Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Bold, or disruptive?

I am having a lot of trouble determining if Closed Limelike Curves (talk · contribs) is editing voting articles boldly or disruptively. For example, they rewrote Primary election so that it referred to partisan primary elections, and then moved the article in mid-September, changing primary election to a disambig page, which triggered a fair number of semi-automatic updates. After I moved it back to the original title a week ago, he held a short discussion involving two (I think) other editors and declared there was consensus to move it back to his preferred title.

Over at Instant-runoff voting, there was a similar problem. He tried to start a discussion at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, but there seemed to be broad agreement that there was not a content dispute, but rather a problem with CLC's editing methods.

CLC is not a newbie - they've been editing like this for some time. Their request for Page Mover in August was denied because of too many reversals.

So... any suggestions on the best way to get this obviously-good-faith editor back on track? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:33, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

My impression is that they are editing in good faith, behave civilly, and respond well to criticism of specific edits, but then keep coming back again and again with different angles to push a non-neutral pov into our voting system articles. I'm not entirely sure of their pov but it seems to involve the promotion of range voting and putting down instant runoff voting as an alternative, focused on their application to parliamentary elections to the exclusion of the many other applications of voting systems. For the latest see Talk:Instant-runoff voting § cherry picked and politically-motivated source in lede regarding an incident where they added a neutral and factual statement but chose an unreliable and non-neutral source. See also the other incidents I linked to at dispute resolution: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mutual majority criterion (2nd nomination), Template:Did you know nominations/Highest averages method, Talk:Arrow's impossibility theorem/GA2, and a user talk page thread from last August.

Given the long-term disruption that this has involved, the time sink this has produced for multiple other editors, and the distortion of the neutrality of our voting articles, my suggestion would be to push them to edit some other topic that might be less fraught for them than voting. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:49, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

CLC is not a newbie

Worth noting I've only been making substantial edits for under a year, so I'm still pretty new.

I don't see the issue with requesting a move for the primary page—in addition to only requesting it (rather than moving it myself), 4 editors expressed support for moving the page to partisan primary to avoid ambiguity with nonpartisan primary (@Philosopher Spock, @Toadspike, and @McYeee) and making the primary page into either a disambiguation or broad-concept article. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 01:19, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

CLC also started a move discussion on Talk:Smith set, and when I told Lime that we needed sources for the name, not "it makes more sense", they answered Are we not allowed to include "this term makes more sense to normal people" as a consideration at all, when choosing between multiple similarly-notable names? That would certainly have changed my behavior with regard to most of the moves I've made, since generally that's the justification I've used—in all these situations, the page move was from one common name in the literature to another, similarly-common name that I think is more intuitive or memorable to the average person. On a new article, this would make sense, but after 13 years at a title, I think we need a bit more than that. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

...huh. TIL there's a completely different policy for page moves than there is for edits. (In body text there's no presumption against changing things—"I think this phrasing is better" is a perfectly valid reason for an edit.) Sorry about that, then. I guess one more question:

Changing one controversial title to another without a discussion that leads to consensus is strongly discouraged.

When the policy says "controversial", does this mean something like "someone might like the old title better" (limiting undiscussed moves to stuff like fixing typos)? Or something closer to "the title is often the subject of dispute/disagreement"? – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 16:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, "we're going to have to change the incoming links from several hundredthousand articles" is a decent indication of controversial. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 22:05, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

OK, then I'm back to being confused; doesn't the redirect left behind handle that automatically? – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 03:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Wasn't that problem caused by tagging the deleted article titled primary election as a disambiguation page and then people making semi-automated edits under the assumption that the tag was correct? Or is this a different incident? McYeee (talk) 04:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Involved editor here. Can you restore the deleted disambiguation to draftspace or userspace? I thought I remembered it having multiple editors, and that seems relevant to this thread. Regardless of how this thread goes, I'd also like to try to find those semi-automated edits again because they seemed to have a significant number of errors. McYeee (talk) 06:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Any chance that this is Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Soulspinr? Specifically the sock Ontario Teacher BFA BEd was very into electoral systems and prolific. The edits here and maybe [1][2] seem particularly striking. (This is not the result of a comprehensive check.) --JBL (talk) 00:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to run a sockcheck, but I don't think our interests overlap much. I think in the first edit we're expressing almost-opposite suggestions, though; I was thinking of using AMS as the name for what most people call MMPR, i.e. the New Zealand/devolved UK system, then expanding the scope of the MMPR article to discuss other kinds of mixed rules. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 17:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think CLC is a sock. Judging by the sockpuppet archive, Ontario Teacher BFA BEd and his socks seem to have focused considerably more on concrete political figures and Canadian politics, e.g. People's Party of Canada, Kevin O'Leary, and Justin Trudeau. Wotwotwoot (talk) 17:38, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Some additional notes and corrections on this:

For example, they rewrote Primary election so that it referred to partisan primary elections and then moved the article in mid-September,

I didn't rewrite the article much, except for the minimum necessary to change the title. The article was already about partisan primaries. However, at the time the article was written, these were the only kind of primary elections, and so the article did not make a distinction. The title "partisan primary" is more explicit and less likely to cause confusion.

In this case, the move was a response to the semantic drift, with nonpartisan primary having become a common way to refer to the first round of a two-round system, after the states of California and Washington adopted this terminology. The consensus on the talk seems to agree that the majority of the article belongs at "partisan primary", with disagreement about whether the old title of "primary election" should be a disambig or an article (McYee and Toadspike supporting an article vs. PhilosopherSpock preferring a disambig).

changing primary election to a disambig page, which triggered a fair number of semi-automatic updates.

I believe someone else changed it to a disambiguation page, which is what caused the disruption. I left it as a redirect, which shouldn't have caused any issues. I'm a bit confused by this ANI since nobody seems to have raised any actual objections to the move, just questions about what to do with the redirect that got left behind. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 16:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

my view is that this editor is an intentional civil POV pusher with frequent diffs, additions, or wholesale rewrites to social choice related pages to make them 1. more focused specifically on political elections rather than objects of mathematical study and 2. to emphasize certain refrains common in the amateur election reform community, namely those around IRV and STV's ability to exhibit certain behaviors, and extended & out-of-place soapboaxing about cardinal utilities vs ordinal

When called out on specific technical concerns this editor is willing to play ball by Wikipedia's rules, but the pattern of behavior shows an extremely clear lack of objectivity and technical expertise. And it is quite the burden of work for other editors to keep up with correcting all the affected articles.

please see Talk:Instant-runoff voting#Lede once again has turned into a soapbox

and associated recent (enormous) diffs https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Instant-runoff_voting&diff=prev&oldid=1254146037 that had been actively being discussed on talk page without consensus Affinepplan (talk) 18:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

One particular comment in the thread Affinepplan mentions above is where Lime claims The ANI thread is for the unrelated question of whether I made too many page moves. First, that's not an unrelated question, second, it's the quality of the moves, not the quantity, and third, it's not about if your moves are disruptive, but your editing in general. I'm focusing on the moves in this report because they can do the most damage, but they are hardly the only problem. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this, and as an involved editor who finds myself agreeing with Lime about half the time, I'm sure he's civil, but I can't really tell who's doing the POV pushing. McYeee (talk) 20:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Depending on how strict you are about it, you could say either all of us or none of us are, which is why I usually try to avoid discussions like "XYZ is POV-pushing". Even if the other person is completely correct about everything, it's a fact of human nature that I'm going to feel like anyone who disagrees with me is a biased POV-pusher. Much better to instead focus on whether the content itself is up to scratch and adequately-sourced. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 23:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

That's a good initial position, but as the civil POV pushing page suggests, it may be insufficient when facing a determined POV pusher. POV pushers can wear down other editors by sheer persistence, and such actions can't be rebuffed by just looking at the content in isolation. Wotwotwoot (talk) 00:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Sockpuppet or no, CLC's editing at Instant-runoff voting continues to be out of control. Today, after being reverted for an 11k-character addition to the lead (!) with the reverting edit summary being "30 references in the lede, skipping levels of header - please review WP:LAYOUT" their response was to reinstate even-longer versions of the same changes, twice. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, @SarekOfVulcan reverted some of my changes on the grounds that I'd accidentally skipped levels in headers (i.e. went straight from 4→6), as stated in the edit summary. As a result, I reinstated the changes after correcting the formatting errors. If Sarek has some other disagreement regarding the content of the page, he can undo my edit and explain why he still dislikes the new version in the edit summary. (By the way, I did it twice because a user complained about the length of the restore the first time. I self-reverted the page back to Sarek's version, then broke the edit into two chunks to create an easier-to-read diff.) – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 23:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

see also the re-addition here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Instant-runoff_voting&diff=prev&oldid=1254208089 of a reverted diff due to POV concerns without having reached consensus in an active topic on the talk page Affinepplan (talk) 00:11, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban on Electoral systems

I believe, fundamentally, that actions speak louder than words, even in a place like Wikipedia, a very huge collection of words where words are kinda the point.

My now months-long interactions with CLC have generally been more about how this editor edits, although what they've added or removed has also been a feature.

• From day one, this editor has made large, sweeping changes (frequently more than 5000 characters and often more than 10,000) with little to no edit summaries. Those large edits frequently span multiple article sections, making it very hard for other editors to review them.
• They have removed sourced content without any explanation or sourcing to explain why the original content is not valid. (removed in this again large edit, partially restored by me here)
• They have, either deliberately or inadvertently, ignored or misinterpreted guidelines such as MOS:BOLDSYN (such as here)
• Even before they moved a years-long stable article that is the straw that broke many other editors' backs and led to this entry at ANI (Instant-runoff voting to Ranked-choice voting), they attempted to make "Ranked-choice voting" the lead "title" of the article, as seen here.
• They have introduced factual errors which can easily be refuted by consulting sources—see the changes to the formula used to calculate the Droop quota in this (again, massive, multi-section) edit (something that may have been able to be avoided if their edits were smaller).

At every turn, I and other editors have attempted to point out the inconsistencies and problems with not just the content of CLC's edits but also how those edits have been made. Over months. All of this feedback, all the requests for discussion and consensus, have fallen on very deaf ears.

So as far as assuming good faith goes, CLC has had that, by a mile. And however conciliatory and reasonable this editor may be able to make themselves sound, if you look at the timestamp of that comment and then compare that to the timestamp of Sarek having opened this discussion here, you can also see a related pattern.

Then you just have to look at the actions CLC has taken while this ANI discussion has been happening. They have continued to edit in the same way and they have continued to edit one of the very same articles that was highlighted in this ANI entry. They have continued their problematic editing in other electoral system–related articles throughout this process. Those actions do not speak of someone who respects this process or respects the norms and guidelines of the larger project. So ultimately, I don't care at this point what CLC says—I care about what they do. And what they have done, and continue to do, is be disruptive and dismissive of anyone who attempts, however nicely, to get them to course correct while spouting empty apologies and promises of modifying their behaviour and blaming it all on being a new editor when they get called out.

Given all this, a move restriction is not a suitable action to fix the many issues. The recent "bold" move of Instant-runoff voting is a symptom of the problem, not the underlying issue. I believe a substantially lengthy topic ban for CLC around any articles to do with electoral systems is the only remedy at this point other than a full ban. —Joeyconnick (talk) 19:07, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I entirely concur with your summary. Affinepplan (talk) 19:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I will summarize the complaints in the bullet points here.

1. In my first few months of editing, my edits were too long and changed more than one section of an article.
2. 8 months ago, when I'd just started editing, I didn't use an edit summary while slimming down an article.
3. I made bolding and formatting mistakes.
4. While making an edit incorporating information from an older version of the article (the one titled RCV), I accidentally placed the old title at the start of the article.
5. I supposedly introduced a mistake into an article 5 months ago. (I'll briefly note that consultations with sources here, here, or here all disagree this is a mistake.)

I find this particular quote surprising:

At every turn, I and other editors have attempted to point out the inconsistencies and problems with not just the content of CLC's edits but also how those edits have been made. Over months. All of this feedback, all the requests for discussion and consensus, have fallen on very deaf ears.

I received no feedback on any of these edits; you won't find any discussion of them on talk. Whenever I did receive feedback I quickly incorporated it, e.g. when I received a notification telling me I'd been reverted with this edit summary, I took it and broke it into much smaller chunks. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 20:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

> I received no feedback on any of these edits;

you absolutely have. please don't try to gaslight the readers of this thread. multiple authors (including myself) have given you quite direct feedback on multiple occasions

for example, this thread on your User Talk Page https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Closed_Limelike_Curves&diff=prev&oldid=1243047873 where @Superb Owl was attempting to give you some good feedback, but you chose to argue back and blame other editors instead of accepting the feedback. Affinepplan (talk) 21:07, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I support whatever disciplinary action is deemed necessary - I think it is an opportunity to help CLC grow as an editor Superb Owl (talk) 21:11, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that there has been problematic editing by CLC, and that action is warranted. I think a "substantially lengthy topic ban" could be too severe, though, depending on how one defines "substantially lengthy". @Joeyconnick: approximately how long did you have in mind? -- RobLa (talk) 00:37, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi RobLa—I have no idea what the standards are for lengths of topic bans. I feel like something in the range of weeks is not going to have sufficient impact, so something in the "x months" range is what I was thinking. It looks like many of the ones listed at WP:EDRC are indefinite, and the ones that aren't are 6 months to a year, so 6 to 12 months seems reasonable to me. I'm sure any admin would have a better idea of what might be suitable and I would defer to them; this is one of the few ANI discussions I've participated in and I freely admit I'm not familiar with how they go and what the norms are. —Joeyconnick (talk) 03:29, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Joeyconnick, thanks for the thoughtful response. I think the goal is rehabilitation rather than punishment, since I think they have made some valuable contributions, and could be good for the long-term health of the project. My hunch (both from their editing here and on electowiki) is that they are perennially impulsive and impatient, and that short punishment will seem like an eternity to them, and a long ban from the topic they are most passionate about may send a message that we want to burn the bridge with them (which I hope we don't). I also don't know what is typical/customary, but my inclination would be to have a shorter topic ban (e.g. 3 months or maybe even shorter), but with a much longer probationary period after that. If after having their electoral editing privileges restored, they resume problematic behavior, I'll be likely to concede that I was wrong about them, and a much longer topic ban (e.g. measured in years or even indefinite) should be considered. Does that seem reasonable? -- RobLa (talk) 07:57, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

That sounds really fair and I appreciate you explaining your rationale so thoroughly—I'm sure that is helpful for everyone following, not just me. I think the probationary period after, not something I had considered or realized was possible, will hopefully help keep things on track. —Joeyconnick (talk) 18:20, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm admittedly just winging it myself. It would seem that "probation" or "supervised editing" is an editing restriction that is sometimes imposed, and that we can impose whatever restrictions we feel we can get consensus on. It would be helpful if @Closed Limelike Curves weighed in with an effective apology followed by a suggestion for what measures seem fair to them. -- RobLa (talk) 19:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Supervised editing is solely based on the editor that you are supervising. I have seen it done on a now community blocked editor who failed to listen to the person who was looking after their edits and would consistently argue with them. However, it could work out if the editor that is being supervised is not hostile and I don't think CLC gives that behavior. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 02:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Who are you suggesting supervise Lime? McYeee (talk) 20:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@McYeee, I am not suggesting that it should happen but just telling that it can be a very problematic option. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 21:27, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for bothering you; my threading was bad. If anyone here still supports supervision, I would appreciate their answer to my question, but I get that you have not expressed that support. McYeee (talk) 21:42, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I think Joey's complaints about my edits prior to September are perfectly spot-on. They were disorganized, long, spanned several sections, rarely included edit summaries (only ~40%), and included frequent formatting errors. (Well, given the extreme length of WP:MOS, chances are I'm still making formatting errors.) I can understand Joey's frustration, particularly given there's a few cases where I've accidentally re-introduced MOS errors after Joey fixed them (after missing his edit summaries).

I also strongly agree with Joey's comment that actions speak louder than words. To give an example of this: after Joey brought the lack of substantial edit summaries to my attention back in July, my use of edit summaries went up from ~40% up to over 95% (according to xtools). Unfortunately, I'm not aware of a similar tool for edit length, but since reading his comments, I've made a substantial effort to try and limit the scope of my edits (typically to only one section). If you still feel some of my edits are difficult to review despite this, please feel free to revert and let me know so I can correct this. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 21:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Please note that while this discussion is occurring, despite the conciliatory and apologetic attitude higher in the thread, CLC continues to aggressively push controversial edits that have been previously reverted. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ranked-choice_voting&diff=prev&oldid=1255569535 from just today, Nov 5. Affinepplan (talk) 17:03, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

"Aggressively push controversial edits" like reverting an undiscussed redirect→disambiguation switch that's going to mess up who-even-knows how many links, like @Sarek Of Vulcan just complained about upthread? – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 17:34, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

what you're not mentioning is that the disambiguation was in place stably for 3 years in https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ranked-choice_voting&diff=prev&oldid=1030163143 before you imposed an undiscussed disambiguation->redirect switch in July https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ranked-choice_voting&diff=prev&oldid=1237524501 Affinepplan (talk) 17:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

What you're also not mentioning is it was created as a redirect, left as a redirect for 2 years before that, and you labeled it vandalism and brought it to ANI instead of trying literally any other method of dispute resolution (like discussing on talk). – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 18:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

it was relevant to this discussion as it is a prime example of your repeated behavior despite all the feedback. as others have mentioned, WP: Civil POV pushing is hard to characterize with isolated edits or talk page discussions, and rather represents a pattern over a long period of time and many articles. Affinepplan (talk) 18:20, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

In this case, aren't the controversial edits by you and Granger? Is there a discussion I missed on some other talk page on whether it should be a redirect or a disambiguation page? McYeee (talk) 18:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't controversial for 3 years until CLC decided to change it. Affinepplan (talk) 19:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

What makes this a case of civil POV pushing and not one of article ownership? Why doesn't the fact that it took months for Lime's edit to be reverted demonstrate the formation of a new consensus? McYeee (talk) 22:54, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

because not that many people contribute to these articles and 3 years is significantly longer than 3 months. Affinepplan (talk) 00:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Please don't add extra emphasis on your message like bolding your text or using highlight to your text. Everyone else's messages matter just as much as yours. You can read more at WP:SHOUT. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 20:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

mb, I was trying to replicate the green block-highlighting higher in the thread. Affinepplan (talk) 20:47, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Thats a {{Talk quote}} and shouldn't be used unless you are restating another person's talk page message, an excerpt of it, or from a policy. Not from your own talk page message. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 20:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposed move restriction

I'd like to suggest that Lime be restricted from moving any pages until they demonstrate that they understand when pages should and should not be moved. At Talk:Preferential voting, they just suggested moving the dab page to a (disambig) title and redirecting it to Ranked-choice voting, because TL;DR is that it looks like the majority of searches for PV are from Australia, which uses it to mean RCV. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:36, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

This is a straightforward application of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I suggested the page instant-runoff voting/RCV is the primary topic, because "preferential voting" is overwhelmingly an Australian term used to mean RCV. I raised this issue on the talk page for discussion and did not move the page myself. How would that be disruptive? – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 16:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that proposing to move a page on a talk page should not be used as a basis for imposing a restriction on moving pages -- seeking consensus like this is what we should be encouraging. CapitalSasha ~ talk 16:39, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Asking, or starting a move discussion, isn't what I'd consider disruptive. My concern is that Lime might go "ok, one person agreed with me, nobody else said anything, we're good" and moving a long-standing article title without any further input. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:42, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

This is a reasonable thing to comment on the talk page, to make sure it doesn't happen. On the other hand, restricting a user's move privileges because they hypothetically could have used them incorrectly, but didn't, seems bizarre; if anything, seeing an editor ask for consensus shows they're less likely to move pages incorrectly.

(And is "one person agreed with me" never enough to declare consensus, even for minor moves? At the extreme, I don't think correcting typos requires any discussion on talk. I'd like more clarity on exactly how much consensus is needed for different page moves, ideally with examples.) – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 17:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

There are about 80 thousand examples of move discussions if you search for "Requested move" but usually the easiest thing to do would be to start one and list it at WP:RM (well a bot does that for you, you just need to use the template).You get free examples that way, and only in pages that you're interested in, and as an added advantage if anyone gets dragged to ANI it would likely be someone else. Alpha3031 (t • c) 00:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like a very nice advantage for sure :) I'll keep it in mind. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 00:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I’m a fairly green editor and I find it very instructive to read and participate in open move discussions at WP:RMC and see how they are closed. You’ll see what’s controversial, the numerous policies and other considerations that support a title change/move, and how consensus is assessed. Typically if there is low participation or opinions are mixed a request is relisted or closed without moving. Moves are rather drastic changes and often arguments that might have been persuasive if we were deciding what to name a brand new article aren’t enough to change a stable title. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 03:11, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Will do, thanks! – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 22:41, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

PirateWires Wikipedia Investigation (Administrator Notice)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I am wanting to give a notice that Pirate Wires conducted a really detailed "investigation" into several Wikipedia editors over the last several months. The long news article includes several editor names and possible (I say possible as I am not casting accusations myself) violations of canvassing/coordinated efforts on Wikipedia as well as on Discord in regards to the Israel–Hamas war.

I am not, myself, accusing anyone and wished to bring this to the attention of administrators for further investigation to see if this article has ground to stand on or is baseless. The editors directly mentioned in the article will receive an AN/I notice as the news article itself accuses them of violating Wikipedia guidelines and policies. I have done no further investigation and am just simply doing the initial alert to the matter. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 04:18, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

The statement "Pirate Wires conducted a really detailed "investigation" into several Wikipedia editors over the last several months" is inaccurate. As I have said elsewhere, I see the primary utility of articles like this as

• a useful reminder of the Gell-Mann amnesia effect
• a way to identify actors with an elevated susceptibility to misinformation and manipulation and/or a willingness to generate or inject disinformation into Wikipedia's systems either directly or by employing external vectors.

The Tech for Palestine group is probably worthy of some investigation however, but as I said at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Israel#Canvassing, this does not appear to have happened, or at least no one has presented any evidence at the PIA5 discussions or at AE about individual accounts.

For background see the ongoing discussions about a possible PIA5 case at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment#Amendment_request:_Palestine-Israel_articles_(AE_referral).

Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah. Now see, I did not know it was already being discussed in ArbCom/other places already. That pretty much answered that. This discussion (on AN/I) can be closed as it seems there is already something being looked into and my alert was just late to the party more or less. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 04:42, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

The "investigation" is heavily based on material published at WP:ARCA. There's not a lot new out of it. It's extremely lazy journalism if you could call it that. TarnishedPath^talk 04:52, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Out of interest, and setting aside the casual defamation, I will be trying to track the effects within the PIA topic area. These kinds of articles are not unusual, but this particular one is quite a nice sharp external signal. So, it may be possible to see the effects as the information impacts the topic area and editors. I have seen this and this so far. "already being discussed" is maybe the wrong way around. There is discussion about a possible PIA5 case. The discussions have included quite a lot of statistical evidence. Unless it is a coincidence, I assume the article was produced to provide external pressure on ArbCom to reduce the likelihood of them not taking the case. So far me, as someone interested in the complicated dynamics of the PIA topic area, it is quite an interesting development. Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:08, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate for each of the editors involved in the ARCA discussion around PIA5 to be asked to confirm or deny whether they had any involvement in the Pirate Wires article? Onceinawhile (talk) 07:42, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think so and I'm not sure what this would achieve or what the goal with this questioning would be. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Nobody needs permission to ask questions in the PIA5 discussion and hope for open and honest answers. I have already asked BilledMammal since the article uses some of their data. If they have some background/context, they can share it openly, or they may know nothing about it and be surprised by the way their work has been used. Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Sean.hoyland, that seems reasonable. Do you know whether the second analysis in the Pirate Wires article - on co-editing - was also prepared by a user and discussed at ARCA? It is a nonsense analysis of course - it would look much the same if you cherry picked a similar number of editors who spend time in any topic area. But the interesting question is whether that analysis was prepared by Ashley Rindsberg (the write of the Pirate Wires article), or by someone else. And how did they know how to pull the underlying data? Onceinawhile (talk) 13:38, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Onceinawhile, Zero0000 asked something similar here so you can see my answer there. I hope the analysis wasn't done by anyone allowed to edit Wikipedia because it is horrifyingly dopey, the kind of thing that would get you immediately fired and escorted out of the building in my world. I don't know how the data was generated but the account list obviously comes from BilledMammal's list of accounts that have made 100 or more edits within the topic area since 2022. But the connection between the authors "amongst top 30 members of this group" statement and reality is not obvious to me e.g. why is Surtsicna there? They might be quite surprised to learn that they are pro-Hamas Wikipedia hijacker and might consider it defamatory and want the author to pay for them to buy a new nicer house or maybe a new car. It's easy enough for someone with access to generate page intersection counts for 30 accounts and produce a crosstab with code and share it as a google sheet, or maybe someone foolish did it manually using the Editor Interaction Analyzer tool. Sean.hoyland (talk) 14:23, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

In February, an explicitly coordinated effort was launched when leaders on a group called Tech For Palestine (TFP) — launched in January by Paul Biggar, the Irish co-founder of software development platform CircleCI — opened a channel on their 8,000-strong Discord channel called “tfp-wikipedia-collaboration.” In the channel, two group leaders, Samira and Samer, coordinated with other members to mass edit a number of PIA articles. The effort included recruiting volunteers, processing them through formal orientation, troubleshooting issues, and holding remote office hours to problem solve and ideate. The channel’s welcome message posed a revealing question: “Why Wikipedia? It is a widely accessed resource, and its content influences public perception.”

