User talk:JuTa

Welcome to Wikidata, JuTa!

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Best regards! Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 09:10, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Given names

Please do not modify given name statements to use initials instead of full names when the full name is available. That is not the correct use of the property. --Yair rand (talk) 22:04, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Also, please try to be careful to not have the property point to pseudonyms, stage names, pen names, nicknames, etc. Thanks. --Yair rand (talk) 22:47, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi Yair rand, when the lemmata in the various projects using that pseudonyms, nichnames etc that should be used in the wikidata items as well, because in many cases it has an impact to the content of those lemmatas. regards. --JuTa (talk) 00:03, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're referring to by "lemmata", but the name properties do not need to match the titles of linked pages on client wikis. If those pages are using Wikidata name data in a way that would expect pseudonyms and such, they are using it incorrectly. --Yair rand (talk) 00:44, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Yair rand: Well the lemmata are the titles of the wikipedia ... articels of those people. And if someone anywhere is called i.e. "Andy Schmith" (the title of his wikipedia article and i.e. the commons category for him), the name in his wikidata item should be Andy and not Andrew (even if this is his passport name), cause he is anywhere known as Andy. regards --JuTa (talk) 00:53, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia article titles work by policies like w:WP:COMMONNAME, which have very different objectives than Wikidata's name properties. Article titles are for recognizability and naturalness, among other priorities. Wikidata name properties are for precise structured data, not constrained by space, convenience, or human usability/readability. A Wikidata item is displayed by its label, not its name properties, and these are allowed to differ. --Yair rand (talk) 00:57, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Yair rand: Well, on Commons, where I come from, pleople get automaticly categorized into their family name and given name items by commons:Template:Wikidata infobox. That should fit together somebody runnung under commons category Andy Smith should not be categorized into commons:Category:Andrew (given name) but into commons:Category:Andy (given name). I' currently trying to fix your reverts by moving the commons people categories accross to "your" old names. regards. --JuTa (talk) 01:04, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

If the problem is with the template on Commons, better to fix the template than to mess around with the underlying data. Name statements aren't intended to match article titles. --Yair rand (talk) 01:22, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not sure I'm understanding the problem here. Do Commons categories need to be named according to the subject's proper full name instead of their common name, while needing to be sorted into name categories for their common names, with Andy Smith needing to be categorized under the nickname? Is this for helping users search for things? If so, that's really not a good fit for using Wikidata data instead of local categories at all. --Yair rand (talk) 01:33, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Yair rand: Have a look at commons:Category:Andy Smith (American football). His Commons category and his wikipedia article is named "Andy" even the text if his article calles him "Andrew Latham Smith". He is known as "Andy" and should be categorized under "Andy" and not under Andrew. regards. --JuTa (talk) 01:40, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

If so, the Commons infobox should not be using Wikidata to produce these categories. --Yair rand (talk) 02:01, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

But thats what wikidata is good for.... shaking head. --JuTa (talk) 02:04, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Wikidata has been intended as a “free and open knowledge base” in the form of a “storage for structured data”. If the data can be can be extracted and used by other wikiprojects, it's great and should be supported. But the primary objective shouldn't be abandoned just because some particular project wants to use wikidata as a maintenance tool in accordance with it's policies. --Shlomo (talk) 08:12, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

@JuTa, Yair rand, Shlomo: Surely we want to store on Wikidata that Andy Smith (Q4761327) has given name (P735) = Andrew (Q18042461), but uses diminutive (Q108709) = Andy (Q13627273)? That's then fully structured, and the infobox code could be adapted to use it. The thing I'm not sure of is if there is a current/standard way to record diminutive (Q108709) as a property/qualifier, or if that needs a new property - thoughts? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 10:53, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

My two cents: "Given name" refers to birth name, IMHO, so I tend to agree with @Yair rand: on this and avoid stating diminutives as given names. I do retain the most common name form as the item label, use birth name (P1477) to state the full name (and also make it an alias), and nickname (P1449) to state the diminutive. For given name (P735), I stick to the birth name. The impact on the Commons categorization is quite minor: I guess users will quickly figure that given name categories are based on birth names. See Hib Milks (Q3135136) for an example. LaddΩ chat ;) 13:27, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

@LaddΩ: The birth name containes the full name of the people (given and familyname). That could get hard to automatcly decide which is the family and which is the given part, because we have people with multiple given or family names, or i.e. east asian people have the family name first before the given name. --JuTa (talk) 15:58, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

@Mike Peel: There are not only deminutives. There are maiden names, pseudonyms, stage names and likely more possibilities for different names to the lemma (title of the article or category). --JuTa (talk) 16:00, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

