RIGH TS WARNING PROCEDURE/WAIVER CERTIFICATE

For use of this form, see AR 190-30; the proponent agency is PMG
DATA REQUIRED B Y THE PRIVACY ACT
AUTHORITY:

Title 10, United States Code , Section 3012(g)

PRINCIPAL PURPOSE:

To provide commanders and law enforcement officials with means by which information may be accurately identified.

ROUTINE USES:

Your Social Security Number is used as an additional/alternate means of identification to facilitate filing and retrieval.

DISCLOSURE:

Disclosure of your Social Security Number is voluntary.

DATE f)g~
6 Aug 14

2.

LOCATION

1.

Building 268, Joint Base San Antonio, Texas 78234

NAME

5.

(Last, First. Ml)

TIME

~~B

68/D

14.
AR

FILE NO.
15- 6 Investigation

ORGANIZATION OR ADDRESS

8.

U.S. Army North

B ergdahl , Bowe R.

17.

SSN

6.

13.

XXX- XX-5187

GRADE/STATUS

Joi nt Base San Antonio, Texas 78234

E - 5/RA

PART I - RIGHTS WAIVER/NON -WA IVER CERTIFICATE

Se ction A . Rights
The investigator whose name appears below told me that he/she is with the United States Army

as an

AR

15-6 Investigating Offi cer

and wanted to question me about the following offense(s) of which I am

suspected/aeet!Sed : Absent Without Leave, Desertion, Fraudulent Enlistment
Before he/she asked me any questions about the offense(s~wever, he/she made it clear to me that I have the following rights:

1.

I do not have to answer any question or say anything.

2.
3.

Anything I say or do can be used as evidence against me in a c riminal tria1.1;4t f::,

(For personnel subject to the UCMJ) I have the right to talk privately to a lawyer before, during, and after questioning and to have a lawyer present with me
during questioning. This lawyer can be a civilian lawyer I arrange for at no expense to the Government or a military lawyer detailed for me at no expense to me.

or both. 'V~~
-or(For civilians not subject to the UCMJ) I have the right to talk privately to a lawyer before, during, and after questioning and to have a lawyer present with
me during questioning. I understand that this lawyer can be one that I arrange for at my own expense, or if I cannot afford a lawyer and want one, a lawyer

4.

will be appointed for me before any question ing begins .

If I am now willing to discuss the offense(s) under investigation, with or without a lawyer present, I have a right to stop answering questions at any time, or
speak privately with a lawyer before answering further, even if I sign the waiver below. ">V.~

5.

COMMENTS

(Continue on reverse side)

Se ction B. Waive r
I understand my rights as stated above. I am now willing to discuss the offense(s) under investigation,aAa FRaka a stateFReAt wit1:1out lallliA!l le a lawyer first a11GftiaWYaF Jl!e~~ u1iU1-ffle. ""GQ_~

~1av~

1a.

NAME

(Type or Print)

SSG Brittn ey A. Ramsey

b.

/~~1 ,rQ~,/\

ORGANIZATION OR ADDR~S AND PH01'iE (_)

Corps, Joint Base Lewis-McCh ord, W A 98433

2a.

NAME (Type or Print)

b.

ORGANIZATION OR ADDRESS AND PHONE

SIGNATURE OF INTERVIEWEE

3.

WITNESSES (If available)

:6~

'</TUR~STIGAT(/
?

TYPED NAME OF INVESTIGATOR

MG Kenneth

R.

Dahl

ORGANIZATION OF INVESTIGATOR

6.

Investigating Officer, A R 15-6 Team

Section C. Non-waiv er
1.

I do not want to give up my rights

0
2.

I want a lawyer

I do not want to be questioned or say anything

SIGNATURE OF INTERVIEWEE

ATTACH THIS WAIVER CERTIFICATE TO A NY SWORN STATEMENT (DA FORM 2823) SUBSEQUENTLY EXECUTED BY THE SUSPECT/ACCUSED

DA FORM 3881, NOV 1989

E0001

EDITION OF NOV 84 IS OBSOLETE.

APO LF v2.02ES

Privacy Act Statement

Authority:

Title 10, USC Section 301; Title 5, USC Section 2951.

Principle Purpose:

To document potential criminal activity involving the U.S. Army, and to allow
Army officials to maintain disciple, law and order through investigation of
complaints and incidents.

Routine Uses:

Information provided may be further disclosed to federal, state, local, and

foreign government law enforcement agencies, prosecutors, courts, child
protective services, victims, witnesses, the Department of Veterans Affairs, and
the Office of Personnel Management. Information provided may be used for
determinations regarding judicial or non-judicial punishment, other
administrative disciplinary actions, security clearances, recruitment, retention,
placement, and other personnel actions.

E0002

BRB 1

PERSONS PRESENT

MAJOR GENERAL KENNETH R. DAHL, INVESTIGATING OFFICER, [I/O];

MR. EUGENE FIDELL, CIVILIAN DEFENSE COUNSEL [CDC];

CAPTAIN ALFREDO FOSTER, DEFENSE COUNSEL [DC];

SERGEANT BOWE BERGDAHL, SUBJECT [SBJ];

STAFF SERGEANT BRITTANY RAMSEY, COURT REPORTER [CR].

I/O: Sergeant Bergdahl, what I'm going to do is--I'm going to

let you hold on to that [rights waiver form] and I'm going to walk

through this with you and, Gene, if you want to follow along that is

10

great as well.

11

CDC: Yes, that's great.

12

I/O: Sergeant Bergdahl, obviously I'm reading you your rights

13

warning certificate because I am the investigating officer conducting

14

an Army Regulation 15-6 Investigation.

15

investigation.

16

desertion.

17

You are the subject of that

Your suspected offenses are absent without leave and

You will also see on the form fraudulent enlistment.

In my appointment orders, which I think you saw also, it

18

asked me to examine circumstances of your short enlistment in the

19

Coast Guard, discharge from the Coast Guard, subsequent enlistment in

20

the Army, and the appropriateness of that.

21

abundance of caution, we added that one in there as well.

22

CDC: Right.

E0003

So, frankly, in the

I/O: So you are the subject of the investigation.

Those are the

suspected offenses.

Corps at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, up in Washington State.

of the country, the Pacific Northwest.

full-time job has been as the investigating officer.

official position.

He is the Director of the Army Staff, Headquarters, Department of the

Army in the Pentagon.

and I think you had a chance to see those.

10

Normally, I'm the deputy commanding general at I

But for the last 52 days, my

He is the one who signed my appointment orders

Before I ask you any questions, you must understand your

rights.

12

side it says one, two, three, four there.

13

and read through there.

14

AR 15-6 and then the suspected three offenses.

15

along and ask you one-at-a-time to initial those.

16

you any questions you must understand your rights.

If you look on the form there, you will see on the left-hand

17

I'm just going to go ahead

I just covered the investigation.

Its an

I will just read

So, before I ask

Number one, you do not have to answer my questions or say

anything.

19

Do you understand that?

20

SBJ: Yes.

21

I/O: If you would just initial number one.

22

So, that is my

I was appointed by Lieutenant General Grisoli.

11

18

Your part

[The subject did as directed.]

E0004

1
2

I/O: Number two, anything you say or do can be used as evidence

against you in a criminal trial.

Now do you understand that?

SBJ: Yes.

I/O: Okay.

6
7
8
9
10

Go ahead.

[The subject initialed the form.]

I/O: I don't mean to insult your intelligence but it's better to
be thorough up front---SBJ: Understood, sir.
I/O: Number three, you have the right to talk privately to a

11

lawyer before, during, and after questioning, and to have a lawyer

12

present with you during questioning.

13

that you arrange for at no expense to the government or a military

14

lawyer detailed for you at no expense to you or both.

15

This lawyer can be a civilian

Do you understand that?

16

SBJ: Yes.

17

I/O: Go ahead and initial number three.

18
19

[The subject did as directed.]

I/O: Finally number four, if you are now willing to discuss the

20

offense under investigation--or offenses under investigation, with or

21

without a lawyer present, you have a right to stop answering

22

questions at any time or to speak privately with a lawyer before

23

answering further, even if you signed a waiver certificate.

E0005

Do you understand that?

SBJ: Yes, sir.

I/O: So go ahead and initial number four as well.

4
5

[The subject did as directed.]

I/O: And we will move down to section B where it says waiver.

6
7

At this time are you willing to discuss the offense under

investigation and make a statement?

SBJ: Yes, sir.

I/O: So you will see right there it says, I understand my

10

rights as stated above.

I'm now willing to discuss the offense under

11

investigation and, if you would, just go ahead and lineout--just put

12

a period after, investigation where it says there.

13

SBJ: Investigation here?

14

I/O: Yeah, just put a period there.

Just go ahead and line out

15

the rest of that because that says--it doesn't apply.

That is the

16

part where it says and make a statement without talking to a lawyer

17

first.

18

end that.

19

[The subject did as directed.]

So, just go ahead and line that out and then initial at the

20

SBJ: Okay.

21

I/O: And then just go ahead over to, signature of interviewee

22

in block three there.

23

SBJ: Okay.

E0006

If you will sign that.

1
2

[The subject did as directed.]

I/O: Let me borrow the form and the pen and I will sign the

signature as investigator and I'm going to ask Sergeant Ramsey to

sign as the witness.

[Staff Sergeant Ramsey did as directed.]

6
7

I/O: That is the rights warning statement that everybody's been

asking you about for a long time.

8
9

Are you comfortable with all of that?

SBJ: Yes, sir.

10

I/O: Gene, comfortable?

11

CDC: That's great, and if at some point, if somebody could burn

12
13

a copy for our file.

I/O: Absolutely.

One last thing, and this is not something that

14

has to be signed, but this has to do with--you saw also in my

15

appointment orders that I have to address line of duty which has to

16

do with your injuries and whether or not your injuries were incurred

17

during the line of duty or not in the line of duty.

18

to make sure that this is another statement to make sure, again, in

19

an abundance of caution.

20

So I just want

I want you to know what your rights are.

This is a warning that is required before requesting

21

statements regarding disease or injury.

22

directly from the regulation, A Soldier may not be required to make

23

a statement relating to the origin, incurrence, or aggravation of his

E0007

A Soldier--and this is

or her injury.

interest made by the Soldier is invalid in accordance with 10 U.S.C.

1219.

Any involuntary statement against a Soldier's

Any Soldier prior to being asked to make any statement

relating to the origin, incurrence, or aggravation of any disease or

injury that the Soldier has suffered shall be advised of his or her

right that he or she need not make such a statement.

And that is what I am doing now.

So, do you understand

that?

10

SBJ: Yes, sir.

11

I/O: A statement voluntarily provided by the Soldier after such

12

advice may be considered.

13

statement is violated if a person, in the course of the

14

investigation, obtains the Soldier's oral statements and reduces them

15

to writing, unless the above advice was given first, which is what

16

we just did.

17

The Soldier's right not to make a

Are you straight with all of that?

18

SBJ: Yeah.

19

I/O: Are those on?

20

CR:

21

I/O: Are you all set?

22

CR:

E0008

They are, sir.

I am all set.

I/O: Okay.

We'll let you go next-door.

Again, if something

happens, just bang on the wall or come knock on the door or something

and we will stop so you can fix the technical problems, all right?

4
5

CR:

Yes, sir.

[SSG Ramsey left the interview room.]

I/O: Alright, we got that out of the way.

Good.

What I would like to do, obviously, is to hear your story.

You know, 52 days into this and you both had a chance to take a look

at the 15-6 that was done back in June of 2009.

You will recall

10

General Scaparrotti, at the time, was the two-star general in charge

11

of the 82nd Airborne Division.

12

officer, at the time, was Lieutenant Colonel Horton, he was the

13

Provost Marshal Officer.

14

and then RC-East at the time.

15

officer.

16

job.

17

particularly under the circumstances.

18

hindsight, a much more sterile environment, a lot more patience, so

19

you will also recall--and I thought correctly, General--Colonel

20

Horton and General Scaparrotti both ended that 15-6 saying, We

21

really can't draw any conclusions.

22

information, but until we have an opportunity to talk to the

He appointed the investigating

He was basically the senior MP in the 82nd

He appointed him as the investigating

He did the best he could.

I think he did a pretty good

He did as thorough of a job as he could have at the time,

E0009

We have the benefit of 20-20

Weve collected a whole bunch of

individual himself, then PFC Bergdahl, weve just got to stop this

here.

It's great that youre home.

Welcome home.

I have mentioned this to you

before.

there is an opportunity to hear your story.

continues, essentially.

investigate as well.

Colonel Horton left off, pickup were General Scaparrotti left it, and

to hear your story.

10

Everybody is glad that you're home.

And now

So, the investigation

I have been asked a couple other things to

So, that's my job.

My job is to pick up where

Let me just start by leaving it open ended like that and

11

ask you to relax, get comfortable.

You have to be eager and anxious

12

to tell your story.

13

you have been home and this is one of the things you haven't been

14

talking about, at least not a lot.

15

and I will turn it over to you.

I know you've been doing a lot of talking since

So here's an opportunity for you

16

CDC: Relax.

17

I/O: Yes, absolutely.

18

CDC: You look tense.

19

I/O: Take as much time as you want.

20

Relax.
You can lean back and

relax.

21

SBJ: If I lean back, it hurts my back.

22

I/O: Oh, does it?

23

SBJ: No, this is all right.

E0010

Would you prefer to sit here?

1
2

I/O: I am perfectly comfortable sitting in either place.

youre more comfortable here, Im serious.

3
4
5

So, if

SBJ: Its the backwards motion; it puts too much pressure on my

back.

Forward is a little easier.

I/O: If you want to stand, you can stand.

and stretch, you can stretch.

experience.

the press yesterday.

finding mission.

If you want to get up

This is not intended to be a miserable

Its not an interrogation as the professor mentioned in

This is an informal investigation; its a fact

As I have been telling people for 52 days, as I

10

have been interviewing and talking to a whole bunch of people, as I

11

mentioned to you, I have talked to friends, I have talked to family,

12

I have talked to platoon mates.

13

I am doing is collecting as much information as I possibly can and I

14

am sorting it out into piles.

15

speculation, and garbage?

16

between, which isnt necessarily fact, but there is enough people who

17

feel that way that there is a preponderance that comes together.

18

its not fact and its not fiction, but its somewhere in the middle.

19

And obviously it the fact that matters the most and what will help

20

me to make my findings and then my recommendations.

21

you have the greatest amount of information than any of us, than

22

anybody, certainly the most credible.

E0011

I begin by telling them, Look, all

Whats fact?

Whats rumor, and

You know, and then whats the stuff in

So,

So, obviously,

I also recognize and I have told this same thing to other

people I have interviewed; its been five years, okay.

expect you to have perfect memory.

people I have spoken to have perfect memory.

varied slightly from the original statement that they made five years

ago.

five years ago is better than what their memory is today.

certainly see it that way.

statement from them as well, its the original statement that I think

I can tell you that none of the

All of their statements

Whats important about that, as I suspect, someones memory

I

And even though I collect a sworn

10

has the greatest credibility.

11

catching you.

12

nothing in my pocket but my pen.

13

comfortable.

14

your stuff.

15

this.

16

I dont

So, dont feel like this is about

Were not playing guess whats in my pocket.

Theres

Gene is absolutely right; get

And youre a good story teller.

Youre a good story teller.

I have read some of

So youre pretty good at

So get comfortable and share with us.

SBJ:

I understand.

Just a question: is there a specific point

17

where you want to start because it's rather--if you want the story,

18

it doesn't just start that day.

19

any----

20
21

It starts long before that just like

I/O: Sure, does it start before you joined the Army or does it
start when you joined the Army?

22

SBJ: I'd say it probably started before I joined the Army.

23

I/O: Okay, I'm fine.

E0012

You can go ahead and start there.

10

1
2
3
4

Questions by the investigating officer:

Q.

Tell me as much as you need to tell me about before you

joined the Army that informs, you know, the story.

A.

Just a very brief touch upon the way I was raised.

I was

home schooled so I didn't--I wasn't raised in a very social

environment and my parents raised me in a very strict, very religious

setting.

religion.

military, he was very--his mindset was very military.

Obviously the Christian religion is a very ethical, moral

My father, despite the fact that he was never in the
He raised me

10

knowing how to shoot weapons.

I have probably been doing that since

11

I was two to three years old.

So that has--the weapons and the very

12

strict and very ethical environment that I was raised in was the most

13

prominent theme throughout my life.

14

house to be in.

15

However, it wasn't the best

So, what happened was--you mentioned the Coast Guard, yes.

16

Prior to the Coast Guard I had joined--I went to France to join the

17

French Foreign Legion.

18

was--Ill be honest, it was an adventurous sounding idea.

19

always wanted to travel and I have always wanted to learn languages.

20

And I have always had that interest of expanding my experience and

21

understanding of the world.

22

Paris.

23

physical on me and they told me because of my eyes they wouldn't take

The reason for the French Foreign Legion

Unfortunately, I went all the way to

I went to the fort and I tried to check-in.

E0013

I have

11

They did a

me, which was honestly, kind of, a little bit of relief because by

the time I got over there it was way overwhelming.

didn't speak any French or anything like that.

Honestly, I was relieved.

Q.

You gave it a try but--yes.

A.

Yes, I gave it a try.

Q.

You get credit for giving it a try.

I was relieved.

Sergeant Bergdahl, was

this before or after the Coast Guard?

9
10

I was there.

A.

It should have been before, 2005.

Forgive me if I'm--dates

and times have always been a weak point.

11

Q.

So it was 2005, before the Coast Guard.

12

A.

I went back home.

And I have always enjoyed the idea of

13

traveling, so I did a little traveling.

I have always wanted to make

14

a difference.

15

because it has a good paycheck.

16

going to get a job because it looks prestigious.

17

I can see my effort and see that I am making a difference.

18

wandering around, yes, that is a lot of fun but the reason why I was

19

wandering around was because I was looking for what I was going to

20

do.

21

options that everyone else knew about. I was very ignorant in that

22

sense.

23

and how to get it, and how to

I am not the type of person that is going to get a job

I'm not the type of person that is
I want a job where
So

Because of my education I didn't exactly have the same amount of

[The information I lacked,] it was what the world offered,

E0014

start in that direction.

12

Growing up the

way I grew up, I also lacked the understanding of how to move through

society. I am more comfortable in the mountains.

mountains.

horses; that is what I grew up doing.

So when I got out in the world and I started trying to get jobs in

cities, it was a little overwhelming.

loved the ocean and the Coast Guard is a very--in my mind, it has a

very extremely prestigious, honorable mission on American soil.

home defense and every day they are out there saving lives.

I grew up in the

You know, wandering around following cats, and dogs, and

That was my main experience.

So, finally, I decided that I

10

Q.

I agree with you.

11

A.

So I wanted to--that was what I wanted to do.

So, I went.

12

I joined.

13

myself, basically.

14

to burden my friends with over-necessary drama or anything like that.

15

Plus, being raised as a Soldier type environment--or in a Soldier

16

type environment, the idea is you pull your own weight.

17

that I wanted to join the Coast Guard, so I joined the Coast Guard.

18

At this time I wasn't talking to my parents.

Its

I was by

I had a few friends but I'm not the one who likes

So I decided

One thing that has always got me is it's always different--

19

you can plan things out, and you can think about things, but actually

20

executing and getting into it is completely different.

21

fully simulate what the actual experience is going to be like.

22

went through the Coast Guard MEPS and I got to Coast Guard basic.

23

And I understood their mission, but it didn't hit home until I got

E0015

13

You can never

I

there and I was listening to what the drill sergeants were saying,

and I was seeing the pictures, and I was hearing the actual stories,

and I was literally there.

intense and important their mission was.

That was when it struck on exactly how

I didn't have the typical support that someone would have;

the friend support, the family support.

I never got--when I was in

basic I never got letters, which when you're in that kind of

environment--and Coast Guard Boot Camp is--they run things

traditionally in the sense that the drill sergeants get in your face,

10

they yell, they scream, they don't swear at you anymore, but they can

11

still portray that amount of aggression.

12

across.

13

continuously pressuring you, so it's a very intense environment for a

14

reason.

15

with--despite my travels, I always travel in a very low profile way

16

and minimal interaction with people, because that's how I was raised

17

as a child.

18

listening than by interacting with people or by being the one who

19

talks.

20

the sidelines and watch and listen to what was going on, and then

21

think about it.

22

view of the whole situation.

23

right in your face.

They can still get that

They will stress you out; fire drills at night.

They are

And, basically, the personal issues of what I was dealing

And what I learned as a kid was, you learn more by

So because of what my childhood was, I learned to stand on

E0016

When I got into the Coast Guard that put me smack in

They werent off to the side; they were

You were right there in the focal point and

14

every action you were doing was pressured and it was watched.

ended up happening was, I ended up having a panic attack, about three

weeks into it.

happened.

everyone was going down for roll call.

me to the hospital.

psychiatrist--there was a couple people that were there.

in and asked me some questions.

about--I was trying to say, basically, I cant save these people.

10

Because the pressure was, honestly, all the way up until that point,

11

the information I was getting from my family, especially my dad, was

12

that I cant succeed in anything, that I am a failure.

13

got to--that never played a part until I got to that point in my life

14

and I was looking around and I had seen what I was supposed to do as

15

a team member.

16

them.

17

keep [sic-have] their back.

18

Guard basic was me and what I know of me as a failure.

19

I am responsible for someone elses life.

20

pressure and thats what kind of brought about the panic attack and

21

thats when I did my best.

22

that to whoever was talking to me.

23

ended up--I think he was a psychiatrist because he ended up having me

Again, I dont have a good recollection of what

I just remember that it came about one evening when

What happened was, they got

And, in those moments, I think it was a

They came

And I believe I said something

These people are in this ocean.

My team members are next to me.

E0017

What

So, when I

We have to save

They are relying on me to

So, the pressure that was in that Coast

And suddenly

So that added to the

I mean, I think I did my best to convey

What they ended up doing was they

15

sign something.

After that, that [panic attack] is what dropped me

from--I got an uncharacterized discharge from the Coast Guard.

Q.

Okay.

A.

Now getting out of that, hindsight, I was relieved because

looking back at what had happened to me, I wasnt ready for that.

So

it was probably a good thing.

I never liked that.

settled.

to that yet because I needed, obviously, from what I saw there, was I

However, that never sat well with me.

The fact that I had failed at that, never

It never left my mind.

However, I wasnt going to go back

10

needed to build myself on more experience and a better understanding

11

of such social interaction in that type of environment.

12

I went back to--I think better when I move.

13

exercise or when I work.

14

better when Im sweeping than I do sitting there watching--doing

15

nothing.

16

time kind of focusing on dance.

17

focusing on dancing was because that put me in an environment that

18

forced me to actually interact on a social level that I was never

19

used to.

20

girls didnt exist to me until I turned 17.

21

They never existed to me until I got to that point.

22

that kind of a relationship.

23

on that.

E0018

I think better when I

I grew up [doing] hard labor.

I moved around.

After that,

I traveled around.

I think

I went--spent a lot of

One of the reasons why I was

Because growing up in the household that I grew up in,

Or, yeah, 16 or 17.
Yeah, basically,

So, I understood that I needed to work

16

A lot of guidance that I got from the eastern philosophies

of Samurai, like Aikido Bushido.

I got a lot of guidance from Zazen,

which is a mental exercise.

Its literally a mental exercise that basically teaches you how to

control your mind or how to understand how it moves so that you can

understand how to work it.

Lee is a very prominent figure in my mind when it comes to like--a

role model I guess.

Its meditation.

Its not religious.

I got a lot of guidance from that.

Q.

He is buried up in a cemetery in Seattle, by the way.

10

A.

Is he?

11

Q.

He is.

Bruce

I went to--I was a guest speaker at the Japanese-

12

American Veterans Day.

Second generation Japanese Americans, and I

13

went to this fabulous cemetery in Seattle and I discovered Bruce Lee

14

was buried there.

15

A.

Northwest.

16

Q.

Yeah, it is a different place.

17

So, you went to dancing because, really, you were trying to

18

sort of stretch yourself.

19

social setting.

You were putting yourself in more of a

20

A.

Exactly.

21

Q.

You realized what some of your limitations were and were

22

looking for ways to grow.

E0019

17

A.

Yes.

And what I learned from eastern philosophy was, if

youre afraid of something, face it.

If there is something youre

not good at then that is what you need to work on.

Miyamoto Musashi, he was, I believe, one of Japans most famous

samurai because he won more bouts--or more duels than anyone else.

He was also known for being an artist.

because, he said that every samurai that practiced the way of the

sword also needed to practice the way of the artist, the way of

poetry, the way of anything because what you learn in one, will

The samurai

And the reason for this was

10

benefit you in the other.

11

brushstrokes are very much like a swordsmens stroke.

12

what he learned was how to articulate the paint brush, was also--he

13

installed into how he articulated the tip of his sword or the edge of

14

his sword.

15

you needed to face it and you needed to focus on it.

16

understood that expanding into in many areas as possible, whether

17

its philosophy, or whether it is mathematics, science, whether it is

18

arts, or religion, or whatever.

19

going to benefit you by just expanding your horizons or expanding

20

your understanding of the overall picture because everybody--I would

21

be a small detail but I live in the greater picture or machine you

22

could say; a small part inside of a machine.

23

because you are a small part you still need to understand how the

E0020

You will see it in his drawings, his

And literally,

I understood that if you had a weak point somewhere that

And I also

Any subject that you go through is

18

So, you know, just

whole thing works.

I knew I lacked that understanding from my

experience in the Coast Guard.

lacked that understanding and that ability.

It was a very good example of I

Q.

Okay.

A.

So from the years of the Coast Guard up until the point

that I joined the Army was basically me trying to come up with the

way of dealing with my lacking of experience and knowledge in these

areas.

naturally took to so I have a tendency of, a lot of people say

A lot of time thinking.

Philosophy was something that I

10

over-thinking things, which is true.

11

kind of use it as a way of running simulations.

12

imagination from the way I grew up.

13

passed where I got uncomfortable again with not doing something that

14

was making a difference, as well as it continued to stay in my mind

15

that I failed Coast Guard boot camp.

16

the Coast Guard, Cape May, the day I left and they shipped me out, a

17

thought occurred to me and it stayed in my mind whenever I thought

18

about the Coast Guard.

19

wanted to fix that.

20

a simulated idea was, one, the Army being stressed for needing people

21

would--because I heard somebody in basic who was also getting

22

discharged, that an uncharacterized discharge, you could still

23

reenlist.

E0021

I have a very visual mind so I

I have a very good

So, finally, enough time had

It was basically the day I left

And that thought was, as I was leaving, I

One of the ideas I came up with in my mind, like

That was one of the things that the Coast Guard people
19

said, "You got discharged from basic.

We did not say you cannot come

back.

I was leaving [Coast Guard] to basic, I was like--because the Army is

more of what I'm used to; the military structure. And it has to do

with weapons.

majority of when youre a Seaman, I mean, when you're first starting

out, you're on the Ocean dealing with ships, as well as their mission

is completely different than a military mission.

military mission] was more--it wasnt like [the Coast Guards

You can come back with an uncharacterized discharge.

So when

Whereas the Coast Guard, it has its elements, but the

The Army [is a

10 mission]--I could have gone to the Marines but the Marines were, I
11

felt, that was more of an extreme commitment.

12

they train, the way they think, and the way they move is on a

13

completely different level.

14

Army was basically American citizens doing the duty of a military--of

15

the military mission.

16

everyone told me I should have gone into the Marines, but I knew that

17

that was like--one, it was a much--the time commitment to the Marines

18

felt to me, would have been a lot longer.

19

that I thought of was, I could go into the Army, do the years--what I

20

ended up doing was a three-year contract, three years of active duty.

21

Prove that I [can do it]--get the experience and prove that just

22

because I failed here[in the Coast Guard], I can make it here [in

23

military service].

E0022

The Marines, the way

Thats what they take pride in.

The

The reason why I didnt go into the Marines,

So the idea was, the idea

Basically, going into the Army, I would

20

have something to prove.

I would have a reason to drive myself

through it and make myself succeed.

the Coast Guard and that didnt sit well with me, so driving through

that, there was that motivation [to succeed in the Army].

I saw what happened in basic in

Q.

Sure.

A.

So, that thought had occurred to me and it basically kind

of stewed, for lack of a better description, until--for the years,

until I got to the point where I was like, okay.

time.

Later 22, yeah.

10 started to get to me.

I was 22 at the

It was the spring of 2009.

That was when it

As I said, I always think better moving so

11 during that springtime, I was on my motorcycle---12

Q.

13

CDC: 2008.

14

A.

15

2009 or 2008?

Sorry, 2008.

Like I said, dates are a terrible thing.

So, 2008, in that spring, I was riding my motorcycle around

16 and I rode my motorcycle to an Army recruiter.

17 asked him--I wanted to go for Army scouts.

I went in there and I

That was my--what is what

18 I wanted to do is just because their mission was more what I wanted.

19 It was more oriented--it was kind of more oriented in my thinking.
20

Q.

Sure.

21

A.

Yeah.

22

Q.

Yeah.

23

A.

Unfortunately [for me at the time, because the recruiter

24

I could see that.

told me there were no slots available due to everybody wanting to be

E0023

21

a scout], it is also more of a prestigious thing and the recruiters,

and I knew this at the time, the recruiters main goal is to get them into

the infantry because that is where they needed the manpower. All the other

ones, like the Ranger schools, and the scouts, and all those guys were for

the really, you know, those were the prestigious ones that--it is what it is.

So, I kind of--being young, not being patient, I got there, he said, Sorry,

we--he got me through the first stages of paperwork and then when he got to

MEPS where you are supposed to pick what you are going--your MOS is going to

be and like your years you are going to serve.

When he got there he was

10 like, Oh, we dont have any Army scouts until like next year.
11 have any slots open.

But, we have only three slots left in the infantry and

12 those are going to go really fast.

13 through it.

We dont

I was like, All right, just get me

Get me to basic because I dont like wasting time.

So they did

14 that, they did three years, and they got me into basic. Before, as I was
15 prepping, as I was waiting for my ship date to basic, I wanted to do a
16 little [research into what I should be expecting and looking for]--I went to
17 some friends I knew and asked them, because they had been prior military.
18 They werent friends-friends.

They were just acquaintances that I knew that

19 Were prior military, but they were people that I would respect their
20 opinion and respect how they lived their lives.
21

Q.

You were comfortable asking and valued their opinion?

22

A.

Yeah.

23

Q.

Okay.

E0024

22

A.

I asked them what I needed to look for as far as

leadership, as far as how I should perceive a good unit, because I

have heard enough stories about what happens.

get into a bad group or you get into a good group, its going to make

a difference.

they gave me was, You know a good leader because they are actually

leaders.

concept of leadership, and it goes back into historical times, the

reason why they were called leaders was because they were the ones

In any situation you

So I asked them, and one of the pieces of advice that

A leader stands in front of you, not above you.

The

10

that lead you into battle.

11

because all of the men around them recognized that they were leaders

12

and that was what brought them together.

13

military, the traditional military idea is a spear point or a wedge

14

and the leader is up front.

15

are going to see in the modern day Army is a pyramid.

16

point that is directed towards battles.

17

You got the guy on top and then you are going to be a private and you

18

are going to be on the bottom.

19

to deal with a lot of bullshit, but dont worry about--dont worry

20

too much about whats above you, worry about whats immediately above

21

you as far as your platoon sergeant, as far as your team leaders, as

22

far as your men around you.

23

Remember, a real leader is one who is going to understand that you

E0025

The reason why leaders became leaders was

What they told me was the

They told me, unfortunately, what you

Not a spear

It is going to be pyramid.

They said that you are going to have

That was the focus.

23

They said,

give respect to earn respect and respect is given to those who have

earned it.

going into a battlefield.

have disagreements with some people, but you are on a team.

do--you know, that is your job, the success of the team.

they said, The difference between just a regular team and a military

unit is the fact that the orders that you are receiving are literally

gambling your life in a battlefield.

to watch for is exactly how clear minded and how aware and what the

What else did he say? The idea was basically, Youre

Just like any team sport, you are going to
So, you

However,

So they said, What you need

10

priorities are of the people who are giving you those orders.

It

11

was--he said the reason why there is an open door policy was because

12

the checks and balances to that system is, understanding that the

13

Soldiers who are putting their lives on the line need to have that

14

option.

15

Q.

Sure.

16

A.

They need to be able to bring up issues to their

17

commanders.

18

many words, basically said, You are there to do a job for the team,

19

for the success of the team.

20

member is to make sure that the well-being of your teammates is

21

foremost.

22

history of militaries you are going to find that life was extremely

23

cheap, in the sense that the Soldiers.

E0026

So that what he and others I talked to, basically, in so

However, your duty as part of that team

Its very interesting and sad, but if you look at the

24

I mean, literally thrown at

enemies.

The cost of life was huge.

You saw that in World War II

and you saw that in World War I with the trench warfare.

literally leaders looking at these game boards and saying, Lets put

a piece here.

there was going to be casualties but that was just part of the game.

Life back then was very cheap.

However, that piece was a platoon.

It was

And they knew

Nowadays with modern warfare, its interesting.

to say that the majority of Americas finances to the military is for

safety equipment.

10

MRAPS are extremely expensive.

You want

The body armor is

extremely expensive.

11

Q.

Right.

12

A.

And it also fatigues the Soldiers a lot; however, it is

13

there for the reason of safety.

So you are sacrificing the agility,

14

speed, and endurance for what is--has been perceived as the

15

difference between putting a Soldier with no body armor and the

16

difference between putting a Soldier with body armor.

17

over time what the difference is going to be, so minimizing [loss of] life.

They have seen

18

Q.

Force protection and the difference in the value of life.

19

A.

Yeah.

20

Q.

We are willing to accept some of the negative side of all

21

this protection because we value a life more than we did before.

22

used to just throw folks in the trenches.

E0027

25

We

A.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So theres more of a focus on the

preservation of Soldiers lives as individuals, the privates.

Lets

preserve that and focus on that instead of just throwing them at

whatever.

at whatever cost its going to take.

Instead of just focusing on the end result, lets win this

Q.

Right.

A.

So that was what I went into basic training with; this

mindset that, one, yes, I was there for a team, but as a member of a

team and as an American citizen, it was my duty to make sure that--

10

because I am--unfortunately the Army has, I dont want to say a

11

reputation, but it is understand that there are a lot of

12

undesirable agendas, personal agendas, that find their way into

13

certain areas of the levels of command.

14

had to be careful of.

15

All it takes is a sergeant or an officer who has a personal agenda of

16

their own, and they are just that kind of a person, and it will

17

basically come down on everyone else.

18

the military, The shit falls downhill.

19

So that was something you

That was one of the things that they told you.

The shit will, as they say in

So I got into basic and I was extremely lucky to get what I

20

would consider--up until recently, my senior drill sergeant was

21

someone I would consider the man who deserved that patch on his chest

22

because thats what he was.

He wasnt a sergeant first class because

23

of that patch on his chest.

He was a sergeant first class because

E0028

26

that is what his character was. I didnt see it in basic, but I saw it

in my unit and that is the fact that this [the patch] is all that was on the

uniform.

at NTC. I saw it a lot in pogues [person other than grunt, a Soldier not

serving in a combat arms mission MOS] unit.

The person was hiding behind it.

I saw that too often, especially

Sorry, in other MOSs.

Q.

Yeah.

Sure.

A.

It was all about this, but the person behind it was

nothing.

It was about, I spent years, or I knew somebody above.

Or whatever, brown-nosers, whatever it was that got them there.

It

10

was--that was all that was there and they were hiding behind that.

11

They didnt deserve [the rank].

12

you were supposed to do but if you look at the person behind it, they

13

have--they dont have the experience.

14

They dont have that ability.

15

training because that senior drill sergeant was what an NCO should

16

be.

17

believe thats what he had us do.

18

Soldiers Creed.

19

Sergeant Creed.

20

what I am going to do.

21

look at Hollywood and you see a drill sergeant yelling and screaming,

22

and whatever.

23

yelling and he did some things [like the Coast Guard], but he was the type

If you look at that you have to do what

They dont have that respect.

I was lucky when I got to basic

If you look at the NCO creed thats what he was, in fact, I

E0029

He didnt just have us look at the

He said, Here is the NCO Creed.

Here is the Drill

You need to look at these things because this is

My basic training wasnt Hollywood.

And it wasnt like Coast Guard boot camp.

27

If you

He did some

of person that would say, Okay, stop what you are doing, and he would say,

Lets fix this.

and you have to do this and you have to get it done in this amount of

time and get down there in this amount of time.

we didnt do that then there would be some--there would be--

obviously, he would call it to our attention by doing push-ups or

whatever, doing the basic training thing.

screaming at us.

He put pressure on us by saying that you have to do this

And we did that.

It wasnt yelling and

It was talking us through and teaching us.

Q.

Right.

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

Do you really?

13

A.

Yes, it was Sergeant First Class Olivera.

14

Q.

I bet you remember his face, too.

15

A.

Yeah.

16

Q.

A good experience?

17

A.

It was a great experience.

18

Q.

This was someone you really respected.

10

There was a purpose to it.

Do you remember his

name?

A good leader, right?

The type of leader

19

that your buddies before were telling you that it was the type of

20

leader--thats a responsible leader.

21

the leadership sense that you described earlier.

22
23

If

A.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Thats someone whos leading in

My time in basic, if you would have asked

me in basic, Would you follow that man onto the battlefield?

E0030

28

would have followed him anywhere because I knew that he was that

person that you could follow and you could trust.

that you wanted to support; you wanted to be behind; you wanted to

take his orders because that was what he was.

He was that person

Q.

Sure.

A.

Unfortunately, basic kind of turned into a dream.

I got to

my first unit and the first thing they taught me there was you need

to learn how to acquire things.

Soldiers and my immediate sergeants.

This was handed down to me by

Basically, You need to learn

10

how to steal from other Soldiers because they are going to steal from

11

you and you need to lock everything up because-- Drill Sergeant

12

Olivera taught us that in basic, Lock everything up because there

13

are a lot of thieves in the Army.

14

when I first got to my basic--or when I first got to my unit, that

15

was the first thing that they told me.

16

steal because they are going to steal from you.

I thought it was--the fact that

You need to learn how to

17

Q.

This wasnt AIT?

This was up in Alaska?

18

A.

Yeah, this was up in Alaska.

19

Q.

The 1st of the 501st?

20

A.

Yeah, the 1st of the 501st, that I was going to deploy

21

with.

When they told me that, the first thing that came into my mind

22

was, How am I supposed to go onto a battlefield if I cant even

23

trust these guys here?

E0031

Now, I understood that they were just giving

29

me general advice.

They werent saying that, We are going to steal

from you.

of the situation.

correctly, literally, a few weeks, possibly even less, before they

deployed to NTC to do training because they were deploying to

Afghanistan within the months, I was literally doing in-processing

and then doing NTC.

everywhere around me I heard, Stupid Joe.

a lot of other bad language, but all of this was simply because of

They were just simply stating that that was the reality
I literally got to my unit, if I can remember

When I got to NTC, my experience there was

Dumb Joe.

I can go into

10

their rank.

Not because they were being bad, not because they were

11

doing something wrong, simply because of their rank.

12

continuous theme.

13

saw sergeants--I mean, the whole point of NTC is to get us ready to

14

go to a battlefield.

15

twelve hours straight, sitting there doing nothing.

16

TCPs that were put up on the main post road, ordered by I believe the

17

batt commander, but the sergeant who is overseeing our training was

18

telling us, Youre not supposed to even have a TCP on the main post.

19

Thats against the main post regulations or whatever.

20

sitting there on this TCP that everybody, all the civilians coming

21

into work are having to drive around because we arent supposed to be

22

there.

23

is training?

I continuously saw that in NTC.

And what did we do?

We were sitting there for hours.

E0032

We did a raid on a town.

30

That was a

I continuously

We idled in a HMMWV for

We went on to

So we are

And I was just like, This

We did one walk-through of a

town and that was it.

It was like close quarters combat, we were in

Iraq.

populated, but it was still there.

is one of our jobs.

basic training.

village.

walkthrough was an assault, supposedly.

supposed to be a patrol of a town and I believe a COB.

Literally, maybe less than 20 minutes for our walkthrough/assault,

In Afghanistan, maybe not so much because it was not as

Of course, close quarter combat

What training did we get?

We got a few hours in

We get to NTC and we get one walkthrough of a

And the next day we do one patrol through the village.

The

And then our patrol was

That was it.

10

and then maybe less than 45 minutes for our patrol.

11

that was like, okay, that is beyond a private first class as far as

12

understanding why.

13

I dont know.

14

me, they were playing games.

15

sergeant had his laptop.

16

to put our cell phones in our bags because we werent supposed to

17

have them at NTC and we are supposed to focus on our training.

18

you have these sergeants with their laptops and you see them playing

19

World of War Craft or something like that.

20

sergeants who have their cell phones out and one of them, leaving

21

nameless, had a smart phone.

22

video games on his cell phone.

23

because they are supposed to be training.

E0033

What I saw was--

Maybe theres a logistic problems or something.

Then what I saw was, the sergeants that were around

They were playing video games.

One

We were ordered, the privates were ordered

Then

You have the other

And you see him in the tents playing

Privates are supposed to stand-by

31

Usually what it was, was

being tasked out to clean up.

to train as a Soldier and I spent the majority of my time cleaning

up; picking-up cigarette butts and trash, or sorting through brass.

It was fantastic.

I came down to NTC

Now, when I got to NTC, they designated me as the SAW-

gunner.

My one-hundred rounds in basic training on a tripod does not

prepare me for understanding the sight system and firing abilities of

the SAW.

Here is the SAW.

deploy me to a war-zone, you need to train me.

So, at NTC they say, You are going to be the SAW-gunner.

I dont know how to use this weapon.

You want to

Oh, dont worry, you

10

are going to go through courses at NTC.

11

carried that SAW.

12

and then I am supposed to practice.

13

kind of a FRAGO and I fire maybe 50 rounds at an 800 meter target,

14

which, thankfully [referring to what I learned from upbringing]--nobody told

15

me how to do it [referring to my training at NTC], but thankfully, I know

16

enough from my upbringing to know--because it had tracers.

17

to be able to actually put bullets down over the target. It took me about

18

10 minutes. I was doing that for 10 minutes and then suddenly they call the

19

SAWs off and say, Sorry, you guys cant do this today.

20

wrong.

21

happening was, there was a day where we were taken to a live firing range.

22

There were no targets anywhere-- everybody said, Heres your ammunition.

23

Go up onto the berms.

They take me to a firing range.

Okay, fine.

E0034

All right, fine.

So I

I sight in my SAW

For some reason, theres some

Is it going to be rescheduled?

I knew enough

Theres something
What ended up

Go up onto the towers, and face out to the range.

32

We all get out there and I am looking for targets. Im looking for where I

can practice, for where I can see, because at that point I still dont know

how that thing is going to fire at a full rate of fire or cyclic fire.

So I am looking for where the targets are that I can line up on so

that I can understand what I am doing.

an order.

order to start firing.

Just start firing.

firing?

Next thing I know, they get

The sergeant that was up in the tower with us gets the

I go, What are we firing at?

He said,

I asked, What do you mean just start

He is like, Just burn through your ammunition.

So

10

thats what I was supposed to do.

Everybody goes live and basically

11

what we had was literally, it had to have been, a half-hour to 45

12

minutes of guys burning up ammunition.

13

anything.

14

simulating an attack means when there is someone attacking you, you

15

need to be putting down direct fire.

16

to be doing was spraying bushes with bullets.

17

to pick a bush and to try and fire at it.

18

on the day fire.

19

fire.

20

others near our tracers.

21

of firing ammunition.

22

cycled everything, but the SAWs literally had 10 minutes of firing

23

out into the darkness.

There was no structure to

It was just supposed to simulate an attack.

Well

Literally, all we were supposed

I made the discernment

They wasted the ammunition

The night fire came and we wasted fire on the night

We didnt even--we had some targets out there but there was no

E0035

We had maybe--the SAWs had maybe 10 minutes

Everybody else was--they cycled the M2s.

They

So a month of training and a month of seeing

33

how the sergeants, how my platoons immediate command was behaving.

I was literally looking at platoon lieutenants--there was one moment

where, in our fake patrol, when another platoon apprehended hostiles

or whatever it was and they needed to take them in for questioning.

One of the privates doesnt know what he was supposed to do, because

he was supposed to be role playing, but at the same time he was not.

So, something happened.

the private brought him back and the lieutenant was like, I want a

bag [on his head] and I want his face duct taped and I want him handcuffed.

One of the hostages tried to walk away but

10

Because what you are supposed to do in role playing is hand them the

11

handcuffs and he understands that he is bound.

12

had done.

13

duct taped, and bound and the sergeant who was overseeing the

14

training was like, He understands what you mean--what happens when

15

he is handed the bindings.

16

over the fact that he is the lieutenant and he is giving an order.

17

So then he gets all pissy about that and basically the whole patrol

18

kind of falls apart after that.

19

standing there waiting, What do I do?

20

back into the tent.

21

started going back to the tent.

22

He goes, You need to stand by for accountability.

23

have just been told to go back.

E0036

So, that is what they

The lieutenant was literally demanding that he be bagged,

And the lieutenant was throwing a fit

We all got back to the COB.

I am

My squad sergeant says, Go

We are done for now.

I turned around and

The lieutenant is standing there.

I said, Sir, I

He was like, How about you do as

34

you are told?

How about that?

I was like, I am doing what I am

told.

need to get your accountability.

whining about the fact that, You needed to stand by and we get

accountability, and you need to do what you are told, because I am in

charge here.

befitting what a lieutenant should be conducting himself in that [situation].

But, there was just this--he didnt stop me and say, Hey, we
He stopped me and literally was

And it was his attitude that just was completely not

Q.

Was that your platoon leader or someone else?

A.

That was, I believe, third platoons lieutenant.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

During the entire NTC, I got a taste of what was going on.

12

I was going, All right, things are very lax.

But, you know, it was

13

moving along in a military manner either way.

14

class.

15

it is trying to keep up with things because I just got there and there

16

are other guys there who had been through Iraq.

17

keep up.

18

down.

19

do--what the platoon sergeant does, what the lieutenant does, what

20

the squad sergeant does, thats their sector, not mine.

21

was my SAW, my equipment, my thermal, my belongings, my sector of

22

fire, and my duty in whatever position of the squad I was in.

I was a private first

I am not supposed to be saying anything.

I am just trying to pull my weight.

Im overwhelmed as

So, I am trying to
I am keeping my head

I am just letting things fly as it goes, because what they

E0037

35

My sector

That

was what I was focused on.

It was NTC.

I was--it was my first time,

so it was just--but everything I saw stayed in the back of my mind.

Q.

It was all pretty disappointing?

A.

It was.

Q.

Was there any bright spot?

Class Olivera moment or person?

Was there any Sergeant First

A bit of training or anything?

A.

No.

Q.

No?

A.

No, there was nothing.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

It was what it was.

We get back to Alaska, and

12

unfortunately, because of the conditions of the barracks, what I

13

heard was that the barracks were overfilled.

14

was true or not.

15

one barracks--when I first got there they put me in one barracks and

16

I had, it was like the dormitory barracks where there were two rooms

17

and a common area.

18

and there was nobody else there.

19

1-501st, they moved me to those barracks, but they told me it was

20

overcrowded.

21

literally should have had one, possibly two Soldiers in there, and

22

they put three Soldiers in there.

23

one, very rarely washing his clothes and, two, maybe once a week or

E0038

I dont know if that

The stupid thing was, they had moved me over from

They put me in that room and I was in my own room

When they assigned me to the

So what they did was, they put me in a room that

One of the guys made a habit of,

36

once every other week taking a shower.

leave comes.

Q.

Now, after NTC goes, block

I end up cutting myself----

Do you want to tell me who that was or do you want me to

guess?

A.

I can tell you----

Q.

I bet he was from Texas.

A.

No, he wasnt as bad as the other guy that was there.

8
9
10

was Private Hole.

Q.

It

He is a really hairy guy.

Yeah, okay.

In that room, in the 1-501st, it was you,

Hole, and Cody Full?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

Did you have bunk beds and a couple wall lockers?

13

A.

Yup, Cody Full had a single bed and I was in a bunk bed with

14

Hole, Stephen Hole.

He is a great guy.

I had no problem with him.

15

Everyone in the platoon had a problem with Cody Full.

You can ask

16

them their own personal opinion but he is what he is.

I had no

17

problem with him.

18

from Asian philosophy, that you basically--it is what it is.

Im the type of person who simply understands,

19

Q.

You roll with it.

20

A.

Yeah, roll with it.

Like they say, in a typhoon, a tree

21

can get uprooted because it is so rigid.

22

that can just simply lie over, will survive.

23

was like, this is my team, just let it go, whatever.

E0039

37

But, in a typhoon, grass

In that situation, it
I am the quiet

type and I have learned that being the quiet type leaves very little

abrasion.

type there is no reason for any confrontation or any disagreements to

come about.

neutral position.

funny guy and you could depend upon him.

something.

Sauer.

were always going to the gym.

There is very little confrontation.

If youre the quiet

Thats what Ive learned from--as a kid.

I had no problem.

Its a very

I liked Steven Hole.

He was a

You could tell him to do

He wasnt always going to the gym like me and Sergeant

We were the two guys that wanted to go Special Forces so we

He wasnt like that but you knew that

10

if you told him to do something, you knew that he knew what he was

11

doing and he would do it.

12

his hygiene habits and because of the barracks conditions, during the

13

block leave, I ended up getting a staph infection in my hand from a

14

cut that I had gotten from the bunk beds.

15

infection in my body.

I had no problem with him.

Unfortunately,

So that puts staph

16

When my unit deployed to Afghanistan, I couldnt deploy

17

with them because the day before I had to check into the emergency

18

room, for the staph infection to heal, the surgeons there had to

19

literally cut out the wound.

20

[holding up hand and joining a finger to his thumb to depict a circle

21

approximately 1.5 inches in diameter], but the actual hole was

22

probably about that big in the side of my heel.

23

that, If you waited a couple more days, the infection would have

E0040

The open hole was about that big

38

The surgeon told me

been into your joints and ligaments.

to amputate the leg.

We most likely would have had

Thats what they told me.

So I deployed----

Q.

Serious infection.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

Well, before you--well come back to that.

But let me just

ask you about the block leave period because it goes back to what you

were saying earlier about, and you made the comment earlier, growing

up, it wasnt the best house to be in.

A.

Yeah.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

you do?

12

A.

So everybodys going home on block leave.

What did

How did you spend your block leave time?

Everybody took, I think, a month of block leave.

13

take the full month.

14

of leave.

I didnt

I stayed behind and I only took about 10 days

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

What I did was--I could have gone to see Kim in Portland.

17

Kim moved to Portland, Oregon.

18

graduation at basic training, my parents came to see me.

19

scheduled my plane ticket to leave that day to go back to Idaho.

20

They had stayed behind.

21

Idaho with Kim, helped them move out to Portland.

22

weeks after basic with Kim.

E0041

But what had happened was, my

But I had

So I basically, I went from basic back to

I spent my couple

And then I went up to Alaska.

39

Now, my parents are what they are.

But I am their son.

My childhood is what it

is.

it is--something that I feel that I owed them was to see them.

about to ship out to war.

had happened in my childhood, you know, they still show that they

care about me.

I did see that.

8
9

And, you know, it is a responsibility and

Im

And irregardless [sic-regardless] of what

And I saw that at basic training at the graduation.

So block leave came.

valley, Wood River Valley.

I took 10 days to go back to the

I didnt stay at my house.

I didnt stay

10

at my familys house.

11

[phonetic].

12

dads blue Toyota truck and so that would allowed me to go out to the

13

house and visit during the day, and then go back to Sherrys.

14

was also--I broke up my time seeing my family, seeing my friends.

15

And so that--I spent the next--well, heres the kicker.

16

got from the barracks healed up.

17

actually taken effect.

18

day into my leave that my--one, I almost blacked out.

19

swelled up to this huge bump because the MRSA suddenly decided to

20

attack my system.

21

the fourth day.

22

remainder of my leave, every 12 hours I had to go into the emergency

E0042

I stayed at a friends house, Sherry Horton

I stayed at her house.

And then I borrowed one of--my

And I

The cut I

And the MRSA infection hadnt

It wasnt until I think the third or fourth

My hand

And so the remainder of my leave, I think after

I think it was the fourth or fifth day.

40

The

room to get an IV of Vancomycin.

it.

Q.

This was in Idaho?

A.

This was in Idaho.

And after that I was just out of

So that was how I spent my leave right

before I went back and right before I deployed.

of that was to give my family a chance to see me one more time

because I felt that I kind of--you know, because I spent my time with

Kim then.

I should do that.

10

So the whole point

I kind of felt that before I deployed to a war zone, that

I should take that initiative and give them that

closure of seeing them, saying, Hey, hows it going?

11

Q.

So you spent your leave period between AIT and Alaska with

12

Kim.

You spent your 10 days of block leave in Idaho seeing your

13

family and recovering from your staph infection?

14

A.

Yeah.

15

Q.

And then back to Alaska?

16

A.

Back to Alaska.

17

CDC: Is this a good time to just----

18

I/O: Take a break?

19

CDC: Just make a head call.

20

I/O: Sure, absolutely.

21

CDC: And then if you dont mind, Id like to have a minute or

22
23

two---I/O: Absolutely.

E0043

41

1
2

CDC: ----just to scan all the junk thats come in on my cell

phone.

I/O: Absolutely.

CDC: Is that okay?

