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November 18

Sin Tax on Goods of Inelastic Demand

Hello. If governments tax goods of inelastic demand to raise revenues, how effective are sin taxes on such goods? Quantity demanded will not lower by much for an extraordinary tax hike. Thanks in advance. --Mayfare (talk) 01:18, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

That's a big if. A meta-analysis of 1003 estimates from 112 studies finds that sin taxes are an effective public policy measure, because those things considered sinful have relatively elastic demand curves. The lead researcher commented that such taxes were "the most effective deterrents to drinking that researchers have discovered, beating things like law enforcement, media campaigns or school programmes" [1]. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:42, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, by definition, everything a sin tax is applied to is optional, survival and quality-of-life wise. No one's life ends up worse because they stop smoking, so if you tax the shit out of cigarettes, you expect the number of cigarettes sold to drop by a predictable amount, which it does. These sort of optional items are driven almost purely by pricing; if you raise the price demand goes down. That is the definition of elastic demand. Items with inelastic demand are things like gasoline; people need to get to work, so they aren't going to stop driving. They'll just spend less money in other areas of their lives to compensate. However, per the study cited above, and many other like it, if you raise the price of things like cigarettes and booze, people smoke and drink less. --Jayron32 03:06, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your reply, except that gasoline is also a quite substitutable good, at least in the longer run - people can car-pool, use public transport, buy a more fuel-efficient car next time they change cars, choose a job closer to home next time they share jobs, etc, all of which, at the margin, will reduce demand for gasoline if the price increases. Jørgen (talk) 09:10, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Except that experimentally, it turned out not to be true. If you look at a graph of gasoline prices, there's an interesting phenomenon. Looking before the turn-of-the-millenium events which affected gasoline supply (mainly the Iraq War and Hurrican Katrina), gasoline prices in the U.S. maintained at a steady rate of between $1.00 and $1.50 per gallon for most of the preceding decade. There were some spikes now and then, but the equilibrium price was somewhere around a buck and half per gallon. After the double whammy of Katrina and the outbreak of the Iraq war, there were some serious hits to the supply of crude oil and gasoline, and predictably the price went up; it spiked at times to almost $4.00 per gallon, but it sort of resettled at $2.50-$3.00 a gallon by, say, 2004 or so. It has remained effectively constant since then, despite a "return to normalcy" in terms of supplies, and people aren't driving less despite paying almost double today what they paid 15 years ago for gasoline (comparing gasoline prices to other measures of inflation, it has FAR outstripped price increases in other areas of the economy). That's a classic show of inelastic demand; the price doubles, and demand remains constant. What Katrina did for the gasoline retailers was to give them a chance to experiment with what they expected all along; Americans would bear a much higher price in gasoline; they just needed an excuse to raise the price to try it out. Considering what the U.S. pays for gasoline compared to the rest of the world, it is clear that gasoline was seriously UNDERVALUED in the 1990's (indeed, it probably still is). Now, I will grant you that at some point the demand for gasoline will become elastic. If Americans had to pay $10.00 or $20.00 per gallon, you can bet that they'd find alternatives to it mighty fast. --Jayron32 16:48, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

As a point of comparison, the current forecourt price in (my part of) the UK works out to about $7.30 per (US) gallon. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 01:02, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Footwear for speedsters

I watched the first episode of No Ordinary Family the other day. The wife has superspeed and seems to run in her everyday shoes. I realize the show is fictional, but I found it ludicrous that normal footwear, especially that intended for a business setting, would stand up to speeds in excess of 600 miles an hour. Tennis shoe tred would wear down only after a few moments. After reading the chapter on the Flash in James Kakalios' book The Physics of Superheroes, I started to wonder what type of material could be resilient and flexible enough to hypothetically create a running shoe (the boot and, more specifically, the tread) suitable for a "speedster". Does such a material exist? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 03:14, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Kevlar would probably hold up pretty well; that's what they use in fireman's suits, among many other uses. But you'd need something underneath it to make it sturdy enough for a running shoe; that I'm not so sure about. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:25, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Never mind the shoes - what about the runner's legs and feet? I've picked up a few injuries over the years while running at a stately 8 mph, despite the best technology that Mr Reebok can devise. Alansplodge (talk) 15:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I understand what you mean. I served in the U.S. Army 82nd Airborne Division for 3 years, and after running 4 - 5 miles every other day or so for that whole time, your feet and knees tend to get a little jacked up. But since this is a hypothetical question, the physical realities of running at superspeeds don't really apply. I am mainly interested in the shoes one would wear. Let's face it, a person running at that speed can't go bare foot unless they are invulnerable too. I think a few nails in the foot would bring somebody from 600 - 0 very quickly! --Ghostexorcist (talk) 15:38, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Can't they defy gravity, too - then the shoes will only have to handle air resistance. Air at the speed of sound will rip apart any cloth, but a solid piece of hard plastic will do it. East of Borschov 15:49, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

As James Kakalios explains in his book, they may have a wicked stride of almost 700 feet when running at 3,600 mph, but gravity will eventually take over. They must push off with their feet to provide forward motion. That plastic tread would wear down quickly. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Ghostexorcist -- In one of the first few episodes, the "Katie Andrew" character briefly lists several scientific problems with the "Stephanie Powell" character's powers, which seems like a sly wink on the part of the series producers/writers... AnonMoos (talk) 01:30, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Dinamo Zagreb

It is written: NK Dinamo Zagreb was a football club from Zagreb. Tuđman considered its name Dinamo to be too communist. No explanation is given. In my mind, the word "dinamo" has no political associations whatsoever. Why would Tudjman consider it "communist"? LANTZY^TALK 06:50, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Presumably because of the association with the Dynamo Sports Club which was the Soviet sports machine that produced all those Ivan Dragos. In a post-communist world, it would make sense that a club wishing to distance itself from communism would also want to distance itself from that name. --Jayron32 07:17, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Ahh, that makes sense. I was thinking it was something about the word itself, as if it belonged to that group of words which have acquired the heady aroma of Bolshevism: comrade, commissar, cadre, chairman, sickle, etc. (If anything, "dynamo" sounds a bit fascistic, like something Marinetti would call his football club.) LANTZY^TALK 09:41, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

A quick tot-up on the Dynamo (disambiguation) page shows 48 football clubs from the former Soviet Union with "dynamo" in their title. I'm not sure about Loughborough Dynamo F.C. though! Alansplodge (talk) 11:08, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I doubt that they really meant Soviet machine, especially in combination with comic stock like Drago. There was public reaction against their own past and their own socialist legacy. But in the end it was a personal decision, a point in FT's current politics of the period. East of Borschov 15:45, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The history page of the official club (Croatian language) only says the name was changed soon after WWII and the club was meant to be a communist surrogate for several former Zagrebian FCs, but this quick history on a Slovene page says the name was inspired by the name of the Moscow sports club (quote: " Zaradi dobrikanja s takratno Sovjetsko zvezo je bil 8. maja 1945 po vzoru na moskovski Dinamo ustanovljen Dinamo Zagreb, ki je v sebi združeval naslednika dveh dotedanjih največjih klubov (Građanski in HAŠK)." - "Due to sycophancy towards the Soviet Union of the time, on May 8th 1945 Dinamo Zagreb was formed, following the example of Dynamo Moscow, and it included the successors of the biggest two former clubs [in Zagreb], Građanski and HAŠK. I don't know how much the second source can be trusted, but it would appear Jayron is right. In addition, Borschov has a good point, too - I can't say about other ex-communist countries, but AFAIK at least in Slovenia and Croatia, there is (most notably on the right side of the political spectrum) a certain touchiness towards anything that might by even the most twisted turns of the mind be in any way or shape connected to the communist past. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:36, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, comrades. I was simply ignorant of the history of Eastern Bloc athletics. I assume that many share that ignorance. Perhaps the Tudjman article should be altered to provide a bit of context. LANTZY^TALK 07:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, well I learned something new as well. Until now I was convinced there must have been some electronics company called Dinamo somewhere, I didn't realize the name came from Moscow. After all, a great part of the mythology of ex-Yugoslavia had been about how the country had been independent from the oppressive Russians, and the names of sports clubs were usually of three varieties - if a club had been historically significant long before '45, the name stuck (case in point, Olimpija), then there were ones that had some evocative peoples'-republic-slogan-like name and then there were ones called for their major industrial sponsors (although quite often, the industries themselves had evocative slogan type names as well:), and since, as you point out, "dynamo" isn't exactly a communist buzzword, I figured it was called so for some factory or other. TomorrowTime (talk) 10:18, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Retail Merchandise Performance Hedging

Do retailer's usually have agreements with suppliers on liability for a product not meeting sales expectations? To illustrate what I'm asking imagine Mattel introduces a new doll and Toys 'R Us stocks them. First off would Toys 'R Us corporate review and decide whether to stock every new product or would there be a standing agreement between such major partners that they will stock all new products but with the option to review and refuse? Then assume the doll barely sells at all. Is Toys 'R Us stuck with the product or would there be some sort of agreement where Mattel would take some percentage of the loss for putting out an undesirable product? (with possibly the upside of gaining a percentage for excellent performance)? I realize with small retailers they would be stuck with whatever stock they got and have to sell at a discount to get rid of the excess units. But I'm wondering if with large retailers they have some sort of agreements that protect them from underperforming merchandise? In simplest terms - do large retailers hedge product performance somehow or do they ONLY diversify by stocking thousands of products? TheFutureAwaits (talk) 11:01, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Antisemitism and Israel

Is it just me, or has there been an increasing tendency to label people who find fault with policies of the Israeli government as antisemitic? Isn't the difference obvious? Or, is it just me? Perhaps my (limited) news feeds are out of whack. Just curious whether my impression is misguided or if there's evidence for such things, on an increasing level? I mean, really, I'm as far from antisemitic as possible, but I am no fan of the government of Israel (relatively speaking, and not relative to many of Israel's neighbors!). Is criticizing Israel becoming more synanomous with antisemitism? Pfly (talk) 12:25, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

This has indeed become a standard ploy of apologists for the Israeli government. There's some information in our article New antisemitism. Algebraist 12:31, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

It is strange that people criticize Israel at every occasion, for the most insignificant reason and deny its right of existence as a consequence of any action of the army. I do see some anti-Jewish bias here, be the criticism be based on true facts or not. (not anti-semitic, since Arabs are also semitics).--Quest09 (talk) 12:49, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Siege of Gaza = "most insignifant reason"? Thanks for proving the point of the OP. However, I'm not sure that there is an increasing tendency, it is the routine discourse of Israeli gov't for decades now. --Soman (talk) 16:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

And your point about Arabs also being Semitic is an example of the etymological fallacy. The word "antisemitism" and its relatives, certainly as used today, relates to Jews and Judaism. --ColinFine (talk) 23:29, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The difference often isn't obvious. It's a problem with the object of criticism is heavily identified with an oppressed or formerly oppressed minority. It's no more obvious than figuring out which of the critics of Obama are doing so because they honestly have intellectual differences with his policies, and which of them are reacting largely because a Black man in power makes them uncomfortable. It may even be the case that some of those making said criticisms don't know what is actually motivating them. The stakes of making that distinction are clear. If the differences are truly policy or intellectual in nature, then they can be engaged, taken seriously, reasoned with, and so on. If they come from gut hatreds, they cannot, and need not be engaged with. In the case of Israel, my own feeling is that a lot depends on where the people are from. In the United States, anti-Semitism is as far as I can tell practically a non-starter unless you are a complete "redneck." (Jews have, except in the craziest and most backwards of circles, fairly effectively become "white," so long as they aren't Orthodox.) In France and the Middle East, it seems to still be a big issue. The Middle East I understand (they feel they are under a war of occupation, and that makes everyone angry), France I do not. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:02, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I admire Israel deeply for this ploy. While they are small, they can cry antisemitism if anyone objects to them trampling over anyone else in the area, and when they are big (and, obviously, by that time multicultural) by that time no one can seriously cry "antisemitism" about Israel as a government for two reasons: 1) they are too multicultural, it would be a joke to make that cry. and 2) there isn't really much to object over, just as you don't see much objection of the United States for its domestic policy with native Americans: it's all in the past! So, I just see Israel doing exactly the same thing America did in its early expansion -- America appealed to the Christian God for its righteous mission of expansion, whereas Jews appeal to much the same. It's their homeland, and anyone who would take that from Jews is obviously anti-Jewish. They'll milk that while they can, and then they'll drop the whole matter (once they're big enough) and never mention it again. They're downright brilliant. 84.153.193.81 (talk) 16:53, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say that occupying Gaza is a minor issue. You twisted what I said. But everywhere in the world, the security forces make mistakes and sometimes shoot people by accident. However, if that happens in, say, Belgian, no one goes on claiming to dissolve the Belgian state. They still are recognized as something that can exist further. Most criticism against Israel is, however, in the direction that they should not exits.

I couldn't possibly be twisting what you said, because I didn't read it! I just read the original question, and not any of the responses. 84.153.193.81 (talk) 19:56, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Israel is certainly not doing to the Arabs the same as America did in the past to the Indians. They are certainly not in an open war against Arabs, even if the international press sold this idea to the whole world. Quest09 (talk) 17:40, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we live in different countries or read different media, but almost all criticism I see of Israel is in the direction that it should exist, but within its 1967 borders (the green line). There are, by the way, many (Flemish) people who want to dissolve the Belgian state, but that's a completely different issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 19:20, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there are a lot of Flemish people who would dissolve their state, if allowed. What you do not see is a lot of non-Belgians analyzing how unfair Belgian is as a state. The same applies to other European countries and their minorities Germans-Turks, Frenchs-Arabs, East Europeans-Gypsies and much, much more. The problems of Israel get much more attention than any other conflict or tension. Quest09 (talk) 21:46, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Quest09, you said above "It is strange that people criticize Israel at every occasion, for the most insignificant reason and deny its right of existence as a consequence of any action of the army." Who does that? No one in this thread is doing that. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 22:30, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I am not saying that fellow wikipedians are anti-semitic or are bashing Israel. However, every violent action of the police is often stamped as genocide by many media.Quest09 (talk) 17:15, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

So... According to your analogy, the Palestinians are a minority in Palestine? TomorrowTime (talk) 22:40, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Jews are a minority in the middle-East, surrounded by Arabs. Quest09 (talk) 17:15, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I see. But all the other minorities you describe don't have sovereign states of their own with police forces or armies so I still think your analogy is somewhat flawed. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:52, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

What I think you are describing, OP, is not new. I saw part of a documentary not too long ago, made by an Israeli, in which this general issue was addressed to some extent, specifically with regard to the Anti-Defamation League. I'll see if I can get a ref for that documentary, and try to recall better what exactly was said about this. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 22:30, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

It's certainly possible to be critical of the government of Israel (as many Israelis are) without being antisemitic. However, many of the people who criticize Israel are indeed antisemitic or exhibit antisemitic tendencies. This is evident when synagogues are attacked during times like the Lebanon War or Gaza conflict, or when, during the Durban Conference that was supposed to be about fighting racism, "anti-Zionist" activists passed out copies of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. This blog post shows that a Canadian anti-Israel activist's master's thesis talks about "Jewish privilege" and "Jewish racism" -- clearly the kind of things that can be described as antisemitic. Personally, I think the argument over whether a given anti-Israel zealot is or is not antisemitic misses the point. Being reflexively against any country, or the people from that country, is a form of bigotry, whether it's antisemitic or not. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:07, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Though it's worth noting that the terms of the debate are slanted towards those who would describe others as anti-Semitic as a means of terminating the discussion. I think that's part of what is being responded to. I can say, "I don't think there needs to be a specifically Jewish state, in the same way that I don't think there needs to be a specifically Catholic or Protestant state either." That doesn't mean I want to kick the Jews out; it means I think that religious and ethnic plurality should be enhanced and that the Palestinians should either be considered full members of the state or be given their own state. I can say that I think many of the policies by the Israelis are in fact motivated by a base racism against the Palestinians. Is any of this anti-Semitic? It would be convenient to say, "yes," because that means that nobody would have to take any of my opinions seriously. All of this is quite a far cry from the most extreme (e.g. genocidal or exiling) anti-Israeli sentiments, obviously, but I think are more common to the actual criticisms of Israel that exist in Europe and the USA. If the only non-anti-Semitic opinion is to be in favor of a "Jewish state" then there isn't a whole lot of room for "rational" dissenting opinion, which obviously works in the favor of those who are pro-Israel. It's of course convenient to point out that the most rapid members of any given cause are of course going to be the craziest, but to use it to discount all criticism (which I do think is done on a regular basis) is a huge logical fallacy. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:44, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Links? We don't need no stinkin' links!

Just deleting a copyvio and saw this. In particular the second paragraph of the "Intellectual property" section. Is something like that actually enforceable? Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 15:37, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Short answer: Probably not. Long answer: see Copyright aspects of hyperlinking and framing. The copyright aspects of linking have not been settled by the courts. The idea that you can link to anyone else's pages is largely an unwritten expectation without strong legal support. There are some cases in which arguments against "deep linking" have been successful. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:16, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. It seemed so odd. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 17:22, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Lions Clubs

--173.23.34.149 (talk) 16:54, 18 November 2010 (UTC)Is there a Lions Club in Ocean City, MD & if so how can I contact them?