If that info can be structured on Wikidata, then we can tweak the infobox to use that info. There is an issue with things like birth name (P1477) in that they are strings that combine both the first and last name together, which isn't structured enough to figure out which is which. It's a data modelling issue much more than a project policy issue, I think. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 21:28, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

You can add multiple statements to P735 and qualify them appropriately. Wikidata isn't a birth registry. --- Jura 18:24, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

I do add multiple statements to P735. What is the problem? --JuTa (talk) 18:28, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Names

Please, when you create a name item, add the basic necessary properties: instance of (P31), native label (P1705) (with language code "mul" for Latin-script names), and writing system (P282). For Japanese names, native label (P1705) should be in kanji and you also need to add name in kana (P1814). You can then use the gadget namescript (just add in your common.js "importScript ( 'User:Harmonia_Amanda/namescript.js' );") to add correct labels, aliases and descriptions.

Please do not create Japanese/Hebrew/Chinese/Cyrillic/Arabic/other names with only information in Latin-script. Do not create given names + patronymics as if they are compound given names. Do not create patronymics as if they are given names. Do not use a Latin-script names for someone whose name is not originally in Latin-script… We also use the property pseudonym (P742) for pseudonyms, not given name (P735)/family name (P734).

I know human names are complicated, but please, we have a Wikidata:WikiProject_Names with explanations about how to do things, tools and gadgets to help. Don't hesitate to ask for help. --Harmonia Amanda (talk) 13:53, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi Harmonia Amanda, thanks for the tips. Up to now I thought the minimum required was the "instant of". The rest will be done by bots. I will try to add native label and writing system in future. Btw. I activated your script - see User:JuTa/common.js , but I dont see any difference to before. What it is intented to do? And what should look differently like before? I'm using the monobook interface. Might be its not working for that. --JuTa (talk) 17:42, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Doppelnamen

User Sapphorain hat ein Problem damit, dass Doppelnamen in wikidata in ihre Bestandteile aufgeteilt werden siehe hier. Er revidiert meine Änderungen. Was ist jetzt die richtige Vorgehensweise? Ich bin in Fremdsprachen nicht mächtig und kann ihn deshalb nicht anschreiben. --NeverDoING (talk) 17:40, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Wie es für wikidata richtig, weiss ich nicht genau. Für die Commons wikidata infobox hatten wir uns darauf geeinigt, solche Doppelnamen einzeln zu kategorisieren - siehe dortige Disku-Seite. Evtl. mal auf Wikidata talk:WikiProject Names nachfragen? Dann könnten wir unsere Aktivitäten entsprechend anpassen, ich bin nämlich auch dabei solche Doppel-Namen zu "vereinzeln". Gruß --JuTa (talk) 17:48, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Compound given name

Please stop deleting compound given name on Jean-Marie Le Pen (Q7177) and other items. In French, a compound given name is one given name. The hyphen indicates that it is a single word. So "Jean-Marie" is not the same thing as "Jean Marie". Ayack (talk) 08:48, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, do please stop that. The components "Jean" and "Marie" are already clearly indicated in the Wikidata item "Jean-Marie", it it unnecessary (and incorrect) to repeat it under the declaration "given names". Sapphorain (talk) 11:20, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, in the past I got complaines because I merged (spanish) double-names, now I get complaines because I split french double names. It seems the behaviour of double-names in various languages is much more different than I expected.

PS: @Sapphorain: What is the Familyname of Jean-Marie Duvergier de Hauranne? Currently he has just none.

regards --JuTa (talk) 19:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

As obviously your mother tongue is not French, you should simply avoid messing around with French names. The same should apply to any language which is not your mother tongue. Double (triple, quadruple also, but especially double) names is a complicated matter in French. Sometimes it really corresponds to one single given name, and sometimes it does not. In doubt, I think we should always consider it corresponds to one single name. Among the most obvious cases (for a French-speaking person} are "Jean-Jacques", "Jean-Marie", and in fact "Jean-(any other first name)", which no French speaking individual will consider (or pronounce) as being two separate names. I think nobody ever referred to Jean-Jacques Rousseau as "Jean Rousseau". As for the family name of Jean-Marie Duvergier de Hauranne it is, simply and evidently, "Duvergier de Hauranne", see [1]. Regards. Sapphorain (talk) 20:28, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

