Talk:Bitcoin Cash

Removal of NPOV: opinion as facts

Using bitcoin in the name with "the goal of creating money out of thin air"... this framing appears strongly opinionated and does not seem to correspond with a large portion of the article. The article talks about bitcoin being used as a means of storing wealth, whereas bitcoin cash is used as an alternative to fiat. The article also discusses why the fork occurred - bitcoin cash developers wanted to increase block sizes for faster transactions, so this statement about bitcoin cash developers wanting to create money out of thin air appears to be nothing more than an opinion stated as a fact and should be removed Artem P75 (talk) 21:33, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Reading the article, it does not specify that Bitcoin Cash was created to "creat[e] money out of thin air" but rather "started" a craze of slight modifications to "creat[e] money out of thin air

There is no backup for this statement, regardless, and this also contradicts what was stated elsewhere in the article (as you mention).

With that said, I think the line can just be cleanly removed without issue. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:33, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the correction, I may have been wrong in assuming WP:NPOV as the source for this quote does appear to be WP:RS, although yes, with that in mind I do still believe that this may be an irrelevant piece of information and more likely WP:Relevance, possibly WP:UNDUE? To me it just appears as an impartial piece of material and somewhat contributes to a negative ambience for the article as a whole, rather than maintaining impartiality Artem P75 (talk) 23:50, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I think you mean it appears "partial"?

The original article may have been neutral in PoV, but the writing here seems to have misconstrued it (probably unintentionally as the source writing is not the clearest).

I'll give this a couple days if anyone has any comments but otherwise I'll remove the one line in question. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:55, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Apologies again, yes I meant that it does not maintain impartiality, but yes that sounds good, if it is not contested I agree it would be better off removed Artem P75 (talk) 00:16, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The "thin air" is a quote and accurately reflects the controversy surrounding this article subject and thus is a keep. This is probably one of (if not the) most notable of the forks that created a new currency, literally creating money out of thin air. It is historical and WP:DUE. I suggest you both look through the archives on this talk page, most of this stuff has been discussed at lengths over the years. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:17, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Understood, I will look through the archive, I just feel as though this would be more appropriate on the Bitcoin page as these coins were a fork of Bitcoin, not Bitcoin Cash... I can see how this topic can be fit in to this article, however it feels as though it would be more relevant to Bitcoin, possibly under a "Forks" heading Artem P75 (talk) 21:03, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

The source refers to this article subject. Bitcoin Cash is literally the fork that the author was referring to that sought to create money out of thin air. This article is already somewhat sparse in terms of notability (not as bad as other smaller coins), and this Bitcoin Cash largely notable from the controversy surrounding the contentious fork. So it would not be logical to prune that stuff, or really anything for that matter, from this article. The main Bitcoin article is quite the opposite and we have been moving things off it to sub-articles (like this one). When we have a WP:TOOBIG issue we move content from the main article to sub-articles, not the other way around. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:50, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

"When it split off a year ago, Bitcoin Cash jump-started the forking craze in which dozens of software-development teams sought to create money out of thin air by tweaking the original computer code and releasing coins with “Bitcoin” in their names (hello, Bitcoin Diamond)." -- The author does not specifically name Bitcoin Cash as "[seeking]" to create money out of thin air. The author states that Bitcoin Cash "jump-started" the "forking craze," where "teams" (unspecified) "sought to create money out of thin air." -- The author "literally" calls out "Bitcoin Diamond," rather than "Bitcoin Cash." ||| A trend starting from an action does not inherently mean that the action itself is part of the named trend. ILoveFinance (talk) 14:11, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Would you like to increase the size of the quote to say "Bitcoin Cash jump-started the in which dozens of software-development teams sought to create money out of thin air by tweaking the original computer code and releasing coins with “Bitcoin” in their names." This is certainly related to this article. I think we chose the shorter quote and sought to summarize the rest of it, and it seems to do an ok job to me. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:41, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

For the sake of accuracy, at the very least the quote should be amended. Saying that the intention of the fork was to create money out of thin air is simply just not true and is very misleading 65.181.1.222 (talk) 21:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, the above response was me, I did not realize I had been logged out before commenting Artem P75 (talk) 22:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I did not realize until just now, the phrasing of the beginning of the sentence is actually incorrect. BitcoinXT was the first fork, followed by Bitcoin Classic. Bitcoin Unlimited maybe can be considered...but that might be stretching it. I will think on rephrasing the beginning while leaving the quote for now. Source: https://www.cnbctv18.com/cryptocurrency/a-list-of-bitcoin-forks-and-how-they-have-changed-the-network-13318902.htm ILoveFinance (talk) 00:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

^For clarity, the first network fork. I have updated language accordingly. ILoveFinance (talk) 00:51, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

@Artem P75 @Jtbobwaysf How about this: ...."which '[created] money out of thin air.'"? Does that meet with both of your approvals? Keeps the factual and removes the contention. That would be much more accurate phrasing. ILoveFinance (talk) 00:52, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I think this is more factually accurate, although I still am not personally a fan of the source and think that the inclusion of this information is not really significant - I do agree with @User:Jtbobwaysf that the fork is very historical and probably one of, if not the most important in cryptocurrency history... I just think that the way it is mentioned implies a sense of greed / selfishness in the motive of the fork when from What I have seen, this was not the case. I think a better source with a more neutral POV may be more ideal, although the source requirements for cyrpto articles seem very strict so I do understand this may be difficult Artem P75 (talk) 01:13, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Careful with the "most important" -- even if passionate, careful phrasing is important. -- granted, if coming from the context that much debate and controversy came as a result of that fork, then I can more see the point. However, still, phrasing is important. Historical, though, no doubt.

I don't disagree, but I don't have an argument without a better source at this time to counter Jt's points. But I think a more accurate phrasing while retaining the meat of the quote would be appropriate. ILoveFinance (talk) 01:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Can always seek out and add more sources and POVs to this article. This article is quite sparse and doesnt seem to have much improvement in a few years. Different views generally speaking help WP:NPOV. However, we are not going to remove views to try to create WP:FALSEBALANCE. I think the create word needs to stay and dont see any reason to remove it, it will interfere with the meaning and is in the original source right? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 02:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed -- please see my suggestion above (it keeps the word "create").

(I know you likely have hundreds of notifications, thanks for taking the time to respond!) ILoveFinance (talk) 03:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure what is exactly being proposed and why. Might be easier to put quotes of what you want to change from and to. Are you seeking to drop the word "attempted"? I think the original wording was fine and if you want to update to more of a longer quote, can do that as well. It should either way convey the source's meaning. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:53, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Not sure why a number of edits were undone. Anyways, specifically for this:

Currently it states:

Bitcoin Cash was the first of the Bitcoin forks, in which software-development teams modified the original Bitcoin computer code and released coins with “Bitcoin" in their names, with "the goal of creating money out of thin air".

My proposal is to change to:

Bitcoin Cash was the first of the Bitcoin forks to produce split coins, in which software-development teams modified the original Bitcoin computer code and released coins with “Bitcoin" in their names, which "[created] money out of thin air".

This keeps it accurate and mentions the critical part of the quote, that you mentioned, of creating money. Also it adds clarification about Bitcoin forks to mention producing split coins, because Bitcoin Cash was *not* the first fork, even per the very link to the Bitcoin forks page. It is the first network fork where split coins were created. ILoveFinance (talk) 11:41, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

there is no need to modify the quote to put in brackets. second "split coins" is WP:JARGON and discouraged. Generally the use of the piped in text is also discouraged, so we try to keep it as close to (or ideally totally eliminate) the piped in text. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 11:51, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

brackets are used when changing a specific word to fit the grammar/tense of the sentence it is being put into. Only one word is put in brackets but it is the same word.

"split coins" is not JARGON as it is clearly referenced on the Bitcoin forks page which is linked to. It is also a very important distinction as there were many forks before Bitcoin Cash. Bitcoin Cash was the first to produce "split coins."

Please confirm. ILoveFinance (talk) 12:18, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

No to adding piped in text to add jargon, we follow what the sources say and this is widely referred to as a hard fork of bitcoin. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:26, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

"piped"? It is not jargon.

Did I claim/say otherwise (pertaining to Bitcoin Cash being a hard fork of Bitcoin)? No. The line itself does not specify "hard fork." It references another page which clearly indicates that Bitcoin Cash was not the first "fork" of Bitcoin. ILoveFinance (talk) 18:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

It seems you are trying to add the WP:JARGON "split" that is WP:PIPEd into content in which the source refers to fork. Is that correct? That is is a no-no, I dont need keep explaining why. Please read WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 02:54, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

@Jtbobwaysf for clarity, again, the quote isn't even correct. The article does not say "goal of." I am revising to keep the nature and removing this PIPE'd language. ILoveFinance (talk) 17:14, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

LEAD changes

@ILoveFinance: you made a wholesale change to the LEAD, which I reverted here. Please be advised that the MOS:LEAD summarizes the article and does not introduce new concepts. Please discuss here what you are trying to do. In this earlier edit you removed a sentence from the LEAD. I will also leave a note on your talk page about this. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:33, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Your series of reverts claim inaccuracy and make false claims.

Your revert of the LEAD change has two claims (listed here/on my talk page) which I will address below:

1. I removed the mention of BSV for some "odd" reason and what I claimed I changed was "not accurate" Incorrect. I moved it to the History section, right above the XEC split, which is the proper place for that sentence to belong. That keeps the History section in order of events by date, and has the two contested hard fork chain splits listed together. The line was not removed, it was moved. This no doubt improves readability.
2. I introduced "odd" concepts not supported by the article Please specifically state where this/what was done? The lines used are supported by the sources in the article. I am curious to see what you suggest is not accurate/supported.

As for other reverts without any reason listed other than "not an improvement" -- can you please be more descriptive?

