Talk:John Holder (umpire)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:John Holder (umpire)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: StickeyWicket (talk · contribs) 20:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Lee Vilenski (talk · contribs) 11:15, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

New Reviewer: voorts (talk/contributions) 23:55, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Hello, I am planning on reviewing this article for GA Status, over the next couple of days. Thank you for nominating the article for GA status. I hope I will learn some new information, and that my feedback is helpful.

If nominators or editors could refrain from updating the particular section that I am updating until it is complete, I would appreciate it to remove a edit conflict. Please address concerns in the section that has been completed above (If I've raised concerns up to references, feel free to comment on things like the lede.)

I generally provide an overview of things I read through the article on a first glance. Then do a thorough sweep of the article after the feedback is addressed. After this, I will present the pass/failure. I may use strikethrough tags when concerns are met. Even if something is obvious why my concern is met, please leave a message as courtesy.

Best of luck! you can also use the {{done}} tag to state when something is addressed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)}

Please let me know after the review is done, if you were happy with the review! Obviously this is regarding the article's quality, however, I want to be happy and civil to all, so let me know if I have done a good job, regardless of the article's outcome.

Links

• What makes the Mumbai Mirror reliable? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:00, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

• I looked up its affiliation of when referencing and it is part of The Times Group in India; I couldn't find anything to suggest it is a "mucky" publication. AA (talk) 20:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

• From the looks of it, the majority of this is cited to "test of character", which you've stated is written by one person, but Google Books suggests it was also written by the subject. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:00, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

• Yes, I thought it odd that online it mentions Holder as a co-author. I wondered if it was AI generated, because the hard copy only cites Murtagh as the sole author. AA (talk) 20:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Prose

Lede

• in Barbados at Saint George - reorder to in Saint George, Barbados. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:43, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

• Done :) AA (talk) 19:59, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

• Lede has a sentence that starts "as of 2024", but the associated source in the body is from 2021, so that's the date you need to use. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:48, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

• Amended; sadly, there isn't a source to carry it through to 2024! AA (talk) 19:59, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

• Unless I missed it, the lede doesn't mention that he played professionally on and off after his injury Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

• I have added some detail to the lede. How does that look? AA (talk) 21:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

General

• Holder shared in a last-wicket stand of 109 - a non-expert is going to have no idea what this means. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:58, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

• Changed stand to partnership and linked it to Partnership (cricket); also added "runs" after "109", so the reader can quantify what the 109 is. AA (talk) 20:04, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

• The BBC had a cricket team?!? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:58, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

• They did indeed. I think they still have a cricket team, though it is somewhat less influential in the London club cricket scene than it used to be. AA (talk) 20:04, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

• On Christmas Eve, he was overcome with "unbearable" and "agonising" back pain whilst getting out of bed; this pain did not pass, and he was referred by his general practitioner to a specialist, who diagnosed him with an inflamed sacroiliac joint - could we not simplify this to say he was diagnosed with the disease? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:58, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

• I have made that passage of text less wordy :) AA (talk) 21:21, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

• , having lost a yard or two of pace - casual. Unless this is a quote, just say he felt slower. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:58, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

• Done :) AA (talk) 20:58, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Review meta comments

• I'll begin the review as soon as I can! If you fancy returning the favour, I have a list of nominations for review at WP:GAN and WP:FAC, respectively. I'd be very grateful if you were to complete one of these if you get time. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:15, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for your comments Lee. I have addressed these. Please let me know if you would like any further amendments. Cheers :) AA (talk) 21:22, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

  @Lee Vilenski:, just wondering where the nom review is at, so giving you a ping! :) AA (talk) 22:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Status query

Lee Vilenski, AA, where does this review stand? As far as I can tell, Lee Vilenski hasn't returned to it since their most recent post over three months ago. There's a GAN backlog drive starting tomorrow that's concentrating on nominations by editors who are relatively new to GA, so they're out of the queue by 31 October. As far as I can tell, this is AA's first and only GAN submission, so they would qualify. It seems a shame to let this linger if it's possible to get it prompt reviewer attention. My thought is that if Lee Vilenski doesn't take action by Sunday, I will see whether we can get another reviewer from the drive to take over. Please let me know what you think. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:36, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset sounds like a plan, has been nearly 3 weeks since this message. AA (talk) 07:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

