Talk:Queensland Fire Department

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Queensland Fire and Emergency Services. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20130904224353/http://www.ruralfire.qld.gov.au:80/ to http://www.ruralfire.qld.gov.au/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:19, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Suggested changes? 1990+ history, etc. (Mar 2024)

Is there no page listing the organisation's history prior to 2000s? The list of commissioners prior to 2014?

Should the service and bravery medals section be moved to Queensland Honours?

Can be done in the big re-write of Jul 2024. Also reference to SES can be just a single-liner in the updated QPS page, and SES history stay on the SES page. Food for thought.—Q8682 (talk) 10:16, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

The history from way back was essentially a whole bunch of local bushfire and metro brigades from what I understand. It’s before my time but in the RFS training books you can see photos from brigades back then. 2001:8003:EC74:DD00:1C28:3BDE:2D52:4E2B (talk) 07:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

The current content of this page (for QFD) should get a new page, and the QFES page should be reverted to the June 2024 state. 2403:580B:8398:0:342E:EF70:2629:A0B4 (talk) 02:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

(Attn Admin) Revert to previous edits

Can an admin please revert the edits made by user 103.93.151.113 back to the ones I made. It is too much work and I do not want to get wrongfully IP banned for vandalism again even though I was making the article more informative and accurate. 2001:8003:EC74:DD00:45E8:A5E2:F8BE:F278 (talk) 03:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Please if you do this also bring back the edits made by 101.188.179.150

This is work that I did, I do not know why it published it under a different IP code 2001:8003:EC74:DD00:6CA8:DA85:AE42:CE1D (talk) 05:48, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Administrators do not have any more power to edit articles than any other editor on the project, including IP editors, when it comes to articles that are not protected. This article is not protected. Nobody is going to do your work for you. If your work has been reverted, then the next step is to begin a discussion to gain consensus, not to ask an administrator to do it for you. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:11, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

COI tag (October 2024)

external evidence of public relations editing found on Reddit Evidence at https://archive.is/oml2z Graywalls (talk) 17:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Leadership name inclusion discussion

I added the leadership section initially and over time, you can check the page edit history for evidence, and WP:NOTPRICE specifically excludes CEO’s (Commissioners). Please revert your revert. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 23:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

They're already in the infobox.So, I don't see the necessity to have it in multiple places. Graywalls (talk) 23:22, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry what? The list of commissioners dating back to the establishment of the combined qfrs certainly isn’t already in the infobox. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 23:43, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe including all those PAST managers is due. also, whatever it is to be included must be verifiable and cited with a published source. Graywalls (talk) 01:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Thankfully this isn't a dictatorship then hey, and I'd challenge you to gain consensus to remove it. As I mentioned, WP:NOTPRICE specifically excludes CEO’s (Commissioners) and I don't see any other policy that calls for its exclusion. As it stands, similar articles (Queensland Police Service, Fire and Rescue New South Wales, New South Wales Police Force, Australian Border Force, Chief of the Defence Force (Australia)) have the exact same table of former commissioners/equivalents. I don't see the need to remove the table, unless you're implying I'm 'Ecstatic_Problem_390'?

Period served	Name	Notes
Commissioner, Queensland Fire and Rescue Authority
1997–2001	Wayne Hartley, AFSM	Formerly Director of the Queensland Ambulance Service.
Commissioner, Queensland Fire and Rescue Service
2001–2002	Wayne Hartley, AFSM	Formerly Commissioner, Queensland Fire and Rescue Authority
2002–2014	Lee Johnson, AFSM
Commissioner, Queensland Fire and Emergency Services
2014–2015	Lee Johnson, AFSM	Formerly Commissioner of Queensland Fire and Rescue Service (QFRS).
2015 – 5 June 2019	Katarina Carroll, APM	Formerly Assistant Commissioner in the Queensland Police Service.
2 December 2019 – 3 October 2023	Greg Leach, AFSM	Former Deputy Chief Officer of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade (Melbourne). Previous Commissioner of Tasmania Ambulance.
3 October 2023 – 1 July 2024	Steven Smith, AFSM	Appointed acting commissioner from 3 October 2023.
Commissioner, Queensland Fire Department
1 July 2024 – present	Steven Smith, AFSM

Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 03:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