ILoveFinance (talk) 11:57, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

We dont remove things from the lead to put them in the body. You have made comments on this talk page seeking to remove the mention of BSV from this article (and when that didnt fly) and you instead removed it from the LEAD using an edit summary that didnt accurately reflect what you were doing. Be advised of WP:SUMMARYNO. When there is an article that discusses two topics, in this case two forks of bitcoin called BCH and BSV, it is not ok to remove mention of one of those with a misleading edit summary, in what is effectively Wikipedia:Blanking (as the lead is so small). Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 12:08, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I did. Because I am engaging in discussion for things that appear to be large changes. Did I remove it? No. Just moved it.

Ok, so BSV is an article within the BCH article, thereby it should be in the summary. That is more understandable. Reason for "as the lead is so small" seems an odd reason particularly as the link you reference "WP:SUMMARYNO" says "Avoid long summaries."

Can you please describe how the other wording changes in the lead are inaccurate? If they are not, I will revert your revert, but keep BSV mentioned in the lead in. The edit is a very clearly accurate description of what occurred providing helpful context that the blockchains are shared up until 1 August 2017. ILoveFinance (talk) 12:15, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

For clarity, again, (though this is mentioned on my talk page) it was moved exactly as per my edit comment. Please do not make false claims. If you are instead stating that I should have been even more descriptive, rather than claiming I was intentionally misleading, that's different, but something important to specify. ILoveFinance (talk) 12:21, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Please leave accurate edit summaries. Please also dont remove things from the lead and place them in the body of the article. You have made numerous requests on this talk page to remove the BSV content from this article. The BSV content belongs on this article as it has nowhere else to go and thus it will continue to be summarized in the LEAD, as that is what the lead does, it summarizes. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:23, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Can you please comment on the reversion of the other changes I made to the lead? Those were very accurate. ILoveFinance (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The changes you made to the lead were not constructive. What specifically are you wanting to change and why? I've already explain about the "split" and the removal of the BSV. Did you have any other changes? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:32, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Please read what you removed in the summary. As stated, for further accuracy and edification of any reader. As you are the one reverting, the onus is on you to read the changes and state specifically what is not correct. Please review what I had changed and clarify specifically why it was reverted. Thanks. ILoveFinance (talk) 22:05, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

By the way, how many times do you edit/delete your responses? 4 times each for the most recent 2 responses. Generally each notification I get is complemented by an additional at least. Really clutters my notifications. ILoveFinance (talk) 22:07, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Please refer to WP:ONUS which states the ONUS is upon you to find a new consensus to override long standing consensus on many of the contentious items you seek to change. I apologize, I now notice that your changes are more comprehensive than I had initially noticed, however the reason for my revert stands, it is based upon ONUS. Most of these items you are seeking to edit appear to be WP:PROMO in nature and most have been discussed in the past and you will need to demonstrate with new sources why those should change. You can find those discussions in the talk page archives, and link to that. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:49, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

You must back up "content[ion]," not just claim. BSV mention? Fair enough at this time. The other changes to LEAD, please describe.

Please specify exactly, as I have already requested, how specifically the changes to the initial part of LEAD "appear to be WP:PROMO." You are simply making a baseless claim at this time. And as I have stated, the information included is supported by the sources currently included in the article. The sources specifically mention that there is a split, blockchains shared until the hard fork point, etc. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:16, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Let me make it easy for you on supporting information from existing sources. Per Footnote 10 (WSJ):

"How is Bitcoin Cash Different from bitcoin?

In most respects, it is similar to bitcoin. It works the same way, and it has the exact same transaction history as the original bitcoin, up to Aug. 1, 2017. Its primary difference is that it is designed to allow more transactions to pass through, on a per-second basis, than bitcoin, which leads to lower user fees. And, of course, because it is a different market, Bitcoin Cash’s price moves independent of bitcoin itself."

I don't need to specifically call out the rest of the support from the existing sources, the ONUS is on you to do that if you claim they are PROMO or are factually not accurate per sources.

Thanks. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:27, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, re-reviewing your reversion of 5 of my edits, please provide specific basis for each reversion. I added other critical details or minor clarifications/abbreviations (all supported by sources, by the way). If you do not have basis for the reversions, please undo your edit. Or, be specific as to which you are objecting to and on what basis. Thanks. ILoveFinance (talk) 00:14, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

What about "Footnote 10 (WSJ)" are referring to specifically? Please provide here on talk, suggest to use 'want to change A to B' and the sources for it are xyz. The article says (in relation to the reference No 10 that I am guessing you are referring to) presently says: "Bitcoin Cash is a spin-off or altcoin that was created in 2017." Are you hoping to edit this summary in the LEAD or do something else? Thanks Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:13, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

You can read what I wrote. The history is there. I have also quoted a specific part of Footnote 10. Please stop failing basic reading comprehension (as you yourself admitted you failed to do).

As I have repeated ad nauseam, you need to specifically state, for every reversion (not just the lead), why you reverted it. You have thus far primarily made wide-stroking and baseless claims. Please specify. This filibustering is not productive. ILoveFinance (talk) 13:42, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

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You also willfully ignore the multitude of points I make and broad stroke...is it in hope that I forget about the other points?

To list out a couple of the main points (with plenty of context above that you can read if you choose not to ignore it (as again, you admitted yourself to not doing)):

1. The changes to the initial part of lead were more accurate and supported by the very sources included. -- no reason given for removal
2. The changes to the body included important accuracy tweaks (from the very same sources) and more minor text cleanup. -- no reason given for removal
3. You claim PROMO -- no reason given for this

I still await your response to these and others throughout. I have even provided specific quotes from the very sources.

At this time, with your responses that do not in the slightest address what is written, it appears as though you may be engaging in WP:PROMO through your obstruction of improvements supported directly by the existing sources.

I sincerely hope that this is a big misunderstanding-that you are swamped by notifications/otherwise and are accidentally missing the numerous responses I have given that already answer/address the questions you have asked-and you can go back and review what has already been written both in the history and in this very Talk page and come back with an appropriate response.

Thanks. ILoveFinance (talk) 13:52, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I cant understand what you are proposing here. Please provide a concrete proposal. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:29, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Since reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, please see below specifically regarding the LEAD:

Bitcoin Cash is a cryptocurrency that continues a chain of blocks from the first Bitcoin block in 2009. Notably, a split occurred in the chain between Bitcoin (BTC) and Bitcoin Cash (BCH) on 1 August 2017. Bitcoin Cash is often considered an altcoin. ILoveFinance (talk) 20:36, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Be advised of Talk:Bitcoin_Cash/Archive_6#RfC:_Shall_Bitcoin_Cash_be_characterized_as_a_software_fork_of_bitcoin_in_the_first_sentence_of_the_lead_section?, thus at this time we are calling it a fork and not a split. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 21:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok, revised below. Seems like a simple solution. Bar no other controversy, I will make the edit.

Bitcoin Cash is a cryptocurrency that continues a chain of blocks from the first Bitcoin block in 2009. Notably, a fork occurred in the chain between Bitcoin (BTC) and Bitcoin Cash (BCH) on 1 August 2017. Bitcoin Cash is often considered an altcoin. ILoveFinance (talk) 21:27, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Not OK for many reasons, all well documented in the talk archives. Be advised of WP:BURDEN (which is also found at the top of this talk page) and WP:NOTADVERT. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 10:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Please specify specifically those reasons. Nothing barring the rewrite is documented anywhere in the archives. ILoveFinance (talk) 11:16, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

The MOS:LEAD summarizes. You have to provide sources per BURDEN. Be aware of WP:BLUDGEON. Thanks Jtbobwaysf (talk) 11:54, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I stated clearly. Above. Which you still willfully ignore. -- For your benefit: the existing sources

I quoted the article for you. I am not using any new sources as they are not necessary. ILoveFinance (talk) 12:05, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, for your benefit, let me requote the article for Source 10 which I already have done above:

"In most respects, it is similar to bitcoin. It works the same way, and it has the exact same transaction history as the original bitcoin, up to Aug. 1, 2017. Its primary difference is that it is designed to allow more transactions to pass through, on a per-second basis, than bitcoin, which leads to lower user fees. And, of course, because it is a different market, Bitcoin Cash’s price moves independent of bitcoin itself."

As you can clearly see (unless you choose to ignore it again), I am using what is in the article already cited in the first/second sentence of the lead.

Please, again, state specifically why this is not "OK." Thanks :) ILoveFinance (talk) 13:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

You have reopened your lead change suggestions in the section below, so I have responded there. The fact that one source says it has the same transaction history (a copy of the database) until a certain date doesnt mean it is the same thing, it is not and adding this to the lead is undue. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:06, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Continuing from/responding to the below:

Not re-opening when never closed, for clarity.

I dislike your association of me pushing a narrative.

I'm perfectly fine not including BTC/BCH, I only considered it to be additional information. In retrospect, I agree with you here, it could be misconstrued and is unnecessary information.

"To [your] understanding" is not enough. Status quo of article is another thing, better than your "understanding," but also as you've said previously (I will need to dig this up), this article could be in better shape.

One source is claim. Ok, well let me provide another that I would include. This meets the higher WP:RS standard: https://www.cnbctv18.com/cryptocurrency/a-list-of-bitcoin-forks-and-how-they-have-changed-the-network-13318902.htm -- Please notate this quote: "The fork was split from the main blockchain in August of 2017."

I can dig up additional, but in the meantime, how about we rework the phrasing a bit more. I have a revised version of the proposal at the bottom of this comment. In the meantime, let me continue responding to your points.

This article in numerous places is a barely re-written section of sourced articles. I state this because many areas require rework. Grayfell noted this himself.

