Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mark McNulty (footballer)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep the whole shebang with leave to renominate any of these individually. Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:59, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mark McNulty (footballer)

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Article about a player who has not played in a fully professional league, failing WP:NFOOTBALL, and has not received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, failing WP:GNG. Argyle 4 Life^talk 23:36, 29 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am also nominating the following related pages because they fail the notability criteria listed above. Argyle 4 Life^talk 00:02, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Argyle 4 Life^talk 00:03, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:35, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. While the League of Ireland isn't fully professional, it is the national league, and the league is a reasonably high ranking one in terms of UEFA coefficients. It is ranked just behind Finland, which wiki says is fully pro and therefore allowed to have player profiles. I have proposed lots of deletions of Irish footballers who weren't notable, but these players are notable. Some of these players have won national football awards, both as individuals and with clubs, which certainly makes them notable. These players do not fail WP:GNG because they receive significant, reliable coverage from independent, secondary sources.

Also, why are only Cork City players up for discussion here? Should you not have listed the majority of players from all clubs in the League of Ireland and IFA Premiership if you're going about a mass deletion? Hsetne (talk) 05:54, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep because the players meet WP:GNG and are borderline WP:NFOOTBALL Mondogmon (talk) 10:48, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They fail WP:NTEMP, and unfortunately they are on the wrong side of that NFOOTBALL border! Giant Snowman 14:43, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of whether we think the League of Ireland is (or was) fully-professional or not, delete Gearóid Morrissey, Spillane, Kenneally, Murphy, Kavanagh, Holland, Escudé-Candau, Krzanowski and Rory Morrissey as these players have not even played at the top level of Irish football or any other league that is sufficient for them to pass WP:NFOOTY (I think that's everyone - long list!). J Mo 101 (talk) 11:32, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I'm a little surprised that all 20 of these players are AfD'd together. WP:BUNDLE says "If any of the articles you are considering for bundling could stand on its own merits, then it should be nominated separately. Or to put it more succinctly, if you are unsure of whether to bundle an article or not, do not." This AfD lumps players with long careers at the top level of their country's football, appearances in Europe, and plenty of media coverage, in with 19-year-olds who only just made their first-team debut. Struway2 (talk) 11:55, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will hold my hand up and say that including the experienced players with honours alongside younger players without them was a mistake on my part. I nominated them because there was nothing substantial in the articles about their careers in European competition. As a result of your findings, I have no objection to removing O'Halloran, Horgan and O'Brien from the discussion. Argyle 4 Life^talk 20:46, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep O'Halloran. As far as football notability is concerned, player made his senior debut for Cork City aged 17 in the 1998/99 Cup-Winners' Cup against CSKA Kiev, and played for them as they progressed through two qualifying rounds of the 2005/06 UEFA Cup to the rounds proper of that competition against Slavia Prague. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't enough media coverage to pass WP:BIO on a player who, apart from playing in Europe (with Derry City and Shelbourne as well as Cork City), is a former under-21 international with a long career behind him at the top level of Irish football, including League of Ireland titles with two different clubs, took his club to a tribunal to obtain release when they failed to pay him, and has his own regular column on a major Irish football website. Struway2 (talk) 11:55, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete everyone but O'Halloran, who has played at a sufficent level in European competitions - the rest all fail WP:NFOOTBALL and WP:GNG. Giant Snowman 14:43, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's factually incorrect. There's a lot more players in the above list than just Greg O'Halloran who've played in European competitions. Hsetne (talk) 16:22, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Horgan. Played in the same games as O'Halloran in the 2005/06 UEFA Cup. Played in the Champions League qualifiers in 2006/07, progressing through one round then losing to Crvena Zvezda (Red Star Belgrade). Player has a 10-year career at the top level of Irsh football and won the LoI with Cork City. Sorry these !votes are coming individually by player, but it takes time to check each one, and there are an awful lot of football-related deletions currently open, not just at this AfD. Struway2 (talk) 16:10, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Mark McNulty, Ian Turner, Stephen Mulcahy, Greg O'Halloran, Davin O'Neill, Vinny Sullivan, Derek O'Brien, Alan Carey, Timmy Kiely, Neal Horgan have all played as full-time pros when the League of Ireland was fully professional. Shane Duggan also played as a full-time pro, but was deleted. Hsetne (talk) 16:22, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If there were seasons in which the LoI was fully-professional, do you have reliable sources to prove it? because if so, it would be constructive to bring them up at the Fully pro leagues talk page. There was a discussion once before that didn't really convince people that it ever had been. Struway2 (talk) 18:02, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It'd be difficult to get reliable sources and I'd prefer not to get dragged into that discussion at the moment. I do agree with comments in that discussion in relation to how "professional" is defined, and that even if the League of Ireland isn't full time now that players in it are notable, taking the UEFA Coefficient ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient#Current_ranking ) the League of Ireland is ranked just below the Veikkausliiga. The UEFA Coefficient is a much better indication of whether a league's players are notable than wikipedia's definitions.

I would like to direct attention to Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Notability: "Players are deemed notable if they meet any of the criteria below: (1) Have played for a fully professional club at a national level of the league structure. This must be supported by evidence from a reliable source on a club by club basis for teams playing in leagues that are not recognised as being fully professional. (2) Have played in a competitive fixture between two fully professional clubs in a domestic, Continental or Intercontinental club competition." They should cover those players. Also "Should a person fail to meet these additional criteria, they may still be notable under Wikipedia:Notability". Hsetne (talk) 18:32, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As to sporting notability, the page Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Notability is an essay which was never accepted outside the project. WP:NSPORTS, which is significantly more restrictive, is the current guideline. Struway2 (talk) 18:38, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I know, but WP:NSPORTS is seriously flawed. There should be some sort of revision made to WP:NFOOTBALL to take into account official governing body league rankings such as the UEFA coefficients as mentioned above. If these players don't satisfy WP:NFOOTBALL, they still do satisfy WP:GNG. Hsetne (talk) 18:46, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep O'Brien. Played for St Patricks Athletic as they progressed through two qualifying rounds of the 2008/09 UEFA Cup to the rounds proper of that competition against Hertha Berlin. Struway2 (talk) 18:02, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestion - close this AfD and renominate any that haven't played European football - I think the amount of articles nominated/evidence presented etc. etc. is getting a bit confusing. Giant Snowman 15:38, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep all They satisfy WP:GNG, they have received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Loitid (talk) 09:10, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.