Short & Sweet Treats discussion

"William Golding's compelling story about a group of very ordinary small boys marooned on a coral island has become a modern classic. At first, it seems as though it's all going to be great fun; but the fun before long becomes furious & life on the island turns into a nightmare of panic & death. As ordinary standards of behavior collapse, the whole world the boys know collapses with them—the world of cricket & homework & adventure stories—& another world is revealed beneath, primitive & terrible. Lord of the Flies remains as provocative today as when it was 1st published in 1954, igniting passionate debate with its startling, brutal portrait of human nature. Though critically acclaimed, it was largely ignored upon its initial publication. Yet soon it became a cult favorite among both students and literary critics who compared it to J.D. Salinger's The Catcher in the Rye in its influence on modern thought & literature. Labeled a parable, an allegory, a myth, a morality tale, a parody, a political treatise, even a vision of the apocalypse, Lord of the Flies has established itself as a classic."

This was one of the few books that I was assigned to read in school that I didn't enjoy. It'll be interesting to see if I have a different impression of it so many years later!

Currently reading this book. It will be my debut in the group. Pretty excited!

Great Deborah! Welcome!

I read this years ago. The lack of humanity was disturbing. One of the few books that I threw across the room.

I taught this book for years, and had a chance to hear William Golding speak when I was in college. The main thing he pointed out was that this was an allegory--with each of the characters representing certain aspects of humanity--both good and evil.

There is even a TED talk, with Golding speaking. http://ed.ted.com/on/Xkl7YuwA I love his voice, and I always listen to what an author has to say about his work.

Simon remains one of my favorite characters in all of literature, and Golding's powers of description are at their height when describing Simon's place in the jungle.

This may be of interest:

"Sir William Golding composed Lord of the Flies shortly after the end of WWII....

As an allegory about human nature and society, Lord of the Flies draws upon Judeo-Christian mythology to elaborate on the novel's sociological and political hypothesis. The title has two meanings, both charged with religious significance. The first is a reference to a line from King Lear, "As flies to wanton boys, are we to gods." The second is a reference to the Hebrew name Ba'alzevuv, or in its Greek form Beelzebub, which translates to "God of the Flies" and is synonymous with Satan. For Golding, however, the satanic forces that compel the shocking events on the island come from within the human psyche rather than from an external, supernatural realm as they do in Judeo-Christian mythology. Golding thus employs a religious reference to illustrate a Freudian concept: the Id, the amoral instinct that governs the individual's sense of sheer survival, is by nature evil in its amoral pursuit of its own goals.(view spoiler)[The Lord of the Flies, that is, the pig's head on a stick, directly challenges the most spiritually motivated character on the island, Simon, who functions as a prophet-martyr for the other boys. (hide spoiler)]

Published in 1954 early in the Cold War, Lord of the Flies is firmly rooted in the sociopolitical concerns of its era. The novel alludes to the Cold War conflict between liberal democracy and totalitarian communism. Ralph represents the liberal tradition, while Jack, before he succumbs to total anarchy, represents the kind of military dictatorship that, for mid-century America and Great Britain, characterized the communist system. It is also notable that Golding sets the novel in what appears to be a future human reality, one that is in crisis after atomic war. Golding's novel capitalizes on public paranoia surrounding the atom bomb which, due to the arms race of the Cold War, was at a high....

In 2005, Time Magazine named the novel one of the 100 best English-language novels since 1923."

Ross, Jeremy. A. Kimball, December 8, 2006, and A. Kissel, ed. "Lord of the Flies Background". GradeSaver, 18 August 2007 Web

I read this a few months ago, and it was one of the worst books I ever read. Even though it's a short book, I had to chop it into tiny chunks just to get through it.

I remember not liking this book much back in high school, probably put off by the horrible things that happen in it. But re-reading it many years later I was much more impressed by it and got a lot more out of it. Not that it will ever make my favourites list mind you. :-)

I've always been so curious of this book and I'm totally ready to fall in love with it!

I've always found this book interesting. I reread a few months ago before it was picked for the club read. It's disturbing but more truthful than anything I've ever read. It literally smacks you in the face with honesty. I cried when it slapped me...the first time I read it. The second time I was ready and took those punches like a champ.

