my favorite of all D. Drake's novels and among my top 50-100 books of all time - read it a few times across the years and enjoyed it every time; a futmy favorite of all D. Drake's novels and among my top 50-100 books of all time - read it a few times across the years and enjoyed it every time; a future re-imaging of the Argonauts story in the Hammer's Slammers universe (though can be read as a standalone and I haven;t read other universe stories as they didn't really interest me) with monsters, heroes/heroines, villains, adventure and discovery...more
sequel (and concluding volume with a definite ending) to Cyador's heirs starting some years later and following Lerial now getting to his full powers sequel (and concluding volume with a definite ending) to Cyador's heirs starting some years later and following Lerial now getting to his full powers as a mage as he has to undertake a diplomatic mission to assist Cigoerne's neighbor and lesser foe Afrit, against the major threat of the Duke of Heldya;
There is a lot of history there as detailed in the prologue as well as in the earlier book, so Lerial doesn't quite know who are his enemies, the barbarous Heldyans who can seemingly throw tens of thousands of soldiers against Afrit or Cigoerne, the Afritan commanders, some of whom know that a few years back Lerial mercilessly destroyed an Afritan battalion who tried to invade Cigoerne to recapture some refugees, the Afritan merchants whose greed of gold and power may induce them to treason and actually welcome the Heldyan conquerors to be, the Afritan duke Atroyan who is mercurial, weak and whose rule is unstable or the powerful Afritan arms commander, Rhemuel, the duke's younger brother who has secret ties with Lerial's own family.
This novel is vintage LE Modesitt, a page turner end to end and has everything one wants from a fantasy. Again many more similarities with the Imager series rather than the earlier Recluce books and a great read overall, as good as the Quaeryt or Rhenn books as now there is no slow start or need for exposition like in the first Lerial book
Intrigue, personal fights, battles of all kinds, assassinations, but also diplomacy, balls, romance, not to speak of superb world building and discovering a different culture through the eyes of our hero.
Highly, highly recommended and a top 10 book of mine for the year...more
started this and seemed a bit "interesting dialogue but who cares" and I started reading forward and then the ending which is really, really powerful started this and seemed a bit "interesting dialogue but who cares" and I started reading forward and then the ending which is really, really powerful so I went back to read it end to end; has some great stuff so far, though it is really dark no question about it
I finished Dark Defiles and on first read I felt it was very good - maybe not fully satisfying as I thought RK Morgan went a bit overboard in trying to do "anti-fantasy" so there were moments the book read like a parody where Ringil (or the other two main characters, Archeth and Egar though somewhat less evident there as Egar was still an impulsive barbarian and Archeth a cool superior-race - ok partly as she was half human after all - intellect) did something utterly contrarian just to do it and say "f.. you" to everyone (while RK Morgan implicitly said f.. you to the fantasy reader so to speak); but there were tons and tons of powerful moments, most of the stuff from earlier 2 books was explained, and there was a mostly definite conclusion;
As the novel stayed with me, i felt i needed a full reread of all 3 books (Steel remains, Cold command, dark Defiles) and after that I notched up my appreciation of Dark Defiles and the series overall and now i feel that it is indeed one of the best fantasy series of recent times: very powerful, very well developed and thought out and full of memorable quotes.
While the content is modern, the structure is really old fashioned with all 3 books forming a huge one novel tapestry - while more recent top notch series started fragmenting the storyline into definite parts and either expanding the universe or raising the stakes, rather than pretty much introducing all the main stuff in book 1, however indirectly and veiled there, with books 2 and 3 mostly piling revelations, action and depth; the one drawback is that a lot of the finer points are appreciated only at the end when one knows what's really what and with 6 years from book 1 to book 3 one really needs the full series reread...
here is one such quote that is not that spoilery, as I blanked the names:
"Ringil rubbed his chin. “Did ***** do something to you?”
“Please—”
“And yet you sent him to die on a spike.”
“That*…” A spasm of pain twisted **** face. “It was the law.”
“So is this. It’s recent legislation, you may not have heard. Harm those I care for, and those you care for will be harmed. How does it feel?”
and one more:
"Supposing I could take you to that city—how would you live there? Your blade would be behind glass in a museum, and no use for it even if it were not. The languages you speak would be millennia dead. What would you do for money, for food? Do you see yourself cleaning tables, perhaps, in some eatery whose owner does not mind your halting attempts at the local tongue? A brief career as a tavern whore, maybe, while your looks last? Do you see yourself washing dishes or mucking out horses, as you grow old and gray? Does that appeal?