I'm going to guess that if you ask google that question, it'll answer you. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:56, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Learnt depression

Is there any evidence that feeling depressed as a reaction to particular personal events is something leant rather than innate? Thanks 92.15.5.101 (talk) 17:46, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Who says depression is innate? Quest09 (talk) 18:46, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Bad answer. The querent is the one asking a question, and is asking for evidence. Please provide references. This is a reference desk. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I was not answering the question. I was asking a question myself about his suppositions. Who says that you cannot ask a question after someone asks you a question?Quest09 (talk) 21:37, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I read your tone as challenging the querent, rather than asking him or her to provide a link to explain the question further. Sorry if I am mistaken. Comet Tuttle (talk) 00:01, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Seligman's theory of learned helplessness is pertinent here.--TammyMoet (talk) 18:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

As is cognitive therapy. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Stock split and derivatives

Would the derivatives of a stock be adjusted accordingly if the stock is split before the corresponding derivative expires/matures? K61824 (talk) 19:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

lmgtfy[DOT]com/?q=derivatives+stock+split —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.153.193.81 (talk) 20:54, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes. The same goes for one-time "special dividends." Derivatives are contracts. Like all sophisticated contracts, they have clauses which cover obviously changed conditions unforeseeable at the time the contract was made, or foreseen changes that are delayed. 63.17.93.42 (talk) 03:45, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Identification of painting

From which painting does this image come from? http://forums.doyoulookgood.com/images/avatars/17482105464c16f55ef3695.gif

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.202.236.203 (talk) 22:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Orphan Girl at the Cemetery by Eugène Delacroix. MilborneOne (talk) 22:59, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Do the US Marines really kick recruits out of basic training at the drop of a hat?

A friend once said that if anyone sheds a tear while in Marines basic training, they can get kicked out of there.

I thought it was hard to get out once in; you don't give the 2 weeks notice to quit the military, you get out once your contract is up, or you get injured, or other major circumstances happen.

Crying (or even shedding a single tear FGS) isn't a "major" circumstance.

Would anyone corroborate on this? --129.130.252.150 (talk) 23:37, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

This article from Army Times says the attrition rate in the US Marines boot camp is 12 to 15 percent, so I'm going to say they don't kick recruits out for shedding a tear. Comet Tuttle (talk) 00:04, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

There's no crying in baseball the Marines! Clarityfiend (talk) 03:12, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

They really aren't interested in having unwilling and unsuitable service members so several reasons for " administrative separation"[2] (drug use, failure to get a security clearance, body fat standards, "convenience of the government for parenthood") but for those in boot camp there is "Entry Level Separation" for those failing to adapt to military discipline, culture, and work standards[3] 75.41.110.200 (talk) 04:24, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

This article breaks down the dropout rates further. Overall, dropout rate is about 10% for men and 20% for women. Because they have rather high standards to simply get into boot camp, the dropout rate is much lower than some may expect. -- kainaw™ 15:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Of that 10% and 20% what % was for those who made the decision to quit rather then getting tossed out against their will? Googlemeister (talk) 15:51, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

November 19

Why a special interest in bacon around January 30, 2009?

[4] shows peaks in searches about bacon for Thanksgiving and Christmas which is entirely reasonable because people who don't usually cook will get out the frying pan (and every other cooking utensil) for those special days, but it also shows a similar peak at the end of January, 2009. I'm mystified. -- ke4roh (talk) 00:19, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I seem to have found the answer to my own question. It was the debut of Bacon Explosion.[5] -- ke4roh (talk) 00:24, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Getting out of the military via wetting yourself?

Inspired by the question above (and not a request for advice at all - my water is held securely, thank you very much). Is it still the case that in the armed forces of the UK and US, that someone can get themselves discharged with a non-prejudicial service characterization *really* easily and quickly if they start intentionally pissing their beds and/or pissing their pants during the day, whilst claiming that they can't help it and that no, they're not doing it on purpose - at all?

I've heard 'this one guy who...'-type stories of this nature told by ex-servicemen from both sides of the Atlantic over the years. Does it still happen? Or have they started cracking down on that sort of thing now? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 05:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

. Do you have any documentation of this practice, or of the "crying and getting kicked out" practice noted above? The "I heard it somewhere from some guy once" is a notoriously bad way to find out true things. --Jayron32 05:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh yeah. Sorry - I was trying to clarify if this was actually true (I realize that I may not have made that clear enough in my OP). I had a Google around before asking but I didn't find anything definitive - mostly stuff from people who wet the bed and are worried about enlisting... --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 05:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Aren't there easier ways of getting pointlessly discharged? Although I suppose there are people who would rather be thought incontinent than gay... LANTZY^TALK 07:22, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Before I went through basic training, the Army asked me three pointed questions: Do you do drugs? Are you gay? Do you wet the bed? The last one was a surprise. —Kevin Myers 07:49, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Hopefully you were in the Army before the 90s. Googlemeister (talk) 15:14, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, back in the '80s, they asked. The directness with which they asked these questions was what made them so memorable. One wrong look or word, it seemed, and they'd make me sit on the Group W bench with the father rapers and mother stabbers. ;-) —Kevin Myers 15:42, 19 November 2010 (UTC) (Private, ret., ARNG)

(after ec)Possibly it is/was the case that being discharged from the service for outing oneself/being caught performing a homosexual act/etc. led to a poorer service characterization (than being kicked out for bed-wetting would) which would adversely affect future employment opportunities? Or it was overtly stated on the discharge paperwork that the person in question was a homosexual? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 07:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Could people, back at that time, avoid being sent to Vietnam by simply answering 'yes' to the question 'Are you homo' or 'do you do drugs?'. It seems preferable to me, even if it's a lie. Quest09 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:20, 19 November 2010 (UTC).

See Sexual orientation and the United States military#Late 20th century. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:43, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I think James Dean avoided military service by identifying himself as homosexual. LANTZY^TALK 02:55, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

When did the 1960s really begin?

Many writers and journalists have stated that the mythical '60s actually began on 22 November 1963 when President Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas. Is this true? As I recall, people in the US did have a 50s mentality until about 1964 when gradually yet irrevocably, huge social, musical and fashion changes began taking place. --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:29, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

In the UK at least, the mythical '60s certainly began earlier than that. I would say that one of the first signs of major social change was the lifting of the ban on Lady Chatterley's Lover in November 1960. The rise of the Beatles was also key; they had their first British no.1 hit in February 1963. Or, as Philip Larkin memorably put it: "Sexual intercourse began in 1963 (which was rather late for me) -- Between the end of the Chatterley ban and the Beatles first LP." --Viennese Waltz 07:37, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and didn't Mary Quant invent the mini-skirt in 1962? American girls (the trendy ones that is!) didn't start wearing minis until 1964. Another thing, the majority of Americans were conservative throughout the 60s. The counter-culture really only existed on the West and Northeastern coasts of the United States. Mid-America didn't know it was happening!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:41, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree that the majority of Americans were conservative throughout the 60s. If that were true, Kennedy would not have been elected in 1960. His election itself was a big indication that change was in the air. He was young, optimistic and light years away from the old guard epitomized by Nixon. --Viennese Waltz 07:45, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but Kennedy won by a very small margin. Many people were hostile to the fact that he was Catholic! And look at how many conservative Americans sent their sons off to Vietnam, and at the same time opposed the anti-war protestors. I recall the phrase "America, love it or leave it" being bandied about at the same time as "make Love not War" or the more bellicose "Hey hey LBJ, how many kids did you kill today". Of course as I was from west Los Angeles, near Venice, I saw the counter-culture taking place all around me.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict, responding to Viennese Waltz) That's probably pop culture hindsight bias. Kennedy was popular with young people, but he just barely defeated Nixon, who was only 4 years older. Nixon was reelected in 1972 with a far greater percentage of the popular vote than Kennedy got in 1960. Looking backward, after Vietnam and Watergate and JFK's assassination, it's tempting to underestimate Nixon's popularity and overestimate JFK's. The show Mad Men had some fun with this in the first season, with Don Draper describing one of the candidates in 1960 as a "young, handsome war hero", and referring, of course, to Nixon. —Kevin Myers 08:09, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I disagree that "Mid-America didn't know it was happening" — throughout the South, certainly, there was widespread hatred of, or at least contempt for, the hippies. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The Counterculture of the 1960s, by which most people mean when they say "The Sixties" had its origins in the late 1950s with the Beat Generation, which itself had its origins in the San Francisco Renaissance of the 1940s. Other key moments in the life of the 1960s counterculture, at least in the U.S. were the 1960 Harvard Psilocybin Project of Timothy Leary, which did a lot to introduce and legitimize the psychedelic drug culture, and The Beatles on Ed Sullivan in 1964. --Jayron32 07:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

True, the Beat Generation did play a large part in laying the foundations for the cultural explosion that erupted when the Beatles' BOAC plane landed in New York in 1964. We also need to mention the influence of early rock pioneers such as Elvis and Buddy Holly. It must be pointed out that the Beat Generation was a movement in California and New York, not middle America.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:14, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The sixties counterculture was a movement largely confined to the coasts. If you look at statistical figures, the coverage of the movement blew its size out of proportion. It was very culturally significant, but never really represented a large proportion of the population, or even a large proportion of the youth population. --Jayron32 16:27, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Hey guys, the 60s happened outside the USA too. HiLo48 (talk) 09:16, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes I already made that point in the very first response to the OP. --Viennese Waltz 09:45, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

And with respect to "middle America", I'm not that certain that they arrived there yet... ;-) --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:44, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Without meaning to sound Anglo-centric most journalists who document the 60s (as opposed to 1960s) describe it as a phenomenon which occurred on a British-Californian axis. The comments in the video documentary British rock affirm this.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

From my 80s teen perspective, we consumed "English" music without ever differentiating between British and US bands. It's very interesting that nearly all classic "big" rock bands are British - The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Who, Queen, Dire Straits, Status Quo, Pink Floyd. On that level, I can only remember The Beach Boys and The Doors from the other side of the Atlantic (and of course, both are from California). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

There was also the late great Janis Joplin from Texas. And let's not forget The Turtles!!!!!! It ain't me babe, I said no no no it ain't me babe.... And the Monkees! (Now how could anyone forget them and how they helped define the 60s!)--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:01, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Hey, a quarter of the Monkees was English! -- Arwel Parry (talk) 12:17, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Interesting observation, but the American contribution to rock 'n' roll should not be slighted. (In fact, it originated here.) It's just that more of the contributors tended to be known as individuals rather than bands -- Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly (and even though he was ambivalent about the label let's not forget) Johnny Cash. --Trovatore (talk) 10:05, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Let me add Ritchie Valens, The Big Bopper, Little Richard and Jerry Lee Lewis to the list.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:07, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

On the band side, I'll stack Jefferson Airplane, The Eagles, The Mommas and the Poppas, and Creedence Clearwater Revival up against the British-invasion bands any day. --Trovatore (talk) 10:15, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Now this is where you and I must needs part company. None of those bands can compare to the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Kinks, Animals, The Who, Cream, Blind Faith, Yardbirds, Small Faces, Troggs (whew I'm running out of breath), Gerry and The Pacemakers, etc. etc.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:18, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, come on. I'm a fan of The Beatles and The Who myself, but the Stones? They have nothing to compare to Victim of Love or Don't You Want Somebody to Love. --Trovatore (talk) 10:24, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Gimme Shelter,Satisfaction, The Last Time, Bitch, Sway, Paint It Black, Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Sympathy For the Devil, I Am Waiting, Cool, Calm, Collected, Off My Cloud.........etc etc etc etc. Actually while we are on the subject of the 1960s it might be worth pondering on how the 60s would have progressed had JFK not been shot in Dallas.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I just don't like 'em much. Lyrics and melodies both too simple and repetitive. Worth listening to every now and then in a mac-and-cheese kind of way. --Trovatore (talk) 10:39, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

On reflection, the Stones did have at least one good song, which was Ruby Tuesday. Shows the potential was there. So why did they keep turning out mindless crap like Satisfaction and She's So Cold? --Trovatore (talk) 21:42, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE, I think! Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:53, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Would you call brilliant songs like Let It Loose, Rip This Joint, Faraway Eyes, Shattered, Tell Me, Blue Turns To Grey, Stray Cat Blues, Moonlight Mile, Start Me Up mindless crap?????!!!!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:04, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Blind Faith! The Troggs!! Gerry and the Pacemakers!!! Come on - they were certainly regarded as little more than a joke in the UK.... But it is true that, in the early to mid 60s, the only US band to have anything like the same status in the UK as the British bands were The Beach Boys. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:48, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Then there were the balls-out hard rock British bands of the late 60s-early 70s such as Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple! These were far bigger in the US than Britain, though.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:58, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Were they? They were pretty big in the UK as well. Off out now... happy to continue this discussion at another time. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:00, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

No one has mentioned yet, the 6 yr economic cycle coinciding with the end of the post war recover period. The lower social/ economic classes for the first time since the war, found they still had money in their pockets after they had paid for food and rent. This is what drove the visible changes. The references to music etc. are just the tags your brain cells are using as place markers. Similar phases of music styles could be found for any era. This phases are the results and expressions of any era -- not the causes.--Aspro (talk) 10:49, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The 60s officially started in 1962 when the Rutles released their Hold My Hand/Number One single. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 14:25, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

What a love-fest going on here, I love it! I propose that The Sixties began in 1960 and ended in 1969, with a fuzzy boundary of +/- several years at either end depending on too many factors to list. I'd also say the period '67-'69 was roughly the "heart" of the era. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 14:52, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Without trying to sound like a curmudgeon, I predict that future historians will decide that "The Sixties" never happened, i.e. that it wasn't a particularly distinctive decade, as heretical as that sounds now to Baby Boomers. Less controversial, perhaps, is my belief that the 1860s and the 1760s were the far more important "60s" in American history. Peace! —Kevin Myers 15:22, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

As a professional historical curmudgeon, I would just like to point out that the popular conception that the important things in the 1960s were fashion and music and counterculture in general is probably misguided and nostalgic. I would rate the deep changes brought about by the Civil Rights Movement in the United States as being far more important than those things. I think the Vietnam War, and the fact that it became incredibly unpopular even amongst the mainstream "squares" by the end of the decade, was far more transformational than Woodstock or a few thousand hippies taking acid. I would also argue that a lot of the things we currently ascribe to the 1960s actually became "big" in the 1970s. I'd heavily recommend Nixonland for those interested in a more rounded, less "peace and love" view of the period. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:00, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Another great account of the sixties is Warhol's book Popism: The Warhol Sixties (Martin Scorsese called the book "A vivid re-creation of a great time to live and a great time to die.") P. S. Burton (talk) 08:41, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

The peace, flowers, and love aspect of the 60s probably ended in 1968, when everything became more politically-charged, violent, and less "All You Need is Love". I call this revolutionary period from 1968 to 1972 the "Easy Rider Era", with the Yuppies having supplanted the hippies.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 21:13, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I reckon the '50s ended on July 2, 1961, when Ernest Hemingway blew his face off with a shotgun. By default, that must have been when the '60s started. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:18, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

The 1960s were before my time but "The Unravelling of America" by Allen Matusow is a good book about their history. 69.111.192.233 (talk) 08:02, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

To me these are the defining moments (political, social and cultural of the 1960s) which I've tried to place in some sort of chronological order. Feel free to criticise my choices: 1. The election of John F. Kennedy in 1960. 2. The erection of the Berlin Wall in 1961. 3. Cuban Missile Crisis. 4. The Civil Rights March on Washington DC in 1963. 5. The invention of the miniskirt. 6. The Profumo Affair in the UK in 1963. 7. Assassination of John F. Kennedy on 22 November 1963. 8. The British Invasion of rock bands such as the Beatles, Rolling Stones, etc. in 1964 9. The escalation of the Vietnam War in 1965. 10. Colour television. 11. The Six-Day War in 1967. 12. The availabilty of the Pill in 1967. 13. Assassinations of Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy in 1968. 13. Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. 15. The student riots across Europe in 1968. 16. The first man on the moon in July 1969. 17. The deployment of British troops in Northern Ireland on 14 August 1969. 18. The festival of Woodstock a day later on 15 August 1969. 19. The Rolling Stones free concert at Altamont in December 1969 which spelled the end of the 60s and blew the cover off its myth.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:38, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

With the greatest possible respect, that seems a highly US/UK-centred and culture-specific view. The African independence movements - set off by Ghana in 1957 - were hugely important internationally, as were events like China's "Cultural Revolution". "The invention of the miniskirt" doesn't really rank as high, in my view. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:53, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Of course the miniskirt was important. It served as the first manifestation of women celebrating their female identity and their sexual liberation from the restrictions imposed for centuries by men. The Pill was another.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:11, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

It was important to young women in the west. Not to older women, or men (at least, not directly), or people in other cultures. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:18, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

The 60s saw women working outside the home and young girls thinking of careers other than becoming a housewife. It was watershed decade for feminism and women's sexuality.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:25, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but you could argue that was as much due to people like Betty Friedan and Germaine Greer as Mary Quant. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:30, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Two other events I had overlooked were China's Cultural Revolution and Telstar, the first communications satellite.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:27, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

The only accurate answer is Jan 1, 1960. Attempts to define a cultural era are obviously massively oversimplistic. But if I were to name a date for this "era" to begin, it would be May 17, 1954 with the Brown v. Board of Education verdict. Also see Southern Christian Leadership Conference. Wnt (talk) 00:44, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Albanians pro-American

Does anyone know why out of all the nations in Europe, Albania is the most pro-American of the lot?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

What evidence do you have for that assertion? --Viennese Waltz 10:38, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The warm reception George W. Bush received in Albania while incumbent, as well as Albanians I've met (quite a few).--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:55, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The oversimplified answer: NATO. The Albanians and their brethren in Kosovo would be dead and fertilizing Serb gardens if not for NATO military intervention. Hence all the streets named after Bill Clinton. The Albanians know which side their bread is buttered on. It ain't buttered by Moscow and Belgrade, that's for damn sure. If you owed your very existence to the United States, you'd probably be pro-American too. (Of course, the United States was moved only by altruism...) LANTZY^TALK 10:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Come to think of it, it's an interesting exception to the usual "West versus Muslim" configuration. Where the Balkans are concerned, it's less a matter of Christian vs Muslim as it is Russian vs NATO. Religious loyalties surrender to geopolitical considerations. I recall Solzhenitsyn making some comment about NATO being "exactly the same as Nazi Germany." Even an anti-Communist couldn't help but line up against the old enemy of the Soviet Union. LANTZY^TALK 11:14, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