I always wondered what it says about humanity and morality. I mean...The moral compasses in the novel are killed. This is something explored in a lot of tv shows and other books as well and I just can't help but be frightened by us. In any fictional story, the first person to go, when humanity/government/and the world collapses, is the person trying to be moral or the poster child of humanity lost. It gives me chills just thinking about it on a "real" level.

Thanks, Jessica--wise words, especially about the "moral compasses" being killed. Yet Golding couldn't pursue that dark road to the end--so he gives us the "deus ex machina" ending of the naval officer. (view spoiler)[ Otherwise, Ralph's head would have gone on a stick next to the pig's if Golding continued in his dark vision of humans. (hide spoiler)]

I think I'll mainly focus on the excellence of his sentences and vocabulary--those are what make the book powerful for me. And you're so right--it DOES "slap you in the face with honesty." Long before The Hunger Games or Battle Royale, Golding was asking the hard questions that arose from WWII. How could Hitler have happened? Why the Holocaust? The "darkness of the human heart" has always been with us--Golding just uses his microcosm to condense that darkness so we can face some painful truths.

As Ralph begins to explore in Chapter One, this description would give my students their first vocabulary word, "specious" (which they tended to skip over as "spacious"). "Specious" means "misleading in appearance, especially misleadingly attractive"--which will be true of the whole island, not just this pool:

"Beyond the platform there was more enchantment. Some act of God—a typhoon perhaps, or the storm that had accompanied his own arrival—had banked sand inside the lagoon so that there was a long, deep pool in the beach with a high ledge of pink granite at the further end. Ralph had been deceived before now by the specious appearance of depth in a beach pool and he approached this one preparing to be disappointed. But the island ran true to form and the incredible pool, which clearly was only invaded by the sea at high tide, was so deep at one end as to be dark green. Ralph inspected the whole thirty yards carefully and then plunged in. The water was warmer than his blood and he might have been swimming in a huge bath."

All the descriptions in chapter 1 come back in more sinister form as the story progresses--another example of Golding's careful crafting of the story.

I think this is one of those books I would have hated if I had to study to death it school but reading it for myself I found it interesting as well as horrifying. I think it was clever of Golding to show their descent into anarchy through the various deaths. From the death of the pilot (and probably other boys) from the crash, for which the boys held no blame to the point where they were commuting murder. It was horrifying.

Good point, Joy--and the first death often goes unnoticed, when the boy with the birthmark (who first mentions a "beastie") is lost to the uncontrolled fire in the second chapter. And of course it's Piggy who notices:

“That little ’un that had a mark on his face–where is–he now? I tell you I don’t see him.”
The boys looked at each other fearfully, unbelieving.
“–where is he now?”

I think that was the part that had the most impact to me. Piggy was really the only one that noticed him missing and even then it was just question. There was never a search or worry from anyone. Golding does a great job of taking 5 seconds of time but those seconds have such a huge impact on the story as a whole.

About halfway through the book I had to remind myself these are children. I often wondered how the story would have changed if girls had been involved. Would it have been just as barbaric or would they have provided a maternal emotion that would have kept some their actions at bay?

Jessica, in message 6 I mention a TED talk featuring Golding's comments on that issue: http://ed.ted.com/on/Xkl7YuwA It's a short one, but worth a listen :-)

Thanks! I will check that out.

This section at the end of Chapter 1 shows the differences in the responses of Jack, Ralph, and Simon to the "candle bushes":

"They scrambled down a rock slope, dropped among flowers and made their way under the trees. Here they paused and examined the bushes round them curiously.
Simon spoke first.
“Like candles. Candle bushes. Candle buds.”
The bushes were dark evergreen and aromatic and the many buds were waxen green and folded up against the light. Jack slashed at one with his knife and the scent spilled over them.
“Candle buds.”
“You couldn’t light them,” said Ralph. “They just look like candles.”
“Green candles,” said Jack contemptuously. “We can’t eat them. Come on.”