Now time for the revised suggestion:

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Bitcoin Cash is a cryptocurrency that shares a chain of blocks from the first Bitcoin block in 2009. Notably, a fork occurred in the chain due to disagreement regarding scaling solutions resulting in Bitcoin Cash's creation on 1 August 2017. Bitcoin Cash is often considered an altcoin. [10][11][CNBC source to be added here] Bitcoin Cash is sometimes referred to as "BCash." [32]

In November 2018, Bitcoin Cash experienced a contested hard fork where the project split into two cryptocurrencies: Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin SV ("BSV"). [12]

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Let me know your thoughts about this revision.

Thanks! (not sarcastic at all, just happy we are having a productive conversation now!) ILoveFinance (talk) 22:59, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

WP: NOPIPE regarding your desire in the lead renaming changing blockchain to piped nonsense 'share a chain of blocks,' 'chain of blocks to share something', etc xyz. This is all WP:PROMO attempting to reference some sort of false historical value. Bitcoin Cash is a blockchain, and it might have shared a history prior to the creation of this article subject (and by very nature prior to the creation of the scope of this article), so it doesnt matter (certainly not in a manner that is sufficient weight for the lead). We have the fork article to discuss what a hard for is. No again to the fork in the chain blah blah. You are trying to insert a POV in the lead in a manner that is not supported by the article nor the preponderance of the sources. I have already quoted the RFC that went over this in the past, here it is again Talk:Bitcoin_Cash/Archive_6#RfC:_Shall_Bitcoin_Cash_be_characterized_as_a_software_fork_of_bitcoin_in_the_first_sentence_of_the_lead_section?. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 00:59, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

If you read what I write above, you'll see clearly that I state "a fork occurred...resulting in Bitcoin Cash's creation." -- your argument above is that Bitcoin Cash is not a fork but then quote the RFC that says it was a fork.... can you please clarify?

I'm simply trying to have a discussion but you often appear to either ignore or make some narrative claim -- rather than trying to engage in or encourage productive dialogue. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:11, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

The consensus is to use the word fork, not to modify it by using piped in text in your first proposal. It is also not to use piped in text to call a blockchain a chain of blocks that did xyz. The RFC stated that bitcoin cash is a fork of bitcoin, it is certainly not a continuation of bitcoin blocks or some other similar nonsense. The bitcoin cash PR position is that it is the true bitcoin and it continues where bitcoin left off when the fork occurred. This WP:FRINGE theory is not supported on this article. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 11:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The revised lead proposal uses the word fork.

You are extrapolating some claim that was never made. Where does the revised lead state anything of the sort?

A blockchain is quite literally a chain of blocks... Blockchain ILoveFinance (talk) 23:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

It doesnt "share a chain of blocks." This appears to be a promotional, is untrue, and apparently lacks RS. None of this nuance is due in the lead, assuming it is even true (doesnt sounds true to me, it seems the part of the blocks that were copied ended in 2017 and we are now 7+ years later, a very very long time in the blockchain world). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 02:07, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

A blockchain is figuratively a chain of blocks. There is no physical chain, and no physical blocks. Both in the wider world and on Wikipedia specifically, cryptocurrency already suffers from a severe jargon problem.

Regarding the revised suggestion: neither "notably" nor "often considered" are improvements, per MOS:NOTABLY and MOS:WEASEL. "Solutions" is biz-speak per WP:SOLUTIONS, and "scaling solutions" is vague and more confusing than helpful. It's unlikely that this level of detail belongs in the very first paragraph, but if it does, there would have to be a better way of explaining it. Grayfell (talk) 03:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I'd argue "literally." Words have multiple definitions. I have a programming background -- chains are a real term, and are similar to linked lists and otherwise, and are how I would consider it a literal chain, just like I would consider a linked list a list created by literally linked items.

Fair enough on "notably."

As for "often considered," what would be acceptable? Just saying it is "considered" wouldn't be clear as not everyone refers to Bitcoin Cash that way, but many do. Not sure what the right way to incorporate that thought would be, unless you would argue that it should just be "considered an altcoin"?

I'll think of a new revision and propose. ILoveFinance (talk) 17:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

References

bitcoin cash bias concerns

I have read through all archives and can see that there has certainly been a lot of contention surrounding the bitcoin cash lead and content... I apologize for trying to "flog a dead horse" here, but I would just like to suggest some improvements for the bitcoin cash lead and article content as a whole, and propose a possible re-visit to the topic to amend it to seem a little less biased and more informative. I have come to learn from the archives that there are two separate schools of thought between the original bitcoin and bitcoin cash, with there being much debate surrounding the duality between the two. I noticed a large amount of bias towards bitcoin cash, particularly in archive two, however I think in an attempt to prevent such biases, this article has gone the other way and appears slightly biased in the opposite direction. Below is the lead from bitcoin gold, it reads:

Bitcoin Gold (BTG) is a cryptocurrency. It is a hard fork of Bitcoin, the open source cryptocurrency. It is an open source, decentralized digital currency without a central bank or intermediary that can be sent from user to user on the peer-to-peer Bitcoin Gold network. The stated purpose of the hard fork is to change the proof of work algorithm so that ASICs (Application-Specific Integrated Circuits) which are used to mine Bitcoin cannot be used to mine the Bitcoin Gold blockchain in the hopes that enabling mining on commonly available graphics cards will democratize and decentralize the mining and distribution of the cryptocurrency. The project began as a community-driven effort with six co-founders, half of whom continue to serve on the project's Board (including Lead Developer, Hang Yin.)

Comparing this (which only has one source) to the bitcoin cash lead, which has several, it seems much more neutral, as well as more detailed and descriptive... nowhere is it mentioned that bitcoin gold is a spin off or alt-coin - with that being said I do not care either way if bitcoin cash is labeled as a spin off or as an alt-coin, but I think the inclusion of "spin-off" may be a bit unnecessary as the point is easily made that it is not the original bitcoin by the term "alt-coin" in the preceding text; either one will do but I think having both is excessive, its like saying “fire is scorching and hot.” I also think the article could benefit from a more substantive and descriptive lead.

Further, the only source for the bitcoin gold lead is... from the bitcoin gold website...? So there seems to be significant inconsistency in how the sourcing requirements are applied in crypto atricles. With this, I do not propose that bitcoin cash should be framed as being "the original bitcoin" or I do really care whether or not we should remove entirely the mention of "bcash, btrash" - but I do not really see how these opinions are necessary to the article as a whole, whether it be the opinion of supporters or detractors, as these are simply opinions and have no real bearing on the real facts

My proposals to improve this article are:

- Amend the lead to be more descriptive and more neutral

- I do not see why we mention bitcoin cash is sometimes referred to as Bcash, then in the very next sentence have it that detractors refer to it as Bcash... it reads a little excessive and repetitive, and feels poorly written. The nature of this alt-name judging from the archives is that the term Bcash is used as an insult, so the article should reflect this, rather than potentially confusing readers in that... is it sometimes referred to as Bcash by supporters as well? Otherwise why is it mentioned in two different contexts?

- The article states that "...large block supporters find it acceptable that (due to large block sizes), nodes might only be run by universities, private companies and non-profits." While the original article states that "...some bcash supporters are fine with a smaller group of well-funded hosts taking on the majority of nodes." - this may not amount to piped text, but it is slightly inconsistent with the material. I think this line should be amended to better reflect the source, something along the lines of "...some bitcoin cash supports have no issue with smaller, well-funded parties hosting the majority of nodes" to better reflect the content of the source - to say that "nodes might only be run by universities, private companies, and non-profits" is not only false, but is also taken out of context from what the source itself states in its text

- I think it is important to mention that BSV was the result of a hardfork from bitcoin cash, but I don't think we should basically have a BSV stub within the bitcoin cash article. Considering the Bitcoin Gold article stands on its own away from the Bitcoin article, I think it is reasonable to establish an independent BSV page. I have found all of these sources which provide an even stronger standing for the creation of a BSV page than the BTG sources which are sufficient for the standing of the Bitcoin Gold article.

https://www.ft.com/content/900d738d-c75f-32bd-b208-1c942fdb9de9

https://www.ft.com/content/79796bb5-ddb3-350f-9978-990b8e768a34

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-14/bitcoin-offshoot-doubles-after-supposed-creator-wins-legal-delay

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-10/bitcoin-offshoots-surge-after-would-be-satoshi-nakamoto-filing

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-04/crypto-coin-bitcoin-sv-appears-to-have-suffered-a-51-attack

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/bitcoin-inventor-craig-wright-defamation-cryptocurrency-vitalik-buterin-a8970436.html

https://edition.cnn.com/business/newsfeeds/prnewswire/202008061659PR_NEWS_USPR_____VA85664.html

https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/15/coinbase-users-can-now-withdraw-bitcoin-sv-following-bch-fork/

https://www.cnbctv18.com/cryptocurrency/bitcoin-vs-bitcoin-sv-crypto-cryptocurrency-differences-explained-15656191.htm

https://fortune.com/crypto/2024/03/15/craig-wright-fake-satoshi-nakamoto-exposed/

https://www.engadget.com/2018-12-20-cryptocurrency-year-in-review-loser.html Artem P75 (talk) 23:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Not contested -> proposal 3 implemented. Will work on others and seek comments again before submission Artem P75 (talk) 22:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

A work in progress for the creation of the BSV page can be found in my sandbox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Artem_P75/sandbox

It is far from finished and needs a restructure of the content / additional content, but any feedback is welcome. Please feel free to edit the page and add information - I would like this to be a collaborative effort to get a BSV page standing on its own Artem P75 (talk) 00:59, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

• Hi, i reverted this change here in which you summarized an interview into wikivoice. We dont do this. If you wanted to add the interview or quote, they refer to some person named Rizun, we would need to determine if the viewpoint of Rizun should be given due weight. Here is the source you used ibtimes. The other changes you propose are unclear, please provide change A to B format. Regarding your comparison to bitcoin gold, that is WP:OSE. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:06, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Note that International Business Times is not a reliable source and generally should not be cited. See WP:IBTIMES. Grayfell (talk) 18:47, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@Jtbobwaysf I don't understand your revert. The current line is inaccurate. It currently states: "while some large block supporters find it acceptable that (due to large block sizes), nodes might only be run by universities, private companies and nonprofits."