Uh, I am not an Israel-Palestine DS/GS understander, but I seem to remember when GSoW, EEML, etc did this we responded with something other than "close the ANI thread within an hour and tag the journo's page with {{notability}}". Is this being addressed at the arb case?? jp×g🗯️ 16:28, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

That's because there is existing precedent for dealing with this in the PIA area. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 16:32, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks. I agree enforcement is needed if there is an active lobbying group.

It may be that Samisawtak and BilledMammal can help with the investigation, as it seems they have previously been looking into this "tfp-wikipedia-collaboration". Per Samisawtak's edit page summarizing their 347 total edits, 159 were made at User:BilledMammal/tfp Wikipedia collaboration, 6 were made at User:BilledMammal/Samisawtak/tfp Wikipedia collaboration, and 1 was at User talk:Samisawtak/sandbox/tfp Wikipedia collaboration/Lily Greenberg Call.

Looking further All 17 editors who worked on User:BilledMammal/tfp Wikipedia collaboration may be able to help.

Onceinawhile (talk) 16:55, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Samisawtak is one of the editors involved in running the group. As for the article itself, it misses the actual issues with the group:

1. It is affiliated with an actual EEML-style mailing list, to the extent of coordinators recruiting for the list on the channel
2. It is used by community-banned editors, who have since being blocked engaged in the off-wiki harassment and outing of Wikipedia editors, to request edits be made - requests that are acted upon
3. It instructs non-ECP editors to make edits in the topic area

BilledMammal (talk) 01:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

BilledMammal, are you able to provide a list of the community-banned editors? I am always looking for test data from these kinds of actors. Sean.hoyland (talk) 07:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I’m not sure what I can provide without violating WP:OUTING, sorry. BilledMammal (talk) 07:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, I forgot about the Wikipedia rule that even connecting 2 anonymized strings across the on-wiki/off-wiki boundary is treated as a form of outing, a rule so strange to me that I can't even remember it. Nevermind then. Thanks. Sean.hoyland (talk) 08:27, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: agree that is for a private investigation by the proper authorities. In the meantime, please could you explain why they were using your user subpages for their work? Onceinawhile (talk) 07:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

They weren’t. They deleted those pages in an attempt to cover their tracks; I had them restored to my user space. BilledMammal (talk) 08:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

JPxG, I would say, no, the Tech For Palestine group is not being addressed in the PIA5 discussions in any detail, although it has come up. Some information about the group has been available since last June I believe, or thereabouts. One thing that is interesting about the Discord screenshots for me is statements like "I have been levelling up on WP by doing quite a few simple edits". This is what a lot of people do of course to cross or tunnel through the ARBECR barrier, but I would like to know whether this kind of "levelling up" activity is being done inside or outside of the topic area and whether the accounts have EC privileges or not. Most of the topic area is not EC protected. Many edits by non-EC editors in the topic area are given a pass/not noticed because they are "simple edits" or look/are constructive. This is a backdoor that is probably being exploited by activists and ban evading sockpuppets every day. Sean.hoyland (talk) 17:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I learned about this article and thread because WeatherWriter pinged me on my talk page. I'm sure there will be a proper investigation but just want to preemptively say that I have never heard of TFP, do not work in tech, and don't even have a Discord. Thanks. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 05:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, I have heard of TFP, and despite being one of the top 30 members of a powerful pro-Hamas group hijacking Wikipedia, and despite having okay tech skills, I did not even receive an invitation to join the group. This is the kind of thing people with feelings tell me can feel hurtful. I admire your optimistic 'I'm sure there will be a proper investigation' attitude, a view that I do not share. Sean.hoyland (talk) 06:12, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Say what? This seems extremely farfetched and far too convenient to be true.

Given that the vast majority of this world's population aware of the Israel-Hamas War statistically seem to be against the human rights violations that are happening to the Palestinians, and this is the international version of Wikipedia, isn't it far more likely and reasonable that a larger amount of Wikipedia editors would simply also share this viewpoint, whereas the editors who support the actions of the government of Israel would, without external backing, be considerably fewer in number, whereas the cited news article in question is a doctored, possibly Mossad-ordered, smear campaign in order to get almost all hindrances out of the way, so any sources that the Israeli government doesn't like can quickly be discredited and banned from any usage, especially Al Jazeera, and then remove virtually all public documentation of ongoing Israeli crimes against humanity from all Wikipedia pages related to the ongoing conflict? David A (talk) 20:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I would not describe the hypothesis outlined here as likely, nor as reasonable. jp×g🗯️ 22:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

No. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 22:16, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

This would assume that there are no editors willing to push back on what appears to be an active whitewashing/disinfo campaign, which doesn't pass the laugh test in the PIA area or on Wikipedia in general. Again, this has come up before. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 22:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

This seems like the kind of product produced by one or more fools for the sizable credulous fool market rather than by smart professionals in the IC. I assume the author's main objective could simply be engagement/chasing clicks, but the objective of anyone who helped them to produce the product, and that 'anyone' could be no one of course, is not obvious to me. It might become clearer over time. For example, it is already being used to undermine confidence in RfC closures and argue for relitigating RfCs, which is quite interesting. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:37, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I should add that in my experience, play-acting being a part of the Israeli IC doing important collection work is quite a common feature of anti-Palestine/pro-Israel activists interested in Wikipedia, and it is a comedy goldmine. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:54, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, there have been a few separate quite recent attempts to completely remove the English version of Al Jazeera as a reliable source in the past, as well as at least one attempt to remove +972 Magazine as well, so if this "journalist" succeeds in getting most of the editors who are against human rights abuses against Palestinians banned en masse, without any reliable evidence, that effort could easily be resumed by others and passed this time around. Then again, I have an overactive pattern-recognition. David A (talk) 06:17, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

A difference, I think, is that the arguments made to challenge the reliability of sources like Al Jazeera here tend to resemble the product of rational actors, whether you find them persuasive or not, rather than someone off their meds with paranoid dreams of anti-editor pogroms. Where are the Fred Fishers? Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:02, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay. My apologies if I went too far with the paranoia then. There has been quite a lot of agitation against Wikipedia from news and social media that support the Israeli government recently, and I have even been subjected to a few death threats here in Wikipedia because of it. David A (talk) 17:21, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Not you David A, the author of the article. The lack of clarity in my comments, kindly brought to my attention by Zanahary, is apparently never going to improve. Yes, editing in the PIA topic area can include a free death threat package thanks to the generosity of the more extreme anti-Palestine/pro-Israel activists. This package deal appears to expire though as I don't receive them anymore. The attacks on Wikipedia and editors will no doubt continue, and probably escalate. My view is that being attacked personally, defamed or whatever is not interesting. Don't let it distract you from continuing to do things that interest you here. The topic area needs as many editors as possible with a diverse set of biases and source sampling strategies to avoid an article neutrality version of this problem when population size n is too small. Sean.hoyland (talk) 02:32, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Sean.hoyland:

thanks to the generosity of the more extreme anti-Palestine/pro-Israel activists

FYI, this behavior goes in both directions. From what I've seen, the unacceptable behavior on the pro-Palestine/anti-Israel side is also more organized; for example, the covert canvassing on the pro-Israel side was organized by a single LTA spamming emails, while on the pro-Palestine side it is an organized group of editors. BilledMammal (talk) 02:47, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, no doubt there are attacks and all sorts of shenanigans from both ends of the spectrum. Sadly, I haven't been attacked by anti-Israel/pro-Palestine activists apart from the odd outlier, so from my perspective I must be doing something wrong. From my observations going back over a decade, it's just an objective fact that anti-Palestine/pro-Israel activism that targets Wikipedia and editors exists, has organized and lone-wolf components, has involved on-wiki and off-wiki individuals and multiple organizations (e.g. CAMERA and NGO Monitor) including multiple state sponsored influence operations. The pro-Palestine/anti-Israel activists will presumably learn from their opponent's mistakes and will probably have the capacity to dwarf pro-Israel activities if they choose that path. Visibility into these systems is obviously very limited, so it's hard to say anything sensible about the extent and effects, which may be small right now. Either way, Wikipedia is stuck in the middle and needs better countermeasures. Or maybe just let it go as it is an expensive problem Wikipedia does not have the tools to solve right now. I'm curious what would happen if part of the topic area was set aside for the activists and ban evading types to do whatever they want without ECR or sanctions with disclaimers added to the articles. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:07, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I should add the caveat that I'm very skeptical about my ability to understand or say anything accurate anything about the topic area because it's too complicated, and that skepticism even includes being unsure whether promoting things like civility, collaboration, social harmony is the best approach to produce the best articles in the long run. The topic area is apparently more attractive to new editors that Wikipedia in general (assuming this is accurate) and they very often don't come here for social harmony. Maybe lots of randomness and conflict would work better in the long run. I have no idea. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:27, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Just a note that at least in my case it isn't about being a tribalist and anti-Israel. It is about being pro-human rights (and animal rights) in general, and that I both believe in matter of fact reliable information being publicly available, as well as "not in my name" and "never again for anyone", the latter meaning that I don't want any innocent blood on my hands, even indirectly by association. David A (talk) 09:09, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, for many people out there, including journalists and people with an apparent elevated susceptibility to misinformation and manipulation, just following Wikipedia's rules can be indistinguishable from being anti-this or pro-that. The way for people to improve Wikipedia is for people to make the effort to learn the ropes, become editors and follow the rules. But apparently that is not as fun as complaining, attacking people, coming up with conspiracy theories etc. People love that stuff. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:41, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Like what, just have a /b/ where the pro- and anti- guys on any given topic are allowed to go hogwild and rack up 500 reverts a day and nobody gets blocked for acting like a clown? It doesn't seem like it would fix anything, but if nothing else I guess it would be amusing. jp×g🗯️ 18:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• If admins want to investigate Tech for Palestine, I welcome it. Separately, we shouldn’t assume editors simply editing in ARBPIA are part of some coordinated campaign. Evidence is needed. I am neither involved in Tech for Palestine or a coordinated ARBPIA campaign. starship.paint (talk / cont) 02:19, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• Just opened an AE thread related to this. [3] Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 15:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• I'm not sure why so many bytes are being wasted over a screed published in Mike Solana's blog by an author whose main literary output seems to be decrying the hwokes of Wikipeda. This "investigative report" is a nothing article from an unreliable source. Simonm223 (talk) 17:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Wait, isn't Mike Solana the guy who shot Andy Warhol? EEng 19:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  LOL That was Valerie Solanas - Mike Solana is just one of Peter Thiel's pet neoreactionary doofuses hangers-on. Simonm223 (talk) 20:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Since Warhol was shot 20 years before Mike Solana was born, you could be right. EEng 21:27, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Okay, here are a couple reasons:

  1. Nobody except Wikipedia editors gives a whit what we say about news outlets on our internally-maintained list of which sources are and aren't acceptable to use in mainspace articles. They do not stop existing because we write that they are bad on a project page. People still read them.
  2. If a screed says we did something dumb, and it is completely full of crap, then we should ignore it.
  3. If a screed says we did something dumb, and it is correct, then we should fix it.

  It's as shrimple as that. jp×g🗯️ 18:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• This discussion might be running out of steam but it seemed ridiculous that the bulk of the discussion here happened outside of an archived complaint on ANI. So, I reverted the closure of this discussion which happened prematurely. From my years of experience on Wikipedia, I don't see an "investigation" taking place here unless some editor or admin is willing to devote the time to preparing a case request for ARBCOM. That is the only forum that is structured for an investigation and it will definitely not happen as a result of a discussion on ANI. ANI is best for bringing to light urgent situations that need swift action or a community decision. Not an in-depth investigation. Close this discussion when you think it is appropriate. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:47, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  Just noting (as I’ve already done on my talk page) I’ve done the leg work, and will submit the case request tomorrow. BilledMammal (talk) 08:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for the update, BilledMammal. I think that if a case requrest is posted for arbitration review, then this discussion can be closed and moved there. Just as an aside, it is very difficult to prove coordinated editing unless you have some outside-Wikipedia sources and I don't know if PirateWires will be judged to be a reliable source. Still, I think enough editors are concerned about whether or not this claim is true to start an arbitration request. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:38, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Modifying a closed discussion to directly accuse another editor of bad faith

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The editor @Trulyy has modified a closed discussion on Talk:Tony Hinchcliffe in order to directly accuse me of bad faith edits. This editor, and others, has taken issue with my cautioning of other editors to remain neutral in their point of view when writing content for the article. Rob Roilen (talk) 13:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Without going deeper into what is getting to be a fairly messy content dispute, this at least is accurate: Trulyy modified a hatted discussion by adding an extra edit that was unsigned that was a comment purely about Rob Roilen some nine hours after it was closed. They should knock it off.

What I am also concerned about is that Trulyy has apparently gotten in the habit of mislabeling substantial edits as "minor," frequently when it's in a heated conversation involving ongoing political topics. This was labeled minor, as was a substantial edit about Ken Paxton's edits in a capital punishment article [4], adding a sentence describing a murder as an example of missing white woman syndrome [5], adding new content discussing Rich Lowry's use of a racial slur [6], adding new content quoting a Jack Posobiec comment and describing it as a thread of violence [7], and so on. While it's not worth more than a trout the first time, I'd remind Trulyy that WP:MINOR is only to be used on superficial changes to spelling, grammar, or structure, or blatant vandalism (or the result of a rollback) that nobody could reasonably argue with. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 14:36, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Hello, thank you for your contribution. I cleared up my reasoning for making the aforementioned comment a couple minutes ago. In regards to why it was purely about that user, it was because he was the dissenting user who did not understand what everyone else in the thread seemed to understand.

The article was, from all times I observed it, written from a neutral point of view, using objective language. Just because it was regarding negative actions, such as making jokes about racial stereotypes, does not mean it was edited in a negative tone. From what I gather you understand that, but I am letting you know just to clear up some of Rob's concerns. After reading the article, the reader was given the opportunity to make their own conclusions, not opinions given to them by the editor. As one user put it:

Buddy, you're trying to whitewash the article. NPOV doesn't mean "the comedian who was racist should have his page scrubbed clean, otherwise it's not neutral".

In regards to labeling substantial edits as minor, I apologize for doing so, I have not read up on all of wikipedia's rules in a while and was not completely familiar with what constituted a minor edit by wikipedia's standards, so thank you for informing me so I can do better. Trulyy (talk) 16:03, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I was just talking about the two issues (the one brought up and the one I saw). That whole talk page could definitely use a lower temperature, but I didn't mean to convey the idea that I thought that was your fault; it was simply meant as a general observation. If you will just leave hatted conversations be and be careful with that minor edit checkbox, that's certainly enough for me. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 19:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Hello. Thank you for your concern. I am not used to editing talk pages, this is maybe the third time I've edited a talk page, and as the thread I was trying to reply to was at the bottom, I did not take the time to scroll to the top to see the discussion was locked. Furthermore, when trying to post my reply in the locked discussion, I got an unclear error rather than an explanation of why I couldn't post, so I assumed it would be fine for me to edit it directly.

I'm regards to 'accusing you of bad faith edits', I don't recall doing such a thing, but what I do know is you repeatedly tried to edit a withstanding edit because you didn't feel the source was reliable, when it is listed as one of wikipedia's reliable sources. You were presented by several users with references explaining that your opinion on what a reliable source was does not trump wikipedia's lasting standards, and if you disagree with that to bring it up in the appropriate area, not in an edit war on a random page. Nonetheless, you continued to delete other information because you thought the sources unreliable, even though they are approved and acclaimed sources.

No one took issue with your notices. Several times you tried to bring up completely irrelevant arguments such as argument from authority when nothing remotely resembled such a thing.

As for disrespect and assuming bad faith, you started, from the get-go, doing that as seen below:

"What's happening right now is an insult to encyclopedic writing. The page cannot be edited except by editors with special privileges, and the only edits being made are meant to portray Tony negatively? What a joke. All credibility lost. You should be ashamed of yourselves for actively contributing to the degradation of open information sharing. This is not unbiased, neutral, accurate, factual writing. And to make it so much worse, you are literally preventing anyone who isn't in the Special Club from editing what boils down to opinions portrayed as fact. What leverage do the unprivileged editors have here? Who are you held accountable to? Yourselves? You don't see how this is dangerous? You don't think this makes it fair game for others to do the same to you?"

Trulyy (talk) 15:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore, your inability to assume good faith and engage in a civilized manner with other editors can be observed in the following thread:

collapsing long, undifferentiated copy-paste
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The reason that the article is locked due to arbitration enforcement by the Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee. It is also because of multiple unsourced additions to the article and additions of contentious topics without a reliable source. There is no way an article could be “biased” because any article needs a reliable, secondary, and independent source to talk about it and the editor adds information from that article and puts it in there. If you think that it is an issue, you can go to the arbitration committee directly. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 17:14, 28 October 2024 (UTC) "There is no way an article could be “biased” because any article needs a reliable, secondary, and independent source" Do you not see how problematic this is? When the mainstream sources Wikipedia deems as "reliable" regularly publish sensational, outright false information portrayed as fact, these sources are no longer reliable by definition. I think you guys need to take a long look at Argument from authority Like I said, this is just going to end up in a loop where privileged Wikipedia users block anyone else from making edits while pointing to The Rules and shrugging. Absolutely zero accountability. Rob Roilen (talk) 17:19, 28 October 2024 (UTC) If you have an issue with it, you can start a thread at the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Telling me anything isn’t gonna get you anywhere because I don’t care about arguing about the reliability of sources. “Privileged” editors are editors who were chosen by the community to bring out their best of their ability to uphold the policies and guidelines that were made and written by the community themselves. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 17:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC) "I don’t care about arguing about the reliability of sources" - @Cowboygilbert And there it is, openly admitted. What a shame, Wikipedia deserves better. Rob Roilen (talk) 17:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC) @Rob Roilen, It’s because I trust editors who have spent time and time again trying to find the reliability of sources and the effort that they have taken to try to find it. I trust editors like I trust others in my life. If you want to continue to argue with me, I will simply just ignore you. I don’t care about arguing, I care about talking, if I have an editor coming to me to talk about the reliability than I would give them the policies and information that other editors in the community have written and produced to be able to teach the future of editors. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 17:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC) If the left tries to use jokes made by a comedian as sort of political weapon totally ignoring its context and the largely racially mixed crowd they have been made infront Harris and her cronies in the media must be in deep trouble. 80.131.53.87(talk) 18:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC) The context is the subject of the article was at a political rally and was making racist, misogynistic comments. There is no way for his comments to be taken out of context. Trulyy (talk) 18:09, 28 October 2024 (UTC) And you have not, so far, provided any proof that the comments were indeed "racist" or "misogynistic". If you don't like them personally, that's fine and your right. But there is a distinct difference between "jokes dealing with race and women" and "actual racism and misogyny". Rob Roilen(talk) 18:14, 28 October 2024 (UTC) What proof do I need to provide? My edits and others have provided proof of such. It literally fits the definition. Making fun of a certain race in a derogatory manner is textbook racism.  Trulyy (talk) 18:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC) What do you think? Cowboygilbert clearly agrees with wikipedia's reliable sources and does not feel like arguing with someone who will not change their opinion... Trulyy (talk) 18:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC) I'm sorry, but your opinion on what is a reliable source does not trump wikipedia standards when editing wikipedia. If you have a problem with a source you deem unreliable you can bring it up with an administrator, but just because you feel a source is unreliable does not change wikipedia decision. Trulyy (talk) 18:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)That's not true. Administrators have no special authority other what is or isn't a reliable source. You should look to relevant policies and guidelines to judge if a source is reliable, and use dispute resolution if there is disagreement. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:18, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I am unclear as to which part of the long response isn't true. My best assumption is that you are referring to Rob Roilen's disregard for reliable sources as outlined in the relavent policies and guidelines. As was a major aspect of the conversation, myself and other users explained multiple times. that removing other's content on the basis of sources should only be done if the source is not designated reliable by wikipedia

or if it has been resolved through another remedy.

To clear things up in brief, Rob Roilen thought that he had

personal liberty to remove standing content based on his personal opinion of sources rather than longstanding

wikipedia descions.

I told him he is free to edit without using sources he doesn't like, so long as he is using other credible sources.

As was demonstrated in his comments against established and credible sources, For example:

"mainstream sources Wikipedia deems as "reliable" regularly publish sensational, outright false information portrayed as fact, these sources are no longer reliable by definition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tal

k: Tony_Hinchcliffe#c-Rob_Roilen- 20241028171900-Cowboygilbert-

20241028171400

"You and other editors have continuously referred to outlets like The New York Times and Axios, for example, as "reliable sources""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tony_Hinchcliffe#c-Rob_Roilen-20241028182600-Trulyy-20241028181200

Rather than resolve it in accordance with wikipedia's policies, he has decided to remove content with sources he doesn't like, and, when being told explicitly that is not how to judge sources, instead of acknowledging that fact, continuing to come after other editors. Trulyy (talk) 17:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

To clarify regarding bad faith edits as I am rereading the thread, I did not accuse you of making bad faith edits, I accused you of targeting other users accusing them of bad faith edits, which, please see your below quote:

"You should be ashamed of yourselves for actively contributing to the degradation of open information sharing. This is not unbiased, neutral, accurate, factual writing. And to make it so much worse, you are literally preventing anyone who isn't in the Special Club from editing what boils down to opinions portrayed as fact."

The above example is textbook assuming bad faith, and such behavior discourages well-intentioned users from editing the wiki and contributing to the platform. I did not accuse you of anything I have not proven with wikipedia's definitions. Trulyy (talk) 16:07, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Needless to say, for a new, well-intentioned editor trying to contribute to freedom of information to be attacked by an editor both insulting, belittling, shaming, and harrasing them for editing an article in a factual, unbiased manner that they didn't like will deter other editors and scare away current ones. Trulyy (talk) 17:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Both Trulyy's and Rob Roilen's posts on that page are unhelpful. Trulyy blundered in modifying a closed discussion, but at least it was their only edit and they undid it as soon as it was brought up here. Rob, meanwhile, is a single-purpose account needlessly ratcheting up the WP:BATTLEGROUND vibe of that page (and continuing to add more heat than light by skipping anything like conversation and escalating to this noticeboard). FWIW. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:22, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I made every effort to civilly explain my and others intentions, but at no point were any of my points taken into consideration. I feel Rob is not interested in the benefit of the platform, rather trying to punish those whose edits he disagrees with. He had many better, quicker, and more efficient ways to resolve this, but instead chose to try and come after me more than he already has. Trulyy (talk) 18:34, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

As credit to my assumption, his topic was not constructive whatsoever, especially not to the standard of others, and he devoted only one sentence to the actual issue he reported, thus showing he was picking something against the guidelines, which was an honest mistake, and using it as an opportunity to make the above post and try to come after me. He made no indication he wanted a resolution, an understanding, or anything. I have edited on Wikipedia for a year and have devoted dozens of hours to the platform. This is my only dispute that I have gotten into that has lasted more than three messages and wasn't resolved in a satisfactory manner. Trulyy (talk) 18:38, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Protip: this matter is visible to many eyeballs now. Best to let others handle it now, if there's any handling to be done. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:54, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I am not a "single-purpose account" and I certainly attempted to converse with other editors before bringing this to the noticeboard.