• (Not stalking, related issue) At last you said something correct about compound names: "It seems the behaviour of double-names in various languages is much more different than I expected." Well this is a right sentence. However, it is not your "only" problem; there are others. At Commons you opened Category:Ali Rıza (given name); it is also you who opened Category:Ali Riza (given name) (sic). There is no such name as "Ali Riza" in Turkish and the only person you added in this latter category has the name "Ali Rıza" and not "Ali Riza". (Whatever name they have given to Ali Rıza Babaoğlan in Commons is not my problem and would prefer not to dig much into it.) After this explanation, I kindly request you to make "Category:Ali Riza (given name)" an RD to the correct Category:Ali Rıza (given name) and move "Category:Ali Riza Babaoglan" (sic) to the correct name: Category:Ali Rıza Babaoğlan. I am asking you these favours here, because, as maybe you may be aware of, I try to avoid Commons due to the arrogant acts of some haughty admins... Auf wiedersehen. --E4024 (talk) 02:15, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Done, thanx for the note. --JuTa (talk) 18:07, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Unisex given name

Hi JuTa,

At Jacques (Q941049) you added claims that this is a female given name and a unisex sex given name. Can you provide us with references for both claims?

By default, please add "given name" if you can't provide references for P31 values. --- Jura 15:14, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Jura, when it is a male name and a female name, it is per definition a unisex name, isnt it? A unisex name is a name used by males and females, what else? What type of refenrence so you need? As refenrence for a woman using that name I have i.e. Marie-Jacques Perrier (Q6762673) and for male name thousends of men of corse. --JuTa (talk) 19:04, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

(Not stalking, related issue) Interesting. In the case of Anka (female name and male name) you just reverted me with the opposite argument... --E4024 (talk) 01:52, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi E4024, that was more a question of handling. If we change the Instance of of Anka (Q12748380) to unisex name, we should also change a lot of already existing Descriptions in about 200 languages (namually), which I am unable to do , cause I dont speak such languages. In this case it was easier to create Anka (Q73527614). regards. --JuTa (talk) 18:13, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

So you think that all given names are unisex names? (except maybe in countries like Iceland, that restrict uses of given names) --- Jura 11:52, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Jura. No, I think all given names used by males and females are unisex names. A lot of given names are only used by either males or females. regards --JuTa (talk) 12:57, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Names names names

Hi. You have opened "Category:Mumtaz (given name)" in Commons as a "male given name". However, if you had looked at WD, you would have seen that this is a unisex given name, especially in the Indian Subcontinent and probably there are more female people called Mumtaz than males here in WD. OTOH, I just opened here the item Mümtaz, which is a purely male name in TURKISH. FYI. Best regards. --E4024 (talk) 18:27, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Q76074482

I found that you have added a Commons sitelink to this item. Are you sure they are the same person (i.e. This person of United Nations Conference on Trade and Development is the wife of Robert Hurran)? There're various other people with such a name, and it is not very common for a woman to use her maiden name (wife of Robert Hurran should usually be Susan Hurran). You should always add a source (unless you know her personally). If you are not sure that they are the same, you should create a new item for that Commons person (you should also add more statements to it, to populate the Commons infobox).--GZWDer (talk) 00:25, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I know nothing about this person. I regularly work on commons uncategorized categories and I search on wikidata for them, when I find a fitting item I connect both and put a commons:template:Wikidata Infofox to the commons cat plus some sensefull manual parent cats. If you have a reasonable doubt that the item is not the person of the commons cat, please feel free to remove it. --JuTa (talk) 04:42, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Native Korean names vs. Sinokorean names

Hello, at Sa-rang (Q69508550), you changed the main spelling to "Sa-rang". However, the hyphen is only allowed for Sinokorean names. But Sarang is a native Korean name, which is why a spelling with the hyphen is not allowed as Romanization and considered wrong. Even for Sino Korean names, the spelling without hyphen is recommended and the one with hyphen is only tolerated. But for native Korean name = never hyphen. --Christian140 (talk) 11:19, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, all perople linked to it are called Sa-rang in english. I just followed that. --JuTa (talk) 13:03, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Korean names

Lern mal bitte Koreanisch, bevor du Objekte zu koreanischen Vornamen bearbeitest oder neue anlegst. Dabei kann man sich nicht auf willkürlich englische Schreibweisen verlassen. Zum gleichen Namen kannst du 20 verschiedene "englische" Schreibweisen finden oder erfinden. Die sollte aber sicherlich nicht alle ein eigenes Objekt haben. Die "Auch bekannt als"-Eigenschaft reicht völlig aus, wobei ich die ganzen willkürlichen Schreibweisen auch da nicht eintragen würde, sondern nur die revidierte Romanisierung und McCune-Reischauer, mit und ohne Bindestrich. --Christian140 (talk) 13:11, 27 May 2021 (UTC)