This is not an accurate representation of the article. Article has the above line specified from specifically Peter Rizun. The line referencing Bitcoin Cash supporters is the following: "But some bcash supporters are fine with a smaller group of well-funded hosts taking on the majority of nodes." ILoveFinance (talk) 22:31, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Again, the cited source is not reliable. Because of that I've removed that source and the accompanying section. To restate what I've said before on this talk page, what is and is not "a key difference of opinion" on this topic should be decided by reliable sources. Grayfell (talk) 23:00, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok with removal since considered reliable. For clarity, I commented on Jt's reversion being improper, not the need to keep this line. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:05, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I was not aware of WP:OSE, I will keep topics separate to bitcoin cash out of this talk page. I do not mind that the IBtimes reference has been removed if not in line with the crypto sourcing policy - my intention in respect to that was to amend the text of the article to be more inline with the source, however with the source being removed, it is now an irrelevant point. My other proposals are:

Proposal A

Create a separate page for BSV using the sources I provided above, as well as others. We could then have a BSV page of its own and remove the BSV stub from this article, effectively tidying this one up and resulting in a cleaner bitcoin cash article. A work in progress can be found at my sandbox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Artem_P75/sandbox

It has currently been reviewed, and I would like if others could review and add points with references which can be used to create a final page to be submitted as a draft - as it currently stands it is certainly nowhere close to being sufficient for submission

Proposal B

Is to do with the opinions of detractors and supporters, and the bcash, btrash, a scam / viewed as the pure form of bitcoin. I noticed through the archives that this was contentious as some editors wanted to include celebrity endorsements. I do not really think this is information befitting an encyclopedia, and feels more like community bickering. I see how the opinion of the detractors is balanced by the opinion of supporters, but I do not think the reader should be influenced either way by the opinions of others - it may be factual that detractors refer to it as XYZ and that supporters view it as XYZ, but it is not factual that it is a scam, and it is not factual that it is the pure form of bitcoin - these are just varying perspectives, that, to an uninformed reader, can create confusion, and appears to me to reinforce that there are "teams" in this... debate? That it is then for the reader to decide where they sit on the issue. The article should just portray the facts of what the cryptocurrency is without opinions on what it is being inserted.

I do have some thoughts on the lead and some other content as well, although I noticed this was a topic of very heavy contention so for the moment I will focus on other areas and come back to this once I feel as though I can propose a clear and adequate alternative to the current lead and the remaining article content,

Thank you Artem P75 (talk) 06:40, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

First as a matter of housekeeping, I would suggest to create new sections (or sub-sections) to discuss these in the future. It starts to get unwieldy when new topics are added to an existing section. You can create a new talk page section with == before and after the name or a sub-section by using ===

Next, about the BSV (your proposal A) article I did look at your sandbox and it looks like a good start. I would suggest to try to find more sources and more content to build out the article. This subject has been covered to some degree in the press, but maybe or maybe not sufficiently for a stand alone wikipedia article. You might also try to look in google books for some more content. Think about improving the WP:DEPTH of the article. A crypto article might be looked at similarly to WP:NCORP, just my guess, but might help you to achieve this end.

Next, your proposal B, what are you seeking to do here? Are you seeking to remove the Bcash content? It is very well sourced, I dont think this is going to be removed. You have to remember that at wikipedia we cover the past, or history. This subject of this bitcoin cash exists (to my understanding) as a result of a disagreement in how to solve the Bitcoin scalability problem so for us to pretend there was no disagreement (or teams as you refer to) then we would not be covering the history of the event. It would be like covering US politics and pretending there was no Blue and Red teams or UK politics and there was no parties, etc. At wikipedia we will just cover what the sources tell us to cover, no more or less.

Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:04, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions, I will keep this in mind moving forward. I will continue to work on gathering sources for a BSV article and take your suggestions onboard. I see your point in relation to the history with the comparison to politics - in this case then I have some thought on making the "Controversy" section more comprehensive - as it stands now it seems to just be occupied by different opinions and perspectives, with the exception of just the first two sentences...

However, sourcing under the stricter crypto requirements seems to be difficult, so I will continue trying to find reliable sources before making any further proposals.

Thank you Artem P75 (talk) 23:25, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Generally controversy and/or criticism sections on articles are discouraged, see WP:NOCRIT, there might be a similar page about controversy. Generally speaking it should be integrated throughout the article, rather than creating a section for it. I think we can infer the same for controversy (if there really is even one?). In the case of this article the entire subject is one of controversy, as the history relates to the dispute called the block size wars that spawned this coin. So I don't think it would be very useful to try to create a section to imply anything is especially controversial, as it isn't. Even the bcash name is no longer controversial. You are correct this article is sparse, but it wont be improved by removing reactions of the pundits when the fork occurred. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:22, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:RS Clarification for this/other Bitcoin Articles - Books written specifically about Bitcoin

I have not seen them sighted, but have also not seen information specifically regarding them, so want to create the trail here for clarification.

Are books written specifically about Bitcoin/events relating to it considered WP:RS? For instance, The Bitcoin Standard, Hijacking Bitcoin, and The Blocksize Wars? ILoveFinance (talk) 15:16, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

It depends, is always the answer. "Hijacking Bitcoin" by Roger Ver would not be an RS on this article for something in wikivoice, due the obvious WP:COI. Maybe one statement by Roger could be useful (attributed to him), but you will have to see if other editors agree with what you propose. Also note that there would be a limit to how much content we would add from any single source to avoid weight issues. For books we generally want to see that they are done with a real known publisher, we wont accept self published works or amazon ebooks. Probably also someone known in the industry. If the author has a wikipedia page, you know there is a higher chance we will include it (unless the wikipedia page shows they are crypto bro, like Roger or CZ, then it wouldnt be kosher). Anyhow, that is my opinion and feel free to propose what you want see what others say. But I think someone like Nathaniel Popper of NYT and other similar quality works would be welcome. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense overall. I've read all three, and they all have content that could make sense to include in one area or another. Hijacking Bitcoin, as this would no doubt be the most controversial of the three due to COI, while no doubt it is written by Ver and Patterson, is more grounded in fact than narrative (not to say no narrative exists). There are about 20 pages of sources at the end, all footnoted throughout the text.

I don't know what would make sense at this time, but I figure if any of the books contain something relevant to a section/otherwise, as long as it is something that itself is cited in the book, should be less contentious. Agree or disagree here? If too broad as is, if something comes to mind, I'll post here.

If you mean content itself should not be included, other than a statement attributed directly to Ver, then understood on that front as well. ILoveFinance (talk) 13:09, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I would need to see the proposed text first to comment, again it depends. Regarding Ver's book, remember that Ver and Jihan Wu are essentially considered to be the creators of Bitcoin Cash, thus using this source is largely going to be WP:PRIMARY and WP:COI as it relates to this article, the scaling debate, Bitcoin, or related articles. Look for books that have a reputable neutral author such as Nathaniel Popper. Lump on top Ver's current legal situation might not lend towards Ver's credibility in the eyes of wikipedia editors. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:53, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Sure thing.

Just as an FYI, Ver and Wu did not create Bitcoin Cash. Ver did not "join" Bitcoin Cash until after SegWit2x failed. He did provide funding to start a number of other projects, though, such as bitpay, blockchain.com, kraken, Dash (cryptocurrentcy), etc. -- Could you share the WP:RS sources supporting your claim? Otherwise, that is introducing a false narrative that is detrimental to this and other articles. Let's remain clear -- if COI because he was an avid supporter of Bitcoin Cash, that's one thing. If COI because he "created" (false), then that's another. Same for PRIMARY.

Why are we referencing Wu again? I'm not bringing him up. It is commonly known Wu was a very early supporter of increased block sizes, though for most recent prior to split ref New York Agreement. He also did not create Bitcoin Cash so the same thoughts from above apply. ILoveFinance (talk) 15:29, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

New lead

Hello everyone. With the removal of bitcoin sv from this article I would like to propose a new lead:

Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017, on block number 478559.[1] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12] Until block number 478558, the Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash blockchains are identical.[12]

Bitcoin Cash is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

I think this lead is more comprehensive than the current lead and provides some good factual information for the reader. I don't think it is necessary to have bsv in the lead as this does not seem to be the standard for other crytpo articles (btg, btc) apologies for WP:OSE I am just trying to encourage some sort of uniformity between these articles as they seem to be very contentious and I think having some additional standards may help - it also seems no longer relevant to this article.

As it stands, the current lead is a single line of text, followed by the mention of bsv which is no longer relevant to the article as a whole, I think my proposal provides a better early insight into bch and its history before the reader proceeds through to the rest of the articles,

Please let me know your thoughts Artem P75 (talk) 23:51, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

The changes you are proposing are more than just removing the BSV mention from the lead. I am opposed to your proposed comprehensive changes. For example we do not need to cover block numbers in the lead, please read WP:LEAD, this explains that the lead summarizes. So if you want to include something in the lead, you would need to first include it in the article. I also am opposed to any content that suggests that Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin are identical, similar, etc in the lead. First lets see if other editors are ok to remove Bitcoin Cash from the lead, as for me I think it should stay as it helps the reader to follow over the BSV article so they can read about that. Bitcoin Cash only had two notable events in its history (to my knowledge) and that was the blocksize debate that resulted in the fork and the debate again regarding blocksize that caused the CSW fork off to BSV. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:11, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Why are you opposed to removing BSV? There is no stub anymore, and thereby, with no separate section, it does not belong in the Lead of the wikipedia page. BSV has no further relation to BCH. It is still mentioned in the History section where it would belong.