I am genuinely troubled by the effort other editors are willing to put into discrediting my input. I'm not sure how to more clearly state my mission here; I am fully, 100%, without a doubt committed to maintaining Wikipedia's integrity and accuracy. That is explicitly why I have continuously cautioned other editors from A) injecting their own personal opinions into articles, B) allowing their own personal opinions to interfere with their objective assessment of a source's reliability, and C) simply claiming a source is reliable because "it's on the list of reliable sources" or "I've always trusted ____". In the context of writing an encyclopedia, these are completely inappropriate. Rob Roilen (talk) 21:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

You have not continuously cautioned other editors, as more than 50% of your edits are on that talk page alone.

As myself and other editors have told you many times, when it comes to editing wikipedia, claiming a source is reliable because it's on Wikipedia's list of reliable sources is the polar opposite of 'completely innapropriate'. Trulyy (talk) 22:41, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

While there are many sources that Wikipedia may generally consider reliable, "reliable" should not mean "beyond scrutiny." "Reliability" should still be determined with care. Relying on a source just because it’s generally considered reputable can unintentionally skew neutrality, especially when sources on contentious topics may display implicit biases. Encouraging balanced assessments of sources is consistent with Wikipedia’s standards of neutrality and due weight. Rob Roilen (talk) 22:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from. In the context of that article, what are some sources you would consider reliable? Trulyy (talk) 22:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

User: Rob Roilen

On the "2024 Trump rally at Madison Square Garden" article, Rob Roilen has been relentlessly making changes to the article (including removing sources for reasons that from my understanding are not Wikipedia's rules for what makes a source valid). He also pushing for the article's removal due to bias. Broadly, his argument is that including reactions to the event that made comparisons to Hitler and Nazism is "sensationalizing", "biased", or invalid due to the outlet or sources having consistent past articles criticizing Trump (implying that a source that has consistent rhetoric is not valid). There are three main things in his arguments that make me believe this person is acting in bad faith.

1. Instead of using the rules of the site as a justification for edits and accusations of bias, Rob Roilen is using his own standards for what constitutes neutrality. After it was explained to him that a completely neutral tone is not possible when the content of the article is not neutral (aka, False Balance), he ignored this and continued to state that the article is not "neutral". I explained to him that the neutral tone he wants is not possible, in the same way that an unbiased tone isn't possible for an article covering a topic like slavery. The other side can not be portrayed as equal in validity.

2. As well, he consistently justifies his reasoning as being because "the page should be written as an encyclopedia", and his specific use of "an encyclopedia" is (in my opinion) a deliberate way of separating the discussion from Wikipedia's rules, and pushing for what he thinks is valid based on what he expects from an encyclopedia (these are his words). The only time he has said "Wikipedia" is when he is criticizing the rules and standards of the website itself.

3. The edits he is making (including removing the introduction section summarizing the issues and rhetoric Trump used, as well as the overall reaction) are fundamentally changing the purpose of the article and what warranted its creation, and I believe this is motivated by a desire to see the page removed. Articles on specific campaign events are not created unless it was notable, had a strong and widespread reaction, or directly caused a significant event, otherwise there is no real reason to create an article on a specific rally. By removing criticisms towards the event and continuously pushing a False Balance, Rob Roilen is misleading readers and trying to make the article less factual for the sake of being unbiased. 64.228.236.176 (talk) 02:33, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I second this. We've been having frequent clashes at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2024 Trump rally at Madison Square Garden. Great Mercian (talk) 02:53, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

64.228.236.176, as it says on many places on this page, you have to inform an editor when you start a discussion on them on a noticeboard or mention them in a serious way. They should be encouraged to participate here. Please do this now. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for informing me. I have invited him to join the discussion here. 64.228.236.176 (talk) 03:25, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, 64.228.236.176. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:41, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I've stated my case in multiple threads now, including another ANI, so this is starting to feel like harassment from a handful of editors who would like to see my editing privileges limited, but just to have it here:

My standards for neutrality are Wikipedia's standards for neutrality. From Wikipedia:Neutral point of view:

"NPOV...means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." (emphasis added)

It also says:

"This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus." (emphasis added)

I see on my talk page I've been accused by this IP user of being "manipulative" for posting these policy excerpts.

While there are many sources that Wikipedia may generally consider reliable, "reliable" should not mean "beyond scrutiny." "Reliability" should still be determined with care. Relying on a source just because it’s generally considered reputable can unintentionally skew neutrality, especially when sources on contentious topics may display implicit biases. Encouraging balanced assessments of sources is consistent with Wikipedia’s standards of neutrality and due weight.

I believe very strongly that Wikipedia's foundational principle of neutrality should take precedence over merely reflecting sources' biases. This principle isn’t about echoing a source’s viewpoint but rather about integrating diverse perspectives in a way that represents the topic fairly, accurately, and without leaning towards a single viewpoint.By reflecting all sources—both their strengths and inherent biases—with balanced skepticism, Wikipedia avoids taking implicit stances and maintains a neutral, trustworthy stance across contentious subjects. Rob Roilen (talk) 04:01, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps this is also a good place to mention that the above user @Great Mercian recently said to me "The more I look into it, I'm more convinced you're either not real or just a troll" and even "I'm half convinced you're a Republican sleeper agent." Rob Roilen (talk) 04:20, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I've yet to see you rebuke such claims @Rob Roilen: Great Mercian (talk) 12:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Those are personal attacks and contrary to wikipedia policy. I would not stand by them so flagrantly. Just10A (talk) 13:41, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't necessarily think Rob Roilen is a Trump supporter or even Republican, though he could be (he has stated he is not Republican and I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt). I think the more likely reason is that the user is a fan of Tony Hitchcliffe's comedy and doesn't like that his page is connected to an event widely viewed negatively. That may be presumptive but based on how this began with the Tony article, I think it's likely that this is a motivator. Note: this is just an observation, I do not think this motivation is disqualifying, had Rob Roilen acted appropriatley his edits may have been acceptable. The user's own words and actions are the main thing that I think are worth scrutinizing, not his political views, which I am not comfortable assuming. 64.228.236.176 (talk) 14:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Regarding personal attacks, refer to the lightest example, but most convinient for me, of what Rob said prior to a single interaction with any editors:

"What's happening right now is an insult to encyclopedic writing. The page cannot be edited except by editors with special privileges, and the only edits being made are meant to portray Tony negatively? What a joke. All credibility lost.

You should be ashamed of yourselves for actively contributing to the degradation of open information sharing. This is not unbiased, neutral, accurate, factual writing. And to make it so much worse, you are literally preventing anyone who isn't in the Special Club from editing what boils down to opinions portrayed as fact.

What leverage do the unprivileged editors have here? Who are you held accountable to? Yourselves? You don't see how this is dangerous? You don't think this makes it fair game for others to do the same to you?"

Source Trulyy (talk) 16:50, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that his behavior is incendiary and unacceptable. But there isn't a "but they did something wrong too!" exception to WP:PA, much less doubling down on them on the noticeboard. It's contrary to policy regardless. Just10A (talk) 17:06, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Rob Roilen as you seem to have used original research to challenge the acceptability of reliable sources, and have cited WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS as an acceptable source, I suggest your arguments are better suited for noticeboards rather than within an article that you adamantly seek to delete. soibangla (talk) 04:28, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Might I recommend that any administrators observing this case refer to the extensive talk page of @Soibangla Rob Roilen (talk) 04:32, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Rob Roilen I wholly recommend everyone deeply scrutinize my Talk page soibangla (talk) 04:46, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I assume Rob Roilen is pointing to your temporary ban from editing one particular article focused on Trump's assassination attempt. I do not see how this is relevant here, since this is not a discussion on soibangla or this different article. 64.228.236.176 (talk) 04:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I assume that will be done. Rob has been rebuked by dozens of editors within the last two days, has made personal attacks, been shown wikipedia policy and ignored it because he doesn't like it. Escalated issues needlessly instead of trying to get them resolved, and violated many of wikipedia's policies. Trulyy (talk) 16:56, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I find it extraordinarily strange that I'm the one being accused of "ignoring Wikipedia policy" when there are multiple examples of me directly referencing and quoting said policy in an attempt to get other editors to actually follow it. You do understand that it's possible to be wrong about something even when you're in a room full of people who agree with you, right? Rob Roilen (talk) 19:17, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

The manipulativeness was what you left out and what you emphasized. First, you emphasized "editorial bias" while completely ignoring "as far as possible", which is clearly an important point of nuance. You have not been able to prove that the article and sources used are properly sourced bias, which as I explained, is acceptable. What you have engaged in is editorial bias, by definition. Your interpretation is also manipulative:

"This principle isn’t about echoing a source’s viewpoint but rather about integrating diverse perspectives in a way that represents the topic fairly, accurately, and without leaning towards a single viewpoint." This is factually untrue. I have shown you repeated proof that this is not realistic in all scenarious, and the site's rules reflect this. For example, an article on evolution cannot be accurate if it doesn't lean towards the viewpoint that evolution is true. By this extreme logic, you would have to present the Creationist perspective equally. 64.228.236.176 (talk) 04:40, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Correction: You have not been able to prove that the article and sources used are not properly sourced bias 64.228.236.176 (talk) 04:42, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I second this for the article Tony Hinchcliffe. He showed blatant disregard for wikipedia's guidelines, attacked other editors, and then reported me to the notice board, although everyone else in that thread and the talk page thread all sided with me. He has been downright nasty to myself and others. Trulyy (talk) 16:46, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Please refer to another editors opinion on a thread regarding my mistake that Rob escalated:

well now the problematic matter appears to be that Rob Roilen has cast aspersions on others who have disagreed with their adamance in deleting the articlc, including suggesting that an editor's Talk page be examined by administrators for some sort of suspected malfeasance soibangla (talk) 06:09, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Trulyy (talk) 16:53, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Wait a sec. An IP who's just joined the 'pedia about two days ago, participating only at the aforementioned page. Now making an ANI report??? GoodDay (talk) 05:04, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

is there something intrinsically improper about that? soibangla (talk) 05:14, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes there is. Who's the IP, that appeared suddenly? GoodDay (talk) 05:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

GoodDay, I'm not sure why this surprises you, IP accounts file complaints at ANI all of the time. Most IP accounts have addresses that are dynamic and change regularly so this editor probably edited with other addresses in the past. I do not think they are an editor who is contributing logged out if that is what concerns you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I sincerely hope you're correct. GoodDay (talk) 05:40, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

IP editors are perfectly entitled to contribute as 64.228.236.176 has at length on the article Talk. allegations have been suggested by two editors that 64.228.236.176 was recently banned but no concrete evidence has been presented. incidentally, aspersions have also been cast upon me, which might be considered sanctionable. soibangla (talk) 05:46, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you maybe argue with the points being raised before going with an ad hom? Like most regular users of Wikipedia, I have simply not made edits or engaged in discussions, until this particular article's vote for deletion caught my attention. I disagree with this deletion, so here we are.

Rob Roilen has also only started being active the last couple days, roughly 99% of his edits are on this article and the one on Tony Hitchcliffe (apologies if the name is botched). This is not one of the reasons I am criticizing him, his longevity is not an important factor to me. I am criticizing his arguments, edits, and overall conduct in this situation. 64.228.236.176 (talk) 05:20, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

And if this is not already clear, unlike Rob Roilen, I have not made any edits or deleted sources. I am strictly keeping this in discussion only. 64.228.236.176 (talk) 05:24, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm concerned about who you are. But, I'll let others decide if there's a reason to be curious. GoodDay (talk) 05:26, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Why is my identity important? 64.228.236.176 (talk) 05:41, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

If my identity is cause for concern, who are you implyng I am? 64.228.236.176 (talk) 05:43, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Stop feigning injury and asking questions you already know the answers to. Remsense ‥ 论 05:46, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand the hostility, Remsense. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I didn't understand the question, which put my hackles up: of course it's important for our purposes who the identity of editors are in the terms we have been discussing. Remsense ‥ 论 05:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I was asking a question, how is that feigning injury? You appear to be implying I am a specific person, I am asking for validation on this. 64.228.236.176 (talk) 06:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

but you aren't letting others decide if they're curious. you have decided you are. soibangla (talk) 05:54, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

64.228.236.176, if you want a better response to your complaint, it is best to include "diffs" or links to specific edits that you find problematic and that concern you. Typically a report comes with 3-7 diffs so that editors reviewing it can see if there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Right now, this complaint is just editors bickering with each other. To take any action, you have to include evidence of misconduct that goes beyond a narrative complaint. I tell this to many editors new to filing complaints at ANI so this is not me taking a side, just informing you what is generally needed for any action to happen. There are situations where an admin will investigate a situation themselves but it helps the filer to point out what behavior they see as problematic. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

well now the problematic matter appears to be that Rob Roilen has cast aspersions on others who have disagreed with their adamance in deleting the articlc, including suggesting that an editor's Talk page be examined by administrators for some sort of suspected malfeasance soibangla (talk) 06:09, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the input. I may need some time to put all the citations together (and I am not super familiar with formatting so this will require more research) but that seems doable. I didn't think this discussion would take up this much of my time but I am invested at this point. 64.228.236.176 (talk) 07:05, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

My comment remains the same. Without diffs/evidence, I doubt any action will be taken because it looks like a disagreement over content or just two editors who don't get along. You don't need a lot of diffs, like I said, a half dozen examples can be persuasive (or not, it depends on what you choose to highlight). I recommend that this doesn't devolve into bickering between editors or someone will just close this discussion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I've made this a subthread of the earlier one. While the earlier thread was started by Rob Roilen, as often happens with these sort of threads, Rob Roilen's own behaviour was also being discussed and it concerned the same set or articles and issues. Splitting the discussion is unlikely to be helpful. Nil Einne (talk) 09:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

On the general issue, I have to say from what I've seen that Rob Roilen is still fairly unfamiliar with and having trouble accepting our sourcing requirements and other fundamentals of editing here. While we were all new once, I'm not convinced these articles especially so close to the US election is a good place for them to be learning. They've already been given a recent American politics CTOP alert so IMO barring considerable improvement it's worth an admin considering if it might be productive to force them to learn the basics somewhere else or at least sometime after the election if they want to stay in recent American politics articles. Nil Einne (talk) 09:53, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

There is something of an issue with this over here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#CNN. Slatersteven (talk) 17:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Is asking questions against Wikipedia policy? Rob Roilen (talk) 17:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

No, but continuing to ask it after it has been answered might be seen as wp:disruptive. Slatersteven (talk) 17:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Irony Rob Roilen (talk) 17:53, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Rob's primary objective at the Tony Hinchcliffe article seems to be removing the "racist" label on a "they're just jokes" basis. That he is arguing to exclude "mainstream media" underscores misunderstanding how Wikipedia works. Various examples of needless fighting and policy issues, all from Talk:Tony Hinchcliffe:

Oh I see, so we're just going to do that thing where we get stuck in a loop where you claim that mainstream media articles are "reliable"

Why is your sense of urgency suddenly gone? Someone was so eager to call Tony "racist" and lock down the editing of the page for a month, but when people push back we're just going to run out the clock?

It could even be argued that these statements about Tony are libelous.

Ah yes, step in to seriously limit who can freely edit information but then refuse to participate in the ongoing discussion. How diplomatic

None of it is helpful. Lest we think Rob is the only one, or that he's escalating in a vacuum, there are several users making wildly unhelpful comments on that talk page, so I sort of get Rob's strong response in places. The problem is none of his comments seem to move discussion forward, and it's an account focused on this topic. FWIW. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 12:21, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd appreciate if editors would stop implying that I'm only here to edit a single topic, since this appears to be an effort to discredit my input. Is my input only valid if I've edited a certain number of pages? What's the threshold?

To contextualize the quotes above, it should be noted that they are from when the Tony Hinchcliffe article was being aggressively edited to portray Tony in an objectively negative light directly after the Madison Square Garden rally. Saying that my comments did not move the discussion forward fails to take into account that the article is currently much more tonally neutral than it was before I happened to show up.

I also find it deeply troubling that other editors who have expressed personal disagreements with my tone are literally calling for me to be "forced" to follow the rules in a way they subjectively approve of. Please tell me I'm not the only person here who sees the very real issue with that. Rob Roilen (talk) 12:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

The context for "single-purpose account" is WP:SPA FYI. fails to take into account that the article is currently much more tonally neutral - even if we say you were right on the content issues, being right doesn't discount the negative effect of a flurry of unnecessarily escalating comments with no basis in wikipolicy. I don't have anything else to add, though. If you don't want to be seen as an "SPA", find some good sources to summarize to improve a totally unrelated article. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Rob Roilen: To give an example of why your approach is harmful, consider this edit [8]. The edit itself was productive, AFAICT, neither source used in our article describes what Cardone said as misogynistic. Your edit summary was so unhelpful however that it would have been better to not use an edit summary. AFAICT, no one has argued the comment is inherently misogynistic on the talk page. But even if they had, it would be irrelevant. What matters is whether sources widely call what Cardone said as misogynistic not whether it's "inherently misogynistic" (whatever on earth that means) nor whether an editor feels it is or isn't misogynistic. I actually nearly reverted you because I thought it was more WP:OR from you but decided to check the sources just to make sure and found that you were in fact correctly reverting some other editor's OR but with an edit summary that made it seemed like you were the one doing the OR. It's easily possible barring the edit history being further annotated that some other editor might come to the same conclusion as me but not check the sources and so revert you. Working in a collaborative environment means it's incredibly unhelpful to make editors think your edit was improper by using an edit summary which suggest that. But further, it's extremely unclear that you even understand why your edit was productive. If you don't this means you could have easily made the mistake of removing something which was in fact widely supported by secondary sources based on your own interpretation/OR; or in other words the fact you happened to be right in that edit is a happy accident as much as anything. Nil Einne (talk) 20:26, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

At this point I have no idea how to more clearly explain that a handful of blatantly biased sources does not qualify as "widely reported", and how even if something is "widely reported", if it completely flies in the face of the basic definition of words, it is not accurate enough to use as source material in an encyclopedia. Rob Roilen (talk) 20:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

AFAICT, no one has every said 'a handful of blatantly biased sources' qualifies 'as "widely reported"'. But as for your second part well that's the problem. If you're not willing to accept the basics of how Wikipedia works then you shouldn't be editing here at all and you definitely shouldn't be editing a hot button CTOP article. Since multiple editors have tried to explain to you how Wikipedia works and you're still either not understanding it or not willing to accept it, it's getting to the point where there's no point trying further. Nil Einne (talk) 21:06, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

So to clarify, you believe it is perfectly acceptable for Wikipedia to use blatantly impartial journalism as sources while simultaneously holding neutrality as a foundational principle? Rob Roilen (talk) 21:09, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

blatantly impartial journalism Why yes. That is neutral journalism by definition. EducatedRedneck (talk) 22:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I assume you mean "partial", but either way it matters little.

Per BIASED (which is a guideline), "Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. [...] Although a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control, a reputation for fact-checking, and the level of independence from the topic the source is covering."

If you have a problem with sources considered reliable, rather than contentiously push changes based on your personal assessment that X or Y source is too "biased" to be usable, you should take it up at the RSN. Over there is where said assessment concerning the sources' bias will matter. You may even find that other editors agree with you; many sources, after all, have had their agreed-upon reliability debated, or even changed, during Wikipedia's history. During content discussion, however, your subjective opinion does not trump community consensus around the usability of sources.

There are processes for reassessing sources, or otherwise building consensus around questions like these. Use them. LaughingManiac (talk) 22:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I did mean to say "blatantly partial journalism", thank you for the catch.

But again, I don't know why I need to clarify this, and this is not my personal opinion, but editors of an encyclopedia should be informed and intelligent enough to be able to determine themselves whether or not the sources available to them are appropriate for the given topic, especially when contentious, and regardless of whether or not Wikipedia has their name in green or red on the perennial sources list. A formal debate over the reliability of a source does not need to be opened every time an editor points out inappropriate bias in commentary from a source typically viewed as reliable.

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources even notes that "context matters tremendously, and some sources may or may not be suitable for certain uses depending on the situation." Rob Roilen (talk) 22:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

"editors of an encyclopedia should be informed and intelligent enough to be able to determine themselves whether or not the sources available to them are appropriate for the given topic"

Editors are free to hold whatever subjective opinion they have on the appropriateness of sources. But the active use, or avoidance, of said sources is decided using consensus as opposed to that opinion.

"A formal debate over the reliability of a source does not need to be opened every time an editor points out inappropriate bias in commentary from a source typically viewed as reliable."

Perhaps not, but you specifically stated that these sources were "blatantly partial", with the basic contention that this makes them unusable for this topic. That's your opinion. It's a fine opinion to have, and one that you could well defend at RSN. It's also not something which trumps community consensus on the subject.

This will be my last message here, as I am uninterested in a debate, being uninvolved in the content dispute itself. I am merely reminding you of the policies in place at this encyclopedia. Of course, you are free to ignore this reminder, and keep BLUDGEONING that your personal opinion on what constitutes reliable sources trumps community consensus. LaughingManiac (talk) 23:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I won't lie, I'm edging towards some action being taken against Roilen, per everything above. Great Mercian (talk) 02:29, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, you are entitled to your own opinion. But I've seen you have run-ins with this editor so to be persuasive, you'd have to present a diff or two of conduct that violates Wikipedia's policies and guidelines which I haven't seen yet. I see some worrisome commentary on their judging the reliability of sources but without evidence of improper actions, it's just talk. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Liz: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#CNN seems to be getting into WP:DISRUPTSIGNS and there doesn't have to be individual diffs of policy violations for there to be policy violations in totality, thats just a false standard. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

So engaging in discussion on a noticeboard qualifies as "editing"? And engaging in discussion about the reliability of sources on a noticeboard specifically devoted to discussing the reliability of sources is "partisan, biased, skewed, and [not maintaining] an editorially neutral point of view"? Rob Roilen (talk) 21:47, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes I find the way you went about opening and prosecuting that discussion on CNN "partisan, biased, skewed, and [not maintaining] an editorially neutral point of view" and yes that would generally qualify as editing. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:52, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I notice that you haven't participated in the discussion, which isn't over yet. Perhaps you would like to join?

Hopefully I'm not the only one here who sees the distinction between "editing" and "discussing on talk pages and noticeboards" as it applies to Wikipedia conduct policy. Rob Roilen (talk) 22:03, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

There seems to be a clear consensus, not sure what I would add. If you want to argue that not being disruptive in main is a get-out-of-jail-free card for being disruptive in talk and wikispace I don't think thats going to work (even if there is actually no disruption in main, which I kind of doubt given the general quality of the contributions I've seen so far) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:06, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, discredit my contributions to the encyclopedia based on how you personally perceive my tone on discussion pages, even though you have not participated in the discussions. How illuminating.