As of fairly recently, Clinton also has a statue in Kosovo. But yeah, Lantzy is spot on. TomorrowTime (talk) 12:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

So what you're basically saying it's gratitude. Well I live in Italy and they seem to have largely forgotten how the US savied them during WWII judging by the anti-American sentiment I encounter nearly on a daily basis. LOL. One woman told me we had war in our DNA!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:14, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Nobody is holding "Tuscany is Serbia" rallies. To this day, Kosovo is existentially dependent on the NATO powers. The pro-American stance of Albanians has nothing to do with gratitude and everything to do with Realpolitik. The Serbians, on the other hand, are quite romantic. They've been feeling gratitude to Russia for hundreds of years, for purely spiritual reasons, even though Russia has (in the best times) offered them little more than moral support. LANTZY^TALK 12:29, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Not exactly; the Eastern Front of World War I began with a Russian declaration of war on Austria-Hungary in response to their declaration of war on Serbia. Serbia fell anyway, but surely they would have fallen far faster if the entire Hapsburg military had been concentrated on Belgrade. Nyttend (talk) 04:14, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Hm. Well, bear in mind the Albanians are in danger as we speak, while the US intervention in WWII happened, well, during WWII, 65 years ago. TomorrowTime (talk) 12:47, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

And as for "war in our DNA", I suppose that's entirely accurate, as long as the "we" refers to homo sapiens! It's pretty rich for an Italian to accuse another nation of congenital belligerence, in light of all their Caesars and Borgias and Mussolinis and what-have-you. LANTZY^TALK 12:48, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I think that much of pro-Americanism in Albania can be explained by her anti-American propaganda in Enver Hoxha era. Situation is the same in any other country that has and has had the anti-American progaganda. And vice versa, you have anti-American feelings in countries that have American-backed governments. I think it's a rule of thumb, with exceptions though.--Omidinist (talk) 16:04, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure it really works that way. Yugoslavia had its share of anti-American propaganda (the usual "decadent bourgeoisie West" song and fiddle) and yet there is no real love lost between the people of the succeeder countries and the US. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:16, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Kosovo cemented feelings but Albanian gratitude to America goes back to Woodrow Wilson. The European Great Powers had created Albania in the first place after it was divided by the Balkan League, largely to keep it from becoming Serbian, which would give Russia the use of their Mediterranean ports. They later agreed to dismember Albania in the London Pact which they confirmed among themselves at Paris before Wilson vetoed it. So the US is remembered as being responsible for the continued existence of an Albanian state after WWI. Speaking of Italy, it continued the occupation of Albania until it was defeated in the Vlora War but did occupy Sazan Island until after WWII. --JGGardiner (talk) 21:29, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Capital of the Kingdom of Dalmatia

Was Split or Zara the capital of the Kingdom of Dalmatia? P. S. Burton (talk) 12:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

• 
  Zara as capital
• 
  Split as capital

Hm, well, the article in the Croatian wikipedia says Zadar (i.e., Zara, which is the Italian name of the town), and so does this page: http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/kuk_dalmatien.htm (in German) TomorrowTime (talk) 12:54, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Also, the map you linked with Zadar as capital seems to follow no particular standard for names of cities - on the one hand Zadar is in Italian, then you have Trieste and Ljubljana in German, and Prague is in English. I suggest you harmonize the names in some manner (if the map is your work, of course). TomorrowTime (talk) 12:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I am not the creator of the map. Could you help me with the correct english names of the states and the provinces. Since it is a historical map, the names might be different. P. S. Burton (talk) 16:05, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

At first glance, the names of all of the territories look fine. The list in that map seems to match the list here: Austria-Hungary#Linguistic_distribution. --Jayron32 16:22, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Hm... I'm no historian, I was just commenting on what I noticed. But if we take into account the names probably most commonly used during A-H times (which, to me would make most sense), then I can't find anything amiss other than Vienna and Prague being in English - these should be Wien and... I don't know about Prague - Praha, probably, if its Czech name was used and Prag if the German one was used. The discrepancies I mention higher up fit in with this as well - Ljubljana was in a province where German was the official level language, as well as Trieste, whereas Zadar was further South and I can see how the Italian name could have been used. It also has the Hungarian name Agram for Zagreb, which is again, what the town was called officially at the time. I'm talking about the file with the name "Austria-Hungary map new" here. I don't have any idea how the more northern towns may have been called and if any are out of sync with their official names of the time. Really, someone more competent than me should weigh in on this, I'm really just dispensing stuff that I sort of know here. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:34, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Except this is the English Wikipedia, so maps used here should use the most common name found in English language references, see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). I see nothing wrong with a map to be used in an English language article using Vienna and Prague and Zara, as these are the most common English names for those cities. Occasionally, multiple names are used in English for the same city in different time periods (c.f. Pressburg and Bratislava) so we may follow that convention, but as far as I know, Vienna is always called Vienna in English, regardless of which time period you are referring to. --Jayron32 17:41, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Reasonable enough. But in that case, I'd insist that Zadar is more common in English than Zara, Trieste more than Triest, Ljubljana more than Laibach and Zagreb more than Agram. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:56, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

In this vein, Brünn should be changed to Brno, Troppau to Opava, Lemberg to Lviv, and Czernowitz to Chernivtsi. Marco polo (talk) 21:08, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I think we have to recognize that there is a difference between say Prague and Vienna on one hand (having established names in English) and Lemberg/Lviv and Brünn/Brno on the other. In the latter case, we should use the name used officially at the time. Zagreb, Zadar, Brno, Opava, etc. do not have distinct English names. --Soman (talk) 16:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Sure they do. Open up the CIA factbook and look up, let's say Croatia and see what the capital is listed as, Zagreb or Agram. I'm not de facto opposed to using the historical names, but I think the map should go full length in one or the other directions - either have all the names in their historical form, or use them as we use them today. Mixing the two just seems sloppy. TomorrowTime (talk) 18:40, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

No, there is a difference. 'Prague' is a distinct English name. English and French are the only major European languages which uses the name 'Prague' for Prague. In the case of Zagreb, the Croat name is used in English as well. However, that said, I'm not sure mixing different sets of presenting names is a good idea. One idea might be to use the then official names in the map, with current English usage names in brackets. --Soman (talk) 19:34, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good enough. One advantage to that would be to give people a better feel for what towns exactly are being referred to - I'm sure more people have heard of (and would have at least some grasp on the location and importance of) Zagreb than Agram. Heck, I didn't know Zagreb used to be called Agram until a couple of years ago, and I live in the neighboring country. TomorrowTime (talk) 19:45, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

For map revisions, see Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Illustration workshop. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:55, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Children of Mary the mother of jesus

Jesus had brothers as per mathew 12:46-50.Are they really borned to Mary his mother?If they really His own brothers why not they take care of her after the death of jesus christ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomas Rufus (talk • contribs) 16:47, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

It depends on which strain of Christianity you adhere to. In some faiths, notably Roman Catholicism, see Catholic views on Mary, that Mary was not only a virgin when Jesus was born, she was a virgin for life, see Perpetual virginity of Mary. Those faiths take the term "brothers" and "sisters" to refer to cousins of Jesus. Many protestant faiths do not follow the Cult of Mary and do not place as much emphasis on her character as a perpetual virgin, so they are willing to take a more literal interpretation of the passeges that mention Jesus's siblings (or more properly half-siblings); that is that Mary and Joseph had children after Jesus, and these later children are the brothers and sisters mentioned. As far as caring for Mary after the death of Jesus, its hard to say. In the first case, Mary was not an old woman when Jesus died; most accounts have her as a teenager, say 14-16 years old, when Jesus was born, and Jesus died in his mid 30's; that would have made Mary in her early fifties; while people died younger in the past they didn't become older faster, a woman in her fifties was perfectly able of caring for herself as she is today. Furthermore, there is no biblical evidence that Joseph had even died yet, the bible sort of ignores Joseph after Jesus becomes an adult, but it never actually "kills him off". As far as the relationship between Mary and her other children, the bible is pretty mum on that. The only sibling of Jesus that gets more than a passing mention is James the Just, who, among other things, has coverage in the Gospels, in Acts of the Apostles, and as the possible author of the Epistle of James. I am not aware of any direct interaction mentioned in the Bible between Mary and James the Just; though, of course, that doesn't mean there wasn't any. The bible does cover a very limited time frame, and is not comprehensive on the lives of its characters; even Jesus's life is only covered in detail for 3 or so years. --Jayron32 17:10, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

It should also bear mentioning that John the Apostle was specifically charged with the care of Mary; John is not counted among the siblings of Jesus, he's the son of Zebedee and brother of James the Greater (one of three important Jameses, and not the James that was Jesus's brother). John was clearly part of Jesus's inner circle, together with Simon Peter and John's brother James. John was often identified as "the apostle that Jesus loved". Perhaps in granting special care over Mary, Jesus was signifying his special role in the Church, much as Simon Peter was given charge as leader of the church after Jesus's death, John was named to lead Jesus's family. --Jayron32 17:32, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe it's a popular Catholic teaching that Jesus's siblings were Joseph's children from a previous marriage, thus his step-siblings. However it's perhaps also worth considering that Joseph does not appear at all in the earliest gospel, Mark: Jesus is referred to as the son of Mary and is given brothers and sisters, but no father is mentioned. In the later gospels mention of Joseph is retconned in to the scene where Mark calls him the son of Mary, but he only appears as a character in the nativity narratives in Matthew and Luke, and both give him totally different genealogies. I think it's entirely possible he's a late addition to the tradition, and that the early Christians knew very little about Jesus's family. --Nicknack009 (talk) 18:01, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The Greek for "brothers" is adelphon while "cousin" is anepsios. These terms are not used loosely in The Bible, such as at Matthew 12:46 (brothers) and Colosians 4:10 (cousin). These scriptures show the terms are not used indiscriminately. Jesus' brothers (adelphon) were "not exercising faith in him" (John 7:5), therefore these brothers were not his spiritual brothers. John 2:12 splits his brothers from his disciples into distinctive groups. This interchange of "brothers" and "cousins" is "credited to Jerome... and fail[s] to cite any support... in later writings he waivers his opinions and even expresses misgivings" (Insight On The Scriptures, v. 1, p. 370). Why, then, did Jesus entrust the care of his mother Mary to John instead of His fleshly brothers? The answer is that John had proven his faith. There is no evidence to suggest that His fleshly brothers were yet disciples. It was only after Jesus' resurrection that His fleshly brothers began to exercise faith in him (Acts 1:14).
As a side note, the virginity of mary is mentioned insofar as being "until she gave birth to a son" (Matthew 1:25). Also, the reference of Jesus as Mary's "firstborn" indicates she had other children (Luke 2:7). schyler (talk) 20:27, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

That is of course, an interpretation based on a largely protestant theology. Other strains of Christianity have their own, entirely consistant, theology which comes to a different conclusion about passages refering to Jesus's family. --Jayron32 20:57, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Details of New Testament genealogy and biography are more neutrally considered to be examples of what has been termed "historicized narrative." Adjustments have been made to fit developing dogma, such as the perpetual virginity of Mary, which has taken its cue from the apocryphal Infancy Gospel of James.--Wetman (talk) 23:14, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

There's also the interesting interpretation that the New Testament as we know it was mostly written, and certainly selected, by the Pauline Church (run by St Paul who never met Jesus-the-man, source of all the 'you don't need to be Jewish' stuff), which was relatively hostile to the Jerusalem Church (set up by Jews who feature in the Gospels). This means Jesus's family are inevitably going to be dissed or made less important, especially if you buy that James the Just was Jesus's brother and one of the early leaders of the Jerusalem Church. But I think this view is probably as speculative as most, for all that it explains why the disciples are portrayed as so hilariously slow in the Gospels. 86.163.213.68 (talk) 23:42, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Are we still capitalists?

Although most people are fascinating by what money can do, isn't it more reasonable to call are social-economical system something like 'informationism'? At the first glance, everything we do depends on information (even earning and managing money). Mr.K. (talk) 17:27, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Information economy? Even so, it's still fundamentally capitalism. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:28, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Captialism means, at its heart, private ownership of the means of production. If the thing produced is "information", if the companies producing that information are privately owned, then its still capitalism. --Jayron32 17:34, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict with Jayron) Capital (economics) need not be a physical good. Information can still indeed still be capital, even if it's not a machine in a factory. Buddy431 (talk) 17:37, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

See also Corporatocracy.--Wetman (talk) 22:41, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I am not quite sure I agree with some definitions of capitalism. Indeed, it could mean private ownership of the means of production, but, currently in some societies any one has access to the means of productions (i.e. PCs and the like). There is not a class of capitalist, who control the means and exploit another class, who only own their working force. There is an increasingly class of people how own the machine (PC or whatever) and can be considered workers (by any meaningful standards). That makes our system different to that system, at the beginning of the industrial revolution that Marx described. What is the point of using the same name for that and for this system? Mr.K. (talk) 00:53, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

These workers are still private individuals, which is distinct from a planned economy. A criticism of central economic planning is the economic calculation problem. The difference in efficiency between individuals making their own decisions, and a central authority attempting to micromanage these same decisions, could (weasel words) be picked out as a defining difference between capitalism and socialism; of course, western countries exercise a degree of socialism and public ownership of this, that and the other, and I know of no pure capitalisms, unless it's worth mentioning the chaotic Somalia (or perhaps for precision that should be northern Somalia, in the past). ...If you do take central planning vs. individual decisions as the defining difference, then you're quite right; it is all much more about efficient information flow than about amassing great quantities of physical capital. This isn't some new quality of capitalism introduced by the computing age, though. The same observation could have been made in the 19th century. 213.122.60.193 (talk) 13:10, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

I would say that the U.S. seems more capitalist than ever before — in the sense that it now feels like useful production comes from capital, rather than coming from labor. It seems like humans, whatever their skills, are a useless waste product unwanted by any country on Earth, except among corporate circles as a ploy to drive wages yet lower. This could be couched in terms of "overpopulation", but the definition of that depends on what resources are available. The fewer hands in which the capital is concentrated, the more the others seem "overpopulated". (Note: by capital I mean not just factories and mines, but fishing quota rights, broadcast licenses, taxicab medallions, invitations to the White House press pool, access to university library subscriptions, and a vast variety of other such intangibles).

The developer of the company Clicks Agent was a teenager working in their bedroom, who sold it for $40M. So I assume it didnt require any capital to start. 92.15.15.224 (talk) 11:35, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Baseless accusations Allegations against Julian Assange

Changed "Baseless accusations" to "Allegations" pending source saying the accusations are baseless. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 01:08, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Sweden is generally liberal, so why are they acting like a puppet of the Pentagon? --75.33.217.61 (talk) 21:16, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Swedish judiciary isn't working on direct order of the Swedish gov't. So, 'Sweden' isnn't really doing anything in this case. There is a prosecutor who has issued an arrest warrant for Assange, that's all. --Soman (talk) 21:21, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

And on what authority do you call the accusations "baseless"? Are you on intimate terms with Mr Assange? This is not the place to prosecute a case for either the defence or the prosecution. That's what courts are for. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 22:03, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Does Sweden have a "presumption of innocence" deal? I suggest the word "Baseless" in the title be changed to "Alleged" in any case for our purposes here. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 22:16, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, no. that accusations are being made seems real enough, I suppose, though I have not been following along too closely about them. What I mean is change "Baseless accusations" to "Allegations". WikiDao ☯ (talk) 22:18, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

When a person who is inconvenient to powerful forces, is suddenly accused of an infamous act, it does tend to raise suspicions. On the other hand, I suppose that persons in such a circumstance do occasionally commit infamous acts. The matter warrants careful public scrutiny, but not prejudgment. --Trovatore (talk) 22:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree. No one on here likely knows the facts of this sort of thing. The other matter not brought up is that sometimes extra effort is made to discover infamous acts for people who it would be convenient to discredit (e.g. Eliot Spitzer, whose takedown was almost surely politically motivated to some degree, though that doesn't make him any more guilty). --Mr.98 (talk) 22:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Assange got a lot of exposure after his wiki-leaks. Imagine that his hypothetical victims just saw him on TV and decided to press charged once they knew who he was? Definitely possible = not baseless. Mr.K. (talk) 00:58, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

In Sweden, you can give consent, then change your mind retroactively, making it rape. Specifically, if, later, you realize that you wouldn't have given consent if you had known earlier what you knew then, you can then cry "RAPE". That's exactly what happeend to Assange: his women said "If I had known I wasn't the only one in his life I wouldn't have consented!!" Obviously, Sweden is a fucked up place. 92.230.69.215 (talk) 09:57, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Nil Einne (talk) 15:54, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Humanities84.153.227.35 (talk) 15:57, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not finding any evidence this is legal under Swedish law. The fact that one party has made the claim this happened doesn't make it legal under Swedish law as the OP alleged. (BTW, as we've discussed several times before, rape by deception is a crime in some jurisdictions, there's just no evidence so far it's the case in Sweden, or even that this is what the prosecutors are claiming.) Also I don't see how anyone here knows what happened as 92 seems to imply. I suggest people refrain from claiming something happened in the way they allege without hard evidence if they don't want this thread to be deleted. Nil Einne (talk) 16:01, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I do not believe that rape by deception is defined as you state above. According to this definition any form of sexual contact could be construed as rape. A woman could (and they indeed do that) claim: 'I didn't know that you were a complete idiot before we had sex.').Mr.K. (talk) 22:51, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Bess, you is my Woman now

Who composed Bess, you is my Woman now? Περσεύς|Talk to me 21:47, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

We've no article just for that song, but our article Oh! Carol: The Complete Recordings, 1955–66 credits Ira Gershwin/George Gershwin/DeBose Heyward. Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:53, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It was written by George Gershwin, Ira Gershwin, and DuBose Heyward, from opera Porgy and Bess. --Jayron32 21:54, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

On Royal Titles

So today there has been a big noise about whether or not Camilla will ever be the Queen Consort or merely the Princess Consort. It made me think, though apparently 'centuries of tradition' dictate she should be Queen Consort the current Queen's husband is known as Prince Phillip. Does that mean he is a Prince Consort, and if so was there any special reason for that which may not apply in this case (or indeed, apply this time too)?

