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→The Killer Used to Be a Left-wing Political Extremist?: Charged, but not convicted; we shouldn't describe him as the killer, even on talk.
Tag: Reverted
Reverted 1 edit by Jim Michael 2 (talk)
Line 119: Line 119:
::The [https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2022/05/15/buffalo-shooting-gun-bought-bushmaster/ Washington Post source] says "In one posting, Gendron admitted to illegally modifying the weapon in another way. He wrote that he used his father’s power drill to remove a state-mandated lock that prevented the attachment of magazines with more than 10 rounds of ammunition."--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 07:23, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
::The [https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2022/05/15/buffalo-shooting-gun-bought-bushmaster/ Washington Post source] says "In one posting, Gendron admitted to illegally modifying the weapon in another way. He wrote that he used his father’s power drill to remove a state-mandated lock that prevented the attachment of magazines with more than 10 rounds of ammunition."--'''''[[User:ianmacm|<span style="background:#88b;color:#cff;font-variant:small-caps">♦Ian<span style="background:#99c">Ma<span style="background:#aad">c</span></span>M♦</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:ianmacm|(talk to me)]]</sup>''''' 07:23, 29 May 2022 (UTC)


== Gendron used to be a left-wing political extremist? ==
== The Killer Used to Be a Left-wing Political Extremist? ==

Is it worth including the factoid when describing the shooter's personal background that he was of the 'authoritarian left-wing' before embracing national socialist ideology and related beliefs? I'm not so sure about this. Not to get ideological here, but I guess the cross-pollination between neo-Nazism and neo-Stalinism in both the U.S. and other Anglospheren nations is intense? Given the [[Comparison of Nazism and Stalinism|links between Nazism and Stalinism]]? [[User:CoffeeWithMarkets|CoffeeWithMarkets]] ([[User talk:CoffeeWithMarkets|talk]]) 04:31, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Is it worth including the factoid when describing the shooter's personal background that he was of the 'authoritarian left-wing' before embracing national socialist ideology and related beliefs? I'm not so sure about this. Not to get ideological here, but I guess the cross-pollination between neo-Nazism and neo-Stalinism in both the U.S. and other Anglospheren nations is intense? Given the [[Comparison of Nazism and Stalinism|links between Nazism and Stalinism]]? [[User:CoffeeWithMarkets|CoffeeWithMarkets]] ([[User talk:CoffeeWithMarkets|talk]]) 04:31, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
: [[Comparison of Nazism and Stalinism]] is the right link, so why the unexpected surprise? Don't make misleading links. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 05:03, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
: [[Comparison of Nazism and Stalinism]] is the right link, so why the unexpected surprise? Don't make misleading links. -- [[User:Valjean|Valjean]] ([[User talk:Valjean|talk]]) ('''''[[Help:Notifications|PING me]]''''') 05:03, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:27, 1 June 2022