Wikipedia:Assume good faith Rob Roilen (talk) 22:13, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

In general I find your tone civil, thats not a major issue I have with your editing. You don't need to jump in a dumpster fire to identify it as a dumpster fire, point to the man who set it, and say "That man appears to be setting dumpster fires" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I would also note that only 14% of your edits are in mainspace[9], so its not like an issue is being made out of namespaces in which your hardly edit... It would appear that an issue is being made about your core editing areas. Is there a previous account which I should also be referencing which I'm missing? In mainspace this account has simply not made significant contributions to the encyclopedia. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:46, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rob Roilen: If it's not too much trouble, can you name a source that does meet your standards? Great Mercian (talk) 01:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS?[10] soibangla (talk) 01:55, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm wrong since I'm rarely there but my impression is a reasonable percentage of WP:A/R/E threads primarily or completely deal with talk page activity. Definitely CTOP does not require article editors for sanction, and a very common action is a topic ban or some sort which would of course forbid editing anywhere on Wikipedia covered by that topic. BTW I'm not sure if my point above was understood properly by Rob Roilen. My point is that you're still having trouble understanding and accepting core Wikipedia policies. Perhaps there is still hope for you to learn, but it's quite likely if there is hope, this would be by you staying away from areas i.e. recent American politics, where a lot of people apparently including you have trouble separating their strong personal feelings or whatever from their editing; and therefore are much more likely to make mistakes. There is a reason it's CTOP area after all. And since it is, it's far easier for an admin to decide that your editing is indeed enough of a problem that you need to stay away from it. There would still be millions of articles and their talk pages where you could learn the basics of editing here, but hopefully with greater detachment and less concern on your part about correcting a great wrong and therefore IMO much more chance you will learn. Nil Einne (talk) 02:09, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Noting here that I've blocked them for 24 hours as an AE action for WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior in the WP:CT/AP topic area. Elli (talk | contribs) 03:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• I just noticed that Rob Roilen has been blocked again, this time for a week. That makes 2 blocks in a week. It's hard to resolve a dispute when one of the participants can't take part. It's like it puts a hold on active discussions. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:00, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• May be late to the show but just a note - Hinchcliffe's antics were getting criticism in sources as distant from the United States, and as conservative, as the Globe and Mail [11] - which it would be hard to characterize as a source generally hostile to conservativism. Now my opinion is that we should be limiting Wikipedia to encyclopedic material rather than current affairs. But, alas, the general public of Wikipedia still disagrees. As such, within the context of the "newsmedia OK for notability" milieu we have, I don't see how this topic is unfairly noting that this comedian bombed at a far-right political rally. Simonm223 (talk) 14:25, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, Simonm223, while the comedian might, rightly or wrongly, be labeled "far-right", some editors would have grounds to challenge your identification of a Trump campaign rally as "a far-right political rally". Of course, this is a noticeboard, not an article, so you don't have to support your opinion with a source! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Elijah Pepe's article creation

I have never reported a user to ANI before to so bear with me if I do anything silly or this is the wrong venue.

User:ElijahPepe is a proflific article creator who's quick creation of current event articles have been problematic. His userpage is littered with deletion notices and editors making similar arguments over their creation of articles. Just in the last few months, 2024 Houston helicopter crash was deleted through a PROD, 2024 Israel–Hezbollah war was speedy deleted (with an additional comment from User:sawyer777 about Elijah's creation of current event articles after this was deleted), 2024 Zamfara State boat accident (a two line article) was moved to draftspace, 2024 stock market decline was deleted at AFD (see these comments from User: Liz and User:Soni on Elijah's creation of current event articles after this was deleted [12] and [13]) and Response to the 2024 Venezuelan presidential election (a one line article) was moved to draftspace.

Elijah certainly has created articles that are notable, and I would be wrong to not mention that, but too many times they have been warned about their article creation, or their articles have been deleted, with no change in behavior. I think some sort of sanction might be useful in this case to prevent this from continuing to occur. Esolo5002 (talk) 20:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I recall a recent noticeboard thread on this same topic with this same user: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1154#User_needs_autopatrolled_revoked, which was closed with their autopatrol being revoked on account of doing this too much. jp×g🗯️ 01:53, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I've also noticed this as well. It almost feels like he's creating them just to claim "First!" Here he made an article about retaliatory strikes against Iran that didn't even happen until nine days later. Procyon117 (talk) 13:41, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

If Elijah was actually doing due diligence on articles (Confirm there isn't another article, check notability, actually add sufficient sourcing and content), we wouldn't be here. He does not, and nearly all of his articles are one sentence each, way less than anyone would expect. When repeated consistently, this shows a problem.

Note that I have past strong opinions on Elijah and saw this primarily thanks to the ping. I respect his mainspace contributions (as someone who has not contributed much there myself recently), but they are not supposed to be a substitute for due diligence. Soni (talk) 04:13, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

the issue is also his lack of communication; he rarely uses edit summaries even for huge sweeping changes, and doesn't meaningfully respond to feedback from other editors. see also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1148#User:ElijahPepe continually makes persistent disruptive edits to New York Times against consensus & Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1154#ElijahPepe New York Times issues, and this interaction on his talk page User talk:ElijahPepe#Tesla Network. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 09:09, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• I have nominated Sean Combs sexual misconduct allegations for deletion. It was also created by this user. Ratnahastin (talk) 10:48, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd like to hear what ElijahPepe has to say about this. Levivich (talk) 17:11, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

To explain: I have never claimed that there is anything special about creating articles. I create them because I find them necessary, either as notable entries or for another reason. Since the article about the helicopter crash in Houston, I have tried to reduce articles on one-off events; this morning, a roof collapse in Serbia killed eight people, likely more since I checked, yet I don't intend on creating an article for it. The articles Esolo cites are not good examples of the claim he is trying to make. I agree with the deletion of 2024 Houston helicopter crash, 2024 Israel–Hezbollah war was a specific case in which consensus changed and that article no longer needed to exist, Response to the 2024 Venezuelan presidential election was a duplicate that was technically created before the current article, 2024 Venezuelan political crisis. 2024 stock market decline was a mistake that will never occur again, though I believe that the consensus was a misunderstanding of what I intended to cover. 2024 Zamfara State boat accident was an aforementioned one-off event. As for Sean Combs sexual misconduct allegations, I created the redirect, but the final article was not mine; editors determined a split was necessary and performed one. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 20:37, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

these are some of the current or future event articles Elijah has created (and did not start as redirects) just from the last month and a half or so:

• 2024 Tel Aviv truck attack
• 2024 McDonald's E. coli outbreak
• Tesla Network (future)
• Tesla Cybercab (future)
• Assassination of Hashem Safieddine
• Proposed acquisition of Dish Network by DirecTV (future)
• September 2024 Birmingham shooting
• 2025–2026 U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq (perhaps the most ridiculous example of a future event article)

nearly all of them were created as single-sentence, single-source stubs with no indication of notability. there are more to be found at https://xtools.wmcloud.org/pages/en.wikipedia.org/ElijahPepe/all#0
i and others have suggested Elijah simply make these current/future events articles in draftspace, as is fairly common, mostly to no avail. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 22:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

If using the draftspace, which I did at 2024 McDonald's E. coli outbreak, is all you're asking for, then I can oblige by that. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 23:03, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

It's still an article about a one-off thing of little significance, made up of WP:PROSELINE collecting a few news stories and other primary sources that don't carry any meaningful analysis. This whole topic should be one or two sentences in History of McDonald's, but it's been source bombed to make it look notable when it's not. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

before this gets archived without action (as threads about Elijah tend to do), i'll say i agree with this. the issue is the creation of these articles which have no indication of notability. starting non-notable articles in draftspace and then moving them to mainspace is no better. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 13:20, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

i've been mulling this over a bit, and while i'm not going to propose any sanctions or anything (i don't really know what would be appropriate & productive here), i'd like to expand on my issue with his article creation habits. the last time this particular issue was brought to ANI (by @Trainsandotherthings in april), as jpxg mentions above, the complaints from other editors were as follows:

• creating one-sentence stubs: they're now usually two or three sentences by the time Elijah stops working on them. from the examples i listed above, see 22 Sep, 1 Oct (slightly longer but still only one source), 4 Oct, 11 Oct, 11 Oct, 22 Oct, 27 Oct
• He also cannot be bothered to add any categories to his article creations: see above revisions; they do not have categories
• they're still not using edit summaries for content edits: since april, his edit summary usage has hovered between 25.3% and 38.1% (link); nearly 70% of his edits are in mainspace (link)

in that ANI, Elijah said Ecrusized did not provide a policy against creating one-sentence articles and did not follow up after my comment; his clarification was that it was acceptable given the article was being worked on before being linked to a high-traffic page. Obviously, I'm aware now that is not acceptable. make of that what you will in light of his more recent article creation habits.
as mentioned above, other editors have been raising issues with this for months. Liz & Soni commented in august/september, and Elijah replied And I have used the draftspace where appropriate since this comment. i'm not really sure what to make of his above comment If using the draftspace [...] is all you're asking for, then I can oblige by that in light of that.
i'm focusing on his underdeveloped article creations (of which there are so many that i won't name them all here), but there have been other issues as well. above i linked to two previous ANI threads about the NYT debacle from march-april, and i will also link to User talk:ElijahPepe#April 2024 which includes many similar concerns about poor collaboration. the other thread which i linked above is also pretty revealing in my view; Elijah says As far as I know, "Tesla Network" is a placeholder name. I'm not against merging the article because the topic has no coverage, but I created it in order to maintain an article about the Robovan. - that is fundamentally not why or how articles should be created on wikipedia. i pressed him about this, but he did not respond to the substance of my concern and instead just corrected me on a mistake i made in my comment. i also asked him to use draftspace then, which further makes his comment in this thread confusing. again, i don't know what kind of solution this situation needs, but this is frustrating ... sawyer * he/they * talk 00:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Since I've been pinged, I'll offer a solution: a ban on creating articles in mainspace and a requirement to use AfC for all new articles. Take it or leave it, many people have agreed there is a problem but nobody else has proposed a remedy thus far. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 01:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I would support something like this. Procyon117 (talk) 04:20, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I usually don't take positions on proposals at ANI but I think this is reasonable as it doesn't look like it's a problem that is going to go away. What do you think of a 6 month ban on mainspace article creation? I think a formal Proposal has to be made in a new section of this discussion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

We're beating around this bush too much, and there needs to be a clearer path forward. So I'm creating TBAN as a formal proposal. I just don't think elijah should be given a dedicated babysitter (again) so this feels like the only logical step to me. If the TBAN fails, it fails.

Full disclosure, I have followed off-wiki discussion on this, but I was independently following this thread anyway thanks to the ping. Soni (talk) 18:20, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I was not made aware that categories were required. If I am not barred from creating articles, I would implore you to examine my edits for six months in which I will meet all those criteria and create them in the draftspace. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 14:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposed TBAN from creating new articles

Proposal : ElijahPepe is TBANned from creating new articles in the mainspace for 6 months. He needs to go through WP:AFC for any created articles.

• Support as proposer. Soni (talk) 18:20, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Support TBAN, regretfully. EF⁵ 18:22, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Support TBAN. Procyon117 (talk) 18:36, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

support per my above statements ... sawyer * he/they * talk 19:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBAN. Clear this has gone on for too long without action. Esolo5002 (talk) 20:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support per my earlier comments. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 22:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

AndriesvN

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Since creating their account in 2021, AndriesvN (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has spent the last 3 years rewriting Christian theology articles into argumentative essays reflecting their own point of view, rather than scholarly consensus on the topic, often citing a self published amateur website "revelationbyjesuschrist.com". I think this makes them an unambiguous net negative for the encylopedia. When confronted about this, they have referred to reverts of their edits as sabotage and saying that the only reason that people oppose their edits is because they are disastrous for [their] theology. [14]. They've previously been taken to ANI before (Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1165#User:AndriesVN), but the result was inconclusive. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:17, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm concerned that we've gone straight banning with one diff, and some history. Secretlondon (talk) 22:10, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Andries has written The majority is always wrong; particularly so, the intellectual elite. [15]. Does that not come across as WP:NOTHERE to you? Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

At a minimum, AndriesvN needs to stop citing their own blog.[16] (It's currently a source in 15 articles.) Schazjmd (talk) 23:04, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I see I have only 24 hours to respond.

It claims above that I have been “rewriting Christian theology articles.”

In reality, I focus on the fourth-century Arian Controversy.

It says that I converted such articles “into argumentative essays.”

The modern study of the Arian Controversy began less than 200 years ago. At first, scholars relied excessively on ‘orthodox’ theologians only. But, particularly in the second half of the 20^th century, scholars realized that the traditional account of that Controversy is a complete travesty. Hanson, perhaps the foremost 20th-century scholar on the subject, wrote:

-    “This conventional account of the Controversy, which stems originally from the version given of it by the victorious party, is now recognised by a large number of scholars to be a complete travesty. To see this it is only necessary to read that weighty and magisterial recent work upon the subject, La Crisi Ariana del Qarto Secolo by M. Simonetti, a Roman Catholic scholar whose integrity is as unexceptionable as his orthodoxy.” (Hanson lecture 1988)

-    “The study of the Arian problem over the last hundred years has been like a long-distance gun trying to hit a target. The first sighting shots are very wide of the mark, but gradually the shells fall nearer and nearer. The diatribes of Gwatkin and of Harnack [published at beginning of the 20th century], can today be completely ignored.” (R.P.C. Hanson, 1987, p. 95-96)

My sources are the books published over the past 50 years by leading scholars. (Simonetti, Hanson, Williams, Ayres, Anatolios) Therefore, in the Wikipedia articles, we have both the traditional account and the current view. Mentioning both views, which I do from time to time, may seem “argumentative essays.”

It says above that I am “reflecting their own point of view, rather than scholarly consensus on the topic.”

I claim to do the very opposite. For the last 3 years I have been studying the writings of the leading scholars of the past 50 years. I believe what I present is the scholarly view. But it is important to understand that the scholarly view changed much over the last century.

-    “A vast amount of scholarship over the past thirty years (written in 2004) has offered revisionist accounts of themes and figures from the fourth century” (Ayres, p. 2).

-    “There has been a quite remarkable amount of new work on Arianism in recent years. … What had seemed clear points of reference faded away alarmingly as my studies advanced.” (Williams, p ix)

But the Wikipedia pages do not reflect the consensus position of modern scholarship. The Wikipedia pages still mostly reflect 19th-century scholarship. I am not trying to correct the scholarship but to present scholarship.

It says above that I cite “self published amateur website "revelationbyjesuschrist.com".

I have copies of limited parts of the writings of leading scholars on my website, to which I sometimes refer. But if you look at my edits, you will see that the bulk of my references are quotes from scholars. I put detailed quotes in the footnotes. But I will stop referring to my website. I don’t need it.

It says I am “an unambiguous net negative for the encylopedia.”

The Arian Controversy resulted in the Trinity doctrine which is regarded as the foundational doctrine of the church.  This, therefore, is a highly contested subject. Traditionalists do not want to hear about the new view of the Arian Controversy because it threatens the foundation of the church. But I am an independent. I do not belong to any church or organization.

When confronted about this, they have referred to reverts of their edits as sabotage and saying that the only reason that people oppose their edits is because they are disastrous for [their] theology.

This sounds as it this is a regular occurrence, but it refers to one single incident yesterday. I put in a paragraph saying that the term homoousios disappeared from the Controversy soon after Nicaea and was re-introduced only 30 years later. I gave many and detailed quotes from the leading scholars. But another editor simply deleted that paragraph. I regard that as blatant sabotage. Currently, the article on homoousios is silent on the subject.

I think it is important to understand why I am so vehemently opposed. The reason is that the fourth century controversy resulted in the Trinity doctrine, which is the most fundamental and foundational doctrine of the mainstream church. The traditional account of the Controversy had been developed to bolster that doctrine. Rewriting the history of the Arian Controversy threatens that doctrine. The authors I quote are all leading Catholic scholars. They do not need a false account of the Arian Controversy to accept the Trinity doctrine. But tertiary level traditionalists do not have enough understanding to do the same and want to retain the traditional account.

“His sources themselves (outside his personal blog, which he regularly cites and copies from verbatim despite repeated policy violation notices on the matter) have merit”

I have to quote verbatim to show that these are not my ideas.

In summary, the fourth-century Arian Controversy resulted in the Trinity doctrine, the foundational doctrine of the Church. The modern study of the Arian Controversy began less than 200 years ago. At first, by focusing excessively on the writings of the ‘orthodox’ but partisan authors, scholars got it completely wrong. However, particularly in the second half of the 20^th century, much progress has been made, resulting in scholars describing that Controversy very differently. However, the Wikipedia pages on the Arian Controversy are edited primarily by people intending to defend the Church rather than to defend the views of modern scholars. I leave you with some quotes from leading catholic scholars of the past 50 years:

“This conventional account of the Controversy, which stems originally from the version given of it by the victorious party, is now recognised by a large number of scholars to be a complete travesty. To see this it is only necessary to read that weighty and magisterial recent work upon the subject, La Crisi Ariana del Qarto Secolo by M. Simonetti, a Roman Catholic scholar whose integrity is as unexceptionable as his orthodoxy.” (Hanson lecture 1988)

“The study of the Arian problem over the last hundred years has been like a long-distance gun trying to hit a target. The first sighting shots are very wide of the mark, but gradually the shells fall nearer and nearer. The diatribes of Gwatkin and of Harnack [published at beginning of the 20th century], can today be completely ignored.” (R.P.C. Hanson, 1987, p. 95-96)

“Athanasius' works … are written from his point of view. When the controversy is seen from another point of view… a distinctly different picture develops.” (Lienhard, p. 416)

“The modern critical study of the subject really begins with Newman's justly celebrated essay of 1833, The Arians of the Fourth Century” (Rowan Williams, 2002, p2-3)

“Some of these problems and inconsistencies can be explained by the fact that older research depended heavily on Athanasius as its source. The 19th century lionized Athanasius and made his career appear even more glorious than it was.” (Lienhard)

“If Athanasius’ account does shape our understanding, we risk misconceiving the nature of the fourth-century crisis” (Williams, p234).

“The accounts of what happened which have come down to us were mostly written by those who belonged to the school of thought which eventually prevailed and have been deeply coloured by that fact. The supporters of this view wanted their readers to think that orthodoxy on the subject under discussion had always existed and that the period was simply a story of the defence of that orthodoxy against heresy and error.” (Hanson, 1987, p. xviii-xix)

“There has been a quite remarkable amount of new work on Arianism in recent years. … What had seemed clear points of reference faded away alarmingly as my studies advanced.” (Williams, p ix)

“'Arianism' as a coherent system, founded by a single great figure and sustained by his disciples, is a fantasy, more exactly, a fantasy based on the polemic of Nicene writers, above all Athanasius. (Williams, p82)

“A great deal of recent work … helped to demolish the notion of Arius and his supporters as deliberate radicals, attacking a time-honoured tradition.” (Williams, p. 21)

“The four decades since 1960 have produced much revisionary scholarship on the Trinitarian and Christological disputes of the fourth century.” (Lewis Ayres, 2004, p. 2)

“A vast amount of scholarship over the past thirty years (written in 2004) has offered revisionist accounts of themes and figures from the fourth century” (Ayres, p. 2).

“In his wonderful dramatic prose Pavel Florensky epitomizes a centuries-old account of the Council of Nicaea: in one decision and with one pronouncement the Church identified a term that secured its Trinitarian and Christological beliefs against heresy and established a foundation for subsequent Christian thought. The narrative offered in Chapters 1–10 demonstrates why such older accounts are deeply mistaken.” (Ayres, p11)

As an example, I quickly read the Wikipedia page on homoousios.

I made a quick assessment of the article on homoousios. That is the term used in the Nicene Creed to say that the Son is of the same substance as the Father.

Wikipedia (W) says it “was later also applied to the Holy Spirit.” But Hanson wrote that the Creed “does not apply the word homoousion to him (the Holy Spirit).” (RH, 818)

Concerning pre-Nicene usage of the term, the article only mentions the Gnostics, who cannot be regarded as Christians. I previously put in a long discussion of pre-Nicene usage which has now been deleted which quotes scholars saying (a few extracts):

·       Egyptian paganism used the term to say the Logos and Father “share the same perfection of the divine nature.” (Beatrice)

·       The term “is not to be found in the Holy Scripture” (P.F. Beatrice). “Nobody could pretend that it was Scriptural” (Hanson, p. 167).

·       Tertullian, “writing in Latin, nowhere uses any term corresponding to (the Greek term) homoousios.” (Hanson, p. 190)

·       “Sabellius used it (homoousios) … in rejecting the distinction of hypostases” (Hanson, p. 192)

·       “It is almost certainly right to conclude that Origen could not have spoken of the Son as homoousios with the Father.” (Williams, p. 132)

·       in the 260s, “some local Sabellians” () described the Son as homoousios with the Father (Ayres, p. 94).

·       “It seems … likely that Dionysius of Alexandria, in a campaign against some local Sabellians, had denied the term.” (Ayres, p. 94)

The following are examples of other concepts that are not found in the article:

·       “Homoousios before it was placed in N must have been regarded as a term which carried with it heretical, or at least unsound, overtones to theologians in the Eastern church.” (Hanson, p. 195)

·       “The word homousios had not had … a very happy history. It was probably rejected by the Council of Antioch, and was suspected of being open to a Sabellian meaning. It was accepted by the heretic Paul of Samosata and this rendered it very offensive to many in the Asiatic Churches.” (Philip Schaff)

·       “To say that the Son was ‘of the substance’ of the Father, and that he was ‘consubstantial’ with him were certainly startling innovations. Nothing comparable to this had been said in any creed or profession of faith before.” (Hanson, p. 166-7)

·       Constantine “pressed for its inclusion.” (Hanson, p. 211)

·       “The Origenists had considerable reservation about homoousios and the other phrases containing the term ousios (substance), but the emperor exerted considerable influence. Consequently, the statement was approved.” (Erickson) [Millard J. Erickson, God in Three Persons, p82-85]

·       “Constantine took part in the Council of Nicaea and ensured that it reached the kind of conclusion which he thought best.” (Hanson, p. 850)

·       “It seems … that Constantine interceded on behalf of those unhappy with homoousios, insisting on the importance of understanding the term without material connotation.” (Ayres, p. 96)“For nearly twenty years after Nicaea nobody mentions homoousios, not even Athanasius. This may be because it was much less significant than either later historians of the ancient Church or modern scholars thought that it was.” (Hanson, p. 170)

·       “Once he (Constantine) discovered that the Eustathians (extreme anti-Arians) [the Sabellians] were in favour of it (homoousios) … he pressed for its inclusion.” (Hanson, p. 202)

·       “The choice of the term homoousios seems to have been motivated in large part because Arius was known to reject it.” (Ayres, p. 90)

·       “If we ask the question, what was considered to constitute the ultimate authority in doctrine (during the Arian Controversy), there can be only one answer. The will of the Emperor was the final authority.” (Hanson, p. 849)

·       “He (Athanasius) began to use it [homoousios] first in the De Deeretis and thereafter regularly in his theological works, defending it fiercely against all criticism of it. If we place De Deeretis in 356 or 357 … .” (Hanson, p. 438)

Sorry for this untidy document. I did not realize I must comment within 24 hours and I hastily put something together.

Andries AndriesvN (talk) 13:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

We're discussing WP:Policy, not whether or not mainstream scholars are wrong. This wall of quotes is completely irrelevant; please stop including them in talk pages. You do not need to copy verbatim; that is plagiarism and a copyright violation. If reliable, independent sources - not your blog - say something, you can appropriately paraphrase and cite it, with due weight.

TypistMonkey (talk) 13:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

do note that attribution of quoted, verbatim material is a perfectly fine thing, but the part with the slippery slope is when it is done excessively and without encyclopedic purpose or context. This is therefore the definition of the slippery slope, quoting crap tonnes of these outside sources, in a talk page, for no encyclopedic purpose. BarntToust 20:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

This is not a helpful response as no-one is going to plough through all of this. Simply - you need to communicate with people and better than this. You cannot quote your own website under any circumstances. Secretlondon (talk) 23:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

What I am trying to say is this:

During the 20th century, through detailed and independent research, scholars specializing in the Arian Controversy have concluded that the Traditional Account of that Controversy is history according to the winner and fundamentally flawed. The writings of such scholars over the past 50 years present us with a Revised Account.