Many thanks, Prokhorovka (talk) 23:44, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

This question came up, and was answered, here a few days ago during the discussion on Prince William & Kate Middleton. --ColinFine (talk) 00:45, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Britain doesn't have a tradition of "Kings consort" (indeed, they are very rare, see King consort). Because a husband automatically took control of his wife's posessions, the husband of a queen became King jure uxoris (Latin for "By right of his wife"). Philip II of Spain was King of England under this principle. He was not well liked, which is why he is usually omitted from official lists of English Kings. William III of England was named king directly by parliament, specifically to avoid being merely king jure uxoris. After that, all British Queens regant have had "Prince consort" as husband (Anne, Victoria, Elizabeth II). --Jayron32 01:26, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Not so. Prince Phillip may be the Queen's consort, but he is not the Prince Consort. That title was last applied to Queen Victoria's husband Prince Albert. It was apparently considered for Phillip back in the 1950s but it was decided not to give him that title. Neither was Queen Anne's husband Prince George of Denmark designated "Prince Consort". As far as I can tell, Prince Albert has been the sole holder of the title-- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 02:39, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you all, and sorry for the unnecessary question. Prokhorovka (talk) 15:31, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Not at all. There are no unnecessary questions - except maybe if you're a troll, but I see no evidence of that. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:13, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I hide it well. Prokhorovka (talk) 20:17, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

November 20

Mystery Medal

I'm looking for identification and translation of this medal, possibly dating from WWII:

Images

Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. -- 74.137.105.0 (talk) 00:35, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Hm. I can't say anything, but the golden bit is vaguely kamon-like, but then the factory motive would in this day be most easily associated with Communist China, but could also be an early industrialist Japan motive. Can't say anything about the angel. The wording underneath is, funnily enough, in two styles - the left most character is 章 and written in the regular printed CJKV characters, and the middle and right one are in a stylized "ancient characters" script that I can't read for the life of me - maybe someone else here can do better. Incidentally, I suspect it's highly likely read from the right to the left, and since (at least in Japanese) the character 章 means either chapter in a book or a badge/emblem, I'd say this is the emblem of some society or other. A membership badge or something like it. That's all I can tell for now, maybe someone else can have a go at the seal script - it looks fairly simple and should be readable to someone even vaguely familiar with it. TomorrowTime (talk) 05:50, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Seems to me more like the figure on the Brandenburg Gate or other (neo-)classical victory angel ("Nike") than anything oriental... AnonMoos (talk) 12:10, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed - this[6] is "Victory" on the Wellington Arch in London. Looks pretty similar including the laurel wreath and four-horsed chariot. Does anyone recognise the trefoil or Triquetra symbol in the small golden disc? A Celtic knot or a Japonese Mon (emblem)? Alansplodge (talk) 16:37, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Has anyone looked at the second picture and tried to translate the writing on the back? DuncanHill (talk) 16:42, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

習勤章 壹ケ年習勤 昭和八年度 東洋レーヨソ 株式會社 滋賀工場 — Medal of hardworking —

One year of learning and practice, The year of 1933, Toyo Rayon Company Limited, Shiga Factory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toray_Industries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiga_Prefecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mon_(emblem) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chantaiman2 (talk • contribs) 16:49, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Chantaiman2. There is an image of the mon on the Toray website at [7]. DuncanHill (talk) 17:00, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I never even realized there was a backside picture :) And there it is, the mystery seal script from the front side: 習勤章. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:26, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Where can I see the backside picture? I think 習勤章 is wrong. There's no such word in Japanese. It must be 皆勤章/賞. And 壹ケ年習勤 should be 壱ケ年皆勤. Not レーヨソ, but レーヨン. I think it's a medal given to someone who had a perfect attendance at work in 1933. Oda Mari (talk) 19:15, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

The backside should be available in a link on the frontside's page, however you can access it directly here. -- 74.137.105.0 (talk) 19:35, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you all! This has been quite informative. I don't know how the medal got from there to here, but at least I now know what it is. -- 74.137.105.0 (talk) 19:35, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the link. I checked a paper dictionary and found out 壹 is a variation of 壱. The meaning is the same. The letters looks like seal script. Maybe that is why 皆 looks like 習 and is different from this font "皆". Oda Mari (talk) 20:04, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

壹 is the standard Chinese complex version of 一, but I've never seen 壱 in a Chinese context. Steewi (talk) 02:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Atheist's Golden Rule

Anyone ever hear of the "Atheist's Golden Rule", which is to "Do in the present what you want to remember in the future as having done in the past." --96.252.208.240 (talk) 01:36, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

We have an article on the Golden Rule, which discusses it from many perspectives, though not specifically from that of atheism that I could see, except perhaps to some extent in the Criticisms and responses to criticisms section. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 01:48, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I am more interested in a comparison of each rule and their criticisms and note in that respect that the Criticisms and responses to criticisms does not mention the easy (and perverted) application of the Golden Rule by pedophiles who apply it to children as meaning that it is okay to touch the gentiles (spelling error corrected) genitals of children because that is what a pedophile wants children to do to them. --96.252.208.240 (talk) 02:38, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, all platitudes such as the Golden Rule suffer from analysis; by defintion platitudes work in the general, but tend to break down in the specific. Your personal version of the golden rule you stated above suffers from this as well. One could come up with many situations where your personal rule above could lead a person to do harm rather than good. --Jayron32 02:49, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Although not my rule it does fall into the category of misapplication but if you go further with the Golden Rule than if you misinterpret then misinterpretation will be visited upon (or at least invited to visit) you. --96.252.208.240 (talk) 03:16, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

96.252.208.240, see gentile - it basically means a person who is not a Jew. Nothing to do with genitals. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 03:56, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

See Freudian Slip. schyler (talk) 05:26, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

...in the world, not of the word... --96.252.208.240 (talk) 15:20, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure why that would have to be an exclusively atheist golden rule. Is there anything specifically atheistic in it? And vice versa, I see no reason an atheist shouldn't follow the original golden rule - in fact, I think a lot of atheists do. TomorrowTime (talk) 10:03, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Matthew 7:12 for reference. I agree with TomorrowTime. This "Atheist's Golden Rule" sounds like avoiding regret to me, which, if one failed to do so, would require something like Repentance. schyler (talk) 14:16, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Or at least the negative/prohibitive form. Most atheists that I know make a strong distinction between the two forms, probably because they are tired of people assuming that they have the same desire for treatment as everyone else. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:18, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

96.252.208.240's formulation is a bit long-winded, too. You could cut it down to: "Don't do anything you'll regret." Also, I found "The Platinum Rule" interesting: "people should treat others as those others would like to be treated." Also, Google turns up a lot of hits for "Atheist's Golden Rule" but no single one seems formally endorsed by "Atheism" as a whole, for whom anyway I suppose it would be better called a "Golden Heuristic" to distinguish it from some supernatural "commandment". That said, I do not see why it would have to be all that drastically different from other, non-atheist formulations. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 14:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Atheists when asked seem to have little other resort except to say that apart from consideration that they themselves are God that time or gravity runs a close second. This rule seems to support the former, namely time. --96.252.208.240 (talk) 15:25, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Atheists don't have/believe in a God, and so would not say that they themselves, time, or gravity is God. Have you read our Atheism article? WikiDao ☯ (talk) 15:43, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

The problem with all wiki articles is that the moment after you download and while you are reading the article it can change. Have you read this article? --96.252.208.240 (talk) 15:55, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Certainly one should never take WP to be the Word of God. ;) That's a nice page at that link, how is it relevant to your OQ and the answers to it so far? (If it is that you are using WP just to push a point-of-view, please don't do that – we have enforceable guidelines about that sort of thing. Thank you.) WikiDao ☯ (talk) 16:09, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

...the belief in fact versus fiction. Atheists may not believe in anything specifically as a deity but suggest that belief in logic is superior to belief in God. By our actions for instance few of us would ignore freezing weather and remain outside in such weather without clothes. The article, to a degree, explores the ultimate direction of logical thinking and holding it above a belief in God. Hence, perhaps logic can be thought of as the atheist's God? 96.252.208.240 (talk) 16:39, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps some atheists may (implicitly or explicitly) hold such a view, but there are many kinds of atheists. Our Atheism article says:

"Some of the ambiguity and controversy involved in defining atheism arises from difficulty in reaching a consensus for the definitions of words like deity and god. The plurality of wildly different conceptions of god and deities leads to differing ideas regarding atheism's applicability. The ancient Romans accused Christians of being atheists for not worshiping the pagan deities. In the 20th century, this view fell into disfavor as theism came to be understood as encompassing belief in any divinity."

So, it is going to depend on what you understand a divinity to be as far as how you conceive what it is that an atheist does not believe in. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 16:57, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

The article suggests divinity as being that entity "...capable of reducing an infinite number of logical equations having an infinite number of variables with an infinite number of states to minimum form instantaneously and be the first entity to do it..." assuming logic is the ultimate criteria upon which everything is based? In other words, it does not matter what you believe or think or say what you believe in but rather what actions existence forces you to take despite thinking or belief? 17:36, 20 November 2010 (UTC) --96.252.208.240 (talk) 17:40, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Are you asking or asserting all that? If asking, you should ask the author of the article at wikia.com what that person meant. If asserting, please see WP:SOAPBOX, and in either case please try to limit discussion in this thread to responses or pertinent follow-ups to the original question. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 18:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

You say atheist believe in nothing which seems to mean that they only go by facts. So what facts do they go by? The fact that time passes by, that gravity rules the universe or that belief in logic is superior to belief in God or all three? In other words, I'm asking what rules atheists? 96.252.208.240 (talk) 12:23, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

The same thing that rules all people, a mixture of instincts, passion and rationality. To elaborate: You are asking a question that would require excessive generalisation in order to answer it. Atheists are not a homogenous group of people nor are atheism a single school of thought. It varies from individual to individual, much like with most religious people. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:38, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

You may be encumbered by a notion of a hierarchy of known absolute facts, as opposed to something open-ended and network-shaped, like critical rationalism, where all facts are subject to fallibility and of uncertain and context-dependent importance. Hope that made things clearer. :) 213.122.60.193 (talk) 13:37, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

That's the problem... I know of no mariners who say, "We do not need a light house for we can tell where the rocks and the shore are by watching for white caps and surf and hearing the sound of breaking waves." 96.252.208.240 (talk) 23:59, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Mariners today mostly use GPS, which incidentally, like the lighthouse, is a man-made invention. Do you have a point with your analogy, or can we close this one as having moved into the realm of proselytising now? --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:49, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I am quite satisfied to part with the notion that atheists have no rules to steer them clear of danger and destruction unless of course you or anyone can enlighten me further. 96.252.208.240 (talk) 19:45, 22 November 2010 (UTC).

What ever would have given you "the notion that atheists have no rules to steer them clear of danger and destruction" in the first place? There are an awful lot of atheists that seem to do so just about as well as everyone else on a daily basis.

I would strongly recommend that before discussing this further you read through our article on Atheism – and then, with specific reference to what it says there, ask further questions about atheism here. Regards, WikiDao ☯ (talk) 20:01, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

What rules did the Epicureanists or other atomic materialists have to protect one's soul from danger and destruction? 96.252.208.240 (talk) 21:20, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Buddha was an explicit atheist, and so was Confucius I think, and they both came up with a Golden Rule different from the one Jesus supposedly did. 66.65.142.101 (talk) 01:31, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

hi

my brother not intrested in studies? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.82.96.22 (talk) 07:14, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Have you looked into Alternative education for him? --Jayron32 07:25, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Or a work release program?--Wetman (talk) 14:04, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

How is that relevant, Wetman? WikiDao ☯ (talk) 14:19, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Study is interesting if what you are interested in is studied. schyler (talk) 14:10, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

And your sibling is your brother if your sibling is male. 84.153.227.35 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:54, 20 November 2010 (UTC).

First English child in The New World

It appears that two people carry the same title. Virginia Dare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Dare) and Peregrine White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrine_White) both carry the description as the first English child born in The New World. Which one is the "real" first child.Twokamprs (talk) 13:04, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

We have an article First white child... -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:10, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

(e/c)Virginia Dare was born in 1587, and Peregrine White in 1620. White was the first born to the Pilgrim Fathers, but they were not the first English settlers - that was the Roanoke Colony, where Virginia Dare was born. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

say you have an eye for real estate and renovation... and $10k

So, my wife is a real estate and renovation champ. She can always spot an awesome location and bring out a huge amount from it. The owners are so happy they usually waive rent for a few months. But, we're only in our twenties and don't have much capital, like $10k. I was wondering: where in the world could you buy a house for $10k, that has modern cities and infrastructure so that we could put her skills to use? I mean, due to local buying power, that $10k would be more like $150-$300k in real estate buying power. I'm open for anything, though I'd think places like Brazil, or India would be most likely. Even within these locations, which cities are the best candidates?

Basically, this is a finance/economics question, about modern cities with good healthy growth rates (since real estate prices are usually tied most closely to net income) but where $10k will buy you a shabby house you can renovate and flip. Thanks so much!! 84.153.227.35 (talk) 14:48, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

It might be a good idea to stick to a market you know - you might run into unforeseen problems in foreign markets, plus the return is probably going to be low as well. If you are confident in this, you could consider getting a loan and going into this seriously right where you are. (Incidentally, your post reminded me of The Buddha of Suburbia, a novel by Hanif Kureishi, in which the narrators family does this for a living: they buy a run down flat, redesign it, sell it at a profit and use the profit to buy a new one and to live on for the next year or two, while they redesign this next flat). TomorrowTime (talk) 15:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

In the U.S. Rust Belt there are certainly plenty. Cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Akron, and others have hundreds of houses available for next to nothing; many are foreclosures. In Cleveland alone, according to Zillow this morning, there are 30 single-family houses on the market for between $1,000 and $5,000. Before grabbing one though you'd be advised to look at the local situation in detail. Some of these are likely to rebound in value if the economy improves. Antandrus (talk) 15:29, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much for you help, guys, but I want to clarify two things. First, and most importantly, our most important criteria is a burgeoning local economy with very good job prospects for everyone and high growth rates in the economy. I said this. Why is this so important? Because house prices depend most strongly on salaries and the health of the economy. So, the places with foreclosures and 20% unemployment are the exact OPPOSITE of the kind of market we're looking for!! Let me say this. I'm not interested in the U.S., where a really healthy vibrant fast-growing city where everyone wants a house, means prices are like $150k-$1 million depending on the market. I want a vibrant, fast-growing market, in a country where the purchasing power is much higher (cost of living much lower), such as the "BRIC" economies (Brazil, Russia, India, China). Secondly, I do not want to get into any kind of debt. I want to buy a house outright, do our magic on it, as I've personally seen my wife perform half a dozen times, have the value double, and sell it, all within 3-5 months. This is what we're capable of. If I had $100,000, I would buy a house in California, maybe. But we have $10,000 right now, I'd like to buy a house outright in a place with low unemployment, very high growth, and where that kind of money buys you, say, a very nice house downtown, but one that we see good prospects in improving. Thanks for any actual economic insight you have on the world's thousands of cities not in the United States, Western Europe, Japan or the like. I'm talking South America, or Eastern Europe, or Asia, or northern Africa, or whatever. Thanks again. 84.153.227.35 (talk) 15:51, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

You're suggesting following the herd. But this is likely to mean jumping on the band wagon just before prices crash. The way to make money is to forsee the future: "buy on despair, sell on euphoria". You get the best bargains when nobody else expects things to turn around. When its clear they have turned around and things are improving, then its usually too late, prices have already risen. 92.15.27.119 (talk) 18:25, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

(OP here). Um, that is VERY good advice for any kinds of securities. Buy when theres blood on the streets. What youre missing here is that I am not buying securities, I am planning on investing major work INTO a property. So a better analogy would be, I am an executive and have a chance to get BOTH equity and a salary. I want to know what the prospects of different companies are, so I will get equity that, together with the amazing VP work that I do, will really give me return on my equity. Or, lets say I am a watchmaker, and pick up a shitty watch to repair. Before I spend three months of labor repairing it, I would like to know if I can sell it afterward! So, while your advice is VERY good for equity where you cant make any kind of direct improvement, it does not apply to my question. Thanks for trying. (Sorry about no special characters in this reply such as apostrophes.) --194.196.95.89 (talk) 18:56, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