He grimaces. Well, now you come to mention it …
Quite. And here is our difficulty. Your daydreamed retirement is no more honest than the daydreamed heroics of young boys who’ve never picked up a blade. It is a fantasy staple—stale, learned longing, incurious of any human detail, a mediocre hand dealt out from the grubby, endlessly reshuffled myths and legends and comforting lies you people like to tell each other. There is less weight to it in the end than in all your boyhood fantasies of a life with the gypsies, out on the marsh at Trelayne. That at least was something you might once have attempted, a path you might have taken. But this—this is a lie to yourself that you carry around in your heart because you’d rather not face the truth.
And what truth would that be?
........................
I want them dead, he says quietly. I want them all ****ing dead.
Ah. The Mistress of Dice and Death puts a companionable arm around his shoulders. Her touch bites through his clothes like freezing iron. Now that’s more like it."
Colorless Tsukuru Tazaki... is a book that perfectly exemplified for me the notion of "magic of writing" which makes book reviewing or recommending soColorless Tsukuru Tazaki... is a book that perfectly exemplified for me the notion of "magic of writing" which makes book reviewing or recommending so hard and subjective
I saw quite a few flaws (one glaring one regards a main "event" of the novel and how it was possible that the hero knew nothing about it for many years when any competent police force should have questioned him automatically) and there is so much hinted or promised that is never addressed (the death/color thingy is the most glaring one), the ending is unsatisfying to a large extent - way too open for my taste leaving the reader on an emotional plateau with no real resolution;
However I really, really loved this book and I rate it much higher than tons of other books with less flaws but less magic too; it just grabbed me and I couldn't put it down until the end, I really liked the main character and his inner struggles as well as the way the novel is structured time-wise; time will say how much lasting impression this will make, but for now the book magic trumps all the flaws for me
the blurb tells a lot about the premise and essentially all is about Tsukuru Tazaki, a well to do construction engineer of railway stations, from a wealthy family and who never had want of anything, but also never had any burning desire for anything in consequence until, well read to see what
Expelled brutally from his magical circle of high friends, and teetering on the brink of death for a few months at age 20, Tsukuru lives on and some 16 years later he finally will try and figure why that happened...
Flaws, short novel that with 100-200 extra pages and going into all the promised stuff that is touched upon and abandoned, could have been a masterpiece, but still magical writing at least for me, here and now......more
an interesting book; not sure when will finish but it is quite compelling so far; US publication next year, UK or Romanian editions available now
Wherean interesting book; not sure when will finish but it is quite compelling so far; US publication next year, UK or Romanian editions available now
Where Tigers Are at Home by JM Blas de Robles - this is a book that deserves all the accolades and prizes it got as it will be hard to find a better book next year when it is published in the US; on the other hand it is not really sff, though its collection of oddities and strangeness are more sffnal than many genre books, while its structure will not appeal to completist fans who want every t crossed and i dotted; hypnotic, mesmerizing and a masterpiece of world literature
I plan to have a full review soon so a few points:
- the narration has 6 strands; 5 that take place in contemporary Brazil and follow the fates of an intertwined group of people - the "middle class" von Wogau family and the various people connected with them, the rich Moreira and retainers, the poor and disabled Nelson and his "uncle" Ze - and the 6th that follows Father Athanasius Kircher life and deeds as told by faithful secretary Caspar Schott in the turbulent 17th century; this last thread is almost as big as the other 5
French news correspondent and independent scholar Eleazard von Wogau is going through a painful divorce with archaeologist Brazilian wife Elaine and has moved to Alcantara, a decrepit provincial town where he is sent by his editors to prepare for publication and annotate, this incredible discovery, an original manuscript from the 17th century purporting to tell the life of Father Kirchner.
His student daughter Moema chooses to stay away from both parents and start college in Fortaleza, away from them, while indulging in drugs, a same sex relationship with roommate Thais and flings with various boys and men, most notable being visiting French lecturer Roetgen whom she takes on a trip to an isolated beach village
Elaine - a professor at the University of Brazilia - is going on a jungle archaeology trip of a lifetime with a few colleagues, including star paleo-zoologist Dietlev who is her current on and off lover and the just minted geology PhD Mauro, son of rich Maranhao governor Moreira who is corrupt and involved in very shady stuff as most of his money actually comes from his Countess wife Carlotta and he only administers it in her name...
