Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Red Hood

Red Hood

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I feel this is a tough AFD to navigate given the murkyness of comics (because comics are comics) the page fails WP:GNG. While Jason Todd is notable, and The Joker are notable, the "Red Hood" isnt. Most coverage of "Red Hood" is either coverage of Jason or the Joker or the Red Hood Gang, not Red Hood. The idea of Red Hood as a Legacy hero isn't really a thing in comics the way Robin or Batgirl is. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 03:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 03:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why delete? The page clearly has some use. IMHO you could make fairly decent cases for a redirect to Jason Hood or the Joker (is that confirmed in whatever iteration of DC 'continuity' we're on this week? That he was the only version of the dome-head Red Hood?), so the most sensible thing would be a disambiguation-type page that swiftly explains the gist and links to the various appropriate pages. Outright deletion seems just about the worst option, so I'm voting Keep and make more useful through editing. BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 11:51, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep WP:SIGCOV here, here, as well as in the Batman: A Visual History I can't access. While I can't be totally certain, I think Red Hood is probably notable and enough WP:BEFORE has not been performed. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Comics Encyclopedia source is just a plot summary of his role, and I wouldn't really consider it SIGCOV per Wikipedia:NOTPLOT. The IGN source is similarly just a plot summary of Red Hood's past appearances, and is additionally only talking about Jason Todd's version of the alias, which does not address the nom's concerns of being separately notable from Todd.

As an aside, how can you be sure the Visual History contains SIGCOV if you can't access it? Mostly just asking out of curiosity more than anything, because at a glance the guide itself seems akin to Comics Encyclopedia in terms of its coverage. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:03, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Plot summaries are transformative, and hence valid secondary sources. Jclemens (talk) 21:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would tend to agree with Jclemens. WP:INDISCRIMINATE does not forbid the use of plot summaries, only establishes the article must have some indication of its external importance and significance, somewhere.

And as I said, I cannot be sure if there is SIGCOV in Visual History, but it's easier to keep and confirm later than to delete and regret it. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 00:06, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It does not forbid the use of plot summaries, but I cite NOTPLOT for a reason. An article needs something beyond plot. Per the policy, works must be discussed "in an encyclopedic manner, discussing the development, design, reception, significance, and influence of works in addition to concise summaries of those work." So far there haven't been any sources actually demonstrating this, and any that do are focused entirely on the character of Todd, not the alias of Red Hood. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 03:16, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have struck out my original opinion, and change it to redirect since it is nearly synonymous with Jason Todd at this point. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 08:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm not clear what's being asked here. Do you want this turned into a disambiguation page? Clearly, something should exist at Red Hood. Obviously, you would prefer it be different than it is now, but what is your end goal and what are the policies and guidelines that justify it? Jclemens (talk) 21:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think a redirect to Jason Todd with a hatnote for Joker. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 00:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why have you asked for deletion if you feel it should be a redirect? Have you tried to reach a consensus in the talk page of the article or an associated project page before nominating the article for deletion? Sorry, but this seems like a misuse of the AfD process to achieve something that could be done by normal editing. BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Jason Todd per nom. All coverage indicates that Red Hood is basically only known for the association the alias has to Todd, and a hatnote can point to Joker for his usage of the alias. The lack of actual sourcing for Red Hood surprises me; if anything comes up, let me know, but as it stands, the coverage is so little that I don't see a need to merge anything to Todd, when all of Todd's plot information covers the necessary Red Hood bits adequately as is. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 03:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No action Let a talk page discussion ensue. Nothing is so broken about this process that anything needs to be deleted, non-XfD processes have not been tried, and there's no indication that anything needs to be enforced with administrative tools. Jclemens (talk) 19:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's already at AfD, why rehash the same conversation at the talk page; the nom should have started a conversation on the talk page, but this has already been made. DoctorWhoFan91 (talk) 06:33, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) Shouldn't need admin intervention unless admin intervention is needed.

2) Shouldn't be mandated unless consensus has failed.

Two different sides of an issue, but WP:PEREN#Rename AFD indicates the community has rejected AfD as a venue for all discussions. If no deletion is argued, then it's actually a speedy keep criteria. Jclemens (talk) 02:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect/Merge Redirect to Jason Todd and maybe add info about why he took up the Red Hood moniker. DoctorWhoFan91 (talk) 06:33, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Let this page stay. Red Hood was first used as an alias by the person who later became Joker. Then a gang was named after him in "The New 52". If the outcome is merge, I prefer having Red Hood merged to List of DC Comics characters: R and Red Hood Gang redirected to List of teams and organizations in DC Comics. Plus, @Jclemens: is right about the fact that this should've been brought up as a talk page discussion first. --Rtkat3 (talk) 00:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Jason Todd per Pokelego999 and others and due to insufficient coverage of this topic in particular, for a standalone article. Arguments about this being the wrong venue seem to thoroughly useless WP:BURO. The article is here now and there's no point dragging it out if consensus can be gotten here. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 13:34, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Jason Todd with a hatnote to Joker added there. While the Red Hood name was originally used by the Joker, it has, for a long time now, been associated almost entirely with Jason Todd, making him the primary topic. And I am not really seeing the logic in having information of Jason Todd as the Red Hood in a separate article from our full article on Jason Todd, which also covers him being the Red Hood. Even the sources shown above are describing the history of Jason Todd as a whole, not "The Red Hood" as a separate concept. Since the "In Other Media" section is just a shortened selection of items already present in either the Joker or Jason Todd's own "in other media" articles, the only information here that is not already fully covered on either Jason Todd or The Joker articles is the information on "The Red Hood Gang" which is simply not notable. Rorshacma (talk) 16:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect per Pokelego999. There isn't reliable reception and analysis for this as a separate subject, and so it can't meet WP:PLOT and WP:GNG. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Jason Todd. Agree that there are not enough sources to establish GNG for the Red Hood as a concept. Anyone searching for the Red Hood will almost certainly mean Jason. Joker's article already includes information about how the Red Hood relates to him, and the gang is not notable. Rhino131 (talk) 21:51, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Use this page for more detailed information on the Red Hood character, including the history of his being portrayed by the Joker and the rise of the Red Hood Gang. As the character is primarily known for being an alias of Jason Todd, have a shorter summary of this period in the Jason Todd article and link to this article for interested readers. 77.102.202.253 (talk) 22:24, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This doesn't really address the Wikipedia:ALLPLOT issues described above, and Todd's article isn't really at a point where a summary-only split-out of Red Hood is needed for something like size requirements. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 14:04, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]