The block numbers I think are a good idea as it provides helpful context regarding the exact time the chains become different. Though I don't necessarily disagree - maybe too much detail in the Lead.

Where does this suggest that Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash are are the same? The blockchains are identical up until block 478558. That is a factual statement.

Overall, this change to Lead seems to be comprehensive and provide more detail than currently exists. Not to say it couldn't be expanded further. However, writing up something similar to the Bitcoin article I feel would have bigger disagreements.

New Lead proposal, considering the above:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12] Until the split, the Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash blockchains are identical.[12]

Bitcoin Cash is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ILoveFinance (talk) 13:32, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Just as an additional FYI -- ArsTech uses that verbiage "...are identical." ILoveFinance (talk) 13:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Jtbobwaysf, what if we beefed up the Lead significantly? Borrowing from the Bitcoin page, something like:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12]

Like Bitcoin, nodes in the peer-to-peer Bitcoin Cash network verify transactions through cryptography and record them in a public distributed ledger, called a blockchain, without central oversight. Consensus between nodes is achieved using a computationally intensive process based on proof of work, called mining, that guarantees the security of the Bitcoin Cash blockchain.

Bitcoin Cash is viewed more as a medium of exchange or unit of account and less as a store of value. [23]

Bitcoin Cash is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I still see no reason to mention BSV here as BSV is mentioned in the History section.

Please let me know if I'm good to edit the Lead. I don't think there should be any issue with this suggestion. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

We do not need to beef up the lead per MOS:LEAD. Its a small article and it will be undue to cover a lot of content in the lead and also incorrect to put in new concepts in the. We dont need a comparison to bitcoin in the lead, that would be against our general principals on other articles. The lead only summarizes the article content, thats all it does. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:54, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Could you please elaborate as to why this proposed lead is unacceptable, if it is? ILoveFinance (talk) 04:29, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Comparison removed in the below version. Please confirm if good to insert.

----------------------------------------------------------

Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a decentralized cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12]

Nodes in the peer-to-peer Bitcoin Cash network verify transactions through cryptography and record them in a public distributed ledger, called a blockchain, without central oversight. Consensus between nodes is achieved using a computationally intensive process based on proof of work, called mining, that guarantees the security of the Bitcoin Cash blockchain.

Bitcoin Cash is viewed more as a medium of exchange or unit of account and less as a store of value. [23]

Bitcoin Cash is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

---------------------------------------------------------- ILoveFinance (talk) 04:40, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

New revision below, excluding the additional content that I assume you also take issue with. I will propose a new topic regarding that to improve the article with additional information.

----------------------------------------------------------

Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a decentralized cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12]

Bitcoin Cash is viewed more as a medium of exchange or unit of account and less as a store of value. [23]

The cryptocurrency is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

----------------------------------------------------------

ILoveFinance (talk) 05:01, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Number of issues here. First I dont personally think bitcoin cash is decentralized. Do we have an abundance of RS that state it is? My WP:OR is that it is highly centralized with only a few miners doing all the work. I doubt bitcoin cash is well known for being decentralized sufficient that we will summarize that in the lead. Second, again you are asking to remove the wikilink to the Fork_(software_development) of bitcoin, why do you continue to push on this subject? At this point starting to be WP:ICANTHEARYOU on this point. There is an RFC on that subject (I have already advised that), so that answer here to WP:LOCALCONSENSUS on that one will be no, regardless of what I say. Why do you keep asking about this? Third you are putting altcoin in quotes (as if it is some sort of jargon) and removing the wikilink, again not constructive. Bitcoin cash IS an altcoin, so that should be very near to the beginning of the lead, in the first or second sentence. And last you are removing the mention of BSV from the lead, I already answered that question on this talk to to the other editor here. Last, however, your proposed sentence about adding the reason for the fork seems a useful summary of the article, however I think it could be improved by linking to the Bitcoin scalability problem instead of all the text. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

My WP:OR shows that it is decentralized. But as neither of us, at this time, has WP:RS to support our claims, let's remove the word "decentralized." I would be curious to see your OR showing otherwise, though, for curiosity's sake.

Please stop making broad stroke assessments. The missing link to Fork was an oversight. This is just a draft. Rather than accusing, just point it out. I am not pushing anything, so please stop making these accusations.

"Save the best for last." Having it at the end, and in its own paragraph, is more prominent.

As for BSV, it was important before because it had it's own section. You removed the stub. It no longer requires a mention in the Lead. Why do you insist that it does? BSV is properly called out in the History section.

Revision:

----------------------------------------------------------

Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12]

Bitcoin Cash is viewed more as a medium of exchange or unit of account and less as a store of value. [23]

The cryptocurrency is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

----------------------------------------------------------

ILoveFinance (talk) 06:22, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I believe that this strongly fits with what the Lead should be.

From WP:LEAD: "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies."

@Grayfell Would love to get your feedback on this as well. ILoveFinance (talk) 06:26, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I have previously shown you this: Talk:Bitcoin_Cash/Archive_6#RfC:_Shall_Bitcoin_Cash_be_characterized_as_a_software_fork_of_bitcoin_in_the_first_sentence_of_the_lead_section? Next, there is no reason to remove the wikilink to altcoin and place altcoin in quotes, pretending altcoin is some sort of jargon. How the coin is viewed/used (medium of exchange, etc) is POV content and sourced from 3-4 years ago. This coin might not be used at all outside of the trading that goes on at coinbase and maybe nobody even cares today. Its not the type of thing we promote to the LEAD. I note that you and the other editor on this talk page both sought to remove most of the BSV content from this article and it has now been moved to its own standalone article. I am not sure if the article will survive WP:AFD if it is omitted, but I hope it does. That said, in my view this Bitcoin Cash coin derives is notability from two events, the blocksize wars and then later the Bitcoin Cash war that spawned BSV). Your edits seem to downplay the relationship with BSV and also seek to promote some other ideas to the LEAD (that altcoin is a jargon, that the bitcoin cash coin is somehow used as medium of exchange, etc). I dont think most of these edits you are promoting are covered by RS and appear to be borderline promotional in nature. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:39, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

1. Yes, it is still abundantly clear that Bitcoin Cash forked from Bitcoin. What is not clear there?
2. Mate, ok, again, that is an easy add. Just an oversight of a draft, nothing more to it.
3. Because that is something that is described later in the article, and supported by WP:RS. It is actually one of the major ideas set forth in the article. We cannot just assume that it might be different now that it is years later. Otherwise, none of this article should exist.
4. It is simply your opinion that BSV is a notable event to BCH. It means very little in the grand scheme of things. It does not belong in the lead when there is nothing but a one line mention of it later in the article (where it belongs).
5. Each and every edit is supported by WP:RS, the exact sources currently used. You seem to be at some kind of mental roadblock or working some sort of mental gymnastics here in disagreeing with this.

I would like to get the opinion of another editor, such as @Grayfell, on this topic, as, respectfully, none of your points seem to pass muster. @Artem P75 curious as to your thoughts as well.

For clarity, here is an updated draft addressing the link comment:

----------------------------------------------------------

Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12]

Bitcoin Cash is viewed more as a medium of exchange or unit of account and less as a store of value. [23]

The cryptocurrency is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

----------------------------------------------------------

ILoveFinance (talk) 13:13, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Also for reference, your previous comments relating to BSV in the Lead:

"When there is an article that discusses two topics, in this case two forks of bitcoin called BCH and BSV, it is not ok to remove mention of one of those with a misleading edit summary, in what is effectively Wikipedia:Blanking (as the lead is so small)." ---- Comment: This article no longer goes into detail about BSV.

"The BSV content belongs on this article as it has nowhere else to go and thus it will continue to be summarized in the LEAD, as that is what the lead does, it summarizes." ---- Comment: The aforementioned "BSV content" no longer is in this article and thereby does not need to continue to be summarized in the LEAD, as there is nothing to summarize. ILoveFinance (talk) 13:42, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

An updated revision for the proposed lead @Jtbobwaysf @Grayfell @Artem P75:

----------------------------------------------------------

Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12]

The cryptocurrency is considered an "altcoin." [10][11]

----------------------------------------------------------

While I think mention of a focus on Medium of Exchange is an important point that summarizes mentions in the article, this revision should have no contestation. ILoveFinance (talk) 20:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I still continue to object for the same reasons above. forked vs fork of, BSV, altcoin in quote. You are essentially re-hashing the same points and not responding. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:25, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

1. Same meaning, and linked. Irrelevant.
2. BSV is irrelevant per your own comments. See above.
3. Ok, let's remove the quotes. Was unclear that this was the issue. No qualms here.

I laid out 5 points in response to yours in a prior comment, and also quoted your own references (in regards to BSV). Please do not accuse me of something you yourself are failing to do.

NEW REVISION:

----------------------------------------------------------

Bitcoin Cash (abbreviation: BCH) is a cryptocurrency that forked from the Bitcoin blockchain on 1 August 2017.[3] The fork occurred due to various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization. [10][11][12]

The cryptocurrency is considered an altcoin. [10][11]

----------------------------------------------------------

ILoveFinance (talk) 21:18, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

One ping is plenty, I don't need three separate notifications for this discussion.

Strictly looking at the most recent proposal on its own merits, "...various disagreements around issues such as scaling, block size limit, and decentralization" is both too vague and somewhat loaded in its framing. Even if this were proportionate and defining, it would still be inappropriate to introduce jargon like this in the first paragraph. Likewise "is considered" is a textbook example of MOS:WEASEL

As for BSV, just as an article on a work of fiction will typically mention that work's sequel in the lead (if that sequel is notable and can be sourced) so should this other fork be mentioned in the lead of this article. This isn't included as a value judgement on the other project. It doesn't matter whether or not the sequel is good or popular, its existence is useful context for understanding the topic as a topic. With that said, I do not think that BitcoinABC belongs in the article at all unless reliable sources can be found for it. As always, we need a specific reason based on reliable sources to mention any non-notable projects. Grayfell (talk) 21:22, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for the multiple tags.