However, the Church does not accept the Revised Account because it casts doubt on the legitimacy of its foundational teaching; the Trinity doctrine. The Church continues to defend the Traditional Account because it reflects the views of the ‘orthodox’ fathers and supports the Trinity doctrine.

The average editor of Wikipedia articles on the Arian Controversy is not a scholar specializing in the Arian Controversy or even a student of such scholars as myself. The average editor is a Christian intent on defending the Church. By removing any statement that may cast doubt on the legitimacy of the Trinity doctrine, these articles are kept at the level of the Traditional Account.

In other words, the Wikipedia approach of building consensus through talk pages cannot work for articles on the Arian Controversy. The majority of editors will always delete ‘negative’ statements. Given the situation, Wikipedia may consider one of two options. It may delete all such articles or it may assign an independent arbiter to ensure that all edits are based on the writings of recognized modern leaders in this area. AndriesvN (talk) 03:39, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, what you're trying to say is irrelevant to your demonstrated disinterest in following article policy in several ways that have been repeatedly complained about and noted directly to you-- most severely, by essentially converting several articles into extensions of your personal blog. Secondly, you've provably misrepresented your sources in the past (e.g. misrepresenting Athanasius as Sabellian in theology through deceptively quoted passages from an author who himself didn't dare to assert that he was)-- even ignoring your lack of attention to policy, your contributions aren't valuable in terms of their information. Thirdly, your narrative isn't true-- even before you, Bart Ehrman (an atheist) was used as a prominent source for Christian theology articles to the point that many of them are written on some level around his theory of a "proto-orthodox Christianity". Arsenic-03 (talk) 03:53, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment.

A day or three ago, you deleted my paragraph that said that homoousios disappeared from the Controversy soon after Nicaea and only resurfaced in the mid-350s. You justified the deletion as follows:

“This segment is lifted from the contributor's personal blog (this complaint has already been made in the Talk page topic the Disputed notice links to). The citations also do not reference the specific book cited, and one links to the contributor's personal blog.”

Firstly, this sounds as if I invented the arguments in this paragraph. But I provided six verbatim quotes from recognized scholars, confirming this paragraph.

Secondly, you said I did not provide “reference the specific book cited.” I gave the name of the author and the page numbers. Why should I provide full details if the same authors are quoted repeatedly?

Thirdly, you say “one links to the contributor's personal blog.” That is true. But it links to a copy on my site of a lecture by the foremost 20^th-century Arian Controversy scholar; RPC Hanson. It is not one of my articles.

In my view, you deleted this very important paragraph based on minor technicalities. I claimed above that the average editor of Arian Controversy pages will always make sure that those pages revert to the Traditional Account by deleting anything that may question the validity of the Trinity doctrine.

Thans again for your comment. Such comments help me improve. regards AndriesvN (talk) 09:27, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

You say: "You've provably misrepresented your sources in the past (e.g. misrepresenting Athanasius as Sabellian in theology through deceptively quoted passages from an author who himself didn't dare to assert that he was)."

You don't provide references. I am not sure where I "misrepresented" and "deceptively quoted." In the article on my site on Athanasius' theology, I say that his theology was similar to Sabellianism. Both taught that the Father and Son are 'one hypostasis' (a single Person). Hanson (p. 235) says that "the hallmark" of Sabellianism is that the Father and Son are one Person. If we use that as the definition of Sabellianism, then Athanasius was a Sabellian. But if you can provide more specific details, I can respond more precisely. AndriesvN (talk) 14:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, you copy-pasted from your own blog, verbatim. You just can't do that, and doing so also imported the distinctly argumentative tone from your blog (which is a problem in its own right). Secondly, authors can have more than one book penned by them-- a name and a page number is useless for reference.

You don't provide references My vote includes a link to me demonstrating all the ways you misrepresented Hanson representing Athanasius (including evidence that you've argued the same on the Christianity Stack Exchange only to be summarily refuted), and you're still choosing to misrepresent both by obscuring the history of the terminology you now discuss. I read the cited sections. I've read Athanasius. Now, you've cited p.235 of what's presumably Search for The Christian Doctrine of God to assert that Athanasius and Sabellius believed the same, when the authors are speaking of Marcellus and Eustatius there, and furthermore notes that the former accused Sabellius of incorrectly rejecting the Logos-doctrine. This is why I distrust the informational value of your contributions. Arsenic-03 (talk) 16:00, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, you copy-pasted from your own blog, verbatim. You just can't do that

If my site is a summary in my own words of what the scholars say, which ample quotes from scholars, I don’t see what is wrong in copying verbatim from it.

and doing so also imported the distinctly argumentative tone from your blog (which is a problem in its own right).

The argumentative tone is the natural result of having to deal with two versions of the Arian Controversy – the traditional and the modern.

My vote includes a link to me demonstrating all the ways you misrepresented Hanson

It is a pity that I was not made aware of your writings against me. You did not name me, so I was not informed. I would have liked to respond. But I can now at least see where you got the idea that I said Athanasius is a Sabellian. It is a question I put on Stackexchange which you interpreted as rhetorical. But Hanson is my hero. I would never misrepresent him.

Now, you've cited p.235 of what's presumably Search for The Christian Doctrine of God to assert that Athanasius and Sabellius believed the same, when the authors are speaking of Marcellus and Eustatius there, and furthermore notes that the former accused Sabellius of incorrectly rejecting the Logos-doctrine.

Again, you make it sound as if I was misrepresenting something. Other people reading this would not know that Marcellus and Eustatius were the two leading Sabellians. And other people would not know that Athanasius and the Sabellians taught two variations of the same thing. Both taught that the Father and Son are a single Person but they disagreed on how that works. But since the main question in the Controversy was whether the Son is a distinct Person, Athanasius and the Sabellians were on the same side.

I distrust the informational value of your contributions.

I look at that paragraph on homoousios disappearing after Nicaea which you removed for no good reason. I look at the article on homoousios, as it now reads. It is empty. Of the use of the term before Nicaea, it refers only to the Gnostics, which is irrelevant. It says nothing about who in the church used it before Nicaea. It says nothing of how the term was interpreted at Nicaea, who proposed it, why it was included, or what happened to the term after Nicaea. These are issues that the scholars discuss at length. It is like a home that was ravaged by fire. This, I assume, is your doing. That is why I distrust your contributions. AndriesvN (talk) 04:45, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

your blog does not have an encyclopedic tone, and does not have in-line citations of properly-referenced scholarly material. you can show differences in two ways-of-thinking by analysing them in the context of encyclopedic discussion, not by pitting them against each other in argumentative format.

It's futile to discuss with AndriesvN. BarntToust 14:32, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

At Wikipedia we are not interested in truth, we are interested in verifiability. Even if the church (all of them?) are wrong on key points of Christianity we don't write that they are all wrong. Writing for Wikipedia is very different from writing for academia. We are writing to expand and to educate, not to prove our argument correct. You seem to be on a crusade and presume bad faith for people editing with mainstream view points. I'd strongly advise you to contribute in areas you don't care so strongly about. Secretlondon (talk) 16:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Both the scholarly and the church views are “verifiability,” but they differ. I previously understood that what you want is the scholarly view. Now I am no longer sure. “Expand and to educate,” “verifiability,” “mainstream view points.” These terms seem to go in the church direction. AndriesvN (talk) 04:20, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Due to your contributions here I think we would be right to block you from editing on Christian theology for the time being, as I don't think you are listening or understand what the problem is. Secretlondon (talk) 16:50, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to topic ban AndriesvN from Christian theology

Based on the above posts, I am proposing that AndriesvN be topic banned from Christian theology, broadly construed. I think this a basic minimum and I wouldn't oppose an indef block. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:17, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support Per nom. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:17, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• Neutral Some of their sources might have merit, but they have too much of an attitude of "Us right, everyone else wrong." tgeorgescu (talk) 18:27, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support I've demonstrated in the past that whether or not his sources themselves (outside his personal blog, which he regularly cites and copies from verbatim despite repeated policy violation notices on the matter) have merit, he's liable to grossly misrepresent the arguments and base information therein. The reality that he may be providing valuable information (or at least, information not worthy of deletion) mingled together with his argumentation makes mass contribution reversion untenable and article renovation difficult, but I nevertheless opine his demonstrable willingness to distort sources ensures that his contributions are overall a net negative. Arsenic-03 (talk) 19:04, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• Suggest an indef seems they're mostly here to promote their personal blog website, which is not a reliable source. I notice the majority of their edits are sourced to it, which is just their own opinion and views and in no means a reliable third party source. They're not interested in editing anything else, just basically in proselytizing and explaining why their fringe worldview is right. They've had policies and guidelines explained to them many times, and they've clearly demonstrated they have zero intention of following them. I don't think they can be productive here. (Oh and blacklist their blog at the same time.)Canterbury Tail talk 20:10, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support: I'm surprised he got in a comment in the previous ANI egregious enough to be revdel'd, and is still here. No prejudice against an indef, myself. Ravenswing 20:28, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• non-admin comment There's a comment on the user in question's talk page that seems a bit concerning: You'll find it here. It reads, "Combined with the miracles that we are surrounded with, such as the miracle of sight, it allows me to look forward to my death.". Could be emo stuff, but really not the stuff you wanna see on Wikipedia. Is this just some Heaven's Gate cult-esque morbidity or whatever? Is this just emo? Is this an actual concern? BarntToust 21:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  I think that's just religion. Secretlondon (talk) 22:04, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  i don't think this is of any concern; it's not that much weirder than saying "i look forward to going to heaven" ... sawyer * he/they * talk 13:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support an indefinite block as per Canterbury Tail. Barring that, support the topic ban, broadly construed. --Yamla (talk) 21:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support indefinite block, with an indef topic ban as second choice. Bishonen | tålk 21:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC).
• Support topic ban. I would AGF past a full NOTHERE, but they're really not getting the point of WP regarding sourcing. I can't see that revelationbyjesuschrist.com has any place here on WP, and certainly not when it's added by its author. If it's backed up by so much research, This article quotes from the world-class specialists in the fourth-century Arian Controversy., then why not quote those as RS instead?

If this gets worse or spread (and that would be no surprise), then INDEF is still a possibility. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:26, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• I agree that the editing is disruptive, and if unchecked then a block would be necessary. I have offered to help them get their head around what we do here - I don't know whether that will help, but if they are willing to engage then we might get somewhere. If they don't respond to my offer, I don't object to the apparent consensus for an indefinite block/TBAN. Girth Summit _(blether) 00:48, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support Topic Ban - I think a topic ban at least is a must given their conduct in this area. I could go either way on an indef; they don't seem to be particularly collaborative, obviously a major issue, but they also may be more amenable to the opinions of others in a topic that isn't so important to them. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 01:33, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
• I'd prefer that this discussion isn't closed until we have heard from User:AndriesvN. I am interested in hearing their response to this critique. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Policy says we have to wait at least 24 hours, too. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  The user in question has already written a lengthy-as all hell would let out tangent of some supposedly cited backups of content on their talk page to Liz. The sources they give may be of merit? They have been given an ample notice to see what has transpired here. They have made a choice to not engage here, or maybe they do not care? Also, they have spoken with Girth Summit on their talk page, in which Girth reiterated the ANI discussion taking place, and gave some very helpful advice to them on their misgivings.

  They either know that this is going on and don't care, or or they are just blissfully unaware of the way Wiki works. Look, WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU might be going on, but they are well-aware of the other stuff on their talk page. They may yet actually be doing research, or it could all just be WP:FRINGE cruft. Who knows? BarntToust 13:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Well they responded in the section above with a massive wall of text, most of which is not about the actual topic of this complaint. I really don't think they get it or understand what Wikipedia is for. Canterbury Tail talk 13:48, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  I guess that this obliges me to read their user talk page response. Wish me luck. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:43, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Just to note that the above was Liz's last post since departing for that user page. Liz? Liz? Are you all right? Should we send in a rescue party? EEng 06:32, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  @EEng, you get the SatNav, I'll drive the Jeep! into the jungle of fringe-y Christian theology we go! BarntToust 16:19, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  I was trying to put together a proper reply. My habit is to sleep over things. AndriesvN (talk) 09:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support as a minimum. They've not just used they're own blog as a reference but embedded links into the text of articles. The changes they've made are not backed up the the sources in the article and appear to have quite a lot of OR in them. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:37, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think I got all the WP:EL vios. Haven't removed all the citation templates using the blog as a source because I have no interest in locating a better one. Folly Mox (talk) 01:01, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  As an aside, given this editor's propensity for providing verbatim quotations rather than summarising in their own words, I suspect the source material hosted on their blog – excepting, of course, their own OR posts – comprises faithful reproductions of the original sources. So not every citation to the blog is as bad as it seems, although clearly still inappropriate. Folly Mox (talk) 14:49, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. Numerous citations of own blog, does not understand or intentionally ignores WP:OR. Lengthy argumentative passages on talk pages, and this is an ongoing issue. I would extend this to everything related to Christian theology and early church history - arguments about discussion of Councils and Creeds are also problematic. TypistMonkey (talk) 12:59, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
  • I consider those to come under "broadly construed" Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:46, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
• The editor is showing no interest at all in improving. Three points, really: a. they can't seem to make an argument without completely losing sight of the matter at hand, an ongoing problem, and continue trying to prove that they are right in all kinds of places--here, their talk page, edit summaries, without ever involving the fact that we are an encyclopedia and the crux is their behavior. b. Their walls of (irrelevant) text only exacerbate their disruption. c. Perhaps most damning, they continue they show an incredible amount of bad faith; they did so here, in a note on their talk page where their only response was to argue that they were right on the content, and again here, in one of the defenses of their rightness--look at the last paragraph for the conspiracy theory, "the Wikipedia pages on the Arian Controversy are edited not by the world's leading scholars but primarily by people intending to defend the Church". Enough already. I'm for an indef block/ban, and a topic ban at the very least. Drmies (talk) 16:11, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• I have edited the article (meaning Arianism) in the past, and I'm not a Christian, so I don't seek to "defend the Church". I have even WP:CITED Bart Ehrman in the article, he is an atheist. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AndriesvN&diff=prev&oldid=1254709248

• Support indef block with topic ban as a distant second. The 2000+ word response that they posted indicates an inability to speak plainly and collaborate with other editors. Toughpigs (talk) 20:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support indef block, or topic ban if not enough consensus for a block. The user in question doesn't seem to understand or respect the purpose of Wikipedia, and has been around long enough (and confronted about it enough times) that they really have no excuse. Case in point: when confronted for turning articles into argumentative essays (see top of thread), user responds with a long argumentative essay in defense of their theology. Completely beside the point. This is an encyclopedia, not a journal of theology. Given the user's persistent unwillingness to change, I think a topic ban is a bare minimum, and an indef block more appropriate. HieronymusNatalis (talk) 10:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support, indef block, per nom. Raulois (talk) 13:20, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  What do we mean by topic ban? If it’s only circumscribed to not editing on the articles that he has been disrupting, then that wouldn’t be a good idea. I would approve of T-banning him on anything that pertains to Christian theology. Raulois (talk) 00:51, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support t-ban on Christian theology as broadly construed as is possible. I think this editor could be formed into a successful contributor once exposed more thoroughly to Wikipedia's requirement to collaborate. A medium-length (two-three weeks) general block may also help them cool off. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:00, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Can we get a close on this? It looks like there's an overwhelming consensus that favors a broad t-ban with a marginal consensus against an indef. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

    Cullen has indef'd them. Secretlondon (talk) 16:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

    Ah, missed that. A shame but appropriate. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBan appealable after one year and every year thereafter. Oppose block (for now). Clearly there is a problem here that requires some form of editing restriction. My usual preference is to go with the lowest level of sanction that will resolve the problem. In this case, I am not yet satisfied that AndriesvN is NOTHERE. That said, if there is not an improvement in their editing after the imposition of the TBan, then a block may become necessary. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban. They need to edit on different areas. Secretlondon (talk) 16:47, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support topic ban or indef on grounds of WP:Nothere. Xxanthippe (talk) 05:20, 3 November 2024 (UTC).
• Comment I'm not going to plow through all the nonsense about Athanasius and Sabellius and Marcellus and Eustatius and Logos and vehement homoousios, so I don't have an opinion on whether anyone should be blocked or topic-banned or whatever. But if someone's topic-banned, why just wrt Christian theology? My spidey sense tells me that's asking for trouble. How about instead: anything related to religion or theology (with the proverbial broadly construed provision, natch). EEng 06:29, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
• I have indefinitely blocked AndriesvN as not here to build an encyclopedia. They have shown that they are here only to push their own idiosyncratic theological theories, to promote their blog, and to insist that they know the "truth". As for a topic ban, I see no evidence that this editor is interested in improving articles about butterflies or asteroids or blues music or particle physics, or any other topic except early Christian theology. Their singular focus is to push their personal pet theological theories, so I fail to see what a topic ban would accomplish. Cullen328 (talk) 06:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban at minimum, not really sure why not an indeff as nobody has presented good work in other topic areas. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:37, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  familiar with WP:SPA? that's the idea behind indeff. BarntToust 17:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  Oh sorry, double negative, I missed that. misunderstood since I missed the double negative 😅 BarntToust 17:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Cullen328, since you issued an indefinite block before this discussion weighing a topic ban could conclude, could you please close/archive this discussion with some words on your action. That would give the discussion an air of finality. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Improper vanishing and restoration of a deleted article

Last year, I had a protracted debate at an AfD with Errico Boukoura. TLDR: the nominated article, which was written by him, used unencyclopedic language and the author bypassed proper AfC, after several failed AfC submissions, by removing the controversial parts and adding them back after passing AfC. At the AfD, everybody, except the author, agreed with deletion. After the deletion, the author vanished.

Today, I noticed the article (with a slightly differently spelled name) exists again. The unencyclopedic language is similar, if I remember well, to the original article. It was created just a few days after the closure of the AfD by IlEssere in their very first edit. Some historical revisions even use phrasing I remember from the original article:

• The transformation of the building into an artists hub elevated its status in the Athenian subculture art scene.
• The building came to symbolize the vibrant artistic community of the city, hosting a variety of exhibitions, performances, and initiative projects
• Today, the building of Keramikou 28 stands as a symbol of the Athenian art scene through the numerous exhibitions, performances, and projects hosted within its walls

Also note that the current article passed AfC, albeit in a much shorter version than the current text.

Pinging editors who participated in the AfD: @Explicit, Star Mississippi, S Marshall, XOR'easter, HandThatFeeds, and Daniel. Also pinging @ToadetteEdit, who approved the current article at AfC.

– Janhrach (talk) 14:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

 Note: I forgot to note, to avoid confusion, that the current article is not a verbatim restoration of the deleted one. Janhrach (talk) 14:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I just got pinged; I didn't remember reviewing the draft and didn't noticed the AfD, but to be clear, doesn't the article meet G4 of speedy deletion? ToadetteEdit (talk) 15:09, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

When I thought that G4 applies, eligible page should be identical, and the substantial addition since the acceptance makes it ineligible, if I interpret policy properly. Other than that an AfD may be appropriate as I fail to verify any qualifying sources in the article that makes the building notable. ToadetteEdit (talk) 15:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I’m not sure if you’re referring to the original page or the one I created. Regarding the page I created, the articles in Greek are the ones that mention the points you're addressing. IlEssere (talk) 15:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

For the record, I am referring to your (recreated) article. ToadetteEdit (talk) 15:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

All information added to the page is referenced, though most sources are in Greek, as this building is in Athens and has primarily gained attention locally.

You can share which specific parts you are referring so I can help with the transition of the reference. IlEssere (talk) 15:48, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• Translation IlEssere (talk) 15:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion, I meant this edit, which happened after the AfD. You reviewed the recreated article, not the original one (that which was deleted). Janhrach (talk) 15:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Saw the diff, just realized that G4 would have applied, given that it was not caught by the helper script nor PageCuration to the least (given that Atlantic306 had given the article a pass) I am not sure whether G4 applies now or not with the current expanded version. ToadetteEdit (talk) 15:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm new to Wikipedia and still learning some of the terms, so I'm not familiar with what AfD means. I actually started using Wikipedia because of Keramikou 28. I came across an article related to it that had incorrect information and was poorly written, but I unfortunately lost track of it before I could figure out what happened to it.

After some research, I created a new page myself to provide accurate information on the topic. IlEssere (talk) 15:32, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

AfD=Articles for deletion ToadetteEdit (talk) 15:34, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification! It seems others have also noted that the original page may not have been properly written besides me.

As for the page o created, I'd really appreciate any guidance on ensuring the page I created meets Wikipedia's standards. If you have suggestions or would like to make any corrections or add relevant information, please feel free to do so. IlEssere (talk) 15:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Please see this. Janhrach (talk) 15:59, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

What about this? IlEssere (talk) 16:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

If you lost track of what happened to the article that had incorrect information, then why its historical revisions of your article contain text fragments from the old, deleted article? Janhrach (talk) 15:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

As I mentioned earlier, Keramikou 28 is what motivated me to start using Wikipedia. I initially copied the entire page to work on corrections offline, intending to upload them later. However, when I went to add the updates, I found that the page was no longer there, losing track of what happened.

