Talk:ალაგი

• The direction "Geo: ალაგი => Arm: աղագ" is much more possible. - Abkhazian1 (talk) 15:56, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Not impossible. What are the meanings of Laz and Mingrelian? Where did you find them? According to Ačaṙean, the word is also is found in Abkhaz as alago. --Vahag (talk) 16:47, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

I wrote, but in Georgian. May be Dixtosa will help us with it. I got these words from various dictionaries (also I'm a native speaker of Mingrelian). As for Alago, it is unknown for me, even I can't find it in dictionaries of Gvantseladze, Kaslandzia or Genko. Just Алаӷьа, but absolutely unrelated. - Abkhazian1 (talk) 17:53, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

• If the words და-ლაგება (da-lageba, “to tidy up”), გან-ლაგება (gan-lageba, “to order”) etc. are related to this word it might mean the root is *lag- ?--Dixtosa (talk) 16:22, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Exactly. ამ აზრს ემხრობა "ალაგი"-ს როგორც თავდაპირველი (იხ. აქ [1]), ისე მეგრულში, გურულსა და იმერულში დღემდე შემორჩენილი მნიშვნელობა - "გზაზე, ღობეზე გადებული (resp. გადალაგებული) გადასასვლელი ადგილი (ადრე კეთდებოდა ხისგან, მოგვიანოდ რკინისგანაც); ადგილი, [სადაც ამგვარი რამაა დადებული]", შემდგომში ზოგადად "ადგილი" და სიტყვის "ო-/-ე"-თი წარმოება მეგრულში. ლაზური "ალა(რ)გა" ქართულიდან შეთვისებული ჩანს. ფენრიხი-სარჯველაძეს ამ "ლაგ-"-ის მეგრულ შესატყვისად "ლოგ-" ძირი მოჰყავთ სიტყვა "ლოგუა"-ზე დაყრდნობით, მაგრამ ასეთი სიტყვა არც ცოცხალ მეტყველებაში და არც ლექსიკონებში არ მოწმდება (გარდა გვარისა). დიდი ალბათობით "ლაგ-"-ის ზანური შესატყვისი "ლოგ-" დაცული უნდა იყოს "ლოგინი"-ში, რომლის თავდაპირველი მნიშვნელობაა ხისგან, ფიცრისგან გაკეთებული საწოლი, სკამ-ლოგინი. სიტყვა სალიტერატურო ენაში ზანურიდან ჩანს შეთვისებული. (ამაზე იხ. მ. ჩუხუა, "იბერიულ-იჩქერიულ ენათა შედარებითი გრამატიკა", I, გვ. 388, თბ. 2008). p.s. Sorry for non-english comments. My English's quite poor. - Abkhazian1 (talk) 17:28, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

• • There is such a root, but I don't think it's related. --Vahag (talk) 16:47, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

@კვარია your colleagues were arguing this is a native word and that the Armenian is borrowed from Kartvelian. I am almost convinced. The alternation աղագ (ałag) ~ եղագ (ełag) ~ եղանգ (ełang) is similar to what we see in երինջ (erinǰ). Perhaps you can add the native etymology, using the sources given by Abkhazian1 above and the ones I added at ოლაგე (olage). --Vahag (talk) 20:34, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Vahagn_Petrosyan: ლაჯი (laǯi) can't be cognate with Mingrelian *ლაგ- (*lag-), that's impossible. So Kiphidze's interpretation of "a place for step" is incorrect. The people above (and Chukhua) got carried away by deriving Old Georgian ლოგინი (logini) from Mingrelian, that's really not necessary. As for Proto-Kartvelian *lag- (“to put down, to spread”), it's fairly securely reconstructible. This word could ultimately go back to this root and break down as ა-ლაგ-ი (a-lag-i) (where a- is a derivational prefix: cf., ა-ბან-ო (a-ban-o), ა-დგილ-ი (a-dgil-i), ა-ბედ-ი (a-bed-i), ა-ჩრდილ-ი (a-črdil-i)). კვარია (talk) 12:45, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

@კვარია: Thanks. So Old Georgian ლოგინი (logini) too can be from that Kartvelian root? Is that what Chukhua claims? Vahag (talk) 08:23, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

@Vahagn_Petrosyan: yes, he claims that because in Zan *log- is expected from Proto-Kartvelian *lag-. If Georgian were to derive "bed" from *lag-, it would result in ლაგინი (lagini), so Chukhua considers Georgian to be borrowed from Zan, further connecting it to Svan ლჷრგიმ (lərgim). Bear in mind that this particular work is of questionable character because it's part of this whole obsolete Ibero-Caucasian framework, so he further connects the Kartvelian words to Nakh words (Chechen маьнга (mänga), Ingush маьнги (mängi), and Bats მანგე (mange)). (Chukhua is actually good when he's not trying to do... this) He doesn't mention the probable Armenian origin of ლოგინი (logini) word at all.