@AA: I will be taking over this review. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:54, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @BlueMoonset and @asilvering. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Also @Lee Vilenski. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

My mistake. Sorry, I've been super AWOL for the last couple months with some personal things. We're you happy to take this over, or did you want me to take a look? Sorry for this dragging on so long. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: I was planning on starting a little bit later today. Up to you if you want to retain this review or have me take over; I would be happy with either. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 17:29, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! -- asilvering (talk) 01:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Review by voorts

To come. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:59, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Cheers! Be nice to see this review reach a conclusion! AA (talk) 17:27, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments

• Please do another copy edit for grammar (particularly sentence structure and length) and concision of prose. See some examples of what I mean below.
  • Comment. @Voorts:. I have had a look through and done some restructuring, including adding new headers. Hopefully looks/reads a bit better :) AA (talk) 15:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
• He played as a fast bowler, though he was never coached to bowl, instead he taught himself by watching Wes Hall, Charlie Griffith, and Roy Gilchrist. This should be either: "bowl; instead" or "bowl. Instead,".
  • Done. Per your suggestion. AA (talk) 14:57, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
• Despite an increasing reputation in Barbados as a fast bowler, the social norms of the time restricted his progress at club level, though he did eventually join Central Cricket Club; though considered a team for White Barbadians, Black Barbadians who had attended Combermere were accepted. First, this sentence is too long. Second, "the social norms of the times" is quite vague. If this means "Black people weren't allowed to progress as high as white people in cricket", it should say so.
  • Done. I have broken this apart and also made it less vague, as the restrictions on progress by Black Barbadians is what Murtagh means by "social norms of the time". AA (talk) 14:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
• who relocated to England, with him initially settling => who relocated to England and initially settled
  • Done. Have reworded it to this effect. AA (talk) 14:52, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
• Despite retiring from the first-class game, Holder was persuaded by a friend in Lancashire to join the Lancashire League club Rawtenstall Cricket Club as their professional, and so he returned from Barbados to the North of England, where he relocated to Rochdale. Another long sentence.
  • Done. I have rewritten that part. Hopefully better now?! AA (talk) 14:52, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
• There's no personal life section. Is he married? Does he have children? Anything else important on that front?
  • Comment. I have found some information which says he has a wife and lives in Rochdale. He became active in the Rotary International movement. Magazine ref found for this. AA (talk) 14:41, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
• What is he doing now? Is he still president of a cricket league?
  • Done. The league folded after two seasons. I have added a ref for this. AA (talk) 14:41, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
• Assorted notes (spot check to come). voorts (talk/contributions) 19:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
• On a quick read, grammar/concision appear to be much better.
• The first mention of Holder in each section should be "John Holder".
  • Not done. I'm not aware that this is protocol. WP:MOSBIO says that after the first mention of the subject, only the surname should only be used, which was also the consensus on a recent FA of mine. AA (talk) 22:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

    Fair enough. Setting aside whether it's required at FA, it definitely isn't required for GA. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:00, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• When did he start at Combermere? When did he start playing nationally with them? Presumably when he was a bit older? When did he graduate? What year did he start working at the electrical store? Etc. More dates needed in that whole section.
  • Comment. He attended Combermere at the age of 11. This will be either 1956 or 1957, depending on which term he would start. So I have referenced the age, as to include a year would be WP:OR. As for the other dates, I suspect the book Combermere School and the Barbadian Society might hold the key to specific dates, but I can't login to view it as Internet Archive still seems to be having some issues after it was hacked. AA (talk) 22:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

    Do you have dates for the last paragraph of the early life section? They're all cited to Murtagh. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:23, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

    • Comment. Some dates. His playing for the BBC would have occurred in later in the 1965 season, though I can't seem to find an exact date and the BNA doesn't seem to hold any newspaper coverage of him joining the BBC Cricket Club. AA (talk) 22:13, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