Please feel free to make any corrections you find necessary on the page I created. If you have any questions about the Greek references, I’d be happy to help with translations for verification. IlEssere (talk) 15:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The notice about the AfD discussion was on the top of the article for two weeks. Janhrach (talk) 16:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I don’t remember if I saw the AfD notice or not, as this was about a year ago. A friend told me that the had gone through some conversations about the relation of the page, but didn’t know what happened. I’m still quite new to Wikipedia and learning how everything works, so there’s a lot I’m still figuring out. IlEssere (talk) 16:09, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

So you say that the author of the deleted article is a friend of yours? Janhrach (talk) 16:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

No, I said a friend that had gone through some conversations. IlEssere (talk) 16:21, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

What conversations? Do you mean they participated in the AfD? Janhrach (talk) 16:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

So this is substantially a recreation of the deleted article, and should be G4'ed. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:07, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that while past revisions would certainly qualify for G4, the current one contains a lot of content not present is the deleted article, so it is not eligible. Janhrach (talk) 16:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

No, this is not a copy-paste of the previous page. I used the structure of the original as a framework, but I worked on it and made changes to create new content." IlEssere (talk) 16:11, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Long story short: Last year, @Errico Boukoura: created a draft for the topic, It was submitted 5 times and it was declined by 3 distinct reviewers including a rejection by @Greenman:. Apparently the decline was due to the article's tone. It was then reviewed by an experienced reviewer and accepted it, vbut later it was sent to AfD and deleted on grounds of wp:tnt. A few days later, another created the draft and was accepted five months later. Based on this, the article is plausibly notable, so the issue should be around the prose and/or the editor. ToadetteEdit (talk) 16:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the info. Could you provide some guidance on how I can improve the prose? IlEssere (talk) 16:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but it is important to note that reviewed version of the original article was significanly abridged, and the removed content was re-added after review. Janhrach (talk) 16:16, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I understand, and I’ve made changes to this. I’ve significantly abridged the content and removed unnecessary details to make the article more concise and focused. IlEssere (talk) 16:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

My comment was about the original article created by Errico Boukoura. Janhrach (talk) 16:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I admire your honesty, but it is impossible to verfy without the ability to view deleted revisions. ToadetteEdit (talk) 16:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean? IlEssere (talk) 16:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Viewing and restoring deleted pages. ToadetteEdit (talk) 16:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought you were an admin, so you could verify my claims. Janhrach (talk) 16:30, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• In my opinion (thanks for the ping), this is not a G4, but nor does it address the issues which go far beyond prose. I have opened Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Keramikou 28 where the content is best discussed. If IlEssere's conduct needs assessing, this should remain open. If this is deleted, a note should be relayed to AfC reviewers to keep an eye out for spelling variations and that it's best left for experienced reviewers. Star Mississippi 16:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Could you share the present issues t on the current Keramikou 28 page that go beyond prose? Understanding these factors would be helpful in addressing the article's suitability. Additionally, are there specific elements (like sourcing or content focus) that you find problematic in its current version? IlEssere (talk) 16:45, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  IlEssere, article improvement is not a subject that is dealt with at ANI. I recommend asking any editors who reviewed the article for Articles for Creation if you went through that process or asking at the Teahouse. I also recommend participating in the AFD linked here so you can hear the critique of the article by editors, that might provide guidance on how to improve it. Good luck. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  I am currently participating in the AFD discussion, but I've been advised to come back here to understand what the specific problems with the page are. I'm feeling a bit confused because the opinions on here seem to overlap, and I'm not sure what the main concerns are. Could someone help me understand the key issues that need to be addressed for this article? IlEssere (talk) 22:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  IlEssere, I'm not sure why anyone would tell you to return to ANI. This noticeboard deals with editor conduct, not content issues. This is not the forum to come to for advice on improving this article and your time is best spent elsewhere. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:32, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Star Mississippi IlEssere (talk) 01:38, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Liz I did send @IlEssere back here and the prior AfD to read all of the arguments already made about why the article should not have been re-created. IlEssere it's fine if you disagree, but you really do need to listen to the other editors' input especially in the prior discussion. Liz's suggestion about the AfC declines will also help. Star Mississippi 04:31, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for your input. I just want to clarify that I'm not disagreeing. I'm genuinely trying to figure out the best approach for the article and understand how to move forward. IlEssere (talk) 04:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - This is a situation where the spelling of the title of an article has been changed when it is recreated after a deletion. This is an all-too-common practice, in particular when the name of the subject is transliterated from a non-Latin writing system. This is a situation in which it is difficult to assume good faith, because it appears to be gaming the title, which is a conduct issue However, since the article has been nominated for deletion, we can focus on the content issue at the AFD and ignore the conduct. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:44, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thank for clarifying this. I tried to clarify the problems with the page at its AfD, but @Star Mississippi directed me here to find the reason why the article was AfD. IlEssere (talk) 01:47, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  @IlEssere, you cannot understand the point. The article was sent to AfD because it is a recreated article that is not a G4 and neutrality as on the old deleted one is still disputed. ToadetteEdit (talk) 05:41, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Oh, I understand what the problem is now. I confused since other things where mentioned on here. IlEssere (talk) 13:25, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

The article should be, of course, discussed at AfD. But I think conduct should also be discussed, as there are plenty of reasons to think that IlEssere and Errico Boukoura are the same person:

1. The new article was created only a few days after the deletion of the old one. IlEssere explains this by saying that they copied the old article, worked on it, and uploaded their more-or-less finished work after the deletion. But the oldest revisions of Keramikou 28 do not seem to indicate this. They look like IlEssere restored verbatim fragments of the original article (Some passages are familiar to me, some less so, so I am not absolutely sure.) and worked on them on-wiki.
2. IlEssere claimed they didn't know what AfD means. However, they mentioned the AfD process in this Teahouse post. I find it highly unlikely that they would forget about the existence of AfD. Even if they had forgotten the name, I linked the AfD discussion above. I think it is very unlikely that they wouldn't remember even after visiting the AfD page.
3. Do not see a good-faith reason why would IlEssere leave the significant expansion of the current article for after the AfC, especially noting that they claim to be a completely new and unexperienced editor.
4. The language of the current article is similar to the previous one.
5. Both IlEssere and Errico Boukoura claim to speak English, Greek and Italian on their user page.
6. Notice the "Articles contributed" list on IlEssere's user page. It seems to be a list of all article they have edited. They list the article Theodoros Stamos there. However no edits have been made to the article by IlEssere. The last edit to the page is by Errico Boukoura.

IlEssere hasn't defensed themselves convincingly yet.

– Janhrach (talk) 10:50, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I’ve addressed most of these concerns previously.

1. I discovered the Keramikou 28 page around the time it was deleted and noticed it had a lot of misinformation and was poorly written. Since I was new to Wikipedia, I copied the entire page and began working on improving it on my own with more accurate information, better tone, correct references, and a more suitable image.
2. As for AfD, until it was brought up again, I wasn’t entirely sure what it was. When I first posted in the Teahouse, I only knew from a tech-savvy friend who followed the original Keramikou 28 AfD process that the page had been deleted due to poor references. To clarify, as @Janhrach mentioned, I am *not* connected to the previous creator.
3. Could you clarify what you mean by “similar”?
4. If you are talking about the tone, I disagree that the new version resembles the old one, which I remember as being highly promotional.
5. While I do speak English, Greek, Spanish, Italian, French, German, and Arabic, I don’t think that sharing some of the same languages as Boukoura means we are the same person.
6. Lastly, I have made improvements to each article listed on my profile, including the Theodoros Stamos page.

IlEssere (talk) 13:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Are you trying to say that this was the result of your offline work?

You said "I'm not familiar with what AfD means." and when ToadetteEdit responded "AfD=Articles for deletion", you were satisfied. This is not consistent with your reply that you weren't "entirely sure what it was".

As for the language in the old article, I will quote S Marshall:

The WP:TONE is unencyclopaedic; (2) its style is WP:EMPHATIC; and (3) it isn't WP:TERSE. It's full of needless modifiers (adjectives and adverbs), some of which border on peacocking. Someone really passionate about Kerameiko28 might write the content we're considering on an information leaflet -- we, as dispassionate and objective encyclopaedia writers, need to be succinct, direct, and clear.

This description also fits the current article.

Can you please post the diff in which you edited Theodoros Stamos? Was it this one or this one?

– Janhrach (talk) 15:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I didn’t even remember this, I thought you were referring to the current page. I'm not sure when I created that one, it was likely early edits in my Wikipedia.

What I tried to do was; copy the original page and make corrections, intending to update to how the current Keramikou 28 page looks.

As for AfD, I now know what it is, so lets focus on the current page.

Concerning my edits on Theodoros Stamos, I need to review them, as I can't recall when I made the edits. As you can see on my page, I have been editing numerous entries recently. But please give some time since I am busy in real life. IlEssere (talk) 15:47, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

This contribution is remarkably similar in key words and editing style to a number by Errico Boukoura seen at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kerameikou 28. I find myself agreeing with Janhrach's hunch above, for whatever that is worth. Daniel (talk) 00:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

The diff I presented is extremely important – it is your very first edit and the edit that created the page that is now nominated for deletion. You said:

As I mentioned earlier, Keramikou 28 is what motivated me to start using Wikipedia. I initially copied the entire page to work on corrections offline, intending to upload them later. However, when I went to add the updates, I found that the page was no longer there, losing track of what happened.

This diff, at least seemingly, disproves this claim. I really fail to see how the text added in it, or in the few following edits, could be seen as a suitable replacement for the now-deleted article. Janhrach (talk) 17:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Backlink: Wikipedia:Teahouse § Articles for deletion/Keramikou 28. Presented without comment: el:Special:History/Κεραμεικού 28, it:Speciale:Cronologia/Keramikou 28. (Indentation level chosen arbitrarily). Folly Mox (talk) 05:22, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Remarkable how el and it are both languages that User:Errico Boukoura has listed on their userpage as proficient or native, and IlEssere happens to create articles on this topic on both those wikis. At some point, we need to accept what is staring ourselves in the face. Daniel (talk) 10:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I would welcome an uninvolved editor taking an action (be it warning or whatever else) against the bludgeoning of quite big proportions on the AfD. Janhrach (talk) 20:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Can you share more details on why this is bludgeoning? It doesn’t sound like bludgeoning on the AfD. 2601:249:9281:ED10:9185:7724:F13C:799C (talk) 20:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)— 2601:249:9281:ED10:9185:7724:F13C:799C (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Quote from the essay explaining bludgeoning: attempts to force their point of view through a very high number of comments, such as contradicting every viewpoint that is different from their own. Typically, this means making the same argument over and over and to different people in the same discussion or across related discussions. Janhrach (talk) 20:42, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I know what bludgeoning is in Wikipedia. I was referring to the article and which parts are bludgeoning in this specific page. I’ve went through the references and everything seems to be correct. 2601:249:9281:ED10:9185:7724:F13C:799C (talk) 20:48, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I referred to the AfD discussion, more specifically to IlEssere's conduct in it, not to the article itself. Janhrach (talk) 20:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. In my opinion, the article looks okay and thoroughly researched. I'm not sure why it received an "Adf" since minor details need to be improved. 2601:249:9281:ED10:9185:7724:F13C:799C (talk) 21:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

IlEssere, did you forget to log in? Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 20:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean? IlEssere (talk) 21:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

What to do next? Almost everybody who participated in the AfD agreed that IlEssere and Errico Boukoura are the same person. Should I write a note to the AfD for the closing admin to also consider closing this ANI thread? Or should we wait passively until an uninvolved admin comes by and takes an action? Or should a SPI be filed? Janhrach (talk) 16:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

If I had read this ANI first, I would have have blocked IlEssere per WP:DUCK, because the quacks are loud and obivious, IMO. However, since I participated in the AFD as editor, I'm now considered involved to take any admin action. I was hoping another uninvolved admin would come along and come to the same conclusion that I did, but so far, none have. So, maybe I'm wrong. You can try filing a report at WP:SPI, but it's likely that since Errico Boukoura hasn't edited in 10 months, nothing will be concluded as the data will be stale. Of course, I could be wrong on that. Maybe they have logged in. Maybe other sleepers will be found. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 11:41, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I have been thinking about this and I don't think SPI is a good idea. The evidence is very strong, so they will probably refuse CU. It would just waste their and our time. I have decided I will leave a note at the AfD for the closing admin to consider taking an appropriate action. Janhrach (talk) 16:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry

It's quite obvious that IlEssere and Errico Boukoura are the same user. If you choose to WP:VANISH, you go away and don't come back. If this was an attempted WP:CLEANSTART, you should have avoided trying to recreate this article. Besides the obvious connection with the recreation of this deleted article and the timing of it, what are the chances that they are both from New York City (Special:Permalink/1226370017 and User:Errico Boukoura), are native speakers of English, with same proficiencies in Greek, Italian, and Spanish (User:IlEssere vs User:Errico Boukoura)? One is a professor and the other an "art historian"? Now, 2601:249:9281:ED10:9185:7724:F13C:799C comes out of no where and finds this ANI discussion using the same "Can you share..." language? I'm not buying it. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 21:31, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate your thoroughness, but I believe we've already spent considerable time discussing this topic. For the record, (and this is the last time I am talking about this topic) I speak seven languages, two of which seem overlap with the previous user’s according to Jauerback. Additionally, I don’t live in New York City, so I’m not sure what led you to that conclusion.

@Jauerback I’m not entirely sure why, but as I review the AFD of the original article alongside what you’ve shared, the AFD of the new version, and your edit history, it seems you have a strong focus on Keramikou 28 for some reason. IlEssere (talk) 21:44, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, that's an interesting answer. New York City was listed in a previous version of your user page, linked above. I don't really care how many languages you claim to speak, but both of your user pages list the exact same languages with the exact proficiencies. That's a helluva coincidence. I'm curious, what leads you to believe that I have a strong focus on Keramikou 28? Is it all of my edits to the article (none)? Or is it my single comment in the current AFD for it? Or maybe my (now) three commments on this ANI? Please share. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 21:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I'm going to log off for the day and will be back online tomorrow, I have to much work to get down. You seem quite agitated, and I want to clarify that I'm not looking for online conflicts. My intention is simply to have open and honest conversation about our perspectives. I value communication and hope we can discuss this calmly.

But to clarify and address your question before I log off, my concerns extend beyond your focus on Keramikou 28 page. I've observed that your edits appear somewhat random and don't convey a clear interest in the subject matter. As a result, without additional art-related or building-related edits, you are the only user connecting Keramikou 28, both directly and indirectly to Adf.

In addition, there is a consistent effort to find problems with the page or with me personally, regardless of the evidence provided. This ongoing scrutiny raises concerns and feels somewhat suspicious to me. Wikipedia is about collaboration and resolution rather than continual criticism. IlEssere (talk) 22:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• done IlEssere (talk) 22:06, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  This makes close to zero sense. Are you using a LLM? Also, both you and your IP should get the acronym right. It's AFD, not ADF.Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 03:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think their comments about you were meant to be addressed to me. Janhrach (talk) 14:54, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Correction: IlEssere said he lives in New York City whereas Errico Boukoura only says New York. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 21:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

This seems like it's getting close to outing. If sockpuppetry is involved, it should be discussed at WP:SPI. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 09:28, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that an an SPI might be in order, but how in the world is this close to WP:OUTING? Everything linked is from the involved users and what they've posted on site. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 11:41, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

You are connecting a registered editor with a location. In SPIs, Checkusers won't connect IP accounts, which reveal locations, with registered editors because of privacy concerns. Unless an editor discloses where they are from on their User page, I think tracking down where they live is a step that shouldn't be taken. If Checkusers won't reveal this data in SPI reports, I don't think it should be posted to a highly public noticeboard. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Special:Permalink/1226370017 looks to me like an editor disclosed where they are from on their User page. jlwoodwa (talk) 08:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I have to disagree. The locations of the IP and what both registered users have revealed as their locaiton on Wiki don't even match up, so that was never even part of my argument. As you know, getting a different IP to get around Wikipedia isn't exactly rocket science, so between that, and the fact that original user hasn't edited in 10 months, an SPI would probably be fruitless. However, this quacks like a WP:DUCK and any passing admin who isn't involved can see that and take action. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 11:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Was digging through some old edits and found Special:Diff/1246695560. I prefer to save a detailed explanation for SPI if possible. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 22:26, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Non-admin closure of topic on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard by Bluethricecreamman

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The user Bluethricecreamman (talk · contribs) has non-admin closed a topic I started at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard regarding the reliability of CNN's political coverage before the discussion had reached any logical conclusion.

In addition to Bluethricecreamman (talk · contribs), multiple editors made calls for my discussion to be closed essentially as soon as it was opened, namely The_Kip (talk · contribs), Myceteae (talk · contribs), Daveosaurus (talk · contribs), Slatersteven (talk · contribs), and Muboshgu (talk · contribs). I feel very strongly that this is completely antithetical to the foundational principles of Wikipedia, specifically that editors should assume good faith and seek consensus in their endeavor to maintain the integrity of what should be a high-quality, neutral encyclopedia.

I believe this very clearly falls under Wikipedia's definition of WP:BADNAC, specifically the point that a closure may not be appropriate if "the discussion is contentious (especially if it falls within a Contentious Topic), and your close is likely to be controversial."

As stated unambiguously at WP:NACD, a non-administrator should not close a discussion if they have offered an opinion in it, which Bluethricecreamman (talk · contribs) did.

Personally this is very troubling. I started a topic in good faith on a very specific board, meant entirely for discussing the reliability of sources. A discussion about a foundational aspect of the encyclopedia was met with immediate negativity from other editors, with many of them outright refusing to concede basic points or even engage in discussion.

I am not alone in my assessment of CNN's political coverage; a cursory glance into any contentious political talk page will probably reveal multiple editors expressing a similar analysis in good faith. As it stands, that argument is typically just met by editors doing what they did to me - which is pointing to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources and saying "well, the name is in green on the list so you are wrong", even though that is exactly the discussion I was trying to have.

The entire point of a properly neutral, intellectual environment like the one laid out in Wikipedia's policies is that someone like me should be able to have a discussion like this without literally being silenced by people who simply personally do not share the same assessment and want me to stop posting. How long is too long for a discussion about the foundational principle of source neutrality? An hour? A day?

Rob Roilen (talk) 02:29, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rob Roilen: given that they noted in their edit summary: Feel free to open it up and undo this edit if I was wrong. why didn't you ask them to revert the close before dragging this to ANI? Elli (talk | contribs) 02:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I thought about it but my interpretation of WP:BADNAC is that I can't do that, maybe I'm wrong? I see that it says:

"Per Wikipedia:Deletion process § Non-administrators closing discussions, inappropriate early closures of deletion debates may either be reopened by an uninvolved administrator or could result in a request to redo the process at Wikipedia:Deletion review." Rob Roilen (talk) 02:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

No, there's never anything wrong with one editor approaching another to ask them to reverse an action unless there is a topic or interaction ban, or the request was completely unreasonably; although in those cases it wouldn't be appropriate to bring it here either. In fact, it's expected that unless there is a very good reason, editors should always discuss stuff with an editor before bringing them to ANI. The Wikipedia:Closing discussions#Challenging other closures which is linked in the very next paragraph also makes it clear that in the particular case of challenging these types of closures you should discuss it with the closer first "For other procedures, whether formal RfCs or less formal ones such as merging or splitting, contact the editor who performed the closure and try to resolve the issue through discussion". The Wikipedia:Move review and Wikipedia:Deletion review pages for the other types of reviews also make it clear editors should normally do so, with differing levels of how important it is to do so for each. Nil Einne (talk) 03:13, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

This should absolutely not have been closed by someone who offered an opinion seven times within the same discussion. [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] On that basis alone, it should be reopened. Daniel (talk) 02:54, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd agree having left several comments it was unwise to close it especially with so many others having commented. But I don't think we need to make a big deal over this, Bluethricecreamman specifically invited others to reopen it if they disagreed so I did just that. I have no objection to someone uninvolved closing it if they think it's justified. Nil Einne (talk) 03:01, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for reopening. Hopefully the editor avoids closing discussions they are active in moving forward. Daniel (talk) 03:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Elli, why did you issue a block to Rob Roilen? Was it because they opened this complaint on ANI? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:29, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

@Liz I commented above on this page explaining this. It's not just because of this complaint (which is substantively reasonable) but their approach to the entire topic area. The vast majority of their edits are arguing about recent developments American politics and not in a particularly constructive manner. Elli (talk | contribs) 03:32, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation, Elli. I was just surprised to see their name crossed out while I was reading this complaint. It's just that typically, when the block comes out of an ANI filing, it's mentioned here that an editor, especially if they are the OP, has been blocked. There was no mention in this discussion so I didn't understand the grounds for the block. I think if this persistence continues, a limited duration topic ban might be called for during this election period, but that's a separate discussion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Probably should've mentioned it in this thread too, yes. Elli (talk | contribs) 15:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I suppose I'm partly responsible for this mess (even though nobody bothered to tell me that I was mentioned) due to suggesting the quick closing of that time sink. Editor time and patience is not an inexhaustible commodity and I had hoped that stomping on the nonsense would have saved time.

I'd recommend Rob Roilen's block be converted to a one week topic ban from anything to do with American politics with the broadest possible construction. After one week silly season will hopefully be over and maybe in the meantime they will have found an article about a bird or a town or a footy team to improve. Daveosaurus (talk) 04:13, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

apologies to all. im a bit inebriated on a friday night rn and havent had a chance to respond. i made the close boldly to end a convo i suspected would not be productive on the notice board.

im fine with any revert of my close and made it boldly to suggest folks move on and continue appropriate conversations on the talk page . im happy to revert it, though i assume folks alredy have.

happy friday yall Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:58, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Good block of a disruptive SPA who already has a huge thread earlier on this page. If they resume this nonsense after November 4, their editing career is going to be a short one. Grandpallama (talk) 18:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Their very first action upon getting back from the block (aside from an Administrative Action Review filing and related user-talk posts) was to resume edit-warring on 2024 Trump rally at Madison Square Garden: [24]. I'm also wondering if this is their first account; they have a very comprehensive knowledge of how to appeal basically everything, coupled with what seems like a chip on their shoulder about Wikipedia in general (see their userpage), which is a bit eyebrow-raising for an editor with so few edits. --Aquillion (talk) 14:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

My reverted edit does not fit the definition of edit warring and is a genuine effort to A) preserve tonal neutrality and B) provide the most up-to-date context. I also do not appreciate the aspersions being cast. Rob Roilen (talk) 14:25, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Aquillion: XRV was suggested by Elli so I don't think them figuring out about it is that surprising [25]. I'm not going to check, but I'm fairly sure someone mentioned RSN to them too. I'm not aware anyone mentioned ANI to them before they came here but it is possible given all that went on and they also edited with an IP and got into trouble before, and did take part in discussion at DRN. So knowing about ANI is perhaps not so surprising. Nil Einne (talk) 09:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• Rob Roilen is WP:SEALIONING. They are complaining about the reliability of CNN based on what they perceive as bias without providing any examples of inaccuracies that would suggest unreliability. They are doing this because they don't like how CNN is covering Donald Trump on the eve of the election. The content on their deleted user page suggests they are WP:NOTHERE to me. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  I provided two recent examples of blatant inaccuracy in CNN's reporting. I do not appreciate the aspersion and accusation regarding my politics, which you are incorrect about. If you continue digging (not very far) you'll find my unambiguous statement of my politics. Rob Roilen (talk) 14:42, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  Your deleted user page is quite informative for your beliefs, as is the current one. You have provided no examples of a "blatant inaccuracy" in CNN's reporting. Just things that you don't like. So maybe it's a WP:CIR issue too. I would indef you, but for my being WP:INVOLVED in Trump-related issues on WP. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:47, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  I don't know how to more clearly state that CNN's reporting that "Trump said Liz Cheney should be shot" when he was clearly speaking rhetorically is factually inaccurate and misleading. It is the responsibility of fellow editors to seek out the actual remark in context and compare it to CNN's reporting.

  The other example also shows clear inaccuracy, where CNN reports that Trump "assailed immigrants" at large when in fact he was referencing the use of the "Alien Enemies Act of 1798 if elected to target "every illegal migrant criminal network operating on American soil."

  But here we are, discussing the topic in the inappropriate place, because the discussion on the appropriate board was closed prematurely. Rob Roilen (talk) 14:53, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, all of the responses that you got there about how CNN's reporting is accurate did not stop you from going off-topic here. It's a clear WP:IDHT situation. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:08, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  +1. The Kip ^(contribs) 02:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

2nd non-admin closure

I have attempted to appeal to the user Hy_Brasil on their talk page regarding their re-closure of this discussion and was met with accusations and an invitation to appeal it elsewhere.

I believe the non-admin closure was uncalled-for, specifically in regard to [[26]] where it is stated:

A weak local consensus that is reached between few editors or with little discussion is likely to be limited in its applicability and impact. Likewise, editors who reach strong agreement on an issue, but who may have overlooked an important policy-related aspect of their decision, may come to a strong but nonetheless invalid consensus that is quickly overturned or simply never enacted.

Seeing as the discussion was not even open for 24 hours, only involved a small number of editors at the time of closure, and did not have time to reach a broader consensus, I do not believe it was appropriate to close it. I don't know how much time is required to determine the validity of an in-depth discussion of source reliability, but surely closing such a discussion before a single day has passed is leaving much unsaid.