In the Fortaleza Favela de Pirambu, 15 year old "reduced" Nelson is scrapping a begging and occasional thievery life and dreaming of famed outlaw Lampiao and of better things, while squirreling money to buy his dream wheelchair - Nelson has no legs from birth - while being helped/tutored by truck driver, "uncle" Ze
All these tales intertwine and get associated with the life and times of Father Kircher who was in some ways the last polymath of the pre-scientific world and who wrote tons of books on everything and more, collecting all the oddities known at the time and as he insisted of filtering everything trough the Jesuit teachings, being generally wrong in everything in the sense that Aristotle is wrong in his science etc
Again a superb book that just rolls after the first 50-100 pages where we get acquainted with what is what...more
I finished Mage's Blood by David Hair; the book itself - action, characters, portrayal of the cultures (Western, Islamic and Indian in barely veiled dI finished Mage's Blood by David Hair; the book itself - action, characters, portrayal of the cultures (Western, Islamic and Indian in barely veiled disguise) and their clash well done with nuanced characters, good and bad guys and girls on both sides - the Sainted Mater-Empress Lucia takes top prize for pure evilness, though it degenerates into cartoonish stuff on occasion - but I had two structural issues that at least for now stops the series from being a top-top level one:
The world itself or at least the known continents are just a shrunken version of Europe and Asia and that makes it feel a little like a small sandbox rather than a real world and second the cultures described have been in isolation one from another for untold millenniums before a few hundred years ago when the appearance of magic in the world allowed the West to get to the East so to speak (that would be a third flaw in a way, why not do it the other way, with the East getting the magic and getting to the west first) and I just cannot believe the unitary nature of the cultures as despite surface differences there is a fundamental similarity between the Western, Islamic and Indian cultures in our world and in the world of the novel, which of course is not surprising in our world considering how they interacted and influenced each other forever so to speak (compare to the pre-Columbian Maya, Inca, Mexica or even the North American Native cultures and see what I mean), but it stretches the disbelief thingy in the novel
Still a gripping read, lots of twists and intriguing characters so I am in for the duration; a full FBc rv with Mihir in a few days and I will either c/p my part here or post the link; also a very good ending with a TBC sign but no real cliffhangers and revelations and big promises for the next volume
FBC Rv
INTRODUCTION: "Most of the time the Moontide Bridge lies deep below the sea, but every 12 years the tides sink and the bridge is revealed, its gates open for trade.
The Magi are hell-bent on ruling this new world, and for the last two Moontides they have led armies across the bridge on 'crusades' of conquest.
Now the third Moontide is almost here and, this time, the people of the East are ready for a fight ... but it is three seemingly ordinary people that will decide the fate of the world"
Intriguing blurb, great sample so a novel that became a must read on publication, Mage's Blood is David Hair's first foray into adult fantasy.
ANALYSIS: (Liviu) The setup of the series is as follows: the world of Urthe where the irregular orbit of the Moon creates huge tidal differences on a 12 year cycle while making sea navigation all but impossible outside locally coastal; for many centuries, the two main continents in which the action takes place, Yuros and Antiopia/Ahmedhassa have been in complete ignorance one from another despite being separated only by 300 miles of water and developing a Western like civilization in Yuros and Islamic (Ahm) and Indian (Lakh) - like cultures in Ahmedhassa.
However some 500 years before the start of the novel in 927, magic - gnosis - comes to the West when the 1000 followers of a hippie-like prophet, Corineus, are touched by supernatural power in a terrible and unforgettable night. Some few hundred die, including Corineus, some few hundred are unchanged, but some few hundred become extremely powerful magicians called Ascendants whose gnosis gets transmitted linearly by blood - child of mage and non-mage gets 1/2 power and so it goes up to 1/16 mage blood which is lowest where gnosis manifests - with the caveat that mage with mage couples have very few children overall so "pure bloods" remain relatively rare, while mixed bloods abound.