    The preceding paragraph also cites Murtagh as well as the club historian. Any dates there? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:24, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

    • Comment. Unfortunately not, having reviewed the source and looked elsewhere. He would have played for Combermere in the National Men's League whilst still a student at the school, mostly likely in his last year. AA (talk) 22:13, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• Same for the Cricket career section. There's not even a date in the first paragraph.
  • Done. Dates added. Not sure when exactly he worked for Debenhams as there is not date given, but it was between 1966 and winter 1967. AA (talk) 22:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
• Ref 1 is not reliable. It currently redirects to a post on the Utilita Bowl website.
  • Comment. Not sure what you mean by this! The Utilita Bowl is the ridiculous sponsor name for The Rose Bowl, but it is the official website of Hampshire County Cricket Club. The article is written by Dave Allen, the club historian, so it is very reliable. AA (talk) 22:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

    Got it, thanks. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:57, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Ref 63 needs a timestamp.
  • Comment. I think it already has one: Agnew, Jonathan & Marks, Vic (22 August 2024). "Ask The Umpire – with John Holder". Test Match Special (Podcast). London: BBC. Event occurs at 38:48. Retrieved 24 August 2024. AA (talk) 22:28, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

    My bad. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:57, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Spot check to come after you've added dates per note above. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:44, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment. I do intend to run the IA bot, but it's telling me "The current estimated lag is 4127 minute(s) and 39 second(s)"... so I think I'll do that another time! (I'm guessing because IA is largely down, so is the bot?). AA (talk) 23:15, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

    I'm not sure what's going on with the bot. Archive links aren't required for GA, but I am a big proponent of them. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:54, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

    It appears to be working again! So fingers crossed! AA (talk) 22:16, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  • @AssociateAffiliate: I see you've added some dates. Are you still working on it or can I go ahead with the spot check? voorts (talk/contributions) 02:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

    Hi voorts. I'm still working on it, just waiting for Internet Archive to be repaired :( Happy for you to spot check the rest in the meantime :) AA (talk) 19:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

    Which sections are complete that I can spot check? voorts (talk/contributions) 22:45, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

    @Voorts. I have addressed your other comments. Sadly, the book I thought might help, didn't. Not sure I can extract much more from any other sources. AA (talk) 22:49, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

    @AssociateAffiliate: is the article ready for me to take another look at this point? voorts (talk/contributions) 22:52, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

    I think so! Thanks for your patience with all the IA goings-ons! AA (talk) 22:53, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• "Holder's winter coaching took him to Western Australia, " - when? Still might be other dates that need to be added. Please double check and ping me when you're done. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:26, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Done. I have added a date and expanded the sentences which cover this. AA (talk) 22:47, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Spot check

Review of this version. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• I do not have access to Murtagh (2016). Please provide brief quotations from the source that substantiate the article text for the following refs:
  • 3: His father owned a lorry and during the sugar cane harvest from February to June, he transported canes to the sugar factories. Sometimes John and his brothers were prevailed upon to help him get the truck ready and load it with canes. AA (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

    This doesn't support the date of birth. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:34, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  • 6: ...we shared, Winslow Skeet and I, a last wicket stand of 109 and won the match!" AA (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

    This doesn't support "Amongst Combermere's rivals were Harrison College" or that the match was in 1963. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:35, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  • 7: ...it used to be the club for the white plantation owners, but former high school [Combermere] boys who were black were accepted. AA (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

    Good. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:36, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  • 11: This page describes in detail his job, one passage to support this would be: Once the train had come to a stop and all was well, I'd open the doors for the passengers to alight (and various other sentences describing the role of a conductor). AA (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

    Good. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:36, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  • 14: Suiting the action to the word, he [Bertie Clarke] quietly had a word with his fellow Barbadian and at the time captain of Hampshire. AA (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

    This doesn't state that the "fellow Barbadian" is Marshall or that Marshall "invited [Holder] to Southampton for a trial". voorts (talk/contributions) 21:37, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

