Talk:Michelle Smith

book

Her book with Cathal Dervan explains her side of the doping accusations and that of her husband--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 08:07, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Key facts in Michelle Smith's career for article lead

I've reverted to my previous version because the article as it stood did not make clear three key things which are obviously linked in her career. 1) She is Ireland's most successful Olympian, but at the time of the Olympic Games there were concerns raised by the US Olympic coach (and not just by another competitor) that her performance might have been artificially enhanced. 2)She was convicted by sporting authorities of taking illegal substances a relatively short time after. 3) Her coach and subsequent husband had himself been banned for taking illegal substances.

These are facts which obviously must be in the lead to the article. asnac (talk) 06:46, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I've reverted most of your again for a number of reasons, one of which is WP:BRD which is to say that you discuss first, not revert and discuss. In response to your reasons above

(1) can you find a reference for the US officials - the only references I can find relate to comments made by Evans. But your phrasing is nicer so I've no probs with that.

(2) She was not convicted of taking illegal substances. But you didn't add that in any case.

(3) Your sentence starting with "This was in the context..." I've reverted. It's WP:OR for you to draw this conclusion without a supporting reference that states this formed part of the reason for the objections by Evans. But I'd go so far as to say that even with a reference, it doesn't belong in the lede but in the subsequent sections. It's adds too much weight to justifying the suspicions - to be properly balanced you'd also need to add the reasons why the suspicions were unjustified. This would simply make the lede too long.

Your change of sentence to state "apologised to Michelle Smith for the implications of what she had said" is not also supported by the reference. The reference simply says that Smith received an apology. I've changed the text to reflect that. --HighKing (talk) 18:23, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Fair comment, and I've done some searching for sources and provided a few more refs - maybe too many for the lede now, I don't know. The "American officials" bit I got from the Janet Evans article, but on looking again, it's not sourced there and I can't find any other reference to it, so I suspect it may be incorrect and I've got rid of it. Every article that I've found online highlights the association with Erik de Bruin so I've put that back (sourced) in the lede. I don't suppose you could help standardise the presentation of the refs could you? I always struggle with these, and for some reason don't have a 'cite' button. asnac (talk) 07:02, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Making progress, but I'm reverting (again) the big about Erik de Bruin in the lede. The first, and the most important reason, is that *no* article I've seen links Evans accusations with de Bruin's previous association with doping. None. The might mention it as part of the history of Michelle - from aging swimmer to Euro champ to Olympics - but none state that there was poolside talk about doping after her olympic swim due to her husband. And this is now how the article reads. It is WP:OR for you to link these, unless there's a reference. The other reason is that the lede is intended to be a summary. Erik's association with doping can be properly positioned in other sections, and since it is background info, it doesn't need be in the lede. Finally, the "Sports Illustrated" article also doesn't belong in the lede, and does not represent a balanced view. If you want to write an opinion piece, or be controversial, perhaps a different article like Michelle Smith Controversy would make a good title. Also, I've fixed up the refs. --HighKing (talk) 16:47, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I've added a "Controversy" section. Feel free to add controversial material there and we can sort it our as we go. --HighKing (talk) 17:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Your revised opening has moved away from the guidance in WP:LEDE. "The lead should... summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies." My emphasis. To say "Significant controversy followed her 1996 victories" doesn't achieve this and needs to be looked at again - I haven't got the time now but will try to in due course, unless someone else has a go. Also the way it reads at present, concluding with "The allegations were never proven and today she remains Ireland's most successful Olympian",it would sound to the reader who might not read the whole article as if the controversy was a flash in the pan and that all was and is rosy. Actually the controversy was a really big deal, people had suspicions even before the Olympics got under way, and of course it has been recalled to the news this week because of the controversy over the young Chinese swimmer in London. People whose views deserve to be taken seriously presumed (rightly or wrongly) that Smith's performance was artificially enhanced, so skimming over the facts in this way means there's an NPOV issue to be addressed in the lede too, as well as the problem that the main reason for Smith's lasting fame is practically ignored in the opening. Thanks for your help with the refs. By the way I think that there are articles that link the US swimmers' accusations (it wasn't just Evans) to de Bruin, this one for example. asnac (talk) 18:38, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually the revised opening is exactly in line with WP:LEDE. The key word is "summarize", and the controversy is summarized - with the detail in subsequent paragraphs. I agree that the sentence "The allegations were never proven" could do with some better wording. Hard to see also how "Significant controversy" could be taken to be a flash in the pan. Also, if you're using the Britannica reference to bolster an argument to extend the lede, I'd point out that it's not till the 4th para in that article that any hint of a controversy is even mentioned, and even then it simply states facts without trying to imply guilt or innocence. We need to be mindful on NPOV means. For example, are there references to back up a statement that there were suspicions before the olympics? Or are they quotes and opinions that were voiced afterwards post her ban, with the benefit of hindsight? And how much space is being denoted to those who maintained she was innocent, including her own protestations and book - this would be important for balance in order to main neutral coverage. And the biggest question - are we trying to conclude guilt or innocence in the article by presenting a specific viewpoint? --HighKing (talk) 20:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Not using Britannica ref to bolter anything - you said that you had seen no articles linking the poolside controversy with de Bruin so I found you one! sorry if I didn't make its purpose clear. Problem with article remains that the serious allegations need a measure of exploration at the start in order to fulfil the need to "summarize controversies". I've made some changes which achieve this without unnecessarily lengthening the lede or going into the areas about which you are concerned. What do you think? asnac (talk) 21:12, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I think it's really very good. I believe though she now goes by "Michelle Smith de Bruin" --HighKing (talk) 22:22, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Have made the change to Smith de Bruin. asnac (talk) 06:04, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