You're also forgetting gearing. Use your money as a 10% deposit. When prices rise 10%, you've doubled your money. The "$300000 worth of real estate for $10000" applies to what you find in Detroit, if the details on Zillow are to be believed. They are giving them away. 92.24.181.96 (talk) 23:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I was going to suggest Belgrade as an up and coming business hub of Southeastern Europe, but then I checked real estate prices there, and from a brief glance they seem to be a bit steep for your price range. Oh well, maybe someone else will have a better suggestion. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:34, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks anyway. This is my experience too, I hear good things about up-and-coming areas of the world, but, in fact, real estate is a bit rich for my blood. Thanks for the tip anyway! Anything anyone else has along these lines is very welcome... 84.153.227.35 (talk) 17:47, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

You mentioned finance/economics so this is technically OT but have you really thought this thorough? Someone mentioned culture shock, but more then that, coming up with a list of countries is fine, but have you considered the difficulty of doing what you're trying to do? Many countries restrict what foreigners can do, buying property is often one of those restrictions. A quick search suggests in India if you aren't a citizen or non-resident Indian, you have to be resident in India (meaning for more then 183 days a year) something you can't do without a suitable visa. You may be better off in Brazil where from what I can tell you can own property. But even so, if your wife is doing her wonders, there's a fair chance this won't be allowed on a tourist visa, plus this will limit the amount of time you can stay there whatever the case. If you have enough money or some high demand skills (likely with some good experience to go with it) or whatever you can often get suitables visas to work in most countries if you try hard enough but considering your age and as you agree $10k isn't much, it's probably not going to be easy, if possible with what you have. However brillant your wife is, without something substanial to show for it it's not likely to count for much. Also the culture shock is not just about you adjusting to life there and the problems communicating if you don't know the language/s. Someone already mentioning "stick to a market you know", but beyond not understanding what's good to buy and the possibility of being ripped off when you're in a country with little knowledge; buying materials, negotiating with vendors etc is not likely to be easy. And even what you do to the house to spruce it up is likely to vary from what your wife does where you currently life. Consider that you are to some extent competing with very low cost even if relatively unskilled labour (in Malaysia for example just knocking down a house and building a new one is fairly common). Then there's also those dealings with the lawyers, bureaucrats etc. These will add to your cost and complexity. For example I know in Malaysia you generally have to pay a bribe to the land office if you want them to process any transfer fast and even then it takes about 3 months. (+1 month before you get your deposit, this means it may be about 4 months from selling the house to getting all the money.) IIRC you are originally from Australia but with UK (or Irish?) citizenship and currently resident in Germany, sticking in the EU may be a decent bet. These are only a small set of the pitfalls and problems you're gonna need to consider and I would suggest you consider them before you start to consider what places. Nil Einne (talk) 20:58, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I recall seeing a tv programme about someone doing this in Morocco I think, so its not impossible. 92.24.181.96 (talk) 23:11, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

India? Goa? Costa Rica? Morocco? Tunisia? "Have the value double" is the difficult part - my guess would be that this only happens in an affluent country with high prices, where consumers have the luxury of buying based on appearances rather than fundamentals. I think you are going to have a lot of culture shock - the rest of the world is very different to the US. On the other had, you could try a country that is starting to open up to Holiday home tourism, like Morocco or Tunisia, buy a run-down house and after renovation and modernisation sell it to a tourist as a holiday home. You are likely to be asking for the impossible - all the attributes you've listed do not exist in one place. 92.15.27.119 (talk) 18:08, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

In a few parts of France you could pick up a derelict barn to convert. But only in a few parts, and only just. Expect to spend many more thousands renovating, but at your own pace. Just getting an architect to do the plans will cost at least 1K euros. Wouldn't it be better if one of you worked and earned enough to borrow on a mortgage, then you can buy in the UK for, say £60K (Stoke-on-Trent? Hastings?), and gradually work your way up? Itsmejudith (talk) 23:45, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

If we on the ref desk knew where to buy real estate that would double in value in 3-5 months, I think most of us would be out buying properties right now instead of answering questions. Googlemeister (talk) 15:48, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Or doing both. 92.15.6.86 (talk) 11:47, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

The mention of culture shock up there reminded me of one more thing to look out for - people in a completely different part of the world might not appreciate your work the way people in your country do. There's no accounting for taste. I remember watching American Chopper quite regularly, because I enjoyed seeing the construction of the bikes in action (didn't care all that much for all the make believe drama, but hey), and while the process was fascinating, I almost always hated the finished product - the bikes were (to me) just plain tacky and really cheap looking with all the unnecessary bells and whistles. And talking to my friends about this, I was far from the only one to feel that way. But since apparently they sell well in Orange County, I figure the people over there just feel differently about what makes a chopper look cool. TomorrowTime (talk) 13:37, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Hope you know that that's Orange County, New York, not the more famous west-coast "OC". And I doubt whether they sell many of their fancy prestige motorcycles locally... AnonMoos (talk) 08:59, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Swiss military

Switzerland is always neutral, so why do they need an army? --75.33.217.61 (talk) 20:55, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Well to state the obvious, Switzerland is unlikely to be neutral if someone tried to invade them. Nil Einne (talk) 20:59, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I suppose they do hope for some measure of deterrence.

Our Military of Switzerland article says: "Because of a long history of neutrality, the army does not take part in armed conflicts in other countries, but is part of several peacekeeping missions around the world."

There also seems to be a sizeable group of people, the Group for a Switzerland without an Army, who support a Switzerland without an Army. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 21:40, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Nuetrality is not a guarantee that you won't be attacked. Poland, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxemburg, Denmark, Norway and Greece were all nuetral in 1939/1940 but were invaded anyway. The USA was nuetral when the Pearl Harbor attack started. Alansplodge (talk) 21:49, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

("Neutral.") From the Japanese point of view, the US was not neutral except by name. They were doing all sorts of things that made it clear whose side they were on, even though Congress had not declared war. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:54, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed but it works both ways. Spain's nuetrality clearly favoured the Axis (they even sent a division of volunteers to fight the Soviets in 1941) but they weren't attacked by the Allies. Switzerland made sure they were useful to the Axis by providing no-questions-asked financial services. Alansplodge (talk) 12:55, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Poland was member to Franco-Polish alliance (1921) and Anglo-Polish military alliance. The latter may be viewed as a last-minute attempt to deter Germany, but still it's far from being neutral. East of Borschov 20:29, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

See armed neutrality (although the article is very stubby). Neutrality does not imply pacifism. -- 174.24.198.158 (talk) 20:19, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Switzerland during the World Wars details many of the actions of the Swiss military in armed neutrality. They believed they were defending Swiss sovereignty, presumably, by not letting anyone who wanted just ignore the fact they were there. - Jarry1250 ^{[Who? Discuss.]} 20:33, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Costa Rica has no military either, but that didn't prevent them from sending in "armed police" to the territory that Honduras declared theirs, the other day. Corvus cornix_talk 20:32, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

November 21

Elective Monarchy to Hereditary Monarchy

It seems like all the monarchies of Europe were at one point ceremonially elective (ex. Kings of the Anglo-Saxons had to be elect and early Kings of France had to crown their children to ensure their succession) but then they became hereditary. How come the Holy Roman Empire was never fully able to transit into a hereditary monarchy? The title remained in the Habsburg family for hundreds of years.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 05:15, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

One of the possibly contributing factors, and this is just speculation on my part, was the lack of an identifiable capital city. England had London, and France had Paris, and all of the other nominal "cities" in those nations were quite smaller. The King of those countries, who resided in the largest city, and thus controlled it, was clearly the most important figure of it. The nominal capitals of the HRE were probably Aachen or Frankfurt, but none of these served as the seat of government; the Emperor usually resided in whatever his familial homeland was, or perhaps a nearby free city or bishopric. The Habsburgs made their seat Vienna, but that was merely because of it being the most important city in the Habsburg hereditary lands. The assembly of nobles, the Reichstag, tended to meet just about anywhere. What this means is that the Emperor was never able to consolidate power in any one location, to "call his nobles" to his court, if you will. The English nobility and French nobility spent a sizable amount of time in London and Paris respectively, often at the courts of the King. In the HRE, since there was no capital, they pretty much spent most of their time in their own fiefs, which is why they had so much more control over those lands, and why the nobility in the HRE tended to become more powerful over time rather than less, as was happening in France and England. Since the HRE nobility tended to stay home, those individual fiefs became semi-autonomous from the Empire itself. This lack of centralization meant that it was in the interests of the nobility to keep the monarchy elective; to prevent the sort of centralization of power that occured in Paris and London. --Jayron32 06:02, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Another possible reason for the decentralized nature of the HRE was the uniquely German institution of the Stem duchy which did not exist in other parts of Europe. These duchies were essentially the settled Germanic tribes that occupied the land that made up the HRE. These stem duchies generally had the right to manage their own affairs independently of the monarch; that tradition likely influenced the sort of arrangement that led to the uniquely elective nature of the HRE and functional independence of its member states. --Jayron32 06:11, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

The Kings of Poland were elective, and Poland had a capital. It just became a tradition. But then, the nobility of Poland were notorious for ther me-firstism. The Sejm required unanimity, not just a majority, or even a super-majority. Corvus cornix_talk 20:36, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

The Irish always elected their kings.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:20, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

The trope of a king acclaimed by the "people" is a common element in the founding myth of many peoples, always looked back upon as a sample of pristine tradition in archaic times: take the convention with a grain of salt and judge the uses to which it is being put in the contexts in which it turns up. "Why" didn't the Roman Empire ever fully establish inheritability either? Whose expectations are being expressed in such a question?--Wetman (talk) 17:45, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Do most people admire their boyfriend/girlfriend?

By admiration, I mean admiration for a person's personality, talent, or intelligence--in the same way that one would admire a hero, for example. Admiration for a person's appearance doesn't count.

Does this vary across gender? Is one sex more likely to choose mates who are "better" than themselves?

Of course I have a lot of anecdotal evidence, but I want to know if any academic studies have been done on this. --140.180.14.145 (talk) 09:40, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe there's some evidence people may initially have difficult seeing their partners faults as the parts of the brain responsible are semi shut down, I'm having trouble finding a good source but see [8], [9], [10] which discuss this somewhat. If your up to it, you can try reading the original article [11]. This doesn't mean they admire their personality, talent or intelligent, in fact my impression is the ability to critically analyse someone is affected so even though you don't see their flaws so well you may not really see what makes them good either. In any case, this doesn't tend to last more then 2 years in to a relationship Nil Einne (talk) 16:13, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Define admiration, if you would. Then think, "how many people actually admire anyone or anything", in the sense that you have just defined. My guess is, the majority will just shrug their shoulders (I would). Even if a particular culture has a concept of "admiration", and it does not discourage speaking about it in public, not everyone there actually practices it, and some will just refuse to talk about it. And, of course, nothing beats mother nature: emotional life changes with hormone level, there's no way around it. East of Borschov 16:02, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

In the beginning of a romantic relationship men and women tend to view their loved one through a pretty pair of rose-tinted glasses, hence the term Love is blind. As time passes, familiarity sets in, then boredom and annoyance. What once attracted instead becomes an irritant, and a sexual turn-off.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:10, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

European Union legislation: How much is codecision, how much is consultation?

Title asks the question. What fields or what particular supranational subjects are prone to the EU's consultation procedure, and which are handled through the codecision procedure? These seem to shift bit by bit with each treaty, with more and more becoming codecision. Is there an available chart online?

Thank you much in advance! 88.90.16.74 (talk) 13:20, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Google [[12]] is your friend[[13]]. Codecisions involve both parliament and the council agreeing on an action; consultation (used in agriculture, taxation, competition law) is when a proposal from the commission reaches the council and the latter then consults parliament, the European Economic and Social Committee and the Committee of the Regions. Assent, the third type of decision (not mentioned in the OP) is where the Council has to obtain parliament’s assent before certain decisions are taken. It is a yea/nay vote, with no amendments allowed.DOR (HK) (talk) 08:37, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Classic autobiographies

What classic autobiographies or memoirs are worth reading? For example I enjoyed reading the first part of Maxim Gorky's autobiography, and will read the other parts when I can get them. I also enjoyed The Autobiography Of Benvenuto Cellini. Thanks. 92.28.244.180 (talk) 17:47, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Father and Son by Edmund Gosse is an absolute gem of a book. Interesting, funny, sad, and beautifully written. DuncanHill (talk) 17:54, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Usama ibn Munqidh wrote a book that is sometimes called "memoirs". Paul Cobb's recent translation (titled "The Book of Contemplation") is a good read. If you like Cellini you might also like him (although Usama lived several centuries before Cellini). I also enjoyed Goodbye to All That by Robert Graves. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:35, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

A few more - both Boy and Going Solo by Roald Dahl are worth reading. The Diary of a Country Parson by James Woodforde is fascinating and moving, Paupers and Pig Killers by William Holland also, and those two make a good pair - two very different men in the same occupation at about the same time. Anthony Blond's Jew Made in England is fun. DuncanHill (talk) 23:52, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

And of course. Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T.E. Lawrence. DuncanHill (talk) 00:07, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

The Education of Henry Adams; Personal Memoirs of Ulysses S. Grant. —Kevin Myers 03:05, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

And an older but memorable one: The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin. PhGustaf (talk) 03:32, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Not a classic yet, though I suspect it may become one Autobiography of Mark Twain, published recently in full for the first time: see here. Definitely on my reading list. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:45, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Good-Bye to All That is a very good read. P. S. Burton (talk) 17:42, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

In French, the Mémoires d'Outre-Tombe by François-René de Chateaubriand, the memoirs of the Duc de Saint-Simon, and those of Giacomo Casanova (Histoire de ma vie) are all classics. The Words by Jean-Paul Sartre and Memoirs of a Dutiful Daughter by Simone de Beauvoir are popular modern examples in the genre. --Xuxl (talk) 18:14, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

The Pulitzer-winning Angela's Ashes is fantastic, easily Frank McCourt's best work. The film version stuck remarkably close to the source material if you'd prefer to experience it that way (and anything with Robert Carlyle in is worth watching). The followups, 'Tis, and Teacher Man, don't really capture the imagination the same way, though. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 19:38, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

A Fortunate Life was written by Bert Facey, someone nobody outside his family had ever heard of until then. He became an instant celebrity in 1981 at the age of 87, he died the following year, and his book has been considered a timeless classic since Day 1 of publication. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:52, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

In Christian Theology, why do we have hiccups?

It seems pretty obvious that the biological hiccup serves no useful purpose, but is just an inconvenience. It is a minor evolutionary hiccup, if you will. But that explanation certainly won't mesh with a Creator who designs everything. So, if Humans are designed, then what design requirement does the occasional hiccup serve? In other words: what is the theological significance of the hiccup? 84.153.230.45 (talk) 17:49, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

(In other words, when Christian philosophers have turned their attention to the hiccup, what have they concluded?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.153.230.45 (talk) 17:53, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

This isn't about Christian theology, it's about creationism. Christians are not required to be creationists, and creationists are not necessarily Christians. But note that if not being able to explain everything invalidated belief systems, humans wouldn't have any belief systems at all, because none of ours are complete in the logical sense (except for ones that are self-contradictory). Paul (Stansifer) 19:03, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

"Christians are not required to be creationists" - if only they reject the Creed (I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth ... ). It's a minority (Free Christians etc.). East of Borschov 20:24, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

First of all, not all Christians place such importance in the Nicene Creed. And you must surely recognize that the vagueness of the word "creator" permits considerable leeway. See theistic evolution. The vast majority of Catholics/Anglicans/mainline Protestants are not creationists in the strict, young-earth sense of the word, if only because the position has become tarnished by its association with crazy tambourine-shaking Evangelical types. Even in places like the United States, where Evangelicalism is epidemic, a slim majority of the total Christian population accept the fact of evolution, albeit without recognizing its full philosophical implications. As for places like Africa and the Caribbean, I couldn't say. The situation is probably worse there. LANTZY^TALK 21:30, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Christians are not required to be creationists in the sense of ignoring scientific explanations. For example, the Catholic Church says of reading the Bible:

110 In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76

For gory details, see here. Oh, and if you were interested in a pretty detailed exegesis of what the Vatican's official position is on the Nicene Creed, it's detailed in the Catechism. For example, here is the section in the word 'creator' in the line 'creator of heaven and earth'! So, there are certainly Christians who take the Nicene Creed seriously, and yet have no truck with Creationist 'science'. 86.164.26.153 (talk) 23:54, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

(EC)Paul wrote (2 Corinthians 12:7-10 KJV) about some unspecified weakness or affliction which acted as a "thorn in the flesh" to keep him humble. Hiccups, bad vision, deafness, or acne, like epilepsy, might be said by some religious philosopher to serve such a function. (added) Even Christians who are creationists might endorse this explanation.Edison (talk) 19:09, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Per Edison. These things are sent to try us. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:32, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

I did try to do some research, but I was not able to find any evidence that anyone writing in the field of intelligent design or creation science has addressed the question of the causes of hiccups. In response to the sub-question, many Christians believe that the two creation stories in the beginning of Genesis should be read as metaphoric or mythic truth, and not as a literally accurate version of the origin of life on earth. I could find a source for that if you like, but it really is common knowledge. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:40, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Given a reasonably elastic and paradoxical (ahem, I mean "mysterious") set of foundational beliefs, only a small investment of imagination is required to reconcile any given phenomenon with those beliefs. One strategy is to treat the universe like a Rube Goldberg machine, in which every localized evil is dismissed as part of a concatenation of events whose telos is good. If that's too much work, say "God works in mysterious ways", threaten the curious with hellfire, and call it a day. But religious people, like all humans, love to explain. From the perspective of religious authorities, the difficult part is not how to create just-so stories, but how to keep them from proliferating too quickly, and in undesirable directions. The power of theodicy is that it comes as naturally to a child as to a scholar, and is scalable from the most trivial to the most earth-shattering questions. Why do fireflies light up? So we can hunt them at night! Why did God cause the Holocaust? Because he loves the Jews! LANTZY^TALK 21:59, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Following the Original Sin man became imperfect, and genetic mutations began to occur. A hiccup is, like you say, an "inconvenience" with which we would surely not have to deal if Adam had not sinned. schyler (talk) 03:26, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

ok sorry, this might be a stupid question but, would we exist if Adam had not sinned ? 200.144.37.3 (talk) 10:19, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

According to some creationists, no. It was needed for him to take a fancy in the pleasures of the flesh with Eve. :-)

According to me, Adam never was of course. --Lgriot (talk) 11:45, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you would like to reexamine your thesis: "It seems pretty obvious that the biological hiccup serves no useful purpose". I, myself, suffer from a narrow esopahgus and find hiccups are useful in helping free stuck food. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 00:12, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Heresy trials in Scandinavia

The trial against Botulf Botulfsson seem to be the only heresy trial ending in an execution in Sweden, but what about the other Scandinavian countries? Does anyone know about any heresy trial in Denmark or Norway? Thanks--Aciram (talk) 19:00, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Our page on the Stockholm Bloodbath of 1520 details the trial (if such kangaroo court proceedings deserve the name) and execution of 82 people, ostensibly for heresy. Their real crime appears to have been opposition to Christian II of Denmark's invasion of Sweden. Antiquary (talk) 19:43, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I know about that occasion, but as you say; the real reason was not heresy, but politics. That's why the Botulf-case are pointed out as Sweden's only heresy trial, I believe. The trial against Eric Clauesson is also dubious. I feel secure in my knowledge about Sweden in particular, but I am not that informed about Denmark and Norway. What I search for are cases in Denmark and Norway. Where there any? --Aciram (talk) 20:07, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

All "heresy" is politics.--Wetman (talk) 17:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

November 22

European anti-hate laws

Are European anti-hate laws such that you can get in trouble if you say that fewer than 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust (for instance 5.4 million)? 71.203.138.231 (talk) 00:18, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no single European law on this: see here. The exact number of victims of the Holocaust will probably always be unknown, and it should be remembered that Jews were not the only victims. Most prosecutions for Holocaust denial have related to just that: denial that the events occurred at all, or at least an attempt to systematically minimise the number of victims. I doubt anyone would be prosecuted for an academic argument over numbers: it probably comes down to intent.

