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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 00:32, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

State citizenship

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State citizenship (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Article makes numerous claims, citing laws, court cases, the U. S. Constitution, etc. Such claims, not directly supported by the sources cited, are piled together to make claims related to Sovereign citizens claims. Note "unique" interpretations of numerous terms and unusual titles for various documents (freely associated compact states is used to refer to all states, rather than PR, Guam, etc., "United States" vs. "United States of America", "Citizen" vs. "citizen", "Constitution for the United States of America (1787)" vs "United States Constitution", etc.). States are countries, we are told, and the U.S. government is a foreign corporation. Citizens of the various states are, we are told, not subject to federal law. And so on. Essentially, this article is an essay by one of the various movements. SummerPhD (talk) 18:38, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • So go back to this far less idiosyncratic version of the article and work forward again. Sometimes the solution to an article is writing, not nomination for deletion. It is not as if there aren't copious sources on U.S. constitutional law that deal with state citizenship and how the concept has been dealt with over the centuries. You could start with Vicki C. Jackson, Carmack Waterhouse Professor of Constitutional Law at Georgetown University, (Jackson 2001, pp. 130 et seq.) who discusses how the idea of state citizenship was gradually subsumed by federal citizenship. It took just over 20 seconds with Google Books to find; and that was just the first that came up.
    • Jackson, Vicki C. (2001). "Citizenship and Federalism". In Aleinikoff, Thomas Alexander; Klusmeyr, Douglas B. (eds.). Citizenship today: global perspectives and practices. Reference,Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series. Brookings Institution Press. ISBN 9780870031847. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help)
  • Uncle G (talk) 19:33, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Clarification - That "far less idiosyncratic version" is still an idiosyncratic essay. While that one seems to be more in touch with reality, it is completely unsourced. Throughout the history of the article, it has taken on various forms, none of which establish that this is a notable concept independent of the meanings assigned to it by the so-called sovereign citizens. Note that the initial version of the article was a list of case law citations. About a year later, it was someone's Gov 101 essay test (unsourced). An additional year later, some amateur constitutional lawyers had thrown some primary sources in. In January of 2011, a different amateur came in with their own spin of the primary sources. From my POV, that one takes considerable license with the sources. Long story short, I see no version with even one source other than a particular editor's interpretation of various cases, laws and the U.S. Constitution. Further, I am unable to find secondary sources with substantial coverage of "state citizenship" beyond the U.S. Constitution delegating the issue to the individual states and discussion of citizenship in individual states. It's as if we have sources discussing peas, corn, carrots individually and want to use them to write vegetable. Checking three state articles and Washington, DC and Guam, I find virtually no discussion of state citizenship, beyond isolated statements about "citizens". If there is a coherent, sourced article to be made out of any of this, I am unable to find it. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:21, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Wikipedia is not a US domestic encyclopedia. The concept of citizenship of a state is an important concept both in political theory and international law. Its application in relation to individual political entities should either be dealt with in a discrete section of an article on the general topic or in an article labelled accordingly. I infer that the present article is only talking about citizenship of individual states of the USA, but the opening statement seems to be both making general statements about citizenship of a state acquired through citizenship of another associated state and also specific application under the US constitution. --AJHingston (talk) 22:22, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as unsalvageable OR. (The reference list composed only of primary sources is generally a good tip-off for this.) Yes, state citizenship is a topic that could probably be written about, but in my view a vote of "keep, but remove all the content and re-write from entirely different sources" (which is what would need to be done) is not significantly different from a vote of "delete." Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:41, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Roscelese. Much of the content of this article consists of rambling original research, based on taking parts of sentences from various laws and court decisions out of context so as to come up with a fringe theory about citizenship in the United States. Well, arguably, this shouldn't be considered "original" research, because I saw a lot of similar content in Usenet discussions before Wikipedia even existed. But in any event, the current content is almost worthless. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:29, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad to see some reasoned discussion of this article. I tried to clean it up, but any editing I did was quickly undone by either Coquidragon or Exxess. I was unhappy that my sentence, "It naturally follows, then, that anybody born in Virginia or Pennsylvania after July 9, 1868 is a citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe part of a judicial opinion that doesn’t bear on the case at hand (dicta) has no value as precedent value. I also believe that opinions that were later dismissed have no such value. The author of this article obviously believes otherwise.