Requested move 19 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 02:09, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2022 Buffalo shooting → Buffalo supermarket shooting – Place usually takes precedent over date. See WP:NOYEAR Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 16:17, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly, mass shootings have become so common in the U.S. in the last decade or two that, at least for me, the rationale of WP:NOYEAR is looking weaker and weaker as applied. As ever, reasonable minds may differ. Dumuzid (talk) 16:21, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My reading of WP:NOYEAR is that the date should be included unless the event is of extremely great prominence. Given the (horrific) regularity of mass shootings in the US, I find it unlikely for any such event to rise to that level. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:30, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No other supermarket shooting has taken place in Buffalo that is anywhere near notable. There is no other shooting in Buffalo's history (besides the Assassination of William McKinley) that is so notable. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 16:44, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the source about the average of 254 Buffalo shootings per year-- [New year begins in Buffalo with more deadly gun violence https://buffalonews.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/new-year-begins-in-buffalo-with-more-deadly-gun-violence/article_ba5def68-6b3b-11ec-9b07-cfbdfc215bd5.html] Respectfully, Chesapeake77 >>> ♥ Truth 10:27, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The one that has enough notability to have a Wikipedia article. If we create two articles about mass shootings in Buffalo in supermarkets, then we can use the year to differentiate them. --Jayron32 12:49, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as the proposed title is less ambiguous and has been used in sources from AP and CNN. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 13:59, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose "Supermarket" is a non-necessary disambiguator. Someone above wrote that there may be more shootings. If that should happen, we'll fix it then. GenQuest "scribble" 15:18, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The year is a useful identifier, and aids recognition for readers of any era, to distinguish it from an event from the 1990s, 1970s, 2000s or any other time. The "supermarket" isn't vital though, it is primarily identified with Buffalo alone and unless another shooting occurs there this year, it's unnecessary.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:21, 20 M" ay 2022 (UTC)
@Jayron32 @Amakuru @GenQuest then the title should be, "2022 Buffalo mass shooting". Also with 250+ shootings in Buffalo a year, there could be another Wikipedia article appearing at any time.
Also-- People find Wikipedia with Google searches. How many "Buffalo shootings" might be coming up in the same search, making it hard to find this article? Right now, this one will come to the top, but as the weeks go by, it won't. "2022 Buffalo mass shooting" will prevent this problem.
Respectfully, Chesapeake77 >>> ♥ Truth 15:55, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Unlikely, as with any topic, not every shooting has enough reliable source text to create a stand-alone Wikipedia article about it. This one does. None of those other 250 or so do. --Jayron32 15:58, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jayron32 People find Wikipedia with Google searches. How many "Buffalo shootings" might be coming up in the same search, making it hard to find this article?
Right now, this one will come to the top, but as the weeks go by, it won't. "2022 Buffalo mass shooting" will prevent this problem.
Respectfully, Chesapeake77 >>> ♥ Truth 16:13, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My position on the matter is already clear and unambiguous, and this discussion would not benefit from further commentary by me. Your position is also similarly well-explained at this point. Maybe let other voices get heard. --Jayron32 17:27, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This material does not support your argument; all of the sources describe the shooting at a supermarket. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a newspaper, it is our duty as editors to review the sourcing and form an encyclopedic title derived from those sources. Buffalo supermarket shooting is the appropriate title in this case. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 17:11, 23 May 2022 (UTC)*[reply]
The term Buffalo shooting is the most common, popular name used by the majority of verifiable third-party English sources. Therefore, it is preferred that 2022 Buffalo shooting remains the title. The title already meets the five criteria set forth for title naming conventions in the MOS, as there's no evidence of any other shooting in Buffalo that could be confused with this one. The strongest arguments for changing the title have been the anticipation of another shooting, and it's already been stated that Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, so that voids that argument. Article titles and redirects should also anticipate what readers will type as a first guess and what they'll expect to be taken to. Using that metric, the term Buffalo shooting is much more popular as a search term than Buffalo supermarket shooting. Readers who type Buffalo shooting will expect to be taken to an article about the 2022 Buffalo shooting, per the spike in search terms after the shooting. Cadenrock1 (talk) 13:49, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. "Tops Friendly Markets shooting" I think would be a better title.TheNewMinistry (talk) 03:59, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose "Supermarket" is not a "place" in general terms. This will just be confusing. Buffalo is a "place". Time is more relevant here. Unless RS is more concerned with identifying the word "supermarket" than the year the subject occurred (which doesn't seem to track with RS typically), this is an easy "oppose". DN (talk) 04:07, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Manifesto

should we include a page from the shooter's alleged manifesto for its subsection?--🐦DrWho42👻 18:43, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted this edit because it has problems with MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE. There are also WP:NFCC problems because it is being used under fair use criteria. To include it, it would have to say something that could not be explained by text. We know from reliable sources that the author of the manifesto/alleged shooter apparently researched the Tops store before the shooting. The diagram doesn't tell us much more than that, so it has problems with NFCC#8.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 19:01, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 28 May 2022

In a part of the text about the perpetrator it is mentioned that he modified the gun to receive 30 round clips. I just want to mention that no gun needs to be modified to hold extra rounds . You just buy a larger magazine. So maybe change it to say equipped with a 30 round mag? 79.107.9.8 (talk) 23:41, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: While that may certainly be possible, Wikipedia reports on what reliable sources say about something. Just because it was theoretically not necessary for the shooter to modify the gun itself doesn't mean he didn't. —Sirdog (talk) 23:52, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Washington Post source says "In one posting, Gendron admitted to illegally modifying the weapon in another way. He wrote that he used his father’s power drill to remove a state-mandated lock that prevented the attachment of magazines with more than 10 rounds of ammunition."--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 07:23, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Killer Used to Be a Left-wing Political Extremist?