Incidentally, Wikipedia should not be used as a source for legal advice, though I'd assume that this wasn't the reason you asked the question! AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:23, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, just general interest, not legal advice. 71.203.138.231 (talk) 02:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

There are Nazi groups who like to lower the number though, to say "only" a few hundred thousand people were killed, as if that's somehow better. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:46, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

What? Obviously if only a tenth as many people had been killed it would have been "somehow better"! 84.153.242.138 (talk) 14:18, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

The real danger (in my opinion) is not from blatantly neo-Nazi groups, but from revisionist "historians" who write plausible sounding, semi-scholarly books on the subject. It's easy to dismiss a claim that the Nazis were handing out ponies and candy. It's not so easy to dismiss a claim that, maybe most deaths in concentration camps were due to tuberculosis, and that the Nazis, while disregarding the well being of detained undesirables, weren't actually trying to kill them. I mean, it was disease and malnutrition that did in a lot of the people at concentration camps, so such a claim is harder to refute. Or maybe you say that while there were certainly incidents of violence against Jews and other unwanted people, there was no centralized plan to exterminate them, that any violence was just due to overzealous guards rather than Nazi authorities. These type of guys can look a lot like legitimate academics, and indeed, sometimes the line is blurred. How do you classify someone like David Irving? Yes, he's obviously somewhat of a Nazi sympathizer, and has at times written things that are pretty blatantly holocaust denial. However, he's also written a lot of World War II books that are pretty well received, and does actually do research into the events he writes about. He was successfully prosecuted in Austria for holocaust denial. Buddy431 (talk) 05:39, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

From what I've seen, most prosecutions under such laws have been of people who went out of their way to attract the attention of the authorities, seeking 'martyrdom'. Perhaps the most appropriate punishment for their crimes might be to ignore them, rather than giving them an excuse to make themselves out as victims. Still, as I've noted, these are national laws, and have to be seen in their own particular contexts. I tend to think that neo-Nazis and the like present ample opportunities to be charged for their actions, so prosecuting them for their historical delusions is unnecessary. Typically, they have little ability to argue about history in a logical manner anyway. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:01, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd actually disagree with a lot of that. A number of the people charged under such laws that they had no intention of breaking, and in places that they had no intention of being. The most famous is probably Gerald Fredrick Töben, who was issued a German arrest warrant for a website that he ran, from Austria. He was arrested in the UK because of the arrest warrant, a nation with no such holocaust denial laws. That a man could be arrested in one country because he did something in his home country that's illegal in a third country is really pretty scary. He did nothing specific to attract the attention of the German authorities, and indeed, probably had no intention of breaking German law. The case really highlights the legal problems that the internet creates. If my website can be accessed in Country A that has less permissive freedom of speech laws than my home Country B, can a warrant for my arrest be issued in Country A? Evidentially yes. Can that arrest warrant be carried out in a third country that I've never been in before, Country C, whether or not what I did is illegal there? Apparently, at least in some cases. It's easy to blow off a case like this, given Toben's nutty views, but there are places in the world that go a lot further than outlawing holocaust denial, and it's really scary to think that I might have to worry about those countries laws even when I'm not in them. Buddy431 (talk) 05:08, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

As opposed to the situation where you can be imprisoned (or worse - much worse), by the police in country A because they have surrendered to country B who blames all its problems on people it insists are conspiring on behalf of imaginary country C? If you are that worried about being arrested for asserting your rights to 'freedom of speech' by talking crap, then don't do it. Bogus martyrdom doesn't justify stupidity. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:27, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I think you're trivializing a very serious issue. The point is not Töben. The point is laws that criminalize dissenting views. Such laws should never be permitted, as they represent an officialization of truth. One of truth's worst enemies, historically, has been its codification into official status. --Trovatore (talk) 07:08, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Being American, reading about these sorts of laws just makes me facepalm. What's the purpose of fighting for freedom if you turn around and make laws like that? I'm no Nazi sympathizer myself, but it does seem rather ironic that European countries would have such laws. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 08:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

In some cases German laws are ridiculous, someone with an anti-Nazi swastika with a strike-through was arrested. This was reversed on appeal but even so it shows that it is not only blatant extremists who are targeted. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:21, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

While some of the laws are problematic, we should still be careful about how we discuss them. In the case referenced, nobody was arrested. Someone was fined, and the fine was overturned on appeal. So the law is not to blame in this case - the court was. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:44, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

We do have an article, Laws against Holocaust denial, which also specifies which countries has these sort of laws. As can be seen not all European countries have them. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:40, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Time line of Robert Graves life

In my english class i have a report I am doing on the poet Robert Graves. For the report I am thinking about explaining and showing how different key events in his life reflect and show up in his poems but I need some help. I have found some very large things such as when he was in the wars but that is too vague. I was wondering if anyone knows of a website i could find more specific key events that altered his poems. Thank you verry much its greatly appretiated. --99.89.176.228 (talk) 04:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia. Entering 'Robert Graves' in the search facility might help. If that is too difficult, click on this: Robert Graves. Actually, I'd suggest that the way to understand Graves is to study his poetry, and the history of the time he lived in. If you can't see the connection then either he was a lousy poet, or (more likely) you need to study something else.

If you are really stuck, you might ask yourself how you'd expect a poet to react to being stuck in a trench, surrounded by the stench of cordite and decaying corpses. It isn't that difficult to see that this would affect him. Now read his poems, and figure out how.... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, that was rather grumpy. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:09, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I grump, therefore I am. Seriously, you can't do homework on a poet without actually reading poetry, and thinking about the poet. Most likely, our anonymous IP student has given up and found something on the web to plagiarise, but I had to at least make the point. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:25, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

True, but we were lazy students once too, weren't we? Well I was anyway. So here is a brief timeline of Graves' life, to help get started: http://www.humanitiesweb.org/human.php?s=t&p=l&ID=35. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:50, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I under stand what you are saying but I have done reserch (including wikipedias page) and have found some connections but i was hoping to find more specific events in his life for instance when he started dating a new person or a family member died or even when he was fired from a job. I want events besides the obvious events that he went to war, those are the easy ones because theyre so big. Thanks for the help.--69.58.36.2 (talk) 16:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)--69.58.36.2 (talk) 16:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

You've been given quite a difficult task. If you search on Google Books for "Robert Graves biography" you will find some books telling his life. They would be really helpful to you. But I think they will probably not be in your school or local library. Ask the librarians if it is possible to obtain such a book. For now you are left with the Internet. Our article on this poet is not brilliant, but it's probably still one of the best things you can find on the Web. Break down the information we do have into decades. 1920s for example. What was happening in his life, what books did he write? Itsmejudith (talk) 21:56, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Graves' autobiographical Good-bye to All That appeared in 1929; it's available in paperback. Why not relate passages in poems to that, rather than to some hint in a Wikipedia article?--Wetman (talk) 17:29, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Stronger economy = stronger army?

Does a stronger economy mean a given country will have a stronger army? Have there been studies that show the faster an economy grows the more of a threat its army becomes? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 05:25, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I was digging around for info and found this document. Hopefully it will hold some good info. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 05:28, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Economy of Japan, Constitution of Japan and Defense budget of Japan suggest that a strong military is not a necessary outcome of a strong economy. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:43, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

How would you define a strong economy? Which indicators would you look at? (Likewise for defining a "strong" army). Smallman12q (talk) 14:02, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Not always. See Vatican City. Lots of wealth (strong economy), minimal military (and they are all mercenaries). Googlemeister (talk) 15:36, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

The book you are looking for is "The economics of World War II: Six Great Powers in International Comparison"[14] by Werner Abelshauser et al. This is now a more widely accepted theory: that GDP directly influences military strength and success. I recall several articles that analyzed the collapse of the Soviet Union that followed these same theories. They most likely cite the authors of this book. NATO countries outpaced GDP growth during the Cold War. The criticism of this theory is the example of the war in Vietnam. There are several theories of why that one didn't succeed and those would have to be synthesized for a good paper on the topic. Gx872op (talk) 17:27, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't North Korea have the highest % of its state budget going to the military? --Soman (talk) 18:42, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the equation is correct. South Korea has a much stronger economy than North Korea, but North Korea probably has the stronger military. Britain's economy is not stronger than Germany's but Britain clearly has the stronger military. Maybe you could make a case that, given a similar political economic commitment to military might, the country with the stronger economy will have the stronger military. However, there is a point of diminishing returns. That is, when a country exceeds a given percentage of GDP in military spending, that military spending begins to erode economic strength. This happened in Britain in the early 20th century, in the Soviet Union by the 1970s, and arguably is happening in the United States today. Marco polo (talk) 20:38, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

However, North Korea has more military than it can really afford, as pointed out by Soman. If the Songun policy means that N.Korea is continually dependent on international food-aid handouts to keep its population above the starvation level, then that's a signal that it's devoting too many economic resources to the military, according to any rational criteria -- especially since the current size and strength of the military is only necessary for North Korea to pose a credible offensive aggressive threat (a much smaller military would be sufficient for purposes of self-defense only). AnonMoos (talk) 15:24, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

something humanity related

when i was at school i was looking at this girls ass then she saw me and smiled and give me a wink what does this mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.188.213.194 (talk) 06:05, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

She were fockin' with ye. LANTZY^TALK 06:57, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

It means that she is comfortable with her body image. HiLo48 (talk) 06:59, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

And it means you got extremely lucky; many girls I know wouldn't react so kindly, to put it mildly. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 08:01, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

The smile and wink probably means that you are good-looking. Most girls are flattered when hunks notice them, whereas they act offended when geeks or ugly guys leer at them.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:17, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Good gravy! No, that's the sort of victim-blaming stuff that contributes to rape culture: there is no reason to assume that girls who 'act offended' are not actually offended and deeply uncomfortable with people staring at their body parts when they're just living their lives. That other girls are comfortable and confident enough to react in a different way doesn't make the uncomfortable girls hypocritical or wrong. Girls might be flattered to receive interested looks from guys they are interested in, because people like flirting with people they want to flirt with, but then again they might not. For most women, this won't be a perfect correlation with some strange 'hunk' -> 'geek' continuum (does anyone view the world like that anymore?). 86.166.40.2 (talk) 11:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Rape is an an of violence that has nothing to do with a woman's attractiveness or whether or not she welcomes male appreciation of her body.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:36, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree. Did you follow the link? 212.183.128.70 (talk) 13:54, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes and it fails to mention that women historically have always been at physical risk from men whether it be rape, beatings or murder. Society and religion have usually turned a blind eye to it as did the law up until a couple of decades ago in some countries.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:18, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes? Rape culture isn't a new thing, but it's certainly depressing seeing it continue into the 21st century. And I cannot believe that Adam, below, goes straight into the slut shaming. Jesus Christ! Is life not hard enough? Is there a need to make things worse for teenage girls, force them into the slut/frigid pigeon holes? 86.164.164.239 (talk) 12:08, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Maybe she's a slut. Why are we answering this? Adam Bishop (talk) 14:19, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Maybe the OP it a troll. Ditto. 80.123.210.172 (talk) 15:33, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

We don't know, you'll have to ask the girl. I see no cause to speculate about the girl's moral character from the information given, Adam... WikiDao ☯ (talk) 15:42, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

We do have an article on the Wink, though, which covers some of its more common meanings (one of which is flirtation). WikiDao ☯ (talk) 16:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

It means she likes you. (It took a long time to get to that simple conclusion, which reinforces the stereotype of girlfriendless internet nerds.) 92.15.6.86 (talk) 12:40, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Most popular U.S. president worldwide

(Moved from the Language desk) -- the Great Gavini 08:03, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Who is the most popular president outside the United States? I mean of all time. My guess would be Lincoln, but what do I know? I suppose opinion would differ from one country to another. I suppose certain presidents would be particularly unpopular, for example I'd imagine that Nixon, Reagan, and Bush fils would be particularly unpopular in South America. Who is most popular there? Who is most popular in Europe? Who is most popular in Africa? Who is most popular in Japan? Etc. LANTZY^TALK 07:57, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Outside Serbia and Russia, Bill Clinton is highly regarded in Europe. The Russians would most likely consider Ronald Reagan to have been the USA's best president. I would say it definitely varies from country to country. I need to point out having lived in Europe for over half my life, that Nixon is not demonised in the Old Continent as he is/was by Americans. Jimmy Carter, I recall, was quite popular in the UK when he was incumbent.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Given the attitude towards the USA in many places, have you considered the alternative category of Least Unpopular President? HiLo48 (talk) 08:32, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

There could also be an alternative category of Most forgettable US Presidents.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:34, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Possibly JFK, he was certainly respected in the UK and continental Europe. -- Q Chris (talk) 08:35, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes and his assassination received worldwide coverage and an outpouring of international sympathy (with the glaring exception of China).--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:38, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

JFK is the only American to have a statue in Parliament Square. Alansplodge (talk) 11:21, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Your guess about Lincoln is not very good, I think. Here's the thing: the US only became seriously powerful and (most of all, important for your question) influential worldwide political and military actor after WWII, so most people outside the US don't care much about presidents before that. Of the preWWII presidents, the British may hold a grudge against the guys who turned the Colonies into the US (although I doubt it), but beyond that... So you really are looking at a very small number of potential candidates here IMO. JFK, Clinton, Obama (and possibly Carter) are the few that even come into question here, would be my guess. And this is because while they may have carried (carry) the same big stick as the rest of the US presidents, at least they spoke (speak) softly. TomorrowTime (talk) 09:31, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I only mentioned Lincoln because I recalled once reading that Lenin, in his boyhood, played a "cowboys-and-indians" game in which the protagonists were the Union and the Confederacy. I thought that perhaps Lincoln enjoyed some sort of mythical status around the world on account of the philosophical/moral/political significance which was imputed to him at home. LANTZY^TALK 09:36, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and as for early "anti-colonial" presidents, my intuitive impression is that most Britons were ambivalent or sympathetic. Consider the satirical words of Flanders and Swann: "The War of American Independence was enjoyable by and large / Watching England's free descendants busy defeating German George". Despite a few decades of political antipathy, I doubt if the peoples of the U.S. and the U.K. ever harbored heartfelt hatred for one another. Historians, am I wrong? LANTZY^TALK 09:40, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about wrong, but while burning down DC might win support from some of the more radical Americans today, it probably was not a popular move in 1814. Googlemeister (talk) 15:31, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

From my point of view, I'd say JFK, too. Clinton is not as popular as one might suspect - he gets plenty of sympathy points for having sex, but his main accomplishments were fixing the US economy, something that is visible in Europe only very indirectly. So while he is well-liked, he is not that well-known. Carter is well-regarded, too. From before WWI, at a guess I'd say most Europeans only know Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln. Of those, Jefferson is probably the most popular, for the Declaration of Independence. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:57, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

You say Carter is well-regarded? Would you say this good will is based on his presidency or his post-presidency? LANTZY^TALK 10:03, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Both, I'd say. As a president, he is popular for arms reduction talks, his opposition to the death penalty (which is widely regarded as barbaric in Europe), Camp David, and an unamerican degree of concern for the planet and the environment. He also had a very bad deal, through little fault of his own, with the Iranian embassy hostage crisis. His humanitarian work after the presidency has, of course, further strengthened this image. I think he is widely regarded as a very moral person who did the best he could in fairly bad situations. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:25, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

That makes sense. In other words, he is admired in Europe for the very reasons he is disdained in the United States! LANTZY^TALK 10:30, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

