Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Macau cuisine

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Macanese cuisine. Despite spirited resistance from the IP, there's a clear consensus for redirecting this to Macanese cuisine. Randykitty (talk) 13:05, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Macau cuisine

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I think that Macanese cuisine is the clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Macau cuisine, and that this should thus be converted to a redirect pointing to that article. The influences of Cantonese and Portuguese cuisine are discussed in Macanese cuisine and do not need to be disambiguated separately for this search term. I previously made this change and was reverted, so I'm bringing this discussion to a formal venue here. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 00:08, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 00:08, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 00:08, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete without producing a redirect or redirect to Cantonese cuisine. This should have been an independent article and by no means a disamibguation page. The WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Macau cuisine is apparently Cantonese cuisine as Macanese cuisine is the food cook and eaten by Macanese people. Redirecting Macau cuisine to Macanese cuisine is somewhat similar to redirecting Canadian cuisine to Metis cuisine. More background information at Macau people#Name about the difference between the term "Macau" and "Macanese". Plus, albeit contain some Cantonese food, the article Macanese cuisine does not reflect the routine food consumed by most Macau residents. --146.95.196.199 (talk) 00:15, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would prefer deletion over redirecting to Cantonese. A source of confusion here (which also undermines the Canadian/Metis analogy) is that Macanese in English is an adjective that can refer to anything from Macau, and is not necessarily a reference to the Macanese ethnic group, so it's entirely possible that someone will use this search term in an attempt to find Macanese cuisine, even if this could be considered inaccurate. Unless it can be demonstrated that Macau cuisine is notable independent of both Cantonese and Macanese cuisine, I think the best solution is to have a redirect pointing at Macanese cuisine and add a hatnote pointing to Cantonese cuisine. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 00:23, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Macanese in English is not or at least sparsely an adjective that can refer to anything from Macau. It is an exception in the English language. See Macau people#Name and Macanese language#Name. The article Macanese cuisine if considered an article about food culture in Macau in general, is severely WP:UNDUE. --146.95.196.199 (talk) 00:26, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Both Oxford [1] and Random House [2] include relating to Macau as part of their definitions for Macanese. Oxford also notes the specialized definition, and lists it alongside the more general definition. The solution to the UNDUE issue would be to start an actual article at Macau cuisine, with hatnotes between that and Macanese cuisine. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 00:38, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but that usage is obsolete as you can read from Clayton, Cathryn H. (2010). Sovereignty at the Edge: Macau & the Question of Chineseness. The people of Macau used to be Tanka, then "Macaense", then Cantonese. At the second stage, the concept "of Macau" and the concept "Macanese" used to match (thus you have the dictionary entries), while at the third stage, the term "Macanese" retains its original usage and the Portuguese Macau government's attempt to redefine the term "Macanese" according to the current situation failed. So unless Wikipedia gives up its WP:COMMONNAME policy and start a compaign to redifine "Macanese", the article Macau cuisine should not be redirected to Macanese cuisine. If someone starts an article it would be great, otherwise I'd rather it stays red (deleted) or an disambiguation page. --146.95.196.199 (talk) 00:53, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should let other editors weigh in, but just quickly going to note that COMMONNAME is for article titles, not for redirects; we have Template:R from incorrect name for cases like this. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 01:01, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, by COMMONNAME and the fact indicated in Macanese people#Name, an article about cooking of Macau people should be named Macau cuisine and the article about cooking of Macanese people should be named Macanese cuisine, thus Macanese cuisine is a (minority) subclass of Macau cuisine so redirecting Macau cuisine to Macanese cuisine in inappropriate (redirecting Canadian cuisine to Metis cuisine). Template:R from incorrect name is only for incorrect name without other ambiguity. --146.95.196.199 (talk) 01:13, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The only difference is, most Canadian people are not proud of their Metis cuisine in general, not is Metis cuisine widely used to boost tourism in Canada. --146.95.196.199 (talk) 01:16, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

