Talk:2020 Venezuelan parliamentary election

This article should be deleted

This article has no value and the topic should at most warrant a side note in another article. 74.164.41.7 (talk) 01:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

• oppose please wait. We have articles for next elections. --Panam2014 (talk) 10:23, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Juan Guaidó restored version.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:52, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Date

I think I read Luis Parra anouncing that the next elections would be scheduled for 20 May, but I can't find independent sources about this. I'll watch out if I find any. --Jamez42 (talk) 13:12, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

To add list

• Venezuela top court ousts leaders of opposition parties in run-up to congress vote (Reuters)
• U.S. accuses Venezuela's Maduro of seeking to rig upcoming vote (Reuters)
• Venezuela court orders takeover of 2 major political parties (AP)
• Venezuela's top court ousts leaders of two opposition parties(BBC)

--ReyHahn (talk) 10:59, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

• More Venezuela to boost number of legislators in National Assembly in 2021--ReyHahn (talk) 09:00, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
• Venezuela to boost number of legislators in National Assembly in 2021
• Venezuela to vote for new parliament on Dec. 6)

--ReyHahn (talk) 09:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

• Bachelet on TSJ decision --ReyHahn (talk) 14:53, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
• Voluntad Popular leader changed by TSJ --ReyHahn (talk) 10:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
• Lima Group members reject Venezuelan parliamentary elections--ReyHahn (talk) 12:10, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Table

@Number 57: Hi; I did edit the code manually, although I admit I'm not too savvy with the template code of tables and lists. I think a possible solution could be to remove the abbrevition column. Another solution could be to extend the column to the titles. Please let me know what you think about these tips or if you have any other suggestions. Best regards! --NoonIcarus (talk) 13:40, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, it shows up as a Visual Edit in the edit history of the article. Perhaps it's best to experiment in your sandbox or here on the talk page, rather than leave the table on the live article in a mess. This is the second time today it's been left as such.

Also, I'm not sure it's a good idea to do this anyway. I think this collapsing technique was developed a few years ago during a discussion between myself and Impru20 about long results tables on Spanish election articles. However, one issue we discovered is that it doesn't line up properly on all browsers – while the 2015 results table looks fine in Chrome, if you view it on Internet Explorer, the column edges in the table are 1px to the right of those in the heading. I see Impru has abandoned using this on Spanish general election articles so might be able to give an opinion on doing this. Number 57 13:58, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Ah yes, the nightmare of the collapsible tables. They worked for a while, but I ended up discarding them because they started giving many alignment problems, so now the Spanish election articles use alternative arrangements for such broad alliances. My input on this would be to avoid use these if possible: its nigh to impossible to make them workable, and even if you do get them right in one browser, they may show up as a full mess in another one. PS. I use Chrome and the 2015 results table doesn't look fine for me, as it isn't lined up correctly. Impru20^talk 18:15, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Results does not add up

The results table says that there are 277 seats, but the assigned seats are 199+8+1+1+3=212. What is the reason for the difference? Are some seats unfilled? Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:02, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

@Hanif Al Husaini: Yes, the rest of the seats remain to be confirmed. --NoonIcarus (talk) 13:44, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Is Diosdado Cabello the real leader of the PSUV in this election?

Hi Wikipedia,

Even though it shows up here that Francisco Torrealba is the leader of the PSUV in this election, is he really? I follow this situation closely, and nobody's really heard of Francisco Torrealba. In fact, I've never heard Torrealba mentioned once as the leader of the PSUV -- not even in this article which briefly mentions him, written by an opposition news source about the disputed National Assembly election earlier this year.

I'm going to change the PSUV leader in the infobox to Diosdado Cabello for the time being (given that he's the Vice President of the party); feel free to comment with your propositions. HandIsNotNookls (talk) 20:35, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

@HandIsNotNookls: The article that you linked precisely defines him as leader of the PSUV in the Assembly (jefe de la bancada del Partido Socialista Unido de Venezuela (PSUV) en el Parlamento). We would have to wait to see who the next leader would be (now a majority leader), but from what I gather the convention is to leave the leader of the previous Assembly. I recommend leaving Torrealba for this reason, as putting Diosdado would amount to speculation or original research at best. --NoonIcarus (talk) 00:23, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