A non-American vote for Kennedy here. Tho other nominees would have been Clinton, Carter and Obama. The latter still has time on his side. Sad about the Republicans. HiLo48 (talk) 11:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

And a vote for FDR who saved (at least some of) Britain's bacon from 1940 onwards with the Destroyers for Bases Agreement and Lend Lease. His horse-trading at the Yalta Conference with Stalin at our expense took some of the shine off, but he was a dying man then. Alansplodge (talk) 11:29, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Lantzy, what exactly do you mean by "popular"? Well liked (and if so, is it his achievements or him personally that's the focus)? Well respected? Well known? Much talked about? Much admired? These are definitely not the same things. The popularity of a president cannot be measured in the same way as the popularity of a singer, e.g. in terms of records sold. And even that can be misleading; according to sales figures, Celine Dion must be one of the most popular singers in the world, yet she seems to be almost universally reviled and despised. Nobody's ever explained why, to my satisfaction, but I get that there's a gravy train effect happening, whereby it's fashionable to say you hate her even if you actually love her. Mathematically, there has to be a large number of people who buy her records and enjoy them in private but are in the closet about it publicly. So, is she popular or not? I have no idea how to interpret these conflicting pieces of evidence. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:44, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps a lot of people like her, and a lot of people dislike her, with relatively few in the middle - she polarises opinion. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

In China, I would say the most "popular" ones might be Washington (a revolutionary leader, and with surrounding mythology that has been transmitted in China for generations), Lincoln (a leader in a war against secession, something that traditional nationalistic values identify strongly with, plus freeing slaves squares with socialist / Communist values), and more recently, Roosevelt (for defeating Japan in World War II) and Nixon (for switching recognition to China from Taiwan). Amongst the most recent presidents, the younger Bush is almost universally reviled. Clinton is generally held in fairly high regard but the bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade (1999) is a national humiliation that is still fairly fresh in memory. Obama was wildly popular early on but becoming less so with US policies increasingly setting up China as its notional enemy. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I notice I am the only one who brought up Reagan and it was his collaboration with Gorbachev that brought about the collapse of the Berlin Wall, surely a remarkable achievement which benefitted Germany, Europe and ultimately the rest of the world!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:34, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

That's because most of the world doesn't buy into the "Reagan singlehandedly defeated Communism" propaganda. TomorrowTime (talk) 14:10, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I never said he singlehandedly deafeated Communism. I said he collaborated with Gorbachev, who is generally credited with ending Communism in the Soviet Union and its Warsaw Pact satellites.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

It was Gorbachev who had the common sense and guts to facilitate a reasonably painless dissolution of the ailing and failing Soviet empire. Reagan just hitched a ride with him and stole some of his thunder five minutes before midnight. Reagan saying "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall!" no more made Reagan instrumental in the fall of the wall than Kennedy's "Ich bin ein Berliner" magically got Kennedy an apartment, permanent address in Berlin and a German citizenship. TomorrowTime (talk) 15:03, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Reagan didn't collaborate very efficiently and he was always back-and-forth over it. There were a few nice photo ops, but Reagan would immediately go home and claim how tough he is on Communism and how it was still an Evil Empire and all of that jazz. He was totally distrustful of Gorbachev until Thatcher convinced him that Gorby was actually not the same as Brezhnev. Reagan's stubborn interest in his Star Wars plan allowed him to miss multiple opportunities for gigantic, if not complete, reductions in nuclear arms. It's a very mixed legacy if you actually look at the history of it. Saying Reagan collaborated with Gorbachev is in my opinion significant revisionism. Reagan's diary reveals a guy who never really thought Gorbachev would amount to anything. Recommended reading on this is Hoffman's The Dead Hand. In my view, Gorbachev would have done what Gorbachev did whether Reagan had been there or not. It might have even been easier for Gorbachev if there had been someone less outwardly hawkish in the White House, constantly looking to score domestic political points by being tough on the USSR and not working with them. It's easy to imagine an end of the Cold War without Reagan; it's hard to imagine it without Gorbachev. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:06, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

JFK may be popular in some areas but in others he's sometimes seen as the guy who nearly caused a nuclear war. Nil Einne (talk) 14:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Compared to what Mao, Castro, Herman Kahn, and certain U.S. generals were advocating in 1962, Kennedy was a model of nuclear restraint... AnonMoos (talk) 14:21, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I saw a documentary on TV here in Italy which praised Kennedy's diplomacy during the crisis and opined that Nixon would not have been able to prevent a catastrophe had he been in the driver's seat back in '62.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:27, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

We have an article on various Historical rankings of United States Presidents.
Abe Lincoln seems to consistently get the popular vote for "Greatest US President". WikiDao ☯ (talk) 15:26, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, but those are US rankings, the OP was asking about rankings outside of the US. TomorrowTime (talk) 15:29, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Not all of the polls were restricted to American respondents. The Rasmussen poll seems just to have used "random" internet users. The Scholar survey results section would seem to include non-American views, too. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 15:48, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Here in Italy, the most popular Presidents are the ones with flair, charisma, and drama. JFK, Reagan, and Clinton usually receive positive press; while George Bush and George W. Bush are openly disliked and criticised. Nixon is middle-of-the-road, whereas Eisenhower, Johnson, Ford, and Carter never existed as far as the Italian media is concerned. Obama is still popular although less so than his first year in office.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:18, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

In Manchester, UK, there's a Lincoln Square with a statue of the man put up by his admirers among the city's mill workers - despite the fact that they suffered very badly from the blockade on Southern cotton. Admittedly it's not a very big square, but it's the thought that counts. I think in the UK we think quite well of Lincoln, FDR, JFK, Carter, Clinton and Obama, while people of a certain age recall Eisenhower in his military role, and we're not dead set against Nixon who, after all, did manage to open up China (OK, he was a crook, but he wasn't all bad!). In the former Czechoslovakia they're quite keen on Wilson, for obvious reasons - the main railway station in Prague was "Wilson station" throughout the First Republic, and again from 1945 until some years after the Communists took over. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 18:20, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

It might also be worth mentioning Monrovia, the only non-American capital city named after a U.S. President. One who is now quite obscure, actually. Not sure what the average Liberian thinks of him now though. Qrsdogg (talk) 23:03, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

The Monroe doctine is still well-remembered. As for European places named after U.S. presidents, there's Franklin D. Roosevelt (Paris Métro)... AnonMoos (talk) 00:00, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

There are streets in Prague named after Washington and Wilson. The train station used to be named after Wilson, too. There's a Lincoln Street in Tel-Aviv. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

My guesses would be FDR and Obama. FDR, of course, was president during World War II, and most of the world was either part of the Allies, occupied by the Axis or part of an Axis country hoping to lose to the Americans and not the Russian. Obama is tremendously popular outside of the U.S. one, because people love the story of an African-American president and two, because Europeans and Canadians think every Democratic presidential candidate is going to win over the big meanies in American and turn the U.S. into a pacifist nation on the forefront of efforts against climate change. In June, a poll found 87% of French respondents and 84% of Brits though Obama "will do the right thing in foreign affairs," compared to 65% of Americans. A third-place candidate might be Woodrow Wilson, whose idealism made him very popular in Europe outside of the WWI losing countries. Even the Armenians hoped Wilson would rescue them from the Turks. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:50, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Since he didn't is Wilson highly unpopular in Armenia? Googlemeister (talk) 16:39, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

In Sweden I think the ranking is probably JFK, Obama, FDR, Clinton. While Nixon and Bush Jr. are the most disliked. Reagan probably places somewhere in the middle, popular among some liberal, but disliked by the socialists. P. S. Burton (talk) 00:21, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

"Liberal" in the above comment meaning the opposite of what it means in the U.S. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:57, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes: Liberalism in the United States and Liberalism worldwide. P. S. Burton (talk) 14:23, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Measures in lieu of criminal prosecutions

I have learnt that certain countries have "measures in lieu of criminal prosecutions" (I don't know what they are exactly called) by which the offenders would not be prosecuted if the public prosecutors find that they have committed the offences by negligence or committed the petty offences and the injured parties can be compensated or the agreements of compromise can be adopted, etc.

So, is there any Wikipedia article in connection with the said concept? And would you please recommending the laws (Acts, etc) of any country (because "I don't know what they are exactly called")?

Thank you so much, :)

182.52.99.142 (talk) 09:06, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I think this sort of thing goes on frequently. In the UK filing a false tax return is an offence, but if done through negligence then the tax office will frequently accept payment of tax owing plus interest. Is this the sort of thing you mean? -- Q Chris (talk) 09:14, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Also in the UK England and Wales, police (rather than the public prosecutor) can give a "caution" instead of prosecution[15].

"A 'simple caution' is used to deal quickly and simply with those who commit less serious crimes. It aims to divert offenders away from court, and to reduce the likelihood that they will offend again. If you are given a simple caution you will be officially warned about the unacceptability of your behaviour, and the likely consequences of committing further crimes will be explained to you." Alansplodge (talk) 09:28, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

There's also Restorative justice although it's not really in lieu of criminal prosecutions and doesn't require the offences be by negligence (but they do have to take responsility). It's used in NZ, particularly with youth offenders although this isn't explained very well in our article. But see [16] [17] Nil Einne (talk) 14:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh and I just remembered of course there's also Diversion program which more fits what the OP is describing since you usually avoid a criminal conviction as the police withdraw the charge if you successfuly undergo one although again negligence is not required (the offence has to be minor though). [18] [19] This old [20] discussion may also be of interest. Note that even if it comes to court and you please guilty, you can sometimes be discharged without conviction [21] [22] [23] Nil Einne (talk) 15:22, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Travelling from France to England in 14th century

If someone were to have embarked on a journey from Picardy, France to the English court in April/May 1366 roughly how many weeks would it have normally taken? Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:27, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Do you know which bit of Picardy? I wouldn't say many weeks, just a few days. The traveller would have come up through Picardy to a port such as Boulogne or Calais, then crossed the Channel, either sailing into London, or disembarking at Dover and coming up on horseback or by carriage. Assuming that the English court was sitting at Westminster. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:30, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

The castle of Coucy. OK, now I'm going to be difficult. Is it likely a mother having recently given birth would have undertaken the journey? The reason I ask is that while going through Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror it mentioned the date of Isabella de Coucy's marriage as ahving occurred on 27 July 1365. Their firstborn child was born the following April. Well, it then has the couple and their baby at a ceremony at Windsor Castle on 11 May 1366. I am trying to figure out whether Isabella might have been pregnant when she married Enguerrand VII, Lord of Coucy, seeing as she had pressured her father, Edward III to let them marry. I don't believe carriages were in use then, women often travelled by wagon, litter or on horseback (the side-saddle had not yet been introduced to England).--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I always feel obliged to mention that Tuchman is not an historian and sometimes has a very active imagination. *grumble grumble* Adam Bishop (talk) 14:17, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Her book was based on primary sources which all give the exact dates I have mentioned. Besides, Tuchman never once suggested that Isabella had a shotgun wedding, I am the person intimating that, having had four children myself and annot see how a medieval woman could have braved a Channel crossing and journeys over muddy, rutted roads two weeks after childbirth.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:20, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, she may have used primary sources but it is normally very difficult to figure that out. I don't see any notes for Isabella's birth or marriage, or any notes at all for dozens of pages before or after. How do you know where she got that info? Adam Bishop (talk) 14:36, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, blargh, it's all in the "endnotes", with no notes actually pointing to them. So in this case, everything Tuchman knows about Isabella comes from Mary Anne Everett Green, "Lives of the Princesses of England", and B.C. Hardy, "Philippa of Hainault and her Times" (1910). I don't know those books, but those are the ones based on primary sources, not Tuchman (and certainly there must be better and more recent secondary sources than 1851 and 1910). Adam Bishop (talk) 14:42, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know anything about it, but our article currently says, "Tuchman relies much on Froissart's Chronicles." WikiDao ☯ (talk) 15:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec)Yeah, sorry, I wasn't paying attention to the difference between carriage and wagon. To get to Windsor it would have been more convenient to come up the river, transferring from ship to barge probably at Gravesend. She could have travelled part of the route by river on the French side too. Getting to the Somme at St Quentin looks the most likely. As for how soon after a birth a woman would travel, a pure guess, but wouldn't a noblewoman have been "confined" for about four weeks, between the birth and her churching? It would be worth confirming both dates with other sources. You do find serious mistakes made in dates for that period because Victorian historians sometimes tried to correct for the Gregorian calendar. The year started not on 1st Jan but on Lady Day, as you probably know, and that gives rise to mistakes too. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:37, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I have seen the April 1366 DOB for Isabella's daughter and the 27 July 1365 marriage date for Isabella and Enguerrand in every book on English royals and peerages I have ever come across; and we are talking about well nigh 40 years as I have been a history fanatic since grammar school! Therefore seeing as she would have been confined since April sometime and then churched before stepping aboard the caravel that took her home to England to be on time for the ceremony at Windsor on 11 May 1366 (which made her husband Earl of Bedford), I feel that it's likely she and Enguerrand anticipated their bedding ceremony by about a month or so. This would place their child's birth at the very beginning of April. I do realise that none of this can go into Isabella's article, however, it is interesting. She was 33 when she married, so I guess she needed a wee bit of a push to get him to the altar. Whew! Sorry I have been so verbose.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:40, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Even if it is reported everywhere, Froissart could well be the sole source for the dates, and also for where people were at particular times. And a baby could be born prematurely - 1st April is 35 weeks by my calculation, so not all that premature. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:54, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, a noblewoman with a baby would absolutely have traveled mainly by water, and otherwise probably mainly by litter, though it's possible that for the land portions of the journey, the noblewoman would have traveled on horseback while handmaidens on foot carried the baby. I think that it probably would have taken two days by litter (or on a horse moving at a walk) from Coucy to St. Quentin on the Somme, then something like 4 days by riverboat from St. Quentin to Port-le-Grand, the medieval port at the mouth of the Somme. There would likely have been a wait of a couple of days at the port (or just upstream at Abbeville, while agents rode back and forth to the port) for favorable winds and tide (and to make arrangements for the passage), then the passage across the Channel. With favorable winds, it would have been possible to make Dover in one day, but probably not all the way around Kent and up the Thames to a transfer point. In fact, given the prevailing westerly winds, it could well have taken another two days (three days total) to reach Gravesend. From Gravesend, it would have been about three days' travel up the Thames by riverboat to Windsor. So, I think that this would amount to close to a two-week journey. The journey could have been made much faster by horseback with a change of mounts every 10 miles or so (which a king or powerful noble could arrange), but that mode of travel would have been much too strenuous for a woman with an infant. Marco polo (talk) 16:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your answers. Isabella was already pregnant by November as extant letters from King Edward to Isabella confirm this. Two weeks for the journey sounds right. The baby was likely born well before 27 April! Isabella was Edward's favourite child and de Coucy was a good match for her. I think it can be safely assumed (for my own personal interest not Wikipedia's) that the couple did have sex prior to their wedding. What had they to lose? De Coucy was Edward's honoured prisoner of war, Isabella well past 30. It wouldn't be the only time in English history a pregnant woman approached the altar expecting a child-look at Anne Boleyn!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:58, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I know it sounds counterintuitive and incongruous, but a child is only illegitimate if they are born out of wedlock, not if they are conceived out of wedlock. Even if the marriage is only a few weeks before the birth, the child would still be considered legitimate issue. --Jayron32 07:48, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I never implied that Isabella's child had been illegitimate (just as Anne Boleyn's daughter wasn't either). If there had been any hint of illegitimacy in regards to the elder daughter, the vast Coucy estates would have passed to the second daughter, wife of the Earl of Oxford, Richard II's favourite. Winston Churchill was actually born 7 months after his parents' marriage!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about modern times, but in the Middle Ages it was fairly simple to legitimize illegitimate children, especially noble children, even if they were born long before the marriage. Unless the religious authorities didn't like you; then it would be very difficult. It's all politics. Adam Bishop (talk) 17:03, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Helping yourself

I'd read that the phrase "God helps those who help themselves", typically spouted as gospel by those looking for justifications for not helping the disadvantaged, isn't actually scripture. What's its actual origin? GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 19:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Its origin is probably lost in the mists of history, but according to our article on Erasmus's Adagia, Mr. E recorded the proverb in that work in the sixteenth century. Deor (talk) 19:34, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

There's also something very like it in Aeschylus Fragments 395, "God likes to assist the man who toils", but it turns up in so many languages that I wouldn't despair of finding it in a Sumerian cuneiform tablet. Lost, as you say, in the mists of history. Antiquary (talk) 19:40, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I've never thought of this saying as an excuse not to help others but rather as a word of advice for people to take command of their lives and have a good work ethic. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:35, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. I've often seen it cited to Poor Richard's Almanack by Benjamin Franklin, but Deor's link predates that. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

That quote and a few earlier variants are listed at wikiquote:Algernon Sydney. The earliest listed there is "Heaven ne’er helps the men who will not act" from Sophocles. Staecker (talk) 13:39, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

What is the point of huge discounts on big-ticket items?