The original Ascendants split into factions - a militant one that forms a mighty empire in Yuros that rules to the present day and a peaceful one led by Antonin Meiros that retreats to the ends of Yuros in Pontus and sets up Ordo Costruo dedicated to improving the lives of people by magic; among other things, gnosis allows magical flying machines to work, so Anthiopia is discovered by air some 300 years ago and limited trade and visitations occur.
Meiros - still living in 927, as Ascendants are very long lived - and his followers want to do good, so some 100 years ago he built a tremendous bridge appropriately called Leviathan Bridge, 300 miles long, connecting Pontus with the nation of Dhassa whose capital Hebusalim is the Holy City of the Ahm religion. The bridge opens for two years, every 12 years due to the tides - we learn more details later from Meiros himself. Trade and some colonization ensue and everyone prospers for about 100 years, but the leading imperial families are not happy as in the words of the evil-supremo of the series to date, Sainted Mater-Empress Lucia:
"‘But Meiros, an Ascendant too craven to join the liberation of Yuros from the Rimoni yoke, left the fellowship of the Three Hundred and built that cursed Bridge, and from that Bridge do all of our woes come! I wonder, does Antonin Meiros even know what he has done?’
He seemed perfectly aware of it last time I saw him, reflected Gyle. He wondered whether Lucia Fasterius truly believed the bigoted dogma she spoke. She seemed intelligent, learned – kindly, even. But in her eyes something fanatic lurked, like a venomous snake.
Lucia came to a halt behind her chair and gripped the wooden back tightly. ‘For a century we have seen the Bridge open every twelve years, when the tides drop to levels that permit traverse. We have seen the merchants pour across then return with all manner of addictive Eastern goods – opium and hashish, coffee and tea, even the silks and other luxuries that entrance our people. They can virtually name their prices on return. The bankers extend credit to merchants whilst squeezing the nobility, the magi-protectors who made Rondelmar what it is.
Who are the richest men in Rondelmar? The merchants and bankers! Fat obsequious slime like Jean Benoit and his merchant cabal. And what have they bought with their ill-gotten gains? Our homes – our belongings – our art, and worse: they have purchased our sons and daughters, our Blood!’ Lucia was shouting now, spittle flecking her lips. ‘Those scum are buying our children and taking them to wife or husband, so that their misbegotten offspring will have everything, both gold and gnosis, and as a result, we are seeing a new breed, the mage-merchant, nasty, grasping half-breeds."
So in an act of treachery, the Imperial legions attack over the bridge in 904 and take Hebusalim in an orgy of blood and destruction while Meiros chooses non-interference rather than breaking his famed bridge and open war with the Empire, so he ensures hatred from both sides...
The Antiopian armies retake Hebusalim once the bridge submerges under the tide as air support from Yuros is not enough, so another round of massacres ensue, while in the second Crusade of 916, the Empire strikes back with ever more force and holds Hebusalim since. In the meantime, the hardships due to the Crusade led to a revolt in a southern province of the Empire, Noros, which while defeated is still shrouded in some mystery today and now in 927, one year before the next opening of the bridge, the Empire prepares the "Crusade to end all crusades", while the Antiopians have declares holy shihad to defeat the invaders...
The main characters of the novel are: Elena Anborn, Norosian half-blood mage and former feared guerrilla fighter in the revolt under the (in)famous Gurvon Gyle who appears in the quote above as an intimate of the ruling Empress Mater as he was pardoned years after the revolt on condition to do the Empire's dirty work from then on.
Ostensibly working as bodyguard for the Nesti ruling family of Javon which is an Antiopian kingdom which was partly settled from Yuros during the peaceful era and is unique in the normal - though tense of course - cohabitation of the two races, Elena is actually under Gyle's orders and unfortunately for everyone living there, Javon is very important strategically for both Empire and the Sultan.
Alaron Mercer, Norosian quarter blood mage and nephew of Elena who is preparing to graduate the college of magic and get his accreditation. His story is in large part the typical coming-of-age one from fantasy, but in a nice twist, Alaron is still a quarter blood mage so not quite the usually powerful "boy of destiny", but he compensates with his agile mind and intense curiosity...
Ramita Ankesharan from a Lakh family in an obscure city but whose father, Ispal, gets an offer he cannot refuse, so Amita's expected life is turned upside down and she will travel far away to a destiny we only start to glimpse for now...
