User talk:GusGusBrus/Mecklenburgian invasion of Sweden

Questions

@GusGusBrus: I find the emphasis on the First Swedish-Norwegian union a bit doubtful. This part of Scandinavian is a bit vague to me, so I might be wrong in my doubts, but please clarify, in which source is the union mentioned? Sweden and Norway were in a personal union under Magnus during his early reign, but in what sense were they united at the end of his reign? Does this just refer to Haakon being briefly the king in both countries, and if so, why should we consider it a continuation of Magnus' personal union (which source presents it as such)? Since the union was merely a personal union, its dissolution simply means that Haakon was deposed in Sweden.

Also, about the discussion about legality of Albert's election. Albert was Duke Erik Magnusson's grandson, so he was not a complete outsider to the Royal line and that should probably be acknowledged. Does that legality discussion come from Sundberg?

Btw, I changed Opsahl's article into an English version from the previous year. It seems to me like the content is exactly the same. Hope you don't mind. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 16:43, 4 September 2024 (UTC) [updated 09:32, 5 September 2024 (UTC)]

The union is mentioned as seperate countries as they functioned as such, but in this context it was both the union kings and kingdoms fighting against Mecklenburg.

The legality question of Albert's election was mentioned in the source.

Thanks GusGusBrus (talk) 21:11, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Västergötland, Värmland and Dalsland were ceded as personal fiefdoms to Magnus and Haakon, and returned to Sweden when Haakon died. FrinkMan (talk) 00:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Doesnt change that they were de facto ruled by Norway until then. GusGusBrus (talk) 11:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Not exactly. They were ruled as personal fiefdoms of Magnus and Haakon. FrinkMan (talk) 18:52, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Which were the kings of Norway. What is the difference between the two during their reign? GusGusBrus (talk) 16:12, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

There's a third power in addition to the kings. In 1371 Albrecht managed to resist Haakon only by submitting to the Swedish riksråd, which then forced him to submit to a handfästning. Haakon and Magnus were also not in a position to resist the riksråd, but were forced to abandon their claim to the title of King of Sweden. When the Diocese of Skara was given as a fief to Magnus, the local nobles were assigned to remain under the authority of the Swedish riksråd. It seems like the riksråd was in the position to enforce this condition. However, I do not know what actually happened when the Bjälbo kings died, did the fief return to Albrecht? Jähmefyysikko (talk) 16:40, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Good points, Jähmefyysikko!

The fief returned to Albrecht in 1380. FrinkMan (talk) 21:19, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Copyvio concerns

The article text appears to be mostly a direct translation from Sundberg's book. Entire paragraphs are directly lifted from that book with minor shuffling of content. Translation is not enough to avoid copyright violations, see WP:NONENGPLAG.

To give an example, here's a comparison of the first paragraph after the introduction:

In the year 1363, the conspiracies among the nobility began to have repercussions for both Magnus Eriksson and Haakon VI, the kings of Sweden and Norway. The recent territorial losses suffered by the kingdom, particularly the cession of Scania and Blekinge to Denmark, were attributed to a supposed conspiracy involving Magnus and Haakon. In response, several Swedish noblemen embarked on a journey to Germany in search of a "suitable" new candidate for the throne. After their deliberations, they settled on Albert III of Mecklenburg, the youngest son of Duke Albert II of Mecklenburg and a nephew of Magnus Eriksson.

År 1363 börjar herremännens konspirationer gå ut över kungarna. De olyckor som har inträffat på senare tid, bland annat förlusten av Skåne och Blekinge, skylls på en sammansvärjning mellan Magnus och hans son Håkan. Svenska herremän reser till Tyskland föt att finna en "lämplig" kandidat till tronen, varmed sannolikt menas en person som är beredd att gå in rådsaristokratins ledband. Efter en del sökande finner man Albrekt av Mecklenburg, ynste son till Albrekt den äldre och systerson till Magnus.