"Intervened" in table

Mentioning and sourcing that a party was subject to an electoral commission intervention is important, but is the result table really the right place to do so? It seem to me it would be better removed from the table and placed in a separate paragraph.--Aréat (talk) 07:32, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I think the label is important to distinguish the participants from the leaders that have rejected or abstained from the election, but whatever the editors think is better would be preferable. --NoonIcarus (talk) 09:32, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

A footnote may work also, but I think that the note between parenthesis is enough.--ReyHahn (talk) 10:38, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

@Aréat: From what I understand, do you disagree with this inclusion? Pinging @ReyHahn: and @Number 57: as well. --NoonIcarus (talk) 17:57, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

It's been a while, are we talking about the table at the end of the article?--ReyHahn (talk) 18:00, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

That's correct. --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:05, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I find the current footnote better than outright writting it near the party's name, yes.--Aréat (talk) 18:14, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Roger that. --NoonIcarus (talk) 19:17, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Some comments

Here are some points that I noticed while reading this article:

• What does "judicially intervened" mean? If it has a technical meaning, this needs to be explained when the term is introduced in the lead. If it doesn't have a technical meaning then a clearer phrase should be used.
• One would expect the lead of an election article to provide a summary of the results. Instead the lead is taken up with opinions of various groups opposed to the holding of elections.
• In fact most of the article is taken up with the same opinions mentioned above. Only two very strange sentences are devoted to the campaign itself. ("In late October, the chief commander of Los Andes region, mayor general Ovidio Delgado Ramírez announced "a campaign to deliver firewood to the population" and "During the final campaign, Diosdado Cabello declared: "He who does not vote, does not eat. For the one that does not vote there is no food. A quarantine is applied there." ")
• There is nothing about assessments of the election results. Were there any surprises? Was there any fraud? What did the international observers say?
• The level of English in the article needs to be improved. The phrasing is awkward and hard to understand.

Burrobert (talk) 17:24, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

To be fair, compared to other articles on Venezuela, this article had just the minimal amount of activity.--ReyHahn (talk) 18:04, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Intentionally misleading quote

This article includes the intentionally misleading assertion that Diosdado Cabello commented "he who does not vote, does not eat." This quote was deliberately taken out of context to make it sound like a threat, but is clear in context to be a joke about the mothers and wives of male voters, not a threat from the government. When I deleted this passage, it was deleted as "reliable sources" used the out-of-context quote; but this is absurd: There is a video of the statement. Are we obligated to publish demonstrably false material so long as a western source endorses it?

The video of Cabello making the joke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=553&v=I96Q3wCQYLU

A few, relatively obscure English sources made clear the remark was a joke:

But many more Spanish language sources that make the same clear - there are many more established sources here (including many in pro-opposition and right-wing outlets): Many used the misleading quote as the headline and then clarified the context in the body, but English language media seems to have for the most part failed to do even that. But again, we have the video. There is no guesswork involved. The article as it stands right now is wildly misleading. Zellfire999 (talk) 11:30, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I remarked on the oddity of the sentence in an earlier section. I only read the elespectador article. That article mentions that the comment was a joke and the meaning was that "wives may not feed their husbands if they do not get up this Sunday to go to the polls". With that interpretation, it isn't a very noteworthy comment so doesn't deserve to be included. It seems that the current framing misrepresents the comment to make it appear threatening. Btw there are a lot of other things wrong with this article. I listed a few of them above. Burrobert (talk) 16:04, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

The first source returns a 404 error for me and The Grayzone is currently deprecated in Wikipedia (WP:RSP). At any rate, even construed as a joke, it doesn't mean that the statement is not relevant or isn't distasteful. There is more information about the statement, such as reactions by politicians that have expressed their condemnation, or reports of relted threats unrelated to Cabello. The ABC article in the article specifically says that "La amenaza hacía referencia a la orden de bloquear la entrega de las cajas de alimentos conocidas como «Clap»", "The threat refers to the order to block the delivery of food boxes known as CLAP". At best, Diosdado's position could be included. --NoonIcarus (talk) 13:03, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