SBJ: Thats fine.

CDC: Are you all right?

SBJ: Yeah, this is a good stopping point.

I/O: Okay.

So well pick it back up with coming back to Alaska,

after block leave and before deployment.

Okay.

10

[The interview recessed on 6 August 2014.]

11

[The interview resumed on 6 August 2014.]

12

I/O: Okay, so are you comfortable there?

13

SBJ: Im good.

14

I/O: All right.

If you need to change seats, just say so.

15

happy to do that.

16

Questions by the investigating officer:

17

Q.

So we left off, you took your R and R break.

Im

Everybody

18

else took about a month.

19

did take 10 days.

20

home to see your folks, recognizing, family being what it is, you

21

still have responsibility to them and you are deploying to combat and

22

they did come to your basic training, so let me go check in with

E0044

You spent a lot of that up in Alaska.

You didnt go to see Kim in Portland.

42

You

You went

them.

You stayed with your friend.

You borrowed your dads truck.

I guess your hand was on the mend and then you had a relapse.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

I mean, when you left Alaska, you know, you were cleared to

go on leave?

A.

Yeah, I was cleared, yeah.

Q.

And then it came back.

A.

It came back.

Q.

Then you were treated there, ten days, back to Alaska.

10

now its probably early January 09?

11

CDC: Yeah.

12

A.

13

So

Of 09?

No, close to it.

Like the last month of 08.

Because we deployed, the unit deployed in February of 09.

14

Q.

Right, okay.

15

A.

And so I got back, we went on Christmas, it was Christmas

16

block leave.

17

Q.

Okay, of 08.

18

A.

Like it was just after Christmas.

19

Q.

And then into New Years of 09.

20

A.

Yeah.

21

Q.

Okay.

22

A.

So we were just getting into--so I get back.

23

up.

I was on profile.

E0045

My hand heals

My hand was swollen and it was--if I did

43

push-ups, you get this really grey, ugly-looking bulge on the side of

my hand so I was on profile.

profile.

I wanted to do was get new boots.

Unfortunately, the last very short ruck march exercise that we went

on ,I wore my new boots because I needed to break them in.

Unfortunately I laced them the way I laced my old boots and I left

them too loose.

That healed up.

I got cleared off my

And we started prepping for deployment.

One of the things

So I got new boots.

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

And I immediately got a blister on the side of my left

11

heel.

Now, I cleaned the blister.

It was just a blister.

So I

12

cleaned it and treated it just like any other blister.

13

up becoming infected with the staph infection.

14

just keep it clean and try and push on because I didnt want to do

15

anything that would hold me up.

16

running to the doctor just because of like a little blister or

17

something like that.

But it ended

Now, I did my best to

Im not the kind of person that goes

18

Q.

Yeah.

19

A.

Unfortunately, over the days and weeks, it started getting

20

worse.

And because I was using iodine for cleaning, it dyed my skin

21

brown.

So I couldnt really see what the skin looked like.

22

knew it was really bright red.

23

unit.

So I

And heres another example of my

One morning we were getting ready to go out for formation for

E0046

44

the morning formation, and the platoon medic was walking through the

hallway and I stopped him.

it and he didnt really even pause.

even really stop walking.

around and said, Yeah, thats going to get nasty.

walking.

that he was supposed to be overseeing.

Thats going to get nasty, and he walked on.

get it checked out.

I said, Look at this.

And he looked at

Well, he paused but he didnt

He paused, he looked at it, he turned

And he kept

And there was no other advice to me as one of his Soldiers

He glanced at it and said,
He never said, Go

He never said, You need to come see me.

10

need to get this under control.

11

do any of that.

Were about to deploy.

We

He doesnt

12

Q.

Was this the same medic who you end up serving with in

13

Afghanistan?

14

A.

No.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

Our squad medic was different.

17

Q.

Okay.

18

Q.

Because our other medic broke his back in a jump.

19

A.

Okay.

20

A.

Doc Slaughter was a really cool guy.

This isnt--this is like the platoon medic.

That was Corneilson.

And during NTC I got

21

to know him because hes the medic.

22

do a quick brief here.

23

unit, I hadnt really--you know, in the barracks you dont really get

E0047

You know, he has to--Ill just

When I got to NTC, because I was new to the

45

to see those--he was married so he lived off post.

post but he lived in a different area.

him very often.

Hes an Army medic.

red dog tag.

Q.

Right.

A.

Right.

Or he lived on

So I never really got to see

So when we got to NTC my cot was right next to him.

He needs to know what your issues are.

Because Im allergic to Amoxicillin.

I have a

If something

happens to me out there, he needs to know that.

Q.

Sure.

10

A.

To pass it on, if anything, to make sure that the people

11

who are taking me, who are evacuating me pass it on to the base.

12

for some reason I get hit in such a way that they have to strip me

13

off and thankfully Senior Drill Sergeant Olivera [phonetic], I think

14

he was the only one who ever did this, he told me to put across my

15

brown shirt in marker my initials, my last four and A-positive.

16

Alert: allergy, red tag, allergy, Amoxicillin.

17

something happened to me out there, they stripped off my body armor,

18

the medics could glance----

19

Q.

Theyd know.

20

A.

----see and know.

If

And

So that if

Because what if something happens to me

21

so bad that when theyre ripping me [ripping gear and clothes off me]--

22
it

theyre taking everything off, they clip that chain and that goes off with

23

and they put me on the MEDEVAC and the MEDEVAC--and I get to the hospital

E0048

46

and nobody knows.

A.

Right.

So I knew that he needed to know that.

So I got

with him.

We hit it off because hes just kind of--hes got a very

quirky sense of humor and hes a medic.

senses of humor.

to know what was going on with me because Im one of his Soldiers.

Hes responsible for me.

You know, they have weird

So I got along with him.

Q.

Right.

A.

Its not just if I get hit.

10

Q.

Right.

11

A.

Its, Hows your feet doing?

And I knew that he needed

Hows your body doing?

12

Hows your shoulders doing?

He has to keep me going when I get in

13

that battlefield because not only am I going to a battlefield where

14

Im wearing 100-plus extra pounds of gear--you know, weapons because

15

Im a SAW gunner.

16

terrains in the world.

But also were going to one of the most extreme

And its a desert and the heat is a killer.

17

Q.

Right.

18

A.

I mean, literally, thats what we were taught back in basic

19

at Benning.

20

back on a jump right before we deploy.

21

deployment.

22

never came to me because--he never talked to me.

23

introduce himself.

E0049

In the summertime you saw what it was.

So he breaks his

The last jump before

I never see Corneilson until I get to Afghanistan.

He

He didnt even

I had to ask, Well, whos the replacement to Doc

47

Slaughter?

Well, they just pointed to, Oh, Corneilson.

And he never came up to me, he never said, Hey, hows--all right, I

need to understand--hows your--he never asked me.

deploy because of a staph infection, because of MRSA, which means

its in my system.

I was late to

Q.

Right.

A.

He never came up to me and said, Hows it going?

your foot going?

What do I need to know?

We need to get this cleared up.

You know.

Hows

What medicines are you on?

We need to understand this.

If I

10

have MRSA in my system and I get hit out there and I get to the

11

hospital, I have open wounds that could easily go south quickly.

12

Q.

Right.

13

A.

He never even asked me.

It was in the paperwork, yeah.

14

But paperwork is one thing.

15

it to get lost somewhere?

16

happens with my staph infection in my heel, the doc sees me, he goes,

17

Yeah, its going to get nasty.

18

basically lost Doc Slaughter.

19

getting taken to the emergency room was because my battle buddies,

20

the guys in my platoon who I knew, one was Cross, PFC Cross, I

21

believe it was Chris, and there was Nascimento and Steven Hole and

22

Howard and Sutton.

23

hospital.

E0050

How easy is it to slip up?

He never talked to me.

He passes on.

How easy is

So basically what

At that point we

And the only reason why I ended up

Theyre like, Hey, man, you need to get to the

Because it was swollen.

It looked ugly but it had iodine

48

on it so I couldnt really tell what it was looking like.

get me to the emergency room, they drop me off, Sutton gives me his

smart phone and says, Call us and let us know when youre done.

get into the emergency room and the surgeon comes in and he takes one

look at it and presses down on it and it bursts and literally just a

mountain of puss just oozes out and they said, All right, we need to

get him into operation now.

it.

they were leaving, the next couple days.

10

I miss deployment.

I go through the operation and thats

Like deployment was literally the next day

I was in the hospital and

they were basically leaving a day or two after that.

11

Q.

So you had to recover?

12

A.

Yeah.

13

March, April.

14

I got over there.

15

So they

That was it.

Stay back and recover for a while?

And that took me about three months.

February,

I believe it was the end of April going into May that

Like I said, Im terrible with dates.

CDC: Let me interject for one second.

16

you know and want to shift forward.

17

subject, how is your heel now?

18

you have some back issue?

Im going to assume that

But just before we leave this

And you also said that your back is--

So just take one second.

19

I/O: Sure.

20

CDC: You know, whats your deal physically right now?

21

I/O: I was going to ask him myself, hows your heel now?

22

CDC: Okay, sorry.

E0051

Absolutely.

49

A.

Well, now theres--there was the scarring.

And before

there was some--because they had to cut out such a huge hole, there

was some nerve--it came back really weird.

like marching, thered be like a tight, kind of, a little bit of pain

and pull down there.

actually feel it.

So it had kind of weird--

But now, because of the neuropathy, I cant

Q.

Right.

Its a different issue.

A.

Yeah, a different issue.

Q.

So you were, I mean, I guess back in--so the unit left in

10

early March, late February, early March, the unit started deploying.

11

You stayed back.

12

fully recovered and cleared medically for deployment?

You left in early May.

Before you left, you were

13

A.

Yeah.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

Yeah, I was.

16

Q.

And youre confident about that?

17

A.

Yeah, no there wasnt----

18

Q.

They werent playing games trying to push you out?

19

A.

No.

20

Q.

And you werent playing games not revealing----

21

A.

No.

22

Q.

----injury to them?

23

A.

I was 100 percent.

E0052

I mean----

50

Q.

Everybody agreed, yeah.

A.

I was 100 percent.

It healed up.

It closed up.

my spare time, I was rucking.

full strength.

walking to make sure that my muscles didnt completely atrophy.

kept that up.

when I was still back in the states I started running.

deployed I was 100 percent.

Q.

And so, I had full mobility.

I was, in

Like the entire time I was on crutches, I was still

So when I

Okay.

CDC: And now do you have a profile?

11

A.

12

CDC: A full profile.

14

So I

So when I deployed I was--I had started running before

10

13

I had

Yes, now I have a full profile.

And just a word about your back.

Whats

the deal with your back?

A.

Its just really painful in the lower down--in the muscles.

15

Its not actually bone.

But basically, what it was, was from the

16

last five years the position I spent the majority of the time in was

17

on the floor, sitting, cross-legged and basically having no support

18

except for those basic muscles really.

19

there.

So thats what the problem is

20

CDC: Do you take anything for it?

21

A.

22

CDC: Have you been given a prescription?

E0053

No.

Im not a pill person.

51

I dont like pills.

A.

No.

Theyve offered it to me, but like I said, Im not

one--if its pain that I can deal with, then Im not going to start

taking pills that are going to give me side effects, or make me more

drowsy, or make me less alert, or anything like that.

feet.

Same with my

They want to give me----

CDC: Does your back ever lock up so that you are immobile?

A.

CDC: Yeah, thats what Im talking about.

Sometimes, yeah, like the muscles will.

Do you have muscle

spasms?

10

A.

11

CDC: You have to lie on the rack for a day, two days?

12
13

Yeah, sometimes.
How long

does it take to resolve?

A.

Not a day.

It would be like more of an amount of time.

14

Like when it locks up really bad it will take maybe half a day of

15

just making sure that I dont go out of the way of straining it or

16

anything like that.

17

CDC: Got it.

18

A.

19

CDC: Okay.

20

I/O: No.

21

A.

So that deploys me late.

22

Q.

Anything significant about the time in Alaska when you were

23

on Rear-D.

E0054

Just letting it relax again.

Not to digress.
Thats important.

Okay.
So I get over to Afghanistan.

Just really frustrated, disappointed, eager?

52

1
2

A.

Yeah.

Like I said, at that point, you know, being a young

man, Im not patient.

Q.

Yeah, right.

A.

This was my adventure.

This was where I was.

During NTC

there was those bad moments but it was like, Im getting these

weapon systems up on the trucks.

LMTVs.

do this.

Im doing these things.

Im driving these trucks, you know,

This was like, Im getting paid to

Q.

Sure, sure.

10

A.

And then when I got into Afghanistan it was like, you know,

11

they put you into the MRAPs to drive into maintenance or whatever and

12

it was like this was, Im getting paid to do this.

13

Q.

Yeah, right.

14

A.

You know, this is awesome.

15

Q.

So early May--we checked your records.

So there was that.

I think it was

16

around the 9th of May or so you got a commercial flight to Kuwait and

17

then to Bagram and then Sharana.

18

A.

Yeah, yeah.

19

Q.

Around the 11th of May I think is when we think you got

20
21
22
23

there.

Somewhere around there.

A.

Yeah, around the 11th of May.

Bagram before I got to Sharana.

Q.

E0055

Typically.
53

Because we spent time in

A.

To in-process the Army base, basically.

Now I should--

theres a detail I should go back to.

Before, when my unit was

prepping to deploy, we did an equipment layout for the battalion

commander and sergeant major.

So platoon, platoon, theyd do a walk through, you know, basically

looking at our immediate equipment.

rattle, all our equipment.

it, make sure that, you know, they wanted eyes on, to see everything.

And then after they did that, then they were going to give their

They went and they did it by platoon.

Basically our full body battle

Our racks, everything.

So they look at

10

speech.

Now, I know that Hollywood has done an amazing job at

11

bullshitting and delusioning [sic] the American people about war

12

movies and the video games have done an amazing job at making guys

13

feel like theyre these awesome, you know, supernatural or unnatural

14

killing machines or whatever.

You know, thats understood.

15

kind of the American culture.

That video game, movie, adventure, the

16

action movies of Hollywood, thats what it does.

17

the war movies that you watch, it focuses on these main characters

18

and these main characters, no matter what, never get killed.

19

what happens is anyone whos watching that will assimilate to that

20

main character and say, Oh, thats me.

21

trick themselves into thinking that thats me and nothings going to

22

happen to me.

23

Q.

E0056

Right.
54

Thats

Its ironic that

And

So that they literally

A.

The reality of the situation is that is not you and it is

not a Hollywood movie.

different.

And the real worlds rules are completely

So here we are, were standing here, the sergeant major and

the lieutenant colonel are doing their talks.

The sergeant major is

going to do his.

want to rape, pillage, and kill.

need to think about COIN.

this was the first time I had heard anything from the sergeant major.

He opens with, I know you all joined because you

Thats why I joined.

However, you

Now, what hit me about that immediately--

10

Like, I saw him in NTC.

11

clean things up.

12

with him.

13

anything, about whats going on here.

14

immediately what popped into my mind was basically what youre saying

15

is, You joined because you want to be a rapist, a thief, and a

16

murderer.

17

kill, thats literally going back to Genghis Khan.

18

of Genghis Khan in Afghanistan is a completely different subject that

19

were not going to get into.

20

aback by it because thats not why I joined.

21

rapist, murderer, and killer.

22

Q.

E0057

He was going around pulling privates to go

All right.

But I never had any actual interaction

So this was the first time I actually heard him talk about
And when he said that,

Because that--to kill--you say, Rape, pillage, and

Now, the issue

But so it was like I was a little taken

Right.

55

I didnt join to be a

1
2

A.

All right.

And at my time in Alaska, every weekend we had

to have briefs, safety briefs.

Typical thing, right?

Q.

Mm-hm.

A.

What it always contained was, of course, alcohol.

Fort

Richardson had a huge problem with drunk drivers.

had like the biggest drunk driver problem in the entire Army.

then there was the drugs.

was sexual assault and rape because it was prevalent in the--usually

it was the other MOSs units when they mixed women in with men,

10

Apparently Alaska
And

But the one subject that was always there

which, you know, its kind of a no-brainer.

11

Q.

Right.

12

A.

But it was just like hearing that going on in the unit was

13

to me, thats--it was disgusting to know that that was literally

14

happening in the military.

15

like the world out there.

A military unit is not supposed to be

16

Q.

Right.

17

A.

A military unit is supposed to be the team.

18

to be a unit.

19

to be relying on for support, they dont even have the ethics not to

20

rape a woman or not to sexually assault a woman.

21

their barracks which means theyre that team member.

22

Q.

E0058

Its supposed

And the fact that these Soldiers that were supposed

Right.

Right.

56

And theyre in

A.

So that hit on me and then when the sergeant major said,

you know, The reason why I joined is to rape, pillage, and kill.

That immediately settled into my mind, Well, theres the problem.

If thats the reason why people are joining the Army, then no wonder

we have these safety briefs about drunk driving and drugs and sexual

assault.

ago there was a rape in the such-and-such barracks.

were listening to that is--you can argue, well, thats just human

nature.

And the reason why were telling you, you know, two days

Thats just what happens.

The reason why

You see it out in the cities all

10

the time.

11

Were not supposed to be civilians.

12

like that world out there.

13

days, those prestigious levels of society allowed military personnel

14

because the military personnel were held and trained to a higher

15

level of personal bearing.

16

up into the higher society was by being in the military.

17

have to have the money.

18

All you had to do was have that bearing and that service to your

19

country.

20

because they understood what that meant.

21

has fallen apart.

22

standard.

E0059

But that was just--you know, this is a military unit.

Were not supposed to be normal,

This is the reason why back in the old

So that was one of the ways that you get

You didnt

You didnt have to have the connections.

And all those snobs upstairs respected that.

They had to

And that, unfortunately,

Because no longer do we hold ourselves to that

And that unit, my experience, I didnt see any of that

57

being--Im not going to speak for the rest of the Army because its

much bigger than my perspective.

So going back to--I get to FOB Sharana from Bagram.

Another thing that scared the heck out of me, before I get to FOB

Sharana, we fly into Kuwait.

America and we come into the airport at Kuwait because it was a

commercial flight.

anything about Kuwait or the security measures or what theyre

dealing with, but we step out of that airport, a bunch of privates

We come off the plane that came from

We get into the airport at Kuwait, I dont know

10

and one sergeant who also was deploying late for some reason.

11

dont know what it was.

12

different MOS.

13

know, the highest rank.

He wasnt infantry or anything.

He was a

Hes supposed to be our supervisor because hes, you

14

Q.

Right.

15

A.

So we step out into the airport and Im looking around and

16

Im seeing nothing but bed sheets and turbans.

17

facial coverings and Im going, Good grief.

18

these giant green bags, weve got these ACU rucksacks.

19

short haircuts.

20

say, Group of Soldiers.

21

work at the airport that are locals signing off on military

22

personnel paperwork and getting us into the country.

23

much but a phone call to say, Hey, guys.

E0060

Were in civilians.

Or bed sheets and

Here we are, weve got
Weve got the

But it doesnt take a genius to

As well as theres airport personnel that

58

It doesnt take

Theyre at the airport.

So we go out into the--we go past the gates, into the lobby.

And

when we had to get all of our luggage, there was a--you know, of

course, obviously theres going to be a huge mix up because everybody

has to scatter to pick up their stuff.

stuff and we try to get through the gates.

dont know what his problem was or if there was a problem.

he was just overwhelmed.

as everyone else.

waiting for him, were looking for the sergeant whos overseeing us,

So we scatter to get all our

One of the young guys, I
I think

He doesnt come through the gates as fast

He got held up for some strange reason.

So were

10

were a bunch of newbie privates who havent even been deployed

11

before and what happens?

12

that were supposed to be on and that bus leaves without us.

13

right.

14

carriages, and the amount of people that were getting on that bus, I

15

mean, youve got at least five of six other privates under your

16

command.

17

out, he leaves us behind, gets onto the bus and takes off.

18

looking around going--were trying to get accountability of this

19

young guy whos having trouble.

20

there by ourselves, standing by the door, looking like Soldiers in

21

the Kuwait airport.

22

He goes out and gets onto the first bus

All

Now, buses are not giant, humongous trains that have multiple

Q.

E0061

Thats a pretty obvious facial recognition thing.

He goes
Were

We get out there and suddenly were

Its pretty uncomfortable?

59

A.

Yeah, extremely uncomfortable.

And he just leaves us.

We didnt know what to do.

It

was like, its a bus.

So were standing

there by the front door where were supposed to be to get on the bus

going, What do we do?

CIA or something like that, hes in plainclothes but he obviously

knows what hes doing, he comes out.

security levels because he just walks out past all the security gates

like he knows what hes doing.

says, Okay, guys.

And some--a man comes out, whether he was

Whats up?

Hes obviously got huge

He has a radio in his hands and he

We said, Well, were supposed to be

10

on the bus.

Hes all, Another ones not coming.

Well, you missed

11

that one.

12

Right.

13

inconspicuous.

14

we had to move back from the front door.

15

theres a giant pillar and we basically put a 360 around that pillar

16

and sat there waiting.

17

were the only white people.

Another ones not coming for such-and-such a time.

You need to wait for that one.

You need to look

So dont stand here by the front door right now.

So

We basically set up--

And it was extremely uncomfortable because

18

Q.

Sure.

19

A.

Not only the only white people there, but----

20

Q.

Obviously Soldiers.

21

A.

Yeah, obviously Soldiers.

And youve seen all these locals

22

coming in and getting their family thats flying in from the airport.

23

So we make it onto the plane, or we make it onto the bus, the next

E0062

60

bus, and we get out there.

And we find the other sergeant who was

like, Sorry guys, I thought you were right behind me.

you know?

to--me and another Soldier who was also in my platoon, Private First

Class Fry, Jason Fry, so we get to FOB Sharana.

He gets us to Bagram.

meet sergeant major.

Its a bus,

Bagram we split apart and I get

At FOB Sharana we 6

And he goes, Whos not 100 percent?

Fry, 7

not only--he broke his collarbone once but then right before we
8

deployed or a couple of weeks before we deployed he went snowboarding

and broke his collarbone a second time.

Now, I dont know if youve

10

ever met him, but hes a fairly--hes not very robust.

11

put it that way.

12

very thin.

13

platoon and he goes to work, basically, he gets taken to a FOB that

14

is a combination of like military personnel like Special Forces who

15

are working with the ANP, Afghanistan [National] Police.

16

combination base.

17

he was handling all the reports that were coming in.

18

bring reports of intel or whatever and he would handle that, those

19

reports, and file them.

20

-I saw it too.

21

armory basically.

22

platoon.

E0063

Lets just

Hes medium weight, medium height, but you know,

And so hes not 100 percent.

So he gets pulled from the

So its a

And what he does, from what I last heard of, was

People would

I mean, they issued him an M16 because that-

It was just basically the oldest M16 in the blasted

So he gets pulled out.

Hes no longer part of the

Hes no longer infantry basically.

61

I mean, he has a broken

collarbone.

collarbone.

You cant put on weight when you have a broken

Q.

Right.

A.

So he gets pulled out.

Im standing there and our sergeant

major looks at me. Youre 100 percent? Yes, Im 100 percent.

Because I was.

you know--my perception when I deployed and perhaps you could say it

was my ignorance because I didnt ask enough questions, but my

perception when I deployed was I was going to a tent behind a bunch

10

of sandbags where I was going to be in a desert sweating, dirty, and

11

living as basic and as----

And I get--from there I take my bags, I get to my,

12

Q.

Austere and Spartan.

13

A.

Yeah, like back in World War II when those guys would be

14

forced forward and you had nothing but a bunch of cans of meat and

15

bad living conditions or Vietnam.

16

Hollywood but the storytelling romance going on in my head.

So you could say Hollywood, not

17

Q.

Sure, yeah.

18

A.

So I get to FOB Sharana to my air conditioned barracks with

19

springed mattresses and hot water for showers, bathrooms with

20

toilets, you got the--I forget what its called but the place with

21

all the computers and the phones where you can go, youve got the

22

basketball court, youve got the Burger King and the Pizza Hut.

23

get there and Im just like, Are you kidding me?

E0064

62

So I

Youve got the

chow hall where you can go and get as much food as you want, whenever

you want, which was a complete phenomenon to me because living the

way I had lived, I lived very minimally and only eating when I needed

to eat because food costs money.

are complaining to me that life is so hard over here.

Are you serious?

So Im looking at this and people

Im going,

So I get to these barracks and literally that night we had

to go out on a routine mission thats QRF.

exact details of that mission.

And I cant remember the

But when we were at Bagram we went

10

through an IED course, typical IED course.

11

steps of how to spot IEDs.

12

smart enough to know a little bit of human beings will know that IEDs

13

are being used as a weapon because you dont spot them.

14

us a motorcycle.

15

guys points to the rear taillight and says, Because theres wires

16

sticking out of the rear taillight.

17

world country.

18

going to be held together by baling twine and chewing gum and tape.

19

This is a third world country.

20

you see pictures of the Middle East, you see how these people have to

21

survive.

22

So its like, youre looking at a motorcycle, how do you tell its an

23

IED?

Its a complete joke because anybody

How do you know that this is an IED?

They showed
One of the

Im going, This is a third

Theres going to be wires sticking off.

The thing is

You see pictures of Chinese, Vietnam,

Their shoes are held together by whatever means they can.

Unless theres some--you cant.

E0065

They walk through the

63

And they know that.

Theyre

not going to go to the trouble of making an IED and then making it so

obvious that youre going to see it, right?

war.

deal with guerilla warfare, right?

Thats why its called strategy.

Thats why its called

Thats why its so hard to

So the IED course was basically a joke of saying, Well,

this is how you spot this.

And this is the type of explosives that

theyre using.

Thats one of the things they can use, yes.

is tape and homemade explosive.

Theyre using old Russian mines.

No, theyre not.

But what theyre using

But one of the things that they

10

taught us in that IED course was, Heres a culvert that goes under a

11

road.

12

simple and it also serves as a visual discernment of when that

13

vehicle gets to that point, push the button.

14

Well, we started dismounting Soldiers to check the culverts.

15

did they do?

16

trenches or the channels that the Soldiers were climbing into for

17

those Soldiers.

18

Okay.

They put explosive in the culvert because its easy and its

Counteraction.

What

They started putting IEDs in the

Simple tactics.

Very common sense.

Thats what we need to watch for.

19

So what did we do?

Very obvious.

All right?

Got it.

First mission I go on was a night--basically, it was a

20

night vehicle patrol.

21

like I said I was a little vague on the exact details of it.

22

little overwhelmed.

23

rack together and they were basically saying, Were leaving now.

E0066

It was just we were going out to do something,

I had just gotten into the country.

64

I was a

I threw my

Youre on patrol with us.

we drive out there.

Jump in the car or jump in the MRAP.

Its nighttime.

So

Were going off of NODs and IR.

Q.

A what?

A.

NODs, night vision and infrared lighting.

Q.

Okay.

A.

So Im in the front vehicle with, not the platoon sergeant

but the next in command, so hed be like--the platoon sergeant, the

official platoon sergeant, and hes like the unofficial platoon

sergeant.

10

Theyre the same rank.

Sergeant Hein was promoted to

first class right before we deployed.

So Im in the first vehicle.

11

Q.

With Sergeant Hein?

12

A.

Not with Sergeant Hein, but the next--with Sergeant Duffy.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

A.

So Im in that vehicle.

Theres another SAW-gunner in

15

there; Logan, big guy.

Hes a SAW gunner.

Now, SAW gunners do not

16

carry the same load as riflemen or 203 gunners.

17

ammunition.

18

because were carrying so much extra weight, we also have extra

19

muscle weight which makes us even heavier, right?

We carry more

We carry more equipment, so were the heaviest.

20

Q.

Mm-hm.

21

A.

So the convoy comes to a stop, the QRF convoy.

22

our platoon.

23

ahead.

It comes to a stop at nighttime.

Weve got to dismount to check it.

E0067

65

And

Its just

Theres a culvert

All right, now I get the

idea that Im the newbie here so I need to start learning how to do

things.

have to slide down a three-foot bank into a channel, check the

culvert, climb back up the three-foot bank, which is just loose dirt

and very hard to do especially when youre holding a SAW with SAW

rack with NODs in the middle of the night.

dismounts two SAW gunners, Logan, hes gotta be--you know, hes a

weight lifter so hes got to be one of the heaviest guys in the

platoon and myself, to go check the culvert.

But what happens is in order to go check this culvert you

So what does he do?

So okay, fine.

He

We

10

dismount, we push out from the vehicles and we start going.

11

one ever told me this but I understand this just from what I learned

12

from books, just from what I learned before the Army, is that, when

13

you get into those moments, slow down and take your time, because

14

thats where mistakes happen.

15

that you need to start habits now.

16

because good habits started the first 90 days and the last 90 days

17

are what are going to get you.

18

starting your habits and youre not quite sure what youre doing.

19

if you stay, if you start the habits and you build those good habits

20

to begin with, when it comes to the last 90 days--theres so many

21

casualties in the last 90 days because people start getting sloppy.

22

So you have to start your habits now.

E0068

Now, no

And I also learned back in IED course

Good habits now save you later

Because the first 90 days youre

66

So

So I dismount. I start pushing out. Ive got my stupid IR

on my SAW isnt working because the lens has broken off and it wasnt

my fault because I had just got there.

that was carrying my SAW into Afghanistan, they apparently had not--

they had bashed it on something.

the infrared off my NODs and I also have a red lens headlamp that I

carry in my pocket.

limited amount of spectrum out there.

begin with so Im not getting the full benefit of having NODs on.

The person, whoever it was

So I cant use that IR.

Im using

So Im using my IR off my nods which puts a very

And my NODs were messed up to

10

But my thought is, Here I am.

11

case by random chance or an act of God you see it before you step on

12

it.

13

that it was a time sensitive thing.

14

that.

15

pressing about it.

16

sergeant opens the front door and tells me to hurry up.

17

goes against the common sense of--basically, he was just saying,

18

Theres a possible minefield in front of you, hurry up and go hit a

19

mine.

20

or in the truck.

21

being ordered to walk even faster through a possible minefield.

22

say--at that moment its almost what happened in my mind was, Okay,

23

this a joke.

So I slow down.

The idea is to look for IEDs just in

And at no point in time did anybody tell me

It was a routine mission, I knew

And it wasnt even a pressing mission.

There was nothing time

So Im walking toward the trench.

Suddenly the
Hurry up

Thats amazing coming from the person sitting back in the car

E0069

Not so amazing from the person thats standing here

It doesnt matter.

Its just random chance.

67

So I

Its

luck.

Its an act of God that if you make it past--if you dont step

on the mine or if you step on a mine, thats fate.

will.

up my pace. I got to the trench.

take my time, so I did.

The door opens again, Bergdahl, hurry up.

into the trench.

culvert again.

there isnt something down there.

And it doesnt matter what you do.

Thats Gods

Its a joke.

So I picked

However, Im certain here I should

I paused.

I started scanning the trench.

So I basically slide

I fumble with my stupid red light to check the

Im checking the culvert, trying to make sure that
And again they start yelling at

10

me.

Again he opens the door, Hurry up.

Logan says, Yeah, hurry

11

up.

12

joke.

13

hurrying.

14

is no timestamp.

15

a platoon pinned down out there that we need to get to.

16

nothing like that. This is my first night out.

17

Thats why I dismounted to begin with is to start getting that

18

practice.

19

minefield?

20

expecting the Taliban want me to do and just throw me into that

21

trench without even a thought?

22

my first experience in Afghanistan.

Because Logans trying to help me out.

It was like this is a

Youre telling me to hurry up in situations I shouldnt be

E0070

There is no reason for me to hurry at this point.

There

This is not a life or death situation that there is

Theres

And they knew that.

And youre telling me to hurry up and go through a

Youre telling me to hurry up and just do what theyre

That was my first mission.

That was

And that basically continued.

68

The other thing that immediately came into view was there

was somebody called, he was a specialist when we got him, Specialist

Gaughan, became Corporal Gaughan fairly quickly.

became a Corporal Gaughan fairly quickly was because he knew how to

kiss up to the platoon sergeants.

other sergeants.

time.

higher rank and the reason why he was a specialist was because he had

done something which we werent--we were told by our sergeants,

And the reason he

He knew how to kiss up to all the

But the reason why--he had been in the Army a long

He had been a higher rank.

But the reason why he wasnt a

10

Dont go there.

Hes had some hard times.

11

let it be.

12

reason why he was busted down to private or specialist was because he

13

had--his life choices were pretty much sucking.

14

corporal.

15

how to get all the other privates in trouble in such a way that would

16

make him look good.

17

everybody knew this and everybody, you simply--at that time you

18

mentioned, Corporal Gaughan, and everybody in the platoon would

19

roll their eyes and just go, Shit bag, brown-nosing, thats what he

20

does.

21

were not looking forward to the day they gave him sergeant and put

22

him in command of one of the teams.

23

pushing for.

Okay, fine, Roger that.

Youre just supposed to

Just let it go.

But the

And suddenly hes

And the only reason why hes corporal is because he knew

And from what I was getting from my platoon was

And everybody was ruing--well, not ruing the day, but they

E0071

But thats what they were

They were pushing him as fast as they could.

69

On a sports team it only takes one bad person for the

entire team to lose focus and fall apart and start arguing amongst

themselves about little things or start, you know, on a regular sport

team.

are regularly getting blown up by IEDs.

pressure.

this guy, theres a few of them, that were doing their personal

agendas, getting their teammates in trouble so that they could get up

higher.

This team is in the middle of a war zone where our vehicles

Were dealing with that

And in the middle of this war zone we have to deal with

And the way that he used his rank was basically, I was

10

bullied too often as a kid, now I get revenge.

11

rank as, I have rank.

12

say, Roger that, Corporal.

13

that because I have rank and I can use it.

14

for whatever he wants to use it for.

15

was.

16

field, Ill just give you this example, we were out at a TCP and when

17

we got back to the FOB, the main FOB, Sergeant Duffy called the

18

platoon.

19

called us all into the area behind the trucks, put us in the front-

20

leaning rest position.

21

you all to look at this.

22

candy wrappers fall out of the barrel.

23

Sergeant Olivera told us that when youre getting AT4s from supply,

I get to say something to you and you have to

You have to do this, you have to do

And he got us in trouble.

E0072

He was using his

And hes going to use it

Thats the kind of person he

Like there was one time out in the

We were running maintenance on the trucks really quick.

He

He had an AT4 in his hand, he says, I want

He tips the AT4 upside-down and a bunch of

70

All right, now Senior Drill

make sure that the rubber cap on the end isnt broken because that

means its still good to go, it hasnt been affected by, you know [water,

sand, dust etc].

apparently

pressure and theres, you know, the supply guys cant always give

perfectly good AT4s.

the AT4 upside-down, whether it was his fault or not that we signed

for an AT4 that had the end caps not sealed, well, thats debatable,

but candy wrappers fall out of it.

So whoever it was who was in charge of getting those AT4s

didnt care.

All right, I understand that theres going to be

Okay.

Understood that.

So here he is, he tips

Now hes like, I want to know

10

who did this.

11

anything?

12

idea thats going on.

13

everybody knows that before we went down on the front-leaning rest

14

position, everybody was basically warning us that, you know, Gaughan

15

is up to his old tricks again and that somethings coming down.

16

people were talking about the AT4.

17

had an understanding of what was going on.

18

standing there.

19

Stand up now, and you know, whatever.

20

makes the assumption--Im fairly certain he makes the assumption that

21

were doing the whole, were all just going to be a team and take it

22

together and no one of us is going to single out the other person.

23

But what I was thinking is not all of us are down here.

E0073

Nobody says anything.

Well, youre not going to say

These arent the exact words, but this is the general

Youre not going to say anything?

Now,

And

So when we got to that moment, I

So Sergeant Duffy is

He says, Well, I want you to tell me who did it.

71

And no ones doing it.

So he

And the

people that youre putting that question to isnt all of us in the

platoon.

basically say, Were not all down here, Sergeant.

Well, what do you mean?

because he knew what I was saying.

fact that Corporal Gaughan, his little whispering voice, was standing

behind the platoon sergeant and Sergeant Duffy, happily watching.

And everybody, all the privates knew and they were talking about it;

that that truck that the AT4 was on was the truck that Corporal

And so what I do is Im sitting there and he says that.

And he says,

And he gets this smirk on his face like

And what I was saying was the

10

Gaughan was in.

And all the other privates knew--it was character to

11

his reputation of doing these things.

12

zone.

13

deal with but now suddenly we have to be smoked.

14

reprimanded because this guy is playing his own personal agenda.

15

right.

16

knows hes a shit bag, you know, everyone knows that.

17

type of person hes going to be.

18

Thats what we do.

19

the back of your mind and youre going--it sticks in the back of your

20

mind and you have to think about these things.

Were in the middle of a war

We dont have a hard enough time dealing with what we have to

Got it.

21

Fine.

We have to be

Theyre not going to do anything.

All right.

Okay.

Suck it up.

All

Everybody

Thats the
Drive on.

But this was just--it just sticks in

Other instance, one of the guys that I was--his bed was

22

directly across from mine in the barracks here.

23

And thank God he made it through that deployment.

E0074

72

His name was Howard.

Q.

This is in Sharana?

A.

This is Sharana.

Q.

Sharana.

A.

Yeah, this is in Sharana.

Howard was a classic should not

be in the military service, especially as an 11B, but hes there

because hes a good guy who wanted to do the deed.

the duty.

his family proud.

was there.

He wanted to make his country proud.

He wanted to do

He wanted to make

He wanted to do something that had meaning.

He wasnt the best [PT] guy.

So he

He wasnt the best to deal

10

with stress.

He was on Ritalin for legitimate reasons.

He was

11

having a hard enough time as it was.

12

his, you know, was acting as his mentor basically and keeping his

13

back.

14

Brazilian and he had been in the Brazilian Army and those guys

15

arent--they dont mess around.

16

joined the Army was because he wanted to come to America and he

17

didnt want anybody in America to say, Well, you dont deserve to be

18

here.

19

do deserve to be here.

20

at risk to defend this country because I deserve to be here.

That

21

was his thing.

Now,

22

Howards team sergeant who was also the guy who on his guard shift

23

out at a TCP was caught masturbating on the guard shift in the

Thankfully Nascimento was being

Because Nascimento, I dont know if you ever met him, but hes

Well, the reason why Nascimento

So he was in the military because he wanted to prove that, I

E0075

I did my duty to this country.

I put my life

So thankfully he was taking care of Howard.

73

evening, as if thats a good example of how you should be paying

attention to your sector of fire, you know, in the middle of this war

zone.

belittles Howard in front of me and Nascimento and I believe Logan

was there.

my word, by handing him 20 dollars because he bet Howard 20 dollars

he wouldnt pass his running test in Afghanistan but he did.

gave him the 20 dollars and said, Well, because Im a man of my

word.

One day were in the barracks and he comes in and he basically

He belittles him by saying, Well, you know, Im a man of

So he

And then he gave Howard this look and then walks away.

And I

10

could see Howard.

11

it on his face that it hit him hard enough, you know, it was like

12

just this nasty twist of [the blade], you know.

13

whats up?

14

said, Whyd you take too much of your Ritalin?

15

because after a while it stops working so I have to take more in the

16

daytime.

17

perspective what I saw was this: Howard, who doesnt have the natural

18

capacity to deal with the stresses of a combat zone, was a good-

19

hearted guy.

20

physical effects on people.

21

but it has serious effects on your personality and how you behave.

22

So hes on Ritalin and in that very sentence that he said to me

23

immediately set off red flags in my mind of saying, Hes on a

E0076

Howard like stuttered to a stop and you could see

And I asked him, Howard,

Well, he said, Because I took too much of my Ritalin.

He says, Well,

Now, I didnt go in-depth into the issue, but from my

Hes on Ritalin, which is a serious--has serious

I dont know the exact details of it,

74

And I

medication and hes having trouble with it in the middle of a combat

zone and his sergeants belittling him and getting digs at him

instead of saying, All right, Howard, we need to correct this.

Youre having trouble with your medication.

of them.

say, Give me your medication and once a day Ill give you the pill

that you need to have.

trouble.

says hes having trouble and he has a medication that is perhaps

We cant have that.

Youre taking too many

So you know, fix the situation and

Lets fix the situation.

Hes taking more than he should be.

Hes having

Thats a red flag that

10

helping him deal with stress or depression or something like that, so

11

hes taking more than he should be.

12

taking it, thats okay.

13

should be.

14

more.

15

saying, Hey, Howard, how are you doing?

16

or anything like that. it was a deliberate dig at him that hurt him

17

like he doesnt have enough to deal with on the fact that every time

18

we roll out one of our trucks, he has a huge chance of hitting an

19

IED.

Thats a red flag.

If hes not

All right, hes not taking as much as he

Thats still a red flag but thats not as bad as taking

But instead of--what I saw in that moment was instead of

Are you doing all right,

So I saw that.

20

Q.

Who was the sergeant?

21

A.

It was a Sergeant Komes was his name.

22

Q.

He was a squad leader?

23

A.

Yeah, he was a squad leader.

E0077

75

Another instance I saw.

Were out at the TCP.

We called

it the bullshit TCP because it was a complete joke.

I mean C-wire

was our best defense and we had already been hit by a midnight ambush

or guys firing at us with AK-47s.

Private, Private Lanford.

physically fit guy, but hes there because he wanted to make his dad

proud.

his country proud.

do the duty.

Now, hes a--I never heard of anybody having a problem

10

with Lanford.

I had perfect interaction with him.

11

wasnt the best physically fit guy, but then again, you know, Im

12

always going to the gym and that was what I do.

13

everybody.

14

because if he didnt pass his PT test, why did he get deployed?

So were at this TCP and theres a

Hes again, like Howard, hes not the best

He wanted to make--from what I understood, he wanted to make

He was there to do the service and, you know, to

Not everybody can do that.

15

Q.

Right.

16

A.

Right.

You know, he

Thats not for

He passed his PT test,

So thats nothing to do with--thats not my issues

17

because Im a private first class.

18

good-hearted guy whos there to do his job.

19

middle of a war zone at a TCP thats been hit before, in a platoon

20

that has a[n] [area known for IEDs and attacks]--you know, in order to

21

get to this TCP we have to go down what we call IED lane or IED

22

alley because theres always IEDs that are blowing up our trucks.

23

So were dealing with a combat situation.

24

there, Lanfords on guard duty and whats happening

76

E0078

But what Im seeing here is a

Now, were out in the

Now, Im sitting

is the platoon sergeant and another private are browbeating him

because of his personal life, because of his personal issues.

Theyre literally sitting there making fun of him and hitting him in

every way they can about his personal life while hes on guard duty

just for the fun of it.

Q.

This was Hine?

A.

Yeah.

Now, I dont care what kind of sense of humor you

have and I dont care if Lanford was taking it easy [not getting upset].

Hes the type of guy whos going to do that. But were in the middle of a

10

war zone.

11

who are happily going off of each others charisma or enthusiasm for

12

the situation, and are giving him a hard time, and are hassling him

13

about his own personal life.

14

my drill sergeant showed me the NCO Creed.

15

of it is, I am a professional.

16

one is more professional than I.

17

that there are two missions, there are two main priorities, your

18

mission and the welfare of your men.

19

Thats what they should be holding themselves to.

20

enough NCOs out there say that if you want to know how to be an NCO,

21

the first two paragraphs of the NCO creed is what you need to know.

22

So Lanfords having trouble.

23

Hes not the type of guy who likes fights.

E0079

This is our platoon sergeant whos ganging up with a private,

Now at the time, I was not an NCO, but

And the very first line

The very first line of it is, No

And in that NCO Creed is the words

All right.

Thats their creed.

And Ive heard

Hes not the most physically fit guy.

77

Hes not the type of guy

who thinks its cool to get into--who wants to get into a firefight,

who wants to go out and do that job, who wants to go and do the

close-quarters, lets raid a house, lets search, lets do this,

lets do that.

his dad is proud of him.

American and hes doing what he believes is his duty.

at home--the personal issues that theyre--Im not going to bring any

more details up, but his personal issues that theyre hassling him

about had to do with him and his wife, his wife whos back in

Hes not that guy.

Hes the guy whos there because

Hes the guy whos there because hes an

His wife back

10

America.

11

easily be killed.

12

on their part.

13

was doing that.

14

private was like, before he--at NTC he had said, Well, my philosophy

15

is to each their own, let everybody do whatever they want.

16

tried to call him into check by saying, Youre contradicting

17

yourself by hassling him because your philosophy is let everyone do

18

what they--you know, to each their own.

19

about his own personal life.

20

tried to call him into check but I cant call Sergeant Hine into

21

check.

22

Q.

E0080

And hes in the middle of a combat zone where he could

Yeah, thats really good morale-boosting actions

So Sergeant Hine was doing that.

The other private

I tried to call the private into check because the

So I

But youre hassling him

Youre contradicting yourself.

Right.

78

A.

Because hes a platoon sergeant.

The only other person who

can call him into check is Sergeant Duffy who was sitting right next

to him letting him do that.

obviously the TCP was a complete joke, but the first time we got to

that TCP there was an observation post up on the hill behind it.

few hills before it.

driven up there in the middle of the day.

observation post and its big enough for two guys to sit in it.

for some reason, I dont know why, it was either Sergeant Hine or

Now not to mention that this TCP that--

Now the first day I am up on the OP.

We get

We get up to the

10

Sergeant Duffy, they send up to the top, I think, six guys.

11

means the situation we were blatantly placed in on that OP in the

12

middle of a town, basically.

13

meters, probably closer, to us, down that little hill.

14

funny little hill, like the TCP--Im sure youve seen the maps.

15

Q.

This is Mest?

16

A.

Yeah, this is Mest.

But

So that

I mean, the town was literally 50

Now, its a

We were out of sight of our guys.

The

17

only other people who had eyes on our [DUSTWUN] OP were the Afghans.

18

Now, were out of sight from our guys.

19

enough for two guys to be under cover, protected.

20

guys up there.

21

do rotations, hour rotations.

22

the OP on this little hill that has absolutely no cover and there was

23

a cemetery behind it.

E0081

Were on an OP thats big

And weve got six

I think it was at least six because we were going to

So the rest of us are standing behind

Were standing on this hill in full view of

79

the town, in full view of the country, the farmland, down there.

Theres a road that drives by.

up there and see us.

the bottom to the top, maybe less.

get to the top if you just pushed up it.

So here we are.

day were standing out there, thats it.

So the sergeants that were

up there were like, Okay, everybody lie down on the ground and dont

get up unless you have to.

in the middle of an Afghan summer.

Every person that drives by can look

The hill is maybe 30 meters to the top, from

It would take you 15 seconds to

Low profile.

The first

So we all lie down there

In the middle of Afghanistan on a

10

hill.

We dont have to worry about the Taliban trying to kill us.

11

All we have to worry about is the sun killing us from heatstroke.

12

And, in fact, one of our sergeants had to be evacuated off that OP

13

because of heatstroke.

14

there and suddenly he gets up.

15

diarrheas running down his legs.

16

the only explanation would be heatstroke because thats the only

17

thing that was up there and it was blazingly hot and we had no shade.

18

All we had was water to keep us cool.

19

there.

20

Wheres our protective cover?

21

that were completely blind at night.

22

side.

23

fire from our OP doesnt cover that side.

I mean, literally, one moment hes sitting

Hes pulling his pants down and
And we get him off the hill and

And we were just lying out

So were out there throughout the day.

Nighttime comes.

The Afghans are placed in such a way

Anybody could come up the

Their sector of fire doesnt cover that side and our sector of

E0082

80

Were completely open and

the town is right there.

And the stupid labyrinth of weird alleys

and everything were right there and the giant walls.

on down there.

there.

comes and our orders are basically put your sleeping bags in a

haphazard tactical position around behind the OP.

was the safety.

orders to fortify the position.

who were up there that ordered digging supplies and sandbags to be

We have no eyes

We dont know how many people are piling up down

We have nothing like that.

So the middle of the nighttime

That was it.

That

Theyre the ones that put us up there and we had no

It was one of the young sergeants

10

brought up as well as a Hesco barrier to be used as shade to be

11

brought up.

12

we started digging a hole and digging a hole big enough for at least

13

six guys plus weapons, plus gear, plus provisions.

14

hole.

15

to be a fortified position.

And we--it was his orders to fortify that position and

It was a big

And it had to be deep enough, and with sandbags on the side,

So we started digging that.

16

Q.

Who was the NCO who took that initiative?

17

A.

It was Sergeant Leatherman.

18

Q.

Leatherman.

19

A.

Yeah, it was Sergeant Leatherman.

So he took that

20

initiative.

21

in the midst of digging that hole, in the morning we get a call from

22

the TCP, a radio call, that says the BC is in a convoy heading this

23

direction.

E0083

Now, in the midst of the next day--not the next day but

Now, were like, Okay.

81

CDC: Actually, hold on a second.

convoy.

all but I dont want to doze off here.

4
5

Make a note, the BC is in a

Lets make a breakpoint here because I dont know about you

Q.

Okay.

Thats fine.

Youre talking about the battalion

commander?

A.

CDC: Right, so lets take another mini-break.

A.

Yes.

And I should say that my time at the--my explanations

arent going chronologically.

10

Q.

No, I understand.

11

A.

Im just giving you events.

12

Q.

Yeah, dont worry.

13

we know if its important.

14

may not be important.

15

out.

Im not giving you timelines.

Ill sort them together based on what

Some of it may get to a chronology but it

If the chronology is important, well sort it

16

A.

Yeah, okay.

17

Q.

So not a problem.

Okay.

Good.

18

right.

19

[The interview recessed on 6 August 2014.]

20

[The interview resumed on 6 August 2014.]

21

Q.

Okay.

Lets take a break.

So where we left was you told me about Staff

22

Sergeant Duffy, Corporal Gaughan, Staff Sergeant Komes, Sergeant

23

First Class Hine.

E0084

Obviously a sort of a trend of frustration and

82

All

disappointment with some of the non-commissioned officers not leading

in the ideal sense that you described earlier.

A.

Yeah, yeah.

Q.

And so that, you know, has kind of been mounting.

Sergeant

Leatherman being one who took some initiative without any orders to

kind of do what he believed to be, you know, a smart move there.

A.

Yeah, yeah.

Q.

And then you get word, somebody calls up to the OP, I

9
10

guess, from the COP, they call up to the OP and say, Hey, the
battalion commanders on his way out there in a convoy.

11

A.

Yeah.

12

Q.

Is that right?

13

A.

Yeah.

All right.

So another detail I should add was the

14

fact that so we get this call, The battalion commanders on his way

15

out on a convoy.

16

open for a convoy, whether the BCs on it or not.

17

business.

18

Sergeant Lewis says, You know, technically the BC shouldnt be

19

leaving the FOB or being in the field like that.

20

private first class.

21

of our business.

22

doing because its our immediate job, digging the hole to get

E0085

Were up on the OP.

All right.

The BC does what he wants to do.

Roger that, eyes

Its none of our

One of the sergeants,

Whatever, Im a

We talk about whatever they do, but its none

So we go back to doing what we know we should be

83

fortified for the next night because none of us want to have a

grenade dropped on us overnight.

Q.

Right.

A.

Or our throats slit.

So were focusing on that.

Now, the

sergeants that were up there made another common sense call.

Based

on the fact that we were put up there with no protection to begin

with, theyre going off the idea that security--and quick side note

here.

was.

When I got there, nobody told me what the security situation

Nobody told me how active the Taliban are in this area.

Nobody

10

told me what the proper guidelines were to dealing with everyday

11

being out there in the field.

12

me down and gave me an explanation that theres sniper attacks here.

13

Theres continuous this.

14

Obviously, its IEDs.

15

Okay, this is what they are.

16

theres Taliban directly here, that theyre working with--none of

17

that.

18

enough for two guys and the rest of us are supposed to be standing

19

out doing nothing.

20

their part or they knew that they were doing that and the reason why

21

they did that was because there was no problem in that area, which

22

was a joke because it was a big problem in that area.

23

down something we call IED lane, which means theres somebody there

No one told me anything.

No one sat

Their theme in this area is this:

I picked that up right away.

But nobody said,

Were in a hostile area.

We know that

So we get put up on this OP the first day out there thats big

E0086

Well, now either its just complete error on

84

Wed drive

putting IEDs in the lane every time we drive down it--or IED alley.

Im a private first class.

Im not going to question people at that time.

there like a private does and go, This is kind of stupid, but Im

not going to say anything else, you know?

supposed to be doing.

fortify this position.

had already been evacuated for a heat casualty.

of an Afghanistan summer, in the middle of an Afghan day, working.

Im not thinking at that point in time.

Im going to sit

This is what were

It made sense when the sergeant said, Lets

It made sense.

So common sense, one of us

Were in the middle

10

We started in the morning and were working toward the middle of the

11

day.

12

rattle is a really stupid thing to do.

13

here with no protection.

14

rattle off, put it within arms reach and get this hole dug before

15

the nighttime comes and we lose visual.

16

the other Soldiers up there] thinking. All right. I am not going to question

17

it, all right?

18

us are going to grumble about it, but lets get this hole dug because it is

19

obviously for our safety. And, plus, we are going to put shade up and

20

we needed shade.

21

distinctly remember Sergeant Leatherman calling down to the TCP and

22

asking for what it is the--What is the call for uniform up here?

23

We got a vague answer of, you know--I dont remember the exact words,

All right, common sense says digging a hole in full battle

E0087

All right?

They put us up

Common sense says, okay, take your battle

That is the theme theyre [me and

It sucks digging a hole and, you know, of course, a few of

So, we are digging this hole out of kit. Now, I

85

but it was a vague answer of just what it should [be]. Just whatever.

