Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2018 July 17

< July 16	July 18 >

July 17

Module:Sum

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was relisted on 2018 July 25. Primefac (talk) 00:10, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Module:Sum (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Module:Math (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:ETV Network

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. No opposition. Primefac (talk) 00:18, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Template:ETV Network (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

No articles are linked in the template. Looks like all previous ETV Network channels were sold and renamed by the Network18 Group. No point of having this template anymore. Gotitbro (talk) 03:56, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

delete, insufficient navigation. Frietjes (talk) 13:21, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Olympic events sidebar sub-templates

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was keep for now. There seem to be some accessibility issues, which can be dealt with outside of this discussion. NPASR if this family of templates is still legitimately unused in two months. Bad faith removals in order to claim it is "unused" will result in administrative sanctions. If there is a genuine concern about using these templates as a replacement for the existing template(s), then a discussion should be held at a centralized location (WikiProject, VP, etc) before they get brought back here. Primefac (talk) 00:17, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Archery at the Olympics (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Badminton at the Olympics (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Football and futsal at the Olympics (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Golf at the Olympics (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Rugby union and rugby sevens at the Olympics (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Swimming at the Olympics (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Template:Triathlon at the Olympics (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Unused. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 02:14, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Will be put into use soon. This suite of templates are still under construction. I suppose I simply forgot about this project a while back or something like that. Thanks for the reminder, although you could’ve probably given me a nudge on my talk page or something, just to make things a lot less drastic... – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 02:28, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is no support for these changes on WP:OLYMPICS. There is no point. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 02:29, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Important note - So I've just been made aware that the nominator has been going aroud reverting what uses of these templates have been made, and then threw up the templates for deletion under the guise that they were "unused". The nominator has not acted in good faith and is trying to delete templates they don't agree with through malicious ways. Here's three examples of what they've been doing: Figure 1, Figure 2, Figure 3. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 02:55, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Per this discussion there was no consensus for change. Perhaps deleting them is not the best option, but converting templates without consensus is malicious. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 03:16, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sportsfan 1234: You never once brought me into any of these discussions. I certainly wasn't aware of them, and I would've thought replacing a borderline broken series of sidebars that were too long, had too many separate templates, and intruded on article elements with a {{#switch}}-based series of sidebars that had collapsed lists and conformed with the design of {{Infobox Olympic event}} and kept the size and numbers to a minimum would've been somewhat protected under WP:BOLD. It's less a matter of consensus and more actually updating articles and templates to modern standards and not neglecting them by leaving them in a bad shape. If you legitimately want to bring up a discussion, how about don't do it behind my back and don't try to delete the templates by outright misleading TfD by saying the templates weren't being used without mentioning that you're the one that put them out of use. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 03:29, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - if for no other reason than the nomination gives the appearance of bad faith. Jeff in CA (talk) 03:59, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Assuming that "This template is designed as a merger and replacement for six predecessor navigational sidebar templates, all of which should ideally redirect to {{Olympic events sidebar/Golf}}" is correct, it seems like a good move. Nigej (talk) 10:57, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - There are currently 29 {{SwimmingAtXXXXSummerOlympics}} navboxes that could be combined in Olympic events sidebar/Swimming. 17 for archery. And so on. Their naming and formatting are inconsistent. Merging and replacing with a far smaller and more manageable set of templates would be good. (And yes, removing the new templates and putting them on TfD as "unused" rather than acknowledging that you prefer the old templates is uncool.) -- Jonel (Speak to me) 11:33, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
delete, horrible for WP:ACCESSIBILITY due to the excessive use of {{dot}} and <br /> with columns for data alignment. Frietjes (talk) 13:20, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That seems like something to fix rather than a reason to throw them out. Is Template:ArcheryAt2008SummerOlympics better for accessibility? How so, specifically (e.g., not using {{dot}} is a good example)? Can those accessibility-improving parts of the old templates be implemented in these ones? -- Jonel (Speak to me) 13:42, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Frietjes: Can you clarify how exactly {{dot}} and <br /> can cause an accessibility issues? I can reformat it to something better if you can suggest an alternative way to format the lists. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 13:45, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
yes, Template:ArcheryAt2008SummerOlympics is better. if you use your mouse to copy-and-paste the content, it should be aligned. otherwise, my screen reader has no idea which labels are associated with the various parts of the content. Frietjes (talk) 13:48, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Frietjes: I'm not sure you understand how the templates work. You can't just "copy and paste" the template over to the new one. Templates such as {{ArcheryAt2008SummerOlympics}} use {{Sidebar games events}} as their base. The new {{Olympic events sidebar}} suite of templates is built from the ground up on a simple {{sidebar with collapsible lists}} base. I can modify code within the {{Olympic events sidebar}} to mimic the format of templates such as {{ArcheryAt2008SummerOlympics}}, which is what I'm attempting to do here, but I can't copy and paste the {{Sidebar games events}} parameters and inputs into the collapsible, interchangeable lists without breaking them. What I'm currently attempting now as I write this, to address your WP:ACCESSIBILITY concerns, is to try to recreate the collapsible lists using bare wikitable code instead of the lines and breaks you had a problem with. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 14:08, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
PhilipTerryGraham, by "copy and paste the content", I meant the result as you "see it" on your screen. in other words, don't look at the wikitext, but look at it as it appears on your screen. then use your mouse to copy and paste the content as you see it on your screen. the screen reader reads the text as it appears in the html in sequential order. the {{Sidebar games events}} was designed to put the content in sequential order for accessibility reasons. there is no reason to reinvent something that is already working better than the reinvented version. trust me, I understand how the template works (primary author of Template:Sidebar games events/Module:Sidebar games events). Frietjes (talk) 14:16, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Frietjes: So you're telling me to literally copy the actual rendered template and paste it? You're really gonna need to clarify. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 14:28, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bad
Year	Result
1990 1991 1992	First Third Second

