Talk:刃

Differences in appearance

Title added. —Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 11:14, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Why has the information about differences in appearance been deleted? And what's "twaek"?

See also zh:Image:Differences of Chinese characters between places.png. The new language tags (see links to English language sites here) can be used as an alternative to the same image:

• <big>{{lang|zh-Hans-CN|刃}}</big>:
• <big>{{lang|zh-Hant-TW|刃}}</big>:
• <big>{{lang|ja-Hani|刃}}</big>:
• <big>{{lang|ko-Hant|刃}}</big>:

(I hope none of these is actually supposed to be 刄.)

To see the glyph shape difference, you need locale-tailored fonts and must set your browser preferences to use them appropriately. Dustsucker 16:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The differences will be shown properly in the language sections once the bot gets here. Each one uses the correct lang and font-family etc. {{lang}} is borrowed from WP, and is much less specific than the language font templates we use here; as you can see it has severe problems, it should be gotten rid of. (and "lang" is a terrible name on a wikt! it could mean anything!)

and twaek is just my idiosyncratic spelling of tweak, with a different meaning. sorry. Robert Ullmann 17:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't aware that bots are going to insert something even better. I didn't mean to suggest using {{lang}} for this, but wanted to demonstrate that a template with similar code as {{lang}} could do the trick. After my edit, I noticed somewhere else that you seem to already know about it all quite well. Dustsucker 20:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

In addition to the different forms being shown in language-specific sections, I’ve also added a summary {{ja-forms}} and note to the Translingual section so the different forms can easily be compared.

—Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 11:14, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Possible Trace of Absorbed Possessive?

Could it be possible that OJ /jakiba/ was actually *[jaki-mpa]? Might *mpa have come from n-pa < *na-pa / *nə-pa, with *na / nə being the possessive particle (modern な / の)? Sometimes rendaku does not happen even though neither of the compound's two morphemes contains a voiced/prenasalised stop, which will block rendaku (as per Lyman's Law); e.g. Yamakawa [jamakaɰᵝa] "mountain & river" (presumably < OJ /jamakapa/) vs. Yamagawa [jamaŋaɰᵝa] (< OJ /jama-n-kapa/ < /jama-na/nə-kapa/). Erminwin (talk) 21:03, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

@Erminwin: There's a general notion that the rendaku phenomenon was originally just that, a contraction of の (no) causing voicing of the following consonant.

However, for 刃 (yaiba) etymon 焼き刃 (yakiba), the term is only attested as late as 1244, so Old Japanese isn't terribly relevant. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:46, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

yaiba and na

Heya @Poketalker, thank you for your work on this. It's prompted me to take a closer look and a closer think at a few things.  :)

• About the yaiba reading, a tilde over a letter in IPA indicates nasalization. See also w:Tilde#International_Phonetic_Alphabet. There's nothing in the phonology of the shift from yakiba to yaiba that could have caused nasalization. Was there a different diacritic you intended?
• About the na reading, I added that way back in 2012 on the basis of the etyms given in Daijirin, Daijisen, and the KDJ, as visible here at Kotobank, among other places. Looking at it now, I think this na "blade" sense should probably instead go at Japanese な or even Old Japanese な.

What do you think?

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 16:48, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

@Eirikr: of course; at first I thought you might have did the /-ki/ → /-ĩ/ as well in the past, or was it about /mu/ → /ũ/. Else, please summarize what's イ音便 (i-onbin) for tsuitachi, Saitama, tsuide, classical and modern adjectives, etc.

And for the na with the meaning of "blade" or "edge", I can't find it in a dictionary, let alone one from the prewar Dai-Nippon Kokugo Dai Jiten; so it's probably an ancient Korean loan or one you made up. It should be placed in the Etymology section of 刀 (katana) just to match the online dictionaries regardless.

Thoughts? ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 05:26, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Re: the tilde, that was probably in reference to a /mu/ → /ũ/ shift. There, the /m/ as a nasal consonant prompts the nasalization of the following /u/, as the two sounds kind of blended together. For /ɡi/ → /i/, the /ɡ/ has the allophonic realization [ŋ], which again is a nasal. So for 次いで (tsuide), we have an historical progression something like /tuɡite/ → /t͡suĩte/ → /t͡suide/. But for /ki/ → /i/, there is no nasal consonant, so nothing that could cause nasalization.

Re: the na, definitely nothing I made up, but rather got directly from the etyms as listed at Kotobank. Although in retrospect I think I was overly assertive in adding the na reading for 刃, and I did not go as far in my research as I do these days. Had I done so, I would have realized that I couldn't track down any cites of 刃 as na outside of those etymology notes -- which themselves don't include quotes. Given the paucity of other terms manifesting this element (maaaaybe in 鉈 (nata), which may itself also be a Koreanic borrowing; possibly also 鉋 (kanna, “a woodworking plane”)? C.f. Gogen-Allguide), I think you're probably right that it's likely a borrowing, albeit a very old one. Cheers! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 08:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 08:01, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

RFV discussion: September 2020–February 2021

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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刃

Nowhere in Kotobank has the reading な (na) for 刃. However, the final na in 刀 (katana) is most likely a term for "blade" or "edge" and is possibly a loan from a older Korean term. Regarding the pillow word 剣太刀 (tsurugi-tachi), it alludes to only 名 and 汝, both read as indeed na, definitions "name" and "you" respectively. Other than that, KDJ is obscure about this: ②「名」や「汝(な)」にかかる。刃(な)と同音であるところからか。 "...thought to be homonymous with 刃 (na?, “blade, edge”)." ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 02:56, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

See also related thread at Talk:刃#yaiba_and_na.

Summary -- while a na element did exist with an apparent meaning of "blade", it is not attested with the 刃 spelling. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:51, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

• I've moved the relevant section off of the 刃 page and onto the な page, and updated the 刀 page to reflect the other two changes.

I think this RFV is done. @POKéTalker, please have a look, adjust as appropriate, and strike this entry if all looks good to you. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:54, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

• Striking. @POKéTalker, if this is in error and there are lingering issues, please un-strike and update this thread accordingly. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:43, 1 February 2021 (UTC)