Your discernment or something.

was no distinct, You guys need to be in such and such body armor and

such and such if you are not doing this or if you are doing this.

There was nothing like that.

I dont remember the exact conversation.

Q.

It was left open basically.

There

It was left very open and very vague.

Who would he have been calling?

I mean, did you guys have

like a little CP set-up or was it the platoon leader or the platoon

sergeant in his truck?

10

A.

Yeah.

Yeah, we just had those short wave radios and they

11

just push-to-talk and all that nonsense.

I dont know who it was he

12

was talking to.

13

So, all right, Roger that.

14

about doing what we were supposed to be doing.

15

starts coming down the road.

16

in OP1, We got a convoy.

17

is coming.

18

The guys in the OP are doing what they are doing.

19

we are supposed to be doing.

20

convoy gets closer.

21

All right.

22

right.

23

the heat wave, we are already--you know, even with just a blasted t-

It might have been Sergeant Hein or Sergeant Duffy.

Lets get this hole dug.

We were going

BC and his convoy

Hey, guys, we got a convoy.

Heads up.

All right.

His business, not our business.

The guys

Roger that.

Our business is here.

We are doing what

So, we continued doing that.

So, a

The sergeant says, like from what I remember,

Put your body armor on just so we have body armor.

All

Put the body armor on, which sucked because in the middle of

E0088

86

BC

shirt on, digging a stupid hole, we are already drenched in sweat,

and dust, and grime. If you put body armor on, it just adds to the

irritation and all that.

put our body armor on. The convoy draws level to our TCP and stops.

It was supposed to--what we heard was it was just supposed to drive

past, but it stops.

guys in the OP say, Hey, guys, the BC is out of the truck, coming up

the hill.

Paktika Afghan mayor, province mayor. So, a big guy.

[Snaps]

So, all right, put the body armor on.

We are like, Okay, whatever.

We

Suddenly, the

By himself, followed by an entourage of a

The big shot

10

and his entourage are coming up the hill. He doesnt have any

11

security. He doesnt have anything like that.

12

M-14--or his M-4 and his plates.

13

charges up the hill and he gets to the top.

14

are going, Good grief.

15

here.

16

security, you know, pull 360 security like we should do.

17

have--we are dropping shovels.

18

He comes basically as fast as he could and he is in fairly good

19

shape, because that is kind of his point of pride. He like--back in

20

the battalion, he would lead battalion runs.

21

up the hill; not a very tall hill to begin with.

22

We are scrambling to get our K-pots on because we are more interested

23

in security up.

He comes up with his

His body armor and his K-pot.

He

We are scrambling.

We

We have a battalion commander suddenly up

So, we are scrambling for K-pots and our weapons to pull

E0089

So, we

We are scrambling for those things.

So, he comes charging

He gets to the top.

So, one of the guys throws my K-pot.

87

Well, what

happens is, he takes one look at what is--he takes one look at us out

of battle rattle.

are scrambling to get our weapons.

that happened and I will give you what I saw, and what was going on

in my mind.

We dont have tools in our hands or anything.

Actions that happened:

We

Now, what happen--the actions

He gets up there. He sees what is

going on.

He gets immediately in the face, literally chest to chest

with Sergeant Leatherman.

was no--there was no question--there was no space in his--in what he

In his face.

Aggressive behavior.

There

10

was saying.

Like, he asked the question, What is going on here but

11

there was no space in there that--he wasnt expecting an answer.

12

Q.

Right.

13

A.

He was asking, What is going on and then basically

14

asserting--going directly after that and asserting himself as, I

15

am----

16

Q.

One way conversation?

17

A.

Yeah.

All right. Roger that.

I am looking--I am

18

supposed to be pulling security, but something tells me that I should

19

watch this.

20

there is open valley in front of me.

21

that way is pretty minimal; however, what I was seeing was pretty

22

disturbing.

23

with the BC and I will explain that later.

E0090

All right.

So, I do that because there is, you know,

So, chances of a threat coming

And this actually happened after another event happened

88

So, turned to look and I am watching.

And as he gets done

with talking to Sergeant Leatherman--and the Afghan guys and his

entourage are up there.

like the one patch of the hill that does have graves on the top of

the hill.

the graveyard in Afghanistan, they build them--they raise them up off

the ground.

Now, we are directly off--we are directly on

The hill is the town graveyard.

Q.

Right.

A.

Exactly.

And if you havent seen

Rocks, and little flags, and sticks.

It looks like a graveyard.

It is obviously a

10

graveyard. So, what I saw was he turns away from Sergeant Leatherman.

11

So, if I am Sergeant Leatherman, he is standing here.

12

entourage of Afghans over here.

13

of what is going on. [Demonstrating.] He turns around.

14

direction.

15

something that you would see a child do.

16

does this trembling of anger.

17

as he can, to the point that his boot toe comes level to his chest,

18

one of the graves.

19

rocks from the corner of it.

20

Now, I saw that, and because of the way that I grew up, knowing--

21

being aware of other cultures, and traditions, and such like that, I

22

immediately look at the Afghan guys.

23

the leaders are supposed to not show any type of emotion.

E0091

He has got his M-4.

There is an

I am standing here in perfect view

He faces that

And what I saw was literally

He scrunches up and like

And then he steps and kicks, as hard

And he hits it hard enough that it dislodges

They clatter down into the ground.

And because of their culture,

89

But, the

guys that were with him, they immediately look to him, their leader,

with the look of shock and anger on their faces. And they are looking

at him like, Are you going to do something or what?

until later when I was actually talking to a guy, a Taliban, who

spoke some English, and I asked him this: If somebody kicks your

grave, what do you do? And they tell me, If they do it on purpose,

we are supposed to kill them.

supposed to tell them not to do it.

commander, who has been through--who has sent down the briefs of,

And it wasnt

If they do it by accident, then we are

So, coming from a battalion

10

Hey, we are ISAF, International Security Assistance Force.

11

supposed to be working with the Afghans.

12

the COIN.

13

supposed to be representing America over here. Now, in America, if

14

you kick graves, we are going to have a problem with it.

15

two things occurred to my mind at that point.

16

on purpose, which is going--a direct insult to these people and he is

17

the battalion commander and this guy is the province mayor.

And he

18

has seen this guy disrespect something as sacred as a grave.

So,

19

either, one, he did it on purpose, which is going against everything

20

that we were taught about trying to work with these people, which

21

goes against everything that America stands for, as far as, the

22

respect that we are supposed to--which was built in our Constitution

23

of liberty.

E0092

We are

We are supposed to be doing

We are supposed to be working with these guys.

We are

So, either

Either, one, he did it

It goes against, you know, what the Armys agenda--well,

90

what we are told the Armys agenda is over there.

over the country.

We are not taking

We are trying to help these people, right?

Q.

Mm-hmm.

A.

Or, the second thing is, that went through my mind, was, as

a battalion commander, he just lost his temper so badly in the middle

of a combat zone, in front of his men, and a prestigious guest, that

he didnt know what he was doing.

not in check of his temper, who is going to do something as drastic

as that from his inability to conduct himself befitting his rank,

He is a battalion commander who is

10

befitting his position.

And it also occurred to me, after--so, after

11

he does this, he charges off down the trail that takes him to the

12

TCP.

13

appeared to my mind was--because we are thinking, Why in the world

14

did the battalion commander come out here in the first place?

15

it just so happened that that time that we went out to the TCP, a

16

British photo journalist working for the Guardian decided to come out

17

to the TCP with us.

18

got a platoon manning it.

19

the battalion commander comes out here, why?

20

stayed out there for the rest of the day.

21

But, there is a British photo journalist there.

22

photo journalist also took pictures of us.

23

pictures was of me with a tobacco pipe in my mouth.

Now, that is the last we see of him.

E0093

All right.

After this, what also

Well,

This tiny little Podunk TCP that has

It is a complete joke to begin with.

91

And

I am pretty sure he

I wasnt down by the TCP.

And that British

And one of the infamous

All right.

I am

not the only person in military history that smoked a tobacco pipe.

I dont smoke cigarettes.

CDC: MacArthur.

A.

Yeah.

MacArthur smoked the blasted corn cob pipe that

looked ridiculous.

And I dont smoke cigarettes, but every now and

again I smoke a tobacco pipe, which is completely different than

smoking cigarettes.

Q.

Yeah.

A.

Tobacco pipes are like cigars.

You are not supposed to inhale it.

You are supposed to taste

10

it.

So, every now and again I

11

would smoke a tobacco pipe.

12

You know, I am embarrassed to admit this, but you know, there is a

13

British photo journalist there.

14

pipe for----

15

Q.

To pose a little bit?

16

A.

Yeah, to pose a little bit.

17

Q.

Sure.

18

A.

It happens.

19

Q.

Sure.

20

A.

You know, it is the camera.

Now, am I embarrassed to admit this?

Perhaps I pulled out the tobacco

Right.
It is going to do that.

21

also knew that the British--you know, it is British photo journalist.

22

The British would have an affinity for that kind of a classic looking

23

thing.

So, that was one of the pictures.

E0094

92

He also took a couple of other pictures of a guy smoking in

a gun turret, which you know, considering we are coming from the

military that used to issue in MREs cigarettes, that is not an

unusual thing.

the blasted grey hours, from going night time to morning, he was

haggard.

shift.

Smoking on a gun turret during guard shift and it is

He was trying to keep himself awake.

It is not a nice

Q.

Right.

A.

So, it is a picture of him standing there.

He is staring out into his sector of fire.

He just looks

10

haggard.

11

cigarette in his hands.

12

war picture to me.

13

pictures.

14

get back to the FOB [Sharana], after we finish our shift out at the

15

TCP, we get back to the FOB.

16

into the office.

17

He calls my platoon child rapists.

18

rapists.

19

an entire village in Vietnam.

20

it, 1968, when over 300 civilians were massacred in My Lai.

It looks like a pretty typical

There is another picture.

There is a few other

Now, that combination of what happened that day, when we

Immediately the sergeants are called

The platoon or the batt commander goes off on them.

We are like a bunch of child

He calls us--our actions were as bad as if we had murdered

21

CDC: My Lai.

22

A.

23

CDC: My Lai.

E0095

All right.

And he has a

Now, you can go back to 19--what is

My Lai.

93

A.

All right.

Pictures and a misunderstood circumstance, and

you are going to insult us by comparing us to psychopathic massacring

of villagers, women, and children, and rape, and everything else that

happened in that period of, you know, that war, and child rapists.

And you are going to give us--he pushed out Article 15s for the

entire platoon.

sergeants that were--Sergeant Leatherman and Sergeant Louis were

demoted from sergeants.

know what happened to them.

I signed an Article 15 for that.

He demoted the two

They were supposed to be demoted.

I dont

But, that was what the word was.

Now,

10

in my mind, what I saw that day was somebody that was not fit for

11

that leadership, because a real leader would have gotten to the top

12

of that hill and they would have looked at what was going on and they

13

would have known that, Hey, the safety of my men is foremost concern

14

in my mind.

15

battle zone, which is jeopardizing their safety.

16

understand why they are doing this.

17

situation.

18

getting mad at them, getting in their face, losing my temper, that is

19

not their well-being.

20

thoughtful person that was going to listen to their men, and figure

21

out what the problem is and correct it, that is what a leader would

22

do.

23

only for him, for his men, but for America, because we are there as

These guys are out of battle rattle in the middle of a

I need to

I need to understand the

Because if their well-being is foremost in my mind,

Setting an example of a calm-minded,

Not losing their temper and causing, you know, a bad image, not

E0096

94

representatives of America.

That is why we wear the flag.

That is

why we wear the uniforms.

there.

Come over here, Sergeant.

situation so that I understand, because I am seeing some severe

safety issues.

loses his temper and then he condemns us for it.

it.

were doing a common sense thing and who were trying to reduce the

10

risk of heat casualty, who were put into a bad situation to begin

11

with it because the platoon sergeants put us up there on an

12

unprotected, unfortified position, and left us just standing up

13

there.

14

things getting worse.

15

this happened, another thing happened with the battalion commander.

W e are representing America when we are

So, instead of being the calm-minded person who says, Okay.

What is going on here?

He doesnt do that.

Explain the

Instead, what does he do?

He

He insults us for

He charges us with an Article 15 and he demotes the guys who

So, I am looking at this whole situation and I am seeing

16

And this wasnt an isolated situation.

Before

So, this incident started as a routine, six-hour mission.

17

We were the quick response force, my platoon.

18

to escort EOD out to a site where an IED had been spotted, blow it

19

up, escort EOD back to the FOB.

20

had been doing for weeks.

21

driving back to the FOB.

22

get to the FOB.

23

vehicle to an IED.

E0097

And we were supposed

This was a routine mission that we

So, we do this.

We accomplish it.

We are

The mission gets extended before we even

A platoon up on a mountain plateau has just lost a

They cant get the vehicle off the plateau.
95

You

need to escort a wrecker up there to get the vehicle.

that.

Our six-hour mission just got extended.

there.

We get up--we are going up the switchbacks to the mountain

plateau.

enough to blow out the side of the mountain and our vehicle goes

tumbling off into the valley.

kill any of the guys in the MRAP.

out and then you have to tow and ram the stupid thing up the tiny

little dirt roads to get up to the mountain.

10

One of our vehicles hits an IED.

Okay.

Roger

So, we drive out

Thankfully, it is not big

Thankfully, it is not big enough to

It just disables it. They crawl

Now we are on the mountain plateau and we have two vehicles

11

down.

We have one wrecker and the mechanics that went up there with

12

us are looking at the vehicles and going, They are blown up.

13

cant--it is not putting a tire on and driving them down.

14

that is what they wanted us to do.

15

So, we spend close to seven days up there.

16

mission, we are not prepared for a six-day stay out in the field.

17

So, they had to literally low-altitude air drop MREs and water onto

18

the mountain plateau for us to stay up there.

19

for close to seven days.

20

reports of command is calling up saying, Hey, you guys, you need to

21

fix the vehicles and drive them down.

22

the LT was calling back going, They are blown up and the mechanics

23

are saying that they are not going to be able to fix them and drive

E0098

You

Because

That is what the orders were.

A routine six-hour

So, we are up there

During those days, there is multiple

96

The mechanics and I believe

them down.

You cant air lift an MRAP off the mountain.

kind of goes on for the next couple of days.

there.

guys in an MRAP at night, which is like ridiculous.

like, Whatever.

dusty environment.

So, this

We are just sitting

We are sleeping every--you know, we are sleeping like five

We cant do anything.

So, we are just

We got bottles of water in a

We are just scraping by like we are supposed to.

Finally, another platoon gets up there to relieve us with

another wrecker and like a more prepared team of mechanics.

supposed to do whatever they can do. So, we are just supposed to

Now, this is a mountain plateau.

They are

10

leave.

There is only a few ways on

11

and off.

12

where we were at was like an Afghan Police like fort; small, tiny,

13

little cement fort [OMNA District Center].

14

there, the Taliban had attacked that fort in the night.

15

Taliban in the area.

16

only a couple of ways on and off.

17

off, which is one of the sketchiest things that you can take an MRAP

18

over.

The Taliban, only a few nights before had been--the area

Prior to us getting up
So, there is

The IEDs on the road are proof of it.

There is

The Army scouts find another way

So, that is what we are supposed to leave over.

19

We go up another pass.

We make it up over the mountain

20

pass.

Thankfully, the Taliban arent smart enough to place IEDs

21

where they could have placed IEDs, because they would have put our

22

trucks down the mountainside by just a tiny little popper.

So, we

23

get up and we get to the other side of this mountain pass.

We are

E0099

97

going down.

We have got a wooded mountainside directly next to us on

this road.

command wired IED blows up the EODs vehicle; sets off a complex

attack because we got--I heard RPGs going across, because rocket

engines make a very specific noise.

burning through a quarter inch plate.

going to burn through a quarter-inch steel plate that is on an MRAP

and neither is an RPK.

that they had some funky rounds out there that were probably coming

Literally, maybe 8 feet, 10 feet away from the trucks.

There was bullets that were

Now, typical AK-47s arent

Possible chance, the better suggestion is

10

from China or Russia, or whatever that was, some kind of homemade

11

armor piercing.

12

directly behind the lieutenants vehicle.

13

an RI, Ranger Instructor.

14

It is not that hard to do.

So, the EOD vehicle is

The lieutenant used to be

So, what happens is the lieutenant and the guys in his

15

truck dismount in the middle of the firefight, to hook up the tow bar

16

to the EODs vehicle to get them out of there.

17

wooded hillside on one side.

18

bed on this side and more rocks and woods over on this side.

19

Completely open, except for the wood.

20

within 12 feet of us, behind the trees, directly next to us, firing

21

at us.

22

going across the road in front of us firing AKs at us.

Well, we have got a

We got a bunch of--we have got a river

The Taliban are literally

We have got guys--I am in the front truck.

E0100

98

And there is guys

This is a

full on firefight.

hooks the tow bar.

The lieutenant dismounts once with his guys,

CDC: This is on the Mesa or on the way down?

A.

CDC: Okay.

A.

more down.

terrain.

This is on our way down.

In Afghanistan, there is always more up and there is always

It is ridiculous mountains.

So, the tow bar comes off.

They hook it up.

It is just ridiculous

So, he has to dismount a second

10

time.

11

support over head.

12

EODs vehicle out of that area off into the road.

13

nighttime is upon us.

We dont lose anybody.

14

hit, nobody gets hurt.

Nobody gets killed.

15

nobody gets hit.

16

the night.

17

wrecker.

18

the FOB and our convoy stops to make its typical check at the FOB

19

entrance.

20

battalion commander, was waiting for us.

21

that the first words that came out of his mouth were not, Good job

22

out there.

23

you guys.

E0101

We get it hooked up. Suddenly we have air

The firefight dies off.

Nobody gets hurt.

We pull and ram the

And by this time,

The two IEDs that we

The complex attack,

We survived it.

We make it into

The next morning we get met by another platoon and a

They pull us into the FOB.

Now, we get to the entrance of

Word comes down through the radios that the BC, the
Word immediately comes down

Were not, Hey, you didnt lose anybody.

Good job.

I am proud of

It wasnt, Hey, how is everybody doing?

99

Is

everybody okay?

I know that you went through a few things.

something that you are not putting out over the radio? It wasnt any

of this.

thing that came out of his mind, as it came down the line and the

radio was, our platoon sergeant stepped out of the truck onto the

ground and the BC said to him, What, you couldnt shave?

concern was that after our extended mission for six-days, after our

two IEDs and a complex attack, after making it back finally, after

all this mess, his main concern was the fact that, as Soldiers, we

There was no concern for his mens well-being.

Is there

The first

His main

10

didnt think it was important to pack a shaver and shaving cream.

11

And, as Soldiers, who are living in the back of an MRAP, in a dusty

12

environment, sweating our asses off, it probably wasnt a good idea

13

to cut your face open to begin with, because you are probably going

14

to get an infection.

15

well as the fact that we didnt--when we are carrying already 100

16

plus extra pounds of weight, an extra shaver and shaving cream,

17

trying to jam that into our packs, isnt going to be our main

18

concern.

19

packing our assault packs and getting ready to go out into a combat

20

zone.

21

That was our least concern at that point, as

It is not going to be our main priority when it comes to

His disgust for it was so prominent apparently that when we

22

got back to the barracks, the first order wasnt, Go gas up the

23

vehicles and prep them.

E0102

The first order wasnt, Download all the

100

weapons and get them cleaned and prepped for the next mission. The

first order wasnt, Hey, guys, go get a warm bite to eat. You did

good out there and now we can finally relax.

first order was, You guys who havent had a shower and you have

about six days of grime all over your bodies, you need to go wash

immediately.

Or, you need to go, not wash, You need to go shave

immediately.

Not shower and shave.

just need to go shave immediately.

immediately.

It wasnt that.

Not wash your faces off.

The

You

So, we had to go shave

I was looking at myself in the mirror and I have like

10

a ring where my eyes are and the rest of it is just dirt.

11

situation happened.

12

that I heard from the BC.

Okay.

13

all right.

He had issues with the way we appeared--our

14

appearance.

15

interested in treating this war zone as his personal fashion show and

16

not having any concern for the welfare of his Soldiers.

17

Isolated situation.

18

back of my mind.

19

the set up to what happened at the TCP.

And I was like--that was the first interaction

Understood.
Okay.

So, that

Fine.

If that was an isolated situation,

What it looked like to me was, he was more

Let it go.

Okay.

But, it is still going to sit in the

And it is adding up at this point.

So, that was

20

Q.

Right.

21

A.

And the TCP was a setup to what happened when we got back

22
23

and the Article 15 that I had signed.

Q.

E0103

And that was at Sharana?

101

A.

That was at Sharana.

Now, at this point, I am thinking

seriously of going Special Forces.

I had gone to one of those

recruiting meetings before I deployed from Richardson.

a joke that in order to join the Special Forces, you have to have at

least one Article 15.

getting an Article 15 because he is judging us for his own--he is

basically kangaroo court out in the field.

is--for pictures and a miscommunicated and misunderstood situation,

now we have Article 15s, on top of the insult that he decided that we

That is their joke.

Now, there is

You know, here I am

He is insulting us.

10

deserved for his own misinterpretation and his own lacking of

11

leadership skills.

12

So, all of these events piled up onto each other.

And this

13

was the climax.

14

were getting bad.

15

told me.

But, like one night, Nascimento was guarding the trucks at

16

the FOB.

And I went out there and I told him, Hey, at least things

17

cant get any worse.

18

everything can always, always get worse.

19

saw that happening.

20

15s, basically everything--you know, it was--I believe the first

21

sergeant was going to get replaced by another first sergeant and

22

things were happening.

23

going to pause really quick here and do a hindsight 20/20.

E0104

The Article 15 was the climax of it all.

He

Things

And it was only going to get worse as Nascimento

And he shook his head and he said, No,

And he was right.

And I

And I saw things after that, after the Article

And what I was looking at was--now, I am

102

Q.

Okay.

A.

A young PFC, private, first deployment.

First--his

experience in the Army.

That is what I was looking at.

All right.

I was looking at my immediate surroundings.

Well, this is just 501st Airborne unit.

you know, I was--you know, like generally comparing the 1-501st to

the rest of the Army. That is kind of what it came off as.

of saying, Well, this is just this unit.

command.

I wasnt looking at,

I was just looking at my,

Instead

This is just this

My experience of the Army, my understanding of the Army

10

was very limited.

11

the research in all of the things that you can do.

12

Hollywood idea or military law was a Hollywood idea.

13

know how that worked.

14

you go up through the command and it is open door policy.

15

That is all I knew.

16

perspective.

17

had a lot of ideas.

18

know, impatient, and somebody who doesnt like standing by and not

19

doing something about something.

20

situation that needs to be corrected or that needs something to

21

happen.

This was my first time.

I didnt do

JAG was a
I didnt really

The only thing I knew about my command was,

Right.

So, what I was looking at was, from a PFCs

And I will admit, honestly, an ignorant, young man, who

He was seeing what he was seeing.

And, you

Not doing something about a

That is what I was seeing.

22
23

I was a PFC.

Now, my platoon was suddenly taking fire from the command.

My guys that I--my friends that were on that platoon were dealing

E0105

103

with bullshit from our sergeants in that platoon.

Our first sergeant

didnt care what was going on.

there for a paycheck.

know.

wasnt--he didnt seem to be interacting the way that a first

sergeant should.

have no idea.

leader or a sergeant.

From my impression of the guy, he was

Whether or not that was true or not, I dont

But, from my impression, that was kind of what, you know, he

What it was--I dont know.

What his issues were, I

Maybe that was just the way he thought he should be a

So, I was looking at this situation and I was seeing it

10

getting worse.

11

worst case.

12

happen?

13

my platoon, as this stain on his reputation.

14

suicide mission wouldnt be the first in military history.

15

doing--somebody giving out an order on personal agendas or off of

16

personal grievances, it is not going to be a first in military

17

history.

18

got to the unit in Afghanistan--when I first got to my unit in

19

Afghanistan, we were supposed to go on what could literally be

20

considered a suicide mission in that terrain.

21

first days there, we were supposed to go on a dismounted assault on a

22

mountain stockade, a mountain fort or something where there is

23

supposed to be Taliban.

E0106

My mind goes into simulation mode and I am looking at

I am looking at, Take the issues here and what could

What could happen is this battalion commander could see us,

Now, sending us on a

So, worst case scenario, what happens?

All right.
104

Somebody

Well, when I first

My first day, like my

What we were supposed to do:

were prepping for this mission.

We are literally at the prepping

stage, packing our assault bags and getting ready for it.

told, MREs for two days, extra water for two days, extra ammo all

into your assault packs.

going to carry on your back.

amount of food, and the amount of ammunition that you can fit into an

assault pack is a lot.

right now, in the middle of the summer, with 100 plus pounds of extra

gear, you are going to be sweating so badly in a ruck march, in just

We were

All into your assault bags that you are

Now, the amount of water, and the

But, it is, in that terrain, I will tell you

10

regular ruck march down the road, you are going to be sweating so

11

badly that the amount of water that you can fit into your assault bag

12

isnt going to be enough.

13

with not only a heat wave.

14

right.

15

We dont have the top of the elite of the elite PT scores.

16

got Howard.

17

was, you know, he is a power mule.

18

endurance is only so much.

19

with his body weight and he is a SAW gunner.

20

assault.

21

it was an eight-mile ruck into the assault point on foot, through the

22

mountains.

23

to pick up zone.

We are in Afghanistan. We are dealing

We are dealing with elevation.

All

Not all of our guys--you know, we are not the Ranger unit.

E0107

We got, you know, we got all these guys.

We have

Even Logan who

He lifts huge weights.

His

He is carrying a huge amount of weight

We were supposed to

I dont know the exact mileage, but it was something like--

Assault on the target and then like a four-mile ruck out

In that terrain of Afghanistan, with all that
105

weight, with guys who are not ready for this, who are not capable of

it, that is a suicide mission.

of it and they are going to have the full advantage of setting up an

ambush from higher ground.

are exhausted because they have all this weight on their bodies and

it is the middle of a heat wave in the summer.

deal with and suddenly we are going to be thrown into a situation

where people are going to be trying to kill us.

is the home advantage and that goes to the Taliban.

The Taliban are going to catch wind

You have got a whole bunch of guys who

We have enough to

The full advantage

And we were

10

assaulting an actual target.

So, that meant that there were Taliban

11

in that area.

12

ambush on our eight miles, how many hours is that going to take?

13

Then, if they dont have the ability to do that, then on the four-

14

miles out, they are going to have full ability to do something there.

15

So, it was literally, from what we were looking for, or from what I

16

was looking at, and what the rest of us were looking at, was

17

literally, we are prepping for a suicide mission.

18

It was called off. Thankfully, it was called off.

So, even if they didnt have the means to set up an

19

Q.

Do you know who called it off?

20

A.

I have no idea.

21
22

This is stupid.

So, that was prominently in my mind later

down the road when I was thinking, What is going to happen?

CDC: Why was it called off?

E0108

106

A.

It was just called--we were just told that it was called

off.

And everybody assumed it was called off because it was just a

stupid idea.

Q.

Had it begun and then pulled back?

Or, before----

A.

Our prepping for it----

Q.

Before execution?

A.

Yeah, before--we were never moved from the FOB.

Q.

Yeah.

A.

It was in our prep for it that it was called off.

10

everybody simply assumed because it was just a stupid idea.

11

privates knew it was stupid idea.

12

problem was, we were actually prepping for it.

It just made no sense.

And
Even the

But, the

13

Q.

Right.

14

A.

Which meant somebody thought it was a good idea.

15

Q.

Was it a company movement?

Or was it a platoon movement?

16

A.

It was a platoon movement.

Well, from what I understood,

17

it was a platoon movement, but it could have been a company movement.

18

Q.

Okay.

19

A.

So, later on down the road when I started thinking about

20

things, that came into my mind.

21

the battalion commander.

It had to be somebody up there who thought

22

that was a good idea.

So, now suddenly, he has a personal grudge

23

against my platoon.

E0109

And I was like, Who?

It had to be

What is going to stop him from doing something

107

like that?

Who is going to stop him?

Well, is sergeant major going

to stop him?

Sergeant major was one of the guys who signed off on the demotions of

Sergeant Lewis, or Louis, who was up there on the OP.

I could see, the sergeant major was playing the same game and the

sergeant major was also the guy who said, Well, I joined the Army to

rape, pillage, and kill.

discernment of what kind of character you have.

that.

Well, the sergeant major is playing the same game.

So, from what

Well, that is kind of a pretty good

So, I was looking at

I was looking at, you know, what can Captain Silvino

10

[phonetic].

11

What could the first sergeant do?

12

seem to care and he is just--this is his last deployment and he is

13

out of the Army.

14

the boat for himself and he is certainly not going to put his rank

15

out on the line.

16

are the sergeants going to do?

17

of trouble and they just signed the same Article 15 that I signed.

18

They are not going to do anything.

19

anything.

20

what I was looking at was, I was literally looking at from everything

21

that has piled up in the back of my mind as far as my immediate

22

command conducting themselves, all the impressions I got from the

23

command above me.

E0110

Captain Silvino was a good guy, but he is a captain.

Well, the first sergeant doesnt

So, he is not going to want to do anything to rock

And then I looked at my immediate command.

What

Well, they just got in a huge amount

They are not going to say

They are just going to try to dip below the radar.

I was looking at, Well, what do I have?

108

So,

I have

open door policy and I am supposed to go up through my chain of

command.

ability to hold that position was extremely questionable.

was his character or whether it was, I dont know what.

needed to be--from my mind, he needed to have an evaluation.

there needed to be some kind of action, such as an investigation, as

to whether or not these problems needed to be so drastically fixed as

that these guys were pulled out of their positions and replaced.

Something needed to happen. Now, from my point of view, as the PFC,

10

the options that I had was if I wanted something to happen I needed

11

to go to somebody above.

12

would be a general.

13

new to the Army who is apparently, from the Article 15 that I just

14

signed, apparently I am a shit bag, and I am going to walk into a

15

generals office and say, Sir, as a PFC, the battalion commander and

16

all these other guys are unfit for their duty.

17

removed from this duty.

18

and they need to be--an investigation needs to be launched.

From my

19

side, from what I could see, what is the general going to do?

He is

20

going to say, Roger that.

21

[Laughs] Yeah, right.

22

me that the battalion commander isnt fit for duty.

23

the Army, this PFC.

E0111

From what I was seeing was, the battalion commander, his

Whether it
But, he
And

He is the battalion commander, so above

All right.

So, I imagined, here is a PFC just

They need to be

They need to be psychologically evaluated

I am going to leave the room and go,

He is a PFC and he is coming in here telling

He just got into

He is nothing. He is going to call up his

109

buddy, the battalion commander, and say, Hey, what is going on?

The battalion commander is going, Well, that is the guy that I just

gave an Article 15 to because he was out of uniform and he was doing

this, and he was doing this, and he was doing this.

of this platoon that I gave an Article 15 to the entire platoon.

What is the general going to--what conclusion is the general going to

come to?

some stupid reason and I am not going to listen to him when I have a

battalion commander who is saying, Well, officially--.

And he is part

He is going to say, Well, that PFC is just butt-hurt for

He has the

10

fancy speech of being able to say, Well, this platoons showed

11

misconduct and I gave them Article 15s and that is why they have a

12

problem.

13

So, I was looking at that and I was going, That was my

14

option.

Nobody is going to listen to me.

15

anything.

16

sergeant, if I go to my platoon sergeant, if I go to the higher

17

commanders that are under the BC, they are not going to do anything

18

because they dont want to rock the boat.

19

situation that could very easily go south.

20

we get sent on a suicide mission.

21

That is one thing.

22

what happens?

23

gives an order that sends my platoon out into the field and that

E0112

Nobody is going to say

Nobody is going to say anything.

And if I go to my squad

But I was looking at a

Like worst case scenario,

But, all right, but what if?

What if this guy isnt fit for his duty?

Then

I keep quiet and I dont say anything, and this guy

110

order is literally a stupid order that gets one of my guys killed,

one of my friends killed.

because the Taliban succeeded.

the bad order came down and we were placed in a bad situation, and

they died because of that.

How am I going to feel if down the weeks or a few weeks down the

road, I am looking at the dead body of my--or not even a body, you

know, if we can find enough of it.

Howard, or Lanford, or Sergeant Sauer, or Nascimento.

And the reason why he was killed wasnt

The reason why he was killed because

So, I was looking at that and saying,

I am looking at the dead body of

And I am

10

looking at that and I am looking at the situation going, If someone

11

had done something beforehand and called this into check, they would

12

still be alive. You cant [let that happen,] you know, when you have that

13

possibility in the future, you go along the lines of better safe than sorry.

14

So, I had to come up with some plan because I knew nobody

15

else was going to do anything about it.

Everybody else was going to

16

keep their heads down and just try to ride it out.

17

are supposed to do.

18

suck it up.

19

threat.

20

And I saw that somebody needed to do something about it.

21

had to do something that called the situation into check.

22

not--the way I was raised was, if you want a job done, do it

23

yourself.

You are an 11B, hooah.

That is what you

You are supposed to

But, from what I was looking at, I seriously saw a

I seriously saw the possibility of something going wrong.

E0113

Somebody
Now, I am

Or if you want a job done right, do it yourself.

111

You

dont [not do something]--you know, you pull your own weight and you do what

you are supposed to do when you look at it. The advice I got from the guys

when I came in, they told me exactly that.

drill sergeant, told me exactly that.

told me, You know what, you need to be aware of all your

surroundings.

protecting your guys next to you.

being.

playing around. People die on this.

My sergeant, my senior

In so many words, he basically

You need to do your job, but your job consists of

It is your team.

Your job consists of their well-

You are going to a combat zone.

This isnt

You need to be awake and you

10

need to be alert.

And, you know, one of the things that Drill

11

Sergeant Olivera always said was, The more you sweat in training,

12

the less you bleed in combat.

13

understanding what your job is, the less you are going to bleed in

14

combat.

15

here, but I am also a citizen of America.

16

well-being goes [beyond the immediate moment], you know, my concern isnt

17

just for my immediate surroundings. It is for the bigger picture. Army is

18

Americas Army. It is not the generals Army.

19

It is Americas Army. So, as a citizen of America, I have that duty as

20

well.

21

a private.

22

higher ranks.

23

do have the right to question something that is coming down, because

In other words, the more you train in

And I understood what my role was.

Not only am I a Soldier

And that means, their

It is not the captains Army.

To make sure that--you know, someone would say, You are just

E0114

You dont have the authority to be questioning your

Well, as a private, perhaps--you know, as a private I

112

if you are--if it comes to, well, following an order even if it goes

against common sense?

taught me was, common sense.

in a battlefield, you have to adjust fire.

somebody there telling you what to do. You dont have somebody there

walking you baby steps through a battlefield.

own wits about you. You have to use your own common sense to get the

job done in that situation.

The first thing that Drill Sergeant Olivera

You have to have common sense, because
You dont always have

You have to use your

So, from what I--so, as a Soldier, I had--yes, I had to

10

follow orders.

11

pays for the Armys--for all the services.

12

my concern is also to make sure that the bigger picture is also

13

called into check.

14

is of the people and for the people.

15

the rest of the world.

16

royal leadership of Britain.

17

was the people who needed to be in control of the people.

18

people needed to be in control of their country.

19

was for the people and of the people, working for the people and for

20

the benefit of the people, because America is the people.

21

supposed to be overseeing what is going on.

22

politicians.

23

The politicians take that vote and they implement it.

E0115

But, as an American citizen, who is--you know, who

As an American citizen,

The American people, the United States government

That is what sets us apart from

That is why we removed ourselves from the

[It] was because we understood that it

The politicians are tools.

113

And the

And the government

We are

It is not the
The American people vote.
It is the

people who are in control of America.

That is what sets us apart.

So, in this situation, I was looking at this.

is going to say, Well, just let somebody else deal with it,

especially in a situation like that.

somebody being killed. So, I had to come up with a plan.

plan, you know, I ran out of lines from my knowledge as a PFC, from

my knowledge as a young man.

needed to get somebodys attention.

listen to me is somebody who has a reason to listen to me.

I am not someone who

That could very easily lead to

And the

The only thing that I could see was, I

The only person who is going to
And the

10

person whose attention I need to get was going to have to be somebody

11

who is of a higher rank then the battalion commander.

12

Now, I am not going to go to the media because I dont like

13

the way the media does things.

14

does things.

15

bunch of scandals and making money.

16

there and start ringing up the media so that I can start embarrassing

17

the Army.

18

Army, but the Army as an institute, what it was founded on and why it

19

was founded, the Army was to the protect Americas Constitution.

20

the Constitution stated liberty.

21

That was why America was built. That is why we came to this country

22

and why we fought the wars that we fought to remove ourselves from

23

Britain.

E0116

I have never liked the way the media

All they are interested in is a bunch of drama and a

All right.

So, I am not about to go out

I have problems with what is going on in the

And

The Constitution stated freedom.

That is why we fought how we did.

114

You know, the values

that this country stood for.

That is what brought about the Civil

War.

with liberty, and justice, and freedom.

literal definitions of these words, slavery, or any inequality,

womens inequality, anything like that, goes against those words.

So, the country divided.

Civil War, but the two sides, they had their points of view of how--

which direction America should go in.

this side had their views, and they felt so strongly about them,

The people who--the people divided.

These people had a problem

Because if you look at the

And the two sides--now, I wasnt in the

This side had their views and

10

about these views, that they started a war, the Civil War.

11

War was because of the weapons that we used and because of the

12

tactics that we used, I think it was the most bloodiest war in

13

history.

14

And America was built with ideology.

15

And there was, of course, going to be interpretation to these ethics.

16

Now, the Civil War wasnt just about slavery.

17

It was about a lot of other things.

18

this is going to be a history lesson.

19

Americans have been fighting wars as the Americas military to defend

20

what America was built with.

21

the ideology behind it.

22

the back of the Statue of Liberty as a symbol of stabbing the idea of

23

liberty in the back, I am fairly certain that the Statue of Liberty

E0117

I think.

The Civil

I could be wrong. But, they were Americans.

It was built on these ethics.

That was a flashpoint.

And I am not going into that or

But, it just shows you that

That was the Constitution.

That was

Unless you want to go put a giant sword in

115

still stands for the basic principles of what this country was built

on.

Now, do I have--so, the Army, as what it was built for, the

Army as what it was founded on, if you look at the creeds, if you

look at the oaths that are taken coming into the Army, before you put

on the rank, before you assume the positions, if you look at these

oaths, you look at the ethical morals that are instilled in these

oaths, okay, there is nothing wrong with these, because they are

moral, you know, ideologies.

They are moral guidelines.

Now, in my

10

unit in Afghanistan, the problem that I was having was not with the

11

Army.

12

I made in a very general sense that included the Army, that basically

13

took you--I stated things in such a way that I was almost stating

14

that the entire Army was messed up.

15

it was in my unit, all of this stupidity happening in my unit, then I

16

am going to guess that there is a good chance that it is everywhere

17

else too.

18

because of what it was founded on and for.

19

was, and this is what I was seeing at this point in time, was how

20

things had progressed.

21

the ranks are suddenly filled with people who are more interested in

22

a paycheck or a patch of power than they are into the ethical--into

23

creeds of ethics and values that state selfless service and main

Now, I was making, unfortunately, there are some comments that

E0118

And I was saying that because if

So, the Army as an institute, I have no problem with

What I had problem with

You know, suddenly people arent--you know,

116

concern is the well-being and welfare or well-being of my Soldiers

and the people.

up with basically people who are filling their pockets or people who

just wanted to walk around with this patch on their chest and feel

good about their ego.

and from my experience with the recruiters, who happily did what they

did, and I allowed them to do it, all the way through my unit.

lost it in basic training because of Drill Sergeant Olivera; however,

I saw it in other platoons and I saw it around me.

All right.

The people arent--the ranks are filling

And that is what I was seeing.

And that is--

Like a couple of

10

guys in my basic training were taking--at the end, we found out that

11

they were taking some kind of muscle supplement.

12

something like that.

13

things.

14

unit, it just--that little safe haven.

15

this is how the Army should be, that all fell apart.

16

just snowballed all the way up until this moment.

17

Like steroids or

And they are selling chewing tobacco, other

You know, so I saw that there.

And then when I got to my

That little glimpse of, Hey,

And it all

And here I am, a private first class, standing in

18

Afghanistan, a war zone.

We have been blown up.

We have been shot

19

at.

20

sitting next to me, and my main priority is getting them home, but do

21

our job here.

22

There is a lot of things that we didnt do that I thought we should

23

have done.

We have made it through and I am looking at these guys that are

E0119

I mean, we should have been doing a better job here.

But, again, this is just a private first class looking at

117

things.

And how, hindsight 20/20 understands--I understand that

there has to be certain units or certain elements that are security

based and they have to hold a piece of ground in order for the other

units, such as Rangers or Special Forces, to then be able to hit

strategic targets.

class, I was having a problem seeing the bigger picture.

looking at was me and my unit.

if we are going to make a difference here, we need to be going out

there.

I understand that now.

But, as a private first

What I was

And I was thinking, You know, well,

We need to be conducting house to house searches.

10

be going after these targets.

11

time, I also understood that there is Taliban and the people who

12

support them, but then there is just average, everyday Afghans that

13

are just people living in a third world country in extremely bad

14

conditions and they have been doing it for decades because their

15

country seems to be a hot spot for, you know, extremism and bullshit.

16

So, I also understood that, you know, we needed to treat these--there

17

is people here that are just people and we need to help them.

18

was the reason why we were supposed to be ISAF.

19

were supposed to be working with them, was because there was people

20

there that we should be helping.

21

our enemies.

22

we are supposed to help, complete reasons not to trust us, by not

23

doing anything about the people that we were supposed to be getting,

E0120

I understood that.

We need to

But, at the same

That

The reason why we

And there were people there were

So, instead of giving the people that are there, that

118

instead of giving them that [reasons not to trust us], then we should be

doing what we are telling these guys that we are here to do, then we should

go out and do it.

Q.

Okay.

A.

And as a private first class, from where I was standing, I

wasnt seeing that.

And as a private first class, where I was

standing, I was seeing around me all this just stupid bullshit.

I was seeing things heading in a very dangerous direction.

to do something.

It had to be me doing it.

And

So, I had

And so I came up, happily

10

with my ignorance of a young--from a young mans mind and my

11

imagination, I came up with a fantastic plan.

12

One of the things that I talked about with one of the guys

13

was DUSTWUN because I saw it written somewhere and I said, What is

14

DUSTWUN because I didnt know what DUSTWUN was.

15

DUSTWUN is what is called out when a Soldier is taken or when a

16

Soldier disappears or is taken.

17

DUSTWUN was called from a Soldier disappearing, that call goes not [only]

18

all the way up to Army command, it goes to Air Force, it goes to

19

Marines.

20

high point and everybody finds out about it.

21

question--the theory started out like this:

22

happens when a Soldier disappears, then that can be utilized.

23

Because I was looking at an environment.

E0121

And he said,

And I knew--so, I knew that if

It goes all the way back to the states.

119

It goes to every

So, the idea was--the

What happens--if that

We were 10 to 20 miles

away.

[Sharana].

high altitude doesnt affect me.

cover ground.

Special Forces.

at the environment.

was simple.

The security at the TCP was crap.

everywhere.

And nighttime was just, you know, I have been on guard

shift at that place.

10

This TCP [COP Mest] was 10 to 20 miles away from the FOB

good day.

11

It was flat ground.

I grew up on high altitudes.

I can run at high altitude.

You know, I had the PT down.

So,
I can

I was going to go

So, I had the physical ability.

So, I was looking

Flat ground all the way to the FOB.

The idea

There was weak points

Your visibility is like next to nothing on a

The whole setup to that thing was just--it was a joke.

So, the theory was, what happens if somebody leaves the

12

wire at the TCP, runs or moves to the FOB?

13

DUSTWUN is going to be called up.

14

right?

15

That call goes out.

16

happened?

17

their theories and people happily use their imaginations to fill in

18

all the blanks.

19

is going to lead the situation is actual events.

20

would be, a Soldier disappears.

21

actual events.

22

Actual event a couple of days later, or a day later, whatever it is,

23

24 hours or more, however long it would take me, the Soldier shows up

That guy disappears.

E0122

Well, during that time

Something is going to happen,

No one knows what happened to him.

It hits every command.

Nobody knows what has happened.

Everybody goes, what has

People come up with all

But, what is going to happen--what, you know, what

The actual events

And then a couple of days later,

DUSTWUN gets called up.

120

An alert gets sent out.

at the FOB.

From TCP to FOB.

People get that guy.

the gate.

you just do?

what I did until I am talking to a general.

know, gets taken to the general or general--because general wants to

know what is going on, because this guy just left the fort--he just

left the wire by himself.

wants to know what is going on.

and he is demanding to see a general.

People recognize him.

They ID him.

He shows up at

They go, What did

And that Soldier says, I am not saying anything about

Then that Soldier, you

DUSTWUN gets called up because of it.

He

And suddenly, this private shows up

So, a pretty good guess that

10

the general is probably going to be curious and want to talk to this

11

guy.

12

door policy.

13

the general goes, What did you do?

14

to listen to me.

15

a defense point, in the middle of a war zone, that we have been

16

attacked at, that we have been blown up at, on multiple occasions, if

17

this guy is willing to risk doing that, and then shows up again at

18

the FOB, he is going to want to know why and he is going to want to

19

listen to this guy.

20

has gone out of his way.

21

has to have a good reason for it.

22

is going to ask that person, Why?

23

Sir, these people, the BC, the sergeant major, they are unfit for

Especially open door policy, this private is demanding open

E0123

I want to see the general.

Go talk to the general,

Well, suddenly, he has a reason

Because if I am willing to risk leaving the wire at

And he has a reason to do it, because this guy

He has risked his own personal safety.
He is going to ask me, Why?
That person is going to say,

121

He
He

their positions from what I have seen.

On multiple occasions, they

have done this, this, this, and this.

of this Army, that a psychological evaluation and an investigation be

launched into this unit to remove anybody who is unfit for their duty

and to reestablish the safe procedures and guidelines that a real

leader, real officer, or real NCO should be emplacing in a military

unit that is in the middle of a battlefield.

reason to understand.

should be listening to what this guy is saying.

I am demanding, as a Soldier

Suddenly he has a

Suddenly he has a reason to believe that he

Because if he thinks

10

that the threat that is coming down from above, if he thinks that

11

there is a threat big enough around here, that he is willing to do

12

something like that.

13

All right, now everyone is going to say, I am on--

14

obviously, I have heard--you know, you read out the charges.

15

have talked about desertion.

16

whatever it is that they want to talk about.

17

about, Oh, he was a sympathizer of the Taliban.

18

look at their ideology and what they are doing and you look at my

19

character.

20

happily talk all day about the joke of what they are [the Taliban].

21

People

People have talked about treason or

They want to talk
All right.

You

And you want to ask me questions about that, I will

All right.

I am, for lack of a better word, a feminist.

22

fully believe in womens equality.

23

call her my God mother because that is the type of person that I

E0124

You have met Kim Harrison.

122

find as, you know, a senior role model.

I fully believe in that.

complete joke and you can talk to me all day about it and I will

happily rip it up one side and down the other, and leave it

completely lacking in any theories.

She is that type of person.

So, sympathizer to the Taliban is a

Part of the theory that went along with the plan, and the

reason why I ended up believing that it could happen, that it would

work was, there was a safety net; the safety net that would cancel

out any charges of desertion.

That safety net was, one, if I wanted

10

to leave the Army, everybody knows you take--you know, do something

11

like you take a grenade into the hospital and tell them to take you

12

home.

13

want to leave the Army--or you go on mid-tour leave and you just

14

dont come back.

15

zone, there is safer ways of doing it than walking past the only safe

16

line there is and into the war zone by yourself.

17

would have to be completely stupid to think that you could desert in

18

the middle of a war zone by stepping over the only thing that is

19

basically your safety.

Or, two, you just stop doing what you do.

20

There is other ways.

All right.

If you

If you wanted to leave a war

The other safety net was the mountains.

All right.

You

We were on a

21

plateau.

22

of us or the south of us, I believe, were the mountains from Pakistan

23

and Afghanistan.

E0125

It was a very flat plateau, but the mountains to the north

Now, you know my history.

123

I have grown up in

Idaho.

I know mountains.

The mountains there are ridiculous.

grew up reading maps.

interpret what I see on a map into reality.

map, the forward observers maps when were at the FOB and the

observation post.

was it is insane, the terrain.

who made that border did it for a reason.

militarily strategic reason because that mountain range was the

perfect natural barrier to any military incursion from the Russians.

I know what maps look like and I know how to

I looked at his maps.

All right.

Now, I looked at the FOs

My first thing that I saw

The British map makers
It was a strategic--

10

That was the point, for a reason.

11

and you see the ridiculous insanity of that terrain.

12

all right.

13

You look at a map that the FO has

I mean, it is--

Now, the safety net to that is, Oh, he is deserting.

He

14

is going to go to Pakistan.

15

than the water that they could carry, with no map, but maybe a

16

compass, in the middle of a war zone, in the middle of country they

17

dont speak the language of, even if they had all of these together,

18

a person on foot going through, by themselves, that mountain and

19

terrain, is dead.

20

You cannot, in that heat, in that climate, in that country, where

21

there is towns like--there arent towns that you can just go to a gas

22

station and fill up water.

23

is completely close to non-existent.

E0126

A person on foot, with nothing more

They are never going to make it to the other side.

And the water in that country is--one, it

It is mostly underground.
124

Afghanistan, there is plenty of water.

water that is on the surface is putrid filth, that you would

basically killing yourself to drink the stupid stuff.

why they have so many health issues there in that country.

It is all underground.

The

Another reason

So, the safety net was, any person who had any sense in

their head, who had the ability to either read a map, who had the

ability to understand terrain, who had the ability to understand the

human limitations and reality of these human limitations would have

to draw the conclusion that I drew.

And that person on foot trying

10

to go through those mountains is not going to make it.

11

could say that, Well, you are just too stupid to understand that.

12

My safety net again would be, I grew up in those type of mountains in

13

Idaho.

14

-I am more comfortable out in the wilderness than I am in the city.

15

And my history, my past, my childhood proves that.

16

trying to prove that, Well, you were trying to go over these

17

mountains, you would have to prove that my entire character and my

18

entire experience didnt exist and that I was a complete joke; that I

19

didnt know what I was talking about.

20

lets go out in the mountains and I will prove it.

I grew up understanding those maps.

21

Now, you

I grew up understanding-

So, anybody

You want me to prove myself,

So, that was my other safety net that said, in that area,

22

you know, Afghanistan, not just those mountains, is ridiculous.

23

know, the reason why Afghanistan has yet to be, you know,

E0127

125

You

successfully conquered, except for Genghis Khan, and he did it because

he just annihilated everything.

the Taliban that are winning.

creating all the funnels that make it so simple that a monkey could

go out there, dig a hole in the road, and put explosives in it.

is the biggest thing that we have had to deal with.

a genius to know that that one road that they have to keep going up

is perfectly offset from this other mountainside and alls we have to

do is sit up there with RPK and RPG and wait until they come back up,

The terrain is, you know, it is not

It is the terrain that are happily

That

It doesnt take

10

and put a couple of IEDs down there.

11

figure that out.

12

And they literally think that if they fire their AK-47 at a base that

13

they can see 10 miles away that their bullets are by Gods grace they

14

are going to make it there and hit somebody.

15

geniuses.

They are very crafty and they can adapt, and they can

16

overcome.

And they can adjust themselves.

17

was winning the, you know, it is not them that was causing the

18

biggest problem.

19

what they do.

20

It doesnt take a genius to

Thankfully, for them.

Because I have met them.

These people arent

But, it was not them that

It is the natural terrain that allows them to do

So, the safety net of, Well, you were trying to desert.

21

All right.

22

deserting in the middle of a battlefield in that kind of terrain was

23

going to bring you success.

E0128

One, you have to be a complete moron to think that

Making it to China, making it to

126

Pakistan, the distance is what?

You know, it is ridiculous.

You

cant cover that distance by natural physical body.

people that used to travel the Silk Road had caravans where they came

from.

I mean, the

Caravans of pack animals that carried everything with them.

So, the ideas was to--it was--literally, it was a

sacrificial--it was a self-sacrifice thing.

get hit.

to hit me with everything.

rank.

I knew I was going to

I knew that when I showed up at that FOB, they were going

I was a PFC.

I wasnt going to lose anything.

I didnt care about losing

But, what they were going to

10

do, they were going to charge me.

11

what they were going to be forced to do was, they were going to be

12

forced to investigate the entire situation.

13

be forced to do is, they were going to be forced to adjust my

14

platoons command.

15

were going to be forced to stop allowing my platoon to continue to

16

follow orders from this guy.

17

on hold.

18

didnt think that I had anything legitimate to say, they would still

19

have to do.

20

just let that unit continue functioning as a normal unit.

21

issues here that have to be addressed, even if this guy doesnt have

22

anything to say.

Even if he is completely delusional, we still have

23

to investigate it.

We still have to figure out what is going on.

E0129

Yeah, they could charge me.

But,

What they were going to

What they were going to be forced to do is, they

They are going to have put everything

They are going to have to freeze everything.

Protocol would say, This is a situation.

127

Even if they

You cant
There is

So, no matter what happened to me, it was going to do what exactly

needed to be done.

and it would put into check the problems that I saw as the threat to

my platoon.