Rob Roilen (talk) 14:36, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

It is a real shame the first block wasn't indefinite. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 15:18, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

If I hadn’t been the one to close that discussion, I’d be proposing a topic ban from American Politics for you. WP:DONTLIKEIT, based on a misguided interpretation of bias, is not grounds to discredit a source. This was clearly explained to you. You are wasting the community’s time, which is its most valuable resource. I will not be engaging with you further. Hy Brasil (talk) 15:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I saw the thread at RSN but didn't comment, as everything that could be said had been said by others. The issues you brought up are about bias, and per WP:RSBIAS Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. I think the thread is left closed, as nothing can come of it. I would suggest doing some editing outside of contentious topics areas, new editors jumping in the deepend can be a difficult experience. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but the sources are required to be accurate and I have clearly presented more than one example of inaccuracy that I do not feel my fellow editors have adequately addressed. If people are misinterpreting rhetorical devices, and endorsing reporting that misinterprets rhetorical devices, this may be a WP:CIR issue, with respect. Rob Roilen (talk) 15:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry Rob Roilen I don't think you have presented inaccuracy, you've presented reporting that in your opinion is inaccurate. Take for example one you mentioned above, about Trump saying "Trump said Liz Cheney should be shot". Reporting that he said that is factual, how those words are reported on is a matter of bias. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:29, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, I welcome the discussion but we should be having it on the appropriate noticeboard. Rob Roilen (talk) 15:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

RSN is for discussing the reliability of sources, not a general forum. Nothing you have discussed is matter of reliability, so it wouldn't be an appropriate noticeboard. WP:RSBIAS isn't going to be changed. All I can say is that you should try to hear what others are trying to explain. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:37, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I have stated multiple times, in extremely clear terms, that I am trying to "discuss the reliability of sources". Why is this being ignored? Rob Roilen (talk) 15:47, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not being ignored, several editors have tried to explain that what you're discussing isn't a matter of reliability but bias. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:55, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

And we are still discussing the topic, but on the inappropriate board. I have plenty to say about it that other editors may even agree with. That's why I feel very strongly that the discussion should be reopened. Rob Roilen (talk) 16:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

No you are ignoring what you are being told, and then demanding people explain it to you again, as said wp:cir may be an issue here, as at some point you have to be able to edit on tour own tweo hands. Slatersteven (talk) 16:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

If people are misinterpreting rhetorical devices, and endorsing reporting that misinterprets rhetorical devices, this may be a WP:CIR issue, with respect. = I am correct and everyone else has a competence issue. Can an uninvolved admin either apply a TBAN or an indef, because continuing this is not productive. Grandpallama (talk) 15:39, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

This is bewildering. Obviously there is more discussion to be had on this topic. We are not discussing it on the appropriate board. Rob Roilen (talk) 15:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Likewise this [27] helpful explanation that it's not an aspersion when RR says it because RR's opinions are right whereas everyone else's opinions are just opinions. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 15:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

You are not engaging in good faith discussion. Rob Roilen (talk) 16:01, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBAN. this time sink has taken up enough time. Slatersteven (talk) 16:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  How much time is too much to spend on discussing the reliability of sources for an encyclopedia? 24 hours? We haven't even had the discussion; editors are discussing it here instead of in the specific discussion I opened on the appropriate board. Rob Roilen (talk) 16:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  When everyone has said you are wrong, you will not get your way by refusing the listen. There comes a point when you have to accept you are not going to get your way. Slatersteven (talk) 16:53, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  However I have had my say, it is time for the admins to end this time waisting. We have been more then patient. Slatersteven (talk) 16:55, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBAN, would not oppose a long-ish block. I hope that once the US election passes, all this will settle down, but I also don't see a downside to a T-ban. As for Rob's insistence that these discussions are appropriate, consider: Suppose I were at work, the team discussed a possible course of action, and everyone else agreed with an idea I was arguing against. Shouting at them, "We're not finished because I haven't convinced you yet!" would not do my career any favors. The community heard the arguments and was not convinced. Right or wrong, you have to accept that sometimes consensus is against you. To do otherwise is disruptive. EducatedRedneck (talk) 16:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  Suppose you said to someone "Bobby needs to walk a mile in Tom's shoes" and they interpreted it as you literally saying that Bobby needs to wear Tom's shoes and walk a mile. Then you tried to explain that you were, in fact, using rhetorical language to make a point. Then the other person called the police and told them you were being disruptive, and when you tried explaining this situation to the police they arrested you while a crowd of people stood around yelling about how disruptive you are for trying to explain rhetorical speech.

  Does this make sense? Rob Roilen (talk) 03:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: I'm not in favor of reopening a discussion because the user does not appear to be ready to have it, and given the bias concerns users have brought up with Rob, Rob should probably not be the user taking up this issue. For one thing, as users have sort of brushed around, a claim of significant bias should be established by second party sources and not original research. I do think users here could be more patient with Rob, understanding that a user's supposed bias isn't necessarily malicious, and that they may have a respectable opinion even if it isn't presented to the degree of actionable Wikipedia standards or with the most perfect understanding of those standards. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 16:47, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  I would respectfully counter that users have been extraordinarily patient with Rob and extended a great deal of initial good-faith interaction/feedback, given the degree of WP:IDHT on display, and given that the disruptive behavior that earned a 24-hour block has resumed immediately after the block ended. Continuing to be patient with Rob is not more important than protecting the project from Rob's time-consuming behavior. At a point, continuing to engage with an editor who has clearly indicated they are not listening--and do not intend to listen--becomes counter-productive. Grandpallama (talk) 17:48, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• In my comments above I said the first close was inappropriate, not because it was a non-admin but because it was involved. There is fundamentally nothing wrong with this second close, and quite frankly to file a second request here reeks of a battleground mentality. This viewpoint is only reaffirmed when I reviewed the user talk page conversation during the block. I agree with my colleagues above saying enough is enough. Daniel (talk) 19:09, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support TBAN. Battleground behavior was exhibited and it shouldn't continue or repeat. A topic ban could help. —Alalch E. 00:16, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support TBAN, based on timesink of WP:JDL and WP:SEALIONing. The Kip ^(contribs) 02:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support TBAN from American Politics. The battleground behavior, along with many other behavioral issues such as sealioning and bludgeoning, has resulted in a tremendous time sink for the project. Hy Brasil (talk) 02:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

All this pile-on calling this a "time sink" or "sealioning" is so antithetical to the entire point of Wikipedia. It wouldn't be a "time sink" if the discussion was open and time could be spent actually discussing the topic on the very specific, appropriate board instead of...what? Calling for an indefinite ban on my speech because I....wanted to discuss the reliability of a source? Am I hearing this correctly? If you think this is a waste of time, maybe go spend time somewhere else? Rob Roilen (talk) 02:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support TBAN and a block of at least 3 months (if not indef). Hy Brasil did nothing wrong by closing and taking 3 different editors to ANI and an Admin to WP:XRV within the span of a few days is crystal clear battleground behavior. Best, GPL93 (talk) 03:02, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  To clarify, you are stating that it is "battleground behavior" to adhere to Wikipedia policies regarding dispute resolution? Rob Roilen (talk) 03:05, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - I've asked Rob, to take a six-month break from American politics. GoodDay (talk) 03:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support temporary TBAN - as the original closer, I accept I did a bad close. i think Rob is trying to learn, and think them wading into contentious topics is probably a bad way to learn wikipedia editting. I support a TBAN from political work for a limited duration. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:10, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Never mind about limited duration, I've seen his recent edit history. Maybe a permanent TBAN should remain on the table. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:38, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic ban until at least January 22nd. This https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=1255180423 is such a textbook example of sea-lioning that if I were David Malki I'd be charging royalties for it. Daveosaurus (talk) 04:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support I was hoping an admin would just to an AE topic ban but since one hasn't happened yet, I'll support a community one. While I initially said until the election frankly even at the time and as I've though about it more I think there is a fair risk this isn't enough so hence why even the 1 week block isn't sufficient. Instead like Daveosaurus said, I think we should at least wait until January 22. I'd go further and suggest 3 months from then which will hopefully be enough for any controversy to have died down enough so it might be simpler to just say a 6 months topic ban. Nil Einne (talk) 09:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support indefinite TBAN, if not indefinite block. It might sound like a pile-on, but trust me, it's not. Rob Roilen has been on Wikipedia for what, 2 weeks? and has already pushed my nerves to their limit, and I'm pretty sure this is the same with others on here. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 12:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I love the idea it would not be a time-sink if we just allowed this to go on indefinitely. Slatersteven (talk) 12:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support indefinite block They are doubling trippling down at their own talk regarding the current week long block. Enoughs enough it's clear they are not even listening to anyone. Lavalizard101 (talk) 13:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• Comment if a longer block is not applied, a permanent ban from taking part in WP:RSN should also be applied. Best, GPL93 (talk) 13:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I think a Tban from American politics will have the same effect. Slatersteven (talk) 13:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• Noting here that per Lavalizard above, and despite the exhortations of multiple users (including myself) for them to stop and do something more productive with their time, this user is continuing to bludgeon and sealion on their talk page... including the very people trying to give them helpful advice, like GoodDay. Thus, despite being on the fence initially, I find myself increasingly, and regrettably, in support for an indefinite block - it is difficult to see how they could work collaboratively with other contributors in the future if they're unwilling to not just review and understand core policy, but also take into account the most basic and genuine good-faith feedback from experienced editors in situations of disagreement or conflict. LaughingManiac (talk) 17:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Oh, and just in case - I'm not trying to suggest that I'm one of the above-mentioned "experienced editors". I'm very new to (more) regularly editing Wikipedia, and to these administrative processes in particular. But when I see an editor that's been here for 19 years very clearly telling them that they're not listening and they should walk away, and Rob responds with the idea that their block is "textbook censorship of dissent and abuse of authority", I feel like there's going to be a recurring issue here. LaughingManiac (talk) 17:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

This is going to take some very careful writing. this [[28]] is quite, tone-deaf, to say there least. Slatersteven (talk) 18:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Note this new section on the user’s talk page. Hy Brasil (talk) 17:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• An admin really needs to to close this out or at the least review their most recent unblock appeal. There is a clear consensus here and it is also unfair to Rob Roilen to leave them waiting on a decision. Their talk page is turning into a mess. Best, GPL93 (talk) 19:19, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User with systemic bias

Whatsupkarren (talk · contribs) has a track record of editing Wikipedia solely to push a pro-Syrian and anti-Lebanese agenda with disregard to actual academic standards.

Whatsupkarren seems to have an obsession with removing any mentions of figures related to Lebanon as evidenced here [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] (This is only the tip of the iceberg and there are many other articles that follow this pattern some of which I probably have not even found)

This wouldn’t be an issue if Whatsupkarren did similar edits for other articles but they hyper fixate on only removing any mentions of Lebanese/Phoenicians in articles but are fully capable of adding sources for Syrian/assumed to be Syrian figures. Most of the sources I find to revert this take a 2 minute internet search so it's obvious Whatsupkarren is being biased in only removing, and never adding, sources related to Lebanon/Phoenicia but doing the exact opposite when it comes to Syrian/assumed to be Syrian articles.

Furthermore, when Whatsupkarren doesn’t get their way they just dismiss articles they don’t like as “unreliable” [34] [35] even if they were published through universities or other academic sources (They don’t seem to understand that an article/books reliability is based on the original publisher not an online website it can be found on) and just adds original research when they don’t get their way. [36]. Notably they removed a newspaper source that quotes Pope Francis and a bishop as “unreliable” [37] [38] but an article that uses Wikipedia as its source (WP:WINARS) is reliable.[39]

Whatsupkarren also seems to add sources without even looking at them which is essentially original research as they admitted themselves "I'd like proof that the Oxford source which I added cites that source, as I wasn't able to access it." [40] (in regards to the Oxford source which they themselves added)[41] and also here [42] where it seems they just typed a phrase [43] without actually providing a page or quote.

Their obsession with removing anything related to Lebanese goes as far as asking for advice on how to delete entire categories related to the subject. [44]

I suggest a topic ban in relation to Lebanese and Phoenician related articles as there is not really an explanation for this behavior outside of ethnic discrimination which is not what Wikipedia was intended for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Red Phoenician (talk • contribs) 21:48, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm free and allowed to edit any article on wikipedia as long as I'm sourcing my edits with reliable sources & engaging in discussions to resolve potential issues as I have done so many times and also not being as offensive as you have been with me for a while. It was you who started using rude language with me by calling me an illiterate, ridiculing me for making typos, calling my edits trolling even though I was using reliable sources, and trying to provoke me by claiming that I was incompetent. This can be seen in this discussion. Which Red Phoenician refused to continue and refused to answer my concerns which I had raised.

-There's been a trend on Wikipedia for years, where editors have been classifying notable figures as Lebanese without sources. And also classifying common Levantine/Arab/Middle Eastern cultural elements as distinctly "Lebanese" even when they don't have any Lebanese ancestry or when the subject is actually common to the broader Levantine/Middle Eastern region. It seems like this has been going on for quite some time. While I'm sure similar situations might occur with other Middle Eastern countries, the Lebanon-related instances seem to stand out the most. I've been trying to fix that for a while; I'm not racist; I want historical accuracy. If you have any issues with my edits, you could've simply started

discussions on the relevant talk pages to raise your concerns. I am ready to discuss with any user every single one of my edits. It was me and not you who started the two discussions we had.

-Red Phoenician has been wikihounding me for months, very often disruptively, adding sources that are not reliable or don't accurately reflect what they added 1 and 2, using a rude & provocative language with me.

-Red Phoenician has been misusing sources and not adding accurately what the sources they add say.

For example: in the Frumentius article, I removed content that wasn't accurately supported by reliable sources, the article used to say Saint Frumentius was "described as ethnically phoenician", that wasn't & isn't backed by reliable sources. Red Phoenician later reverted my edit and added sources that, still, didn't state that he was described as ethnically Phoenician. Using "ethnically phoenician" is very problematic historically. Later I added a more accurate representation of what Red Phoenician's sources say. And that he might have been Greek too since a book published by Oxford described him as such. Red Phoenician thought my edits were disruptive and show possible trolling.

-Regarding Marina the monk, yes, the source which I removed still isn't working, at least with me. The link seems to be dead. Many saints, who were not from modern day Lebanon used to be in the category of Lebanese Saints. Red Phoenician previously added a saint from what is today Syria to that category and also a saint from persia. No sources anywhere say they were Lebanese. saints who were not from what is today Lebanon were also in this category. The category was a mess, and still is, up to a point. None of the saints in the category are described as Lebanese by cited sources or reliable sources, far as I know, which I think violates WP:NOR. I also didn't want to delete the category as Red Phoenician claimed, more modern saints, for whom we have sources that actually call them Lebanese could be added to this category.

-Red Phoenician added that the city of Byblos had a reputation of being the oldest in antiquity, the source they used doesn’t say so, it doesn’t say the city had a “reputation”, the word reputation implies a belief held by people in general, not only one person. This shows yet again, that the user doesn't show accuracy in a lot of his edits.

-Regarding Jounaton Roumi, in a cited interview he says that his father's father was from Syria. Not Lebanon. Syro basically is a combining form of Syrian-Lebanese. The man said that his grandfather was from Syria. Regardless. I later kept the article as you edited it.

-Regarding, Pamphilus of Caesarea, the sources simply did not say he was Phoenician. So I removed this unsourced claim, and opened a talk page asking whether anyone has sources that call him Phoenician.

You really find that annoying, right?

-"Most of the sources I find to revert this take a 2 minute internet search" although I'm not responsible for adding a source to an unsourced material, I often do my research before removing them.

-Regarding this, you misused your sources, again, your sources, apart from one that you couldn't prove to be reliable, and which I showed wasn't reliable enough, didn't accurately support continuous occupation. This is the main issue and this is why I reverted your edit. Me claiming that researchgate isn't reliable wasn't what led me to remove your edits.

-Not sure how this is original research? This is literally what the source says. Any issues you have with my edits could've been raised on the talk page but you did not do so.

-"Notably they removed a newspaper source that quotes Pope Francis and a bishop as “unreliable”"

First off, why did you not raise your concerns on the talk page discussion that I started?

Secondly, I could not find evidence that the newspaper you had cited is a reliable source, you could've simply explained on the talk page why you think it is. Thirdly, your source doesn't quote Pope Francis, who isn't a subject matter expert, to begin with, it talks about what a Maronite Archbishop who is said to have been a friend of Pope Francis, said.

-"but an article that uses Wikipedia as its source (WP:WINARS) is reliable."

How does this article use Wikipedia as its source? The Sydney Morning Herald is a reliable source per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. Regardless, you could've simply raised your concerns in the talk page discussion which I started. Again, this proves your unwillingness to engage in productive discussions.

-"Whatsupkarren also seems to add sources without even looking at them which is essentially original research"

No, the source which I used provides a quote which I provided in the discussion. Without the need to download the whole book.

Regarding the Aleppo book, no, you're wrong again, and you could've simply asked me to provide the page which I would've definitely done. You simply didn't. I copied and pasted the link of the page but Wikipedia links sometimes do not work.

I think this report proves Red Phoenician's unwillingness to engage in discussions to resolve issues, Red Phoenician seems to hold a grudge against me and doesn't like how I've been accurately following Wikipedia's policies. The user also has been engaging in original research for years.

I suggest this user be at least punished for the rude language they used with me. Whatsupkarren (talk) 10:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

It is not rude to point out a user's (WP:COMPETENCE), it is obvious English is not your first language and there is nothing wrong with that but when you constantly mess up pages with grammar issues [45] as you have done just now with “Jounaton Roumi” and “Other non Lebnaese saints” it becomes hard to tell if these are genuine mistakes or some weird form of insult.

There was no point addressing you in the Frumentius talk page as you admitted to original research and asking to access sources you yourself added.

Regarding my addition of Saints to the Lebanese Maronite saints category that was because there never was a standalone Maronite saints category…until I created it. I didn’t contest these or the manakish edits so I don’t see the issue.

“although I'm not responsible for adding a source to an unsourced material, I often do my research before removing them.” This isn’t true as I clarified before because you’re perfectly capable of finding sources of things NOT related to Lebanon/Phoenician but seem incapable when this is the case.

As for the Wikihounding accusations many of the pages you edited were on my watchlist don’t think you’re so special. Of course once I saw it was just removing everything Lebanese ever I reverted those with sources as this is constructive and nothing else.

Rest of this is them acting like they’re not aware of their actions/acting as if the issue is a personal attack and not an issue with the contributions so I hope an admin gives their insight into the issues. Criticism of competence is not rude and they are the only one taking it personal “You really find that annoying, right?” and “Duhh”[46] among others. Wikipedia is not a battleground for passive aggressive ethnic squabbles it’s based on reliable academic sources not getting upset for things such as a Lebanese city having claims to be the oldest. Red Phoenician (talk) 20:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Also it seems they're just trying to get me banned now on baseless accusations instead of accepting any criticism. [47] Red Phoenician (talk) 21:12, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

You too made grammar mistakes in the past ( I won't call you illiterate though ) even native speakers often make typos and grammar mistakes; that doesn't make it okay to call or even imply someone is illiterate or incompetent when you know that they're able to communicate effectively with you. It is obvious that this language was intended to provoke me. Otherwise, you wouldn't have made fun of me for fixing a typo. The mistake I did on Gibran Khalil page is a typo, not a grammar mistake, I mistyped the name of a Lebanese city. And no I'm not constantly messing up articles, you'd like others to believe so, so that you can justify your rude language.

I did not admit that I engaged in original research, let me explain this to you again, I couldn't access the book, but a quote from the book is provided by Oxford references https://www.oxfordreference.com/search?btog=chap&isQuickSearch=true&q=Meropius+Greek

I already provided the quote on the talk page.

"because there never was a standalone Maronite saints category"

That still doesn't justify adding them to such a category, you should've created a standalone maronite category if you really wanted to add them to a maronite category

"many of the pages you edited were on my watchlist"

But also many, so many of the articles I edited hadn't been touched by you until I stepped in.

most recently this one where you added an unacceptable source per Wikiepdia policies.

Sifting through Red Phoenician's edit history, it becomes obvious that the user has had a pattern of removing the term Arab from articles

1, 2, 3, 4. However, I won't claim that you're ethnically discriminating against Arabs, if I had issues with any of those edits, I would've simply raised my concerns on the relevant talk pages.

I wasn't getting upset over a Lebanese city having claims to be the oldest, i was upset by your inaccurate edits, you keep misusing sources by adding claims not accurately reflected in the sources, you, yourself added. Whatsupkarren (talk) 21:51, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Stop with the crocodile tears over the typos nobody is insulting you, you are the one going “Duhh” as you view this as a personal issue. You just admitted you couldn’t access the source again…and I said I created a category, you aren’t properly reading what I am saying. As for Massad again I did not contest your removal but added a more reliable source since you ignored Caldwell’s. Yes Maronites are Syriac not Arab and dabke is an ancient Levantine dance unless you are now going to argue that the Canaanites were Arab. As for Byblos if you had an actual issue you would’ve gone to the source dispute resolution instead of only removing the Lebanese/non-Syrian cities from the list while keeping the Syrian ones even without proper sources. Red Phoenician (talk) 23:19, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

You won't even admit that you used a rude language with me.

-Yes again, for the millionth time, I can't access all of the book, I can access a quote from the book, which means it wasn't original research. You also refused to provide me with the link in the discussion which showed your unwillingness to cooperate, I wanted to verify what you were claiming in that discussion.

-I know that you later created that category, but you shouldn't have added them to the Lebanese category in the first place as that violated wikipedia's policies" AND btw it was me and not you who eventually removed them from that Lebanese category, why ?

-I wasn't trying to make a point about Maronites' ethnicity, and I really am not interested in doing so. I was trying to show you that by your logic, not mine, you also are discriminating against a group of people, and have an obsession with removing anything related to Arabs.

-It was me who asked for a third opinion, I asked user Demetrios1993 who has proved to be very knowledgeable, if they could provide input, they did. You could've simply taken it to the dispute resolution page, no one told you not to do so. And again, you want me to be punished for not editing x too, I don't have to. The sources that were used with the Lebanese cities did not show continuous occupation or weren't reliable enough. If you had issues with my edits, engage in the discussion on the talk page Whatsupkarren (talk) 00:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Red Phoenician, I have to say, having briefly looked into some of these, it sure looks like you're throwing stones from inside a glass house. -- asilvering (talk) 20:42, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

After reading my most recent response could you provide some examples please. Red Phoenician (talk) 20:45, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Glass house indeed. I had a brief interaction with Red Phoenician last year on Lebanon. From what I could see looking at their edits at that time they appeared to be here to push a WP:FRINGEy POV that the Christian Lebanese are not Arabs but, somehow, ancient Phoenicians. See Phoenicianism. I haven't looked at the dispute they have with this particular user but any accusations from them of "systemic bias" takes chutzpah. DeCausa (talk) 21:50, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't recall this interaction specifically but I assume it was related to the infobox note which was cited by three sources. But yes Lebanon is a diverse country with various ethnicities with some claiming descent from Phoenicians as has been proven genetically, [48] but arguing over self-determination is outside the scope of this dispute. Red Phoenician (talk) 23:05, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think I remember your liberal use of WP:SYNTH to support your tendentious WP:FRINGE POV-pushing. DeCausa (talk) 07:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Is this relevant? I don’t think tarring a party without a goal of sanctions is fair to do at ANI—bring diffs or stop raising unsupported accusations; it’s derailing. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 18:02, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I have not noticed any significant problematic behavior from Whatsupkarren. On the contrary, I think the problem is Red Phoenician. I have followed Red Phoenician's contributions for years and it is immediately noticeable that many of his contributions on Wikipedia are guided by very strong ideological positions (Phoenicianism and ethno-nationalist ideas). You can see that the user in question makes ethnonationalist comments even here (the idea according to which "Maronites are Syriac not Arab" is indeed WP:POV and WP:FRINGE). I believe that this behavior is irreconcilable with Wikipedia (I am a regular contributor to the Italian Wikipedia and I can assure you that a user with this kind of behavior would have been blocked there years ago). It is a dynamic very similar to that of User:Chris O' Hare, who was finally blocked months ago. --Syphax98 (talk) 10:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

User:Hninsiphyutoxica

Hi friends, can someone help me sus out what this editor is up to? Their editing patterns are very bizarre... they seem to add a photo to an article, and then they go back and remove it a few minutes (or hours) later. This has repeated several times.

Examples:

• Added a photo, then removed it 2 hours later

• Added a photo, then removed it

• Added a photo, then removed it as an IP editor, then removed it as their logged in account after the removal was reverted as an unexplained content removal

• Added a photo, then removed it 4 hours later

• *Added a photo, then added attribution in the caption (perhaps an attempt to advertise the business?), then removed the photo altogether

• Added a photo, then removed it 3 minutes later

• Added a photo, then removed it, then added it back, then removed it

• Added a photo (this isn't even a photo of this person), then removed it 1 minute later

• Added a photo, then immediately removed it

• Added a photo, then added attribution in the caption, then added the image back after it was removed by another editor, then the image was deleted from commons and removed by a bot

• Added a photo, then removed the photo 2 hours later

• Added a photo, then removed the photo 3 hours later

it goes on...

The user has been warned several times about making "test edits" and I've specifically asked them about their weird edit history but received no response. Seems like they are WP:NOTHERE.