Is it worth including the factoid when describing the shooter's personal background that he was of the 'authoritarian left-wing' before embracing national socialist ideology and related beliefs? I'm not so sure about this. Not to get ideological here, but I guess the cross-pollination between neo-Nazism and neo-Stalinism in both the U.S. and other Anglospheren nations is intense? Given the links between Nazism and Stalinism? CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 04:31, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comparison of Nazism and Stalinism is the right link, so why the unexpected surprise? Don't make misleading links. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 05:03, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What "misleading links"? What the hell? CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 15:20, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The implications of your surprise and misleading/forbidden WP:EASTEREGG link ("links between Nazism and Stalinism") is that there is a direct link, not just a "comparison", as the actual link describes. That threw me for a loop. Two opposites can be compared without there being a direct link. Maybe you just misread or misremembered the actual link? No biggie, as this is a talk page where it's not as serious a matter as if it was done in an article. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:00, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I genuinely don't understand what you're upset about. I guess we can both drop it, though. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 18:14, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@CoffeeWithMarkets, Yes, I think it's worth including because multiple reliable sources mention that he changed his political views from left to far right in the span of 2 years after getting deep into 4chan and the Daily Stormer, initially while being at home during the pandemic. There have historically been links between Nazism and Stalinism, as that Wikipedia article does a good job of explaining, but I haven't read any articles saying the Buffalo shooter was a neo-Stalinist. "Authoritarian left" includes more than just Stalin. JJMM (talk) 07:25, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@James James Morrison Morrison In his manifesto however, it states that he was a communist but moved away from communism to his current beliefs from the ages of 15-18 and states he "falls in the mid-moderate authoritarian left category and would prefer to be called a populist" later going on to state "I would prefer to call myself a populist,but you can call me an ethno-nationalist,eco-fascist,national socialist if you want,I would disagree with you". Basedosaurus (talk) 14:30, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
He was initially a totalitarian leftist, and then he became a neo-Nazi (among other things). Pretty simple and straightforward. Not that much of an evolution, really. Many if not most of the historical Nazis in Europe started out as left-wing authoritarian types (sharing the same hatreds of capitalism, democracy, disabled people, Jews, LGBT people, et cetera). Hitlerism is Stalinism with a different mustache (and vise versa). CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 17:43, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Basedosaurus, your edits appear to be an attempt to erase the shooter's political evolution from left to right. What's up with that? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:07, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Im sorry if it seems that way,I assure you it's not. Basedosaurus (talk) 18:10, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just a general reminder here that we should be tracing things as much as possible to reliable secondary sources. I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't trust the suspect here to be accurate about anything, including categorizing his own political beliefs. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 18:12, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Labels such as "fascist", "Nazi", and "white supremacist" are sourced, yes, and that's an important point. It's diffcult, as you stated, in terms of his own beliefs as to how they evolved specifically... can he be trusted to accurately describe his own personal life? Is there any reason to not have a pinch of salt there? Agreed. As of this exact moment (1:18pm central time in the U.S.), the article seems alright to me. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 18:19, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"The shooter said blah blah blah" is a Simon says game. The manifesto is a jumbled up screed of nonsense and internet memes. It shouldn't be taken too literally.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:22, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Should also be mentioned that mass shooters will frequently outright lie about clear-cut things (i.e. where they lived, who they dated, what they read, and so on). CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 18:31, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

'Domestic Terrorism Prevention Act' Mentioned Here

To what extent has the defeat of the legislation advanced after the Buffalo shooting changed things? Will the measure be tried again? What exactly was brought up when Republicans opposed it? There's a lot of context that probably should be added to this article (I actually am not personally sure on these issues myself, hence why I'm making this discussion)? CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 19:55, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would argue that none of this should be included, at least not yet. There's every possibility that it will amount to a tempest in a teapot, and fail to meet the WP:10YT. By my lights, we should leave it out until we know it's actually something noteworthy and not just the usual cut and thrust of legislative activity. As ever, just one old guy's opinion. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 19:58, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I could counter-argue that the Biden administration has made anti-domestic-terrorism efforts a fundamental part of their domestic policy goals alongside building infrastructure and expanding healthcare services, and the association of something with Biden personally makes it notable-ish at least. Yet, as I said before, I'm uncertain on this. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 21:49, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Allen, Mike. "Buffalo shooting punctuates eruption of deadly weekend violence". Retrieved May 23, 2022.
  2. ^ Blackwell, Victor; Watts, Amanda; Levenson, Eric; Caldwell, Travis (May 17, 2022). "Buffalo shooting suspect visited the area in early March, police and alleged gunman's posts say". Retrieved May 23, 2022.
  3. ^ "Buffalo Shooting: Suspect Invited Others to Review His Plan". Retrieved May 23, 2022.
  4. ^ Amiri, Farnoush; Freking, Kevin. "House passes domestic terrorism bill in response to Buffalo shooting".
  5. ^ "The youngest of the 10 people killed in the Buffalo shooting was laid to rest".
  6. ^ L. Alexander, Keith; Williams, Vanessa. "For members of Mother Emanuel, Buffalo shooting stirs painful memories".
  7. ^ Gallagher, Tommy. "Arrests made in connection to downtown Buffalo shooting early Saturday".
  8. ^ Gecker, Josslyn; Hollingsworth, Heather. "School counselors sound cry for help after Buffalo shooting".
  9. ^ Maxouris, Christina; Gast, Phil. "The Buffalo supermarket massacre is the latest mass shooting authorities say was motivated by hate. Here are others".
  10. ^ Levenson, Eric; Jorgensen, Sarah; Sandoval, Polo; Beech, Samantha. "Mass shooting at Buffalo supermarket was a racist hate crime, police say".
  11. ^ Vago, Steven; Raskin, Sam; Propper, David. "Buffalo supermarket shooting victims include food pantry head, ex-fire chief's mom".
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