And that was that it would call foul to that game

Now, a stupid young man, who wanted to go SF [Special Forces],

[got a] brilliant idea in his head, about 20 minutes into the night.

And that was, if I could find the people who were putting the IEDs in

the road, follow them back to where they are coming from, then

showing up at the FOB, not only doing what I was going to do, but

10

also with the bonus material of information or intel of, Hey, this city

11

over here or this town over here has the guys who are putting the IEDs in

12

that we keep hitting. And because I knew showing up at the FOB, I

13

knew they were going to hit me with everything they could, obviously.

14

So, a redeeming point would be if I could get intel and I could bring

15

that intel there, then they could justify, Well, he left the wire.

16

He got intel that allowed us to track down this person who was

17

putting bombs in the road that were putting in jeopardy the lives of

18

the men.

19

in saying, Well, okay, you shouldnt have left the wire the way you

20

did. But, if you think back to World War I or World War II, the guys

21

who were doing what Special Forces do or the guys that were going

22

behind lines, like the snipers, these guys werent specially trained.

23

These guys didnt have the brilliant technological phenomenon that we

E0130

It allowed us to do that. That would be a redeeming point

128

do now.

These guys were doing what they were doing simply because

they, themselves, could contain the capacity or had the capacity to

do it.

how to survive.

werent going behind enemy lines because they were specifically

trained with amazingly researched training to do it.

it just because they, themselves, in their character and their

ability, could do that.

going out there with GPS.

They were self-reliant.

They knew how to shoot and they knew

And they had a massive amount of common sense.

They

They were doing

They didnt--you know, those guys werent

They werent going out there with maps.

10

They werent going out there knowing what was out there.

11

going out there and they were simply adjusting as they go, adapting

12

and overcoming what they were doing, and getting the job done.

13

They were

So, if someone questioned me, it would be like, So, what,

14

just because I didnt have maps or because I didnt have somebody

15

hovering above me trying to support, just because these guys back

16

here didnt know what I was?

17

sent the--you know, we--in our military, we would send these guys.

18

In Vietnam, we would send the snipers out.

19

they were.

20

adjust to or if they were even going to come back.

21

were sent out to do a job.

22

in the one--in the two--in the two man pairs and do their job is

23

because of what they were capable of.

E0131

That is what they were doing.

You

They didnt know where

They didnt know how far they were or where they would
But, those guys

And the reason why they could be sent out

That was what Special Forces

129

was built on.

doing that and they condensed them into a unit, into a team, into a

body so that they could do what they were doing more efficiently.

You know, instead of leaving them in their units, and leaving them to

basically be engulfed by the regular Joe, the regular people that

were there, you were taking that talent, you were taking that ability

you were condensing it and utilizing it for what it was.

what Special Forces was built from.

That is why it is called Special Forces.

10

Special Forces took those guys that were capable of

So, stupid actions, yes.

That was

And that was their mission.

Stupid young man who wanted--I

11

had always been a failure.

12

weapons.

13

chance to prove I wasnt just a failure.

14

Forces.

15

Article 15 and say, Well, I am here, just like all the other guys

16

that want to be super cool Soldiers.

17

course saying, I deserve to be here because I have proven myself

18

already that I am capable of doing not what Special Forces does now,

19

but what the real founders, the real guys back in the day did then.

20

Those guys had no support.

21

technology.

22

skills.

I knew Soldiers.

The Army was--I knew the Army.

I knew how to do that.

I knew

This was my

I wanted to go Special

I didnt want to show up at the Q-course with some bullshit

E0132

I wanted to show up at the Q-

They had no maps.

They had no

Alls they had was their common sense and their own

130

1
2

CDC: All right.

Let me interject.

I have one question and

then----

I/O: Okay.

CDC: It is sort of arbitrary where you want to break.

I/O: No.

CDC: So, my one question is, where were your ID card and dog
tags?

10
11

No, this is got me--we got to eat lunch anyhow.

mean, the hours are----

8
9

If you

want to keep rolling----

6
7

And then take a break.

A.

They were on my person.

My dog tags were around my neck

and my ID card was in my back pocket in my wallet.

12

CDC: Lets have lunch.

13

I/O: Okay.

14

CDC: Unless you want to----

15

I/O: Let me just take a minute to sort of summarize that, very

16

Let me----

quickly.

17

CDC: Yeah.

18

Q.

Yeah.

And then we will pick it up after lunch.

19

Okay.

So, it has been a busy morning.

You are doing great.

And you are doing

20

great.

The whole point here was to give you an

21

opportunity to tell your story, which you havent had a chance to do

22

yet.

So, we will pick it up after lunch.

E0133

131

I do not want to put words

in your mouth, but I do want to try to make a stab at trying to

summarize what I heard this morning.

Generally, continually disappointed with the majority of

the military leadership that you encountered along the way.

Also,

generally disappointed with a good number of your peers, not all of

them, but a good number of them.

disappointed in, you felt were also somewhat weak and vulnerable and

you saw yourself as a person who could protect them, you know, help

them.

The ones that you werent

You saw yourself in a position, particularly, when you were in

10

Sharana and at COP Mest and on the mission, and on the other patrols

11

where the battalion leadership in particular, not really the company

12

leadership, and not even so much the platoon leadership.

13

platoon leadership sort of has been left out of this and the company

14

leadership has sort of been left out of this.

15

your mind at the battalion leadership.

So, the

But, big problems in

16

A.

Yeah.

17

Q.

Commander and sergeant major. And with some of the NCOs

18

within the platoon.

And you saw that that situation was just getting

19

worse and worse and worse.

20

wreck.

21

leader is so unfit that whatever is going to happen to us is

22

unpredictable, but I dont want to be sitting there when they

23

discover this guy is completely unfit and says, Shit, I saw it and I

It was just headed for an absolute train

And what I think you said was, two likely outcomes is, this

E0134

132

didnt say anything. Excuse my French.

So, I am going to speak

out. Or, it is so bad, that he actually puts us on a suicide mission

to get rid of this ugly platoon that is a blemish on his career.

And, I am not going to sit around and watch that happen.

safe than sorry.

am I going take?

get to somebody who will listen.

listen?

of a fantastic plan is probably apt.

I am going to take action. Okay.

So, better

So, what action

Well, open door policy aint gonna do it.

I got to

How do I get to somebody who will

How do I make them listen to me?

I think your description

But, nonetheless, you know,

10

like you said, you were young.

You had your views.

11

world that you were in as a PFC to much more than just your

12

experience, because you did make an assumption.

13

rest of the Army was this way too, or It wasnt just this platoon,

14

or It wasnt just this battalion.

15

needed to intervene, to take action, recognizing, fully recognizing

16

that this is like a sacrifice mission here, just like a suicide

17

mission.

18

Theyre going to have to listen to me no matter how high a price I

19

pay.

20

the COP.

21

there--in the meantime, all of the enablers, you know, that are a

22

part of the DUSTWUN, are going to have to respond and its going to

23

facilitate--this is the part I want to make sure I got this right,

I assume that the

It was greater than that.

So I

Im going to pay a heavy price here, but its important.

Theyre going to have to listen to me.

E0135

You extended the

So Im going to leave

Im going to make it to Sharana, you know, and when I get

133

The activation of all the enablers is going to facilitate some

kinetic action against the actual insurgents and the actual Taliban

that we need to be addressing and eliminating to demonstrate to the

Afghan people were there to help you.

enough of that going on in your view.

kinetic against the insurgents in order to do that part of COIN.

Because COIN isnt all about passing out, you know, rice.

is protecting the population.

doing enough protecting the population stuff, so a lot of multiple

You know, and there wasnt

We werent doing enough

So you were frustrated.

Part of it

Were not

10

benefits here.

You know, I go DUSTWUN, all the enablers come in,

11

all the ISR, all the air, all the--were going to find the Taliban.

12

Were going to get after the Taliban.

13

protecting the Afghan people.

14

Im good enough.

15

FOB.

16

me.

17

me hard.

18

watch this shit happen anymore.

Its going to contribute to

Im fit enough.

Im smart enough.

I know the terrain enough.

Ill make it to the

And when I get there, the generals going to have to listen to

And Im going to get burned bad for this.

19

But, you know, whatever.

Theyre going to hit

Im not going to sit here and

Am I okay so far?

20

A.

Yeah.

21

Q.

Okay, then----

22

CDC: Hold the thought.

23

I/O: Yeah.

E0136

I want to focus on one question.

134

CDC: Because you had a lot built in that.

I/O: Yeah.

CDC: And I just want to satisfy myself.

I/O: Sure.

CDC: Focusing on the role played by the DUSTWUN aspect of this,

was it your thought that, as General Dahl outlined, it mobilized the

various other players, you said enablers--enabler has a second

meaning in my mind.

9
10

I/O: No, Al [sic-Gene], what I mean by enablers is the

intelligence platforms, the weapons platforms.

11

CDC: To me it has a different meaning.

12

I/O: The high end, the high tech, you know, Special Forces type

13
14

of players.
CDC: Thats General Dahls encapsulation of the DUSTWUN issue

15

youve discussed.

16

ensure that this issue couldnt be buried?

17
18

Q.

Or was the DUSTWUN function simply the way to

Were asking him the questions.

your mouth.

Right?
Im not putting words in

So Im not saying----

19

CDC:

Yeah, and I dont want to either.

20

Q.

And the reason I--and I think its a very good question.

21

Because as you were telling this, you know, and its going to be hard

22

for you to recall did you do this in advance or are you remembering

23

it now.

But it sounds as though it was a fantastic plan because it

E0137

135

had many layers.

I mean, there were multiple things I think--let me

just ask you.

accomplish with the DUSTWUN?

Were there multiple things that you were trying to

A.

Yes.

Q.

Or was it simply, you know, cant get buried?

A.

It was multiple layers, yeah.

And DUSTWUN was, if I

remember correctly, it was more focused on the fact that the DUSTWUN

would disallow it from being buried but it would also----

Q.

Okay, okay.

10

A.

----it would also launch all that.

11

Q.

Okay, okay.

12

A.

Yeah, too much into that.

13

CDC: Or that theres another level, another layer.

14

Q.

The principle aspect was----

15

A.

Yeah.

16

Q.

----if I go DUSTWUN, Im going to get my opportunity to

17

So I may have read too much into----

talk to a general.

18

A.

Yeah, yeah.

19

Q.

And you have.

20

If I go DUSTWUN, its---You have, by the way.

Its taken a long

time.

21

CDC: [Laughs]

22

Q.

23

CDC: A tough way to do it.

E0138

Thats [inaudible because of laughing] also.

Youre welcome.

136

Q.

through hell.

A.

Yes.

Q.

You have gone through hell.

And Im not being flippant, Sergeant Bergdahl.

So please dont misinterpret

what Im saying as being insensitive.

A.

No, I know.

Q.

There is a bit of irony to it.

Youve gone

So lets be real.

I mean,

this is sort of human interaction.

A.

Yeah.

10

Q.

Lets keep it light so we dont all fall apart.

11

CDC: I actually did think of that.

12

Q.

So forgive me.

13

A.

No, I understand.

14

Q.

But so the principal reason was to--you know, Im going to

15

I got it.

get an audience with the general and the DUSTWUN is the way to do it?

16

A.

Yeah.

17

Q.

And then, you know, you obviously thought deeper then.

18

said, You know what?

19

shit.

You

Actually, you know, these guys are seeing

You go DUSTWUN, everything shows up.

20

A.

Yeah.

21

Q.

The ISR shows up, the SOF guys show up, the special ops,

22
23

the black guys show up.

A.

E0139

Yeah.
137

Q.

I mean, and we need that anyhow.

And the only reason I

brought it up--again, I dont want to put words in your mouth.

thought that you also expressed a frustration that, you know, if

were going to help the Afghans----

A.

Yeah.

Q.

----you know, part of helping the Afghans is helping the

Afghans who are vulnerable, you know, and illiterate and farmers and

protect them and were not doing enough of that.

A.

Yeah.

10

Q.

You now realize, I think you said, your words were, I now

11

realize part of enabling that is conventional forces holding terrain

12

so the operators can do that.

13

A.

Yeah.

14

Q.

You understand it now.

15

A.

Yeah, yeah.

16

Q.

But at the time, you were like, Hey, we need to be doing

17

more.

18

A.

At the time, I didnt know.

19

CDC: But lets also be clear, one of the things I think is

20

important to sort of organize the data is to distinguish between your

21

current understanding and what your, you know----

22

Q.

23

CDC: What your intent was at the time.

E0140

Yeah, what your intent was at the time.

138

Q.

Yeah, right.

What you were thinking at the time.

CDC: And, just to drive it home, talking about these two layers,

were those part of your thinking at the time?

retrospective?

5
6

Q.

Right.

Rather than a

Yeah, I mean, think about that and after lunch

well ask you again.

A.

Okay.

Q.

So you can try to, in your mind, and its going to be hard

to do.

10

A.

Yeah.

11

Q.

Like I said earlier when I talked to your platoon mates,

12

their statements, their written statements from five years ago are

13

better than what they tell me now just because an awful lot has--and

14

you dont even know.

You know?

15

A.

Yeah.

16

Q.

Youre convinced thats what I was thinking at the time.

17

Well, it wasnt what you were thinking at the time because Im

18

reading this.

19

A.

Yeah.

20

Q.

So are you [referring to platoon members] lying to me now

21

or were you lying to me then?

22

just human--were only human.

23

A.

E0141

Well, theyre not lying either.

Yeah.
139

Its

1
2

Q.

I mean, we dont have total recall.

We didnt have one of

those with us [pointing to recorder].

A.

Yeah, thats right.

Q.

Okay, so then the other piece just, and then well break

for lunch, is and then you thought through at the time, I think this

was at the time and again Ill ask after lunch did you think this at

the time or is your memory adding to this after the fact, but you

were thinking at the time, Okay, so whats going to happen to me

when I get to, you know--like you said, a simulation.

10

Okay, you run

through these things in your mind.

11

A.

Yeah.

12

Q.

So Im simulating.

I make it.

The DUSTWUN happens.

I get my audience with the general.

13

make it to FOB Sharana.

And

14

what are they going to think of me?

15

credible story?

16

to this miserable leadership at the battalion level?

17

theyre never going to think that I did this to leave my unit, just

18

to desert my unit.

19

desert my unit, to get thrown out of theater and head back home.

I mean, how do I make this a

That I really did this just to bring their attention

Well, one,

Theres a hell of a lot of other easier ways to

20

A.

Yeah.

21

Q.

Not just trying to get away from this because Im a coward

22

or because Im miserable.

23

Okay so far?

E0142

140

A.

Mm-hm.

Q.

Okay, then secondly, you know, look at the terrain.

And well have to address this after lunch.

Its

impossible.

Because the

reason the mountains are important is because as youve read, some of

your buddies recall you saying, Im going to India, Im going to

China, Im going to Russia, Im going to join the mob, whatever it

might be.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

Okay, its way too--even for yourself thats too fantastic.

10

A.

Yeah.

11

Q.

To actually scale those mountains and get there.

12

way out there.

13

you would know that.

14

implausible for anyone to imagine that you would actually be

15

venturing over the mountains.

16

out of a miserable situation.

Thats

And based on your upbringing and where youve lived,

Okay, so thats incredible.

Its just

And there are easier ways of getting

17

A.

Yeah.

18

Q.

Because you werent trying to get out of a miserable

19

situation.

You were trying to correct a miserable situation.

20

A.

Yeah.

21

Q.

And then finally, when I show up at the Q-course, Im not

22

going to have just a field grade for being out of uniform up on the

23

OP1 at COP Mest, Ive got a better story than anybody.

E0143

141

A.

Yeah.

Q.

Okay, so thats just a summary.

matter.

What matters is what youve said.

understand it.

What Im saying doesnt

Im just trying to

A.

Yeah.

Q.

So does that--am I in the ballpark?

A.

Yeah.

Q.

Okay.

9
10

So why dont we break for lunch?

Okay.

Great.

[The interview recessed on 6 August 2014.]

[The interview resumed on 6 August 2014.]

11

I/O: We will just put in 0810, we have to initial the date and

12

time.

13

about 0810 when we did this.

14

ask you to initial the date and the time, just put an initial in each

15

of those.

16

[The investigating officer recorded the time and date on the Rights

17

Warning Procedure/Waiver Certificate and the subject initialed as

18

directed.]

19
20

I think we started at 0800, so I'm just going to say it was

I/O: So, has your name always been Beaudry Robert Bergdahl, or
was it originally Robert Beaudry Bergdahl?

21
22

I'm just going to put 0810 there and

I don't know where I saw that.

SBJ: Originally----

E0144

142

1
2

I/O. Not that it really matters, I just thought I read that

somewhere.

SBJ: Originally, its Beaudry Robert Bergdahl.

I/O: Originally it's----

SBJ: On the birth certificate it's Beaudry Robert Bergdahl.

I/O: We are going to wait for the captain to come back before we

start.

8
9

Is he out there?
CR:

He is, sir.

10

SBJ: Yes, he is.

11

CDC: Theres somebody else from Fox News.

12

I/O: Whats the--do you eat in the DFAC normally, occasionally?

13

SBJ: Occasionally.

14

I/O: Its not very good?

15

SBJ: No, its good.

16

I/O: Okay, it must be pretty good then.

17

SBJ: Yeah.

18

I/O: It's one or the other.

19

I like it.

Its extremely crowded though.

It's usually very crowded or the

food is so bad----

20

SBJ: Typically empty.

21

I/O: Typically, its crowded at lunch and breakfast, but for

22

dinner, nobody goes there.

E0145

143

1
2
3
4
5

Do you have a little kitchenette or something in your room

or your barracks?
SBJ: Yeah, a little common area.
and a refrigerator.
I/O: Good.

6
7

It's got a stove, a microwave,

Did you get any peanut butter?

I remember when we first got back here you were interested

in some peanut butter and I wanted to bring you some, but I didn't.

CDC: It's bad for you, but it tastes so good.

I/O: When I did the STP [Seattle to Portland], that was my fuel.

10

I made peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, cut them in quarters,

11

stuck them in my backpack, and about every 15 miles, I'd stop and eat

12

half of a PB&J.

And two days later, I was in Portland----

13

CDC: Perfect food.

14

I/O: ----It ended at the beer garden, so it was good.

15

So we summarized--I don't think I need to summarize again,

16

I don't think that's necessary.

17

to talk rather than answering questions.

Don't hold yourself to 30

18

minutes; take as much time as you need.

I told Gene that you need to

19

be spent when you're done.

20

nothing on the table.

21

because I know some of the things that I'll need to ask you to

22

corroborate some of the things that you're telling me and to negate

23

some of the things that the other folks are saying.

E0146

But, I do want to let you continue

I'm done.

I've said it all.

I've left

And, then we can ask you follow-up questions

144

Let me just tell you up front, you had mentioned earlier

some of these accusations of you were crossing over, being a traitor,

and all that kind of stuff.

too.

that.

just not the case.

your contact or your desire to contact the Taliban like you mentioned

to try to find out something about IEDs and bring that intel with

you.

I've read that stuff in the open press,

I've been at this for 52 days.

I have seen nothing to indicate

So don't think that we have a file or case against you, that's

As you continue your story, I am interested in

I am interested in hearing that and how you imagined, had you

10

had that opportunity to meet with them, to learn something about

11

them, breaking contact from them, and then continuing on to Sharana.

12

You mentioned 20 minutes into--so why dont we just pick up

13

there.

You said 20 minutes into this you had this idea that, in

14

addition to--so when you departed you weren't thinking, "I'm going to

15

do that."

You were thinking, I'm going to run to Sharana.

16

SBJ: Yeah.

17

I/O: And then 20 minutes into it, you thought, Hey, before I

18

get to Sharana, I mean, the simulations just kept running.

19

when I got to the gate at Sharana, it sure would be good to have

20

something with me.

21

Questions by the investigating officer:

22
23

A.

Okay,

So, I will just turn it over to you there.

Yeah, that's good.

So it was about 20 minutes into it.

was thinking of--the whole idea was to get there as quickly as

E0147

145

possible.

Because I knew the dangers of being out there and I

specifically--nighttime was the cover.

Once daytime came----

Q.

you departed?

A.

Sometime around midnight, probably after.

Q.

So you figured you had a few hours in the cover of

7
8
9

Roughly, what time did you--do you have any idea what time

darkness.
A.

A few hours of cover.

The idea was to make as much--to

cover as much ground as possible.

However, I knew what I had set

10

myself up for.

Definitely, fear is a very general word.

I had mixed

11

feelings about what I was doing.

12

fear of doing it and there was going to be all these--my mind is

13

always going to question what I was doing because I knew how

14

dangerous it was.

15

late to return because I knew I wasn't going to try to get back on.

Of course, there was going to be

And I knew, basically, by that point, it was too

16

Q.

Right.

You committed?

17

A.

Yeah, I committed.

So knowing what was waiting for me,

18

basically, it was going to be a very uneasy feeling because I

19

basically just pitted myself against the entire military higher rank.

20

The idea was I knew that the area was being--had IEDs placed in it

21

and I'm going to correct--no, not correct, but Im just going to

22

explain clearer what I was thinking.

E0148

146

I wasn't planning on making contact with the Taliban at

all.

What I was planning on doing was I was planning on moving along

the route that I believed there were guys putting IEDs in.

was going to plan on doing was using the element of the fact that

they weren't suspecting a lone person to be out there quietly moving

through the--across the ground.

At this point in time, I slowed up

my pace.

I moved back towards the main road

because I had gone off the main road.

The idea was to see if I could hear sounds of digging or see

I stopped running.

What I

So, I switched directions.

10

silhouettes or voices in the night.

The point was to locate

11

something like this on my way there.

12

much larger--instead of going straight there, I decided to widen my

13

arc out, you know, I was going to arc out instead of trying to travel

14

straight.

15

people moving in the darkness in a suspicious way by a road or

16

something like that.

17

have a reason for being out at night.

18

around unless they have to.

19

confirmation of them; a visual or whether I was following sounds,

20

shadows, to do my best to follow that direction into the morning

21

light.

22

The ground was basically soft dust.

23

easy to track someone in the desert.

I started detouring to make a

So this took me into the night and the plan was to find

In that country, people out at nighttime, they

Those guys dont like moving

So the idea was to get some kind of

Once I got morning light, I could pick-up the actual trail.

E0149

Its the desert.

Its extremely

Another thing was if they had a

147

motorcycle.

I could pick up the motorcycle trail and I could follow

that motorcycle trail throughout the daytime because it would leave a

very clear mark.

actually to just trail them.

of visual that theres people out there right now, stay on them at

night by using either the visual of their shadow, or silhouette, or

sound and keep on it until daylight comes and pick-up the physical

trail left behind and track them.

them.

The idea was not to make contact with them but

Pick-up a trail, pick-up--get some kind

Let them get ahead, but track

It was a gamble, but it was--you know in military, you read

10

the history books and theres always--you read about these things

11

that are just random circumstances, that you--if you just seize that

12

moment----

13

Q.

It pays off.

14

A.

It pays off.

So the idea was, if I put forth effort of

15

trying to collect something like this, it might pay off.

16

pay off, then it would help.

17

worse than I was.

18

and in daylight.

19

plan was to run in the night, daytime comes, cover myself, and wait

20

for evening to come again, and run at night and get to point B.

21

If it does

If it doesnt pay off, then I am no

Unfortunately, the sacrifice was longer time out

It also meant moving in the daylight.

My original

My new plan was to actually move and see if I cant catch

22

anything suspicious, something that would suggest that there was

23

something I can pick-up.

E0150

I moved throughout the night.

148

I made a

mistake.

I had a compass with me, but because of the flat terrain I

didnt need it.

It doesnt matter if Im in a city.

vacation.

It doesnt matter if Im on a jet, or in a car, or

anywhere.

I always have a compass with me.

things I have.

always have.

lost.

lot of trouble.

Now, I am a person--I always have a compass with me.

It doesnt matter if Im on

I have a compass with me.

Its one of the first

That is just something I

Growing up the way I did, I knew the meaning of getting

If you get lost out in the wilderness in Idaho, youre in a

Now, Ive always, because Ive grown up in those

10

mountains, I have always had an extremely acute sense of knowing my

11

surroundings and having an extremely good sense of direction.

12

However, I know that you need a compass for certain types of

13

navigation and the very idea of a compass, its a symbol.

14

one of the things I am interested in is old historical sea stories,

15

the adventures, the men who set out across the oceans to visit the

16

distant lands that no one knew anything about.

17

symbol of all of that because without it, it wouldnt have gone so

18

well.

19

have one.

20

straight there, I probably wouldnt have needed it, but I made a

21

mistake when I diverted.

22

ability to navigate at night.

23

dont know anything about the sky.

So the compass to me is a symbol.

E0151

Because

The compass is the

So I just naturally always

It doesnt mean I always use it.

I made a mistake.

Going

That mistake was overconfidence in my

There was extremely low visibility. I
I dont know enough about
149

celestial navigation.

Unfortunately, the flat terrain started to

turn into slightly hillish terrain.

hillish it was, but a couple hours into it, I realized that I needed

to use my compass because Afghanistan terrain is--it is what it is.

It is unpredictable.

and it doesnt take very much to turn you around.

hours of trying to do it myself, I ended up having to use my compass.

There was a couple-hour gap in the night that I displaced myself to

the point of, at that moment, in the darkness, I didnt know exactly

I am not sure exactly how

You get into it on the ground, without a map,

After a couple

10

where I was.

11

steady pace for a couple of hours in this certain direction following

12

the terrain.

13

pull me back in line with the FOB.

14

myself to this point and it was not as exact--So when I pulled out my

15

compass and I started--I still had to keep going in that direction.

16

Theres a couple hours gap where I could have meandered off and so

17

the map in my head wasnt exactly where it was.

18

to slow down even more. I started trying to pull myself back around

19

towards the FOB and it got me into the hills and through the night I

20

thought I had a couple possibles but it turned out to be generators.

21

I thought it was motorcycles or something, but it was generators.

22

Nighttime passed fairly quickly, steady walking, I never stopped to

23

rest except for moments to pull my compass out and moments where I

E0152

I knew I had traveled a certain--I knew I traveled at a

I knew if my--I knew how to pull an azimuth that would

I wasnt lost, but I had gotten

150

By that point, I had

had to stop and listen.

Otherwise, it was just steady walking.

My

time--my distance was shortened because instead of running, I slowed

to a walk and I kept a steady walk up, but it was still a walking

pace.

over my head in a sense that it was open ground and Im here trying

to navigate myself through it.

environment I was in.

environment.

of terrain you need to be--what kind of people, or whatever.

10

didnt know any of that, that you should know going into it.

Yes, I

11

was in over my head; however, my argument for that was, well those

12

old guys were in over their heads, too.

13

adapt to it, and do your best.

By daylight, I will admit I was in over my head. I wasnt in

14

I was in over my head knowing the

Not something that Ive been--hostile

What are the--how to spot warnings or how to--what kind

So it was that situation,

Daylight came and the whole point was to cover ground and

15

see if I can spot anything.

16

sun just came up, early morning light.

17

I wasnt keeping track of time once daylight came, a couple hours

18

maybe walking through the desert.

19

kinda went from closer hills and started opening up into a flatter,

20

hillish land.

21

I remember correctly, I was--north was the direction I was going in.

22

The FOB would have been to my northeast.

23

an arc----

E0153

So I am moving in the early morning, the

Its right there before noon.

Terrain started opening up.

It

I knew I was--I forget the exact--I believe I was--if

151

The whole point was to do

Q.

To Sharana?

A.

Sharana.

onto Sharana.

the possibilities of being caught out in the daytime were a

possibility.

little local shop on the FOB, we called it the Hajji-Mart, the guy

had clothes, the Jamay [referring to ankle length garb that is customarily

worn in the region] that they would wear. The idea was if I put that on over

my clothes and put the typical head-wrap on my head, at a distance, any of

10

the locals would see an average guy walking through the desert. That was

Theres hills between them and it flattens out

Prior to this, my simulations ran in the theory that

I needed to compensate that.

So what I did was at a

11

the plan.

12

It didnt work.

13

spotted me. I dont know what it was that gave me away. But, here I am

14

walking through the desert. I know that the closest road that I spotted was

15

maybe a hundred meters away from me, but in those morning hours, on

16

motorcycles, was when I first got contact from the Taliban.

17

they spotted me while they were moving along the road, or whether

18

someone had called forward or not, I dont know.

19

not to act suspicious.

20

Q.

That is what I did--the overconfidence was that it would work.

I dont know how they did it. I dont know who it was who

Whether

My whole thing was

So the very first contact you made with another person

21

outside the wire was the Taliban on motorcycles and it was about what

22

time the next day?

23

A.

E0154

Morning hours.
152

Q.

Sometime before noon, the next morning?

A.

Yes.

It might have been a sheep herder, a goat herder.

was a goat herder, but at a distance.

falls into a steady blur. I knew what I had gotten into.

point everything just settles into a survival thing.

Q.

It

After that, everything kind of

After that

So the dress and the headgear you bought at Sharana, you

brought it to COP Mest with you and you just carried it with you when

you went off?

A.

Yeah.

10

Q.

Let me ask you, can you go back and tell me about what you

11

brought with you and how you made those elections, and what you left

12

behind?

13

what you didnt have, what you brought, or what you didnt bring.

14

You can kind of clear all that up by just giving us the facts.

15

There is a lot of speculation out there of what you had,

A.

The original plan was to run from TCP to Sharana.

I needed

16

to go as light as possible.

17

being caught out in the middle of the daytime, visually, I needed to

18

look not out of place.

19

obviously is going to look out of place.

20

desert with a uniform on is going to look out of place.

21

was being lightweight and bare essentials.

22

the pockets and that was it.

23

so I had water.

E0155

I also knew that the possibility of

A guy walking through with a giant weapon,

Guy walking through the
The point

Whatever my pants had in

I pulled out the bladder to my CamelBak

I knew that if I was going to be exerting myself in

153

that environment I needed water.

Enough that would get me through

the day but not too much that would weigh me down.

with me were what was in my pockets, my wallet. I had my camera. I

always had that, even when I was on patrol; always had a digital

camera.

I had my notebook.

poems.

A newspaper article about a guy who had made a record sailing

a boat; self-contained sailing for a thousand days or something.

I had that in there.

like knives.

Things I took

I had a few personal journal entries and

So

I had my knives because I am a knife person, I

They are very functional tools.

They have a very large

10

meaning out west.

I also had my pocket-knife; I always have a

11

pocket-knife.

12

of nuts from my trail mix, my compass, and my belt.

I grabbed a pack of chicken meat from an MRE, a pack

13

Q.

The Afghan dress you just stuffed in your cargo pockets?

14

A.

I stuffed that in my cargo pockets and when I got out there

15
16
17

I just threw it on.

Q.

So the water you had with you was--you brought your

CamelBak with you, or you just took the bladder out of the CamelBak?

18

A.

I pulled the bladder out of the CamelBak.

19

Q.

Do you recall the route you took?

20

A.

The first moment out of the TCP, yeah.

21

Q.

How did you depart the TCP?

22

A.

I was down on the lower part of the TCP.

E0156

154

1
2

Q.

So you werent up on the OP, on this rotation you were down

on the----

A.

In the C-Wire.

Q.

Do you recall whose truck you were on?

5
6
7
8
9
10

You had about 4 or

5 MRAPS down there?

A.

I was by the truck where the LT was.

It wasnt my

truck---Q.

Thats where you would have been pulling guard rotation on

that truck, Lieutenant Billings truck?

A.

11

Yes.
So I was there.

The way the TCP was set-up, they had Hesco

12

barriers and then C-wire and the backside had the hill on it where

13

the OP was.

14

up top and a few of the Afghan guys were down in the TCP too.

15

happened was, these guys, because they--they cook up there, they come

16

down here, and instead of going--the Hesco barrier is here and

17

instead of walking out of the opening, the gate, and then up the hill

18

to get to those--what they did was they just went up the back of the

19

TCP and a very small mountain, where there was C-wire and they had

20

thrown a plastic crate down on top of the c-wire and that allowed

21

them to cross over the C-wire without getting tangled up and then

22

they could go up to there.

23

our OP that we were starting to man, because we shifted it from that

E0157

The C-wire ran up that OP.

Afghan guys had their stuff

What

They were positioned here on the hill and

155

little knoll over, so that were within site of the TCP, of our guys.

There was a gap there, kind of, not really a saddle but a slow

incline from the top down to towards this OP.

ravine that was where the road was where they drove cars up.

was one of the roads.

side.

to the top.

this area--heres Hesco barriers, heres the OP, they had a view out

here.

The ravine went down here and there was a road that cut that

10

way.

Now, guards at the OP, if they were off the sandbags that they

11

sat on, leaning out the window with their NODs, they had a fuller

12

view of whats out there.

13

staring out the window, your view doesnt pick-up for about a hundred

14

yards out.

15

blind spot.

16

back.

17

was going on at that TCP.

18

knew that was a blind spot and I knew the Afghan guys didnt have

19

NODs and I knew that those guys in that particular bunker thing,

20

theyre not going to be paying attention.

21

them and watching them from our OP or watching them from the TCP. I

22

could just see the way they conducted themselves.

23

they could be searching the area down in front of them was by

Then there was a small

That

There was another road that went onto the

So there was a little ravine there and that was the road out
The OP here that our guys were manning, it had view of

Sitting on the sandbags, slouching, and

Maybe a little less.

Theres a blind spot.

Its a huge

They are focused on the front and I was focused on the

I know my platoon and I know the amount of the alertness that

E0158

I knew the capabilities of the NODs, so I

156

I knew that from knowing

The only way that

flashlight.

So you could see them flinging the flashlight about.

The guys over here werent worried about it because they had the

Americans right there and they knew we had NODs, so they werent

worried about this part of it, because Americans were there.

guys were obviously asleep and they werent out there with

flashlights.

the Americans were there.

the OP was situated, the way the sandbags inside were situated, and

then falling into the habit of not being too concerned about what was

These

That was--they blinded themselves by being relaxed, as

We blinded ourselves because of the way

10

going on out there because that is just what happened.

11

what was going on.

12

stupid enough to try to go back, because going back looks bad and Im

13

not going to risk that; that is just stupid.

14

route.

15

from----

So it was a one-way route.

I wouldnt have been

I knew it was a one-way

When I left it was quiet. I went up the hill.

16

CDC: What do you mean, It looks bad?

17

A.

That is was

I got out

It looks bad, somebody coming towards the OP in the dark.

18

That looks bad [an enemy trying to get close].

19

CDC: Okay, I just wanted to clarify.

20
A.
Whereas someone leaving the OP would look like [a friendly
leaving the OP]---21

CDC: A good way to get shot, is what youre saying.

22

Q.

23

So if youre on the U.S. OP and youre looking out over the

road at the fields you were walking to the left of that?

E0159

157

A.

Looking out, I would have gone down to the left and hung a

Q.

Down the road and towards that----

A.

The little town.

Q.

Malak was the name of that town.

A.

The closest--it was the closest place.

left.

I would have gotten into the labyrinth of alleyways, but I

had a pretty good idea of what direction to keep going in.

kept going through there and it took me out.

So I just

So here is the hill and

10

here is Malak. I went out through and I headed out into the alleyways

11

and it took me somewhere behind the OP, behind the hill the OP was

12

set up on.

13

there that I changed directions.

14

was the belief----

15

From there I started out into the desert and it was out
I swung further north because that

I/O: Hold on a second, let me just grab one of these--I was

16

going to do this later, but we will do it now.

17

CDC: Should we just come in with it?

18

I/O: No, Ill just bring it out.

19

This is Exhibit 6.

[Viewing Exhibit 6] This is your--the

20

COP, so down here is where you guys were.

21

had the vehicles, and this is route Audi, behind this one is Dodge

22

going this way.

23

and theres the two Afghan OPs back this way.

E0160

You had the HLZ, and you

So, up here on the top of the hill is the U.S. OP

158

This was that dirt

road that went out there, so I think behind here is where the wire

went about half way up.

here.

thing and the Afghans would go up to the left to a couple of their

OPs and you guys would go right to your U.S. OPs.

Does that sound about right?

Thats where the guy had the plastic thing

So you went up behind here, you had walked over the plastic

A.

Yes.

Q.

So thats the U.S. one and these are the Afghan ones and

this is probably wire here or something.

10

there is a truck there.

11

lieutenant?

12
13

A.

Down here it looks like

So, is that the truck you were in with the

I was over here [pointing to the second truck located in

Exhibit 6.]

There is a truck parked here.

14

Q.

So not the first truck, but the next one over?

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

Did you sleep next to the truck like everybody else?

17

did you have a place in between them or off a little bit to your

18

side?

19

A.

Or

It was directly next to the HESCO barriers which lined this

20

right here and the truck was right there and it was in-between the

21

truck and the HESCO barriers that we all camped out.

22

Q.

E0161

You had a little one-man tent, or two-person tent?

159

A.

Yeah, I had a one-man tent.

In the daytime, because of the

sun, shade was needed and we didnt have too much shade.

good for shade during the daytime.

Q.

So it was

I will take this, because I dont want you to draw on it,

but you can use this to point.

or so, you left your truck or your tent and you headed which way?

A.

Give me an idea of, around midnight

So, I left the truck and went to about here and the other

truck was parked about right here.

I got up [inaudible] got up

through here behind the OP, in between that, so here, down here.

10

Q.

Okay, thats what I thought.

11

A.

Then I just hugged the hill and so this is the original OP

12

where we were first set up, then they turned that over to the

13

Afghans.

14

flashing their flashlights around, but they never saw me.

15

into here, I think, I remember I got right into an alleyway here.

16

Theres a school here.

17

here I made sure [inaudible].

18

darkness--I just started to slowly follow the terrain.

19

the mass civil lights at the night knowing that there are some walls

20

or something.

21

So I came out somewhere around here and I could see them

I got into here, then here.

Then I got

Somewhere in

Somehow I ended up--I started-I would dodge

At about here Im going off of my natural direction.

22

Direction just kind of meandered and it was to take me around because

23

that direction was--thats the direction of FOB Sharana.

E0162

160

We take

this road.

was to head out there, the flatlands, and cut up that way.

was the road that they were setting all the IEDs on, the idea was

twenty minutes out I was about here.

guys are coming from--I thought I heard somebody saying that they

were coming from somewhere over here.

and I was kind of and that was where I kind of got--those were the

couple hours that I wasnt going off a compass and I kind of got into

the hills over here.

10
11

This is IED lane.

All of this was IED Lane.

The idea
If this

So the idea was, what if these

So I just swung out that way

I know I was over there and I knew FOB Sharana

was in this direction.

Q.

There was a--you probably saw it in the media reports and

12

all that.

13

ran into some kid, some kid said he saw you crawling through the

14

wheat at 0602.

15
16
17

A.

They went out on a dismounted patrol after you departed,

At no point in time was I ever crawling through any farms

or farm fields.
Q.

And the way you described it, you were nowhere around here

18

at 0602, so by the time the kids were going to school, you were long

19

out of the way.

20
21
22

A.

I was out of view of any buildings.

There might have been

a few huts on the horizon.

Q.

23

You know how the Afghan kids can be, I got it.
[Putting away Exhibit 6] Thanks, that helps.

E0163

161

Okay, lets go ahead and take a quick look at this one, too

[taking out Exhibit 4].

map.

This is Exhibit 4.

This is just a bigger

Just again, to orient you, you were down here at COP Mest,

so this is Malak.

Mest is right down here.

This is going up to

Sharana, and then you can see this is probably when you start

hitting--see that terrain there?

A.

Yup.

Q.

That is probably where you started hitting some of those

10
11

mountains.
A.

I think, if I remember correctly, I may have dropped over

12

to the other side.

13

the other side.

14

can kind of see here all of the bumps and rises.

15

have the gullies and wash-outs.

16
17

Q.

Somewhere around here I think I dropped over to

Thats where I got caught up into hilly land.

You

Then of course you

Youre about halfway to Sharana at this point, I mean, I

dont know.

Do you have any idea about what that distance is?

18

A.

Its about 10 to 20 miles.

19

Q.

I was going to say, its about 30 kilometers or something

20

like that.

21
22
23

So you went and you came out, went up over the top, on the
backside, and then when do you think daybreak came?
A.

E0164

Daybreak came around four.

162

Q.

How far do you think you were at that point?

A.

I was still walking.

I was probably, I would say I was

about 11 kilometers.

Q.

So you were up here on this--on the backside of the hills

and at this point you, youre still in your uniform or had you put

on----

A.

By daylight I put----

Q.

You put your stuff on?

A.

Yeah.

10

Q.

Then you were heading out this way and where do you think

11

you were when you ran into the motorcycles?

12

A.

I was about here.

13

Q.

So right about there?

14

A.

It was within the daylight--it was closer to daybreak than

Q.

So the sun came up around four and you think it was

15
16
17

noon.

roughly, what, 0800?

18

A.

About, yeah.

19

Q.

[Putting away Exhibit 4] Thank you.

20

Do you remember who else was on that truck with you?

21

A.

It was----

22

Q.

[Looking at Exhibit 8] This isnt current, obviously, and

23

it wasnt taken at the time, but it gives you an idea of the COP.

E0165

163

So

this is the U.S. OP.

This is the Afghan OPs.

Heres your COP down

here.

was a truck here by this entrance; that was Billings truck, right?

Theres the HESCO barriers you were talking about.

So there

A.

Yeah.

Q.

There was another one a little further down here and you

6
7

were sort of in-between them?

A.

Yeah.
So theres--see this entrance right here?

Q.

Yeah.

10

A.

So the truck was kind of right there and we were right

11
12
13

about here and we camped out here.

Q.

So there was the truck at the bottom of the hill here, but

you were on this one?

14

A.

Mm-Hmm.

15

Q.

Do you remember who the NCOIC was of that particular truck?

16

A.

Not that particular truck, I just know that was the----

17

Q.

Is that the one you were pulling guard on?

18

A.

Yeah, that was the lieutenants truck.

19

Q.

So its the LTs truck--the LTs truck was here.

Thats

20

not the truck that you would normally ride in, but it was the one you

21

were pulling guard in on that night.

E0166

164

A.

The platoon sergeants truck was right here and there was a

couple other trucks there.

[inaudible] right there.

Q.

5
6

It might have been the direct fire that

Platoon Sergeant. Platoon Leader. And you, obviously.

Do you recall who else was on the truck with you?

A.

It was Specialist Good, it was Corporal Gaughan,

LT, it was Private Lanford.

might have--yeah, and Private First Class Cross.

9
10

Q.

13

Yeah.

I think it

Good, Gaughan, Lanford, yourself,

Lieutenant Billings, and Cross.

11
12

So thats six:

There was one more.

it was

Do you happen to remember who relieved you from guard and

which guard shifts you had?
A.

It was supposed to be, the person who was going off of

14

guard----

15

[The court reporter handed a document to the investigating officer.]

16

I/O: Thank you.

17

I gotta tell them----

18

CDC: Fox News?

19

I/O: No, no, no, sorry.

This is--okay, this is Exhibit 8.

20

wont know--all they know is that Im looking at a map.

21

the overview of OP Mest.

22

where the PLs truck and the Platoon Sergeants truck was.

E0167

They

Exhibit 8 is

That is where Sergeant Bergdahl pointed out

165

On the PLs truck was the PL, Gaughan, Good, Lanford,

yourself, and Cross.

replace and who replaced you?

4
5
6

A.

Do you recall who--in the rotation, who did you

The rotation--Corporal Gaughan was supposed to be before me

then it was my rotation, me next.

Q.

That night I think it was----

Let me ask you more generally because that was a very

specific question.

That was a hell of a long time ago.

speaking, how did the rotations work?

guard?

How long were the shifts?

Generally

How did you know that you had

Im assuming that when you were

10

on, you were up in the turret.

11

and how long were the shifts, and how did you swap out, more

12

generally speaking?

13
14

A.

How often were you up in the turret,

The guard roster would be made for a 12-hour period.

Then

it was two-hour shifts.

15

Q.

So a 12-hour roster and two-hour shifts.

16

A.

That should have broken it down to----

17

Q.

Lieutenant Billings pulled guard also?

18

A.

No.

19

Q.

So it would have been five of you:

20

Lanford, and Cross.

21

every couple of hours.

22

you, Good, Gaughan,

The five of you guys would have rotated out

Do you recall what weapon you guys had up in the turret?

E0168

166

1
2
3

A.

I believe that truck had a .240 mount.

.240 or a .50 cal.

Q.

It was either a

We didnt have a .203 up there.

Do you recall when your last shift was?

You remember

leaving around midnight or so.

that you made your way up over the--through the--over the hill?

A.

How soon after your last shift was it

I think I finished my shift.

It was Corporal Gaughan on

shift, about the time his shift was ending. It was after that ending

that the next person went up that I had left. What happened was, I

think I had finished my shift two hours before Corporal Gaughans

10

shift.

11

left a gap of--they wouldnt be calling for me until five or six the

12

next morning.

13

that next morning.

14

So that left a gap before it came to be my turn again.

Q.

That left a gap of nobody knowing I was gone until

So you were on shift, Gaughan replaced you, Gaughan came

15

off shift, somebody replaced him, and thats about when you departed

16

and you would have had a good six or eight hours before anyone was

17

going to come looking for you for your next shift.

18

have been daylight by then.

19

because everybody would have been sleeping, or doing their own thing.

20

So we know when you were on guard.

21

It probably would

They wouldnt have seen you absent

You dont recall when your next shift was?

22

A.

It was just the next morning.

23

Q.

0600?

E0169

0800?

Something like that?

167

A.

I think it was like five or six, possibly.

Q.

Just to go back to the whole--you mentioned DUSTWUN

earlier.

While you were putting together your plan and thinking all

the things you were thinking, youre also, I dont want to put words

in your mouth, but youre thinking at some point they are going to

know you are missing.

time you are coming on guard shift.

8
9

You are expecting that point to come about the

How would they discover you are missing?

A.

I wouldnt show up--basically, the guy who is on guard

10

would be like, Bergdahls got to replace me, and he would either be

11

the one to go wake me up or he would call to someone and say to wake

12

Bergdahl up because it was his turn for guard shift.

13
14

CDC: Just bear with me, when did the unit realize you werent
there?

Because that would disclose when the shift was.

15

I/O: Right.

16

CDC: I forget, we quickly looked at the AR 15-6----

17

Q.

If you read the 15-6, you got a variety of answers and

18

thats because when they were asked the question it was like 11 days

19

later.

20

investigating officer was asking them, it was everywhere between 0630

21

and 0830.

22

In that 11 days, they had a very high OPTEMPO.

A.

E0170

Thats about the right time.

168

So, when the

Q.

So it was in that window anyhow and I dont know if we are

going to be able to nail it down precisely because the guard roster

wasnt like a Form 6 that was published or anything.

A.

It was a piece of paper, scrap, notebook paper.

Q.

Where did they post that so you knew, did they just tape it

6
7
8
9

up inside of the MRAP or put it up in the turret?

A.

I think they put it inside the MRAP on a spot where we

could all look at it.

Q.

Again, you put that many guys on a truck and they are

10

pulling a couple hours a piece, you had a good eight hours during the

11

day and probably it would have been unusual to not see you during

12

that whole period.

13

some training, .50 cal classes or some kind of training.

14

nobody would have been looking.

15

your movement.

16

it gets you moving.

17

At night,

You had some cover of darkness for

You had some cushion behind your back on the COP and

Who was it you talked to about what happens with the

18

DUSTWUN?

19

DUSTWUN means now.

20

I know that there was also some--you guys did

A.

Did you use the term DUSTWUN or is that--you know what

Is that the way they were describing it then?

When we first got there and we were on that opposite little

21

hillside for the first OP, somebody--because it was such a joke.

22

Someone--we started writing, because you are supposed to do radio

23

checks, people started writing OP Joke.

E0171

169

This is OP Joke.

Well,

someone had wrote DUSTWUN, This is OP DUSTWUN.

Because we were out

of sight of the unit, of our guys.

eyes on us, and we had the village right there.

was, This is OP DUSTWUN.

it was Sergeant Louis, I asked him, Whats DUSTWUN mean?

that DUSTWUN is when a Soldier goes missing.

We had only Afghan guys who had

So it was--the joke

I was sitting there one day and I believe

He said

Q.

Did he describe to you what happens when that happens?

A.

He gave me a good enough description.

He said, basically,

What happens in DUSTWUN is you call DUSTWUN over the radio when a

10

Soldier has been missing, or when a Soldier was taken in combat, and

11

everyone goes on full alert.

12

the military system and my ability to run simulations, I simply ran

13

it through my mind, A Soldier goes missing, you call DUSTWUN,

14

everybody gets alerted, that means what happens?

15

didnt know exactly that it would be on--its a massive scale.

16

knew that the call goes out, DUSTWUN, and it puts everybody on high

17

alert.

18

branch that is within that area and beyond that, this had happened

19

and the situation has gone to red alert.

20

information, but I had enough to understand that DUSTWUN is a big

21

deal and it goes to the top.

22

It only takes me--my understanding of

It doesnt just stay within Army ranks.

E0172

It goes to every

I got very minimal

CDC: Lights and buzzers would go off.

170

What happens is--I

I

1
2

Q.

It

wasnt principally the response----

3
4

Which was the principal reason you were doing this.

A.

Its going to go all the way to the top and they cant bury

Q.

You cant pretend that its not happening.

it.

You mentioned before lunch that your expectation was 24

hours, 48 hours, thats when its going to make its way up the chain.

Of course, it happened significantly faster than that.

A.

It was out of my----

10

Q.

You didnt know that at the time.

11

If you dont mind, take me to--because I know when you did

12

your intel debriefings, and your SERE debriefings, and all of that.

13

I think they were very careful to start at 9 July and go forward from

14

9 July and they were very careful not to go anywhere sooner than 9

15

July because they didnt want to interfere with this conversation.

16
17
18

Is that true?

That is what I was told?

That was the

effort anyhow.
A.

That was their effort.

It was within the next--so where I

19

picked up in the SERE debriefings was when I first met Mullah

20

Sangeen.

21

directly into the mountains where Mullah Sangeen was.

22

couple days.

E0173

They took me, from where they picked me up, they took me

171

That was a

Q.

So lets go back then, because you have done a very

thorough job, from what I understand.

Again, I didnt participate in

the SERE debriefings, the intel debriefings, the criminal

investigation debriefings, or any of that stuff.

those things were all very, very, beneficial, very, very helpful.

Kim was glad to hear that, she said, Make sure Bowe understands

that, because he will want to know that all of his suffering did some

good.

that process but my understanding is, all of your suffering did bear

The word I got were

I cant speak with authority on that because I wasnt part of

10

a lot of value in those areas.

11

Poppin and that whole crew, for the intel de-briefers, and I dont

12

know who they were, and for the criminal investigator de-briefers,

13

and I dont know who they were, but my understanding is all that

14

stuff was really very, very, valuable.

15

telling you earlier.

16

It was important to do all those things.

17

it.

18

For the SERE folks, absolutely--Doc

Which reinforces what I was

Its why I didnt want to interfere with it.

Thats why I stayed out of

What I would like you to do is, to the greatest extent

19

possible, take me from--is there anything you can add or need to add

20

from coming off guard shift, Gaughan replaced me, Gaughan came off of

21

guard shift, somebody replaced him, it was about midnight, you left

22

your one-man tent.

23

described earlier, went out, up the hill, the route that you showed

E0174

You just brought the things with you that you

172

me earlier, by the school, up to the--on the west side of Malak

really, up over the small mountain range there, 0400 or so it becomes

daylight.

sometime, 0800 or so, somehow the sheep herder or somebody notices

you dont walk like an Afghan, even though its hard to tell from a

distance.

up there.

8
9
10

You put on Afghan garb, continue off in that direction,

The Taliban show up on a couple of motorcycles, so pick it

First of all, is there anything you need to add backwards?

A.

No.

CDC: Yeah, just hold that thought for one second.

The pick-up;

11

we will just call that the pick-up point.

Going back a bit, there

12

were references in the AR 15-6 to the disposition of your personal

13

property, right?

Is that worth a minute to comment on?

14

I/O: Sure.

15

CDC: Your computer and stuff, its a loose end.

16

I/O: If you want to go back forward, the question would be, you

17

mailed stuff home?

18

A.

Yeah.

19

CDC: Whats that about?

20

I/O: What did you mail home and why did you mail it home?

21

A.

The understanding was that I was going to get myself into a

22

huge amount of trouble.

23

was taught was that they were going to steal.

E0175

Im in the Army.

173

One of the first things I

Someone is going to

steal from me.

So my personal belongings were going to be one of the

first things I would lose control of is who deals with my personal

belongings.

couple books that had sentimental value for me, just in the sense

that they had meaning to me.

my Godmother, Kim.

entrance, they will come pick me up and right there I am going to be

arrested.

lose all control over my own effects and anything else that I had.

10

The idea was to send those home, get them out of the way, so that

11

they were not stolen.

12

things that I had--that had sentimental value.

My computer, my journal, and a couple books. I had a

I took those and I mailed them home to

I understood that once I come to the FOB

Im going to be in-processed from there and I am going to

That was just maintaining control over my

13

Q.

So you mailed one box of stuff home to Kim.

14

A.

I mailed one box----

15

Q.

It was that stuff.

16

A.

Yeah, my laptop, journal, a couple books, and my Kindle.

17

Q.

You have read the open source reports as well as I have,

18

and some of it was in the 15-6, but you went to finance and withdrew

19

$300?

20

A.

Yeah.

21

Q.

What was the plan--the purpose of that?

22

A.