I started to do a note-by-note critique of the references, but it was draining far too much of my energy.

1. ^ a b c d e "28 U.S.C. > Part I > Chapter 13 > § 297 : US Code - Section 297: Assignment of judges. . .

This reference is provided to support a definition of state citizenship, but the reference is to USC Title 28, which deals with judiciary and judicial procedure. Title 48 concerns the freely associated compact states, but it is not germane to this article. The writer apparently thought the federal constitution was a compact among freely associated states. It is not. Chapter 18 of Title 48 covers the compact between the U.S. and Micronesia, Marshall Islands, and Palau, as does the Wikipedia article, “Compact of Free Association.”

3. ^ a b c d e Slaughter-House Cases, 83 U.S. (16 Wall.) 36, 21 L. Ed. 394 (1873) and Jones v. Temmer, 829 F. Supp. 1226, 1234-35 (D. Colo. 1993); SEE U.S.C.A. Const. Amend. 14, section 1.

As noted by SummerPhD, the U.S. Supreme Court gets the final word on the value of these cases. One thing you never see quoted from the Slaughterhouse Cases in these types of articles is this: “a citizen of the United States can, of his own volition, become a citizen of any State of the Union by a bona fide residence therein, with the same rights as other citizens of that State.” Compare the Wikipedia article “Saenz v. Roe.” What does U.S.C.A. stand for?

4. ^ a b c "28 U.S.C. > Part VI > Chapter 176 > Subchapter A § 3002(15)(A) : US Code . . .

This reference is taken out of context to support an unfounded assertion. Chapter 176 of Title 28 of the United States Code concerns federal debt collection procedures. The section given provides definitions solely pertaining to federal debt collection. It defines “United States” as (a) a federal corporation; (such as the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation), (b) an agency, department, commission, board, or other entity of the United States; or (c) an instrumentality of the United States. This definition allows the statute to refer to these entities as “United States” without needing to give the entire list each time.

5. ^ a b "U.C.C. > Article 9 > Part 1. § 9-307(h) : US Code - Section 9-307(h): Location of United States.". . .

This is a reference to the Uniform Commercial Code, which, as the Wikipedia article states, “is not itself the law, but only a recommendation of the laws that should be adopted in the states.” As far as citing it as a federal statute, I believe the writer has misunderstood. Article 9 covers secured transactions, and the particular section referred to merely gives the address to serve process if the United States has failed to pay what it borrowed from you. (Also, the UCC uses a capital S when referring to states in the United States; they must not know the difference between the United States and the United States of America.)

6. ^ a b c "The Constitution of the United States > Article I - The Legislative Branch > Section 8 . . .

Another reference taken out of context. The federal government has power over D.C., but it is not limited to D.C.

8. ^ "Rights under 42 USCS sect.1983 are for citizens of United States and not of state." -- Wadleigh v. Newhall (1905 CC Cal) 136 F 941

This case isn’t available on any free court case research page, but if you want to see the sovereign citizens come out of the woodwork, try doing a Google search on it.

10. ^ a b c d "28 U.S.C. > Part VI > Chapter 176 > Subchapter A § 3002(14) : US Code - Section 3002(14): Definitions". . .

This is another reference from Chapter 176 of Title 28 of the United States Code, which gives definitions of terms to be used when the feds chase deadbeats. Given that it uses a capital S, it undermines the argument made in the article. By this definition, state with a capital S can be any territory or possession of the United States, without the “of America” added.

11. ^ a b c "28 U.S.C. > Part I > Chapter 13 > § 297(a) : US Code - Section 297(a): Assignment of judges. . .

Again, this reference concerns who gets to be judge in a court in Micronesia, Marshall Islands, and Palau.

12. ^ a b c "28 U.S.C. > Part I > Chapter 13 > § 297(b) : US Code - Section 297(b): Assignment of judges. . .