Can you further elaborate on why this is jargon and too vague? That is summarizing what is discussed later in the article. If it needs to specify the positioning of Bitcoin Cash on those issues, can you confirm?

I don’t agree that “is considered” is WEASLE. It is considered an altcoin. But if that’s of issue, we can just say “is an altcoin.”

I still don’t understand the BSV mention. It’s mentioned in the History section. Frankly, if XEC isn’t to be mentioned, why not remove BSV entirely? On this — granted this is OSE — but these seem like reasons that the Bitcoin article would also need to reference Bitcoin Cash in its own Lead. Reason for mentioning, is because I want to understand the logic for not including a “major event” on one but including in another. ILoveFinance (talk) 21:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the late response, I have been away the last few day. I really would like to see a stronger lead for this article, I think it could be much more descriptive than it is. At the moment it is just two sentences, with only the first (very poorly) describing what it is. Yes, I know I should not be comparing to other articles so I apologize, but it is the only way I feel as though I can make my point - When looking at Ethereum for example, the lead is very informative and very well written. This particular article just seems to be very neglected in terms of overall content, the lead is where I would like to start with in trying to make this article better and more comprehensive. Controversial issues aside, whether its "altcoin" or "considered an altcoin" or whatever other matters of semantics are debated, or whatever the Bitcoin or bitcoin cash debate is; I think if we step back and look at the article from an impartial lense, as if none of the controversy ever existed, I would think it would make sense to have a more comprehensive and informative lead for this article.

As for BSV, from my research creating the BSV article, I really think the only reason it is still at all notable is because of the ongoing drama surrounding Craig Wright and the recent court ruling - if it were not for that it would probably be as dead as Bitcoin Gold. Its only real notoriety comes from the "civil war" I believe it is referred to? Other than that it has nothing - so I do agree with @ILoveFinance that it does not have a place in the lead of this article. I do however think it should remain in the history section of this article as it does seem to be quite a significant event but it makes up one single sentence of this entire article, just as XEC does, so really if we are putting personal biases or favorable cryptocurrencies aside, it really deserves no place in the lead.

And I would really hope that for the sake of the article we can come to some sort of an agreement to have a more informative lead - this article seems to be suffering quite a bit because of the controversies surrounding it. I read somewhere that it is also wikipedia policy to not interpret every single rule literally

I think if we can all come together to start working constructively, as a community, for the sake of this article, starting with the lead, we can get this article to a better standard than the state that it is currently in. Artem P75 (talk) 23:32, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

This is starting to sound like an effort to whitewash the BSV out of this article. I am not sure what is bad about BSV, as it is just history, but maybe the BCH community doesn't want to be associated with the BSV community. Both of these coins are large block variants of Bitcoin, and thus are somehow related, especially historically with the forks. This type of whitewashing is just not suitable for wikipedia. I did try to help you both to create a separate BSV article, as I think it is encyclopedic for them to be separate. Happy to participate in that and thankful to you Artem who did most of the work to create the new article. However, I am not supportive to remove the wikilink from the LEAD of this article, as I dont think it is useful nor encyclopedic. As Grayfell stated, as a child article, it should be linked from the LEAD of this article, especially when this BCH article itself has so little content is barely notable itself (BCH is only notable for two events, the first fork from Bitcoin and later the fork off to BSV). The two articles linking to each other, of course in the lead until each can grow into their own quality articles (if that ever occurs) is the standard process. We do not need to work together to whitewash the content to each article from those on the separate camps, just because they might like not each other. Yes, these articles do 'go dead' as I think you put it (or to put another way get stale) over time, such as Bitcoin Gold, that is something that happens. But over years or decades we go update slow articles and eventually people add things, its just how our process goes. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:12, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Just as a note, stumbled upon this RS stating that the Bitcoin Cash community is decentralized https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/12/17229796/bitcoin-cash-conflict-transactions-fight ILoveFinance (talk) 13:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Once source is not enough for that claim in the LEAD, nor even for it in WP:wikivoice in the body. Bitcoin Cash is not well known as decentralized. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:13, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Of course, not suggesting as much. Just documenting. ILoveFinance (talk) 18:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Gavin Andresen Mention

@Jtbobwaysf -- Removing the background of Gavin Andresen seems unnecessary. Having a clause giving a brief background would be important, especially for someone as notable as Gavin. ILoveFinance (talk) 13:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Gavin is no longer a bitcoin developer per the source you added. If you want more detail, be sure to be clear about that. He was also booted for the CSW issue, you might want to add that if you feel important to add more content. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, my mistake, I did not realize I did not include the word "former." That should absolutely be included. I will just add the word "lead" to the current text, as that is accurate. (Satoshi handed off control of the project to Gavin, and subsequently, Gavin relinquished primary control to Wladimir in 2014.) ILoveFinance (talk) 21:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Appreciate the catch/cleanup. ILoveFinance (talk) 21:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Why did you cut part of the explanation for the tweet? That content is accurate per the article.

Your comment of "cleanup" is not helpful in understanding the edit. ILoveFinance (talk) 04:32, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Cleanup I use when I am fixing some text without changing the overall meaning. Yes, it is notable that Satoshi handed control to Gavin and then Gavin lost interest and moved on, and then supported a new project in his comments. Just need to find sources to include it. I had never heard this story, I thought he left more to do with the CSW issue, maybe he left just as much about his BCH support, no idea what came first. But worthwhile to include if we can find the sources, certainly is historical and encyclopedic and exactly the type of information these articles need. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 10:40, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, gotcha, thx for the clarification!

I'll see if I can dig up some additional RS on that. ILoveFinance (talk) 11:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

For brief clarity (just need to find the RS), he handed primary control to Wladimir in 2014 to focus on bigger picture items and to broaden from just Bitcoin again. However he was still active in proposals. In early 2015, he actively pushed for a block size increase (he was always supportive of this, however, in 2015 is when fees began to rise and blockspace was beginning to fill), and went to the community to gather support (particularly from Bitcoin businesses). Later that year he introduced BIP101. When Core disagreed, Gavin and Mike Hearn released BitcoinXT, a fork of the bitcoin project implementing BIP 101. BIP 101 had an adjustable blocksize cap. However, in an effort to reach a middle ground of sorts, in January (I believe) 2016, BIP 101 was removed and repalced with a 2MB blocksize cap. These failed to gain major support (or rather, support died down, particularly in conjunction with the New York Agreement (SegWit2x) as this would implement the 2MB blocksize. Following the Bitcoin Cash fork, BitcoinXT had three subsequent releases: G, H, and I, supporting the initial Bitcoin Cash client, then the November 2017 and May 2018 upgrades. After that, Bitcoin XT received no subsequent updates.

In 2016, Gavin claimed that he believed CSW was Satoshi, after a private demonstration. If I recall correctly, shortly afterwards he admitted that he may have been too trusting/been duped, and it was a few months afterwards that he (mostly?) retracted his claim. This was around the time that Wladimir revoked Gavin's access--this was largely tied to an older Gavin comment saying something along the lines of "Satoshi can have write access whenever he wants."

I'll see what RS I can find that talk more about his history and share them.

On a tangential note, however, I think a writeup of the longer-term scaling debate would be a worthwhile inclusion at the beginning of the History section. What is supported by RS, of course. Could have a Pre-Fork header in the History section. What are your thoughts here? I can propose a new topic to discuss this. ILoveFinance (talk) 12:38, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

An addendum to the history of Gavin's contributions, he actually continued work on Bitcoin Cash (just without his own node implementation) into its later years, after CSW went off on his tangent. He co-authored a paper on Graphene for Bitcoin Cash in 2019: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3341302.3342082 ILoveFinance (talk) 12:41, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for all the comments, just an additional thought -- could such a source be used to support a line (I wouldn't add it yet) such as "Gavin continued work on Bitcoin Cash through 2019."? While additional detail such as what Graphene would be nice somewhere, the source likely could not be used to state that as it is PRIMARY. ILoveFinance (talk) 12:45, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Source supporting Gavin given control by Satoshi: https://www.ft.com/content/9b27fb72-967f-11e4-922f-00144feabdc0 Also briefly references his efforts as early as 2015 to increase the block size.

I have a few other sources lined up to discuss the history of the scaling debate, including related to Gavin, but I'll await your feedback to the wall of text I've provided above before drafting something. ILoveFinance (talk) 13:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Source showing Gavin wanted to focus on other projects : https://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/inside-the-fight-over-bitcoins-future

"Andresen eventually granted this level of access to four additional developers, for a total of five “core devs.” In April, 2014, Andresen decided to devote more of his time to other projects, and named one of the core devs, Wladimir van der Laan, to succeed him as lead developer. Even today, only van der Laan and Andresen can grant commit access to other developers of Bitcoin Core." ILoveFinance (talk) 15:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

FT and newyorker would be WP:RS, the other stuff would not. It would not really be due to say gaving started working on xyz (where xyz is not bitcoin cash) on this article, but it could be added over at the Gavin Andresen. Note WP:BLP has pretty much the same sourcing rules as cryptocurrency, dont add things that are not RS, and PRIMARY or these sometimes junky academic sites are not RS. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:11, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Just for clarity, Graphene is technology that was built for, and today exists on, Bitcoin Cash. Just like the DAA changes. Please advise. ILoveFinance (talk) 18:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

If you have RS to state it is built on graphene, could add that. But I think most cryptocurrencies are just blockchains and the client is what the technology is related to. We also have this issue over at ethereum, where editors want to add every possible client and it becomes excessive. I am not technical, so maybe I am confused what graphene is. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

So Graphene is a technology not at the protocol level but the node level -- in short, it allows for far more efficient block propagation, particularly in conjunction with CTOR (this is a protocol level technology), as it significantly limits the amount of redundant information that needs to be sent around the network when a block is found.