References

@Nford24:, when disputed, consensus is needed to include the contents, see WP:ONUS. There has been considerable amount of rather obvious public relations editing by one or more persons if you look at the edit history. Based on external evidence cited, it's quite likely the department is trying to have a say in what is included, even though they should not. The question here is due weight. While things must be verifiable, not everything verified to exist/true doesn't belong. I've sought input from others who regularly work on articles about companies and cities for their opinion. Graywalls (talk) 16:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@Magnolia677 and CNMall41:, I know you know work on companies and cities often. I'm not quite sure the ideal place to ask. Could you suggest where to ask, or comment if it's a good idea or customary to include an exhaustive list of past leaders/CEO/captains for local government departments? For something like (Governor of ____ state), there's usually a list article, and often a list of former mayors for major cities. But for like local government departments, I'm not sure if a stand-alone list, or in article list of all the previous leaders is WP:DUE. Graywalls (talk) 14:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. It could be asked at WikiProject Companies although it would likely just bring the people here who were pinged. There are two issues I see with the list. The first is WP:COAT. Having their past positions is something that is not pertinent to the Queensland Fire Department so I am not sure how that would be acceptable. The other is including a list of former department heads in the body (especially in a list format). This is normally done with higher elected political positions (see List of mayors of Los Angeles), but it would need to meet WP:NLIST which this does not. I normally remove such lists from company pages and leave the information box for the current information. As such, I would be against inclusion of the above chart. --CNMall41 (talk) 17:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The QFD & its previous existences its the 90’s is a state government department, not local government. Excluding it on they basis would be the same as excluding the list of commissioners from the Queensland Police Service article. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 21:31, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@Kerry Raymond: I'd appreciate and value your input on this since this is your field more so than mine. Is this worth perusing or do I just drop it? Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 21:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

That was not my reasoning. Are the positions elected positions? Such as the example I provided?--CNMall41 (talk) 07:11, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I have posted a link to this discussion on Wikiproject Cities. Graywalls (talk) 00:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, I think people are getting needlessly upset about this article. As I see it, as per NOPRICE, I can't see any issue with including a list of the most senior role (the commissioners) with the current incumbent to be included in the infobox, provided the information is appropriately cited. I note this organisation is not local government (city) but it is for the State of Queensland, which, according to List of first-level administrative divisions by area is the sixth largest in the world by area being 1,729,742 km² (667,857.1199 mi2), making it bigger than every state in the USA (including Alaska, although Alaska does come close). The northern half of the state is in the tropics, the southern half in the sub-tropics. It is therefore, hot or very hot in summer and, thanks to the Great Dividing Range (which mostly hugs the eastern coast), it can be very dry west of the range. Bushfires are therefore a major problem and, when they occur, tend to be huge and extremely difficult to contain, being fought with planes and the construction of firebreaks rather than just pointing a hose at it! Plus all the evacuations. So the Qld Fire Dept does have a very big job on its hands and, as well as the professional fire fighters, also manages the many rural fire brigades (staffed by local volunteers). And of course they are also responsible for the fires that occur in the cities and towns in Queensland too (which tend to be more of the "point the hose at it" fires). Regarding the discussion on reddit, given that there are many rural volunteer firefighters and, yes, they do do a lot of training, it is very likely that the person writing on reddit (and presumably one of the recent contributors to the article) is indeed a volunteer firefighter and not a public relations person as suggested. For what it's worth, I have seen very little evidence of that kind of "public relations" editing by Queensland government departments on the corresponding Wikipedia articles, it's something that occurs more on articles about Queensland politicians. There has recently been a big (and somewhat controversial) reorganisation of the Qld Fire Department so I can understand why we are seeing so much recent activity on this article (it is not one I usually "watch" but I guess I will now). Also note that many Queensland government departments use CC-BY licencing to various extents and CC-BY-4.0 is the default licence of the fire department (see https://www.fire.qld.gov.au/copyright) so if content that comes onto Wikipedia looks similar to that of the department's website, it may be someone is copying from the departmental website (but does not realise they need to cite/attribute) rather than it being the work of a PR person directly on the Wikipedia article. I note that some of the IP edit summaries mentioned a URL or referred to the website. I think the recent changes to the the department has led to lot of activity by new-ish Wikipedia users, who appear to me to be well-intentioned but highly unlikely to be up to speed with all our policies. So as per WP:NOBITE, I would be inclined to give them some space to make their additions/changes, then we can tidy and prune as needed once that activity has died down. I often remark with Wikipedia that "whether or not it is clear to you, the universe is unfolding as it should" because, over time, articles do tend to become better, even though they may go through some problematic stages along the way. Kerry (talk) 02:49, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Kerry Raymond:, did you see the Reddit link I posted? I am not sure who did it, but whoever it is acknowledged adding things based on something other than published information. Licensing isn't the issue here. Page should be based on secondary sources. Things that you can only see from the government's page is not likely WP:DUE inclusion. Graywalls (talk) 03:56, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I did see it. As I said, it seemed to be written by someone who is a new user who probably doesn't know about Wikipedia's policies on citation, etc. Certainly if you go looking for help on reddit rather than (say) on this Talk page or on the Tea House on Wikipedia, it doesn't suggest an experienced contributor. Kerry (talk) 05:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't necessarily agree that "over time, articles do tend to become better, even though they may go through some problematic stages along the way" as there are plenty of articles out there that have been contaminated with WP:UNDUE contents from covert public relations editing that often go undetected. An article that should not exist, but do not have many view counts often end up being unnoticed for years.

I'm hoping more input comes along to establish general consensus about not just article but for similar articles as well. Graywalls (talk) 06:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. This exhaustive list seems contrary to a few WP:NOT issues, as has been mentioned already. My other concern is that only one person listed is notable (has a Wiki article), which adds to the trivial nature of the list. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)