Today I see two deals on TVs: a 26-inch for $198, shipping included, and a 32-inch for $250. What is the point of such promotions besides raising brand awareness? People won't tend to buy more than one and not again for many years. Imagine Reason (talk) 20:09, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

See bait and switch. Especially in the U.S. on Black Friday, stores will advertise DEEP discounts on a tiny number of items. So, they'll sell you a TV for like 90% off, but the store has like 5 of these in stock, and the sale is only good on stock in store, no rainchecks or anything. So the first 5 people get a TV super cheap, and the next 1000 people who show up expecting to get the TV end up buying something much more expensive cuz, well, they fought traffic and they might as well get something if they went through all the trouble to get to the store, etc. etc. This happens ALL the time --Jayron32 21:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Over here, stores have to have a "reasonable" amount of merchandise they advertise on stock. I don't know the exact definition of "reasonable", but I have seen stores who ran out handing out rebate notes for a later time. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:33, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Also, Black Friday items often aren't as good a deal as you might think. I once was the lucky "winner" of a laptop from one of these deals with 63 megs of memory. No, no, that's NOT a typo, *63* megs of memory. Usable for most (but not all) things you can do with 32 megs. The stuff may be cheap, but you're getting rejects and returns, things that didn't make the grade for the other 364.25 days of the year. Wnt (talk) 00:15, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

The deals I'm seeing are online ones, available today, and won't end for a couple of days at least. Imagine Reason (talk) 05:00, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Atheist rules

What rules do atheists have to protect one's soul from danger and destruction? 96.252.208.240 (talk) 22:06, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Do many atheists believe they have a soul? Itsmejudith (talk) 22:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

What do you believe to be a "soul" and what danger and destruction do you believe it needs protection from? If it is in some way connected to the notion of a personal God, it is likely that what you mean by "soul" is not something that atheists believe they have. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 22:41, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Atheists follow actual real principles of ethics, as opposed to what we see as imaginary and delusional metaphysical speculation. Many, if not most atheists are humanists, which is to say that we place our faith in humanity to do the right thing without any need for what theists call "God's plan." Humans are perfectly capable to figure out right and wrong without a hierarchical organization telling us what to do. Whether or not atheists believe in a "soul" is not universally agreed upon, however the vast majority reject any dualism of mind and body in favor of a monist materialism (also called physicalism or scientific materialism. No dualism means no soul, no spirits, demons etcetera. Another consequence of all this is that there is nothing from which to be saved, therefore no need for salvation. There is no hell, devil, or afterlife; much less any eternal punishment. Many, if not most atheists find the idea of hell to be quite an immature reason to behave ethically. Atheists do the right thing, not because they will be punished like children if they do not. We do the right thing for its own sake, because it is right in principle. This is a more intellectual ethical system.Greg Bard (talk) 00:51, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

So then do atheists view laws and prisons as immature? They serve much the same purpose. Googlemeister (talk) 16:34, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

A well-stated summary of the position. :) WikiDao ☯ (talk) 01:44, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Or at the very least one does the "right thing" because there are, say, laws and other very non-soulful consequences to doing the "wrong thing." You'll note that absolutely zero human societies, even those which are known for high levels of religiosity and piousness, leave all of their desires for social order up to the demands of scripture or the idea that people will in a self-interested way always care about their eternal soul. Every society that I know of has laws that are enforced by a secular (e.g. non-supernatural, even if they claim religion as their justification) order. When we all agree something is the "wrong thing" (e.g. murder, stealing), we make a law that prohibits it (and back up the prohibition with force). Why people think that the fear of sin alone would have any powerful social effect is kind of mysterious to me — it's pretty clear that "your eternal soul will burn in hell" is not a deterrent against people committing crimes, as everybody finds a way to justify what they are doing morally or believes that their religion has a "loophole" that gets them out of the bind. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:17, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Any atheist can answer this question easily : None at all. There's no such thing as a soul. APL (talk) 03:58, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

You don't have to be a theist to believe in souls. You might for example take the existence of qualia — the hard problem of consciousness which has no materialist solution that satisfies everyone — to be evidence of souls. That would not necessarily imply that you believe in God. --Trovatore (talk) 04:20, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Notably Jainism has a concept of a soul but God in Jainism says it's "Thus, Jainism is polytheist, monotheist, nontheist and atheist all at the same time". Similarly some those following Buddhism may sometimes considered be atheist (see God in Buddhism) but also have a concept that may or may not be considered a soul depending on how you understand the concept (see Soul#Buddhism). Nil Einne (talk) 11:40, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Fully agree with T's point about consciousness. And if I squint my eyes and turn my head just right, I can even see something like Spirit (capital S) "moving through" evolution, history, what-have-you (without necessarily the need to ascribe anything like "personality" to it;)). There are many Conceptions of God, some of which (including those mentioned by Nil) tend to be undreamt of by the "hyper-religious" adherents of any religion. The notion of the Absolute, as another example, is worth considering (depending on one's interests and time...). WikiDao ☯ (talk) 14:07, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Atheist rules - followup

What rules do atheists have to protect themselves from evil? 96.252.208.240 (talk) 05:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

First, 96, all your posts so far have been questions about what atheists do about this or that. Starting a new thread isn't helpful. You'd be better off, if you're looking for information rather than trolling, reading the many articles we have concerning atheism, or Googling around for other information.

Second, you seem to be assuming unanimity among atheists about many matters. Atheists are less organized than, for example, the Roman Catholic Church. Ask two atheists any philosophical question, and you'll probably get three different answers. PhGustaf (talk) 05:49, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

When I visit the library reference desk I would normally include the preface, "Where can I find an answer to the following question..." and the reference librarian would normally lead me to the section where I might find the answer. If she is knowledgeable of the topic, she might ask me specifics or to explain exactly what I want to know. Here if I use the word atheist that is all that is heard and even though I have read the article and many of the articles it links too instead of suggesting additional references which will answer my question I get personal opinions instead of references to the location of specific information. Consequently I always get the impression that the reference desk is not manned by any reference librarian but by work study students who could care less except for finding the opportunity to be snerd. You fit this image perfectly so I will in fact withhold my financial donation and look somewhere else for the information I am seeking which is unavailable here. My regrets to Jimmy Wales. 96.252.208.240 (talk) 06:34, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

What is evil, and what rules do non-atheists have to protect themselves from evil? HiLo48 (talk) 05:41, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

OK 92.... Take your bat and ball and steam off in a huff. But really, what do you expect? Your question only makes sense inside the context of your obvious narrow Christian discussion cohort. You probably would be best off and more comfortable discussing those nasty atheists there. Evil is a pretty meaningless word outside your narrow world. It gets flung around by politicians hoping to impress folks like you. But it has no concrete meaning to someone who has no belief in your God and/or some metaphysical opponent like the devil. An atheist doesn't believe in such things so there is NO ANSWER. The ignorance and tunnel vision you show in even asking the question is what leads to the snerdness that concerns you. (BTW, thanks for that new word. I'll use it often.) HiLo48 (talk) 06:50, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure it is necessarily fair to berate the OP. One just needs to explain, calmly and succinctly that athiets do not necessarily believe in concepts such as souls or evil (some athiests might, but many do not). Athiests can still obey a moral code, but they do not necessarily derive that code from the influence of a supernatural being; there are lots of sources of morality, one common source cited by some athiests is natural law. Athiests can still recognize that certain actions, like murder and theft and adultery are ultimately harmful to society and to humanity, and thus formulate a moral code based on not killing, stealing, or cheating on your spouse, without necessarily refering to any God, nor the concept of evil, nor to a spirit or a soul. --Jayron32 07:34, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

That's all fair and right, Jay, but if you read the discussion so far you'll see that that's exactly what's been done, more than once. 92 didn't come here so much to ask questions as to hear answers that will confirm what he already believes, and is now irritable because that's not what he got. Incidentally, the "I have no intention of reading the atheism article" and "I'll take my donation money elsewhere" statements have a strong stench of trolling to me. TomorrowTime (talk) 08:43, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I know it's possible that 92 was a totally naive and innocent, brainwashed Christian from a very narrow sect of that faith, but to be a Wikipedia user and not have a broader outlook than that shown here today is hard to accept. I'll back trolling. HiLo48 (talk) 09:51, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

We're discussing 96, who moans about atheists. 92 is the one who moans about more Daily Mail issues. 86.164.164.239 (talk) 12:19, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Great word ("snerd"), 96, thanks! :) WikiDao ☯ (talk) 15:09, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, ethics and morality basically. Not to mention the rule of law. There is a fiction among Christians that ethics and morality must be derived from scripture. That's simply not true. They can be worked out pragmatically, and passed down from generation to generation with no problem.

Your mother doesn't have to believe in God to tell you not to steal, and you don't have to believe in God to take her advice to heart.

On top of all that, like most social animals human beings have an instinctive sense of empathy, which helps us understand right and wrong.

Good reading here is Secular ethics and Morality without religion. APL (talk) 15:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the question can be answered. Soul translates into terms that are applicable to the atheist. Just because someone is an atheist doesn't imply that they have no compunction about committing murder for instance. So the answer to the question would involve those "rules" that atheists use to prevent themselves from (to use my example) committing murder. They would use anger management techniques. They would get adequate rest. They would cultivate good relationships. They would pursue meaningful interests. Those would be the "rules" atheists use to "protect themselves from evil". Bus stop (talk) 16:45, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps of interest to some is that there is, in fact, even from a Christian perspective, scriptural support for what APL is saying above. In Hebrews 10:15-17, Paul (citing Jeremiah 31:33) writes:

¹⁰ This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord:

"I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts.

"I will be their God, and they will be my people.

¹¹ "No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’

because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

¹² "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

¹³ By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

God is, in other words, giving his people a measure of autonomy and freedom – much as parents will let their children live their own lives and make up their own minds once they have grown up and become adults themselves. Perhaps some, like the OP, still need some degree of "divine guidance" (or believe they do), but there is no need (says the Lord) for them to "teach their neighbor" about what they believe that guidance to be, or to insist that "atheists" need such guidance when in fact they do not. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 19:17, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

facebook

Hi I feel this question is realevent and effects everyone...

• • does faceboook employees know all there friends pesonally or do there rules only apply to members as I am currently banned from certain features and think it say's a lot about the true nature and intentions of faceboook its purpose and of course implys much more but will leave that to other people to use there own minds and thoughts on that one. This question descibe's many realevant to the cause and effect off today superseeding universal topics thatI believe should be addressed**

           0101010001000100             End Transmission    0000010010101010

The_₦ΛֻఋḒ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.213.149.210 (talk) 23:01, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you are looking for a blog or an Internet forum rather than a reference desk? Dbfirs 08:45, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Is there an optimum theoretical level of income inequality?

Class warfare has led to a polarization between communists and capitalists, between complete sharing of wealth and complete concentration of wealth. But if all assets in society are held by one corporation, it is no different than if all assets are held by one central government. One would suppose that to provide incentive for people to work harder or take risks, that some pattern of limited economic inequality would be optimal, providing people enough resources to be capable and to try and to risk failure, but not eliminating the reward. But other factors also enter in - most notably, the cold-blooded immorality of establishing starvation or other inhumane penalties for failing to play the economic game correctly.

Question: has anyone tried to work out such factors and establish an optimal curve of income distribution, and presumably redistribution (whether by taxes, royalties, inalienable rights or any other means), to which current social inequalities could be compared quantitatively?

I'm looking for an answer based on a single philosophy, rather than a purely parliamentary compromise between two different belief systems. Wnt (talk) 23:57, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

See Kaldor–Hicks efficiency and Pareto efficiency. 68.198.183.69 (talk) 02:20, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

This is going to depend largely on your philosophical and political beliefs. Most economic theory is really dependent on a lot of political assumptions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.120.81.183 (talk) 02:32, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

If your goal is to maximize per-capita GDP, then the optimal income inequality seems to be around a Gini-coefficient of 30 (you can see this by graphing gini against per-capita GDP for a cross-section of countries). It makes sense that the optimal would be neither perfect equality (there is no disincentive to laziness) nor perfect inequality (there is no incentive to work). Wikiant (talk) 02:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

There are so many implicit assumptions in this question that it is unanswerable. You will note for a start that it assumes that people only 'work' for 'income', which is demonstrably false - you are looking at a counterexample right now. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:06, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

"you can see this by graphing gini against per-capita GDP for a cross-section of countries" woah there cowboy! Correlation is not causation! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.120.81.183 (talk) 03:19, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I think there's a distinction between the idea that people only work for income, and the idea that people expect income when they work. For example, from the Soviet Union, a person expects that when he plants a tomato in his garden, he'll be the one to eat it. There's an aspect of civil liberties to it. In this regard Wikipedia work isn't really given for free; actually, by editing an article or a Reference Desk question, people expect to get back their own research as a permanent reference work, hopefully with interest. It's hard to measure intangible profit from intangible work, but the sense of it can be gotten when deletionists crash the party and start destroying what you've built up; it tends to make a person furious. But it's easier and of more immediate practical importance to measure the distribution of payments that come in dollars and cents.

The graph of the Gini coefficient (x100) in the article is interesting, but unfortunately it's over 10 years out of date... Wnt (talk) 10:13, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Intrinsic motivation is vulnerable to the overjustification effect. Money isn't everything, despite what those with huge bonuses say. 86.164.164.239 (talk) 13:00, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

November 23

Quotation question

The quote goes something like this "a short answer is likely to be wrong, but a long enough answer will lose the attention of the audience" I can't remember the exact quote, or where I heard it or who said it, but I have a sense that it might have been about some aspect of the Roman Empire in Britain. I would love the full, accurate and attributed quote.... Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.120.81.183 (talk) 02:30, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Saki once wrote: A little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of explanation. But I'll bet others before him expressed similar views in different words. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 09:26, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - that isn't it though - it definitely had something to do with losing the attention of your audience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.105.163.82 (talk) 17:29, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Extreme penalty for collaboration?

Could somebody tell me why Ragnar Skancke was executed after the end of World War II? His article doesn't describe any acts that would seem to justify such a sentence. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:36, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

His high position and general support of the Quisling government was likely justification enough. See Legal purge in Norway after World War II for a rather too-brief article. The lead to that article states "The scope, legal basis, and fairness of these trials has since been a matter of some debate.", in other words that, in the opinion of som, and in some cases, the retribution against some of those who collaborated with the Nazis may have been excessive. That does not mean that everyone feels this way, or that everyone who was executed was innocent, just that it is a source of contention. --Jayron32 07:42, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Back around early 2002, a lot of people were wondering why Nazi nurse Hanna Kvanmo was ever appointed to the Nobel peace prize committee in the first place, and what possible moral right she had to launch into vitriolic ranting tirades condemning other people's putative sins. It seems that the purge wasn't strict enough in her case... AnonMoos (talk) 15:17, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Hanna Kvanmo's remarks about Peres figured prominently in her obituaries, but are absent from Wikipedia's article on her. So I suppose our readers will be left wondering why a lot of people were wondering. The omission is "grotesque and unbelievable". :) - Nunh-huh 19:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

do Filipinos worship chicken bones?

Well, do they?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 12:48, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know. Do Roman Catholics worship statues? Do Protestants worship dog-eared Bibles? I'm sure their is a reference to religion in the Philippines somewhere in Wikipedia, and I'm sure you are capable of finding it. As for what constitutes 'worship', and whether people anywhere apply this specifically to the skeletal remains of domesticated fowl, I'm not sure there is likely to be a definitive answer. Why do you ask?

Before trying the Reference Desk, I read the Religion in the Philippines article, and it didn't say anything about chicken bones, so perhaps I was simply misinformed, or the article needs to be updated.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:40, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

If you could give an indication of where this (mis)information came from, perhaps we might be able to throw some light on the matter. The article says that more than 90% of Filipinos are Christian, and between 5 and 10% are Moslem, and as far as I'm aware, chicken bones don't feature notably in either faith. The article also mentions "Animism, folk religion, and shamanism", where chicken bones might conceivably be involved somehow, but without further data, any suggestion that "the article needs to be updated" seems a little premature. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:04, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

this and this say something about it, albeit sarcastically. LiteralKa (talk) 17:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

So the 'source' for this is a rant from an ignorant comedian? And on this basis, a regular 'contributor' to Wikipedia thinks we should edit an article? Jeeez... AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

What do you call this life stance?

Life is like a movie. The screenplay is written (depending on your religious stance) by God or collectively by the characters. The story is logical and everything happens for a reason; even disasters that come out of nowhere serve to make the characters better characters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.189.219.60 (talk) 12:50, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Predeterminism? TomorrowTime (talk) 13:33, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Fatalism, pre-destination. 92.15.6.86 (talk) 13:35, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the movie could be shown in Plato's cave. Matt Deres (talk) 14:51, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Panglossianism. -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:10, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

When you say the story is "written", do you mean in advance? Before the universe started? Or now, as we go along? APL (talk) 15:38, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

"We will wear Bally's"

I was looking at a slide-show of pictures about the English Defence League, and in one of the pictures, there was an EDL sign that read "If they wear burkhas, then we will wear Bally's". (It's picture number 6 at http://english.aljazeera.net/photo_galleries/europe/2010112275625847519.html.) As an American, the only Bally's I'm familiar with off-hand is the gym chain -- I assume the sign isn't about the threat of well-defined abs, but a couple of google searches turned up nothing relevant except companies that made belts or shoes, and I can't see how that would relate to burkhas. Anyone able to shed light on this? 96.246.58.133 (talk) 15:53, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Despite being from the UK, I've never heard it as a term before. Looking at the image, however, it appears (in a misspelt way) to refer to balaclavas. Warofdreams talk 16:11, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, judging by the photo's, by "Bally's" they mean balaclavas: often worn by individuals intending to engage in political violence. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:15, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Confirmed in this article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:39, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Is that the wrong link or is there some reference to ballys or even balaclavas in that 1913 article about rabbit foot company that I missed? BTW the image mentioned above appears to be number 5 for me. Nil Einne (talk) 20:10, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

What's a runekjevle?

81.131.33.14 (talk) 20:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, according to this article a "runekjevle" is a "cylinder shaped piece of wood with a smooth side for the runes". There are a few photos online of the remains of such items. Here's one I found: http://www.arild-hauge.com/arild-hauge/rune-N648.jpg --The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 20:32, 23 November 2010 (UTC)