By the way I have splitted the Category:Macanese cuisine into two. The original Category:Macanese cuisine category was more like Macau cuisine in general and should have Macau cuisine as the main article. --146.95.196.199 (talk) 02:21, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 03:33, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect per nom - Is it plausible that someone looking for information about Cantonese food would search about Macau food? Not even slightly. However, it is very plausible that someone looking for information about Macanese food would search for "Macau cuisine", since this is an easy mistake to make. Further more, Macau is not officially part of Guangdong province, and has many other cuisines other than Cantonese (I once ate some great Portuguese food at the Club Militar De Macau, Super Bock is drunk throughout the city, and other varieties of Chinese food are available there) so a redirect to Cantonese Cuisine is not even nearly appropriate. Similarly deletion is not a good idea given that Macau is an autonomous region and is home to its own cuisine. FOARP (talk) 12:11, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @FOARP:If your idea is to make Macanese cuisine an article covering cuisine of Macanese people and think that represent the cuisine of Macau, that's a straight tourist POV (and actually somewhat European POV as well) as I mentioned before, as it doesn't reflect the food Macau people eat in their routine life.
  For example, almond biscuit is a signature Zhongshan and Macau cuisine, and certainly a prime topic of Macau cuisine, but not at all Macanese. Pork chop bun, also, is extremely popular in Macau, and is solely a cuisine of Macau and can not be found anywhere else of China, but certainly not Macanese. Basically what you did is redirecting American cuisine to a Thanksgiving dinner which an average American do not eat for 364 out of 365 days but certainly what a tourist would remind of when talking about American cuisine, yet I believe the article American cuisine should deal more with routine American food like mac 'n' cheese. The same applies to Macau. --146.95.196.216 (talk) 23:04, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- If your idea is to make Macanese cuisine an article covering all cuisines of Macau, it'll no longer bear the previous problem but I'll tag a WP:DUE onto the article as it is very misleading and false advertising. It's essentially writing an American cuisine article with 98% of the article dealing with Thanksgiving dinner while the other two percent about mac 'n' cheese. Think about a child whose Australian and Macau parents are being divorced and will live in two different country. Now he must choose one of his parents to live with. One of the factor helping to make a decision is the local cuisine, then he read the Wikipedia UNDUE article about Macanese cuisine and chose to stay with his Macau parent. Upon arrival he realize the entire daily food of Macau is out of his mind. What role does Wikipedia play in this situation? --146.95.196.216 (talk) 23:04, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@FOARP:Hello? --146.95.31.98 (talk) 02:17, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is it me you're looking for? FOARP (talk) 08:46, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. What's your solution of the almond biscuit and pork chop bun issue? --146.95.196.240 (talk) 22:26, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My solution is . . . these aren't problems for AFD. But hey, I'm only a "tourist" with a "European POV". FOARP (talk) 11:51, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't twist my comment. Your idea was tourist or European, but it doesn't imply you were. --146.95.196.199 (talk) 22:49, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect. Per nom to Macanese cuisine. Can't see a Redirect to Cantonese cuisine – not a plausible arguement as outlined by FOARP and Rosguill above. Britishfinance (talk) 12:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- What about the other two solutions (keep disambiguation page or deletion)? If it has to redirect to Macanese cuisine the article would have to be rewritten. --146.95.196.240 (talk) 22:26, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is a content issue, not an article/topic issue. AfD is not for the content inside an article. thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 00:09, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

IP, if you're interested in correcting this issue, I would suggest drafting some content about Macau cuisine, distinct from Macanese cuisine, in draftspace. Depending on how much coverage you can find in reliable sources, we can then potentially incorporate that into a new article at Macau cuisine. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:14, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Britishfinance, so you believe Macanese cuisine should deal with both the cuisine of the Macanese people but also the cuisine of other Macau peoples? --146.95.196.199 (talk) 22:49, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosguill, perhaps I'll rewrite Macanese cuisine into a dual-topic article. Once there are enough content about Macau cuisine, it can be split into two articles. If you are redirecting Macau cuisine, make sure it's a Wikidata redirect to Macanese cuisine#Macau cuisine. --146.95.196.199 (talk) 22:49, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Macanese cuisine. Macau cuisine is a likely search term, and should point somewhere. I note that Cuisine of Macau, a synonym for Macau cuisine, already redirects to Macanese cuisine. The first sentence of the lede of Macanese cuisine already links to Cantonese cuisine and Portuguese cuisine, the other two topics on the DAB page.

An alternative might be to convert Macau cuisine to a WP:BCA, with a sentence or two on each specific topic. One thing Macau cuisine is not is a DAB page: see MOS:DABNOENTRY. DAB pages are intended to distinguish between ambiguous terms; here, only Macanese cuisine is a full title match, Cantonese and Portuguese cuisines are related topics and there is no ambiguity. If that is done, Cuisine of Macau should be retargetted to it. Narky Blert (talk) 11:49, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.