Jähmefyysikko (talk) 16:21, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I apologize for the similarities which occured since i had to rewrite it twice for this article and my draft involving all the wars to differ from eachother. The spesific problem you mentioned should now be fixed. GusGusBrus (talk) 18:19, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The new version is still too close to the original Swedish text, e.g. the sentences correspond to each other one-to-one. I don't think this article can be fixed with cosmetic changes, it needs to be rewritten. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 19:15, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Here's the comparison with the rest of article text from an earlier revision (before other users' changes):

In the autumn of 1363, it became widely known that, Valdemar IV had embarked on an extended journey abroad. Albert of Mecklenburg recognized this as an opportune moment to join the rebellion, as he was now shielded from Danish involvement in the conflict. On November 10th, Albert set sail from Warnemünde, accompanied by Swedish nobles and a contingent of 600 soldiers, with the intent to dethrone Magnus Eriksson from the Swedish throne. By November 29th, the forces from Mecklenburg, along with the rebellious Swedish nobles, landed in Stockholm, where they encountered minimal resistance. Upon learning of these developments, the kings of the union, Magnus Eriksson and Haakon VI, promptly prepared for battle. A fortress was constructed on an island in Lake Kilarpsjön to secure the northern approach along the road through Holaveden.	Under hösten sprider sig nyheten att Valdemar Atterdag har begivit sig ut på en längre utlandsresa. Detta skapar ett utmärkt tillfälle för operationen, eftersom man ny är garderad mot dansk inblandning i den kommande konflikten. Den 10 november seglar Albrekt av Mecklenburg med svenska stormän och circa 1 600 soldater från Warnemunde mot Sverige. Man passerar Kalmar och Borgholm på Öland, som är pantsätta till holsteinerna respektive Hansan, och kommer till Stockholm den 29 november. Stockholms borgare svär omedelbart Albrekt trohet. Magnus och Häkan befinner sig i Östergotland när underrättelsen om Albrekts landstigning kommer och rustar omedelbart till strid. För att försvara norra ändan av vägen genom Holaveden anläggs fästet Svaneholm pä en ö in Kilarpssjön.
On February 15th, 1364, Albert of Mecklenburg was elected king of Sweden, despite this being contrary to existing laws that stipulated the king must be of Swedish descent. Consequently, Albert's election was legally questionable. In Finland, Nils Turesson Bielke, stationed at Viborg, lost Svaneholm Castle to the Åbo garrison loyal to Magnus after a six-day siege. This likely marked a stalemate in the conflict, and in July 1364, the Treaty of Jönköping was signed, wherein both parties agreed to a ceasefire for the remainder of the year, during which Norway would assume control over Västergötland, Värmland, and Dalsland.	Den 15 februari väljs Albrekt av Mecklenburg, helt i strid med gällande lag, till svensk kung. Den viktigaste invändingen mot valet är att Albrekt inte var svensk och därför inte, enligt lagen, kunde väljas till svensk kung. [...] I Finland sitter den albrekttrogne Nils Turesson Bielke på Viborg, men Åbos besättning står på Magnus sida. Svaneholm faller inom kort efter sex dagars belägring. Efter Svaneholms fall ingås sannolikt ett stillestånd och i juli ingås ett fördrag i Jönköping, enligt vilket stillestånd skall råda året ut. Under stilleståndstiden skall Magnus och Håkan behålla Västergötland, Värmland och Dalsland.

In the latter paragraph, there are some modifications to Sundberg's text, but they mostly introduce errors (e.g. Nils Turesson did not lose Svaneholm, which is not in Finland, and Norway did not assume those provinces, the kings personally did). Jähmefyysikko (talk) 18:49, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Reworded/wrote the entire thing. The contruction of it is still the same, similar to Sundbergs text which is chronological. About the Svaneholm thing, im not Swedish myself so i might have gotten some details wrong, but would be great if you could fix this! GusGusBrus (talk) 21:14, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, so here's the issue; the book is virtually impossible for me or anyone else at Copyright problems to reasonably get and looking at WorldCat, would also be a hard WP:REX to fulfill. None of us can read Swedish without machine translators either so I fear that unless the article is completely rewritten (and yes, that includes different constructions from the source) that I will have to stub the article. Sennecaster (Chat) 03:04, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I've now restored the lede and a sentence not cited to the source in question. Please do not restore the rest of the article. It's better to summarize the facts of the book than to directly translate a source, and simply rewording the translation is not enough; following the exact same structure of the paragraph can result in WP:CLOP. Sennecaster (Chat) 03:13, 19 November 2024 (UTC)