The wide reporting in Spanish of the quote suggests it is noteworthy, although the nearest I can find to an Eng-lang RS is https://www.local10.com/news/politics/2020/12/03/attempt-to-increase-voter-turnout-in-venezuelas-midterm-election-comes-with-threat-warning/ . I don't know about en24 (hosted by Wordpress, that article no longer up) but Grayzone and Inspired Traveller are sources we should avoid. If we have sources saying it is a joke and/or a threat we can add that interpretation, but we shouldn't make it in our own voice unless that's what all the sources say. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:00, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

An interpretation by author Simón Rodríguez in New Politics: The president of the ANC, the military officer Diosdado Cabello, issued a warning, cynically disguised as a joke, during a campaign event in the state of Carabobo: “He who does not vote, does not eat. For those who do not vote, there is no food”.BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:09, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

References

Interventions

I think we should create a new article for these cases. Not all cases relate to this election, COPEI's leadership was already replaced in 2015 and a few days ago the leadership of PCV was impeached by the supreme court. There is also Venezuela First which was founded following a failed attempt to hijack Justice First.

@Aréat, NoonIcarus, ReyHahn, and Lordthe6: Braganza (talk) 18:01, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Braganza: I'm not sure if I understand correctly. Do you mean an specific article regarding the intervention of political parties in Venezuela? --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:45, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Exactly Braganza (talk) 19:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

As with everything on Wikipedia, first find a notable source discussing this and its main topic, if not then it is hard to prove notability.--ReyHahn (talk) 19:24, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Found some articles only about (at least about two parties) having their leaderships replaced

1. Spiegel; about VP but also mentions AD & PJ
2. AP News
3. Deutsche Welle
4. PBS
5. VOA
6. BBC
7. A News Website of the Protestant Church in Germany

Braganza (talk) 19:50, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Sure but these are not about "interventions of parties" in general in Venezuela. However maybe a list or timeline like article could be made.--ReyHahn (talk) 20:10, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

this is what i was thinking about Braganza (talk) 20:25, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Braganza: I think this is a really good idea. By 2020 there were already five intervened parties, and the Spanish version of the 2021 regional elections accounts at least twelve (es:Elecciones regionales de Venezuela de 2021). Are there precedents in other countries about the same tactics? It could help for a terminology and see also sections. Some sources have wittingly called the interventions as "doppleganger parties". I know this can be described as coopatation, although I can say confidently that this is the first time that it happens in Venezuelan history, as far as I know.

I would say that there are two issues to consider: The first one is that the topic can be considered too niche, something that I totally disagree with considering the coverage that it's had and the amount of intervened parties. The second would be the question of what would be the best title for the article; the easiest option would probably be the most direct one, "Interventions of political parties in Venezuela". --NoonIcarus (talk) 11:52, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

maybe we need a third opinion for the first issue (if its not seen as too niche, i could see this as a section for List of political parties in Venezuela as an option B but the article isn't in the best shape, and lists of parties should (imo) be only lists without many other things)

and i agree i like this title

I already tried to collect all parties which were intervened but was unable to found when Red Flag was returned to the old leadership before the card was taken away again 2020 nor could i found when there was exactly the Intervention in MOVEV

User:Braganza/SandboxAustria (reused sandbox page, thats why its called "Austria") Braganza (talk) 12:08, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

feel free to edit it Braganza (talk) 20:32, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@Braganza: I'm surprised! This is an amazing work, I specifically love the timmeline chart, kudos for you. MIN-Unidad's intervention was particularly important in the 2015 parliamentary elections because the party was placed next to the MUD (Mesa Unidad) in the ballots, so many pointed out that this could confuse voters ([1][2][3]).

I'll try to find a date for Bandera Roja later, but I think an article with this content can be started in the main space page. --NoonIcarus (talk) 12:03, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

i agree, generally we should copy information from the spanish wikipedia (they are all sourced, this is why i was able to recover the exact date by the dates of the articles) Braganza (talk) 12:11, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Maybe a WP:Draft would be more appropiate?--ReyHahn (talk) 12:14, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

A draft could serve the same purpose that the current user space does. Before its publication, it's a good idea. --NoonIcarus (talk) 12:36, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I went ahead and started Draft:Interventions of political parties in Venezuela, if that's alright. --NoonIcarus (talk) 12:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

alright Braganza (talk) 12:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)