One middle school teachers says:

"Golding uses the boys' different responses to the interesting bush to further their characterization. Simon's open admiration for the unique qualities of the fauna reveals that he appreciates the natural world for aesthetic reasons beyond utilitarian purposes. Whereas Simon's evaluation is whimsical, Ralph's response to the candle buds is one of practicality. He evaluates their usefulness to the tribe. The reader should note that the most destructive response of all three boys comes from Jack who slashes one of the buds with his his knife, dismissing the plant immediately because the boys "can't eat them" (30). His response is really telling to the reader, because not only does it highlight Jack's potentially vicious nature, it also reveals Jack's viewpoint as a consumer--he is only interested in nature in terms of what it can provide for him."

From what I can tell, the "candle buds" are moonflowers, which do open at night:

I'm really enjoying this book. Having a 12 year old son, I can see how these characters and behaviors develop. Today, we're constantly talking about bullying and one of the things that we reinforce for our son is to be the boy who sticks up for others. Yet, I can see how easy it would be for him and others to be swayed by stronger personalities and to just stand by while others are called names or are being picked on. Golding refers to this in his writing when Ralph thinks about how they need an adult to guide them and maintain the rules.

Spoilers ahead

That was quite a read. I agree with what Julia said in the beginning of the thread: it's a difficult read, not the content, but it's written in an indescribable way that I just don't see anymore. I had to really concentrate to understand it.

More than the killings and the change in characters, the ending had the most jarring effect on me. The sudden cease of the chase at its highest point and the casual comment of the naval officer of playing games was so cutting, so cruel. It's like a storm that just disappears all of a sudden but you can still feel the danger of it just underneath the surface and in around the air. More than anything, I wonder how they will justify the cruel acts they committed, particularly Jack. I feel like Ralph might get mentally crushed under the weight of guilt and loss.

Jessica: I wonder too what it would be like if there were girls. Personally I think they would work together longer but there would be far less mingling and more clique formation, and the hostility between the groups eventually would be just as bad, if not worse.

Good points, Nidofito--and you're so right: Golding wanted us to feel "the danger of it just underneath the surface and in around the air." In fact, the naval officer who rescues them has himself been involved in WWIII (the dropping of atom bombs on Britain is why the boys were evacuated in the beginning).

And so the "beast" lies within us all, but it's those like Jack who let it take control and those who blindly follow him that are truly the Beast. Hitler's shadow hangs over this book in many ways, and our newspapers today are filled with present day "beasts".

I agree that making the island girls wouldn't change much--Golding's point in the TED talk is that HE had been a boy and man, so needed to write what he knew.

That last chapter breaks my heart, but has some of the most powerful descriptions I've ever read:

"Along the shoreward edge of the shallows the advancing clearness was full of strange, moonbeam-bodied creatures with fiery eyes. Here and there a larger pebble clung to its own air and was covered with a coat of pearls. The tide swelled in over the rain-pitted sand and smoothed everything with a layer of silver. Now it touched the first of the stains that seeped from the broken body and the creatures made a moving patch of light as they gathered at the edge. The water rose farther and dressed Simon’s coarse hair with brightness. The line of his cheek silvered and the turn of his shoulder became sculptured marble. The strange attendant creatures, with their fiery eyes and trailing vapors, busied themselves round his head. The body lifted a fraction of an inch from the sand and a bubble of air escaped from the mouth with a wet plop. Then it turned gently in the water.

Somewhere over the darkened curve of the world the sun and moon were pulling, and the film of water on the earth planet was held, bulging slightly on one side while the solid core turned. The great wave of the tide moved farther along the island and the water lifted. Softly, surrounded by a fringe of inquisitive bright creatures, itself a silver shape beneath the steadfast constellations, Simon’s dead body moved out toward the open sea."

Tammy wrote: "This was one of the few books that I was assigned to read in school that I didn't enjoy. It'll be interesting to see if I have a different impression of it so many years later!"

No, perspective hasn't changed. I still do not like the book. I'm sure I grasp the message more than I did the first time around, but it still was not an enjoyable read.

Everyone has their own tastes; it's good that there are so many types of books that everyone eventually finds something they like.

For me, this is a very special book, and I'm glad to have re-read it after I no longer had to teach it. The language and descriptions came through more for me this time.

I was assigned to read Lord of the Flies in high school and I hated it. I decided to give it another shot as an adult and I enjoyed it much more. I can not say I loved it, but I definitely appreciate the writing and the message.