Kazim Makani, Ramita's fiancee, son of an Amteh warrior who became blood-brother with Ispal in Hebusalim during the terrible 904 - as in our history, Lakh is ruled by an Amteh emperor with the majority locals coexisting uneasily with the Amteh invaders and converts. When Ramita is taken away, Kazim goes berserk and later joins the shihad but of course things are not quite as they seem. The time of trials for all is approaching!
Mage's Blood has great action and memorable characters; the portrayal of the cultures and their clash is extremely well done with nuanced characters, good and bad guys and girls on both side.
On the negative side I had two structural issues: the world itself or at least the known continents to date are just a shrunken version of Europe and Asia and that makes it feel a little like a small sandbox rather than a real world.
Then the cultures described have been in isolation one from another for untold centuries before the gnosis and the airships when the appearance of magic in the world allowed the West to get to the East so to speak - that would be a third flaw in a way, why not do it the other way, with the East getting the magic and getting to the West first - and I just cannot believe the unitary nature of the cultures as despite surface differences there is a fundamental similarity between the Western, Islamic and Indian cultures in our world and in the world of the novel.
This of course is not surprising in our world considering how they interacted and influenced each other forever so to speak (compare to the pre-Columbian Maya, Inca, Mexica or even the North American Native cultures and see what I mean), but it stretches somewhat the suspension of disbelief in the novel With a very good ending with a TBC sign but no real cliffhangers, while having revelations and big promises for the next volume, Mage's Blood is a gripping read with lots of twists and intriguing characters so I am in for the duration. ...more
This is my second read of the book, but in a way the first really careful such as years ago in the early 00's I loaned a copy from the Romanian LibrarThis is my second read of the book, but in a way the first really careful such as years ago in the early 00's I loaned a copy from the Romanian Library in NYC but the very depressing nature of the novel made it a hard slog and I read some parts carefully and some parts fast.
The book is actually more or less a novel as it is very autobiographical and even his choice of splitting his personality into 2 characters - the philosopher and the narrator poet/diplomat and the trajectory of each is very natural as under the darkness falling on Romania, the poet at least could write his poems in private and hope to have them re-edited at some point as it actually happened though only soon after the author's death, but the philosopher was dead; in another touch the author anticipates his death near his birthday...
Now as an ebook became available for a very good price I immediately got it (when i found about it of course, the ebook may have been out there for a while..) and I took my time with the novel.
Just great style from Lucian Blaga and a superb but very dark testimony of how the darkness fell on Romania from 1944 (slowly at first, though the author is one of the lucid ones that sees clearly where August 23 will lead) till 1989
Highly, highly recommended but not an easy read as you will find yourself despairing alongside the narrator; the love stories and especially Ana Rares bring a little relief but of course we know it's temporary as the dark is there to stay for almost half a century...more
"Prima călătorie ameţitoare din viaţa mea a fost aceea prin mama. Cînd m-a văzut în braţele mătuşii, cleioasă şi cu ţeasta ascuţită, a ţipat: „Da’ e "Prima călătorie ameţitoare din viaţa mea a fost aceea prin mama. Cînd m-a văzut în braţele mătuşii, cleioasă şi cu ţeasta ascuţită, a ţipat: „Da’ e foc de urîtă!“. Mătuşa a potolit-o, şi-a pus mîinile pe capul meu şi mi l-a modelat cu atenţie. A nimerit-o. E meritul ei că mai tîrziu toţi bărbaţii pe care i-am cunoscut au vrut numaidecît să se însoare cu mine. Poate că unele lucruri ar fi fost mai puţin complicate dacă aş fi avut capul ca un ou. Aş fi acum o fată bătrînă, pe deplin împăcată. Sau neîmpăcată, dar asta n-aş recunoaşte-o nicicum."
From the beginning paragraph (above) to the blow your mind twists at the end - one (the second) maybe predictable to some extent, but the other (the first) just unbelievable and actually so foreshadowed in small details before - the book just sparkles.