It is built into the Bitcoin Unlimited node implementation.

The source, while PRIMARY, states that Graphene is built for Bitcoin Cash.

In summary to that, my assumptions are (please correct/guide me here):

1. Likely not to be included in the Bitcoin Cash article, unless there is RS mentioning graphene.
2. This could be an addition to the Gavin Andresen page itself, would need to ensure research from a reliable source. I imagine UMass is reliable: https://people.cs.umass.edu/~gbiss/graphene.pdf

ILoveFinance (talk) 19:02, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Would you be able to propose some neutral language to add this brief detail? ILoveFinance (talk) 19:03, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Change "Website" in Infobox to "Informational Websites"

Currently the website is unsourced with the comment that it does not appear "official."

There does not appear to be an "official" Bitcoin Cash website, as there is no singular development team.

With this said, I propose that we change the "Website" which could be misconstrued as "official" to "Informational Websites," where a couple websites could be included. I would propose including the following sites:

- https://bitcoincash.org

- https://bch.info

- https://discover.cash

ILoveFinance (talk) 15:55, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Please see WP:EL. We will not be including all of these, just pick the one that is the official website. Please also be advised of WP:NOT. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:08, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

The point is that there is no "official" website, because there is no central authority. Hence the suggestion rather than just making an edit. ILoveFinance (talk) 18:16, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the one we have now is more or less the official one. This in an infobox, so its generally not desirable to make these one-off changes. I think bitcoin and most of the other cryptos have this similar issue with official website term in the infobox. You could raise the issue on the template page and try to change it for all cryptos if you desire. I havent seen to much complaints about it though, generally finding some other wording will also be going into the wp:weasel territory. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:30, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Not to say to change it, but to have a new section for the template, then.

I would absolutely propose to include a research website section to the template, though. I think that would be quite useful.

But good idea, I will suggest to add these two new sections. Did not know that was the process for adding new sections. Was wondering why when attempting to add a research website nothing showed up! ILoveFinance (talk) 18:34, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Generally we want the infoboxes to remain consistent across articles. You could look up the infobox for cryptocurrency and see if others agree to add more. For me, it runs afoul of WP:EL so I think it is not necessary. Corporate infoboxes I am sure the PR departments would also love to have 5 links so they can link to their new products as well. This is more of a WP:NOT issue. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:56, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Yep, just proposed it there. For clarity, proposed that there be three consistent website headers. Thx for the suggestion. ILoveFinance (talk) 19:04, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• Here is the discussion over at the infobox article Template_talk:Infobox_cryptocurrency#Adding/revising_website_headers. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 21:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Reversions of 32MB and CashTokens

@Grayfell

Could I get further clarity on these reversions?

As for 32MB, why is the American Institute for Economic Research not RS? Also the research paper citing the 32MB block size?

Why are the sources discussing CashTokens unreliable?

Thanks ILoveFinance (talk) 21:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

The American Institute for Economic Research is a relatively fringe advocacy sites which doesn't have a reputation for accuracy and fact checking, so is not a reliable source. The source for Cashtoken is republished from tokenist.com and nothing about 247wallst.com indicates that it imposed any sort of editorial oversight or fact-checking on content it publishes or republishes. A lot of this recently added content appears to have been added WP:BACKWARDS. Grayfell (talk) 21:59, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

How about the Bobtail research paper citing the 32MB block size? ILoveFinance (talk) 22:02, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I just realized I neglected to include this source for 32MB. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-bitcoin-cash-hard-fork-2018-11-13

Have two others that should count:

https://www.fool.com/investing/2021/08/24/the-1-factor-making-bitcoin-more-like-gold-than-ca/

https://www.fool.com/terms/b/bitcoin-cash/ ILoveFinance (talk) 22:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Do you understand what I am saying about working backwards? Throwing links at me on this talk page suggests that you do not understand what I'm saying.

I missed bobtail paper, but looking at it now, I'm underwhelmed by it as a source. This detail is mentioned on p.13 of a 14 page paper. It's an almost-passing mention buried in a symposium paper about something that is not directly about Bitcoin Cash. This is a very flimsy source for this.

Fool.com has a mildly negative reptuation as a source on Wikipedia, but it's far from the worst out there. For Marketwatch, and more broadly, do not add isolated facts and then look for sources for those fact, because that makes facts into factoids. Instead, look at what sources are saying and summarize that context. Use the Marketwatch source (for example) to explain why this information is significant. If a source doesn't explain this, than it isn't going to help disinterested readers undersand the topic any better, so it doesn't belong in the article.

As a reminder, restoring this content with new sources counts as a revert, and this article is under a one-revert rule. Do not edit war. Gain consensus on the talk page. Grayfell (talk) 22:30, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

It seems challenging to find the balance between a factoid and padding. Maybe I'm still getting a feel for what is considered proper or not. I will add the conclusions regarding the 32MB block size. ILoveFinance (talk) 22:39, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Grayfell, you are lobbing an excessive number of links seeking to understand what is going to pass, and then stating if nobody responds to you that you will assume it is kosher. You are not listening to what we are both saying in chorus. I also dont think the fool.com looks like RS, looks more like some crypto guide page and not a news article. We have discussed these cyrpto guide pages and generally they were not considered RS for most of the content in the past, certainly for nothing promotional, pushing the bitcoin cash narrative, etc. Its something akin to a Microsoft or Oracle stock quote page at fool.com, its not useful to us except maybe to establish some fact type info (what is the official website, how many coins in circulation, recent prices, etc). I would not be an RS to state that 'bitcoin cash is the coolest coin and is about to moon because of xyz'. I did remove one bit of fool sourced content, as it seemed to speculative, promotional, synth, etc. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:41, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

DAA Content Revision

@Grayfell Per the removal of the DAA content, a couple questions/suggestions:

1. I am assuming that the existing source, not itself being published, but being referenced in a journal-published work is not enough, correct?
2. This source, while different, both references the original work (since removed) and is peer reviewed. It comes to similar conclusions as well. Would this source be RS? https://ledger.pitt.edu/ojs/ledger/article/view/195

Thanks! ILoveFinance (talk) 22:33, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Here is the current source for that section, which is the only source for that entire section:

• Aggarwal, Vipul; Tan, Yong (January 2019). "A Structural Analysis of Bitcoin Cash's Emergency Difficulty Adjustment Algorithm". ResearchGate. doi:10.2139/ssrn.3383739. S2CID 214022150.

I hadn't noticed until now, but this doesn't appear to be a WP:RS either. It doesn't appear to have been published anywhere. Without reliable sources, the section should be removed.

For the other source, what, exactly, are you proposing this source be used for? WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Don't just replace sources, summarize what those sources are saying.

Grayfell (talk) 22:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Just want to check first if it would be RS. While this paper does not talk about all claims in the current text, it could probably be used to add details either to that section, or mixed into another section. If RS, then I can propose some alternate text. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:01, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

These so-called scientific sources are often not reliable. I havent looked in detail, but sometimes these can just be some grad student. Please explain why a particular scientific source is worthy to include, mostly it isnt in this genre. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 01:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

True, but also often times they are written by professors or research fellows, too.

Could you please clarify the question? ILoveFinance (talk) 01:41, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I dont have a question, we are just telling you we dont think it is an RS on this article. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:02, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, could've been more clear; Can you elaborate on this? "Please explain why a particular scientific source is worthy to include, mostly it isnt in this genre."

Maybe that last clause is why the first part is also unclear. ILoveFinance (talk) 14:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I think you can safely assume that academic sources are not going to be ok on crypto genre articles unless the scientific source author himself has a wikipedia page (eg Dan Boneh) . Otherwise we are just going to assume it is a random student and then not sufficient quality for this genre. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 19:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Why would you just assume? Most papers are very easy to tell if from a student, professor, research fellow, or otherwise.

Are we instituting a new rule? I thought published documents are acceptable (issue was with unpublished). Per Grayfell, if research is published, it can be RS. ILoveFinance (talk) 19:21, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I am not making a new rule, that is not how wikipedia works. One person doesnt make rules. We create rules through consensus. I will let Grayfell speak as to what he meant, but what I mean is if the author is not notable, the content is probably not sufficient to be considered an WP:RS. We use this across the crypto genre already. Your position about if it is published is also valid, and again WP:CONTEXTMATTERS is going to help on this. If it is peer reviewed maybe. If it is a research paper by one non-notable grad student, the answer again is going to be no mostly likely. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 19:26, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't disagree with you if a non-notable student, likely not RS. But if peer-reviewed/published, I very well imagine that can be RS without the author having a wikipedia page.