I do not remember the book being so brutal in high school, which makes me believe I did not really read it back then. I do not even remember the teacher I had for the class. Sad.

Jessica: I have also been wondering if the story would be different if it was girls instead of boys on the island. I feel it would not be much different.

Julia: I love the passage you posted from the book in message 22, I kept on rereading those two paragraphs, I agree very powerful. I have a feeling I may have enjoyed the book more in school if you had been my English teacher.

I read this years ago and the impact it had was quite strong . It ripped open the wall of humanity and made me glimpse behind it , only to find out that we have not evolved that far from other primal species , only technology evolves , but without it within reach we are striped back to basics ,naked in mind and soul. Only the strong survive . The use of children is very chilling to the point its palpable . Children of a tender age balancing on the cusp of innocence . Innocence tainted with primal instinct and malevolent survival . loved it!

I upped my star rating after this third reading. It's so well written and memorable.

I see a lot of negative reviews on the book but I honestly don't understand why. This book blew me away in ways no book has ever done before. I was in shock at multiple points throughout it and after finishing it, I just sat there in shock for a moment.

I love everyone's comments on here. I definitely want to read some more about the book and do some more in depth research.

Joy: I agree with you. I feel like if I was forced to read this book in school, I would've hated it. I'm really glad I was never one of those unfortunate students.

Hmmm--as someone who taught this book for years, I'm hoping my students didn't end up "hating" it--but then I never used the old "worksheet" approach to teaching literature. We used a technique called "mind-mapping", which really appealed to them since it's a way of taking notes with drawings, done in colored pencils. Some of their mind-maps were incredible.

However, I will say what a joy it was to read it again without having to make lesson plans--the flow of Golding's writing just washed over me so powerfully.

I read the book years ago, as an adult. Gripping, disturbing, and brutal, I think the book is a true representation of human nature, and human society.
In every form of governance known to us, tyrants have, and do exist. In every group, we find a leader, and a rebel, and an easily swayed majority.

Julia: I love it when teachers veer off from the traditional worksheet/assignment type methods of teaching books! In the end, I feel like it all really depends on the teacher and how he/she teaches the material.

Already, I'm excited to someday re-read the book!

I read this book for 11th grade English and while the writing was well done, I did not care for the story much but had a great teacher who made it interesting with the discussions.

good point. I read it on my own, Kris, when I was 13. I didnt like it much. I think having a good teacher would have made a difference.

Definitely, as it is still not a fav book, and I only enjoyed the coursework around the book, lol. The cover also turned me off (the pig's head with blood dripping down). I used to keep the book in the living room.

Kris - My Novelesque Life wrote: "I read this book for 11th grade English and while the writing was well done, I did not care for the story much but had a great teacher who made it interesting with the discussions."

I had a really hard time with the subject matter. It was well written but so disturbing! I hear so much on the news about the lack of humanity and kindness in the world and about how those in power lack compassion. So when I read, I want to escape this.

Jen ƸӜƷ wrote: "Kris - My Novelesque Life wrote: "I read this book for 11th grade English and while the writing was well done, I did not care for the story much but had a great teacher who made it interesting with..."

Exactly!

Julia wrote: "Thanks, Jessica--wise words, especially about the "moral compasses" being killed. Yet Golding couldn't pursue that dark road to the end--so he gives us the "deus ex machina" ending of the naval off..."

On the contrary, I think Golding did pursue the dark road to its logical end (though yes, the ending is technically a deus ex machina) - sure, the boys have been rescued, mainly from themselves - but who's going to rescue the adult? He's a naval officer and there's a war going on, so in many ways his situation is that of the boys writ large. There's also his comment that British schoolboys should've managed better - an ironic reminder that civilisation is only ever one generation deep.

Lohengrin wrote: "Julia wrote: "Thanks, Jessica--wise words, especially about the "moral compasses" being killed. Yet Golding couldn't pursue that dark road to the end--so he gives us the "deus ex machina" ending of..."

Very true, Lohengrin, and good points regarding the dark road in Lord of the Flies.

This book is a very interesting book that I disagree with.

What is it that you disagree with, Greg?

Jen ƸӜƷ wrote: "What is it that you disagree with, Greg?"

The breakdown of society in isolation from the law seems overdone to me.

Fair enough.