The plan was--running the simulation you try to take in--

23

one of the things I learned from reading is having cash to bribe

E0176

174

never hurts.

When you are in a third-world country, dealing with

people, whether its local or whether its a sergeant, having cash

that you could use to bribe somebody for one reason or another never

hurts.

scenario.

goes, What are you doing?

bunch of money and giving him a bunch of money, you know.

has a gun and wants to rob me, then if he gets a lot of money he is

going to be happy with himself and hes not going to be mad or

Withdrawing that money was basically me covering a what-if

What if Im walking along and some guy sees me, stops and
I need options at that point.

Having a
Or if he

10

disappointed.

11

to go, Look what I got.

12

wanting to tell anyone because he has a whole bunch of money.

13

to cover that, what-if situation.

14
15

Q.

He is going to take everything from me and hes going

And then he is going to go his way, not
It was

Did you leave it in dollars or did you convert some to

Afghani?

16

A.

I got some Afghani.

17

Q.

When you withdrew it from finance, you got some in Afghani

18

and some in U.S.

19

A.

Some in U.S., yes.

20

Q.

Was that all in your wallet when you departed then?

21

A.

Yes.

E0177

175

Q.

I am trying to think if there were other--since you brought

that--did you--the infamous lieutenant colonel familiar with the

investigation said you left a note back on your bunk.

A.

No, I didnt leave anything.

Q.

You did not leave a note----

A.

No.

Q.

There is no evidence of that, but it was reported in a

couple of news--actually one news source reported it and the others

kept reporting it.

10
11

CDC: Which reminds me, just another one of these odds and ends,
there were reports that you wandered off in the past.

12

A.

I dont know----

13

CDC: What is that about?

14

A.

Ive never wandered offthat would be considered

15

wandering off.

When we were up on the OP making trips to the TCP was

16

a common thing we did.

17

TCP.

18

-if someone said that he wandered off 50 feet from where the OP was,

19

to go to the bathroom or something like that, that could easily be

20

blown up into, Oh, he wandered off on a regular basis.

We would have to hike from the OP down to the

A couple times I took aid to the Afghan guys.

21

It was--I cant-

Did I ever leave a patrol or did I ever leave the OP to go

22

cross what would be considered a safe zone?

23

anything like that.

E0178

176

No. I never did

Q.

I can offer a possible explanation for that. I am reaching

a little bit, but it is very plausible in my mind.

You had mentioned

in some of your correspondence on e-mail or Facebook to home.

dont recall who it was that you were sending it to, it might have

been Kim or Kayla, you had mentioned that, I am going outside the

wire but you were referring to leaving Sharana and going to COP

Mest.

interpret that as, Im going outside the wire again. I cant

remember exactly the words you used, but you were--he was referring

Someone who is not familiar with that would see that and

10

to leaving FOB Sharana, the big base, and going out to the smaller

11

base, the smaller COP.

12

terminology or the terrain would misinterpret that and say, He did

13

this on a regular basis.

14
15
16

Someone who is not familiar with the

Is that a reasonable explanation?

I am not saying thats

correct---A.

Yeah, that would be an explanation because in those

17

correspondence I never explained that I was leaving the FOB and going

18

to--I just said, We are leaving the wire. I am going out of the wire

19

again tomorrow.

20

CDC: Did other people do the same thing?

21

A.

22

CDC: No, not writing home but----

E0179

Write home like that?

I dont know.

177

1
2

A.

What, leaving the wire?

Yeah, my whole platoon left the

wire.

CDC: Yeah, this has been cast in kind of a snotty way.

I/O: I agree.

I concur with you. I mean, my--we dont see any

evidence that this is a regular occurrence, that you did this all the

time.

corroborate this?

corroborate it and the way to negate it was this understanding that,

when you are writing home you are going to say, Im going outside

We looked into that.

We were trying to find--how do we

Or how do we negate it?

10

the wire.

11

leaving the wire.

12

would refer to it that way.

13

other end too.

I was not able to

Thats like leaving a large base out on a patrol.

Youre not wandering off on your own.

Youre

Everybody

Everybody would misunderstand it on the

14

CDC: Yeah.

15

SBJ: Yeah.

16

I/O: Its kind of, partly, what PFCs do.

Frankly, generals do

17

it too; everybody embellishes when they write home.

Its part of the

18

thing.

19
20
21

Its part of the romanticism.

CDC: Before you pick-up with the pick-up point, let me make a
head call.
I/O:

Maybe everybody will do the same.

Yup, okay, sounds good.

Five minutes.

22

[The interview recessed on 6 August 2014.]

23

[The interview resumed on 6 August 2014.]

E0180

178

Q.

Sergeant Bergdahl, let me ask you--we were on this talking

about other things that were out there, the computer, understand why

you mailed the computer home, understand the cash withdrawal.

Eugene, you had brought up allegations that you had walked off or

were previously outside the wire.

to, it was in the 15-6, I cant remember whose statement it was, but

they talked about NTC.

been practicing your stealth, crawling around at NTC.

I did talk

That you had gone outside the wire or you had

Did you read his statement?

10

A.

I briefed over it.

11

Q.

Is it accurate?

I know what he is talking about.

Just give me your version of it.

12

ask you if it is accurate or not.

13

more important.

14

We nailed that one.

A.

I wont

Just tell me your version; that is

So towards the end of NTC we had firing ranges.

One day it

15

was our turn to run an M4 qualifying range.

16

we were supposed to do is just run it.

17

sitting around, everybody else is qualifying.

18

there wasnt much to do.

19

you need me to do?

20

Cross, Private First Class Cross, and Private First Class Barrow,

21

they were the two gun teams.

22

the biggest guys, the tallest guys on the gun teams.

23

responsible for sitting out by the entrance to the--the entrance to

E0181

We get out there and all

So there is a lot of us just

Im a SAW-gunner, so

I asked Sergeant Duffy, Is there anything

He said, Nope, just stand-by.

Well, Chris--or

The two senior guys on the gun team,

179

They were

the range, what they were supposed to do was make sure nobody came in

and they were supposed to raise and lower a flag, something like

that.

range which was maybe 50 yards off.

desert, so you have very open ground except bushes.

cacti or bushes that you would find in the desert.

would be here and they are firing off that way.

the entrance to the range.

the road would come into range.

All they were doing was lying out there by the entrance to the
Its NTC. Of course its a
Typical desert
So the range

Over here, would be

So the road would go this way and then

All this, so theres the road, and

10

right here there is just wild ground, desert ground with bushes and

11

rocks and stream beds, very open ground.

12

meters in-between where they were and where we were.

13

came and we werent doing anything.

14

qualify.

15

were done. Its going to be forever.

16

so I decided, well, because I had done something that me and some of

17

the other guys in my basic training did. When we were at FTX we took

18

turns at testing each other, seeing--sneaking up on each other,

19

seeing how alert we were.

20

were trying to keep each other awake.

21

on these guys because Cross, he likes, he wanted to go Ranger but he

22

got into Ranger but decided not to do it because it was too much

23

yelling.

E0182

So like I said, maybe 50

So nighttime

People were still trying to

Last word we got was that we are going to be here until

Im sitting here doing nothing

A lot of us were falling asleep and we

Its his personal choice.

I got into my--lets sneak up

He got out of Ranger.

180

So hes

just a funny guy [good humored guy].

And Barrows a cool guy. Theyre my

friends. So I decide, All right, well Im going to play a trick on them.

Lets see if I can sneak up on them. So I take my boots off and I

basically use my sense of direction to try and hone in on them in the

dark.

then I--because what I was going to do was I was going to crawl over

all along the ground.

the ground.

So I took my boots off, put my NODs in my boots, left my

boots there.

And then so I basically went this far with my NODs and

I took my NODs with me and that kind of got me halfway.

But

You cant have NODs when youre crawling on

10

when I was about here I got rid of them and then crept up on them and

11

I got within probably five feet before they heard me and Cross got up

12

and started looking around and then he saw me, right?

13

just, you know, an idea.

So that was

See what I could do.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

Were supposed to be having war games.

16

Q.

Sure, right.

17

A.

This is supposed to be training.

18

Q.

Right.

19

A.

Were supposed to be--if theyre on guard duty----

20

Q.

Right.

21

A.

----how alert are they going to be?

22
23

basically fooling around, kind of.

Q.

E0183

Why did you take your boots off?

181

You know, it was just

A.

Because they make too much noise.

Q.

Oh.

A.

I was literally on all fours creeping towards them, kind of

like a Native American would be in moccasins or whatever, just

creeping toward them.

6
7

Q.

Some of the report is about, I think, it was Cross.

Does

Cross have a .09 mil?

A.

Yeah.

Q.

Okay, so you guys were asking these guys about, Hey, what

10

would happen if your .09 mil was missing and all that?

11

your thinking was.

Tell me what

First of all, is that true?

12

A.

Yeah.

13

Q.

And then, you know, what were you thinking?

14

A.

So Cross was the gunner in the truck that I was supposed to

15

provide security on.

And I was sitting in the truck in the daytime

16

and Cross was there and he basically--you know, because I was a

17

little annoyed about the fact that the Armys not giving us side

18

arms.

19

know, give me a little more than--Im a SAW gunner.

You know, just because when I got over there its like, you

20

Q.

Right.

21

A.

Im supposed to--I run out of ammunition, thats a lot of

22
23

effort to get another round, another drum on there.

Q.

E0184

Something in the meantime.

182

A.

Give me a .09 millimeter because if were going to be doing

close quarters and it gets bad, Id be more comfortable if I had a

side arm but they werent doing that.

saw him.

took it off and just chucked [he actually just placed it in the truck] it

into the MRAP and it was just sitting there. Im going, Dude, what--you

just--why dont you have it on you? Because if I had a handgun like that,

Id have it on me. So, Im like, Why dont you have it on you? And hes

like, I dont need it on me. And I said, Well, what if it disappears?

So I was sitting there and I

He basically just--you know, when we got to the TCP, he

10

What if someone takes it? Its a .09 millimeter. You know, weve got Afghan

11

guys walking past here. So I was like, Why dont you keep it on

12

you?

13

interest I had with the .09 millimeter was, that briefly crossed my

14

mind was Im not stupid enough to know--I know that its dangerous

15

out there.

16

comfortable with a weapon, obviously.

17

I wish I had a .09 millimeter.

18

have made it to the FOB or I would have made it to Sharana because I

19

would have been able to--or maybe not.

Hes like, I dont need to keep it on me. Now, the other

And I know Im going to need a weapon. Id be more

Im going out into a war zone.

Had I had a .09 millimeter, I would

But I would have had a----

20

Q.

You could have killed the two guys on the motorcycle.

21

A.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was because--when they approached me it was

22

like I couldnt do anything.

23

approached me, they didnt know what they were dealing with when the

E0185

If I ran, they would--but when they

183

first approached me.

They didnt know I was an American right away.

They were more confused about me than anything else.

projectile weapon that could keep that distance between me and them,

then I could have done something.

Q.

Okay.

A.

But I didnt.

Had I had a

And the reason why I didnt take the .09

millimeter with me was because he answered my question.

What happens if your 9 millimeter goes missing?

He said, Id get

in a lot of trouble.

Ive signed for it.

Thats my sensitive item.

I said,

10

You know, he explains it, not those exact words, but he explains that

11

to the extent of if that goes missing, I get in trouble.

12

Q.

Right.

13

A.

Now my whole point of doing what I was doing was to make

14

sure that these guys were protected.

15

unnecessarily because if I took his .09 millimeter, then theyd be

16

like well, you knew about it.

17

that, an accessory to all that.

18

position.

19

because alls Im doing is going from point A to point B.

20

physically fit.

21

Theyre not going to know its me or know its an American.

22

just like, you know, Id just leave it.

E0186

Causing trouble for him

You helped him.

Now youre, what is

So I didnt want to put him in that

So I was just like, all right, you know what?

Thats the worst case scenario.

184

Im safe
Im

Ive got my Jamay.

Ill take knives.

So I was
You know,

and that was--so that was why I asked him that question.

explained it and that is why I left the .09 millimeter behind.

Q.

Okay.

He

Yeah, and I think that in our conversations with

your platoon mates they all understand that and believe it, believe

it or not.

things who Im not sure you should be too hard on----

I mean, even the ones who have been saying some unkind

A.

No, I----

Q.

----because again, these guys are getting exploited just

like everybody else is.

10

A.

Yeah.

11

Q.

They all--I mean, I would ask them before you and I had a

12

chance to have this conversation, Id ask them, Does it make sense

13

that he would depart the COP but not take his weapons with him?

14

they said, Well, he didnt want us to get in trouble.

15

Does it make sense that he would leave the COP and yet hed be

16

worrying about you guys getting in trouble?

And most of them said,

17

If you know PFC Bergdahl, that makes sense.

He did not want for us

18

to get into trouble.

And

I said,

19

A.

Yeah.

20

Q.

So its not--it doesnt make a lot of sense to a lot of

21

people.

22

A.

Theres not a tremendous amount of immediate logic to that.

E0187

Yeah.

185

Q.

So you got to understand why people would be confused by

A.

Yeah, I understand.

Q.

But when you work on it for 52 days and then I have a

that.

chance to talk to you, I can kind of see it.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

So, okay.

A lot of speculation about whether or not you

had help or didnt have help leaving the COP.

Crazy Eyes, these buddies of yours in ANP or whatever.

10

I mean, Ice Cream,

Did they help

you?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

Did they look the other way?

13

A.

No.

14

Q.

I mean----

15

A.

My interaction with those guys was my attempts to COIN

Did they know about it?

16

basically.

17

point of--in the area that we lived in, in the rural area of Idaho

18

out in the country there was a huge ranch that was nearby that owned

19

like--this rancher, he was called Falconer and he owns, basically

20

owned that area.

21

about.

22

Q.

E0188

And growing up, my family being the Christians, made it a

His ranchlands stretched for more miles than I knew

Okay.

186

A.

And what he did was he was a sheep rancher along with a

cattle rancher and everything else.

So growing up what would happen

was these sheep herders that would be hired out of Chile or Peru

would take these sheep camps and push these sheep past our house and

up into the northern mountains to feed them.

Q.

Yeah.

A.

So my parents made it a point of being missionaries and

every Saturday or every other Saturday or Sunday, whatever it was,

during the season that the sheepherders were out there, we would

10

drive out into the middle of nowhere to meet these guys because

11

theyd spend the majority of their summers with conversation with

12

nobody.

13

with an understanding of how you interact with people from another

14

country and how to be sympathetic, to be understanding, what it is to come

15

from a third world country, what it is to be a person who doesnt

16

speak English, interacting with another person who speaks a different

17

language.

18

youre trying to connect to somebody who is from such a vastly

19

different place, you have to make that connection through actions.

20

So what I was trying to do because these guys, theyre up on the hill

21

with us.

22

the battle.

23

So theyd be extremely happy to see somebody.

Q.

E0189

So I grew up

So I grew up understanding that if you try to connect--if

If something happens, were relying on them to help us in

Sure.
187

1
2

A.

Pissing them off or doing something to insult them, thats

going to get a bullet in our back.

Q.

Right.

A.

You insult that guy, well, you never know, he might be the

guy with the RPG who decides to accidentally swing that thing towards

our direction.

guys was basically it was like interacting with the Peruvians or the

Chileans.

So I understood that.

So my interaction with these

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

It was trying to get past the language barrier through

11

actions.

Smile.

Try to use your understanding of local culture.

12

Tea is a very big thing there so when they bring tea, dont say, No,

13

Im not going to drink it.

14

trying to be hospitable.

Because thats an insult.

Theyre

You might not like the tea.

15

Q.

Right.

16

A.

But you should drink it because its a sign of, Hey, were

17

working here.

18

me in the back when a firefight comes.

19

doing with those guys.

Were friends here.

Were not enemies.

Right?

Dont shoot

So thats what I was

20

Q.

Okay.

21

A.

PFC Coe, Joseph Coe, his family, they were missionaries

22

down in South America for years.

23

because, you know, he speaks Spanish.

E0190

I mean, he speaks their language

188

Q.

Thats not the guy from Brazil.

A.

No, thats Nascimento.

Q.

Okay.

A.

But so Coe understood what I was doing.

Hes from Brazil.

And he kind of, he

was going in the same direction that I was going.

If were going to

work with these people, youve got to meet them on the level of their

culture and get past that.

thats what everybody saw me doing.

So that was what I was doing there and

Did they help me?

No.

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

Did I have that level of communication with these guys?

12

Q.

Okay.

13

A.

I knew--like interacting with them socially is one thing.

11

No.

14

But did I trust them far enough to trust them with something like

15

this?

No.

16

Q.

Okay.

17

A.

They were Afghans.

18

Q.

Okay, okay.

19

A.

I knew enough of--I had a general gist of Afghan people and

20

I also saw--it gets really complicated but its like if you look at

21

their culture and you look at these people and how they live their

22

lives and then you put them and you take American Soldiers, which,

23

Im sorry, arent the best examples of America, and you put them in

E0191

189

front of these people as representatives as Americans, theyre going

to see--theyre not going to see the best side.

interpreters.

listening to all the conversations that are going on.

guys are going to be talking about what theyre talking about.

according to the Afghan culture, theyre extremely--theyre

different.

we dont think its disgusting.

youre talking about women as inanimate objects or something like

10

that.

Especially the

The interpreters riding in the truck, theyre

All right,
Okay,

So what we think is completely fine to talk about, well,

I find that disgusting.

I personally find it disgusting when

But I was raised in more----

11

Q.

Feminist, self-professed feminist.

12

A.

Yeah, self-professed feminist.

13

Q.

I understand.

14

A.

But you know, the typical Soldier has no problem with it.

15

So thats insulting to me.

Thats just conversation.

16

Q.

Right.

17

A.

So Im aware of what our actions are portraying to these

18

people.

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

All right.

And unfortunately the general perception is not

21

going to give them reason to feel warm fuzzy feelings for us.

22

time, Ill give you a good example.

E0192

One

Were heading out to the TCP and

190

we pass one of their trucks that hit an IED.

end.

Q.

An ANP truck?

A.

Yeah, it was an ANP truck.

It blew up the front

It was one of those little

Dodge----

Q.

Green pickups?

A.

Yeah, little green pickup trucks.

floor of the passenger seat was bubbled up.

there Im pretty sure lost his feet.

They hit an IED.

The

The guy who was sitting

Ironically, that was the one

10

guy who I was more familiar with so that kind of--he was the one guy

11

that I--if anyone was going to say, Well, that guy helped him,

12

well, he wasnt even there.

13

road and we see these guys standing off to the side.

14

just got blown up.

15

friend--friends who are supporting each other in a combat field

16

should have stopped, got out of their trucks, went up to them and

17

say, Hey, hows it going?

18

can we do?

19

support?

20

guy with the worst wounds to the hospital but a blast is going to get

21

your ears ringing, maybe your eyes,--you know, something.

22

have checked on them.

23

driving.

E0193

So here we are, were driving along this

Their truck

That guy got raced to the hospital.

Whats going on?

What do you need?

Do we need to get you guys somewhere?

Do we need

You know, have our medics check you all out.

But instead, what did we do?

Like, Ah, forget you people.

191

Now, a

We got that

We would

We just keep

We dont care.

Theyre

What

standing off to the side of the road in the middle of the desert

flatland in the middle of the blazing sun, stopping and giving them

water or something like that, would have been saying, Hey, were

working with you guys.

same thing.

works.

dont even care.

it, however, what Im doing is, if I was standing on the side of the

road and here comes the Americans in their extremely expensive,

Youre our friends.

Were supporting you.

You support us.

But instead, what do we do?

All right.

Were here doing the

Thats how it

We just keep driving like we

Now, you might say Im over thinking

10

extremely heavily armored, protective vehicles that just look really

11

cool.

12

lives for.

13

moment these guys leave, we stop blowing you up.

14

guys that were supposed to be supporting, here they come moving down

15

the road and they dont even care.

16

keep going.

17

little annoyed about the situation.

18

dont even matter.

19

dont even care.

20

stop killing your family members the moment you guys stop allying

21

with these guys.

22

the situation that when you have the Taliban saying, We stop killing

23

your family members the moment you start working for us, you dont

Here they come, these are the guys that were risking our

E0194

These are the guys that the Taliban keep telling us the
So these are the

They dont even stop.

They just

If I was standing on the side of the road, Id feel a

Id feel like were just--we

I dont even matter.

We just got blown up.

They

The Taliban over here is telling us, Oh, well

So Im aware of that situation.

192

Im also aware of

trust them.

You dont trust the interpreters.

In fact, I ended up

learning later that that was one of the main sources of information

for the Taliban were the interpreters sitting in those trucks,

listening to privates running their mouths about this or that and

then that information goes back to the Taliban.

Q.

How about the couple of interpreters that you had on the

COP with you?

A.

I didnt know them well.

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

I knew--like I had spent--I didnt converse with them to

Did you know them and did you know them well?

11

any full extent.

It was like, you know, because Im the person that

12

doesnt make a habit of talking to people.

13

Q.

Right.

14

A.

I spend more time listening to people.

Like my interaction

15

with the Afghan guys that didnt speak English was a visual action.

16

I didnt talk to them.

17

words like water, bread, whatever.

18

really cool.

19

words would be an intelligent thing to know.

20

because it shows that youre interested in----

You show interest in trying to write down

And theyre like, Oh, this is

This guy is trying to learn our language.

21

Q.

Making an effort.

22

A.

Yeah, youre making an effort.

23

interpreters?

E0195

Some

But it also looks good

Did I talk to the

No, I didnt talk to the interpreters.

193

Yes.

Q.

Right.

Different.

A.

Yeah, it was a different----

Q.

Okay.

Good.

Why did you pick--you had a very deliberate

plan.

or did it just happen to be a target of opportunity and you took

advantage of it or was it that particular morning or that evening

that you had planned on going?

particular time?

Was the actual day that you were departing part of your plan

A.

And if so, why did you choose that

I chose that particular time because that should have been

10

the last day that we were on the TCP, which meant that the third

11

platoon would have been prepared to come out.

12

Q.

Okay.

13

A.

So that meant when DUSTWUN was called out, those guys would

14

have already been ready to come out.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

And so there would have been that support.

There wouldnt

17

have been a lot of--everybody, it was the end of our turn out there.

18

Everybody is getting ready to leave.

19

Q.

Right.

20

A.

So everybody would have been already more or less packed or

21

more or less in the state of mind that would have been like, Hey,

22

Im going to leave now.

23

there, I wasnt saying this is when Im going to go.

E0196

So there was--basically, when we got out

194

I was looking

at the right time for the right moment.

My idea was the last day

because of those--because of that thought.

there was the thought of--there was the thought of guard shift.

But at the same time

Q.

Right.

A.

I needed that cushion.

Q.

Right.

A.

So the guard shift that night just happened to work out

just right that I had that cushion.

Other than that, I cant

remember what the other guard shifts had been like the nights before

10

but that was--that worked out that night.

11

last night.

12
13

Q.

The guard shift worked out.

Okay.

And it was second and third platoon.

A.

Yeah.

15

Q.

Youd swap each other out.

17

You guys just

kept going back every four days.

14

16

It should have been the

Why not wait until your next

rotation out there after third platoon came off?

A.

Because it was time sensitive in the fact that the shift

18

that Id kind of felt or that was kind of rumored or was going on

19

above us like our first sergeant was supposed to be shifting out and

20

we were supposed to be getting a new first sergeant.

21

Q.

E0197

Okay.

195

A.

From what I could see, things were starting--things were

shifting in the wrong direction at that point.

So the longer I

pushed it out, the more likely something could happen.

Q.

Okay.

A.

So instead of waiting, it was basically, you know, if I

waited another week, what if during that week we get sent out because

were QRF.

Q.

Right.

A.

We could get sent out to do anything.

10

CDC: Whats QRF?

11

A.

Quick Response Force.

12

Q.

Quick Reaction, yeah.

13

A.

What if something like Omna happened again?

14

What if

something else happened?

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

So it was time sensitive in the fact that here we are,

17

were on the TCP, we know were on the TCP, we know the routine here.

18

What can happen is theres an IED in the road--well, weve dealt with

19

that before and the guys so far havent put an IED big enough to do

20

much to an MRAP.

21

But the longer I pushed it out, the bigger the likelihood that things

22

would shift.

23

TCP was going to be handed over to somebody else.

E0198

So I knew that there was that much predictability.

And then there was the rumor, private rumor, that the

196

Q.

Okay.

And then remind again why not just rotate back to

Sharana later that day and then go find the general that you wanted

to talk to?

A.

Because what I believed from where I was standing was if I

just went to talk to the general, he wasnt going to listen to me.

If I just walked into his office as PFC Bergdahl and started talking

about so-and-sos not fit, so-and-so isnt--you need to investigate

this, you need to investigate this.

Hes going to laugh at me.

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

And say, You dont know what youre talking about.

11

a new private.

12

because you just got an Article 15.

13
14

Q.

Okay.

This is your first deployment.

Youre

Youre annoyed

Hes not going to listen to me.

Do you remember what your punishment was on the

Article 15?

15

A.

The Article 15 was something like misconduct or uniform----

16

Q.

Did they take your money or did they bust you from PFC to

18

A.

No, they didnt do anything like that.

19

Q.

Extra duty or?

20

A.

Nothing like that.

17

PV2?

21

This is your Article 15.

22

that was it.

23

Q.

E0199

They just----

It was just like, here, sign this.

Everybody sign it.

Okay.
197

You signed it and then

1
2
3
4

A.

We didnt get anything else.

The two sergeants got

demoted.
Q.

Okay.

So it was more like almost like a warning rather

than a direct punishment?

A.

Yeah, yeah.

Q.

Okay.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

I mean, it was clear you were being admonished for----

CDC: We havent seen the Article 15 form.

10
11

Q.

But an admonishment anyhow?

No, and I wouldnt because if its not a noncommissioned

officer they dont retain them in official records.

12

CDC: The local file.

13

Q.

Yeah, unless you have one we will probably never see it.

14

A.

No.

15

Q.

And then again, I understand why you wanted to talk to the

16

general.

17

just never get a credible audience with him and you explained a

18

number of leaders that you just--ones you were complaining about,

19

obviously they werent the ones you were going to go see.

But what

20

about Lieutenant Billings?

What about

21

your team leader?

22

talked about and you sort of glossed over those guys as potential

E0200

I understand why it had to be this way otherwise you would

What about your squad leader?

I mean, theres a bunch of leaders that we havent

198

open-door policy or--you understand the military well enough even as

a PFC after basic training----

[A]. Yeah.

[Q]. ----that theres a chain of command.

[A]. Yeah.

[Q]. So I do understand why you wouldnt have gone, based on

what you described, why you would have been uncomfortable going to

the battalion commander, the sergeant major, Duffy, some of these

other guys.

10
11

But what about Billings?

about Silvino?
[A]. Yeah.

What about Jimenez?

What

What about your squad leader, your team leader?

From what I could see was, well, my team leader,

12

which was Sergeant Buetow, we were back at Fort Rich one day and we

13

were in the dorms, or the barracks, sorry.

14

and one day he said, Where else could you have a job where you get

15

paid to do nothing all day?

16

barracks playing video games.

17

video games during NTC.

18

in charge of me.

19

He never checked my equipment.

20

He never did anything other than I made the effort from what I

21

remember it was me, I had to make the effort of going to him and

22

saying, Whats next?

23

saying, Im ready.

E0201

We were in the barracks

And he was sitting there in the

He was also the one who was playing

He was my team leader.

He was immediately

His approach was extremely lax, to say the least.

He never checked me on the way out.

I had to make the effort of going to him and

Ive got everything.
199

Hed make a very casual

just, you know, if you had to do something, hed rather--otherwise

hed rather be in his room playing video games or something like

that.

He didnt----

Q.

Okay.

A.

You know, he was a nice guy but as far as being an NCO in

the middle of a military combat field, you know, he wasnt somebody

that if I went to him and said, This is whats happening, hes

going to say, Thats just the way it is.

Keep your head down.

Youre a private.

Dont worry about it.

You know, I knew that was

10

going to be his advice.

If I went to him and said, We need to do

11

something about this, what I was suggesting is career threatening.

12

And from his comment back in the states, hes there for a paycheck.

13

Hes there because hes the cool guy, hes got the rank, hes got the

14

paycheck, dont rock the boat.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

Keep your head down.

17

Q.

Okay.

18

A.

And just play the game.

He didnt care.

My squad

19

sergeant, which was Sergeant Gerleve, the problem with Gerleve and

20

Buetow, also theres another thing.

21

Sharana, I was supposed to be on Gerleves squad but Gerleves squad

22

was somewhere else.

23

Q.

E0202

When I got to my unit at FOB

Right.
200

A.

And they were at a different FOB with a rotation.

Q.

Right.

A.

And so I wasnt with them.

I was under Sergeant Louiss

command.

Q.

When you very first arrived?

A.

When I very first arrived.

Q.

Yeah.

A.

So when they came back it was just within the week that

everything was happening.

So they werent really there.

They

10

werent really up to speed on anything.

So and Gerleve, hes not the

11

type of guy whos--hes the type of guy--he has a lot of talk.

12

Unfortunately, what sounds good, it doesnt convert into actions a

13

lot of time.

14

was, you know, he wanted to be the--he liked to talk the tough guy,

15

kind of the bad boy act or rebel act of not necessarily talking back

16

to command but--its hard to explain.

17

have any pull, literally.

18

paycheck.

So what I saw, the kind of character I saw from him

But he was talk.

He didnt

And he was also concerned--he also had a

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

And hes also the type of character that would say, Suck

21

it up.

22

for duty, hes gonna say, Thats not your job.

23

concern.

If I went to him and said, This is a problem, theyre unfit

E0203

Thats not your

Hes gonna listen to me and hes going to say, Okay, got

201

it.

Is he going to risk his career?

No.

Is he going to go to the

higher up?

to the platoon sergeant.

But whats going to happen?

one of my privates has issues with the BC.

with the BC?

Who is he to say that?

not gonna push it.

Yeah, he might go to the platoon sergeant and mention it

And he might go to Captain Silvino maybe.
Hes going to go there and say, Well,
Why does he have issues

Well, he says his conduct is not fitting for a BC.

Hes a private.

Its not going to--hes

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

Hes not going to go demanding action.

If he brings it up

11

at all, hes just going to say he has some issues, but dont worry

12

about it, Ive already cleared it away.

13

away was telling me, Suck it up.

And the way he cleared it

Thats not your lane.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

And then after him would have been Sergeant Duffy, Sergeant

16

Hine, platoon sergeant.

17

Q.

Right.

18

A.

After them would have been first sergeant.

First sergeant,

19

I got the impression he just didnt care.

20

deployment.

21

to risk his career on a last deployment to rock, causing upheaval.

22

Hes the type that hes a very laid back kind of guy.

23

Q.

E0204

He was there for a paycheck.

This is Jimenez, right?

202

That was his last

Hes not the type of guy

A.

Yeah, this is Jimenez, First Sergeant Jimenez.

One of the

things, when we were in NTC hed always ask guys, Who has

handwriting like a girl?

clearly.

because apparently his handwriting wasnt good enough or apparently,

I dont know what was going on.

people do this for him and I was like, Why, because maybe you dont

have enough time or maybe you just dont have good enough handwriting

that you needed to hand somebody a list and make sure that it was

Because he wanted someone who could write

Because he needed someone to write out a list for him

But he was always having other

10

completely clear?

I dont know.

But he didnt strike me, you know,

11

he didnt strike me as a very active person.

12

person.

13

recognition and saying, Hows it going?

He wasnt a hands on

He wasnt in the platoon making sure everybody--getting face

14

Q.

Yeah.

15

A.

He was very laid back.

And Id go to him and say, So-and-

16

sos out of--you know, hes going to tell me the same thing.

Hes

17

going to say, Thats understood, but, you know, in that accent that

18

he has, but hes going to say, Its not my job.

19

problem.

Its not my

And the other problem was he was being replaced.

20

Q.

Okay.

21

A.

The words that we heard was that he was being replaced.

22

either it was a voluntary thing that he was saying, Im washing my

23

hands of this unit and Im out of here.

E0205

203

So

Q.

Right.

A.

Or it was the BC saying, All right, Im replacing you and

youre out of here, which means hes already in disfavor, which

means if he started doing something, hes really risking his career

and this is his last deployment.

should he risk losing face or losing rank or losing anything on his

last deployment for a private whos saying something thats far above

his head?

Why should he risk his career?

Why

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

Captain Silvino, out of all of them, you know--okay, first

11

thered be Lieutenant Billings as officers.

12

hes a Ranger RI.

13

going to say, Yeah, its messed up.

14

going to be his solution.

15

to say, Yeah, its messed up.

16

get past that?

17

Youre going to have that.

18

probably go through the whole situation of saying, You know what?

19

Were already stressed for people.

20

start replacing higher commanding officers in the middle of a

21

battlefield in the middle of a tour just because some private has

22

some scruples with how hes doing things.

23

Q.

E0206

Lieutenant Billings,

I go to him, I say, I got problems with--hes

Suck it up.

Drive on.

Thats the type of guy he is.

Thats the regular Army.

Go Ranger or go SF.

Thats

Hes going
You want to

But this is the regular Army.

Nothing you can do about it.

Hell

Higher command isnt going to

Okay.
204

A.

So that was my perspective.

I was looking at him, I was

going--hes not going to go to the general and say, Hey, general, I

have a private here that says that this battalion commander is not

fit for duty.

Its ridiculous.

Q.

Okay.

A.

Youre going to laugh at me.

Q.

Mm-hm.

A.

You know, and the same was for Captain Silvino.

to Captain Silvino, he would listen to me.

If I went

He was, probably out of

10

all these people, he would have been the clear-minded guy that would

11

have listened to me and he wouldnt have laughed it off.

12

would have told me the same thing.

13

investigation and putting the BC, the sergeant major under

14

psychological analysis, under investigation, hes going to say,

15

Were not doing that.

16

the general and I suggest this, you know, they might ask some

17

questions but what theyre probably going to do is theyre going to--

18

the general is going to call up the BC and say, Whats going on?

19

And the BC is going to have his whole spiel of, Well, Im in the

20

right.

This guys a private.

21

about.

Lets see some proof, or whatever.

22

like a dead end, you know?

E0207

However, he

The prospect of launching an

Theyre not going to do that.

If I go to

I dont know what theyre talking

You can see that it was

Nobody was going to take this newbie

205

private first class, first tour, just got in the Army, no ones going

to listen to this guy.

Q.

Right.

A.

Over a BC, over a captain, over a first sergeant or

sergeant major.

Alls its gonna take to put the general off is the

sergeant major saying, Oh, yeah, this guy that got the Article 15.

Or Oh, hes just a private.

under control.

Q.

Dont worry about him.

Everythings

Were adjusting to make up for whats going on.

Okay.

It begs the follow-up question, which is how could

10

you arrive at such a strong conclusion, you know, after only five

11

weeks in country?

12

A.

Yeah.

13

Q.

Because you got there like around the 11th of May.

14

A.

Yeah.

15

Q.

And by 30 June youve decided the only way for me to fix

16

this is to get to a general and the only for me to get to a general

17

is DUSTWUN.

I mean, thats very, very bold.

18

A.

Yeah.

19

Q.

I mean, you have to admit, thats a very, very bold move,

20

which requires a tremendous amount of conviction and it begs the

21

question, I mean, youve asked it so Im now just asking it back to

22

you.

23

matter that youre a private.

How do you arrive there in just five weeks?

E0208

And it doesnt

I mean, that does sort of compound it

206

a little bit, but whether youre a private or a lieutenant colonel or

a general or a sergeant major, I mean, five weeks is not a great deal

of time, particularly given as much movement--you know, you werent

really anywhere for five weeks.

mean, its a fair question and I just want to give you an opportunity

to expound on that.

You were constantly moving.

A.

So the judgment was based on interactions before.

Q.

Right, okay.

A.

I got--personality checks were started back at NTC.

So I

NTC.

10

Meeting the first sergeant, meeting the sergeant major, meeting the

11

BC, seeing them, watching them, listening to all the information

12

thats going down, thats coming from every which way.

13

up to their, you could call my understanding of their character, my

14

feelings of their character, had started prior to that and it built

15

up.

16

just kept getting filed away, another one, another one, another one,

17

another one.

18

all, what I saw was just that it was that file of----

And basically it just kept--all the things that kept happening

So when it got to that point, and I look back on it

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

----heres their reputation.

21
22

So the build

Heres the repetitive habit.

Heres what their character has continuously done.

Q.

E0209

Okay.

207

A.

NTC, I saw the first sergeant, he was a very laid back guy.

He never was hands on.

floating there.

NTC.

He never was--you know, he was just kind of

Sergeant major, you know, he showed his character at

CDC: It sounds like the cumulative effect.

Q.

Yeah, so it wasnt five weeks.

joined in Alaska?

A.

Yeah.

Q.

Through, you know----

10

A.

Oh, yeah, all the way up.

11

CDC: Keep going.

12

I/O: Okay,

13

CDC: Ill be right back.

14
15
16

It was from when you first

Im going to hit the head for a second.

[The civilian defense counsel exited the room.]

Q.

Tell me about the email you sent home.

It was in the newspapers.

I think it was----

17

A.

Rolling Stone likes to quote it.

18

Q.

Well, I dont know.

19

I havent seen it.

That one?

This is the one where I think you were

writing to your dad?

20

A.

Its the last----

21

Q.

But you said--no, it was about the NCOs.

One of the NCOs

22

was telling you, telling all the privates to get out and the other

23

one was an ass-kisser.

E0210

208

A.

Yeah, yeah.

Q.

Or you didnt use those words but it was something like

A.

Yeah, that was----

Q.

Okay, who were those guys?

that.

Who was the ass-kisser?

Who

was the guy who was telling you to get out or can you put names and

faces to those?

8
9

A.

The guys who were telling us to get out.

It was more of a

general feeling.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

Youve met Sergeant Vierkant?

12

Q.

Yeah, we talked on the phone.

13

A.

Sergeant Vierkant and there was Sergeant Sauer, whos

14

probably Special Forces by now.

15
16

Q.

19
20

He is.

Sergeant Sauer is a Staff Sergeant in Special

Forces down in Colombia.

17
18

I talked to him on the phone.

A.

Yeah, so that was the guy I was supposed to go to Q-course

Q.

Right, yeah.

with.
He was the only guy I think who had a Ranger

tab in the platoon, right?

21

A.

Yep.

22

Q.

Yeah, yeah.

23

I didnt meet him.

And hes the one that they kept pushing up on

the OP after the problem with Sean Smith.

E0211

209

A.

Yep.

Q.

Yeah, so I spoke to him on the phone for a while.

A.

So Sergeant Sauer, he was getting out in the sense he was

going Special Forces.

Q.

Oh, I see.

Okay, okay.

A.

Then there was--Sergeant Vierkant and there was Sergeant

Schule, I forget what he was doing.

But the general feeling was like

Sergeant Louis, its spelled Louis but its more Louis.

Lewises in our platoon.

Theres two

10

Q.

Right, one was a specialist or a PFC.

11

A.

Right, it was Lewis and then one was a sergeant and he was

12

Louis.

13

Q.

Yeah, we havent talked to that sergeant.

14

A.

Yeah, hes the guy that if its in the pictures that were

15

posted by the Guardian, he had the doo-rag on.

He was a bit of a--he

16

knew the regulations.

17

wants to do--you know, he wants to push a little on the confines.

He was a bit of a rebel in the sense that he

18

Q.

Yeah.

19

A.

But he knew what he was doing.

He knew the 240.

20

the gun systems.

21

little details, he liked to kind of push back because, you know,

22

were Americans, were rebels, you know, bad boys, whatever.

23

[The civilian defense counsel reentered the room.]

E0212

He knew what he was doing.

He knew

210

So on those stupid

A.

But basically, these sergeants, the general theme, the

general feeling was these guys are getting out.

Theyre basically

saying because were pulling up all these--Corporal Gaughan, whos

going to be sergeant soon because hes kissing the ass of Sergeant

Hine and Sergeant Duffy and Sergeant Komes is in cahoots with it.

Sergeant Gerleve, you know, hes playing the game too.

basically, Im trying to, in my letter to my dad, which you

understand was a private letter to a private person so I didnt have

to explain myself in intimate detail as if Im in front of a jury,

So it was

10

right?

So what I was trying to do was trying to compress everything

11

into a general feeling of this.

12

getting out, literally.

13

deployment.

14

nothing stopping him.

15

course.

16

But Sergeant Louis was getting out and it was his last deployment.

17

Sergeant Leatherman, that was the other one.

18

was making a career out of it, very cocky guy.

19

about things.

20

to shove, he knew what he was talking about.

Thats why I said good sergeants are

Sergeant Vierkant, this was his last

Sergeant Sauer, he was going Special Forces.

There was

And I knew he was going to finish the Q-

And Sergeant Schule, I dont know what he was trying to do.

Sergeant Leatherman, he
He has a lot to say

But he knew what he was talking about.

When push came

21

Q.

Okay.

22

A.

He had some issues of people would call him a know-it-all,

23

but, you know, who isnt?

E0213

Especially when theyre trying to prove-211

in that environment when youve got a bunch of guys together, theyre

always trying to one-up each other.

theme was yeah, things are messed up in the platoon right now.

from my perspective, I was looking at the platoon and then I made the

general assumption that if its going on here, its not an isolated

situation.

senior drill sergeant was the best drill sergeant on Sand Hill in my

eyes, Id say probably at least a quarter of the guys that graduated

basic training should not have graduated basic training.

10

So these guys were--the general

And

And the other problem was that despite the fact that my

Because

theyre the type of--you know, one guy--a couple of guys, they----

11

Q.

Even in Sergeant Oliveras unit?

12

A.

Yeah.

You just saw this element of people that shouldnt

13

be there.

Theres one guy, we got towards the end of basic training,

14

you get the time you get to go off--its like you go out in Class Bs,

15

and its like you have your cross-rifles and youve made it to that

16

end, you get your cross-rifles, you get to go off and have a night

17

out.

18

Q.

Ive seen a picture of you down in Columbus or somewhere.

19

CDC: Guarding [inaudible] [laughing].

20

A.

So we get the safety brief.

21

do something stupid.

22

alcohol and get drunk.

23

they come back to Benning, to Sand Hill, with beer cans of beer and

E0214

All right?

Okay, guys, dont go out and

And dont drink.

Its going to be a problem.

212

Dont go get
So these guys,

they throw the beer cans away in the laundry room in our building, at

our building.

throughout boot camp and theyre doing everything they can to weasel

their way through this or that.

always, whenever it came to a detail, would always disappear

magically.

respect for what they were doing there.

paycheck.

the day that dental fixed his chipped tooth, the other guys heard him

And then theres the other guys who were selling dip

There were other guys who would

There were these guys who just didnt care.

They had no

They were there for a

One guy, who was a rapper, he had a chipped tooth.

And

10

saying, Well, I got what I wanted out of the Army.

And he was

11

just--he was Effinger.

12

Alaska too.

13

Army.

14

all the platoons in basic training.

15

these guys or that guy or this guy and what they were doing.

16

drill sergeant knew about it.

17

The company captain knew about it.

18

what I was doing when I was at my unit, I was seeing the actual

19

effect of what happens when you let these people into a unit.

20

then I was simply using my imagination to say, Well, all those guys

21

in my basic training, they went somewhere.

22

company in basic training, then they were in every company in basic

23

training.

And in fact, he was actually--he went to

It was just these people that shouldnt have been in the

So I saw this element and it wasnt just my platoon.

E0215

It was

Everybody had this story of

The

The drill sergeants knew about it.

But they still graduated.

213

So

And

And if they were in my

CDC: My heads going to explode.

I/O: [Laughing]

CDC: No, no, no.

I/O: Sure, sure.

CDC: Arent you setting the bar a little high for the U.S. Army?

I/O: [Laughing]

CDC: No, Im not pulling your leg.

8
9

I want to ask a question if you dont mind.

How many people does the

recruiting command have to bring in every month.

I/O: Hes laughing, too.

Of course, hes setting the bar

10

extremely high.

11

SBJ: Yeah.

12

I/O: Completely unrealistically high.

But thats consistent

13

with what Ive learned about Bowe Bergdahl from family, friends and--

14

you know, on the realist to idealist spectrum, hes not on the

15

realist extreme to say the least.

16

question yourself.

17

my laughing.

18

terrific question.

So I will let you answer the

And forgive me, again, dont take any offense to

Its not intended to be offensive.

Its just a

19

CDC: Im just sitting here listening, you know.

20

I/O: Whats funny about it is hes the one whos asking it,

21
22

thats whats funny about it.

Go ahead.

CDC: Were not even going to start on the Coast Guard.

E0216

214

1
2
3

Q.

Tell us, you know, what you think about your own standard

that youre setting.

A.

Yeah, there were plenty of guys in basic training that--

yes, my standard was high.

If it was so high that it wouldnt

include these guys, the guys who could barely pass physical fitness

or the guys who just mentally were not going to be able to deal with

the pressures of being away from home, in a different country, being

shot at.

was just saying, if I was actually looking at things realistically,

So if I was--if you think my level was too high from what I

10

instead of saying maybe a quarter of the guys that were in my platoon

11

or in my platoon, yeah, shouldnt have graduated, realistically, I

12

should be saying half the guys in my platoon shouldnt have

13

graduated.

14

Q.

Right.

15

A.

Because theyre not Soldier material.

16

Q.

Right.

17

A.

However, I understand that just because that guy cant pass

18

the PT or barely passes the PT test or just because that guys a

19

video gamer and he just wants to be there because he wants to do

20

something real with his life, doesnt mean hes going to be a bad

21

Soldier.

22

graduated are the guys who have blatantly showed that they have no

23

respect for the Army, what it stands for, what the command is, and

E0217

I understand that.

The type of guys that shouldnt have

215

what were supposed to stand--what we as Soldiers are supposed to

represent.

that they needed to brownnose, backstabbed the guys they needed to

backstab and manipulated the system to every degree that they could,

those guys shouldnt have graduated.

and you put them out in the Army, youre going to see what I saw and

that is you put a rank on them and suddenly theyre going to start--

they even have more power to manipulate.

telling these people to go do this or these people to go do that.

Those guys who ditched their details, brownnosed the guys

Because if you take those guys

They can suddenly start

So

10

all right, my standards are high, however, this is a military unit.

11

Were dealing with life and death situations.

12

environment where if you are not structured, if you do not have that

13

discipline, if you do not have the belief in what you are doing, if

14

you dont have the belief in this uniform youre wearing, if youre

15

just there for a paycheck or youre just there so you can be cool or

16

if youre just there so you can play video games and say, Man, this

17

is so cool, we get paid to do nothing all day, whats that going to

18

translate to when we get into a situation where men are dying and the

19

only way that we can get out of that situation with minimal

20

casualties is by pressing forward and doing what the infantry is

21

supposed to do and close with fire superiority.

22

Q.

E0218

Sure.

216

Were dealing with an

A.

And get the job done.

Yes, were not the Rangers.

Yes, as

our unit we have guys like Howard, we have guys like Lanford, we have

guys that I met in snowball--or snow, I call them snowballs, like

snow platoon.

were not a Ranger unit.

We have those guys, yes.

Theyre not Spartans.

But

Q.

Right.

A.

So my standards, yes, my standards are high to the sense

that I dont accept that we should be allowing the people who

blatantly show that they dont want to be there for any other reason

10

for paycheck or to look cool.

11

Q.

Okay.

12

A.

Im fully accepting the fact that if these standards are

13

too high that someone like Howard or somebody like Good or somebody

14

like Hole cant make it or isnt up to par.

15

They do what theyre supposed to do.

16

supposed to try.

17

supporting their country.

18

individuals, as persons can do to represent their country.

19

there for a good reason and they have heart behind it and they have

20

that thought behind it that this is more than just a paycheck.

21

is more than just another job.

22

This is something, this is what it is.

23

Q.

E0219

Then, doesnt matter.

They try as hard as theyre

They believe in what theyre doing.

Theyre

Theyre doing their best as them as

Theyre

This

This is more than just looking cool.

I understand.
217

A.

So yeah, I set the bar high and I talk about it high.

its up there for a reason.

should be there.

You can adjust it to the people who

Q.

Right.

A.

But you should keep it up there so that the people that

But

shouldnt be there arent allowed to be there.

Q.

Okay.

So just so your head doesnt split.

CDC: Explode was the term.

Q.

Explode, sorry.

So your head doesnt explode.

I mean, the

10

other side of this, and Sergeant Bergdahl or PFC Bergdahl wouldnt

11

know this, but it is a fact in the United States of America that of

12

the 17-24 year olds across the whole United States of all 300-

13

whatever million people, in the 17-24 year old population, of which

14

you were a member at the time, 28 percent, only 28 percent are fully

15

qualified to join the Army at all.

16

need to get up and walk out even before the recruiter walks in.

17

Because theyve got a psychological problem, theyve got a medical

18

problem, they havent graduated from high school or have an

19

equivalent, theyre on psychotropic drugs, theyve got a criminal

20

record, you know, you name it,

21

So if you take 100 of them, 72

72 percent of America.

CDC: Off the top.

E0220

218

Q.

Off the top.

So the 28% that youre applying a very, very

high standard to is already sort of the cream of the crop of that

peer group.

Its just the way it is.

A.

Wow.

Q.

But I think you did a--what you did was you separated those

who may not be the most fit, but theyre motivated to learn and to

try and to serve and they can be trained and they can improve and

they can reach toward that goal, whether they reach it or not and

then the ones who may be more fit, may be more capable but dont give

10

a damn, you know.

And thats--is that what youre----

11

A.

12

CDC: Ill intrude with sort of a philosophical comment and then

13

Yeah, thats exactly my [inaudible].

Ill--I dont want to waste time.

14

I/O: Yeah, okay,

15

CDC: But youre talking about two things.

Youre talking about

16

accessions and youre talking about weeding after the point of

17

enlistment.

18

I/O: Yeah, yeah.

19

CDC: To me, if I were the chief of human resources, I would be

20

thinking about how many of the kind of factors that youre talking

21

about can be identified at the front end.

22

know, jail or the Army.

23

lot of them cannot be identified.

E0221

Some of them can.

That we can identify.

Thats fine.

You
But a

So all you can do--hold on, wait,

219

wait, wait.

All you can do--yeah, you could give everybody fancy

Myers-Briggs--just let me finish my paragraph.

least ensure that people understand coming in, and since we have an

all volunteer force now.

I/O: Sure.

CDC: What theyre getting in for.

All you can do is at

And then the second thing is,

post-enlistment, a constant broadcasting of what Army Values entail

and then a willingness to fire people.

I/O: Yeah, hold them accountable.

10
11

CDC: Yeah, but you can do a footnote to what I just said but I
just wanted to give my capsule on that.

12

I/O: Yeah, we need to give him a break from talking anyhow.

13

CDC: Ive taken my break, by the way.

14

So if you all want to

take one now, Im good.

15

Q.

Are you okay?

16

A.

Im good.

17

Q.

Youre good?

18

CDC: And, by the way, the hardest job in any branch of the

19
20

Do you want to hit the head or are you good?

All right.

So let me ask you----

service is recruiting.
I/O: Yeah, sure, absolutely.

And Ive been asked--you know,

21

people say, Hey, general, you have a recruiting problem.

22

dont have a recruiting problem.

23

And our recruiters are very good.

E0222

Its not my Army.

I say, I

Its your Army.

The problem is the recruiters are

220

recruiting from 28% of the population.

we do about this?

worse.

to be done in America to improve this population of youth and get

after all those categories of disqualifiers.

national problems, not military recruiting problems.

I dont know.

But if it becomes 25%, thats

If it becomes 35%, thats better.

CDC: I think thats a fair point.

Q.

And they say, Well, what do

So you, do whatever needs

Because theyre really

Okay, so Sergeant Bergdahl, let me ask you.

We talked a

minute ago about it wasnt just five weeks, it was a continual--an

10

accumulation of things.

11

was giving credit for saying that you said when you guys were back on

12

Rear Detachment that, If this deployments lame, Im just walking

13

off the FOB.

14

him again.

15

Stone.

16

And he said--I said, Well, why would he say that?

17

description to me was that you guys were getting, because you were

18

back on Rear D, not a lot to do probably, you were frustrated because

19

you wanted to hurry up and get over there.

20

in the first place and an ankle problem held you up.

21

We talked to--youve seen the quote that Fry

He said that in his original statement.

We spoke to

He says now that is an accurate statement in Rolling

He says thats exactly what PFC Bergdahl told me at the time.

A.

E0223

Yeah.

221

And his

Its why you were there

Q.

So youre already frustrated.

And then the news youre

getting back from the guys is not what you were envisioning when you

were going forward.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

So just comment on that for me.

Tell me your version of

all that.

Because its your version that matters, not Frys version.

And let me say the reason Im asking the question is again Im trying

to form--Im trying to understand when youre formulating this plan.

A.

Yeah.

10

Q.

I mean, I know you described to me when you decided to act

11

on it.

But Im trying to--just how early were you realizing, You

12

know what?

13

hands here?

14

A.

It looks like I might have to take matters in my own

Im trying to remember.

A lot of the conversations I had

15

with Fry--because Fry was, I have to say, a typical, young, American

16

boy.

17

the military was more of a Hollywood perception than anything else.

18

Like he liked to watch war movies.

19

we had had with each other, and Im pretty sure this is what kind of

20

led up to this initial conversation is talking about modern Soldiers

21

versus other Soldiers.

22

In other words, his influence of the world or his perception of

Q.

E0224

And one of the conversations that

Okay.

222

A.