Result of copy and paste: 1990 1991 1992 First Third Second

Good
Year	Result
1990	First
1991	Third
1992	Second

Result of copy and paste: 1990 First 1991 Third 1992 Second

in the first case, the information is not aligned. in the second case, the information is aligned. Frietjes (talk) 14:34, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Frietjes: Okay... you still haven't explained how you managed to get that result out of a simple copy + paste procedure as you described it. You even used a wikitable to produce the examples you depicted. Even this table does not work within the confines of a collapsible list with {{#switch}} parser functions. Here's how it renders in those circumstances. In fact, this is how any wikitable renders in these circumstances out of all the attempts and tests and dead ends I've encountered thus far, a single, solitary curly bracket. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 14:49, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

PhilipTerryGraham (1) a technical discussion of how to program using wikicode seems beyond the scope of this discussion, but to include wikitables inside of parser functions, you need to replace the vertical bars with {{!}}. (2) from the documentation for {{dot}}: This template's use for dotted lists is now deprecated. Use {{Flatlist}} or class="hlist" instead; see WP:HLIST. (3) if you would like me to explain the steps for copy-and-pasting text, I can do so, but it would seem beyond the scope of this discussion. Frietjes (talk) 14:57, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Frietjes: Many thanks for the suggestion to use pipe magic words to build the wikitables! It finally works! You can see a positive result on one of the templates I'm reformatting, {{Archery at the Olympics}}. The example shown on the right is that for the 1920 input. I've also incorporated {{Hlist}} formatting per your suggestion, too. Hopefully this adequately addresses the accessibility concerns you had! :) – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 15:16, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Hhkohh (talk) 07:15, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as above. Giant Snowman 07:43, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman: 'Support' as in keep or delete the templates? – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 07:55, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, clarified. Giant Snowman 07:56, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:3001derivatives

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. No opposition. Primefac (talk) 00:19, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Template:3001derivatives (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Propose deletion. Template navigates between a loose collection of firearm cartridges that have no clearly defined linkages. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 01:22, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

DELETE...The 30-01 was a unknown experimental cartridge, that was completely overshadowed by the 30-03 and 30-06 cartridges.--RAF910 (talk) 01:41, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).