Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1992–93 FC Desna Chernihiv season

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Stifle (talk) 08:34, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1992–93 FC Desna Chernihiv season

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Was draftified in order to be improved. Was declined twice at AfC, by Robert McClenon and Spiderone, then moved back to mainspace, with the rationale that NSEASONS has been met. However, NSEASONS does not guarantee inclusion, as it states, "Individual season articles for top-level professional teams are highly likely to meet Wikipedia notability requirements". It does not say they automatically meet notability requirements. There is currently zero in-depth coverage from independent reliable sources so as to pass WP:GNG, despite having been tagged for issues for over a month. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 09:25, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Football and Ukraine. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:29, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:31, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - seasons in which the club played in a professional league do not always require stand-alone articles. We need to ask ourselves whether this article actually adds anything of value to the encyclopaedia or whether it's just a stats article. Unfortunately, I can't see any evidence that anything notable happened in this season for it to warrant its own article. If anything did happen, it might be worth writing a sentence or two at FC Desna Chernihiv but having a stand-alone article for every Desna Chernihiv season is just absurd. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 17:20, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't say its absurd to have articles for each season of a top-level team. Over at the American football project and I'm sure many others, its commonly done that way. BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:39, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not convinced that Desna Chernihiv were a 'top-level' team. They barely escaped relegation to the third tier of Ukraine that season. I could understand if someone wanted to presume notability for Dynamo Kyiv, Shakhtar or Dnipro that season (none of them yet have stand-alone articles) but I can't see why we would extend that presumption further for a season article for a team barely second tier let alone top tier. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 22:43, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't Chernihiv currently play in the Ukrainian Premier League? BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:10, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes but that has no relevance to their 1992–93 season. Desna Chernihiv has usually been a second or third tier team in their history and their current spell in the top tier is their first one. Each season should be judged on its own merits. The current Desna season might well be notable but we shouldn't then inappropriately extrapolate and say that that must mean that all Desna seasons are notable by default. In the same way, 2021–22 Sutton United F.C. season might well have a presumption of notability but it would be absurd to then say that their 2008–09 season is also notable, given that they were way lower in the English pyramid at that point. If 1992–93 FC Desna Chernihiv season can be proven to meet GNG, keep it. If not, it should be deleted. History of FC Desna Chernihiv already exists and, if something noteworthy happened this season, we can add a sentence to the history article. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:44, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Delete, having not machine-translated the sources, and not planning to machine-translate the sources, but the sources appear to be statistical pages. Statistical pages do not provide secondary coverage. They are very interesting to sports fans, but when we decided that they do not establish notability for players, that implied a decision that they also do not establish notability for teams without coverage by secondary sources such as magazines. The Heymann criterion will be finding at least one secondary source providing significant coverage, and including a summary of what the source says in the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:41, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 15:16, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - According to the Ukrainian-language Wiki, there is a 2021 Viktor Mukha book about Desna that has some coverage of this season. However, I cannot access the book or see a preview anywhere - just sales listings like the one I linked. The only other in-depth coverage I can find of this season is from the football club itself which isn't secondary independent coverage. Perhaps there is some angle about this being the first season the club played in the newly-independent Ukrainian club football competitions, but we don't have access to any sources that demonstrate its notability. Jogurney (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have this book. The 1992–93 season is described on pages 198-201, here is their photo for example: 198, 199, 200. Dunadan Ranger (talk) 15:35, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can User:Iliochori2 provide some independent references for this season? Newspapers, book, or television programmes would be great. Heck, even a photo of such things! Can we give them time to do so? Nfitz (talk) 20:37, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I will try to provide some independent references for this season. Iliochori2 (talk) 20:50, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's why it should have been left in draft.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 20:56, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but I notice you didn't ask for redraftification in your nomination. Nfitz (talk) 04:14, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are these sources enough? https://startfootball.info/fk-desna-chernigov-istoriya-kluba/ - https://val.ua/ru/82202.html - https://eho-tribun.ucoz.ru/blog/futbolnye_kluby_desna_chernigov_sssr_ukraina_fc_desna_chernigiv/2013-10-07-8 - https://www.desna.football/2000-2010/ (official Website of the club) - If you want I can look for more of them. Regards 151.37.215.139 (talk) 21:13, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are these sources enough? https://startfootball.info/fk-desna-chernigov-istoriya-kluba/ - https://val.ua/ru/82202.html - https://eho-tribun.ucoz.ru/blog/futbolnye_kluby_desna_chernigov_sssr_ukraina_fc_desna_chernigiv/2013-10-07-8 - https://www.desna.football/2000-2010/ (official Website of the club) - If you want I can look for more of them. Regards Iliochori2 (talk) 21:17, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's a start, User:Iliochori2. I can't translate the first one I'm afraid, so I can't say. The second and third don't mention this particular season (though the one might help the 1993-94 article). The club website is a good source of information for the article, but sadly does not help at all for notability - even for the club, let alone a particular season. What we really need are good articles (or books, etc.) about this season. Which would presumably mostly be in Ukrainian/Russian 1992/1993 media articles. A tall order I'm afraid, especially given the political situation and changes back then. So you know of any good archive sites that might be a good place to search? Nfitz (talk) 04:12, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hello for the moment I've found these sources https://teams.by/pervaya-liha-1992-1993-chempionat-ukrainy/table-1405/ - https://fcdesna.at.ua/index/0-4 - https://favoritmarket.com/%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C_%D0%90%D0%BB%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA_%D0%94%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2_1992_93-6907746.htm - http://ukranianfootball.narod.ru/1993/1992_93.html - https://www.besoccer.com/competition/table/persha_liga_ukraine/1993

I am in the process to contact some people that they can provide more information. I am also trying to get the book of Viktor Mukha as source. Iliochori2 (talk) 21:12, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Draftify I’m not sure why this article keeps being moved back and forth from draft to main space, but currently it should not be in main space due to the lack of reliable secondary sources. Iliochori2 has stated that they are working on this, so moving the article back to a draft is best whilst they work on this. However, the article needs improvements before returning to main space. Fats40boy11 (talk) 07:59, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - no sense in draftifying, since the editor who created it has been blocked for sockpuppetry.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 01:33, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn’t aware there was an ongoing investigation for sockpuppetry on the editor – in which the editor has been subsequently blocked – so thank you for bringing this to my attention. Fats40boy11 (talk) 07:26, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I personally can’t find any reliable secondary sources to help the article to pass WP:GNG but that isn’t to say there is any out there. Previously voting to draftify, I am changing to delete, with the editor I cited as working on it being blocked. Fats40boy11 (talk) 07:35, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.