wu Shaobin–Nadanian, Singapore 2006 is at chess.com, so perhaps chess.com may have Nadanian–Sakaev, ICC 2001. --Philcha (talk) 20:57, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
• Y At Nadanian–Sakaev, ICC 2001, I can't find the page at Internet Chess Club's database. I think you need clearer instructions. --Philcha (talk) 20:57, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Only registered users can use the ICC searchable database. When you type "sea April24-1915 K-Sakaev" the program shows all the games played by Nadanian and Sakaev. --MrsHudson (talk) 21:08, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll WP:AGF - I'm not going to register as my registrations file is long enough. --Philcha (talk) 11:19, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Other chess activities and hobbies

• Y You have 2 copies of the citation for A tale of seven knights, after "where in a final position white wins with a king and knights only" and again after ""a hippophile chess composer". --Philcha (talk) 09:04, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I have regroupes these two. SyG (talk) 15:01, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I have restored these two ChessBase links, as they are different and only second page supports "a hippophile chess composer". --MrsHudson (talk) 18:02, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

• Y I don't see that A tale of seven knights supports:
  • Y "He is particularly attracted by the problems, where in a final position white wins with a king and knights only" - the 7 examples on that pages show white winning with a king and knights only, but those are just 7 of Nadanian's 50-plus puzzles, and the page's text does not comment on this. --Philcha (talk) 09:04, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Y "Whilst two knights cannot force checkmate against a lone king, they can do so in some exceptional cases when the defender has other pieces and even a turn to move". --07:17, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I did a minor copyedit and added a source. --MrsHudson (talk) 17:53, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The ChessBase article shows that Nadanian is fond of this "knights theme".

Ashot sent us the following article on his infatuation with knights.

I would like to talk about an interesting idea which fascinated me in 2003.

A few months ago I remembered it and decided to return to the idea of the checkmate with two knights.

Not satisfied and still obsessed with the knight I decided to look for something even more beautiful.

How we can emphasize his passion for knights? --MrsHudson (talk) 18:50, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

• • Y "a hippophile chess composer" --Philcha (talk) 21:56, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
• Y "hippophile" needs explanation. I suggest citing Webster's Online Dictionary: Hippophile. --Philcha (talk) 09:04, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I have linked the term to Webster. SyG (talk) 15:18, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

• Y I'm concerned about "His handles on the Internet Chess Club are "SERGIRINA" and "April24-1915" - see WP:BLP. I'd remove it. --Philcha (talk) 09:04, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I have removed it. SyG (talk) 15:20, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Family

• Y Ashot Nadanian's blog: Evelina gives no dates. Exclusive Interview with International Master Ashot Nadanian gives names and dates, and is cited at the end if this section, so I'd remove the citation of Ashot Nadanian's blog: Evelina. --Philcha (talk) 09:04, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I made the change as suggested. SyG (talk) 15:30, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

• How you'd fancy including the "Whiskas" jokes between Nadanian and Levon Aronian (a possible world champion!) - Interview with International Master Ashot Nadanian. It's within WP:BLP, illustrate part of Nadanian's relationships - and WP needs humour. In case case the section should be re-titled e.g. "Relationships" - Nadanian seems a likeable and humourous guy. --Philcha (talk) 11:19, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Very funny story. :-). How could it be added into the article? --MrsHudson (talk) 18:57, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I suggest re-titling the section to "Relationships". Then in a new para e.g. Nadanian said that during the Linares Open of 1998 his friend Levon Aronian joked that Nadanian ate cat food. When in 2004 Nadanian named his daughter Kiti, Aronian replied, "See? I told you that it was 'Whiskas'!'" --Philcha (talk) 07:45, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

What if we create subsection of "Personal life"? (along with "Other chess activities and hobbies" and "Family") Maybe we could also use the following info from an interview: I have perfect relations with virtually all Armenian top players. But the closest are Levon Aronian, Gabriel Sargissian, Ara Minasian, Varuzhan Akobian, and Andranik Matikozyan. And then give "Whiskas" story. --MrsHudson (talk) 17:53, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

That would be even better! All as Nadanian said, of course. --Philcha (talk) 20:51, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Done. Could you please have a look? --MrsHudson (talk) 07:01, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Fine. --Philcha (talk) 18:51, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Images

No problems that I can see. --Philcha (talk) 09:04, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Dead links and DAB pages

• Y User:Dispenser/Checklinks and the DAB checker report OK. --Philcha (talk) 19:01, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Lead

Y --Philcha (talk) 19:09, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Result - pass

Thanks, MrsHudson and SyG - and the kibitzers at WP:CHESS. I'm very pleased to say that this article meets the Good Article criteria: it provides good coverage, is neutral and well-referenced, is clearly-written, complies with the parts of WP:MOS required for a GA and uses appropriate images that have good captions and comply with WP's policies on images. Many thanks for the work you've put into this, and for your prompt response to my comments - it's been a pleasure working with you.

If you've got 2 or more articles through GA reviewers, please try to review as many articles as you have nominated for GA review. --Philcha (talk) 19:09, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Philcha, for your review. Regards, --MrsHudson (talk) 19:21, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Philcha for this thorough and balanced review, it's always good to have you around ! Greetings also to MrsHudson for this great achievement ! SyG (talk) 08:31, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, SyG and congratulations! --MrsHudson (talk) 18:15, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

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