Same reference, different paragraph. It doesn’t concern U.S. states.

I say delete it. If this information is necessary, it can go it the general articles concerning citizenship or sovereign citizens.

Grig541 (talk) 07:18, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep and clean. The problem as I see it is that there are two readings from the article, based on a poor distinction within the article itself. Also, I think that the addition of the so-called "sovereign citizens" label as it meaning the same as "state citizens" (without any reference whatsoever that such is true, the reference given being about definition of the former, not about the later) is not correct and has nothing to do with the article, at least with the second part of it. I don't know enough about constitutional law to speak about state citizenship under the US Constitution or state citizenship under the 14th amendment. I mostly concentrated on the 2nd part of the article (the one being deleted, no edited as claimed, by Grig541), which simply stated what I have being taught in school all my live. I am Puerto Rican. I am a US citizen, yet since I don't have state citizenship (based on residency) in any of the 50 states, I lack the right to vote either for Congress or the President, even though they govern over Puerto Rico. The right to vote is a right of the state citizens of the US, not a right of a US citizen. I could go on and on. I did not check the references given to see if they were true, but the article clearly talks about the reality of politics in Puerto Rico. I read the quote "The Commonwealth of Puerto Rico and the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands exist within the United States, outside the laws of the United States of America" as true based on a Supreme Court decision (I'm looking for the case name) in which the court said in not so many words that Congress decides which rights and which laws from the US apply in Puerto Rico. If you look at many of the legislation done in the past year, including the Health reform, there are stipulations about what applies and what doesn't apply to Puerto Rico or the other territories (since the reform applies equally to all states). I say clean the article of false referenced material, but the clarifications it brings are noteworthy. I believe the differences between state citizenship and federal US citizenship is worthy of a Wikipedia article. In addition, the first section of the 14th amendment reads "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.--Coquidragon (talk) 15:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This thing would go a lot easier if Coquidragon would stop removing my edits. Granted, he has a point about citizenship in Puerto Rico, but I object to his saying the references cited have anything to do with the text in the article and then calling my logical extension of one of the statements opinion. I apologize for the "compact state" entries, but I did that in frustration that nothing else I did would be left alone. Grig541 (talk) 20:52, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have not removed all of your edits. I did not touch anything dealing with the 14th amendment, as I am not knowledgeable about it. If you assume my good faith, you'll see that: I removed the "sovereign state" definition form the first paragraph, since it equates state citizenship with sovereign citizenship, and, even though some of the body of the article might follow "sovereign state" ideology (I don't know if that is so), there exist a state citizenship that has nothing to do with "sovereign" citizenship. The definition is out of context where it was, without further explaining, as there is no mentioning of the 14th amendment in that paragraph, as the 14th amendment has nothing to do with what state citizenship is, and as sovereign citizenship is indeed related to the amendment. You made several changes to the capitalization of many words. Besides taking out some of the redundant explanations (which were not yours), since there are indeed two uses of the word "state" in the same paragraph, the capitalization of one of the meanings against the other is a composition technique to prevent confusion. The wording seemed to me like an opinion. I apologize if it was not. "Following this logic (what logic), it naturally follows (not necessarily so)" Sorry if I was mistaken.--Coquidragon (talk) 21:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. — • Gene93k (talk) 23:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Law-related deletion discussions. — • Gene93k (talk) 23:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. It seems to me that this article is getting worse since this AfD started, not better. It used to be that most of the sources used were actual statutes and court decisions. Granted, they were being taken out of context and misinterpreted, but at least they had some legal standing in the first place. Now we're seeing inherently unreliable self-published sources being added, such as a personal web page on Angelfire. This article is in such poor condition that it would be best for people to stop editing it, let it be deleted, and then, if this topic is still considered worthy of an article, to start over from scratch. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:01, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I hinted above, under a new title, which is necessary anyway. If there is to be an article on citizenship of states in the USA it needs to make that clear in the title. It is very unhelpful to anyone looking for an article on citizenship of the state, a very important topic, to find themselves in a very muddled article that is almost taking that concept for granted. --AJHingston (talk) 10:18, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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