And what my idea was, because he was watching this war

movie and I could kind of see that this was what he wanted to be.

You know, hes from the south so he has that whole Civil War kind of

heritage going on like he does the whole reenactment thing.

Q.

Okay.

A.

So he kind of has this kind of Hollywood dream in his head

and I kind of see that going on.

Q.

Okay.

A.

And he was watching a movie on I think World War II, I

10

believe.

11

reality of the situation is those are real Soldiers, in the sense of

12

the word.

13

know, International Security Assistance Force.

Thats police.

14

you look at what the guys on D-Day were doing.

If you look at what

15

the guys over in the Pacific Ocean were doing in Australia and all

16

those islands and you look at what they had to deal with every single

17

day of their lives, the trenches, the swamps, the jungles.

18

at what those guys had to deal with compared to what we have to deal

19

with now, on the scale of how many enemies they were dealing with at

20

how aggressive the combat situation was, those guys, in the

21

definition of Soldier, those guys were Soldiers.

22

cant take that away.

23

but if you call us modern day Soldiers, you would have to say modern

E0225

And I pointed at those Soldiers and I said, Fry, the

What we are now are police officers, literally.

All right?

You
If

You look

You

And its almost insulting--its not insulting

223

day Soldiers.

Because if you called us Soldiers, that kind of puts

you on the same level as these guys.

beach landings, you read the accounts of the city to city sweeps, the

trenches, you read all these accounts, the naval ships being hit by

submarines or the naval ships being hit by kamikazes, you read about

these accounts and you see what these people had to survive, you read

about Vietnam and Ive heard too many guys who were Vietnam vets.

One guy, I know, when he got back he never said a single thing to his

family except for the fact that, We lived like dogs.

You read the accounts of the

That was all

10

he said and he never said anything else.

So you read about the

11

accounts of what these guys went through in Vietnam and then you look

12

at how things progressed, through Desert Storm, and how things

13

slowly--like, that generation was disappearing.

14

there in the full conflict, full frontal battles dealing with that

15

and then dealing with Vietnam and then slowly moving forward.

16

then you read the accounts of 2002, Iraq, Afghanistan.

17

about the contacts that were being taken.

18

dying, yes.

19

in World War II.

20

deal with the amount of pressure and the amount of horror that the

21

guys back in the World Wars or in Vietnam had to deal with.

22

trying to convey to Fry that this isnt the Hollywood-portrayed

23

movie.

Those guys who were

And

You read

All right, Soldiers are

But theyre not dying on the scale that they were dying
And theyre not having--Soldiers arent having to

So I was

Were not--were modern day adaptations to a battlefield that

E0226

224

has fully changed.

And this battlefield is now, one, its a guerilla

warfare and two, its a police operation.

military--if we were sent to Afghanistan as a military unit to do the

job of a Soldier, that would have been take the country.

have been enforce things by military force.

doing.

worried about--we were supposed to be more worried about civilian

casualties.

supposed to be doing aid.

If we were sent here as a

That would

Thats not what were

We got here and were using soft tactics.

We were more

Were supposed to be training these guys.

This isnt Soldiers.

Were

We get to Bagram and

10

one of the first things theyre telling us is youre not supposed to-

11

-the way youre supposed to search people.

12

youre searching somebody that you expect to kill you.

13

is youre asking him to put your arms up and you kind of do a little

14

pat down.

15

and I was trying to get this into his head because he had a very

16

glamorized idea.

Its not the way that

Alls it is,

So it was kind of like the reality of the situation is,

17

Q.

Okay.

18

A.

And so the conversation shifted from talking about the

19

reality of the situation and the battlefields and how things have

20

changed and trying to compare what were doing now as to what those

21

guys were doing.

22

calling us police officers would be a closer description than calling

23

us Soldiers if Soldiers were what the definition of those guys were

E0227

All right, its not the same thing.

225

You know,

and what they were dealing with.

Yes, were still Soldiers but were

modern Soldiers in a modern combat zone using modern tactics.

Q.

Sure.

A.

Because it changed.

CDC: But what about General Dahls question?

A.

CDC: Okay.

A.

Yeah, were getting to that.

Because its a very complex thing.

up to basically Fry, he was listening to me.

So the conversation led

And from what Ive

10

learned over my time, if you need to gauge somebodys character of

11

what theyre going to do or how theyre going to react to something

12

or how their mind is going to process something, you dont ask a

13

question but you make a statement and you make a statement that

14

causes a reaction.

15

conversation.

16

lines of if deployment is lame--now, I was still back on Rear D, and

17

I was hearing some basic ideas of whats going on there, but I didnt

18

have eyes on it.

All right?

Now, I cant recall that exact

But the statement would be, you know, like along the

19

Q.

Right.

20

A.

So the question was, whats going to happen?

21

going to do?

22

myself all the way up to that point as being very--because everybody

23

knew I wanted to go Special Forces, right?

E0228

How am I going to react to this?

226

What am I

Because I portrayed

Q.

Right.

A.

And I was a little annoyed about the fact that once I got

to my unit and I saw how things were going and I saw how NTC was

going, I was like, good grief, Im going to have to do a deployment

before I go to the Q-course, and then when I was on Rear D, I was

hearing about all this stuff that was going on and it was like, Im

going to waste my time doing a year deployment dealing with all this

bullshit when I wanted to go--at that point it was like, I should

just go straight to Special Forces because thats what I want and I

10

know thats where I should be.

Because it cuts out all this

11

stupidity.

12

this deployment instead of going directly to the Q-course because I

13

couldnt go to the Q-course because they wouldnt let me go to the Q-

14

course because they were already short manned.

15

enough men to fill in all the positions.

16

need a commanders, you know, sign off to allow me to go to the Q-

17

course.

And I also needed to have a Specialist rank to go to the Q-

18

course.

So I was annoyed about that.

19

go Special Forces.

20

correctly, the conversation was in the direction of he was asking me

21

like what I was going to do.

22

thinking because of his glamorized idea of going over to a combat

23

zone.

So it was like, okay, so Im going to go waste my time in

So it was like, okay, I

But everybody knew I wanted to

So the conversation, if I can remember it

And I wanted to know what he was

So I was asking him questions.

E0229

They dont have

227

And the question was--the

statement--I dont even think that was my exact words, If

deployments lame, Im just going to leave.

my exact words, but I cant remember my exact words.

remember the exact conversation either.

I dont think that was

I cant

CDC: Well, if you cant remember, you cant remember.

Q.

If you cant remember, you cant remember.

I mean, his

recollection--his original statement and then of course it was in one

of the newspaper articles.

You know, he said--I said, Was that statement--he said, That

And then when we spoke to him recently.

10

statement was not taken out of context.

11

Thats an accurate quote from him.

12

say that?

13

later.

Thats exactly what he said.

And I said, Well, why did he

And he said, his recollection, now this is five years

14

A.

Yeah.

15

Q.

His recollection was that it was in response to the

16

Facebook messages that you guys were getting from the platoon

17

downrange who were talking about what they were doing, the way the

18

deployment had been going so far for the last couple of months and

19

that you guys were sort of disappointed in the accounts that you were

20

getting.

21

A.

Yeah.

22

Q.

And what they were doing.

23

little disappointing, frustrating.

E0230

You were thinking thats a

Were waiting to get over there,
228

waiting to get over there, and when we get over there, thats what

its going to be like and thats how he recalls how you responded.

CDC: Well, Ill just----

A.

Well, I was just going to say that I think the gist of the

whole, from what I can remember, was basically I could get over to--

once I got over there, I could do--my idea was to force some kind of

a separation from the unit, basically me going to the platoon

sergeant and saying, I need to be changed to a different----

Q.

Switch to a different unit?

10

A.

Switch to a different unit.

11

CDC: You were gung-ho.

12

A.

Because----

Special Forces, that was your goal.

Yeah, so I just needed the rank.

I just needed a certain

13

amount of time in country to get the rank and I didnt want to waste

14

my time in a regular unit that was just playing gate guard, which is

15

what we were getting.

16

else.

When I could be somewhere else doing something

17

Q.

Sure, okay.

18

A.

So the idea was to start pushing for some kind of a change

19

of unit or something like that.

20

you could do that.

Because I had heard somewhere that

21

Q.

Okay.

22

A.

You could ask for a change.

23

conversation.

E0231

229

I dont remember the exact

Q.

Thats fair.

Thats fair enough.

CDC: Is there some document that memorializes your interest in

going into Special Forces or is that undisputed?

just went through the AR 15-6.

Q.

I dont know.

I dont recall.

We

I mean, everyone who knows Sergeant Bergdahl

knows that thats what he wanted to do.

I think you even mentioned

it to your recruiter when you first tried to enlist?

A.

Yeah, I did.

Q.

You wanted to go into Special Forces.

And he, by the way,

10

your recruiter at MEPS and the ways he remembers you, he remembers

11

you asked him a question about conscientious objection when you were

12

talking to a recruiter.

13

A.

Yeah.

14

Q.

He says I remember him because Ive never had anybody come

15

into a recruiting station and ask me about conscientious objection

16

before.

17

A.

Yeah.

18

Q.

Do you remember that conversation?

19

A.

I dont remember that conversation.

20

I had a lot of

questions for him.

21

Q.

Okay, okay, okay.

22

A.

And even to this day, my idea and my understanding and my

23

personal views on conscientious objectors is in the modern

E0232

230

battlefield when things have gotten so political, Soldiers, people

shouldnt just be throwing their lives away like we did in World War

II.

the battlefield, dont put them in the battlefield because theyre

not going to want to be there.

there, then they are going to cause some kind of a problem.

going to cause the team--they are going to slow the team up.

are going to slow the--you know, they are going to make a weakness

basically.

If you literally, if you have somebody who objects to being in

And if they dont want to be

They are
They

So, my views on conscientious objection is, yes, allow

10

that to be there.

Because if you give a person that ability to say,

11

You know what, I cant do this and I am not going to be reprimanded

12

for it, then what you do is you give that relief valve of removing

13

from forward line all the people who dont want to be there.

14

CDC: That is a more complicated subject.

15

Q.

So, let me--lets switch gears.

16

A.

Yeah.

17

CDC: One--the tiniest footnotes.

Just again, listening to what

18

you are saying here, military--this is about the only legal kind of

19

comment that I think I will have made today.

20

recognizes something called bravado; that there are statements that

21

people make that are bravado.

Typically it is called mere bravado.

22

I/O: Right.

23

CDC: That is what I am hearing----

E0233

But, military law

231

I/O: Yeah.

CDC: ----in this comment.

I/O: And a lot of people refer to it as----

CDC: Hollow threats.

I/O: Well, you know, guard tower talk.

CDC: Okay.

Q.

10

Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

So, lets switch gears and lets go back to where we

were an hour or so ago.

And that is, there is a gap that you have

not had an opportunity to cover.

11

A.

Right.

12

Q.

Motorcycle guys to 9 July.

13

A.

Mullah Sangeen.

14

Q.

----Mullah Sangeen.

15

A.

I dont know.

16
17

You know, whatever and

all that kind of stuff.

Sure.

Or motorcycle guys to----

And if that is around 9 July or so----

I dont know because at that point I just

lost all time.

Q.

Lets just call it the gap.

Without dates, lets call it

18

the gap from motorcycle guys show up and are surprised to find a

19

white dude out there, and where you started with the debrief.

20

fill that in for me.

21

A.

22

CDC: The rolling thunder guys.

23

I/O: Yeah.

E0234

It is pretty simple actually.

232

So,

A.

Immediate understanding at that point in time, that one, I

cant do anything.

Two, I am in over my head.

And three, it is, you

know, basically at that point in time, it is survival mode.

hands of God.

werent sure I was a Soldier, but then they saw my uniform.

They basically--they saw--they figured it out.

Q.

Okay.

A.

And I had my wallet on me and dog tags.

Q.

Did they have weapons?

A.

Yeah, they had weapons.

AK-47s.

They

How old were they?

They were about barely early mid-

10

20s.

11

rifle that was probably a 7.62 by 41.

One had a--they all had AK-47s.

One had a longer

12

Q.

Okay.

13

A.

Instead of a 7.62 by 30.

14

Q.

So, these werent just local villagers.

15

In the

These were

Taliban.

16

A.

Yeah, these were Taliban.

17

Q.

How many of them were there?

18

A.

Six when--like, the first drivers.

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

Well, there was five motorcycles, but sometimes they have

21

So, like three motorcycles----

like----

22

Q.

A couple----

23

A.

----a couple guys on the back.

E0235

233

Q.

Okay. So, five motorcycles and about six Taliban?

A.

Yeah.

Q.

Okay.

A.

Flat out country.

it out.

with one of the scarves, put me on the back of a motorcycle and they

start driving.

and get the blindfold off of my eyes, but it is not doing much.

dont know, some minutes driving, we get to a house.

I am not running anymore.

They figured

They basically blindfold me, hands behind my back.

I cant see very much.

They pull me into the house.

Tied me

I do my--I do my best to try

They pull me

10

off.

I think it was a two-story house

11

because I thought I saw stairs going up.

12

They basically go through my--you know, they went through my pockets

13

when they first found me, but then at the house, you know, they take

14

everything out and look at it.

And they are talking.

15

hear is talking at this point.

And one of the first things they do

16

when I get in the house is they immediately start putting some kind

17

of a strap.

18

things they used to tie my hand behind my back, but they used like a

19

strap.

20

cut off the circulation to my hands and for the hours that I had my

21

hands tied behind my back, I actually lost sensation in my thumb that

22

I didnt regain until like months, like actually probably years

23

later.

They get me to the house.

Alls I can

They basically--I dont know how many times--or how many

There was a rope.

There was something else.

And it actually

Probably about after the first year-and-a-half or so, I

E0236

234

finally started regaining more sensation--you know, the full

sensation in my thumb.

going to go anywhere.

Anyway, they get their kicks and blows in on the way or whenever they

had the opportunity.

get go, I understood that these types of--from what I could

understand of the culture and from what I could understand of just

human nature in general, from the very get go, one, it doesnt matter

if you are a UFC prize fighter, they got six guys with AK-47s.

10

are not going to do any Hollywood cool guy stuff at that point.

11

had a hand gun, it would have been a level--it probably would have

12

been a level playing ground because they dont actually ride around

13

with bullets in their guns.

So, they made damn sure that my arms werent

And then they threw me on the motorcycle.

That is just part of it. I knew from the very

14

Q.

Right.

15

A.

They have to actually rack them.

You
If I

But, that is hindsight

16

20/20.

From the very first get go, I understood that if I presented

17

myself as a threat, if I tried something immediately, that would only

18

make things worse.

19

possible, make yourself as unthreatening as possible.

20

going to change the situation by struggling.

21

the right moment, for the right time.

22

habit of thinking--once they think they get a grip on something, once

23

they think that something isnt going to struggle or somebody is not

E0237

So, it is basically make yourself as small as

You are not

You have to wait for

And human beings make the

235

going to struggle anymore, then they start to relax.

Once they think

that they are the superior, then they start to relax.

very get go, it is like self-survival mode.

small.

So, from the

It is make yourself

Q.

Sure.

A.

Non-threatening and just go with it.

So, they, you know,

motorcycled me to another location, you know, take pictures.

village shows up, laughs, children throw rocks.

when like one village they came to.

The

I tried to escape

First they rode around and they

10

were radioing trying to find somebody.

11

the radio.

12

short wave push-to-talk radio.

13

English.

14

to find, because we rode around from here to there and then finally,

15

in the middle of like, from what I could see, from the cracks in the

16

blindfold, there just anywhere--there wasnt anything nearby except

17

for like a ruins, kind of a mud wall that was falling apart.

18

looked like it used to be a house or something.

You could hear the beeping of the radio.

So, that must have been who they were talking to and trying

Q.

This is still the first day?

20

A.

This is the first day.

21

Q.

First day.

22

A.

So, this guy sees me.

English that is not fluent.

E0238

They had the

And finally, we find a guy who speaks

19

23

I kept hearing them go on to

It

He says, How are you in broken

You know, I am fine.

236

Apparently, my

hands looked like something, because he immediately told the guys to

take the restraints off and then they took me.

also had glasses.

well-read.

wrists in, and then they had taken just typical chain that you would

use to tie your dogs up in the yard, and they put it around my wrists

with padlocks.

hands.

not good.

He was educated.

He

Another sign in their culture of somebody who was

So, they took the straps off that they had bound my

Thankfully, that allowed blood flow back into my

I dont know what they looked like, but the way they felt was
So, he--they gave him my wallet that had my drivers

10

license, ID, all that in it.

11

off the bat, they had my name.

12

I was an American Soldier.

13

And, you know, he saw that.

They had my dog tags.

So, right

And they knew

So, after that, they take me to a village, which must have

14

been like the village where those guys were from, because the old

15

elders come out.

16

they leave me outside this, what looks to be like a meeting hall.

17

Basically, I could see the doors to it from the cracks.

18

leave me out front and the kids are all there.

19

my back.

20

head and they leave.

21

into the building.

22

throwing pebbles at me and stuff.

23

know, I cant get the blind fold off.

E0239

They are all proud about them and everything.

I am kneeling on the ground.

So,

So, they

My hands are behind

They throw a blanket over my

I could hear their footsteps leave and they go

I know that there is kids there because they are
So, I try to get the blind--you
I try to rock my knees and I
237

try to get my hands, because I can actually pull my hands out. I am

flexible enough to get my hands around.

my hands in front of me, I could get the blanket off.

the blindfold off.

run.

enthusiasts.

going to rely on my ability to run as a possibility of outrunning

them in the sense of, one, the terrain was hopefully going to--

because we were in pretty--you know, driving to that village, it was

So, I figure if I could get

I could get

If I could get the blindfold off, then I could

And, you know, I knew the Afghans, they are not exercise
They dont exercise on a regular basis.

So, I was

10

pretty up and down terrain.

So, they couldnt just ride their

11

motorcycles just wherever.

12

47s.

13

actually thinking about that at the time.

14

need to get out of this situation because this is getting worse.

15

But, I never could get my hands from behind me.

16

could like--I could like--I ended up working my, you know--actually,

17

I ended up, you know, getting the blindfold slightly off with my

18

knee.

19

50 feet and the entire village apparently turned up to stop me.

20

was that attempt.

Was it a smart idea?

Most likely I would have gotten myself shot, but I wasnt

And I just decided to run for it.

I was thinking about, I

Q.

Okay.

22

A.

They put me on another motorcycle.

another location in a tiny room.

E0240

But, I did end up--I

Unfortunately, I got about

21

23

No. They had AK-

That

They drove me to

I saw some gray-bearded old man who

238

they apparently had brought me there for him to see me.

I dont know

who he was.

elder or something like that.

for some time. [After this they take me to a tent, they hold me there, and]

then they transferred me again to another house. They left me in that room

until it started to--until the sun started to sink.

that, they pulled me out and they put me in back of the truck. After they

put me in the back of the truck, the guy comes up to me and he starts

talking to me in broken English. You know, Who are you?

Apparently, he was the areas some kind of leader or

So, they brought me to that guy.

I was there

And then they--after

And he says--he

10

says--one, he says, If you move, I am going to kill you, but dont worry,

11

we take you--take you to another place I think it was. So, they put me

12

in the back of this truck.

13

they throw blankets on top of me.

14

and drives and keeps driving.

15

drove through the night.

16

fairly steep grades.

17

out, it was flat.

18

roads wind up and started going up mountains.

19

They put me in the bed of the truck and

And then that truck just drives

How long it drove, I have no idea.

Drove through uneven terrain up pretty

And there was--like when they first started

And then the road got really rough.

Towards the next day, they kept driving.

Yeah.

No.

And then the

So, that

20

night, they drive us.

21

morning, they stop.

22

English speaking guy, and four other guys get out and we start

23

walking into the desert, into the mountains.

E0241

We

Towards--still dark out, but towards

They pulled me out of the truck.

239

Me, the

And we come across a

couple of rivers.

We get into valleys.

It is dark out.

I cant

really see very much.

the country.

house.

second night.

night.

appears to be, by the sound of it, there is a whole bunch of other

people already there.

to them.

So, we just basically--we wind our way through

We get to a house.

We get to a village and into a

They put me on a bed mat on the floor.

No, that was the

The first night--the first night, they drive into the

The first night we get to a house in a room where there

So, they put me in that room on the floor next

That is the--and then the next day, before everybody else

10

wakes up, they pick me up, they pull me out, they put me back in the

11

truck.

12

time came.

13

dismounted and then we got out of the truck.

14

spent that night walking through basically mountains, like little

15

hills, and valleys.

They drive throughout that day and they didnt stop.

Night

They drove partially into the night, but then we

And then that was--we

16

Q.

Okay.

17

A.

And spent the evening walking until we got to a village.

18

It took me into another house.

Put me on--at this time, they put me

19

on like an Afghan bed.

20

have.

21

guards in the room, obviously.

22

Then they gave me some water.

23

came, they got me out of there, put me in another vehicle and drove

You have seen the type of beds that they

So, they put me on one of those and left me there.

E0242

They left me there.

I fell asleep.

240

There was

I fell asleep.

Before gray light

me into the day, into the night, which was in the mountains; pretty

intense mountains.

Gray light comes.

mountain.

hike up the mountain.

Q.

And towards the earlier morning, we stopped.

We get out of the trucks.

We hike up the

This is where the [indiscernible 12:34:16] pick up.

Okay.

Okay.

We

And this is where I meet Mullah Sangeen.

There is one--and it occurred somewhere in

where you just described.

And I think it occurs probably within the

first 24 to 36, maybe 48 hours.

video.

There is, I think it is a cell phone

10

A.

Okay.

11

Q.

In the intel, there is a--and I think it is a--I want to

12

say you left--it was the 29th, the evening of the 29th.

13

is the 30th.

14

when you walked out of the wire at COP Mest.

15

a five second, maybe ten second cell phone video of you.

So, it would be probably 36 hours I am guessing from

16

A.

Of the guy slapping me?

17

Q.

No.

There is a--it is like

It doesnt show him slapping you.

18

is just a picture of you.

19

robe.

20

hard to tell.

21

tent, because it looks like there is a tent pole.

22

you there is a bright blue box.

23

a womans tent.

A white Afghan dress.

E0243

The next day

It just shows--it

And the video shows you in like a white

It looks like you are in a tent.

It is a close up of you.

It is

It looks like you are in

And then behind

So, it almost would imply like it is

241

1
2

A.

I am sitting cross-legged on the floor with my hands behind

my back----

Q.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly.

A.

----and I am kind of leaning over?

Q.

Yeah, exactly.

A.

Yeah, that would have been in the first day, toward the

later end of it.

well.

man [I am not sure if the man was Arab].

They took me to a tent as

That would be the--the tent came after I saw a white [haired] Arab

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

Yeah.

12

They took me to a tent.

That was--the guys that were moving me, that was

their tent.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

A.

And the guy who was the head of the pack or whatever, he

15

was the one that was, you know, that was I believe his tent.

16

Q.

Okay.

17

A.

I saw a woman outside the tent and the way he interacted

18

with her suggested that it was like one of his wives or his sister or

19

something like that.

20

Q.

I mean, there was a bright blue box in there, which would

21

imply that it was a womans tent or a woman was also an occupant of

22

that tent.

23

A.

E0244

Yeah. Yeah.
242

Q.

The intelligence report, you know, the chatter now between

the Taliban, and the insurgents, and the Afghans, it is all over the

map at this point, because now everybody knows.

would see in the intelligence is bullshit, because it is deliberate

deception.

embellishing with each other because they are trying to raise up the

price for you.

not to believe.

Half of it is poor translations.

So, half of what you

Half of it is Talibans

So, you dont know what the hell to believe and what

A.

Yeah.

10

Q.

But, there is a piece of intelligence that we think is

11

credible, because the guy says, Get a video of him.

12

We already have a video of him.

13

card from a phone that has got this like five second thing of you in

14

this tent.

15

tent pole and you can see the blue box behind you.

16

whole damn things turns this way.

And then that is the end of it.

17

So, do you recall that happening?

It is 1 July, sometime 1 July.

18

So, probably I want to say 1000, or 1200, 1 July.

19

been early morning, not the first day, but the second day.

20

might have been after you had the----

21

A.

And he says,

And then there actually is a SIM

And like two seconds of it is you and you can see the
And then the

So, it would have

So, that

The way that the screen tilted would have been--if he was

22

holding the camera or the cell phone like this, did it tilt like he

23

went like this to look at it?

E0245

243

1
2

Q.

No, it went kind of sideways.

I mean, you are still in the

picture.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

You are in the picture and then you are sideways like this.

A.

So, he didnt----

Q.

You didnt move.

A.

The phone did.

The phone did.

But, if he was like holding it on me and

then he decided to look at it----

Q.

Yeah.

10

A.

----and he did something like this, yeah, that was the

11
12

Yeah.

Yeah.

first day.
Q.

Okay.

I will see if I can dig it up and we will show it to

13

you tomorrow morning.

14

have it, and I will show it to you.

15

A.

Yeah.

16

Q.

Okay.

17

And then I will see if I can dig it up if we

So, I mean, that closes the gap from leaving the

COP, to point of capture, to 9 July; is that right?

18

A.

Yeah.

19

Q.

Or not 9 July, but when you met with Mullah Sangeen and

20

that is where the SERE guys picked up.

21

A.

Yeah, that is where the SERE guys picked up.

22

Q.

And I dont need to run you through anymore of that.

23

A.

Yeah.

E0246

244

Q.

Okay.

Let me go back and ask you a couple of other things.

These are the sort of things that come out in some of the press and

we just might as well address them.

4
5

E-mail home, letter home, something like that where you

referred to an Afghan girl who got hit by an MRAP.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

So, help me with that one.

A.

I knew that was going to be an issue.

9
10

If you would mind, I

am going to read that word for word.

Q.

No, I dont mind.

I just assume we address all these

11

things because these are the questions that are all going to be

12

asked.

13
14

A.

Yeah. [Reading letter.] [At this point I was unable to bring

the letter up on my smart phone]

15

If I remember it correctly, and I read it last night, the

16

actual wording of the letter states very clearly that the reference

17

to running over of children is a conversation, not an actual event.

18

It is--I am referencing literally the fact that we dont have a

19

problem with the fact that some of these Soldiers are talking about,

20

Yeah.

Yeah, if I see a kid on the road, I am going to run them

21

down.

It is not word for word, but if you go back and you read the

22

actual letter.

23

that Rolling Stone likes to take little splits of.

E0247

It is up on Wikipedia.

245

It is the infamous letter

Q.

Excerpts, yeah.

A.

Yeah, if you read that letter, it says very clearly that it

is talking about conversations that Soldiers have amongst each other

about what you would do.

see a woman walking past, the Soldiers would be like, If you put a

bag on her head, I will do her.

Q.

Yeah.

A.

So, that is what I am referencing.

Right.

It is the same kind of conversation.

You

Okay.
I am referencing the

fact that here is these Soldiers in this country and we dont have a

10

problem with the fact that we are talking about, Yeah, I have no

11

problem running down a kid in the road.

12

Q.

Right.

Okay.

13

A.

That is not how we conduct ourselves back in the United

14

States.

15

we think it is cool to talk about, Yeah, I am going to kill a kid

16

just because they are in the road or I am going to run a kid down

17

with a truck just because they are in the road.

But for some strange reason, here we are in Afghanistan and

18

Q.

Okay.

19

A.

The reference in that letter was directly linked to a

20

conversation.

21

Q.

22
23

Okay.

We never ran over a kid.

All right.

No, that is good.

bravado again or however you want to describe it.

CDC: Sea stories.

E0248

246

And so, again, mere

1
2
3
4
5

Q.

Yeah.

Yeah.

that with anybody.

A.

Because we have been unable to corroborate

So, your explanation makes sense.

Yeah, it says it very clearly and I wish I could pull it up

because you can see it.

Q.

And, again, you are--the point you made earlier is a very

good point.

and letters that went home that arent public that we could find all

this kind of stuff on.

9
10

And that is, there was probably a whole bunch of e-mails

CDC: Lets hear it for the internet and war.

Q.

11

Right.
Okay.

So, that is fair.

So, the next one, similar.

This isnt even you.

12

This is your dad referring to a relationship that you had with

13

Lieutenant Bradshaw.

14

CDC: What did he say?

15

A.

I have never----

16

Q.

Okay.

17

I am sorry.

Lieutenant Bradshaw was a lieutenant in

the battalion.

18

CDC: Right.

19

Q.

Right.

Right.

He died.

And was the first casualty that they had.

And your dad

20

didnt tell me--actually, your dad did tell me this when I had him on

21

the--when we talked on the phone, because I asked him about it.

22

had said--and this was probably--I think this was in a Rolling Stone

23

article too, which they are very upset about by the way.

E0249

247

I mean,

He

they really felt like they were exploited by Michael Hastings and

this guy who was helping to----

CDC: Farwell [phonetic].

Q.

Right.

Yeah.

They really felt exploited by the whole

thing, but I dont want to speak on their behalf and it is not my

place to judge.

your father was quoted in the Rolling Stone and then also mentioned

to me that you were devastated--not devastated.

impacted or affected by the death of Lieutenant Bradshaw because you

But, in any case, what the relevant piece of it is,

10

and he had developed a very close relationship.

11

How is that possible?

12

a different company.

13

guys got close at NTC.

14

is important is what you have to say.

15
16

You were severely

And when I said,

This is a PFC in one platoon.

Bradshaw is in

And he believed that it happened; that you

So, anyway, none of that is important.

What

What are the facts?

A.

The facts would be, first I asked for him to actually

17

present a letter, because I never even knew a Bradshaw.

18

met a Lieutenant Bradshaw.

19

Lieutenant Fancey.

The only lieutenant I had ever met was

20

Q.

Right.

21

A.

Which was our first platoon leader.

22

in NTC.

23

Q.

E0250

I never even

He was your platoon--your first platoon leader.

I never met a Bradshaw

I had never even heard of--I dont even remember hearing---So, it is just not true?
248

1
2

A.

Yeah.

I have never even heard of someone dying named

So, it is just not true?

Bradshaw.

Q.

Okay.

A.

Yeah, it is not true.

5
6

I dont know.

Like I said, I would

ask him to present a letter.

Q.

No, and that is fine.

got the information from.

Rolling Stone.

he heard it from you.

Again, he is--I dont know where he

He might have got it from Farwell or

I mean, they may have--you know, again, he didnt say

He didnt say--at least I dont recall him

10

saying he heard it from you.

He was searching for explanations.

11

I am going to try to defend the comment, he is searching for

12

explanations.

13

A.

Yeah.

14

Q.

Okay.

So, that helps me.

Yeah, that is important.

If

Okay.

15

So, we will continue on this same vein.

16

are alleged to have made a comment to Gerleve maybe, maybe to

17

Leatherman, maybe Buetow, one of them, where you said--soon after you

18

arrived in country, you said, What happened if I were to skin

19

somebodys face and then wear it as a mask.

20

A.

You made a comment or you

I believe that was probably Gerleve, but I think I read something

21

about this [read on the web about Gerleves claim that I had said this].

22

All right.

23

back in Alaska.

E0251

One, it was [not] in country. My comment in regards to this was

249

Q.

Okay.

A.

Now, I didnt say anything about skinning someones face

and wearing it.

the subject of skinning somebody for interrogation.

doing was--Gerleve talks a lot of talk.

at the same time.

it.

can look this up too.

Murakami.

10

What I was making reference to--I said--I brought up

Now, what I was

And I think Buetow was there

I am pretty sure Leatherman probably heard about

But, it was a comment I made towards Gerleve.

Now, if you--you

There is a Japanese author called Haruki

He writes fictional novels.

Now, one of his more famed

novels is called The Wind-Up Bird Chronicles. It is a very good---

11

CDC: The what?

12

A.

The Wind-Up Bird Chronicles.

13

Q.

Wind-Up Bird.

14

CDC: Wind-Up Bird.

15

Q.

Chronicles.

16

A.

It is not for everybody because it is a very fantastic

Okay.

17

novel.

It leaves your imagination screaming, literally, in the sense

18

of, it gives you just enough to make you get interested in it, but it

19

doesnt give you the answers that you want.

20

Q.

Filling in the blanks yourself.

21

A.

Yeah.

You have to work at----

There is so many directions you can go in.

Now, in

22

that book, there is a chapter, because it jumps around from present

23

to past.

E0252

And what it does is, it goes back to Japanese invasion of

250

China and the border between Mongolia that is being--the Russians are

using Mongolians to hold the border against the Japanese.

Chinese are part of, you know, are mixed up in it now.

is talking about this guy who is one of the main characters in the

book.

They are supposed to go with some intelligence guy to collect some

information.

Mongolians.

9
10

This chapter

He is a young officer and he gets picked to go on an intel.

They get caught by the Russians who are using the

Now, the Mongolians are notorious skinners.

CDC: When is this supposed to take place?

The early 1900s or---

11

A.

12

CDC: Okay.

13

A.

14

And

Yeah.

The book is supposed to take place during the World Wars

when Japan invades China.

15

CDC: That is the 30s.

16

A.

30s.

Yeah.

So, what happens is, this young lieutenant,

17

who is one of the main characters of the book, once they get caught,

18

this guy that he is supposed to be helping, he is supposed to be some

19

secret intel officer or whatever.

20

Mongolians who are working for the Russians.

21

supposed to be infamous skinners, animal skinners.

22

the torture scene that follows in these chapters is this intelligence

23

guy being skinned alive as an interrogation method.

E0253

So, they get caught by the

251

Now, the Mongolians are

Now, one of the--

And this leaves

such a raw impact on the young officer that it changes his life.

basically, you know--so, that is the chapter in the book where you

get the idea of skinning someone alive.

Now, the reason that I brought it up was because Sergeant

Gerleve talks a lot of talk.

wait to start shooting.

because he had just come back from Iraq.

And one of his comments was, I cant

I cant wait to start killing people again

Q.

Right.

A.

So, my comment was a gauge to see how he was going to

10

It

react.

I will admit I am a bit of a shock artist.

11

CDC: Provocateur.

12

A.

Exactly.

In fact, in a lot of conversations, I will have a

13

habit of contradicting myself because what I am trying to see is if

14

people will catch on to it and how people are going to react.

15

am talking about something and then suddenly I start talking about

16

something else, and I contradict myself, I want to see how that

17

person is going to react to it.

18

So, I brought that subject up to see his reaction.

If I

Because

19

if he is so interested in, you know, he wants to start killing people

20

again, I wanted to see, Well, are you all talk or how are you going

21

to react?

22

that takes an inhumane coldness that I certainly--I cant even----

23

Q.

E0254

Because the idea of skinning someone alive, all right,

Sure.
252

A.

You can ask my family.

I dont kill animals.

Q.

Sure.

A.

So, I am not the--if you look at my background, do I go out

Right.

and hunt animals and skin them?

habit, and sport] done that.

to hunt, then I have to hunt, but I dont make a habit of skinning things.

So, my question was to flush out what kind of perversion he was going

to be.

yeah, that is something I would do, that is a lot of guff coming

10

from somebody, who from obvious first impression isnt the type of

11

person who is going to be able to stomach something like that and be

12

able to do something like that.

13

situation.

14

No, I dont do that.

I have never [as a

I have lived in the wilderness and if I have

Because if he was going to go along with that and go, Oh,

Q.

Okay.

Sure.

Okay.

So, I just--I wanted to press the

Some of the--several of the guys, you

15

know, said in their original statements, and also when we--you know,

16

when I asked them, So, what do you think he was doing?

17

them guessed what you were doing, by the way.

18

mean, I shouldnt say all of them.

19

many explanations as there were individuals.

20

CDC: As to what?

21

Q.

22

CDC: Oh, okay.

E0255

None of

But they all gave--I

They gave as many--they gave as

As there were individuals.

253

1
2

Q.

So, if there were 25 guys in the platoon and I asked them,

What was he doing----

A.

26 opinions.

Q.

----I got 25 answers as to what your intent was.

What I

find interesting about that in doing this, this is just a comment,

and I would be interested in your response to it, is that they are

all pretty certain that they were right, because they refer to your

relationship with them, which seemed to be pretty tailored.

your relationship with each individual--your relationship with Sutton

I mean,

10

is very different than your relationship with Leatherman, which is

11

very different than your relationship with Coe, which is very

12

different than your relationship with Barrow, which is a very

13

different relationship than your relationship with Fry.

14

A.

Yeah.

15

Q.

And, you know, and Cross and all the rest of them.

So,

16

when they respond with such certainty, they are responding with

17

certainty because they felt like they know you.

18

difference between them is so great.

19

like to let you comment on, I think your relationship with them is

20

tailored.

And yet, the

But, I think, again, I would

I have been listening to you talk all day long.

21

A.

Yeah.

22

Q.

And it sounds to me like you target your communications to

23

the individual.

E0256

254

A.

Yeah.

Q.

Is that a fair statement?

A.

They are all different individuals.

They are all different

individuals, so I am obviously not going to talk to Sutton on the

same things that I am going to talk to Barrow on.

different interests, Sutton has different interests, so when I got to

talk to them, it is going to be a completely different relationship.

8
9

Q.

Right.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Because Barrow has

I mean, I just--I mean, I

think that unusually so, you are that way.

10

A.

Yeah. Yeah.

11

Q.

In that, you tend to--and I am not a psychologist or a

12

psychiatrist so please dont--I dont want to take this one too far,

13

but it is germane to understanding all of these comments and all of

14

these varied statements, and how confident they are and how

15

passionate they are about their feelings.

16

who you want that person--who you perceive that person wants you to

17

be.

Is that, you tend to be

18

A.

Yeah.

19

Q.

I mean, is that----

20

A.

Yeah, that is fair.

21

Q.

Is that an unfair comment?

22

A.

No, that is a very fair comment.

23

Q.

Okay.

E0257

I mean, just---255

A.

I am going to react differently to--Sergeant Leatherman, I

had a problem with because he is kind of a know-it-all and he had

that tendency of irking everybody else.

Q.

Right.

A.

So, I am obviously going to react to him in a different way

than I am going to react to somebody who I am close friends with like

Sutton or Coe.

Q.

Okay.

A.

So, for Sergeant Leatherman, his perspective of me is going

10

to be a little abrasive, because that is how I was with him, because

11

I am not his friend.

12

Q.

Okay.

Sure.

13

A.

We didnt have that connection and I wasnt going to be

14

buddy-buddy with him because I had disagreement with what he was

15

saying or with what he was doing.

16

Q.

Okay.

17

A.

So, yeah, it is going to be--you know, I switched it.

I am

18

not going to make my friend or I am not going to treat my friends

19

like an enemy and I am not going to treat my, not enemy, but I am not

20

going to treat someone who I dont get along with like a buddy.

21

Q.

Okay.

22

A.

I am going to be civil with them, but I am going----

E0258

256

Q.

So, the explanations that they give, Well, he was going to

India.

He was going to go to Pakistan, be a shadow in the

mountains, and kill bad people and help children.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

Or, Nope, he was going to go through Pakistan to India.

And, Nope, he was going to go through Pakistan to India, and then he

was going to join the mob.

mafia in a small gang, kill all the folks so that the leaders respect

him so he could climb the ranks and then go to Europe.

10

CDC: Right.

11

Q.

You know, And he was going to join the

That is the first week.

I mean, yeah.

I mean, these are the things that they said.

12

No, he told me.

He was interested in doing this.

13

far is it to India?

14

all of that.

15

A.

All right.

16

Q.

I am not making this stuff up.

17

A.

No, I know that, because--yeah, I know that.

How far is to China?

18

things in context of the situation.

19

standing around, bored out of their minds.

20

for lack of better words, a romantic.

21

I have an imagination.

22

adventure.

23

watching movies, reading books.

E0259

He asked me, How

So, help me understand

I am telling you---Now, take

It would be a bunch of privates

We start talking.

I am,

I am a story teller.

I am a--

I have a sense of curiosity, a sense of

I have all of these things.

All right.

I was raised

My experience of life was that

257

dramatic sense.

So, in a conversation, when I am talking to somebody

and I want to see how they are going to react on certain subjects, if

you stand around talking about the weather all day, it is going to

get very boring.

Q.

Sure.

A.

If you stand around talking about, I am going to go work

Sure.

at a bank it is very boring.

Q.

Right.

A.

You dont want to stand around talking about, Well, the

10

weapons systems down on the truck isnt working right.

11

Q.

Right.

12

A.

You dont want to stand there talking about, Well, so-in-

13

so is being a jerk again.

So, lets mix things up.

Lets talk

14

about--you know, and I cant talk about philosophy with some of the

15

guys, because it is over their heads and they are not interested in

16

it.

17

Q.

Right.

18

A.

You cant talk about video games all day.

19

Q.

Right.

20

A.

And if you start talking about girls, then that just causes

21

the problem of, We are here for 12 months and there arent any

22

girls.

23

Q.

E0260

Right.
258

1
2

A.

And then they start getting disrespectful and it is just

like, Lets not go down that road.

Q.

Yeah.

A.

So, conversation, I am trying to gauge--because I am new to

the unit.

Q.

Sure.

A.

First time I got to the unit.

So, when I got to the unit,

everybody was in such chaos of trying to get, you know, first NTC,

and then there sudden deployment, and then I would deploy late.

10

conversation is going.

11

watch.

12

certain buttons that might be issues.

13

what a persons character is going to be.

I listen.

And I prod certain topics or I kind of nudge or I tickle

14
15

I am doing what I usually do.

So,

Just, you know, just to see

Sergeant Leatherman, I had a tendency of challenging him

because he was supposed to know it all.

16

Q.

Right.

17

A.

So, I had a tendency of being a little abrasive with him

18

because of that.

You know, that was to test his character.

19

to test who he was.

20

guy.

21

see that it was wearing on him.

22

Like one day, I had like, I went into his room looking for him and I

23

saw on his floor a box of Kool-Aid.

Ingalls, he was a good kid.

Hilarious person.

E0261

That was

He was an awesome

Was he good for being a Soldier?

I could

So, around him, I had to be a joker.

Now, I know him.

259

He likes his

little things.

Someone had sent him from home the little thing of

Kool-Aid things, so I took the Kool-Aid because we were just getting

ready to go out to the TCP.

at the TCP, I said, Hey, Ingalls, did you bring some of that Kool-

Aid that you got from home?

that.

to my truck and I took some of the Kool-Aid and I mixed it into a

water bottle.

stomach and he usually doesnt have a chance to eat, so he is usually

So, I took the Kool-Aid.

And then out

He said, No, man, someone snatched

And he was all disappointed about it.

So, then I went back

Because he is always--he is a growing boy.

He has a

10

always hungry.

So, I got back to the truck and I have this very

11

colorful bottle of water.

12

what you got? Give me some.

13

drink and I go, Whats that taste like?

14

Kool-Aid.

15

to the truck and get the box. I threw it back at him, because I knew

16

that there was that disappointment of Someone just snatched my Kool-

17

Aid.

18

exhausting watch.

19

nervous because we are hitting IEDs.

20

spot with him, you know, Bergdahls joking.

21

trick to play.

22

Now, I have my Kool-Aid and suddenly being out here isnt such a

23

bad thing.

And he immediately perks up and, Hey,

So, I toss it to him and he takes a

So, I laugh and I pull the box out.

But then we are out at the TCP.

E0262

He says, It tastes like

No, I had to go back

We are at the daily grinds of

He is--it is wearing on him because he gets

You know, so that was a bright
You know, that was a

He could laugh at it and he had the bright side of,

You know, so with Ingalls, I had to be a joker.

260

With Sutton, I had to--you know, because he is a very deep

thinker.

So, with Sutton, I had to get into more of a kind of

philosophy kind of psychological thing.

more of, you know, lighthearted guys.

of a lighthearted thing.

Barrow and Cross, they are

So, being around them was more

So, the conversations were led on by simply me doing what I

always do.

You test--you see what people are going to do.

right.

put me in a room full of guys, I am not the type of guy that is not

Going to now--all right.

All

I am just like everybody else.

You

10

going to want to establish myself as the Alpha male.

11

pushover that cant--that could happily go and sit on the sidelines

12

and not--if I am not good at something, that bothers me.

13

to be better than everybody else?

14

everyone else, but I do want to do--I dont want to be arrogant about

15

it, but I do want to be better than the average.

16

myself.

17

Q.

Sure.

18

A.

And do I like winning?

Do I want

No, I dont want to be better than

I want to push

Yes, I like winning.

19

so, here I am.

20

ridiculous education.

21

what they learned.

22

know about computers.

23

grew up out in the middle of nowhere.

E0263

I am not the

All of these guys have had educations.

He is Korean.

Do I like-Sutton has a

They grew up and it is amazing

So, modern technology.

All of these guys, they

They know about the social interactions.

I had very little interaction

261

with technology.

I had very little interaction with social

structures.

video games, not so much.

conversations, I would be lagging behind because I didnt know all

that stuff.

I had very little interaction with girls.

You know,

So, on the average day, or average

Q.

Sure.

A.

I didnt know how to use my computer.

I didnt know how

to--I wasnt like that [snaps fingers] with the radio systems.

So, I

could come off as a little slow when it came to everyday subjects.

10

And they would--sometimes like Cross would look at me like, Are you

11

serious?

You dont know how to do that?

12

ability.

I am a terrible speller.

13

would ask somebody how to spell a word and they would look at me

14

like, Are you serious?

15

that I had that could, you know, be a point of, you know, I am good

16

at this was the fact that I grew up in the mountains.

17

I understood land nav.

18

terrain.

19

knew how to, you know, I could do, you know, knife fights.

20

basics in knife fighting.

21

that I was familiar with that these guys, more or less, city boys

22

coming from public education, they didnt have that.

23

Q.

E0264

Or like my spelling

And they would look at me--I

The one thing that I knew and the one thing

The fact that

The fact that I understood maps.

I could survive out in the wilderness.

I could do

I knew weapons.

I had

So, these were things that I knew how to--

Sure.
262

1
2

A.

So, going across the Pakistan mountains.

How far is it to

China? I knew those answers, because that was land nav.

They didnt.

Q.

Right.

A.

So, in a conversation, I would say, Oh, yeah, what if I

went across the Pakistan mountains?

Oh, wow.

they didnt.

Q.

And they would look at me like,

The joke was, I knew the reality of the situation, but

You see?

Okay.

So, it was just something that you could contribute

to the conversation?

They--and I dont mean to cut you off, but I

10

will just tell you that they all sort of remember it that way also. I

11

mean, none of these people thought you were serious.

12

A.

Na.

13

Q.

They all thought it was, you know, FOB talk.

14

bored to death out here.

15

other with wild and crazy stories to pass the time.

We were

These PFCs are just trying to outdo each

16

A.

Yeah.

17

Q.

And so I just wanted to see if there was more to it than

19

A.

No.

20

Q.

Okay.

18

21
22

that.

I mean, that is fair.

words in your mouth.

A.

E0265

It was just----

263

Again, I dont want to put

Q.

One of the other questions I wanted to ask you, and I think

you have already answered it, and this has to deal with some of the

public opinion out there that you were ostracized by your platoon or

that you were isolated by your platoon.

that I get from them. I mean, what I get from them, and I want to

hear your version of it, because again, it doesnt matter what they

think.

That is not the impression

What matters is what you have to say.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

But, what I have come to believe after talking with many of

10

them, and this isnt in their statements, it is in the conversations

11

that I have had with them since, is that, you were an integral member

12

of the platoon.

13

ostracized.

14

more time alone than the others did, because sometimes they were

15

doing activities that you didnt want to participate in, but also you

16

liked doing activities that required to be alone.

17

would try to drag you out to join them for dinner or whatever.

18

sometimes you would go and sometimes you wouldnt.

19

within the platoon, there isnt anything to corroborate.

20

public view that you were isolated or so--I dont know, tell me your

21

view of it.

22
23

A.

That you were a team player.

You were not isolated.

That you were not

That you chose to spend perhaps

And that they

But, it is not-Some of the

Well, this--my behavior with my platoon will tie into my

repeated habits of being in social environments from childhood.

E0266

And

264

I am

an introvert. I have to actually put a lot of effort into being a

conversationalist in social environments.

because that just drains me.

a regular conversation with somebody.

from very early on in life, being an introvert, and being--coming

from the household that I came from, coming from my environment, I

learned a long time ago, you learn more by listening and watching,

and standing off to the side, plus being extremely shy, that is what

I did naturally.

I cant go to parties

It takes a lot of effort to carry on in

So, I have a tendency, one,

That is what I learned to do.

And you learn a lot

10

and you are able to have that perspective of seeing what is going on

11

and hearing what is going on. Whereas when you are in it and

12

interacting in it, you know, that is funner, but you dont get the

13

whole perspective and also it takes a huge amount of energy.

14

Now, in the basic boot camp, or basic camp, basic training,

15

I was the same way.

Drill Sergeant Olivera made me the squad leader.

16

The squad leader of the first squad.

17

the way up through basic.

18

the quietest guy there.

19

there.

20

the social interactions.

21

like to talk.

22

like to talk.

23

Q.

And I kept that position all

But, you know, in basic, I was probably

And everybody knew I was the quietest guy

I was also one of the older guys.

E0267

I am quiet.

It is just how I deal with

Everybody else--human beings

Most human beings like to talk.

Right.
265

Some humans dont

A.

So, for those people that want to talk, let them talk.

They feel better about it.

make them talk.

For those who dont want to talk, dont

They will feel better about it.

So, when I got to my unit, like I said, the best--it is a

very neutral position.

When you are in such close quarters with

people and you dont want to--and this is your team, and you dont

want to cause friction or you dont want to upset people, especially

when you are the new guys there, the best thing to do is to just let

them be who they are.

Let them talk. Let them speak.

Let them say

10

what they say.

And I will do what I do and I will keep to myself. I

11

will keep quiet.

I am not going to be wild mouth.

12

be in your face.

Do I like books?

13

is how I have learned so much that I have learned.

14

spending time by myself?

15

That was the environment that I lived in.

16

I wanted to be alone.

17

awkward reasons, embarrassed shy reasons as a teenager, and then as a

18

young adult, functional reasons because I had things to focus on.

I am not going to

Yes, I love books, because that

Do I like

Literally, I was raised to be a loner.

I was raised, not because

Simply because survival reasons for a kid,

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

You know, I am not the socialite that wants to waste--you

21

know, it takes a lot of time to be a social person. But, I didnt

22

have time for that.

23

So, when I was around my unit, when I was around those guys in the

E0268

I wanted to focus on more in-depth subjects.

266

squad, I am not the type of person who is just going to invite myself

to dinner.

they were testing.

I was quiet, they are not going to impose themselves upon me.

was basically--my behavior was, you know, I did my--you know, I

interacted with these guys on a level that I thought, one, was going

to be the best image that I could present to them. I wasnt going to

present myself as a know-it-all or as a loud mouth, or anything like

that.

And I think when I first got there, they were a little-They were not quite sure who I was.

And because
So, it

I have just simply learned that being the introvert type of

10

person, being quiet, watching and listening so that when you do talk

11

to somebody, you talk to them on that level of who they are.

12

talk to--or you help them.

13

watch and you pay attention, and you know that so-in-so has a habit

14

of leaving their multi-tool back in the FOB or whatever, and you know

15

that that one particular gun mount needs a multi-tool to get the

16

stupid pin out, then make sure you have your multi-tool on it and

17

when you see that guy going for it, you know he is going to ask for a

18

multi-tool, so you jump over to that vehicle and you help him out.

19

So, you have to--when

20

to--standing back and watching and listening to what is going on,

21

helps you, especially when you are the new guy on the team.

22

you learn how to mold yourself into the team.

E0269

Or, you

Like when we were doing exercises, if you

you are a part of a team, you have to be able

267

It helps

Yeah, I like reading books.

And there is times, because I

am an introvert, there are just times when I just need that space to

recharge, because it takes a lot of effort.

in that social environment, I am interacting with them.

to be grumpy because I don't want to talk to them.

be exhausted and snap at them or something like that.

forth, you know, I have to make sure that you are coming across

right.

Q.

Sure.

And, you know, when I am

I dont want

I dont want to
I have to put

So, let me just ask you, from your perspective, you

10

never felt as though this platoon treated poorly, treated you as an

11

outcast----

12

A.

No.

13

Q.

----didnt accept you, didnt embrace you, didnt make you

14

an integral part of the----

15

A.

16

was----

17

Q.

No.

It was a team.

There was no separation there.

There

And I will just tell you, because you wouldnt know this,

18

because it is certainly not what is out there in public opinion and

19

the media and all that.

20

Soldier in the platoon, one of the best Soldiers in the platoon.

They all remember you as, if not the best

21

A.

Yeah.

22

Q.

I mean, I have asked every single one of them.

23

CDC: Interesting.

E0270

268

Q.

Despite how they may feel now or despite how their lives

changed because--okay, I say before the morning of the 30th, when

they discovered you missing and everything that happened since then.

Because the things that have happened to all of them since then, a

lot of it they attribute to you.

you know, who was in the turret when you were supposed to replace

Cross.

turret, you know, because you didnt replace him. And they ended up

going out on dismounted patrols looking for you and he ended sitting

Even if it was just--Cross I think,

Well, he ended up pulling like an 11 hours of guard in the

10

there.

But, I mean, within 24 hours, they had like 200 people on the

11

FOB and 30 vehicles.

12

months.

13

A.

Yeah.

14

Q.

They thought, like you said, they were expecting to leave

They did an air assault everyday for almost two

I mean, their OPTEMPO was just off the charts.

15

the FOB that day.

Instead of the leaving the FOB day, they stayed

16

there for 11 more days.

17

A.

Yeah.

18

Q.

So, there is an awful lot that happened that threw them off

19

of their game.