    Yes, but there wasn't another Barbadian captaining Hampshire at the time, so I'm not sure who Murtagh could be talking about, besides Marshall??? AA (talk) 22:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  • 15: "It rained solidly", John recalled, "and not a single ball was bowled". AA (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

    this doesn't support "Upon arriving at Southampton in May 1966, Holder was instructed to accompany the Hampshire Second XI to Wells to play the Somerset Second XI, " voorts (talk/contributions) 21:38, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  • 16a-b: (a). Besides, the Hampshire attack was settled... it comprised three seamers, Butch White, Derek Shackleton and Bob Cottam; (b). That is why he had given up his job on the Underground and turned down a post at the BBC to come live in Southampton. AA (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

    This doesn't support "He remained in the Second XI for two seasons, gaining experience and honing his technique". voorts (talk/contributions) 21:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  • 18: In 1968, John was finally qualified to play for Hampshire. AA (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

    This doesn't mention a "two-year qualification period". voorts (talk/contributions) 21:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  • 23a-b: a). I had been trying to do what I had been told, modify my action, and it didn't feel right. As a consequence, my accuracy went and it went all over the place. So I cut down my pace and wasn't nearly as effective". b). The next time he took the field was not until August. So this can become just 23 by itself. AA (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
    • Note: 23a is unnecessary since b covers both sentences.
    • This does not support "He was dropped from the Hampshire side". voorts (talk/contributions) 21:41, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
  • 26: The retirement of Derek Shackleton had great helped his cause, mind you.... when discussing his first team opportunities. AA (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

    Good. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  • 28: I could still bowl quite sharply... but a yard or two of pace had been lost... but believed he was never the same bowler thereafter. AA (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

    Good. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  • 37: "Welcome to South Africa, Sir," he said, "I hope you enjoy your stay in my country." How come? "Well, crazy as it sounds, I was classified as an honorary white man!" AA (talk) 23:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
    • Good. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
    • Note: paired with 1e.
  • 38: He joined Royton CC, where he spent two years. AA (talk) 10:55, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

    Good. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• 2a: Good per WP:ABOUTSELF; I believe this source to be marginally reliable because it is an WP:SPS platform, but I don't doubt the authenticity of this interview.
• 1c: Good.
• 2b: Good.
• 22: Could you please explain what he took five wickets in Somerset's first innings with figures of 5 for 96 means? I see that the source says that holder had 5 wickets and 96 runs, so I'm assuming that's the data that supports this?
  • Done. Have reworded it to make it clearer to people who might not understand the terminology. AA (talk) 11:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• 24c: Good.
• 25c: Good.
• 1d: The source does not state that Holder announced his immediate retirement from professional cricket upon realisation that his back injury made it impossible for him to continue playing.
  • Done. I have reworded to more closely match the source. AA (talk) 11:08, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• 1e(/37): 1e does not support the first sentence, but it supports the second.
  • Comment. Do you mean "In the winter months, Holder supplemented his income by taking coaching jobs abroad."? It was commonplace for professional cricketers (present and ex) to take coaching jobs abroad during the English winter, as they are only paid for half the year. Less so today, with the increase globally in T20 leagues. AA (talk) 11:25, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

    Yes, I was referring to that sentence. Neither 1e nor 37 supports that he supplemented his income through coaching jobs. It may very well have been common, but we need a source that supports it. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:19, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

    @Voorts: I couldn't find a direct reference, so I have removed "supplemented his income" from the sentence and reworded as: "In the winter months, Holder would coach abroad." Hope this is better :) AA (talk) 20:21, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• More to come.

@AssociateAffiliate: Just checking in. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 18:30, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Voorts! Just finished a stretch of night shifts, back on this now. AA (talk) 22:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. @Voorts: please find above my responses. AA (talk) 11:25, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Withdrawn. I don't have the time to keep going back and forth on this. Sorry. AA (talk) 22:06, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear that. If you ever want to revisit this article, please feel free to renominate and let me know. I'd be happy to finish where we've left off. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 22:07, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.