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Moot Court Award

The reference to winning a legal prize is not substantiated. Why is it there? Where did it come from? CillianMcGrattan (talk) 11:21, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 23 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. After much-extended time for discussion, there is a clear absence of consensus for the proposed move. BD2412 T 16:21, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

---

• Michelle Smith → Michelle Smith (swimmer)
• Michelle Smith (disambiguation) → Michelle Smith

– There are nine women and one man listed upon the Michelle Smith (disambiguation) page, with no strong indication that the Olympian from 28 years ago has retained historical renown sufficient to dwarf the combined notability of the remaining eight women. As an alternative option, I would support retaining Michelle Smith as primary among the women named "Michelle", but moving Michelle Smith (disambiguation) → Michele Smith. Among the eight women who have English Wikipedia articles, five are named "Michelle" and three are named "Michele", thus dropping the parenthetical qualifier "(disambiguation)" still appears to be relatively evenhanded and users researching the swimmer would not lose their ability to access her entry directly [the two WP:DABMENTIONS are the entry for co-author of Michelle Remembers and the redirect for male sportsman Michele Smith (cyclist)]. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:51, 23 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 07:28, 1 September 2024 (UTC) — Relisting.  ASUKITE 16:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:27, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Michelle Smith is the overwhelming WP:primary topic with over 97% of pageviews this year. (No objection to alternative suggestion of moving dab page to Michele Smith, since that already redirects to the dab page anyway, but I don't think that makes much difference one way or the other.) Station1 (talk) 06:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Too many for one person to be primary without overwhelming long-term significance. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:53, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Just too common a name. There are undoubtedly other notable Michelle Smiths Wikipedia doesn't even have yet. - WPGA2345 - ☛ 21:44, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: the pageviews are undoubtedly in primary-topic territory, and the persistence of coverage/interest over several decades speaks to some level of long-term significance, at least in comparison to the four or five others on the dab page who spell it "Michelle". I wouldn't have expected there to be a primary topic for this name either, but evidence trumps instincts. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:11, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
  • No objections to Roman Spinner's alternative proposal. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:13, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose based on the page views and how the dab is being navigated, it is clearly the primary topic among all pages currently on WP. There is no crystal ball regarding if or when a more notable primary topic might come around. But for the moment this person has nearly 10x the views of any other person listed in the dab, and the hat-note for the dab page is 31 views out of over 41k views for her page. And of those visitors to the DAB page, it seems that almost everyone coming from an outside source is looking for this Michelle, and not another one. I would support a move of the dab page to the alternate spelling of Michele. TiggerJay (talk) 05:03, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Second relist to give time for alternative proposal, which has two opposers noting they don't object to and is looking like it might win out over a "no consensus" closure at the moment. There is now also a suggestion to move the dab page to Michele Smith ASUKITE 16:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Just to be clear, moving the dab page to Michele Smith is the alternative proposal; that and the original proposal are the only things on the table right now. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:12, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Olympics, WikiProject Ireland, and WikiProject Biography/Sports and games have been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 16:50, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Page views should not be relied upon solely in the decision in this as it is not qualitive data. A sizable proportion of those visitors may be looking for the disambiguation page or one of the nine other people listed on it. UaMaol (talk) 01:36, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  No, that's not possible. The dab page gets only 2 hits per day. Only a very small fraction of readers are looking for some other Michelle Smith. Station1 (talk) 19:28, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  Again, page views are not qualitive! UaMaol (talk) 22:33, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  I agree. They are objective facts, as opposed to subjective opinion of a handful of editors. Station1 (talk) 03:07, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per Tiggerjay - clearly the primary topic. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 19:16, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support Compare to Michael Collins and Tom Jones. UaMaol (talk) 01:36, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  Pageviews clearly show Michael Collins has no primary topic, almost exactly the opposite of this case. Station1 (talk) 19:28, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  Again, page views are not qualitive! Also, you cannot not reasonably make that point when the disambiguation page is not at w/Michelle Smith. If it were, then the page views would be closer to real accuracy. UaMaol (talk) 22:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

  The numbers would change only marginally. Assuming every single reader landing on Michelle Smith (disambiguation) wanted someone other than the swimmer, the swimmer's share of views would only decrease from 97% to at worst 95%. Station1 (talk) 03:07, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Massviews [1] indicates views of the swimmer's page are more than everyone else's put together. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 14:28, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.