The novel is a first person narration by the title character Zaira, born in 1928 and only child of a Romanian well to do ("small boyar") farmer's daughter (who lives and parties in the capital Bucharest with her many lovers) and an army officer (who is away all the time in army camps), raised on the family estate by her Catalan grandmother (the story of how she was bought at 15 by Zaira's grandfather on a business trip to Spain is one of the early highlights of the novel), her physician aunt (whose lawyer husband deserted her on the birth of their son Zizi some 20 years before Zaira's birth) and her cousin Zizi who is now the "man" of the farm after his grandfather dies - though in all important matters the grandmother "bunica" decides
Given a Persian name and growing wild with her cousin who took her with him in his daily farm business from an early age, Zaira suffers an accident when the horse she and Zizi were riding gets injured and in the process kills elder Dumitru, the crier of the estate and earns the permanent hate of his son Dumitru the younger for her family; while confined to bed like Zizi (injured too), her cousin starts making wooden characters and from there it she develops her lifelong love of marionettes and her skills that will later make her one of the most famous practitioner of such in Romania; also "the hands" will become the most important body part for her and she will judge all her men by their hands...
Anyway, the war comes, later communism, the estate is taken away and Dumitru the younger returns as the big shot communist avenger...
Later Zaira marries her childhood friend Paul (who nevertheless earlier spit on her and her family at the ritual humiliation the communists led by Dumitru forced and not only as some did it for pleasure, the estate villagers to offer Zaira's family when the communists came to take the land and evict them) but she does not like his hands and she soon leaves him for a colleague at the marionette theater, Traian who will be the love of her life but who unfortunately is also alcoholic and Zaira (justifiably) has bad memories of such...
And so it goes...
Divided into 4 parts:
"The wild (giddy, dizzy) ride begins" "Cheating men" "Escape with the cat" "An American life"
the novel is just astounding and after the twists at the end definitely requires a second reading to see how masterfully the author inserted the clues
Definitely a top 25 novel of the year and depending on how it will stay in my memory, it could be even #1...more
This is the novel of my parents generation and of the fate I thought would await me unless I could escape communist Romania - of course the regime felThis is the novel of my parents generation and of the fate I thought would await me unless I could escape communist Romania - of course the regime fell when I was 21 and I could get away and come here to the US - with vignettes from the past both pre-war and during the communist terror of the late 40's and early 50's, the main action takes place from ~1970-1980 and follows Letitia Branea's life and her marriage with Petre Arcan and her affair with Sorin Olaru, which is the mainstay of the book.
All the little details of the communist era "middle class" life are in there. Funny, sad and depressing by turns, this novel made me laugh and cry by turns and remember how utterly lucky I have been that I could escape...
Edit later: as per the comment below I add more detail:
The book is both fun and sad - at least the main part (not the historical part that takes place in the 1938-1950's) is not particularly sensational - just the daily lives of people who were reasonably privileged at least as Romania of the time went (eg had jobs in Bucharest at the main press house "Casa Scanteii" or in academia, had access to some older western magazines like an 8 month old Paris Match, had the occasional import item, the occasional trip outside) but still had to scramble for a place on the apartment list, for a place on the car/furniture list, had to suck up to the uneducated politrucs for various crumbs, etc while their lives were very limited in many other ways; the book is clearly based on the author's experiences and it shows.
The ending is of The Gone with Wind type, "tomorrow is another day' and I dearly hope Mrs. Adamesteanu will write another book telling Letitia's life in the really tough 80's decade after the 70's here and the late 50's and 60's in Drumul Egal.
There are glimpses at the post-89 Romania here and there but maddeningly (or cunningly) no hint about happens to Letitia's relationships - we just see her in 1990 talking with a colleague while protesting the Iliescu government in Piata Universitatii...
The book will be published in France in 2012 and who knows we may see an English translation too after the wonderful Wasted morning this year; fragments appeared in English in an anthology ...more
This is a superb novel but one that is not for everyone with its hallucinatory prose, uncertain and shifting identities and themes of incest, forbiddeThis is a superb novel but one that is not for everyone with its hallucinatory prose, uncertain and shifting identities and themes of incest, forbidden love, s&m, Lolita... all taking places in the ruins of Germany in 1949
Everyone encountered is not quite what he or she seems but the main characters - our "hero" HR aka Henri Robin aka many other names - his seeming double (identity and role to be revealed later), his "handler", the older German officer that is a target of assassination and the mysterious mother and daughter of the American zone in Berlin whose past and relationships with the main characters above is also slowly revealed give this novel its power in addition to the superb prose.
Highly, highly recommended and another novel that needs to be read at least twice since early happenings change or deepen their sense after later revelations so the second reading will be quite different than the first...more
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