This writeup, for instance, is peer reviewed and published in a journal: https://ledger.pitt.edu/ojs/ledger/article/view/195

This is written by a professor and published in a journal: https://stanford-jblp.pubpub.org/pub/hard-forks-bitcoin/release/2

Of course, CONTEXTMATTERS, but I haven't received clarity that these are RS or not. ILoveFinance (talk) 19:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

We are not using ledger journal, that is not an RS. Maybe the Stanford piece I would also say not an RS as neither of the authors appear to be notable. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:12, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you clarify how you state they are not "notable"? It appears there is a non-solid goalpost. Criteria are peer reviewed/published. Those meet those criteria. However, now the goalpost seems to have moved? ILoveFinance (talk) 06:30, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Correct, wikipedia has no firm rules. What I say here is not a rule, it is my opinion of the established consensus. You are repeatedly stating that I am making rules or changing the rules, which I am not and thus I do not appreciate this comment. I have already advised you of a previous RFC on this article to tighten sourcing, you can assume that is quite broadly construed as to content on this article. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:36, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

You are not providing any solid ground for your comments, which I do not appreciate. Tighter sourcing, yes, we've established that. The repetition is unnecessary. But you yourself must recognize the appearance of moving goalposts when it is stated that peer-reviewed/published content would meet the criteria, then saying roughly "well that's not enough, they don't appear notable to me so I'm saying these are not RS"

I don't even quite understand why Ledger is not allowed. It is a peer-reviewed journal focused on blockchains. This is not a crypto-news source. It is a peer-reviewed journal. You just stated "that is not an RS." ILoveFinance (talk) 06:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I will remind you that Wikipedia isn't a platform for promotion or advocacy. It isn't enough for a source to be technically reliable in some unspecified context, that source needs to be neutrally summarized for the benefit of disinterested readers. In order to know whether or not a source is reliable, we need to not only know the source, but what it is going to be used for. Grayfell (talk) 07:06, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Images to support bch use as a medium of exchange

I am wondering if we are able to use images of transactions, providing they follow Wikipedia's copyright rules, within the article to depict its use as a medium of exchange. I see many articles with images alongside the written content and think it is a very good way to illustrate this capability to the reader as well as strengthening the quality of the article by providing a visible example of bch implementation. Unless there is something that I am missing, I do not really see how this can be anything but a positive addition to the article, providing the image follows the wikipedia copyright rules Artem P75 (talk) 05:31, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I dont think we even have decent RS to state this subject is even used as medium of exchange. Thus the image would be UNDUE. I am aware that this subject wants to promote itself as medium of exchange, but we follow RS to see if actually does it (not PR). Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Discussion: Removal of White Paper link

@Jtbobwaysf can you please explain how the white paper is "nonsense" That's hardly a productive edit description. That is the exact whitepaper, and found on "the official" site, per you. ILoveFinance (talk) 06:34, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I do see someone has tagged the website for source needed. Do you dispute this is the website? If so, feel free to remove it. This type of content can only stay if it without dispute. I am not opposed to its removal. I did remove the absurd claim that Satoshi Nakamoto wrote the whitepaper for Bitcoin Cash. Did you add that content? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:41, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

The whitepaper was published as a document explaining important fundamentals, as summarized in the title: "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System". The fundamentals cover several key aspects of Bitcoin such as a system avoiding a trusted third party, using a chain of proof of work, and an incentive mechanism for securing the network. It is important to note that what is described in the whitepaper does not exist in any exact form in today's Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash or any other chain. However, both Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash use the whitepaper as a basis for their fundamentals and a historical reference.

For a parallel situation, please consider, for example, Martin Luther's Theses. Can only the Lutheran church claim that as a historical root? Or is it valid for Protestantism in general to claim it as part of their historical roots? Or the Bible as a whole, there are many sects in Christianity that reference the Bible as their historical root.

It is a similar reality for Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash, whether or not one group acknowledges the other's use of the whitepaper.

Regarding your question: not sure. ILoveFinance (talk) 15:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Find many RS to show that this is the whitepaper. This is a WP:FRINGE POV to state that Nakamoto wrote a whitepaper for Bitcoin Cash. Stop pushing a promotional narrative. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 19:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Bitcoin Cash is a fork of Bitcoin, so they share history and heritage prior to the fork. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:44, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

While that might be true, do you have any RS that states this whitepaper is the whitepaper of Bitcoin Cash? We dont just WP:SYNTH things here. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:45, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Active community sanctions

Please see the "WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS" notice at the top of this page. The reason community sanctions apply to this topic is that there has been a never-ending stream of users wanting to use Wikipedia to promote crypto technology. That will not be happening. New users need to understand that articles do not use market-speak. Also, it is not reasonable for an WP:SPA to expect other editors to spend an excessive amount of time explaining basic procedures and fixing inappropriate wording. Questions can be asked at WP:Teahouse. Johnuniq (talk) 07:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Correcting "Bitcoin" to "bitcoin"

@GhostOfNoMan -- I noticed your update of "Bitcoin" to "bitcoin," per the Bitcoin FAQ. Should we update all references from capital B to lowercase? If confirmed, I can take care of that unless you plan to. Thanks! ILoveFinance (talk) 03:18, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I was wondering that myself! I posted about it on the Bitcoin talk page a few hours ago, to get other people's thoughts because I was unsure (Talk:Bitcoin#Capitalisation (bitcoin vs Bitcoin)). I feel like it wouldn't make much sense for the lowercase style to apply solely to the bitcoin article, right? So I'd definitely support updating Bitcoin → bitcoin in this article, unless anyone disagrees for some reason! GhostOfNoMan 03:40, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

There has been a lot of discussions over the years at Bitcoin and I thought the consensus was to use large B. I suggest to post over at that talkpage as that article gets much more editor traffic than this article. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 04:16, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Consensus is apparently for lowercase bitcoin per Bitcoin/FAQ (since at least 2014) – but yes, I've opened a discussion there as well. GhostOfNoMan 04:47, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

@Alon Alush, "bitcoin" must be lowercase, per Talk:Bitcoin/FAQ. Please revert your edits relating to this. Thank you. ILoveFinance (talk) 13:54, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. I wasn't aware of this up until now. Alon Alush (talk) 14:02, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

All good! Many of us weren't until GhostOfNoMan pointed it out! Thanks! ILoveFinance (talk) 14:24, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Removal of Consumer Brands accepting Bitcoin Cash

@Grayfell -- notes per the removed lines:

On the DISH point, "regurgitated" or not, that is RS. But a passing mention, so fair enough.

For AMC, Gucci, and Tag Heuer, yes, this article is not about BitPay, but BitPay is a very common tool for businesses to accept cryptocurrencies. I do not understand how this would not be relevant. Business choose what currencies they want to accept through BitPay. It is not every crypto BitPay supports. That makes it relevant. But for sources, I was just about to add another when I noticed the removal. https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/12/22779137/amc-theaters-movie-tickets-cryptocurrency-bitcoin-cash-ethereum-litecoin -- RS; this doesn't even mention BitPay, but since there is RS also mentioning BitPay, both should be included. Yes, one of four currencies (bitcoin, Ethereum, and Litecoin), but those four were chosen. If it should be written such as this "AMC began accepting Bitcoin Cash, bitcoin, Ethereum, and Litecoin in 2021," then that makes a lot of sense to me. These are not small nor insignificant brands, and these brands chose these currencies, so suggesting this would be "promo" seems odd to me. ILoveFinance (talk) 14:30, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Per The Verge article: I don’t own cryptocurrency, so I can’t personally verify how to use it to buy things online with AMC. However, at checkout on AMC’s website, PayPal is listed as a payment method with the note that it “supports cryptocurrencies.” Presumably, that means you’ll have to log in with your PayPal account and select any cryptocurrency that’s accessible there to pay for tickets or concessions. PayPal appears to be the only way to pay with cryptocurrency at AMC for the moment, so if you would prefer to use a different method, you might be out of luck right now.[2]

The author of that article openly admits they don't know how this works, and cannot be arsed to find out. This source is nothing at all, and is, yet again, a good example of why you should stop trying to edit backwards.

Not every isolated, context-free fact belong in this (or any) article, and Wikipedia isn't a platform for promotion or advocacy. If you don't see why this is promotional, I don't know what to tell you. Using Wikipedia to artificially inflate the importance of a cryptocurrency by misrepresenting obscure sources is functionally promoting that cryptocurrency. Grayfell (talk) 18:34, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Why do you claim the first article is not relevant, then? You haven't disagreed with any other point from above. ILoveFinance (talk) 19:20, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

To specifically highlight, the brands had to choose to accept Bitcoin Cash alongside the other cryptos. Companies select what currencies they want to accept, it will not be every currency BitPay offers. ILoveFinance (talk) 19:21, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, not to incessantly comment, but the point of the Verge article wasn't to use it specifically for the line, rather, in consideration of the tweet from the CEO that is in the article, where Adam Aron called out Bitcoin, Ethereum, Bitcoin Cash, and Litecoin. A major figure representing an international franchise. ILoveFinance (talk) 23:26, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Step outside of the crypto bubble for a second. Many commercial websites which offer international shipping choose to provide a drop-down menu of different currencies for prices, which are then applied to products across the entire site. This is straightforward, but it not trivial to implement and is almost always done via an intermediary payment processor. The payment processor converts the money for the company, but this is still a conscious choice from those companies, and they choose which currencies are used. If any wiki article for a commercial service mentioned this it would be an instant red-flag for being spam or paid editing.

That a crypto payment company would offer a similar (but less convenient) service is pure trivia. These flimsy sources do not make it any less trivial. These companies are not accepting BCash, they are taking payments which are converted into a single currency via an intermediary service. This is similar to a company taking payment in dollars, euros, and pounds via Square or Paypal or whatever. The main difference is the addition of yet another middle-man, but it's trivial regardless.

That a memestock CEO would make a tweet hyping a cryptocurrency service is bland hype. Again, it isn't enough to list facts in isolation, we need to use reliable sources to explain to disinterested readers why these otherwise trivial details are encyclopedically significant. In this case, that appears to be impossible. Grayfell (talk) 23:03, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for this -- I don't disagree with you on much of this. I also agree with @Jtbobwaysf 100% that this is not a list of places that accept Bitcoin Cash. No doubt about it.

My contention is that these are non-trivial businesses that are choosing to accept it, whereas they could have chosen to not accept it. To me, that gives it relevance. But we're at a difference of opinion, and I don't have more reason than that as to why it was included. Was simply a good faith argument of why to include.

Thanks ILoveFinance (talk) 02:54, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Any small or medium sized biz is pretty much trivial for wikipedia. We do include some governments accepting ethereum and bitcoin and can maybe also do this for bitcoin cash. But what you are referring to as major is probably undue in both its inclusion and also the puffery of the businesses that are receiving it. Your edits on this article now appear to be promotional of the article subject. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:20, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• Wikipedia is WP:NOT of list of the places that accept bitcoin cash. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 04:58, 7 October 2024 (UTC)