Talk:Berberism

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This article is about a topic whose name is originally rendered in the Berber script; however the article does not have that version of its name in the article's lead paragraph. Anyone who is knowledgeable enough with the original language is invited to assist in adding the Berber script.
For more information, see: MOS:FOREIGN.

Untitled

according to what i've heard, arabs and berbers have extensively interbred.

that would account for people of berber descent speaking arabic.

Gringo300 08:03, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

All genetic studies show that arabs had no or little influence on the ancestry of berbers, subsaharan influence is much greater than the arb one. The same is true for north arican arabs, they are identical to berbers except form some tribes. Toira 14:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on which berber region one has conducted genetic tests, I doubt that tests have been carried out in the more obscure regions where most berbers are siituated. It is true that some berbers are decended from arabs but this is not true for all. Furthermore, the subsaharan influence depends again on the area. Its a tricky subject to consider since not all berbers are of the same race, it is a bit like the pan arabic world whereby it is a people united by a single language/culture. Go to the area zayan and you can clearly see that the people there are of remote relation to arabs!!These people have probably never met arabs apart from on television!

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Move discussion in progress

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Topic neutrality

As indicated by the flag on this article, there is a dispute regarding its neutrality. If anyone has a point to discuss, let's do so here, and I will gladly share my opinion once someone engages. TahaKahi (talk) 13:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What dispute? Unless you're able to point to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies, there really is nothing to discuss. M.Bitton (talk) 13:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, gladly. Just read the first part of the Algeria topic, which openly claims that the ideology is anti-Arab in the first sentence and is also uncited. This is the basis for the flagging that the bot applied, which you removed without following the reasoning for its removal. TahaKahi (talk) 13:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

openly claims that the ideology is anti-Arab... and is also uncited it's sourced.

you removed without following the reasoning for its removal. that's big fat lie. The tag was added without explanation. M.Bitton (talk) 13:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The flag was made by a bot due to a dispute, requesting that we open a discussion on the talk page and reach a decision regarding its neutrality, as it only criticizes the movement. I'm confident that anyone who reads it can see how one-sided it sounds. The sentence at the top of the Algeria section doesn’t make sense in its position as the opening and summarizing sentence of the article. I would appreciate it if we could keep the discussion respectful—phrases like 'fat lie' and 'really is nothing to discuss' are unprofessional as opening remarks. I'm not interested in an unprofessional discussion. Perhaps we can address the issues one by one? Starting with the first sentence in the Algeria section--how do you see it as appropriate to be there? TahaKahi (talk) 13:49, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't people to describe your lies as lies, then don't lie. It's as simple as that. This is not a forum, I'm not discussing anything that isn't actionable within the content policies. M.Bitton (talk) M.Bitton (talk) 13:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would appreciate it if we could keep the focus on the content and avoid personal remarks. I have raised specific, actionable concerns regarding the tone and citation of the article’s opening sentence in the Algeria section. The claim that the ideology is 'anti-Arab' is significant and, in my view, should be better supported and positioned to ensure neutrality aswell as it is properly placed. Please tell me the exact issue you have with how I raised the concern and I will try my best to properly present it next time. TahaKahi (talk) 14:16, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"The claim" It's not simply a claim. It's a fact, supported by a myriad of sources.

"should be better supported" Did you try reading the sources already cited? I've added a few more in case those weren't enough. Skitash (talk) 18:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For quick notice to anyone interested in joining the conversation. I was referring to the first sentence of algeria topic in [[1]], it was removed by M.Bitton, though i still ask for reasoning of his removal to the Flag.

Thank you, Skitash, for adding additional sources. Firstly, the opening statement, "The origins of Berberism go back to the triumph of colonial capitalism in Kabylia during the French colonization of Algeria. Its roots date back to the 'Berber policy' of the French colonial empire, designed to 'pacify' Kabylia," frames it as a full product of French colonial policies, completely overlooking any complex cultural, linguistic, or even historical factors that existed before French rule. While, yes, the French role was significant, it should still emphasize a balanced view and not overbalance it toward one specific issue. Not a single perspective, it needs multiple; otherwise, it’s a one-sided telling of the issue. Also, the sentence, "French colonialists invented several ideologies to divide and rule the Algerian population, such as the Kabyle myth, a racist colonial trope which asserted that the Kabyle people were more predisposed than Arabs to assimilate into 'French civilization,'" implies that the Berber identity is mostly constructed by French ideology, rather than being an agency of defining and preserving their identity, risking framing the Berber identity as a colonial product. Then, the statement, "The Berberist crisis of 1949 led to the formation of the Berber Cultural Movement (MCB). Its agenda was to challenge Arabism and Islamism, and oppose Arabization because of its 'de-frenchifying' objectives and its alleged opposition to democratic and secular ideals," kind of implies that Berberism is solely in opposition to Arab culture, instead of an attempt to increase and preserve Berber culture/autonomy. Again, not the most neutral sentence.

I am not saying what you wrote is inherently wrong or right, but that it's a completely singular perspective. I love that you wrote about this subject not many have much knowledge of it and are capable of explaining it in English, but you only showed one perspective, which, unfortunately, doesn’t really align with Wikipedia's guidelines of neutrality. TahaKahi (talk) 19:13, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"completely overlooking any complex cultural, linguistic, or even historical factors that existed before French rule" Such as? Do you have any RS and are they WP:DUE? Skitash (talk) 19:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]