Template talk:Sonatas

This template is within the scope of WikiProject Classical music, which aims to improve, expand, copy edit, and maintain all articles related to classical music, that are not covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this template or visit the project page for more details.Classical musicWikipedia:WikiProject Classical musicTemplate:WikiProject Classical musicClassical music articles

Purpose

I would not want to navigate to other sonatas, but perhaps others will want to. Where will Mozart's piano sonatas go? This is a very broad topic, a bit too broad for a navbox perhaps? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:15, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The new form of the section on composers is quite random. A reader would not be guided to sonatas by Debussy, Ravel, Fauré, Franck, Poulenc, Honegger, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Medtner, Prokofiev, Hindemith, Schumann, Liszt, Vivaldi, etc, etc, etc. Sonata form has been used so often, that the entries for composer could not possibly be encyclopedic. In its present expanded form, it is a random scrapbook. Mathsci (talk) 10:50, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would advise Francis Schonken to look at a book on the sonata, instead of using wikipedia as a source. There are nine piano sonatas by Prokofiev; there are two for violin, one of which also exists for flute. There are many sonatas by Paul Hindemith, including three for piano. There are the two violin sonatas and two cello sonatas by Fauré. There are the sonatas of Ernst Krenek. And so on. The idea of incorporating composers in the template has little or no value, since it lacks focus, is arbitrary and, if comprehensive, would not be viewable on a single screen. The index of the recent (introductory) book "The Sonata" by Thomas Schmidt-Beste published by Cambridge University Press has a long index. At the end are the composers Zelenka and Zimmermann; going backwards in the book there are Wendling, Silvius Weiss, Weber, Viotti, Vitali, Vieuxtemps, Vaughan Williams, Ustvolskaya, Tippett, Spohr, Stanford, Starvinsky, Stamitz, and so on, and so on. It is a misguided idea to include all composers of sonatas in a template. At a guess there could be well over 500 composers in such a list. Ernst Krenek is a randomly chosen example of a composer who has written several sonatas. Max Reger also wrote several duo sonatas, and so on. I would ask the question, "Which classical or modern composer has not written sonatas?" Mathsci (talk) 14:43, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting the entire "By composer" section, with the reasons listed above. Another example: there is Violin Sonata No. 1 (Fauré) and Violin Sonata No. 2 (Fauré) but no Violin sonatas (Fauré) which could be linked by the template. intforce (talk) 23:36, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)This has appeared on my watchlist. In the case of Fauré, there is the early violin sonata in A and the very late sonata (which quotes La Bonne Chanson, L'Hiver a cessé), so lumping them together is not a good idea. If you've played them (I've play the piano parts), you would know. Looking at what I wrote 3 years ago, I don;t want to repeat myself. Martinu is another composer omitted (flute sonata) ... Fortunately La Bonne Chanson (Fauré) is there. So too is L'horizon chimérique. Also Le jardin clos and La chanson d'Ève. But upper case/lower case is tricky. It's a pity that Nectoux is not used as a source. Mathsci (talk) 00:12, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

An alternate idea may be to follow the conventions at Template:String quartet compositions, which in my mind makes a lot more sense. That is, to only link to articles on a "set" of sonatas by a certain composer; linking to Organ Sonatas (Bach) for example, but not single ones like Sonata for clarinet and bassoon. Aza24 (talk) 23:54, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For me, it is not clear why sets of sonatas should be handled differently than single sonatas. Many composers have written only one sonata for a specific genre, and some of them, e.g. Violin Sonata (Franck), are part of the core repertoire, arguably even more significant than entire sets of sonatas by other composers. Also, {{String quartet compositions}} has the same problem as this template, as far as I can see, which can be illustrated by example as well: there is no entry for Beethoven, even though his string quartets are some of the most famous, since an overview article for all of his string quartets doesn't exist. To be frank, that template should be deleted by the same reasoning as to why the "By composer" section on this template should be removed. intforce (talk) 00:10, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote Organ Sonatas (Bach) (the original title was Organ sonatas, BWV 525–530) and Six Sonatas for Violin and Harpsichord, BWV 1014–1019. I probably wrote one of the articles anout the late flute and harpsichord sonatas of Bach. The gamba sonatas also have versions of trio sonatas for two flutes. Their are numerous Vivaldi sonatas, some of which are trio sonatas. Also Handel (Op. 2 and Op. 5). There is a Honegger sonata for violin and piano. And so on. There are trios (or sonatas?) by Francis Poulenc and Jean Françaix (1994, dedicated to William Waterhouse) for oboe, bassoon and piano. For choosing pieces to be listed, it seems reasonable to choose anything that goes under the name sonata or trio sonata, whatever the period (e.g. Debussy's sonata for flute, viola and harp or Vivaldi's trio sonata for alto recorder, bassoon and continuo). Milhaud wrote at least eleven sonatas of various kinds. Mendelssohn composed organ sonatas. Mathsci (talk) 00:35, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Gerda's initial comment. If someone insists, I think it would be better served with a category on all those articles listed. - kosboot (talk) 02:15, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Side note: We have List of sonatas, which is pretty comprehensive, though a lot of stuff is missing (most Mozart piano and violin sonatas, Beethoven violin sonatas, ...). intforce (talk) 02:39, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm willing to support removal of the sonatas if it reaches some consensus here Intforce, Mathsci, Gerda Arendt, Kosboot. If we're in agreement—which I think we are?—we should be good to delete the section. Aza24 (talk) 22:56, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. - kosboot (talk) 00:57, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Once they are removed, I can do a pass with AWB to remove the template from the pages it does not link to anymore. intforce (talk) 01:01, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. In its current state, the template is arbitrary and serves no purpose. Mathsci (talk) 03:31, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:08, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, have done so now. Intforce feel free to do a pass with AWB. Aza24 (talk) 23:53, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done intforce (talk) 00:10, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]