20

Okay.

You know, okay, but if I draw the line.

Tell me, you know, prior to him being discovered missing.

21

CDC: Midnight, yeah.

22

Q.

23

If I say,

What did you think of Bowe Bergdahl?

And they would say,

I mean, NCOs, some of the ones that you said you didnt care much

E0271

269

for, said, He is the PFC that an NCO would fight for.

just ought to appreciate their view of you.

I mean, you

A.

Yeah.

Q.

He was the kind of a Soldier--and this will be in my

report too, by the way.

I mean, this is all fair.

CDC: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Q.

I mean, you have got to tell the whole story here.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

You have got to correct the record.

And it is important.

10

NCOs saying, The PFC that we would fight for.

And then I would

11

take it one step further and I said, Was he just a good Soldier or

12

was he a team player?

13

He volunteered for duty.

14

handbook or a field manual, or studying maps.

15

for me.

16

sight and wrapped it in his t-shirt to protect it.

17

always--we went into his tent the morning that he was gone, his stuff

18

was there, dress-right-dress, in better shape than anybody elses.

19

So, that is an important part of the story.

And they would say, No, he was team player.

He spent his free time reading the Ranger
He sharpened my knife

He is the only Soldier I had that took nods or his night

His weapon was

20

A.

Yeah.

21

Q.

So, you havent had an opportunity to hear them say that

22
23

about you.
A.

E0272

I have.
Yeah.
270

Q.

So, I thought I would share that with you.

CDC: Thank you.

Q.

I think in all fairness, you should know that.

Sutton, by

the way, is a student at the University of Michigan right now and

doing very well.

A.

That is good to hear.

Q.

And he is pretty fair and balanced in his judgment.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

Maybe a little bit more so than some of the others.

10

A.

Yeah.

11

Q.

I dont want to judge others.

He is--yeah.
There is two inconsistencies

12

in our conversation today that I want to point out and I am sure the

13

professor has already picked up on them as well.

14

are having a conversation and being thorough, why not point them out?

15

I dont know that you will be able to resolve them, but it is worth

16

pointing out and having a crack at it.

17

part of your motive was you needed to do something because the

18

leadership was just going to take this in the wrong direction.

And just since we

One of them is, you were--

19

A.

Yeah.

20

Q.

But also, part of your urgency was you wanted to hurry up

21
22

and do it before the leadership changed.

A.

E0273

Yeah.

271

Q.

And there is a little bit of inconsistency there, because

you might say, Well, why not wait and let the leadership change, and

see if that doesnt make a difference.

CDC: I dont know that I would call that an inconsistency.

A.

The only leadership change was going to be the first

sergeant.

Q.

Okay.

A.

That was the only leadership that was going to change.

Q.

Okay.

10

I guess the other leadership had already changed

after the field grades and all that?

11

A.

Yeah.

12

Q.

Okay.

13

A.

The leadership changes I was talking about would be

14

Corporal Gaughan getting sergeant.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

Leadership change would have been Sergeant Leatherman and

17

Okay.

Sergeant Louis being demoted.

18

Q.

Okay.

19

A.

So, these were things that were happening----

20

Q.

Going in the wrong direction?

21

A.

Yeah.

22

Q.

All right.

23

That is fair.

The other one is, you keep

referring to World War II, the guys hitting the beach and Private

E0274

272

Ryan versus the modern day Soldier.

And in one sense you see, you

know, the unnecessary carnage and just throwing away lives.

know, throwing guys into the breach because they are playing a game

and not enough respect for the value of a life.

time, when we are not doing that now, you see that as a lot less

romantic because we are pussies or whatever.

A.

I never used that word.

Q.

Okay.

CDC: Somebody did use that word.

You

And at the time same

Somebody----

10

Q.

11

CDC: Right.

12

Q.

They didnt say that you did, but then somebody said----

13

A.

You can ask anybody who actually knows me.

14

Q.

You wouldnt use that word.

15

would be----

16

A.

I would use the word coward.

17

Q.

Yeah, that would be an offensive word.

18

Somebody said that you did.

Yeah.

I wouldnt----

I could see that.

That

So, again, they

embellished that.

19

A.

Yeah.

20

Q.

But, do you see what I am getting at?

21

A.

Yeah.

22

Q.

Because today you have described how far we have come and

23

that we dont just throw whole platoons and companies into the

E0275

273

breach, because we are trying to achieve an objective and not care

about how many people are killed.

Those were real Soldiers.

armor and our MRAPs and not really taking it to them.

A.

And yet, you also romanticize for,

And today, we are cowards in our body

Well, here is the explanation.

If you look at World War

II, you obviously saw the tactics that were being used.

Using bodies

to stop bullets, literally, or shells.

say, We are cowards, for instance, when we were at the TCP, we get

word that--well, the Afghan Police arent going into the local bazaar

If you look, you know, when I

10

because there is Taliban there at the bazaar.

11

dont do anything.

12

No.

13

to accomplish a military success as like D-Day or something like

14

that, where you are literally throwing bodies at a beach, hopefully,

15

waiting for them to run out of bullets or for some miracle to happen

16

and we got passed that first line.

17

it.

18

behind sand bags doing absolutely nothing when we are supposed to be

19

in that country doing something.

All right.

All right.

Do we call it up?

What do we do?

Does someone go investigate?

So, there is a line of being stupid and using life

You just keep throwing bodies at

There is a difference between that and sitting

20

Q.

Okay.

21

A.

As a unit.

22

Q.

Okay.

23

A.

So, there is two extremes that I am pointing out.

E0276

We

274

Q.

Okay.

A.

And when I am referencing, We shouldnt be cowards or we

should do something, we should do more than what we are doing, I am

saying that we shouldnt in one extreme.

Q.

Right.

A.

And we shouldnt be going in the other extreme.

Q.

Okay.

A.

We should be trying to find that middle ground where

we are actually moving. Now, hindsight 20/20, as I said, I admit that

10

now I understand, yes, there are certain times where certain units

11

need to hold ground.

And their job is to pull guard shift.

12

understand that now.

Back when I was a PFC, my comments were

13

annoyance, boredom, and seeing things accumulating that shouldnt be

14

accumulating. So, my comments would have been--back then they would

15

have been that.

16

Now, what I am saying is, there are these extremes that----

17

Q.

Okay.

18

A.

It is a middle ground.

19

Q.

I got it.

20

CDC: I just--my two cents.

21

I/O: Sure.

22

CDC: You are describing an effort to integrate a really

Thank you.

23

considerable number of data points over a very long period of time,

24

where there has been major technological and social change.

275

E0277

Lets

say from the early 19th Century.

am just commenting.

classic industrial era warfare, where you had two modern nation

states out to kill one and other, on the one hand.

basically lets say in the Korean War.

And then the era of

insurgency, asymmetric warfare really.

That is--that is--you know,

the Civil War was very different, except for the Mosbys Raiders and

that kind of stuff.

that was really the first industrial war where you had serious

10

I think there are differences.

I think there are differences in kind between

But, it was very different.

That ended

It was industrial--

rifled----

11

SBJ: Repeating firearms.

12

CDC: All I am--yeah, repeating firearms.

All I am saying is

13

that I think the effort of integrating, this is really addressed to

14

you, the effort to integrate the kinds of data and theoretical, you

15

know, efforts to provide a general theory of military activity have

16

challenged some of the great thinkers of the last several centuries.

17

Clausewitz, Mahan.

18

I/O: Sure.

Sure.

19

CDC: Who is the guy from Harvard?

What is his name?

20

Soldier and the State.

21

subject by people with a lot of PhDs and all that.

22
23

A.

Anyway, a lot of ink has been spilled on this

It is taking an extremely complex history over an extreme

long period of time and trying to condense it into----

E0278

The

276

CDC: It is a tough call.

It would challenge a lot of people.

I/O: But I also see another point that you are getting at is, we

now have invested a tremendous amount in force protection for units

and for individuals and yet, rather than making us less aggressive,

there is perhaps an opportunity to be more aggressive there, not so

adverse. This is an American Society thing.

our leadership and our people and how----

And this has to do with

CDC: Where we are.

I/O: What they are willing to accept in terms of casualties.

10

goes back to what I was saying, How big is the Army going to be?

11

It is up to the people.

It

12

CDC: Also, survivability.

13

I/O: Yeah.

14

CDC: In my litany, I mean, the whole question of medical care,

15

Yeah.

emergency medical care has changed dramatically since Vietnam.

16

I/O: Yeah, sure.

17

CDC: So, every piece of this is morphing.

18

I/O: Let me--why dont we do this?

19

if that is okay?

Why dont we stop for today

I dont think we need to----

20

CDC: I want to hear the rest of the sentence.

21

I/O: We dont need to come back after dinner, but I would--and I

22
23

think we can finish tomorrow and you can make your flight.
CDC: You think I can blast out of here between 9 and 9:30 maybe?

E0279

277

I/O: Yeah.

Yes.

CDC: We can start----

I/O: Can we meet at 7?

CDC: We can meet at 7.

I/O: Can you eat chow and be here by 7?

SBJ: Yes.

I/O: I am not taking Sergeant Bergdahl away from the chow hall.

You got to eat breakfast. I dont know what time does the chow hall

open?

10
11

SBJ: I have been eating at the barracks.

So, I can do that.

That is easy.

12

I/O: I mean, you got to eat.

13

SBJ: Yeah.

14

I/O: I am not going to interfere with chow.

15

CDC: Rule one.

16

I/O: It is still rule one.

17

CDC: Armies move on their stomachs.

18

I/O: It is still rule one.

19

CDC: Who was it that said that?

20

I/O: Exactly.

21

CDC: Some Frenchman.

22

I/O: So, what I would like to do is wrap up.

23

A Frenchman.

An artilleryman.
Artilleryman.

Lets meet at 7 tomorrow.

E0280

278

Break today.

CDC: Right.

I/O: We will get you out of here 9:30 at the absolute latest.

CDC: That is great.

I/O: Lets meet at 7.

minute break.

We will go for an hour.

Take a five

We will go again and we endeavor to be done.

SBJ: Okay.

I/O: Will you be satisfied with that?

Do you think that is

enough time?

tomorrow. I would rather wait to digest everything you have said here

10

I have a few more questions.

They can wait until

frankly.

11

CDC: Right.

Right.

Of course.

12

I/O: I brought photos. I brought maps.

If there is anything of

13

that stuff that I need, I will drag them out.

If we have time--

14

before we run out of time, I will show them to you anyhow, just

15

because I think that you would find them interesting.

16

SBJ: Yeah.

17

CDC: Let me say one thing, if questions occur to you, and thank

18

you for the accommodation.

19

I/O: Yeah.

20

CDC: Although, I think that unless you have got a different----

21

I/O: No.

No.

We are on track.

22

lets do it tonight too.

23

couple of hours.

E0281

Otherwise, I would say, Hey,

But, I think we can wrap up tomorrow in a

279

1
2

CDC: But, if questions occur to you as you sort of put this

puzzle together, let us know and we will get your answers.

I/O: Okay.

CDC: And we can do telephonic.

I/O: Okay.

CDC: I am going to be in the country and reachable.

Good.

Good.

Okay.

All right.

Great.

That is great.
We can get

a----

I/O: You are not going to share them with Fox News are you?

CDC: [Laughing.]

10

I/O: We have got to keep it light.

11

CDC: He is learning. He is learning.

12

I/O: You have got to keep it light.

13

CDC: For a general, right?

14

I/O: Okay.

One of the things that I would like to talk about

15

tomorrow is some of the correspondence back and forth with Monica and

16

Kayla.

17

SBJ: Okay.

18

I/O: Which are, you know, separate correspondences and so I

19

will--you know, just think about that.

20

One of the things I am trying to do, it is important for me

21

to do this is, you know, you are being truthful to me.

22

giving me facts.

23

SBJ: Yeah.

E0282

280

You are

I/O: I still need to corroborate the story.

CDC: To the extent that it is objectively verifiable.

I/O: Right. I mean, some stuff I am not going to be able to--you

know, I cant refute it, but I also cant corroborate it.

problematic.

are telling me, it is very, very helpful to you.

To the extent that I can add a confirmation to what you

SBJ: Yeah.

I/O: And to me.

That is

I mean, I dont have an agenda here.

My job

is, as I told you, get all the information, separate fact from

10

fiction.

Okay.

So, at this point, I got to treat your statements

11

greater value than I would Full.

12

them or negate them to the extent that I can.

But, I still have got to confirm

That is my job.

13

SBJ: Yeah.

14

I/O: So, that is why I want to get into a little bit of that

15

tomorrow if we can.

All right?

16

SBJ: Yeah.

17

CDC: Yeah.

18

I/O: Fair enough?

19

CDC: Yeah.

20

SBJ: Sounds good, sir.

21

I/O: Anything else you want to get off your chest before we

22
23

break for today?

SBJ: No, I think that is it.

E0283

281

I/O: Okay.

CDC: All right.

to 7 over at TDS?

So, lets plan.

I will park there and then we can walk over here.

I/O: That is fine.

SBJ: Sure.

I/O: Great.

Why dont I meet you a quarter

Okay.

Fair enough.

[The interview recessed on 6 August 2014.]

[END OF PAGE]

E0284

282

[The interview resumed on 7 August 2014.]

PERSONS PRESENT

MAJOR GENERAL KENNETH R. DAHL, INVESTIGATING OFFICER, [I/O];

MR. EUGENE FIDELL, CIVILIAN DEFENSE COUNSEL [CDC];

CAPTAIN ALFREDO FOSTER, DEFENSE COUNSEL [DC];

SERGEANT BOWE BERGDAHL, SUBJECT [SBJ];

SERGEANT FIRST CLASS CHRISTOPHER LEE, INTEL ANALYST [WIT];

STAFF SERGEANT BRITTANY RAMSEY, COURT REPORTER [CR].

I/O: This is a continuation of yesterday, so I just need you to

10

look me in the face and acknowledge that you understand everything.

11

We are continuing based on the same rules we set yesterday morning.

12

SBJ: Understood.

13

I/O: Okay.

14

We are good.

Great.

Yesterday was a very productive day; I think

that is an excellent way to describe it.

15

And as I mentioned, one of the things that I need to do now

16

is to possibly corroborate what you have told me.

17

of additional questions I want.

18

have a long list of stuff.

19

doing more talking, discovery.

20

finish up yesterday that you still want to share, I am very happy to

21

go through that first.

22

questions.

E0285

There are a couple

There is not a lot.

I mean, I dont

So, we could take some time with you

If you have got things you didnt

And then I could ask you some specific

We could take some time over the maps so we can be sure

283

that we understand, to the greatest extent possible, the routes.

then that is probably it to be honest with you.

And

So, anything that you left on the table yesterday that we

just ran out of time for?

the end of the day.

It got tight.

I know we were all tired by

CDC: No, we were ready to keep going.

I/O: Okay.

SBJ: No.

Nothing.

I/O: No?

Okay.

Okay.

Let me--we will do the maps in a little bit.

10

have got photographs to, of which, if nothing else, you will find

11

interesting, just because it will bring----

12

SBJ: Yeah.

13

I/O: Reminds you of the COP.

14

CDC: The tech is fascinating by the way, looking at those maps

15

yesterday.

16

I/O: Yeah.

17

CDC: That is a good use of taxpayer money.

18

I/O: Yeah.

19

CDC: It is scary.

20

I/O: And, frankly, the reason that they are secret isnt

21

Yeah.

To me, as a civilian, it is amazing.

necessarily because there is anything on the map.

22

CDC: No, it is the technology.

23

I/O: Exactly.

E0286

It is the capability.
284

CDC: This is not Google.

I/O: Yeah.

No, it is the technology that--so another reason for

us not to reveal or to talk much about it.

Questions by the investigating officer:

Q.

We will warm up a little bit.

There was a question I

wanted to ask you.

It is along the same lines.

I had asked you

yesterday about, Did you feel isolated by the platoon?

feel ostracized by the platoon?

there, and again, I think it is sort of what people have been fed,

Did you

I mean, there is this view out

10

you know, an open source.

And by the uniformed or people who are

11

thinking that they know what is going on and maybe dont, have given

12

people this view that, you know, they didnt like you; that they

13

pushed you off to side.

14

before I even asked you, it is just not true.

15

yesterday.

16

that is really important because if that wasnt the case, your

17

explanation makes no sense.

And like I said, from what I knew, and

And you confirmed that

I mean, you felt you were part of the team.

In fact,

18

A.

Right.

19

Q.

Why would you be going through all of this for them when

20

they hated you, didnt care for you, didnt integrate you, didnt

21

plug you in?

22

A.

E0287

Yeah.

285

Q.

And so, I am glad to hear, you know, your version of that

is consistent with their version.

explanation more consistent.

Your version makes the whole

A.

Yeah.

Q.

Another piece is your integration into the Army.

Okay.

This is another one where people have been somewhat accusatory of the

Army, of the unit, and then in some cases, unknown people, officials,

whatever, have been sort of defensive about those accusations.

yet, I am looking at it and I am not seeing any evidence of that.

And

10

And what I am getting at is, people are saying, you know, Poor PFC

11

Bergdahl was never fully welcomed into the Army, above and beyond the

12

platoon.

13

ideally integrate PFC Bergdahl into the Army at basic training or

14

AIT, or up at Alaska.

I am talking institutionally.

15

CDC: It is interesting.

16

Q.

17

CDC: I hadnt noticed.

18
19

Okay. Good.

You know, the Army did not

I hadnt seen that narrative.

Well, that is good.

That is one I hadnt noticed.

There is

a lot of other things, but that one missed me.

Q.

And that is good.

And I think that this was part of--and,

20

again, I didnt participate in it, because I wasnt on this topic for

21

the last five years.

22

the people who were working on your status and with family and

E0288

I have only been on this since mid-June, but

286

friends, you know, and that dialogue and that discussion has came up

a few times and that is where I was reading some of this.

So, what I would like to ask you is to tell me, did you

ever feel as though you didnt have enough time or there wasnt the

right mechanisms in place to integrate you into the unit?

had more time, it would have gone better?

a PFC going from basic and AIT to Alaska and NTC, and then deploying,

different than the others for some reason?

question?

Or had you

Or, was your experience as

Am I asking a good

10

A.

Yeah.

11

Q.

I will keep trying to ask it if I havent asked a good

12
13
14

question, because it is---A.

No, I think from what I am understanding, the idea is, was

there something wrong institutionally----

15

Q.

Right.

16

A.

----that didnt work for me.

17

Q.

Right.

18

A.

That didnt process--was no.

19

Like for some reason was not

working for me?

20

Q.

Right.

21

A.

I mean, the Army is going to be the Army.

22

to be like civilian life.

23

be you adapting to the Army.

E0289

It is not going

When you get into the Army, it is going to

When I got to I think it was--when I
287

got to in-processing at Fort Benning, we sat there for two weeks in-

processing and a lot of the time doing nothing.

system?

annoying sitting there doing nothing?

was annoyed sitting there doing nothing.

what it is.

I got in my platoon.

reputation is, hurry up and wait.

minutes early, you know----

Was that a good

Well, that is the way the Army had to process us.

Was it

Well, everybody that was there

But, that is the nature of

When I got to basic training, I met my drill sergeant.

We got the work done.

The Army is--the

10 minutes early.

10

Q.

Right.

11

A.

So, that is just the nature of the things.

If you are 10

Never was there

12

any point where the Army wasnt doing something specifically for me.

13

It wasnt--my case didnt happen to be some unique phenomenon----

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

----where I was missed in some way or another.

16

Q.

Okay.

So, there may have been things that could have been

17

done better for the whole group, but there wasnt anything unique to

18

your particular circumstance?

19

A.

Yeah, I mean, everybody would like to cut out the waste of

20

time or the waste of resources, or the waste of this or that.

21

is just the nature of having such like a huge group working in the

22

same level of the system.

23

So, you just have to adapt and move through it.

E0290

That

That is just going to be a part of it.

288

But, there was never

anything that was specifically, you know, a problem with me.

Everybody was--you know, we did details.

uniforms, times, schedules, work days.

We did our jobs.

We did

It was normal.

Q.

CDC: The only perturbation, just listening to Sergeant Bergdahl,

Okay.

his infection, which took him out of cycle.

Q.

Right.

CDC: That is the only thing that I have heard in that

conversation.

10

Q.

No, and that is good.

I will ask the same question. I am

11

going to ask it a little bit differently.

And I will bring that in

12

too.

13

understand this narrative that we dont agree with, but I just want

14

to be able to address it like some of these other things that we have

15

had to address.

16

the noise doesnt continue to interfere with our clarity.

17

The narrative would be, Soldier goes to basic.

So, as I am piecing together chronologies, I am trying to

Its just better to address it and put it aside so

It is new

18

leadership.

19

leadership, a little bit new environment.

20

So, you are away from that.

21

leadership.

22

some new leadership depending on how you are task organized probably

23

in some cases.

E0291

It is a new environment in an AIT, a little bit new

Some leave afterwards.

Then travel to Alaska.

New environment.

Meet new

Soon after that, NTC.

New environment.

Back to Alaska.
289

Again, maybe

Block leave.

So,

another little bit of change.

For everybody else, after block leave,

a little bit of pre-deployment prep and then deploying.

Rear Detachment because of the infection.

little bit of change in leadership.

assigned to temporarily.

perturbation, would be when you got there, as you mentioned, Gerleve

and Buetow were not there.

leader were not necessarily at Sharana when you arrived, because they

were on a mission over at FOB Salerno.

For you,

So, there is another

Who is in charge, who are you

Then catching up.

The second wrinkle,

That is your squad leader and your team

That was only a week or two I

10

think.

But, still, initially they werent there.

11

the Omna mission, which was the mission with the very significant

12

complex attack up on the hill.

13

CDC: The six-day deal.

14

Q.

15

team leader.

16

to Sharana.

17

leader.

18

to OP DUSTWUN or TCP DUSTWUN.

19

Mest.

Right.

So, you went on

That was not with his assigned squad leader and

It was with another set of leadership.

But, then back

And now you link up with your squad leader and team

And then you are at Sharana.

And then it is out to Mest or

And then back to Sharana and then OP

So, that is the narrative.

20

The narrative is there is no period of stability where the

21

leadership has the opportunity to, over a period of time, fully

22

integrate you, fully mentor you, fully indoctrinate you and develop

23

you professionally, personally, and all of that.

E0292

290

So, that is the

narrative.

perhaps arriving and your team leader was at Sharana for a week or

two, other than that, that experience was the same for your whole

cohort, not just you.

yourself amongst the cohort?

or better than the others?

dont even buy that narrative?

8
9

A.

Now, my question to you is, other than the infection and

So, let me just ask you, how would you grade

How well did you handle that?

As well

Or, frankly, you dont even buy it?

I wouldnt say I was better than everybody else.

You

I would

say that, you know, I didnt have a problem being in the right

10

uniform, at the right time, with the right equipment in any of that.

11

We might have been--in one instance at NTC where we were like getting

12

ready to leave NTC, and we had some weird like timeframe where we

13

were waiting for the plane, but then it was like the middle of the

14

night or morning that we had to prep for it.

15

asleep and even then, I woke up at the time I was supposed to wake,

16

but everybody was, you know, they were doing the whole 10 minutes

17

early and I wasnt 10 minutes early.

18

Bergdahl?

19

But, otherwise, I was a private.

And they were like, Where is

And then that kind of--that was a panic on their part.

20

Q.

Okay.

21

A.

I was focused.

22

Like I had fallen

I was just----

I wasnt a problem.

I did my best to carry

my weight and to do what I was supposed to do and to help pick up the

E0293

291

team tasks that we needed to pick up.

where--it wasnt unusual.

Q.

Okay.

Yeah.

So, there was no situation

I mean, my observation, you know, based on

what I learned before I had the chance to talk to you is that you

handled it at least as well, you know, as everybody else in that

cohort.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

And I wouldnt know enough to know if you handled it better

than the others in the cohort because there arent any other problems

10

that I am seeing from the cohort.

11

circumstances, we wouldnt be examining your response to that either.

12

So, I dont see any--I have not observed anything institutionally.

13

Again, putting this all into context, this is 2008.

14

Army had two wars going on at the same time.

15

is important to this narrative, which I dont buy.

16

understand why it has come up.

17

is for it to come up or that it came up, to be honest with you.

18

However, this was when in 2008, we had just decided that we were

19

going to increase the size of the force in Afghanistan.

20

CDC: The surge.

21

Q.

The surge, yeah.

And, again, if not for the

It is when the

And, again, the context

But, just so you

And I am not sure what the motivation

And then also into Iraq--I am sorry.

22

were going to increase into Iraq and we were going to keep it,

23

sustain it in Afghanistan, perhaps even increase it in Afghanistan.

E0294

292

We

So, what that meant was, we didnt have more brigades, more brigade

combat teams to apply.

deploying on 12-months, after 12 months at home.

25, Sergeant Bergdahls brigade, PFC Bergdahl at the time, was one of

those brigades.

narrative.

company and the battalion had been in Iraq for a year.

home, they were home 12 months and then they were in Afghanistan,

which is a very significant turn.

So, what we did was, we had units that were

And, you know, 4-

This is an important part of the unit context and

So, you know, Captain Silvino and many of the guys in the
They came

You only have 12 months at home,

10

and during that 12 months, you are training.

11

a knee and putting your feet up.

12

of time with family and friends, but you also have to adjust to a

13

completely different environment, in a different language, a

14

different culture.

15

depending on where they were fighting in Iraq and then later in

16

Afghanistan, they are going from an environment where there was a

17

more kinetic environment in terms of the way that they were fighting

18

to a more counterinsurgency type of environment.

19

mentioned, even over Thanksgiving, this unit did not take the

20

Thanksgiving break, even though they were only home for that one year

21

between, they stayed at the training center, National Training

22

Center, over Thanksgiving so that they could take advantage of the

23

ranges. I mean, that was the idea.

E0295

You are not just taking

I mean, you are taking a little bit

And, in this case, for this particular unit,

293

And I think, as you

CDC: To take advantage of the?

I/O: Of the ranges.

CDC: The ranges.

I/O: Yeah, because they had better opportunity to go to the

ranges down at the National Training Center than they had up in

Alaska and they wanted to take advantage of that.

Sergeant Bergdahl relayed to us yesterday, that that didnt

necessarily go ideally.

time.

Having said that,

But, the intent wasnt to waste peoples

The intent wasnt to keep people from being away from their

10

family deliberately just for the heck of it.

11

going to combat.

12

of new folks.

13

And although the execution wasnt, perhaps, wasnt ideal, based on

14

what you told us yesterday.

15

And it leads into the--you know, we will talk in a minute here about

16

the enlistment thing.

17

this is where the conversation about the waivers is out there also.

18

The idea was, we are

We only had 12 months at home.

We have got a bunch

Lets take advantage of the ranges here while we can.

So, that is sort of the context of this.

So, the context for the enlistment also and

How is it--in fact, Kim is also on record saying, and you

19

have heard her probably, How can the Army enlist him?

20

Coast Guard and he left the Coast Guard, so why would the Army accept

21

him?

22

the context for it, before I ask you some questions about that, this

23

was a time when the Army was trying to generate a force.

Well, there is a variety of answers to that.

E0296

294

He was in the

But just to set

So, we

talked yesterday about 28 percent or 25 percent is what you are

pulling from.

they want to join, then you are going to allow them to join.

requires a waiver, because they had previously been in the Coast

Guard and departed, you know, then if you have the opportunity to

grant the waiver, you will grant the waiver.

frankly, I dont know that you would have been able to reenlist now

because the Army is downsizing.

9
10

So, if you have somebody who is capable of joining and

If it

In other times, I mean,

SBJ: Right.
I/O: So, I dont know for sure, but it wouldnt surprise me if

11

you were to go to a recruiting station now, as you did back in 2008,

12

they would say, We are not granting waivers, because we dont need

13

to grant waivers, because I dont need to bring that many people into

14

the force.

15

CDC: Right.

16

I/O: So, that is the context.

The context was, it was a time

17

when we were trying to attract people and so we are granting more

18

waivers, we are giving signing bonuses or whatever might be.

19

Q.

Do you recall if you got a signing bonus?

20

A.

I got like $5,000 or so.

21

Q.

So, I mean the bonuses that they offered go up and down

22

based on how attractive you are trying to make it, you know, what the

23

incentives are.

E0297

Those kinds of things.

295

So, that is the context of

this question about, you know, were we generating a force so rapidly

that we were haphazard, and sloppy, and, ad hoc about fully

integrating folks in there.

of our discussion yesterday, you know, I mean I appreciate some of

what you said yesterday was, you know, We always need to be

constantly look at ourselves and making sure we are adhering to our

values and that we are doing things right.

doing after action review and lessons learned, and trying to get

better.

It is a good question for us.

And part

We are very good about

And so that is, I think, the context of it.

It is like, is

10

it something that we did wrong that we could have done better going

11

forward.

12

wasnt any major problems in terms of your integration into the Army

13

or into being accepted in the platoon.

So, having said that, I think we can set aside that there

14

A.

Yeah.

15

Q.

Okay.

And, again, this will be hard for you to recall all

16

of this.

17

of the records and--maybe I do, maybe I dont, when you enlisted into

18

the Coast Guard.

19

what you said and I will just ask you.

20

When you--I have the benefit of going back and finding some

I dont have them here, but that is okay.

I know

There was a--when you left--we mentioned yesterday

21

circumstances of your leaving the Coast Guard.

22

doctor and you believe the doctor was a psychologist or a

23

psychiatrist and this was when you had the panic attack I think you

E0298

296

You met with the

described it as.

In the record, I think you had a bloody nose at the

time and they brought you to the hospital.

Coast Guard did the right thing, put the correct reenlistment code on

there saying it is an early entry discharge.

Again, one of the notes I made yesterday when we were talking was

that you werent the only one.

yourself when you left the Coast Guard.

werent the only one leaving the Coast Guard early.

a reason why we have that early discharge and that code.

When you departed, the

It is very typical.

I mean, you were very hard on

And the note I wrote was you
I mean, there is
The

10

question is, when you came into the Army, the Army asked, on the

11

form, you check a little thing saying, Were you previously treated

12

for psychological purposes or whatever?

13

didnt refer--and then there is a note okay explaining the check like

14

on most medical forms.

15

to the Coast Guard psychological thing. [Private Health Information deleted]

16

So, my question is, why not refer to--not 2006 when you left the Coast

17

Guard, two years later after a variety of things that you explored

18

during that period that you came into the Army.

19

did you--Were you ever treated for a psychological or behavioral health

20

specialist or something like that is what the question says.

21

A.

E0299

You checked, Yes, but you

What you wrote on there wasnt in reference

For the Coast Guard.

297

The Army says, you know,

Q.

You said, Yes, I have been previously.

It didnt

specifically--the question is just more generally, Have you ever

been seen by a behavioral health specialist or a psychologist, mental

health issues something like that.

didnt refer to the 2006 Coast Guard thing.

something that happened when you were 10.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

So, that is the question.

9
10
11

You checked, Yes, but you

You referred to

Help me square that circle

there.
A.

I think I know what you are talking about and it wasnt me

who was writing it.

It was in cursive?

12

Q.

Yes.

13

A.

Yeah, that was--that would have been the recruiter who

14

wrote that in there.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

So, I didnt--yeah, it wasnt in my--I am pretty sure that

17

So, it wasnt your handwriting?

was the one that we were looking at.

18

CDC: Yeah.

That is the short answer.

19

Q.

Okay.

Okay.

20

A.

So, basically, I think I was talking to the recruiter

21

giving him information and it would have been him who was writing it

22

down in whatever blocks that he was writing it down in.

E0300

298

Q.

And then there is a statement that you make that you sign

too.

And I guess that is the question is, you know, the statement

that you wrote and signed, and that is a typed statement, you know,

and then your signature is on there.

was that a prepared statement?

Did you write that statement or

CDC: Can I see what you are----

Q.

CDC: ----if you have got a document for me.

Q.

Yeah, I am looking for that.

I am trying to find the wording for it.

Hey, Sergeant

10

Ramsey, if anybody has that quotation.

11

that I have with me.

12

Bergdahl made on his enlistment document into the Army.

13

I am looking for.

14
15

A.

I dont see here in the notes

Not the quotation, the statement that Sergeant

That is what

If you dont have it, it is just right over in the

barracks.

16

Q.

I am sure we have it.

17

CR:

Just one moment, sir.

I am getting it.

18

Q.

Okay.

Give them a minute.

Good.

Thanks.

They will dig

19

it up.

So, the general issue is, what we are trying to do is to

20

determine was there anything that--inappropriate about your

21

enlistment in the Army subsequent to your enlistment in the Coast

22

Guard.

The codes are all entirely appropriate.

E0301

299

You were in the

Coast Guard.

Army.

[The court reporter entered the room and handed documents to the

investigating officer.]

The Coast Guard discharged you.

You then joined the

Did the Army do anything wrong?

Q.

So, this one says on your medical record, In the last

seven years, have you consulted a mental health professional?

you checked, No.

Yeah, so it is No to all these answers, but this is the block

checked here.

So, this is the Army recruiting you.

And

Yeah.

So, in your medical record, In the last seven years

10

have you consulted a mental health professional, psychiatrist,

11

psychologist, counselor, et cetera, or have you consulted with

12

another health care provider about a mental health related

13

condition?

14

was when you had the panic attack.

15

[The court reporter conferred with the investigating officer.]

And you checked No, but obviously two years earlier

So, that is the question.

16

Q.

And this is the one you are saying is not your handwriting?

17

A.

Not my handwriting.

And I will be honest with you, sir,

18

the way that the paperwork was filled out at the Army recruiters, I

19

am an extremely bad speller.

20

Q.

I noticed that.

21

A.

And I am extremely adverse to--adverse to paperwork.

So,

22

when I went to the recruiters, basically I was sitting there talking

23

to him and he was writing and filling everything in.

E0302

300

Q.

Okay.

CDC: That is on that.

But, on the machine printed form, the

question is framed in a way that wouldnt pick up his having been

literally seen.

provider.

means, All right.

psychologist or something.

That is not, I think, consulting a mental health

You know, consulting a mental health provider to me,

I need a meeting with some shrink or a

A.

CDC: Hold on one second.

That is not----

When he asked me that question---The drafting of it is not calculated

10

to pick up the factual setting of a guy being separated after a panic

11

attack.

12

Q.

13

the question.

14

A.

Yeah.

15

Q.

I mean, obviously, it says here that you answered, No.

That is not for treatment purposes.

That is----

So, let me just ask you, Sergeant Bergdahl.

So, this was

16

This was the question that you were checking or he was asking you and

17

he was checking, on or the other.

18

consulted a mental health professional and then it gives examples of

19

psychiatrist, psychologist, counselor, or have you consulted with

20

another health care provider about a mental health related condition.

21

And I think what Professor Bergdahl [sic-Fidell] is alluding

22

CDC: Fidell.

23

Q.

E0303

In the last seven years, have you

What did I say?

301

to----

CDC: Bergdahl.

Q.

Oh, I am sorry. Professor Fidell is alluding to, is did

that trigger to you, They are talking about the time that I saw the

guy in the Coast Guard as I was leaving or it did not?

A.

So, what happened was, I was in the hospital bed.

just gone through all that.

Somebody comes into me.

couple of questions like, How are you feeling?

want to keep going?

triggered me thinking back to that.

I had

He asks me a

Or like, Do you

So, in my mind consulting that wouldnt have

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

Now, my recruiter, he knew about my Coast Guard discharge.

12

I gave him--I had taken my Coast Guard paperwork into him, which he

13

thought was amazing because it helped him in having to fill out more

14

paperwork.

15

no, I wouldnt have considered a guy standing [next to] me asking--a guy

16

sitting next to me in that bed asking me a couple of question and

17

then he is handing me a piece of paper saying, sign here and then

18

walking away.

19

consulting a psychologist.

20

Q.

So, I gave him that paperwork.

When he asked me that,

That, to my mind, wouldnt have triggered the idea of

Nope, and that is the question and that is fair.

And then

21

further explanation [Private Health Information deleted]

22

medication or follow-up was needed I think it says in there. And it says,

23

Resolved.

E0304

So, you didnt write that.

302

Nothing with no

Somebody else wrote that.

You told them what to write and they wrote it in there.

A.

CDC: It is also outside the time window of the question.

Q.

Yeah.

It is not seven--that is exactly right.

other statement.

you signed.

And then this is the

This is where it says--okay, this was the statement that

It was typed.
I joined the Coast Guard in January of 2006.

While in recruit

training I had a hard time adapting to change.

I had a lot going on

with things at home and I do not feel that I was prepared on my own.

10 I couldnt take care of issues at home and was able to obtain a

11 discharge to do so.

They did discharge me with a reentry code of 3L.

12 I have no ties to home anymore that would hinder my performance while

13 the military.

I have matured and know that I am prepared to go

14 into the Army.

Please do not allow my past record to prevent me from

15 coming into the Army.

So, does that sound familiar?

16
17
18

A.

Honestly, what happened was, I told the recruiter--I gave

him the story and he typed something up.

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

I didnt know what reentry code----

21

Q.

That would have been on the paperwork that you handed him

22 probably.

E0305

303

CDC: Did you tell him about the panic attack?

A.

But, I didnt type that up.

Q.

But that comment there is not inconsistent with your memory

or what we talked about yesterday I dont think either.

6
7

Yeah, he had that paperwork.

A.

From what I can remember of the day, he was doing what the

he was doing what the recruiter does; get the person in.

I was giving him information.

I told him the--my overall understanding of

10

He typed something up.

11

Q.

Okay.

He asked me what happened.

what happened.

That he typed up.

In all of that--let me turn the whole thing around.

12

In all of that, did you feel as though the recruiter did anything

13

inappropriate or was hiding, or was trying to avoid something in

14

bringing you into the Army?

15

A.

No, I think he was doing what a recruiter was supposed to

17

Q.

Okay.

18

A.

And the things he typed up was--you know, I couldnt type

16

do.

19

something as official and clear sounding like that.

20

that up.

21

Q.

E0306

I couldnt type

I would have typed up an entire blasted story.

Sure.

304

A.

So, I was there to sign the papers.

He knew I was there to

sign the papers.

as possible.

Q.

Okay.

A.

And like I said, I didnt fill out any--I have an allergy

to paperwork.

there.

filled it all out.

And I told him, Get me in to boot camp as quickly

Okay.

He was faster with the computer.

He asked me questions.

Q.

I answered.

So, he just--we sat

He typed things up.

Okay.

10

CDC: So, he asked you what happened at boot camp.

11

A.

12

CDC: Did you tell him?

13

A.

Yeah, in Coast Guard boot camp.

Yeah, because he had the paperwork in front of him.

14

he came to that, he said, So, what is this?

15

And I told him what happened there.

When

What happened here?

16

Q.

Okay.

17

A.

And he said, Well, okay, I am going to need to do this.

18

And he typed up a statement.

19

statement that he typed up.

20

read it off.

21

half a mind because I am sitting in a recruiters getting ready to

22

join the Army.

23

Q.

E0307

Yeah.

Right.

I am pretty sure that it was that

He read it off to me.

He read it off to me.

Where do I sign?
305

Yeah, I think he

You know, I am paying

He

A.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I mean, he was just--he was doing the

paperwork, going through the paperwork, asking me questions, and I

was answering them.

Q.

Okay.

A.

He was filling things out.

Q.

Okay.

I guess the very, very clear way of asking it is, he

wasnt hiding anything?

avoiding anything and you werent hiding anything?

A.

Yeah.

10

Q.

Okay.

11

He wasnt playing any games?

He wasnt

It was transparent in both directions.

knew what was going on.

Everybody

Full disclosure.

12

A.

Yeah.

13

Q.

And that is fair.

I mean, the documents arent clear

14

enough in either direction.

And we just need to confirm your view of

15

it, your feelings on it, and that helps.

16

legal paperwork and the enlistment paperwork and all the rest of

17

that.

18

was, probably Rolling Stone or Daily Beast or something.

19

the ones that keep coming up.

20

recall who it was, they might have even given a name.

21

matter of fact, it was a legal--Kim also, when you came back, you

22

said, I faked my psychological discharge out of the Coast Guard.

23

And Kim said, You dont fake anything.

And this goes off of the

And, again, this goes back to I dont know which article it

E0308

Those are

One of your friends, and I dont

306

Oh, as a

And oh, by the way, Bowe, I

read some of your writings while you were in the Coast Guard.

was pretty scary stuff.

A.

That

So, help me square that part of it as well.

What you are dealing with there is a young mans ego.

The

idea of failing something because I wasnt capable of it--see,

because the way I portrayed myself to Kim and everybody else was, I

could take care of myself. And I was a Soldier.

with high pressure situations.

failing a boot camp is like saying, you know, obviously you are not

capable of being that type of person.

And I could deal

So, from that perspective, you know,

So, that answer came from a

10

young mans ego talking to people who didnt know the actual

11

situation.

12

And, you know, it was--Kim was right.

13

that, but you know, a young man, I didnt want--one, it didnt sit

14

well with me that I failed that.

15

more closer to being a family than anything else, being seen by these

16

people on the one thing that has kind of been my individual

17

separation and that thing that nobody else could do, to be seen as an

18

actual failure in that was, you know, didnt sit well with me either.

They werent there.

They have no proof of anything.

You dont fake something like

And to be seen by my, you know,

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

So, I am afraid there was a little----

21

Q.

So, you didnt fake it?

22

A.

I didnt fake it.

23

Q.

You told Kim you did and she didnt buy it anyhow?

E0309

307

1
2

A.

Yeah, she didnt buy it anyhow, because you know, she is

Kim.

CDC: She has got your number at some point.

A.

Yeah, pretty much.

Q.

Okay.

A.

So, yeah, like I said, that is a young mans ego trying to-

Q.

Is there, and I am not going to pry into matters that

7
8
9
10

---

arent important, but let me ask you about the comment about the
[Private Health Information deleted]

11

A.

Yeah.

12

Q.

Is there anything that is germane about that in terms of,

13

you know, when we started early yesterday morning, you said, You

14

have got to start long before I join the Coast Guard to understand

15

all of this story.

16

And if not, we dont need to address it.

No.

Is there anything there that is germane to it?

17

A.

That was a----

18

CDC: I am not going to instruct Bowe not to get into this.

19

are trying to answer every question, so we will answer every

20

question.

21

make an objection to it.

22

Q.

E0310

We

I am sorry you asked that question, but I am not going to

Okay.

Let me----

308

1
2

CDC: The question is--you built into it to the way you put it,
is there anything germane, in your opinion.

Q.

CDC: Is that fair game?

Q.

Can I rephrase it?

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

6
7
8
9

CDC: Is there anything germane, in your opinion, to your

military service concerning that [Private Health Information Deleted]
or whatever?

10

A.

No.

11

Q.

Okay.

12

A.

No.

13

Q.

It is a fair answer to a better phrased question.

14

CDC: That is why I get the big bucks.

15

Q.

Military----

That is a fair answer to a better phrased question. And

16

that is why I started out the way I did.

17

I am fact-finding here.

18

need to know stuff that is not relevant, that is not germane. And I

19

dont need to dig deeper.

20

I dont need to--you know,

I am separating fact from fiction.

I dont

And that is going back quite a ways.

CDC: And all true, and part of the tape that is running in my

21

own mind is, your report, I imagine will be classified.

22

think you were asked to do an unclassified.

23

Q.

24

CDC: But, the country leaks like a sieve.

309

E0311

It will be an unclassified.

Well, no, I

Q.

Yeah, absolutely.

CDC: And I just--you know, I am very-----

Q.

CDC: ----mindful of that.

Q.

CDC: He is a young man.

Q.

Sensitive.

And I am too.

That is right.

unclassified stuff.

sensitive stuff.

And I am too.
He has got a whole life to live.

That is right.

Yeah.

There is classified stuff.

There is

And then there is

And I am mindful of that as well.

We will move on.

10

The answer to the question was, No. And I am satisfied with that

11

and we will move on.

12

Okay. So, now what I want to talk a little bit about, as I

13

mentioned yesterday, you know, some of the e-mails, communications,

14

whatever they were, Facebook posts back and forth with Kayla and then

15

also with Monica.

Lets talk about the ones with Kayla.

16

A.

Okay.

17

Q.

So, walk me through the, if you would, communication you

18

wrote back to Kayla and you said, Plans are developing.

19

military or somebody comes to the house, dont let your mom get

20

upset.

21

A.

Yeah.

22

Q.

Okay.

23

If the

Do you know which one I am talking about?

Just walk me through that.

was a few weeks--I think it was early June.

E0312

310

And I think that that

So, it might have been

about three weeks before you were found missing.

understand what was going on there.

A.

So, help me

The actual plan that I carried out hadnt started forming

at that point; however, I had started picking up on the fact that

something was going to be needed to be done and I was going to have

to do something that was unusual.

going to do something unusual, then worst case scenario would be

through my running the scenarios and simulations in my mind, would be

something happening to the point that, you know, covering all bases

And I could see that, if I was

10

basically saying, you know, if there is a--if something happens, then

11

of course, family and friends are going to be, you know, talked to

12

for one reason or another.

13

it was, was me trying to very lightly prepare my loved--people that I

14

love for a possible shift in suddenly people are calling their house

15

saying, you know, This is such and such and we need to talk to you

16

about Private Bergdahl.

17

know, as much of a loner as I am or somebody who is going to act in

18

a--you know, because when I got to Afghanistan, my idea was, This is

19

what I am doing.

20

in the military zone.

21

that might get me killed, I am not thinking--when I got to

22

Afghanistan, I stopped thinking about America basically.

23

something--if I have to get a mission done, then that means risking

E0313

I didnt know why.

But, basically, what

So, it was the--because as much as, you

Dont worry about back at home.

Your actions here

In other words, if I am going to do something

311

Because if

my life, the last thing that I need to be, you know, is having that

hesitation in my mind because I have--my head is back at home.

Q.

Okay.

A.

But, this was something different. And it didnt sit well

with me to just suddenly drop them.

everything is fine and the next moment, bam, something happens and

they are just sitting there with the wind knocked out of them going,

What happened?

Like one moment they know

So, I got a feeling that something had to be done.

And by

10

me doing something, obviously, out of character than what a private

11

should be doing, is going to create some kind of controversy.

12

so, that was the prep.

13

something is in the wind, something is unusual.

14

You know, just to get their mindset kind of--put a question in their

15

mind so that they are starting to think, you know, What is going on

16

so that when something does happen, they are going to be like, well,

17

you know, they are prepared for it.

18

plan that I actually carried out, hadnt come into full theory or

19

full--it hadnt come into my head at that point.

20

that something was up.

Trying to prepare them [for] that, you know,

It might change.

But, like I said, the actual

21

Q.

Okay.

22

A.

And that I was looking at things.

23

And

I only had an idea

And I was going, either

it was me going into the commanders office and telling him, This is

E0314

312

messed up and you cant do this or it was me doing something else

that was going to cause some kind of controversy.

Q.

Okay.

So, in running the scenarios and the simulations,

you didnt have a detailed plan yet, but that early on, you were

thinking, It could turn out with one of these options.

6
7
8
9

A.

It could mean me going on strike and saying, I am not

doing anything until something happens.

Q.

Okay.

All right.

And then imaging that could result in

somebody going back to----

10

A.

Yeah.

11

Q.

And let me ask you, why would they go to Kim?

12

A.

It was worst case scenario.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

A.

She was in the paperwork as my God mother.

15

financial, you know, the insurance and all that.

16

and like the death.

17

Q.

Death gratuity.

18

A.

Gratuity, yeah.

She had certain

The life insurance

So, she was in the paperwork.

So thats

19

typical detective work is to hit the people--if something happens, go

20

to the people who were immediately surrounding him or who was

21

immediately connected to him and talk to them .

22

Q.

Okay.

23

A.

So that was the thinking there.

E0315

313

Q.

Okay.

A.

It was just worst case scenario, what if something gets out

of control?

What if something happens?

Q.

Right.

A.

What if I do something that they want to go, Well, we need

to understand what kind of person this is.

go?

Where are they going to

Theyre going to do background checks.

Q.

Right, okay.

A.

Theyre going to go back to the people.

10

Q.

She was not your primary next of kin, though, however?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

That was your parents, right?

13

A.

That was my parents.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

My parents, that was different because, honestly, I have

And the simulations and scenarios----

16

issues with my parents and the way I grew up from the way they raised

17

me, so I have issues there.

18

were going to feel if suddenly they were, you know, dropped into the

19

middle of things.

20

talked about yesterday, the last email I sent to them.

21

Q.

E0316

So that--I was desensitized to how they

I prepped them by sending them that email that we

Right.

314

1
2

A.
something.

That was kind of the conscience of I should send them

So I sent them that email.

Q.

Okay.

A.

I gave them the general feeling of how everything had built

up and how things were--I only had so much time before I had to get

back to duty so I had to compress everything into one email, which is

why its so vague and so rather--in order to understand that email,

you have to understand the context of it and where I was coming from

and what I was thinking at the time, which is why it was a personal

10

email.

11

Q.

Sure, right.

12

A.

And to somebody who was going to read it and go, Okay.

13

Now, if they want an explanation on that, theyre going to have to

14

get the explanation from me.

15

published so that the entire nation can suddenly start using their

16

imaginations to fill in all the details.

You know, it wasnt meant to be

17

Q.

Right.

18

A.

And Rolling Stone is taking little excerpts----

19

Q.

Right.

20

A.

----and using it for their own agenda.

21

Q.

Okay.

22

A.

It was a personal email that I was trying to tell them

23

something is up, somethings happening because this is the situation

E0317

315

compressed into a tiny email of things are messed up, I have to do

something about it and then theyre going to get a phone call saying,

By the way--you know, they could easily get that because that email

that I sent to them was like the day before I went out to the TCP.

Q.

Right, yeah.

A.

So I knew what I was going to do, what I was going to do.

So I was thinking, Good grief, how soon are they going to call up

the DUSTWUN.

the way, your sons missing in the battlefield.

Theyre going to call up my parents and say, Oh, by

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

You know, that could be within hours. I dont know what

12
13
14

theyre going to--I dont know what the protocol is.

Q.

Okay.

So the note back to Kayla in early June to Kim was

more vague because you hadnt developed your plan yet?

15

A.

Yeah.

16

Q.

The one to your parents was----

17

A.

More detailed.

18

Q.

Yeah, although it was vague for somebody who wasnt your

19

parents reading over your shoulder.

20

A.

Yeah.

21

Q.

For your parents, it was detailed enough that they had a

22
23

pretty good idea.

A.

E0318

Yeah, red flags would start going up.

316

Q.

Do you recall what your dads response was?

A.

I never heard.

Q.

You never got his response.

A.

Like that night I wrote that email was when we were

I never got his email.

prepping and leaving.

Q.

Right.

A.

I never got the email back.

Q.

You saw it in the Rolling Stone article?

A.

Yeah.

10

Q.

And he said, Follow your conscience.

11
12
13
14
15

Or I dont know, I

think he did say that.

A.

Yeah, it said, Follow your conscience and surround

yourself by likeminded people.

Q.

Right, yeah.

Which would be an indication that he

understood your message.

16

A.

Yeah, he understood where I was coming from.

17

Q.

Okay.

Thats fair.

And not only is that fair and I

18

appreciate the explanation of those, I also appreciate the context

19

that youre putting it in.

20

theres a lot of emails that fly back from folks overseas that

21

theyre not intended to be public and scrutinized in the way that

22

they are.

23

corroborate the story you told me yesterday.

E0319

I mean, again, we mentioned yesterday

Its important for my purpose because Im trying to

317

A.

Yeah.

Q.

And I think that that helps.

those in context.

also where you were talking about money.

protect money.

Both of those help me to put

I think there was a n element in Kims, I believe,

You know, wanting to

What money were you talking about there?

A.

That would have been like my paycheck money.

Q.

Okay.

my pay?

A.

So and you were thinking whats going to happen to

Yeah, I was thinking, Im about to go head to head with

10

the Army command.

One of the things they can do is take my money

11

from me.

12

however, its kind of unnecessary to go to the full extent of just

13

losing everything.

So it was just like Im going to sacrifice myself here,

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

So it was just kind of--as well as Im also, you know, back

16

in those days I was very paranoid of systems, computer systems.

17

having my money in a bank where I didnt have any control over it,

18

wasnt very comfortable with it.

19

control over it because shes physically in the country.

20

I left Alaska I had tried to set up something where there was an

21

automatic transfer from my bank account into Kims bank account.

22

Q.

E0320

It was more of a--having Kim in

Okay.

318

Even before

So

1
2

A.

Because I think at that point it was Washington Mutual that

had basically collapsed or had to be taken up by another bank.

CDC: Yeah, the savings and loan.

A.

So with that in mind, I didnt like the idea of Im going

to Afghanistan, my Bank of America is the one that has all my money

automatically deposited to it.

Q.

Okay.

A.

So my thinking before I even left the country was if I

could use automatic bill pay to pay Kim, to basically remove money

10

from my bank account so if something did happen, my money, all of my

11

money wouldnt be, I dont know what, lost or caught up in something

12

else.

13

bank systems, computer systems.

14

technology.

15

getting into my plan is it was another thing that the Army could do

16

is stop or take my pay.

17

exact ins and outs of what they could do or couldnt do.

18

the gist of it that if you get an Article 15, they could do

19

corrective, extra duty, take your pay, demote you and things like

20

that.

So that was more of a longer running--one, Im paranoid about

Im not comfortable about

And two, it was another, you know, when I started

Like I said, I was a PFC, I didnt know the

21

Q.

Okay.

22

A.

So that was the thinking behind that.