As for Fähnrich, as you can see he has three separate roots for Proto-Kartvelian *lag-. One for "to place, to spread", one for "to evaluate, to price", and one for "path, road (?)" (from which he derives ა-ლაგ-ი (a-lag-i), with Svan ლაგა (laga) as cognate; he says that the meaning in Georgian is different from Svan, but it was in fact identical in Old Georgian). კვარია (talk) 11:05, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

@კვარია: Thanks. I am now convinced Armenian աղագ (ałag) is borrowed from Kartvelian. I wonder how do the Circassian forms that I just added fit in. As for Old Georgian ლოგინი (logini), I doubt its Armenian origin from անկողին (ankołin). Those dialectal changes that are supposed to have led to the Old Georgian form would not have happened so early. Vahag (talk) 18:17, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

@Vahagn_Petrosyan: The users above and Chukhua's contention is that it derived from "Mingrelian" (=Zan) ლოგინი, ლოგინუა (logini, loginua). Zan, however, don't preserve *lag- (“to put, to spread”). In modern Mingrelian ლოგინი, ლოგინუა (logini, loginua) is only preserved in the sense of "to price, to evaluate" (which is one of the three *lag- roots in Faenchrich-2007). Any anyway Faenchrich-Sarjveladze themselves don't consider logini to be derived from Zan. Greek version looks less obvious to me than via dialectal form of Armenian tbh. Can't think of an Ancient Greek word that we eroded that much...

PS: I see you linked *lag- in Starostin above (outdated as always). Faenchrich-Sarjveladze prior 2000 didn't have *lag- at all. Klimov has *lag- as 'to plant'. Starting from 2000, Faenchrich-Sarjveladze they added *lag- 'to put, spread', but they consider *rg- 'to plant' to be separate root unless I'm misunderstanding something. You can compare Fae-Sarj 1995, 2000, 2007 vs Klimov 1998. კვარია (talk) 23:28, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

So Mingrelian ლოგონუა (logonua, “to spread out”) found in Fähnrich 2007 and also Klimov / Xalilov 2003 (page 434) is spurious? Vahag (talk) 07:46, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn_Petrosyan: It's in Klimov-Xalilov too? It looks like there's a question mark around Mingrelian in the scanned document too. I thought Faenchrich forgot to put [...] for reconstruction around Mingrelian. I've never heard of this word and neither did the user who posted above in Georgian. It's not in Chukhua too. Faenchrich doesn't have Klimov-Xalilov in his used literature, so where did they all get it from? I don't think Klimov would just make up a word for no reason. კვარია (talk) 09:19, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn_Petrosyan: That was very bad and very educational. I actually thought he reconstructed *lag- IN SPITE of Mingrelian not being preserved. Sorry for your wasting your time. Even a brilliant linguist like Fahnrich can be completely sidetracked because of one simple word. I think two of the *lag- roots reconstructed by Fahnrich-Sarjveladze can be completely discarded (unless of course logonua/logua how he describes it actually exists, it's probably first mentioned in Fähnrich 1984, I'm looking for it right now); only *lag- ('to price, to evaluate') is secure (preserved in both Mingrelian and Svan and both in phonetic agreement). As for alagi, it's probably of Iranian origin. კვარია (talk) 11:49, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Iranian ālag "side" is attractive, but I expect Old Armenian *աղակ (*ałak) from it. Besides, the sense development to "trail" needs an explanation. I wonder if that Iranian word is found in Կապաղակ (Kapałak, “w:ru:Кабала (город)”), as if a city on the side of Կապ-կոհ (Kap-koh, “the Caucasus mountains”). Vahag (talk) 16:13, 1 January 2022 (UTC)