E0321

319

I just had

Q.

Okay.

On that same line of thought, there was one of your

platoon mates and I cant remember if it was Coe or Cross, it was one

of them who made the statement you had told them that you joined the

Army, you know, to protect your sister and to provide money for your

sister, resources for your sister.

sister.

And he kept saying, Your little

A.

Yeah.

Q.

And I said, His sisters not little.

9
10
11

His sisters older.

I mean, Skys a few years older than you if Im not mistaken.

A.

Yeah, she is.

What I was referencing was a very personal

matter and it had nothing to do with my actual blood family.

12

Q.

Okay.

13

A.

It had everything to do with not my sister.

14

Q.

Okay.

15

A.

And not my family but somebody else that I had kind of

16

taken it upon myself to help out.

So thats where--so when I was

17

talking to those guys, whenever I talked about my sister, because me

18

and my sister, my older sister, my blood sister, we dont have the

19

best of relationship.

20

Q.

Okay.

21

A.

Because one, she was older and just because of the way we

22

grew up.

23

talking to these guys, my friends, and I was talking about some of

E0322

There wasnt a good connection there.

320

So whenever I was

the intimate reasons of why else I joined the Army was because I had

this, what I would consider to be not my blood sister, but my real

kindred spirit sister.

I took it upon myself to help her.

Q.

So he interpreted that as your younger sister.

A.

Because they didnt know my family life.

Q.

Right, right.

A.

They just went off of what I was willing to let them know

about.

issues except, you know, what I felt a good connection with, which

10
11

And when it came to family, I wasnt talkative about those

would have been what I perceived as my little sister.

Q.

The pre-deployment paperwork that you sorted out before you

12

left, DD 93 and all that kind of stuff where you have to elect whos

13

going to receive your death gratuity, whos going to receive your pay

14

and allowances, whos the person whos authorized to determine

15

disposition of the remains and whats called the PADD and all that

16

kind of stuff, and that helps the Army to identify whos the primary

17

next of kin, whos secondary next-of-kin.

18

complicated because Kim is on there but shes not primary next of kin

19

or secondary next-of-kin and also not a legal guardian.

And then this becomes

20

A.

Yeah.

21

Q.

And I think the Army kind of sorted through all of that.

22
23

The way you had it on there originally was you split the---A.

E0323

Fifty-fifty split of the $400,000 life insurance.

321

Q.

Between your--I think the death gratuity went to Kim.

A.

Kim, yeah.

Q.

Your pay and allowance was split between your mom and your

dad, I believe.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

And then Kim was the person authorized disposition as an

other is how I think it was described.

Some of those forms,

regulations and policies have kind of been adjusted since then.

A.

Yeah.

10

Q.

But that was your intentions, that was clear and that was

11

your intentions at the time?

12

A.

Yeah.

And the reason why all that paperwork would have

13

been more or less a mess was because I had no idea what I was doing.

14

The person who was filling out the paperwork didnt tell me anything.

15

They just said, Well, who do you want to leave this to? Or Who do

16

you do want to leave this to?

17

I should leave that to them.

18

was.

19

serious candidate in my paperwork, if she needed to be put here or

20

put there.

And in my mind, I said, Okay, well,

I didnt know what the official thing

I didnt know if I needed for Kim to be seen as more of a

I didnt know any of that.

Nobody told me any of that.

21

Q.

Okay.

22

A.

I was just--people suddenly--I was sat down at a desk,

23

somebody said, What do you want to do with your life insurance, and

E0324

322

I was like, What life insurance?

talking about?

I dont know.

What are you

Q.

Right.

A.

Well, who do you want to leave this to?

dont know.

I was like, I

I had to make a split choice decision.

CDC: Whatever.

A.

Nobody explained to me and at the same time Im going when

youre talking about death gratuity, youre talking about what

happens when I die, when I die, Im not going to have--if I die, its

10

not my problem after that.

You know, I can only do so much here but

11

being a cocky young man, it was like, Im not going to die.

12

Q.

Okay, so now youve redone all that paperwork.

13

A.

Yeah.

14

Q.

Okay, did it go better the second time?

15

A.

Probably not.

16

CDC: [Laughs]

17

Q.

18
19

You didnt pay any more attention the second time than you

did the first time?

A.

I tried to.

I tried to.

But it was like I was sitting

20

there and the guy who I was sitting with, his computer was doing some

21

really weird things.

22

there trying to figure things out and Im trying to explain.

23

then at the same time unfortunately Im looking at this going, Am I

E0325

I dont know what it was.

323

So we were sitting
And

going back to war?

gonna--you know.

paperwork.

to do and hes probably not hearing me exactly right and everything

and then theres something wrong with DEERS and it just turned into a

big mess.

differently but it probably is the same state of mess.

8
9
10

Q.

Am I going to have to worry about dying?

Am I

And just, as I said, I have an allergy to

So with the computer and with me trying to tell him what

So I think it turned out roughly--it turned out

Yeah, okay.

All right.

So let me just encourage you

completely---CDC: You better go back to personnel after this meeting and

11

check your----

12

Q.

I want you to.

I mean at some point, you might want to

13

say, Let me take a few minutes.

You know, tell your chain of

14

command, Id like to take a look at my DD 93 and Id like to

15

understand the elections that Ive made and confirm that Ive made

16

the choices that I want to make.

17

A.

Yeah.

18

Q.

I mean, Id tell you the same thing, Captain Foster.

19

need to pay attention to that paperwork.

20

confusing.

It is a little bit

21

A.

Yeah.

22

Q.

Sometimes theres people standing in line.

23

as much time.

E0326

You

They dont take

But double back when youve got the time, when theyve
324

got the time.

Listen to them.

And make sure you understand it and

make the right elections.

the right elections the first time.

And Im not implying that you didnt make

A.

Check.

Q.

But you should check it.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

And the reason its important is because you go back----

CDC: Because the food in the food court is not so--[laughs].

Q.

I mean, its important.

Because it is important.

It really is important.

I mean, I

10

unfortunately have done a lot of funerals, especially in the last ten

11

years or so.

12

follow certain protocols based on those elections.

And when you go to a funeral, the government has to

13

A.

Yeah.

14

Q.

And thats not the time to be sorting stuff out between

15

families that have issues.

16

A.

Yeah.

17

Q.

And its very, very difficult.

So thats one reason.

And

18

the other reason is it does sort out, kind of, the money part of it.

19

So it is important.

20

things have changed.

21

you filled it out more recently some of the policies have changed to

22

actually address some of--theyve opened the aperture so you can make

E0327

What I will do, though, is to go back--those

I mean, since you filled it out in 2008 till

325

better elections, more refined elections.

draconian.

CDC: Yeah.

Q.

5
6
7

It used to be fairly

It was a little bit too traditional so it didnt allow for

individual circumstances.
CDC: Did they go through this drill with you as a part of the
reintegration program?

A.

I dont know.

Q.

And it may not have even happened until Im guessing--it

10

certainly happened when you arrived at ARNORTH.

I mean, the patch

11

youre wearing now, by the time you put that patch on or soon

12

thereafter, your new chain of command would have asked you to fill

13

out a new DD 93.

14

paperwork is straight.

15

make you pay attention.

So all right, Sergeant Bergdahl, make sure your

Thats kind of the bottom line here.

16

A.

Yeah.

17

Q.

But we can ask you a second time anyhow.

18

A.

Ill double check.

19

Q.

It is important.

Communications back to Monica and one of

20

them said, I think it might have been to Monica.

21

thats the one that says, Im done compromising.

22

A.

E0328

I cant

Im not sure if

I did say Im not going to be able to----

326

Q.

Do you recall communications back to Monica and can you

tell me what those were and again, were those the result of

simulation and running the scenarios or what were you alerting her to

or thinking out loud, you know?

A.

Monica was--she was on the same lines of Kim and Kayla and

all those.

Because Kayla and I had that connection.

But the

difference was a girlfriend is going to be different than, you know,

like a family.

what I could see was if I did something that could easily get me put

So with Monica it was difficult for me because from

10

in the stockade, what would happen is I wouldnt be able to see

11

Monica.

12

knew I had mid-tour leave coming up and I knew my tour in 12 months

13

would be over and I would be able to get back to Monica.

14

this struggle where I had to make a choice.

15

Monica at a time that I knew I was going to get there.

16

put Monica on hold and say, That doesnt matter.

17

And do something that could very easily wind me up in stockade or,

18

you know, in a huge mess.

19

to send her anything because the idea of sending her something was

20

confirming that I was turning my back on her and going to do

21

something else.

22

my letters to her in a more calmer but like I was trying to tell her

23

that I had duties that I had to uphold certain ideas that, you know,

Or I could keep playing along and keep my head down and I

E0329

So I had

I could go back to
Or I could

This does matter.

So with Monica it was like I didnt want

So I tried to, from what I remember, I tried to word

327

Army life changes.

There are certain things that happen.

But at the

same time, I wasnt trying to scare her.

know, send up warning flags with her because I think another thing

was because she was my girlfriend, shes going to be a little more

sensitive to me sending back letters that were saying, you know,

throwing up warning signals.

And I wasnt trying to, you

And she might react badly to them.

Q.

Okay.

A.

I do recall that one of the letters I sent back to her was

basically saying, Hey, if something happens, help my mom out.

Go

10

take care of my mom.

Because I still had that duty towards my mom

11

because my mom is more of an emotional, very sensitive type.

12

not like my dad.

13

so that was probably the hardest part was having to say Im going to

14

put Monica, my personal--because a girlfriend means a lot to me and

15

it always has.

16

just a very brief meeting and we shared some good conversation or

17

something like that, theres going to be that connection with a

18

possible partner.

Hes very logical, a very hard person.

Shes

So it was--

Any girl that Ive had an interest in, even if it was

19

Q.

Sure.

20

A.

Thats going to be different than with--so with Monica it

21

was extremely hard to write those letters because it was basically

22

recognizing what I was going to actually do and what I was going to

23

have to sacrifice.

E0330

I could make it through deployment.

328

I knew I

could make it through deployment as long as I didnt step on a mine.

I could get through mid-tour leave.

months or actually, because I deployed like 3 months late, 9 months.

So I was right there and I could

problem was the choices I was making wasnt for myself.

never been a person to make choices based on my own personal comfort.

Ive always been a person who has to base--the point of the Samurai

Code of Bushido, which is the Honorable Code of Bushido, the point of

those codes, the point of the ethics is that you uphold them over

And then I could get past the 12

go back to Monica.

10

personal want or personal, you know, comfort.

11

any more easier.

12

my back on her and that didnt set right with me.

13

warn her.

14

sent back to her.

But the
And Ive

But it doesnt make it

So in order for me to do what I did, I had to turn

But I still had to

So I dont--honestly, I dont remember all of the emails I

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

But I just remember it was extremely hard to write them.

17

It was very difficult to try and word them in a way that I was trying

18

to convey that something might happen.

19

to happen is because of ethical issues, I have to take a stand for

20

something.

21

goal that Im trying to create.

22

with my life, bigger, you know, go further.

E0331

Its a duty.

And the reason why its going

Its a personal motto or a personal life

Im trying to do something better

329

Im trying to tell her

this but in so many words that isnt exactly, Hey, this is what Im

going to do.

Q.

Okay.

A.

You know, Im also aware of the fact that Im on a

government monitored website.

So I cant--obviously, theres going

to be things that if I say, Well, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Q.

Right.

A.

Someones going to pick up on that anyhow.

Q.

Because youre writing from the internet cafe.

10

A.

Yeah, Im writing from the internet cafe.

11

Q.

Okay, okay.

12

A.

So all the messages back are going to be very vague.

13

Theyre going to be worded in a very loose but kind of specific

14

terms.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

So theyre not going to--if you read the letters theyre

17

not going to really make any sense other than the fact that theyre

18

vague and theyre trying to convey to the person reading them a

19

feeling more or less.

20

Q.

Okay.

And I know in one of them, and I dont think it was

21

to Monica, I think it might have been to Kayla or Kim where you

22

started writing in code.

23

A.

E0332

Yeah.
330

Q.

Was that in the internet cafe.

A.

Yeah, the internet cafe.

Q.

So then you mentioned a secure line.

So thats you

referring to Im not on a secure line because Im in the internet

cafe.

A.

Yeah, internet cafe.

Q.

So this is government provided Wi-Fi.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

Or whatever it was.

10

A.

Yeah.

11

Q.

Okay.

Did you have a mid-tour leave already scheduled?

12

mean, when you got there do you recall when you were going to take

13

your mid-tour leave?

14

A.

It was going to be towards the end of the month, so

15

probably within the last, like if I remember correctly it was going

16

to be like the last couple of months of the tour.

17

Q.

Okay.

18

A.

So I deployed three months late so it was probably going to

19

be three months or four months, five months down the road.

20

Q.

Yeah, okay.

21

A.

But it was right there.

I was going to go on mid-tour

22

leave, I was going to come back and then wed be getting out of the

23

country.

E0333

331

Q.

Right.

A.

Everybody was like, Well, thats the best tour to have,

thats the best mid-tour leave to have because you leave, then you

come back and we just leave the country.

Q.

Yeah, right.

A.

You know, so it was at the end.

Q.

Right, so you would have been one of the last ones to

Because I deployed late.

take----

A.

Yeah.

They bumped me up.

10

Q.

Okay.

All right.

11

A.

It was far down the road but it was because I deployed

12

So it was pretty far down the road.

three months late, left nine months of the deployment.

13

Q.

Right.

14

A.

Id already spent up to the end of June to three months, so

15

it was right there.

16

Q.

Right.

17

A.

I could go back, see Monica, then come back here for only a

18

couple more months and then back to Monica.

19

was like [difficult]----

20
21

Q.

When did you see Monica last?

So you can see why it

Did you see Monica when you

were home on mid-tour or after basic training or?

22

A.

No, Monica I didnt get to see her before I left.

23

Q.

Okay.

E0334

332

1
2
3
4

A.

She was down in Idaho, I was up in Alaska and unfortunately

it just didnt work out.

Q.

Okay.

Good, that helps.

Theres a couple of your emails

or writings you refer to Jack.

A.

Jack.

Q.

Jack.

CDC: Have you got those handy?

A.

Jack.

Q.

Yeah, if we have any, well talk to you.

10

CDC: Yeah.

11

Q.

It may refresh his recollection.

If we have any of the emails with Jack on them or I dont

12

know if they were emails or journals.

You werent writing to Jack,

13

you were writing about Jack so it might have been journal stuff.

14

A.

Yeah.

15

Q.

And its in those same lines of John Galt, you know?

16

A.

Oh, John Galt [laughs].

17

Q.

And that might be where you were saying, Im done

18

Because I dont know.

compromising, Where is John Galt?

19

A.

20

CDC: Lets not get into politics, please.

21

Q.

22

Do you know the----

Well, you made a few references to Jack and I didnt know

if there was a Jack or if Jack was a character in one of the books or

E0335

333

one of the movies or in a video game.

games, I dont think, or not?

3
4
5

A.

But you dont play video

I used to when I was a kid, but after I started working and

being out on my own I couldnt justify it.

Q.

Okay.

I was trying to understand who Jack was, honestly.

I mean, before I had an opportunity to talk to you.

CDC: You dont know who Jack is [laughs]?

Q.

I was hoping you would tell me.

figure out who--honestly, I was trying to figure out whos Jack,

10

whos John.

11

Shrugged.

Im reading about John Galt.

Im trying to understand.

Im reading about Atlas

It was important.

12

A.

It sounds like journal pages.

13

Q.

Yeah.

14

A.

Is what it sounds like.

15

Because, I was trying to

And if it was the journal pages, I

have a tendency of putting names to ideas.

16

Q.

Okay.

17

A.

Or names to feelings.

18

Q.

Okay.

19

A.

More or less, so Id have to actually--there was never a

20

Jack in my platoon.

21

Q.

Okay.

22

A.

And there wasnt, unless it was a temporary nickname I was

23

giving a friend, I dont know any Jacks.

E0336

334

Q.

Okay.

Okay, okay.

A.

So I wouldnt be able to tell you.

Q.

Its not important.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

Its not important.

Thats all I need to know is its not

important so I dont need to worry about.

digging up whatever it was we read about Jack somewhere.

looked at, just as a side note, I actually went and looked at--the

reason I was asking about--oh, here we go.

10

notes.

So dont worry about

Okay.

It says, We dont have any of those.

11

CDC: [Laughs] So much for that.

12

Q.

I went and

So heres my
So never mind.

I was actually looking at a game called Bio Shock.

13

ever remember playing that?

14

that would have been like between Coast Guard and Army years.

Do you

I think it came out in like 2007 or so

15

A.

Yeah, Id stopped playing video games at that point.

16

Q.

If youre interested, you might be into it.

I mean, Im

17

not a video game person.

18

understand some of the background because I didnt have the benefit

19

of talking to you earlier and I was digging into that.

20

protagonist in the video game, the original Bio Shock that came out

21

thats pretty consistent with the John Galt politics and all that.

22
23

A.

But in researching all this, trying to

Well, the John Galt doesnt actually--when I mentioned John

Galt, its not referencing politics.

E0337

And theres a

What its referencing is the

335

fact that in Atlas Shrugged John Galt, his mission is to end,

basically, the system.

world.

Im going to stop this.

He said Im going to stop the engine of the

Now, what I was referencing when I referenced John Galt was,

That was the point.

Q.

Okay.

A.

Im going to stop this engine that--from where I was

standing, I was seeing what was going on.

Q.

Right.

A.

I was seeing the--like, in John Galt, if you read Atlas

10

Shrugged, it was the authorities who were ruining the country.

11

John Galt, this nobody whos just a really brilliant scientist sets

12

out to get them at their own game and stop the engine of the world,

13

which in Atlas Shrugged would be communism taking over the country.

14

And basically what it is, is John Galt is a capitalist.

15

in you have the right to make money by hard work and everything that

16

you do belongs to you.

17

directly against communism and promoting capitalism.

18

about to stop the communists, basically, communist supporters by

19

stopping the engine of the world at their own game.

20

reference, Who is John Galt?

21

book, the entire book.

22

Q.

E0338

He believes

So its directly--Ayn Rand wrote the book

So John Galt is

So when I

Because thats the key word in the

Everyone asks----

Over and over again, yeah.

336

And

A.

----Who is John Galt?

Im referencing the fact that the

reason why that quote came about was because John Galt, at the very

beginning, where he saw it happening, he saw communists coming, he

saw the corruptness of the system coming, he walked out and said,

Im going to stop this engine.

world.

like the puzzle, the way everything fits so smoothly.

resonated with me.

Im going to stop the engine of the

Im a very mechanically inclined person.

I like engines.

So it

Q.

Okay.

10

A.

So when I reference John Galt, its basically this engine

11

that I see going on, this corrupt, these people abusing their power,

12

the commanders who are stepping out of their bounds.

13

doing what they should be doing as leaders.

14

Im going to stop this engine.

They are not

That was the reference.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

Because John Galt basically--in the end of the book, he

17

basically sacrifices himself.

18

people who want to kill him and at the very end of the book they end

19

up torturing him before his allies, basically, his friends, have to

20

save him.

21

to allow the whole closure, to allow the engine to completely come to

22

a grinding halt.

E0339

He literally hands himself over to the

But he didnt save himself.

He had to sacrifice himself

And then it was all the people that he sacrificed

337

himself for that had to pick up and it was their choice to save him.

Right.

So he set out to sacrifice himself to save them.

Q.

Sure.

A.

And in the end, you cant save the entire world.

You have

to let the world save itself.

All you can do is tip the first domino

and then let everybody else, if they have the ability, to pick

themselves up and fight for themselves.

my reference to John Galt is the fact that it just resonated with me

and it was to stop this engine.

You can only go so far.

So

10

Q.

So it was an inspiration of sorts?

11

A.

Yeah.

12

Q.

So theres some pretty strong parallels between that and

13

the story you told me yesterday.

14

A.

Yeah.

15

Q.

Except John Galts a fictional character and its a novel.

16

CDC: [Laughs]

17

Q.

18

CDC: Its the U.S. Army

19

Q.

20

engine.

21

A.

No.

22

Q.

Okay, and the consequences are different, you know, than

23

Okay.

Bowe Bergdahls not a fictional character.

And the engine youre referring to is not a fictional

so----

E0340

338

1
2

A.
the world.

3
4

But from a young mans perspective who was out to change

Q.

I understand.

No, I understand.

No, that helps a lot.

That helps a lot.

A.

Hindsight is 20-20.

Q.

I dont know who Jack is and I dont care who Jack is, but

that is all very helpful.

A.

Yeah.

Q.

And it is, so I got it.

Okay.

10

else do I have here?

11

Okay.

12

and then maybe we take a look at the maps.

13

I want you to--and well be done on time.

Let me think, what

We talked about that and I appreciate that.

Im going to ask you one question.

14

Good.

Well take a quick break

Ive got some markers and
Well be done on time.

Who else can I--and again, one of the things Im doing

15

today is trying to corroborate your story.

16

know, the facts, the scenario that youre laying out for me.

17

else can I talk to?

18

there anything else I can do that would--because Ive been at this

19

for 52 days, 53 days and a great deal of what I have learned and

20

discovered, I can overlay and support some of what youre telling me.

21

Some of it I never imagined before.

22

go, somebody I can talk to?

Is there something Im missing, I guess?

23

Its a very open question.

But help me help you, I guess, is the--is

E0341

How do I confirm, you

Who

I mean, is there anybody else I can talk to?

Is

I mean, is there someplace I can

339

there something else I can reference or point to or talk to, you

know, that would help me understand this?

A.

Honestly, what is it called when theres a--if I remember,

and I could be wrong about this, but in law, somebody who even knows

somebody can get in trouble for not doing something about it.

they know that this person is going to go do something but they dont

say anything about it, then theyre legally liable and can have

charges brought against them.

Q.

Right, right.

10

A.

I understood that.

So, if

So I had to present two sides to my

11

friends.

12

casual talk was casual talk.

13

going to do other than maybe very vague questions to see how they

14

were going to react.

15
16

And that was one was that I kind of gave them, you know,
I never talked to them about what I was

But I made a----

CDC: No, I think what youre referring to is the concept of a

duty to report.

17

I/O: Right, yes.

18

CDC: That there are some circumstances under which it--theyre

19

rather narrow, actually.

20

I/O: Yeah, yeah.

21

CDC: And it depends on who the listener is, what pay grade and

22
23

that kind of thing.

I/O: Yeah, yeah.

E0342

340

CDC: Is that what youre driving at?

I/O: Yeah.

CDC: There are some things that had you shared, the person you

were sharing it with might have had a duty to report.

SBJ: They would have gotten in trouble.

CDC: And then would have gotten in trouble had they not

reported.

8
9

Thats what Im----

I/O: They would have gotten in trouble if they had not reported
it.

10

SBJ: Yeah, had not reported it.

11

I/O: Okay.

12

A.

So I wasnt going to risk everything coming down and the

13

investigation being launched and what some interrogator finds out is

14

that my friend knew about it.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

A.

Didnt say anything about it and now----

17

Q.

Hes in trouble.

18

A.

Hes in trouble, yeah.

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

So, unfortunately, to answer your question, youre not

21

going to find anything like that.

22

Q.

Okay, okay.

23

A.

Because I wasnt--this was all on me.

E0343

341

Q.

Okay.

A.

And because of that, theres--unfortunately.

I/O: Okay, nope, thats fair.

Lets take a quick five minutes.

When we come back well hit the maps with a marker.

Is that okay?

CDC: Yeah.

[The interview recessed on 7 August 2014.]

[The interview resumed on 7 August 2014.]

I/O: Sergeant First Class Lee is our Intel Analyst at our Corps

Intelligence Center.

Hes the one who helped dig up the maps, the

10

imagery and all that.

11

CDC: Yeah, cool.

12

I/O: If you dont mind, Sergeant Lee, if you could just work

13

with Sergeant Bergdahl and help to re-cover, you know, some of all

14

that.

15

All right?

So all I really want to do is, to the greatest

16

extent possible, to help you identify where you were, what routes you

17

took, you know, all the rest of that stuff and just put them on the

18

map with the markers.

19
20

Okay.

Where do you want to start, Sergeant Lee?

WIT: It doesnt matter.

Its really up to you guys.

But just

21

of note, I mean, the intelligence really pointed toward you moving

22

east, which is kind of the general consensus and then the intel kind

23

of spit everything all over everywhere.

E0344

342

It was interesting to see

when you said yesterday that you kind of skirted this way [pointing

to the west of Malak on Exhibit 3].

SBJ: Yeah, mm-hm.

They didnt expect that.

I/O: Yeah, and again, this goes back to, you know, just so you

know Gene, I mean, the intelligence, particularly, you know, in the

hours after the Taliban and everybody knows PFC Bergdahl is missing,

it now all of a sudden becomes all over the map.

reports, 9 of them are bullshit.

close to truth, but you dont know which one of those 10 it is.

Okay, so you get 10

One of them is probably somewhere

10

CDC: This is Taliban talking to one another?

11

I/O: Exactly.

So youre picking up--some of its bad

12

translation by our interpreters.

Some of it is just theyre

13

embellishing between each other.

Some of it is deliberate deception.

14

SBJ: Theyre not even honest with each other.

15

I/O: So what were trying to do here is get no-kidding ground-

16

truth as you recall it anyhow.

17

SBJ: I can mark on this [viewing Exhibit 4]?

18

I/O: Yeah, just write right on it.

19

CDC: Will that show up, the yellow on that?

20

Q.

And heres Sharana [pointing to FOB Sharana on Exhibit 4].

21

A.

Yeah, thats FOB Sharana.

22

Q.

Yeah.

23

CDC: Use a darker color.

E0345

Im just concerned thats going to---343

WIT: The maps for you, so----

A.

I just want to start with, basically, this is the OP

[identifying OP1 located at COP Mest on Exhibit 4].

Q.

Yep.

A.

From my understanding, because this is in the darkness, so

Ill give you a general field of basically a sector of possibilities

[drawing a yellow sector on Exhibit 4 to indicate directional plan

west of Malak].

Q.

Somewhere in that fan?

10

A.

Yes, somewhere in that fan would be the general feeling I

11
12
13

had that night.

Q.

Yeah, and this is the high ground that you recall [pointing

toward elevation located in yellow sector on Exhibit 4]?

14

A.

Yeah.

15

Q.

That you were a little bit surprised by, I guess?

16

A.

Yeah.

17

Q.

And you started to climb that a little bit?

18

A.

Yeah.

19

Q.

But, you do recall coming down on the back side of it?

20

A.

Yeah.

21

Q.

And then going somewhere up in this fan?

22

A.

Yeah, somewhere out there, which is where Id be.

23

CDC: This is before capture?

E0346

That was the high ground I recall.

344

A.

CDC: Okay.

Yeah, this is before capture.

Maybe youd want to put an X at what you believe

is the point of capture.

A.

CDC: Or maybe its a line, given that you described a cone area,

6
7

The point of capture would be----

it would presumably be a point on a line somewhere.

A.

[Drawing a line to indicate the point of capture located

north of elevation indicated within yellow sector on Exhibit 4] It

would be something like past that line would be my guess.

10

Q.

Would be the point of capture?

11

A.

Yeah.

12

WIT: This is pretty significant.

I mean, I spent time in

13

Sharana in 2011 and 2012 and you started about--Sharana is at 7,700

14

feet above sea level.

15

its extremely difficult on your cardiovascular system.

16

high up there.

17
18

A.

Yeah.

So if you start climbing any sort of terrain,

Its pretty

And I had actually, prior to this, like I said,

physical fitness was my thing.

19

Q.

Yeah, yeah.

20

A.

I wanted to go Special Forces.

So the moment I got to the

21

country, I had started in the evenings whenever I was at Sharana, I

22

had started running and at the FOB Sharana theres a lot of dips and

23

hills.

E0347

345

WIT: Yup, you run the fence.

A.

And so I was physically fit, so I had reason to believe

that this distance was doable.

Q.

Okay.

A.

It was going to test me, certainly.

Q.

Yeah.

A.

But that was the point.

Q.

Right.

A.

So making my loop here and then making a bigger loop.

10

Q.

And originally, I think if I recall yesterday, you were

11

intending on staying flat the whole way?

12

A.

Yeah, I was intending to stay flat and as you can see----

13

Q.

This was a surprise when you got to that?

14

A.

As you can see this all right here was, but the idea was

15

that they were using these hills to sneak up on the road and put IEDs

16

in there.

17

Q.

So I changed to swing out and then swing back in.

Yep.

That arc is what screwed you up.

18

one of these other ones then.

19

you have no idea what happened after that?

So lets go onto

At this point you are blindfolded and

20

A.

Once I got here, I got blindfolded and----

21

Q.

Could have gone anywhere and you wouldnt--could have gone

22

back this way and you wouldnt have known it [pointing in the

E0348

346

opposite direction of known travel identified by the subject on

Exhibit 4]?

Okay, good enough [putting away Exhibit 4].

4
5

Q.

Maybe this one would be good to kind of understand

[retrieving Exhibit 3].

You said you went through Malak?

A.

[Viewing Exhibit 3] Yeah.

Q.

Kind of a general----

A.

So basically, this is where I started.

It was probably

10

something like this [drawing the starting point on Exhibit 3 with a

11

black arc].

12

this way, like that.

13

way.

14

previously drawn on Exhibit 3].

15
16

Here is going to be a question, I am pretty sure I went

I cant remember--it could be possibly this

Either way I ended up somewhere over here [pointing to the arc

Q.

This is Exhibit 3 right now, Sergeant Ramsey, the first one

was whatever this big one is----

17

CDC: Four.

18

I/O: Exhibit 4 was the first one, now we are on Exhibit 3.

19

A.

20

Getting to this point, I did the same thing.

The cone

would be something like [drawing a cone shape on Exhibit 3].

21

So that would be the idea.

22

Q.

These are hundred-meter rings?

23

A.

Yes.

E0349

347

1
2
3
4
5

Q.

These are two-hundred meter rings, yeah, those are two-

hundred meter rings.

WIT: That would change it, sir.

Those are two-hundred meter

rings.
A.

That was the direct route there.

By this point I was

dodging the high-mass silhouettes in the darkness and I didnt have

my compass out and I was basically following the terrain and my

internal compass and the swinging out.

out I switched directions, didnt use my compass for the next couple

10
11
12

Like I said, twenty minutes

hours and that took me---Q.

Your decision to switch directions was when you had

realized, Let me pick up some intel----

13

A.

Let me see if I can----

14

Q.

You didnt make that decision until you were 20 minutes

15

outside the wire, okay.

16
17
18

Give me an idea of where you were in one of these when day

broke and you put on your Afghan garb.
A.

I had cleared this in the night [pointing to the elevation

19

located in the black arc drawn west of Malak on Exhibit 3].

20

the most severe stuff.

That was

21

Q.

So you were north of the high ground?

22

A.

I had started to get into more mountainous areas and as you

23

can see, its a little rougher here.

E0350

So I would have to say that

348

probably daylight was beginning along the same line.

here [made marks on the exhibit].

light and then the sun rising would probably be somewhere around

there.

Do you know how long after you put on your native gear were
you captured?

8
9

That was going to be about grey

CDC: Can I--your question raises a question in my mind.

6
7

Probably about

I dont think you asked that question.

I/O: Yeah, I was about to.

10

CDC: Sorry.

11

Q.

No, its exactly right.

Youre--you leave here, its about

12

midnight, you get over here, its still dark, its grey light here,

13

daylight here, youve got your Afghan garb on now, right?

14

A.

Yeah.

15

Q.

Because you put your Afghan garb on at about grey light?

16

A.

Yeah.

17

Q.

So then daylight comes, youre in--and then how soon before

18

the motorcycles roll up on you?

19
20

An hour?
A.

Five hours?

I was focused on walking, I couldnt remember a thing.

21

know it all happened before I got closer to noon than was from

22

daylight.

23

Q.

E0351

I would say maybe a couple hours.

So the point of capture is probably out here somewhere?
349

A.

Yeah.

Q.

So roughly out here somewhere.

CDC: Further north a bit.

WIT: Unless you want to have him kind of give details as to

which way he went here, sir.

it there, SGT Bergdahl [putting away Exhibit 3 and retrieving Exhibit

2].

8
9
10
11
12
13

A.

Other than that you kind of alluded to

[Viewing Exhibit 2] The Lieutenants truck, because here you

can see the gate, his truck was pushed up here.

WIT: This image was actually from 2 July, I believe.

Just a

couple days after you---A.

All our tents, like my tent was somewhere around here, this

is where my tent was.

14

CR: Sir, can I make a suggestion?

15

I/O: Yup.

16

CR:

For the tent, can you just put a T next to it and maybe

17

where the truck is M for MRAP, just something that identifies it on

18

the maps, so when we look at it later we know what it means.

19

CDC:

We are looking at Exhibit 2.

20

I/O:

Yup, thank you, Eugene.

21
22

So thats Lieutenant Billings MRAP and thats your

individual tent.

E0352

There was another truck over here?

350

A.

So this would be covered with C-wire and there would be a

truck there [drawing a black rectangular shape to indicate location

of MRAP on Exhibit 2].

Q.

Somebody elses truck, you dont know whose truck that was?

A.

No, but Im pretty sure that was the truck that I might

have came in [pointing to truck located at entrance near base of hill

closest to OP1 on Exhibit 2].

Q.

The one that you drove out, but then you pulled guard in?

A.

Yeah, the one I drove out.

10

Q.

It was either this one or it was the one that was over

11

here.

12

the platoon sergeant was probably sleeping in a cot right there

13

[drawing a black rectangular shape to identify the platoon sergeants

14

MRAP and cot on Exhibit 2].

15

The First Sergeants truck was here.

A.

The First--excuse me,

So my movement would have been from my tent [drawing a

16

circle with an X inside the circle to indicate where subject

17

slept], this is--there was like this stream bed right here.

18

would have gone to the other side of that.

19

this is where roughly the plastic was on the wire.

20

heres where the bunker was, across the plastic thing, across that,

21

in-between this guy and this in here, down into the gully--wait, hold

22

on just----

23

Q.

E0353

This one?
351

So I

Worked my way along here,

Up this hill,

A.

2
3

Yeah, that one.

So it would have been down here and then I skirted the

hill.

Q.

Because if you came further out they might have seen you?

A.

Yup.

Q.

So you stayed down here and its, like you said, had they

been standing up with their NODs looking down, they might have

seen----

A.

They would have seen----

10

Q.

Sitting down there looking out over the top of you.

11

A.

Looking down----

12

Q.

Yup.

13

A.

----this is like a blind spot.

14

Q.

Yup, okay, good [putting away Exhibit 2].

15

I think you might find some of this stuff interesting, so

16

just flip through them [retrieving various photographs printed from

17

original CID ROI marked as Exhibits 10 through 39].

18

need you to do anything on this, but these are just--again, this is

19

the OP up here.

20

and around behind the hill, right [viewing Exhibit 37]?

You are coming down here, skirting down this way,

21

A.

Yup.

22

Q.

This is the OP on the top of the hill?

23

A.

Yup.

E0354

Its not like I

As you can see---352

I/O: Thats Exhibit 37.

A.

As you can see, the only thing that was there was that

little window and that would be across the guy who was sleeping right

there and those guys would be set there.

out that window because the ANP was right behind us.

Q.

We had no reason to look

So they would be looking out that way, so you could come up

without being seen.

This is Exhibit 39.

And theres the truck at

this entrance, this is the truck--your truck would have been a little

further down here.

10

WIT: It would have been pressed over here. You see that opening?

11

Q.

And you would have been sleeping somewhere right in here?

12

A.

Right there and our trucks were pressed all the way up the

13

gate right there.

14

Q.

Then all the rest of these, well just----

15

A.

Theres the OP that we moved to.

16

Q.

This is all really just for your enjoyment.

17

A.

Its weird seeing it again.

18

Q.

Yeah, I bet it is weird seeing it.

19

So this is Mest out here, just across the road.

20

A.

That berm actually wasnt there when I was there.

21

Q.

This is looking back to the west side.

That is probably

22

the platoon sergeants truck.

23

referred to where you crossed over here [viewing Exhibit 15].

E0355

This is that creek bed you had just

353

1
2

That one is Exhibit 15, now we are on Exhibit 16.

Again

you would have come this way, went up the hill.

Exhibit 17, theres the plastic thing that you stepped on.

A.

That little trail wasnt there when I was there.

Q.

Thats Exhibit 17.

Exhibit 18, and heres where you come

up and you cross over the water.

This is knocking the wire down and

you can go right to the U.S. OP.

You can go left to the Afghan OP,

and you went up somewhere, probably here?

9
10
11

A.

That trail wasnt there when I was there.

It looked more

like this, so that was something they did afterwards.

Q.

Exhibit 19--there is really nothing to see on Exhibit 19,

12

20, 21, 22, 23, and this gives you an example of--thats the kind of

13

tent you were in?

14

A.

Yes, thats the kind of tent.

15

Q.

Thats Exhibit 23.

16

You can see the tent between the two

MRAPS and that is an example.

17

[Exhibits] 24, 25, this must be the shitter I guess, right?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

Thats Exhibit 25.

20

A.

Thats another shitter and then we burned trash over there.

21

Q.

You can see the burn pit in Exhibit 26.

22
23

[Exhibit] 27, nothing.

[Exhibit] 28, nothing.

just another--looking down from the top.

E0356

354

And thats

1
2
3

This is your mortars Im guessing, right?

A.

Yeah, when I was there--from what I saw, they were set up

over here.

Q.

That was Exhibit 30.

A.

Thats going to be per the commander in charge at the time.

Q.

Nothing on Exhibit 31, 32, 33, and now we are on 34 and you

can see from the U.S. OP looking towards the Afghan OP.

A.

Yup.

Q.

You would have come down this way into this gully here,

10

Yup.

right [viewing Exhibit 34]?

11

A.

Yeah.

12

Q.

That was Exhibit 34.

13

A.

You can see right here, this would be the ANP guys and

14

because they are looking down the valley at the ground, which would

15

be----

16

Q.

Go ahead and draw right on that one [pointing to Exhibit

17

34], where you--the route you took, approximately.

18

[The subject did as directed.]

19

A.

I would have been--probably would have just come up in--

20

down that way.

21

that way.

22

to see anything.

E0357

You can see that they were going to be looking down

Theyre not going to see a silhouette; theyre not going

Especially in the low light area, so they are

355

completely blind and they rely on the Americans to see anything right

there.

So you can see why that was the route that I took.

Q.

That was Exhibit 34.

Go ahead and draw on this one, too.

I am thinking it was something like that.

second, 36.

This is exhibit; hold on a

Then around the backside, is this OP DUSTWUN, you were

there for--you did what, one rotation there, two rotations there and

later gave it to the ANP?

A.

Yeah, we did a couple weeks there until the battalion

10

commander had a fit up there.

You can see that it is completely out

11

of site from--this hill is in--which were the ANP first, is

12

completely blocking that.

13

to get to the TCP.

You have to come all the way back around

14

Q.

Was this one where Colonel Baker kicked the gravestone?

15

A.

Convoy kicked him out about here.

16

Q.

So that wasnt on OP 1, it was on the orig--the first TCP.

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

That was Exhibit 36.

19
20

Then Exhibit 38, nothing, and this was a blurry exhibit,

okay, good.

All right, lets go have a seat and finish up.

21

CDC: Are you sure about that trail not being there?

22

A.

E0358

Yeah.

356

1
2
3

CDC: Because the trail looked like, to me, Ive never been to
Afghanistan.

The trail could look that way----

I/O: It could have.

Depending on those pictures, those pictures

may have been taken three weeks after he departed.

After he departed

that placement of a population of about 25 turned into like 200.

CDC: Got it, so you get a real quick----

Q.

Absolutely.

A.

Absolutely.

Q.

Its very, very, sandy--its just dust you put a trail in

10

and it looks like it had been there for a very long time, then you

11

get the moon dust then its like walking through talcum powder, 12

12

inches of it.

13

I want to ask you--I dont have the e-mail that you sent to

14

your dad that keeps getting used in Hastings article and it keeps

15

getting taken out of context and I wonder if you wouldnt mind

16

sharing the original e-mail that you sent your dad with us.

17

CDC: Have you got it?

18

A.

I dont have the original e-mail from my e-mail account,

19

because that was a Yahoo account and after a certain period of

20

inactivity it gets deleted.

21

on the Wikipedia site is my e-mail.

22

I can go out there----

E0359

However, I know that the e-mail that is

I dont get service in here but

357

Q.

You dont need to do that, all I need to know is the one on

Wikipedia is, if you can authenticate that the one on Wikipedia is no

kidding, genuine communication, and its complete.

A.

As far as I can tell.

Q.

That one is not taken out of context; the whole thing is in

there.

A.

The whole thing is in there.

Q.

Thats good enough, so I dont need you to dig it up and I

9
10

can dig it up.

I just need you to say, Yeah, thats mine.

appears to be complete.

11

It

That helps a lot.

We talked about this a bit yesterday and I want to go back

12

and visit this.

13

you to describe for me, tell me, from after you left the wire, what

14

are your injuries?

15

current profile, what are the things that you have gotten treatment

16

for and are continuing to recover from?

17

A.

It has to do with your injuries.

What are the extent of your injuries, your

I have--starting with my feet, I have neuropathy in my

18

feet.

19

tingling, burning sensations.

20

I would like for

So I cant feel the bottoms of my feet except for like numb,

CDC: Hold on, you had--is any of that related to the surgery

21

that you had?

22

A.

23

CDC: Okay, I just wanted to distinguish----

E0360

No.

358

I/O: Absolutely, thats the point.

CDC: ----is it possible,--I will be a lawyer a little bit.

it possible that what you are describing, your radiculopathy or

neuropathy, is an aggravation of the condition you had because of

your wound and infection in your heel?

A.

CDC: Im going to assume thats phonetically [sic] right.

A.

Is

Proof that it isnt is the fact that its in my right leg.

I had full feeling when I got to Afghanistan; I had full

feeling in the bottoms of my feet and my toes.

It was in my heel

10

that I had that weird feeling of just tight cartilage or tight

11

muscle.

Its completely different than----

12

CDC: Well, Im sorry I interrupted.

13

I/O: Go ahead.

14

CDC: What other conditions?

15

A.

Injuries that are with me right now, or that have lasted,

16

would be, one, the neuropathy, the muscle aches and pains from the

17

multiple accounts of muscle atrophy.

18

being left in a cross-legged position for so long as well as hips--

19

any contact--if you are laying on your side on a dirt floor for hours

20

and days and months at a time you get a burning sensation in your

21

bones because of--I dont know why, but you just get these--its like

22

contact points.

23

way to--and the diet, basically, vitamin deficiency from a bad diet.

E0361

Joints, from inactivity and

Because theres constant contact there, there is no

359

That is left behind so in my joints I have, I call it burning bones.

Impact is, running is extremely difficult because the impact is--my

joints arent used to that.

its not acute necessarily, there is just times where it will cramp

up really bad, and thats from spending so much time sitting in that

position on the floor, same with the muscles in my neck.

my rotator cuff and from I believe--dislocated--for one it was

dislocating because the way they would transport me was in the back

of a truck, throw blankets on top of me and the roads in Afghanistan

Lower-back muscles, acute pain there,

A tear in

10

are far from being roads.

Their vehicles are far from having shocks.

11

Hip problems.

12

the first year, I escaped for eight days.

13

a cliff, landing on my left side, which after that point I was unable

14

to close my hand or bend my elbow.

15

putting weight on my left hip was excruciatingly painful but after

16

the first night I had to continue that for the next seven, eight,

17

days of crawling up and down the mountains of Afghanistan.

18

constant--it was just adding to it.

19

I would land on my tailbone so that--I have pain there.

So the rotator tear I believe came from, in the end of

The first night I fell off

Putting weight--I couldnt--

The times that I would pass out

20

CDC: This is during your escape attempt?

21

A.

22

The fall was during my escape attempt and a lot of the

times that I passed out was during the escape attempt.

E0362

There was

360

There was

also--following that, times that I passed out.

there were also times that I passed out, just falling in the room.

In the first year

Right now I have a vitamin deficiency.

I have eye problems

because I am used to extremely bad light and everything that I was

dealing with was within this distance, especially in the darkness.

After the first year they put me in--when I was in--they put me in a

cage.

you want to call them, blocks the vision from clearly seeing whats

past that.

That screen in front of my face blocks, the ribs [bars]

or whatever

Right now I can see your face clearly, but if someone was

10

standing out in the hallway it would be blurry, bright light because

11

my eyes--Ive spent the last five years in either no--low light, no

12

light, and there were times that the light would never go off, but

13

that was fairly limited because Afghanistan doesnt have a power

14

supply that lasts.

15

me my hearing is fine, but I hear this screaming noise.

16

CDC: Tinnitus.

17

A.

My eyes are messed up, my hearing--everyone tells

Just overall--basically, I mean, physical therapy is

18

basically dealing with the fact that my body has adapted to living in

19

a six by eight space.

20

problems, no chairs or anything, you just sit on the floor so that

21

puts me in a bad position.

22

with the after effects of that: burning bones, aching joints, muscle

23

pain from muscles that have to rebuild, my shoulders are extremely

E0363

Just completely inactive, with the body

All that added up, so now I am dealing

361

loose and they pop out very easily, so we are dealing with that.

worst is--doctors say everything can be recovered except for the

neuropathy.

The

I cant feel my feet.

CDC: Both feet.

A.

Both feet.

Both feet, and there was a little neuropathy in

my hands but it wasnt that severe so thats why they kind of think

that it wasnt just the position I was sitting in for some extended [period

of time]--it was everything combined, but they kind of mark it down.

also vitamin deficiency from bad diet that added to the neuropathy because

10

it was also my hands or something along those lines.

11

Im at right now.

12
13

Q.

Your thumb is better?

Thats where

You mentioned yesterday that you had

a problem with your thumb.

14

A.

Yeah.

15

Q.

Thats recovered?

16

A.

Yes, thats recovered.

17

Q.

I dont have any more questions.

18

CDC: Have we answered every one of your questions?

19

Q:

I had one other question.

Its really--so we--its been

20

very, very productive, very helpful, the last couple of days.

21

separating fact from fiction, I have to determine what the

22

recommendations are going to be, what the findings are going to be.

23

What do you think?

E0364

Now what?
362

Im

What do you think is fair?

So

1
2

CDC: I think we ought to--thats a round house question and we

ought to consult before answering that question.

Is that fair?

Can you excuse us?

I/O: Yeah, absolutely.

CDC: No, we will go out because you have people listening in

this room, so we will go outside.

[The civilian defense counsel and the subject departed.]

[The civilian defense counsel and the subject returned.]

9
10
11
12

CDC: So your question was?

Q.

My question was having shared all of this with us, what do

you think is fair?

A.

First of all, I acknowledge that I am in the military

13

service and you are the higher ranking commander.

14

is your discernment and Im not going to have a problem with that.

15

What you choose to do is for a reason that you choose for the better

16

of the situation.

17

personal part, after the last five years that I have been through,

18

it would be, I dont think, too--I dont want to go with brash, too

19

exaggerated to say that, [the last five years] that was a little more than

20

any prison system in America could put forth, if we are talking punishment

21

for action. I read on the internet somebody saying, Well, if charges of

22

desertion were pressed than he would spend five years in prison.

23

you put it in that sense, realistically speaking, what I dealt with

E0365

Your discernment

You are looking at the bigger picture.

363

On my

If

isnt in the American prison system because we go to great extent of

giving prisoners the luxuries of being human.

From my personal perspective, given the opportunity to move

on with my life, which has been what has kept me going.

to get back to this life and being the perfectionist that I am, make

up for all of the things I had to look at as regrets.

Do I need anything to move on with my life?

I need something as a human being.

before.

The ability

Yes, obviously

I can pull myself up like I did

I started at the bottom before; I can start at the bottom.

10

It would be extremely--it would be a great relief and it would help a

11

lot if I had the GI Bill to get an education, if I had my VA benefits

12

considering my body and the state that it is in.

13

relief to have those health benefits.

14

that people keep mentioning.

15

to me.

16

start businesses. I would like to do something--do what I started out

17

to do and that make a difference that I can see and perceive in this

18

world that I have done something.

19

talking about with the SERE guys is I would like to start--every time

20

it came to escaping, every time it came to everyday life, I regretted

21

the fact that I didnt have the SERE training, that I didnt have

22

some kind of training.

23

and having to listen to a lot of stories that I have from my female

It would be a great

The money that I have incurred

Money has never made a big difference

However, to make up for the last five years I would like to

E0366

Like one of the things I was

I understand knowing as many people as I do

364

friends, people lack, not just survival skills in extreme situations,

people lack survival skills in everyday domestic situations,

especially females.

school?

That could be conveyed at--that could pass on needed skills so that I

could help people out there the way that I didnt have that help when

that situation came.

do that.

this would be a much happier world.

10

Would I want to start a survival-self defense

Yes, I would like to start a survival-self defense school.

Would I like to do that?

Yes, I would like to

Unfortunately, if every dream could simply be materialized,

It doesnt--it takes hard work

and it takes finance.

11

So if I could have the starting point to kick all that off,

12

to have the education to kick all that off, and have my health not

13

being neglected, not declining any further, that would help me a lot

14

to move on and get into the next part of my life.

15

So your decision is going to be your decision.

This is

16

just coming from my side.

17

to understand that as the commander, as the general, you have

18

picture.

19

picture, and your decisions are going to be made off of your

20

understanding of the situation and your experience in all the years

21

that you have been there.

22

am going to respect that.

E0367

Im going to be, as a Soldier, I am going

the big

You have to look at everything, details to the bigger

You are going to make your decision and I

365

I/O: Its not really my decision.

Im the investigating officer

in a 15-6 and its informal.

It is an informal fact-finding. I will present findings and I will

address the offenses that we have talked about, you know, desertion,

AWOL, fraudulent enlistment.

I believe to be the case based upon 60 days of work and a lot of help

and a great benefit with the last day-and-a-half with you and

cooperation of your counsel, by the way.

A lot of people dont understand this.

I will present findings, which is--what

I will provide recommendations.

All of that goes to

10

Lieutenant General Grisoli who is the Director of the Army Staff in

11

the Pentagon.

12

the Army and the Secretary of the Army.

13

Secretary of the Army will be the decision maker.

14

of Staff of the Army will be the decision makers to determine, Here

15

is what we are going to do with General Dahls findings and

16

recommendations.

17

to what they do with my findings and recommendations.

18

decide to do something or recommend something or some follow-up, its

19

really your current chain of command that ends up carrying the ball

20

there.

21

that decision by the secretary and your subsequent chain-of-command.

22

So thats why I have not had any communication from any of them from

23

the very beginning.

He is acting really on behalf of the Chief of Staff of

I would expect that the
He and the Chief

They will--they are really the decision makers as

Should they

There is a complete separation between what I am doing and

E0368

366

Let me share with you that in the 60 days, clearly you

scribbled outside the lines.

Its just a matter of understanding

that and developing the finding on that.

understand, as I have shared with you earlier, prior to your

fantastic plan you were one of the best Soldiers, arguably the best

Soldier in your platoon.

exemplary, is probably an adequate way to describe it, thats worth

noting.

believe and understand that your conduct during captivity is also

However, I have come to

Your service up until that point was

Again, I dont have all the details but I have been led to

10

very positive.

I dont know if I can say exemplary because I dont

11

know the details enough, but from what I have heard from the folks

12

that debriefed you, it would be hard for anybody to take exception to

13

that.

14

impression.

15

what I understand, youre, as I mentioned to you yesterday, for all

16

of your suffering over the last five years, there has been a great

17

deal of value extracted from that with the SERE de-briefers, with the

18

intel de-briefers, with the criminal investigators, and with the

19

medical community and your own reintegration which continues.

20

suspect that, that is not over yet.

21

continue.

22

am done I suspect they will want to follow-up with you if you want to

23

do that, also very positive.

I cant speak with authority on that but that is my

E0369

I think that is also a positive.

I also think, from

I suspect that they will

They are on a pause now so we can do this piece.

When I

Youve been incredibly cooperative with

367

me during my investigation as well.

All of those are positives which

I will make a great deal of effort to include in my report and in my

findings and my recommendations. I think all of that deserves to be

considered by those who will make the decision.

Im going--its got to be fair and balanced, you make

decisions, there are consequences to the decisions, but you know

there is also aggravation and there is also extenuation and

mitigation and all of that needs to be considered comprehensively.

The only thing I can commit to you is, we have given it our very best

10

effort in the time we have been given to do this.

I am very

11

satisfied that we have done a thorough, good job.

The whole process

12

has a great deal of integrity to it and that you--all of this will be

13

fairly represented as I pass it up the chain-of-command with my

14

findings and recommendations.

15

asked the question, and I appreciate you taking the time to consult

16

and answer.

17

have asked and that is fully cooperative and I will be on record

18

saying that as well.

19

Thanks.

I wanted your input and that is why I

Yes, you have answered every question that I

Im done with this.

When you were on the phone I mentioned

20

to Sergeant Bergdahl outside what I would like to do is step outside

21

the investigation, turn all that off, and just share with him some

22

things I think he might be interested in, just in terms of friends,

23

family, platoon-mates, folks that Ive talked to.

E0370

368

Just to give him

the benefit of updates on folks like Monica and James Cameron, and

your Mom and Dad, Kim and Kayla and, if youre okay with that.

SBJ: Yes, I am.

I/O: Sergeant Ramsey, you want to come in and turn all this

stuff off?

[Staff Sergeant Ramsey did as directed and the interview completed on

7 August 2014.]

BRB

E0371

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369