Any ideas? RachelTensions (talk) 05:36, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking gaming the system to get extended confirmed status (was thinking autoconfirmed but they already have that, and a very weird way to do it especially since they're nowhere near the edit requirement anyway). They're making mobile edits so it's possible they might not be aware they have a talk page. Other than that I'm not really sure myself. If they're not responding to anything they should probably be blocked from article space until they can explain what they're doing. Procyon117 (talk) 05:53, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Also, yesterday they nominated for deletion the most frequent photo they're using at commons. They uploaded the photo as "own work" and CC-BY-SA4, but now state the photo should be deleted because they "sold the copyright to another person"... bizarre. RachelTensions (talk) 06:02, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

The weird patterns have continued even after this ANI...

Added image, then removed it 6 hours later.

Also it looks like their most frequent image has now been deleted at Commons. RachelTensions (talk) 15:23, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Aaaand now they've re-uploaded the image and added it back: [49] Countdown is on to see how long this one lasts... RachelTensions (talk) 18:23, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Update: they removed it again, made it 2-ish hours this time. RachelTensions (talk) 19:45, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to give them a pblock from Nang Khin Zay Yar, I admit somewhat speculatively, to see if that gets us anywhere. -- asilvering (talk) 20:16, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Was I dreaming, but when we decided to eliminate all coverage of pro wrestling because it's not worth all the trouble, didn't we throw beauty pageants into the deal for the same reason? EEng 20:28, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Support block. See c:Commons:Deletion requests/File:ဘွဲ့ဝတ်စုံ နှင့် နှင်းဆီပန်း အနီရောင်များပန်ထားသော နန်းခင်ဇေယျာ.jpg. Taylor 49 (talk) 13:25, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

You probably were dreaming. I share your dream. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:15, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Fastily

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I have some concerns about how Fastily deletes U5s. I have talked about this to them already but that conservation did not resolve my concerns (see User talk:Fastily#U5s). According to the speedy deletion crtieria, a U5 is Pages in userspace consisting of writings, information, discussions, or activities not closely related to Wikipedia's goals, where the owner has made few or no edits outside of user pages, except for plausible drafts and pages. I came across Fastily because I received a mentorship question where a newcomer asked why their page was deleted (User talk:Clovermoss/Archive 13#Question from Bristlepaddy (12:02, 21 October 2024)). It's a fairly commonplace question and usually such deletions are warranted. However, I was surprised when I actually looked at the page in question to see that it looks like the average draft from a random newbie. I undeleted it because I'm under the impression that this is obviously not a U5. I pinged Fastily in the discussion, hoping they'd say it was an oversight, but they didn't comment on my talk page, hence the conversation I started on theirs last night. In response to my concerns, I was told: This looks a lot like a promotional piece/resume for a non-notable individual created by an SPA with the sole purpose of increasing this individual's SEO visibility. If I'm wrong in this instance, I'd love to know why, but it's worth noting that I encounter dozens of similar attempts every single day. I don't think Bristlepaddy has the purest of intentions here. I became concerned that Fastily comes across similar situations frequently. That's the gist of it, I encourage others to read these discussions in their entirety. I am also concerned that their response to me trying to nudge them in the right direction was this: [50]. I admit the possibility that I may be wrong. But I would like other admins to give their opinion on whether these are inappropriate deletions, because I believe them to be:

• Draft:Patrick Marmion (the situation described above)
• User:Harunss1977 – clearly someone working off of Template:Biography. Not a good draft, but not a U5.
• User:Pealoei – two sentence draft about a provincial electricity service in Thailand. This is not unambiguously promotional, which is a requirement for G11.
• User:PresidentOttoBraun/sandbox – draft about a historical election

These are just within the past few days, it's quite possible that there's more. If these are indeed inappropriate deletions, ANI seems like the proper venue, as improper speedy deletion can be bitey. I realize that Fastily does a lot of good work combating spam and I don't want to disrupt that. I just want these concerns to be addressed. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• User:PresidentOttoBraun/sandbox was a hoax, as was the user's userpage, which I just deleted as a hoax.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:27, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Okay, thanks for clearing that one up. It looked fine as a glance to me and seemed confusing why it would be U5'd. Hoaxes are a different criteria, maybe it was somehow a misclick? I don't feel welcome providing feedback at Fastily's talk page anymore, so I felt like this was the best place. I also didn't want to seem too vengeful or anything, so I really did only look at stuff from the past few days. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  I doubt it was a misclick because the two criteria aren't close together when using a drop-down, and I believe the U5 was a tag by a user, meaning you just delete it and the software fills it in for you.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  A sandbox hoax can fall under U5 or G3, since the intent to create a hoax (G3) isn't known, and it might just be fucking around (U5). I've deleted entire alternate histories people have written as U5. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Ooh, can we change the U5 policy to "fucking around"? I'd support that!--Bbb23 (talk) 00:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  I was the one who tagged that sandbox (intentionally as U5). There's a long-running issue of user pages/sandboxes being used for fake articles about nonexistent or not-as-they-actually-happened elections, and CSD tagging is a little tricky for them. They're not really hoaxes per se - they seem to be used for alternate history forums of some sort, and not intended to be moved into mainspace - and sometimes it's not clear at first glance whether or not they're fake. However, if the users have made any positive mainspace contributions, then they don't fall under the letter-of-the-law for U5 even though they're misusing Wikipedia as a webhost. I tag a fair number of them since I delete a lot of the images on Commons (a more significant issue because they're mixed in with non-fake images). Pi.1415926535 (talk) 02:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  I appreciate your diligence and explanation. I think the vast majority of Fastily's deletions are good (and they do a lot of them, which is why I was having a hard time going through their deletion log)! I've been going through even more of it the past hour or so and am not finding any massive red flags, so unless someone else is aware of something I'm not, all I'm really looking for is a "I'll err on the side of caution in more ambiguous situations". I'm a big believer in holding admins accountable, so ideally when editors bring up concerns about admin actions.... they're not insulted, you know? That response to Fathoms Below kind of pushed me over the edge and encouraged me to file this thread. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Let's examine the facts here. You keep going off about assuming good faith, yet your first reply to me is accusatory, so yeah, of course I'm going to respond the way I did. Up until that point, I was willing to discuss the possibility that I could be wrong, because being human and all (unfortunately the upgrade to FastilyGPT hasn't landed yet), I do make mistakes. Back to the story, holding my tongue here, I again asked you to explain your reasoning and you responded in an accusatory way. Are you really surprised you got the response you did? I take enough abuse from vandals/spammers/LTAs, the last thing I need is abuse from my colleagues. I see some feedback below that I was heavy handed here, so if that's what the community consensus is, then I have no problem admitting to the error. -Fastily 03:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I am incredibly surprised that this was how you decided to reply to feedback. I disagree that anything I said could be described as abusing my colleagues. I asked you a clarifying question, which is only natural when your response to a draft that shouldn't have been deleted is I see dozens of similar situations every day. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 04:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Having fun twisting the narrative there? I suppose this will also be a shock to you: baseless accusations of bad faith aren't constructive feedback. I've been both patient and cordial with you, yet you have exclusively responded with vitriol and hostility. Well cool, I'll do the same, or wait, it's only okay when you get to be the one that does it huh. I called you out on it above and I guess that stings because it's the truth. Here's some friendly advice, don't run around throwing stones at others' houses when you live in a glass house yourself. -Fastily 05:25, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Having read most of these discussions, Clovermoss is absolutely not the editor coming across as hostile. You need to dial it back. Parabolist (talk) 05:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Fine, but worth noting that I wasn't the one who went around looking to pick a fight in the first place. -Fastily 05:38, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Fastily, if you see I'm a bit concerned that you said you see dozens of similar situations to this one every day. Are you saying you delete all of these as U5s? as so "accusatory" as to justify a response of If you can't (or won't admit to your mistake), then please kindly get off my talk page (where the thing she couldn't do was prove a negative), and then escalating to casting aspersions against someone else who tried to get you to chill out, you have misunderstood WP:ADMINACCT even worse than you've misunderstood WP:U5. Now is the time to hear the wake-up call, not to double (triple, etc.) down. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe) 05:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  That makes no sense, this has nothing to do with "proving a negative". I asked for an explanation as to how I might be wrong. I have never once said that I'm infallible. I did not get an explanation, only someone accusing me of making a mistake (in bad faith I might add) but then refusing to explain why. -Fastily 05:48, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Oh come on. You said, based purely on vibes, that it was SEO spam, and then asked her to somehow prove that it isn't. If you can't see how absurd an expectation that is, I don't know what to tell you. There's no accusation of bad faith. An accusation of bad faith would be something like "You frequently delete every page in CAT:U5 at once, such as here, 9 pages in 3 seconds, starting 6 seconds after the previous deletion you made (a G7). While yes, there are various workflows where this could occur innocuously, when combined with your tendency to erroneously delete things under U5, the fact that you seem to never challenge bad U5 taggings, and your inability here to justify this challenged speedy of a viable draft, sure tends to give the impression that you're mass-deleting by script while either not looking at what you're doing or only taking the most cursory glance." -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe) 06:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  There was literally an accusation of bad faith made against Fastily. Grandpallama (talk) 06:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

After reading the user talk page discussion, I am very concerned about the responses from Fastily with statements such as:

• Ok that's utter nonsense and you know it.
• Sounds like you have trouble discerning between constructive contributions and spam, which I find troubling given that you're an admin.
• If you can't (or won't admit to your mistake), then please kindly get off my talk page.
• Very convenient for you to show up here, presumably at the behest of Clovermoss.
• Both you and Clovermoss have been around long enough so your inability to understand the issue is not my problem. This has been a waste of my time and I won't be participating any further.

These statements appear to violate WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 00:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Talking about AGF is nonsense when the context is dealing with SEO spam. Two admins on a user talk page should be able to exchange opinions without a need to sugarcoat everything. Fastily handles a lot of bad stuff so it is always possible that they were wrong in this case. I don't know about that but I do know that this is not an ANI matter. Johnuniq (talk) 01:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not talking about AGF on the deleted articles. I'm talking about Fastily's comments aimed at Clovermoss and Fathoms Below rather than the deletions. The worst WP:AGF issue is the canvassing accusation (the fourth talk page quote). There's also a difference between being direct and being uncivil. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 01:25, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Since Clovermoss rode in accusing Fastily of assuming bad faith, I'm pretty sympathetic to Fastily's response. I'm not seeing an ANI issue here, except perhaps a trout to both parties. If Clovermoss doesn't like getting salty responses, Clovermoss shouldn't prompt them. Grandpallama (talk) 01:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's salty to say that you're concerned about inappropriate deletions. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe when it's done in good faith, no. But that's not what you did, or how. Grandpallama (talk) 05:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand why you think it's not possible for me to have done all of this in good faith. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 05:15, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Probably because of the lack of good faith behavior exhibited at that discussion. Grandpallama (talk) 05:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Clovermoss isn't the person calling attention to the responses so I'm not sure why If Clovermoss doesn't like getting salty responses is part of your response. Both Clovermoss and Fathoms Below were civil in their comments on User talk:Fastily. And that discussion was not the first time Clovermoss tried to express her concern about the deletions to Fastily. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 02:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Bullshit. Clovermoss opened the discussion by scolding Fastily and then with their first reply, implied bad faith behavior on Fastily's part from the outset. That's neither particularly civil nor especially constructive. This disingenuous "I don't know why Fastily reacted like they did" nonsense is insulting to anyone who reads that exchange. The fact that one of Clovermoss's choice examples is a glaringly obvious hoax should be so embarrassing as to make them rethink this thread. Grandpallama (talk) 05:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

From the perspective of an uninvolved observer, your comments in this discussion read as hostile and combative. I recommend you tone it down a bit. genderBiohazard (talk) 23:08, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I concur. TheWikiToby (talk) 23:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

And I strongly recommend you gain more experience onwiki before making recommendations to other editors pointing out serious concerns with a false narrative. Grandpallama (talk) 00:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I guess Fastily should learn from mistakes he recently occurred. Ahri Boy (talk) 00:19, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't intend to overstep my boundaries as a newcomer and I apologize if I've slighted you in some way. It is not my place to comment regarding the main topic of this discussion. I was merely suggesting that you remain civil in your responses. genderBiohazard (talk) 02:38, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Heated =/= uncivil. Grandpallama (talk) 03:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe you should tone down the heat then. Opening up a reply with Bullshit is pretty aggressive. Saying that Clovers's statements is nonsense and that they should be embarrass[ed] does not help maintain a "pleasant editing environment" from the first paragraph of WP:CIVILITY. TheWikiToby (talk) 04:39, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I would call your responses both heated and uncivil. -- asilvering (talk) 15:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

And I would counter that there is an increasingly troubling trend at enwiki that attempts to equate "people saying things I don't like" with "uncivil". This thread showcases a serious double standard at play in the number of editors who are concerned about the incivility of one admin, but who are willing to completely overlook the behavior of the other admin, to the degree that the course of the discussion at Fastily's talkpage has been repeatedly misrepresented and there is now a recall petition for him over events a decade old. I think I've said my piece, but I soundly reject any notion that my comments were in any way uncivil because they called bullshit on bullshit. Grandpallama (talk) 16:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Allow me then to be yet another person to say that your comments have been too hostile and uncivil, and it's not because you're saying things I don't like, it's because of your tone and word choice. Levivich (talk) 17:16, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

That's rich. Grandpallama (talk) 22:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

+1 ... sawyer * he/they * talk 20:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

There is no need to call something bullshit in the first place. How does that maintain a positive editing environment? TheWikiToby (talk) 17:26, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not at all seeing a reason to consider Draft:Patrick Marmion promotional, nor how U5 would apply. There are bits that could be written better (I removed the external link for the surgeon father), but those issues just seem like someone new to writing Wikipedia articles and not knowing the best way to structure biographies. And the subject definitely looks to be notable, I'm finding a number of reviews for a variety of his plays. Silverseren^C 01:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I haven't found the outside coverage that you mention, but the first few sentences describe my general surprise when I read this page. As I said in my response to the newbie: I have undeleted your userpage. I am unsure why Fastily deleted an article draft as not aligned with our goals when writing content is pretty much the entire point of everything. Your draft isn't perfect, but it doesn't have to be. It also isn't so egregiously promotional that another deletion criteria would apply. In later replies, I encouraged them to seek out adequate independent sourcing. A lack of notability is not what U5s are for. Plenty of newbies have no clue that we have standards for this stuff but we should at least give them a chance to figure it out. An improper speedy deletion is going to make it less likely they'll even try. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 04:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Here's just a few example from many options and there's many more besides from those. So notability as a playwright is definitely not in question. I do agree with you completely though. Notable or not, we don't just delete drafts someone is working on by misusing CSDs like U5. Silverseren^C 05:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• User:Pealoei was tagged for G11 but deleted as U5. A two sentence draft about a provincial electricity service belongs in a sandbox, not the user's main page, and would thus be an appropriate U5 deletion under WP:FAKEARTICLE. Considering they were hardblocked a couple hours later for a promotional username, I can only assume it would have qualified for U5 anywhere in userspace (as paid spam rather than a legitimate draft, which wouldn't be considered closely related to Wikipedia's goals). C F A 💬 02:02, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  You're correct on the tagged/criteria deleted under distinction. I don't think this would necessarily count as U5 anywhere else in userspace because it isn't obviously paid spam. I genuinely believe a good faith newbie could write these three sentences: The Provincial Electricity Authority (PEA) (Abrv: กฟภ. RTGS: kofopho; Thai: การไฟฟ้าส่วนภูมิภาค, RTGS: Kan Faifa Suan Phumiphak) is a Thai state enterprise under the Ministry of Interior. Established on 28 September 1960 by the Provincial Electricity Authority Act 1960 (BE 2503, it is currently headed by Chayabol Thitisak. PEA is responsible for providing electricity in 74 provinces in Thailand—all except Bangkok, Samut Prakan, and Nonthaburi)—which are served by the Metropolitan Electricity Authority. But I do appreciate that we're actually having a discussion on all this. That's what I wanted from Fastily, an open and honest discussion on the merits. But instead they doubled down instead of considering that maybe I was right. Silverseren explains what my reaction to that draft was. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:12, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Fastily doesn't delete user pages as G11, no matter what they're tagged as. Like, ever. The six (count 'em!) exceptions since his resysop, compared to 103,304 labelled U5, prove the rule. —Cryptic 02:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yes I would not have deleted that. Secretlondon (talk) 19:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  It's not a U5 anywhere. How is that not plausibly a draft of an article? What does WP:FAKEARTICLE have to do with anything, unless you've somehow come to the conclusion that it was meant to "indefinitely" stay in userspace despite lasting barely seven hours between creation and deletion? What difference does it make that it was created on the base user page, as new users are wont to do, instead of /sandbox or some other subpage, as users who've been editing Wikipedia for decades do? Just what on earth do you think Wikipedia's goals are, if they don't include trying to write articles? —Cryptic 02:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  This was obviously an illegitimate spam draft. Their username was the group they were writing about. Yes, it's theoretically possible it was an innocent newbie who got confused, but that's not very likely, is it? Regardless, deleting "drafts" on the base user page is common practice for a lot of admins. I move them to a subpage unless it's obvious it would qualify for U5 elsewhere, but that's not what everyone does. I think the issue here is with how broadly U5 is able to be interpreted. I would support getting rid of it altogether. C F A 💬 14:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Illegitimate spam drafts are explicitly not deletable as U5, and pages written neutrally are explicitly not deletable as G11. Not even when the sourcing sucks or when the author has a COI as obvious as a Sherman tank. —Cryptic 15:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Where does it say that? Do you think spam is closely related to Wikipedia's goals? C F A 💬 21:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Right on Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#U5. Do you think writing articles is not closely related to Wikipedia's goals? Do you think that would have been deleted if someone had put it in mainspace instead? —Cryptic 22:27, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  "Plausible drafts" ≠ userpage spam. They weren't writing an article — they were just advertising on their user page. The mainspace article exists at Provincial Electricity Authority, which is in fact where the "draft" is copied from. C F A 💬 22:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• I've posted on Fastily's User talk page about U5 page deletions several times over the years. My main complaint is that it doesn't seem to matter what the User page is tagged for (it's frequently G11 and even G12), Fastily always changes the CSD criteria to U5 for some reason.

My other problem involves our patrollers, it seems like some can't abide by any content on User pages. I've seen User pages that just had an editor's name and occupation tagged for CSD U5 speedy deletion and other times there are what are clearly article drafts that have just been mistakenly placed on a User page that are tagged for CSD U5 speedy deletion. In these cases, these drafts should be moved to a Sandbox or Draft space, not tagged for deletion.

I think there is fundamental vagueness on what "webhost content" consists of because, to me, it means content that should be placed on an editor's personal blog or website, not article drafts or a simple bit of biographical information which is explicitly allowed to be present on User pages. But, like I said, this involves educating our patrollers, not just admins who review these pages. But, honestly, I've stopped reviewing pages in the CSD U5 Candidates category because I found myself untagging pages because I thought the taggings were inappropriate. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Mentioning "web host" in WP:U5's section header is very probably the worst wording ever to deface WP:CSD; it doesn't appear anywhere in the actual text of the criterion except for the matching template and category name. I've joked for years that we should just replace the text of U5 with "Any page in the User: namespace written by someone without enough social capital to get anywhere when they complain after you speedy it". Because the implication about it applying to new users - sometimes not even specifically "has made few or no edits outside of user pages", like the criterion reads - seems to be the only part people pay attention to, and policy is supposed to be descriptive, right? —Cryptic 03:32, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

As for User:PresidentOttoBraun/sandbox, it is really astonishing to me that an administrator would not immediately recognize with one or two clicks, that Gideon Blackburn did not win the 1816 United States presidential election. Blackburn existed but was not a politician but rather a religious and educator figure. The winning candidate was James Monroe, of course, who won an overwhelming landslide victory. Similarly, the losing candidate was not John Henry Miller, who also existed but died in 1782. The actual losing candidate was Rufus King who is not remembered much these days, but was a prominent American patriot of that era who was a member of the Continental Congress, a United States Senator and later ambassador to the United Kingdom. So, this sandbox was a blatant hoax that fooled the reporting adminstrator. Some people generously call such hoaxes alternate history but Wikipedia is not a platform for hosting deceptive forms of fiction and I will support any adminstrator who quickly deletes such obviously inappropriate garbage content. Cullen328 (talk) 03:49, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

If it were at least labeled as a hoax instead of "U5" then administrators - and anybody else, even without viewdeleted - would be able to recognize it without even those one or two clicks. —Cryptic 04:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Erm... Not all administrators are Americans. – robertsky (talk) 10:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Are you talking about this discussion? [51] Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 04:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

No, Clovermoss, I was unaware of that discussion. I am talking about the fact that in this case, you failed to detect that the deleted page was utter hallucinatory bullshit and instead chose to benignly describe it as a draft about a historical election when it was the exact opposite of that. Fretting at ANI about which precise CSD tag should be used to delete clearly inappropriate content seems like a poor use of all of our time. To be clear, I agree that some of Fastily's comments were overly prickly and I encourage that editor to be more careful with their phrasing and interactions. Cullen328 (talk) 05:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

And which CSD criteria should be used to delete the obviously notable draft of Draft:Patrick Marmion that Fastily attempted to get rid of and which is the actual originating article topic for this discussion in the first place, which you haven't addressed at all, Cullen? Silverseren^C 05:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

He doesn't need to. I concur that I may have been heavy handed here and I thank you for providing the references above. I usually do some cursory research on any page before deleting, but I clearly missed the mark here. Thanks for pointing that out. -Fastily 06:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) My response was to Liz in this instance, since she brought up talking to Fastily about her concerns and I wanted to make sure I found the right discussion. I realize now that specific example (and not the main focus of what went wrong here) is a hoax, but it would've been slightly easier to realize that if it was deleted under the proper criteria. I'm not American and my general instinct towards newbies creating drafts on historical elections is that they're probably not lying about who won. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 05:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Clovermoss, I am aware that you are from the north side of the Niagara River but when you say that your general instinct towards newbies creating drafts on historical elections is that they're probably not lying about who won, that was obviously wrong in this case, and is probably a gullible attitude that you should reconsider. I admit that I am an American political junkie and immediately saw this as a hoax, but this draft had obvious indicators of fraud, such as piped wikilinks to entirely different people, and mention of alternate history in file names. You should do a modicum of verification before using a draft like this as an example of misconduct by another administrator. That's my view at least, but I also believe that you are usually a good administrator. Cullen328 (talk) 06:06, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

This specific example was a mistake, yes. I just don't want it to overshadow the larger concerns here. As for elections, I'm mostly used to seeing people write about obscure elections that don't have articles when it's something like the 1800s, so it didn't raise as much of a red flag to me as it did to you, especially given the other U5 concerns. I was also using the "view diff" and preview feature of the last revision instead of looking at the source code directly. I will definitely keep your feedback in mind for the future, as those are good tells to watch out for. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 06:10, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• Admins should absolutely not be telling people to "get off my talk page" for raising legitimate concerns. That's really disappointing behaviour. AusLondonder (talk) 04:05, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Fastily didn't tell Clovermoss to get off their page for raising a legitimate concern. They told Clovermoss to get off their page after Clovermoss accused them of assuming the worst faith possible. Grandpallama (talk) 05:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Assuming that someone's completely normal draft made by a new editor is "SEO spam" is "assuming the worst faith possible". Silverseren^C 05:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  That "completely normal draft" reeks of COI and SEO. Clovermoss is the one who created this situation as a result of engaging with a deliberately combative and provocative approach. Fastily asked for explanations, civilly, which were not provided. Grandpallama (talk) 06:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  So, to you, "deliberately combative and provocative" is saying I hope this is just an oversight but if so, please be more careful. Speedy deleting article drafts as U5 can be bitey? If yes, then I question your judgement on what "combative" means in every scenario. Silverseren^C 06:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Starting with the assumption that Fastily had made an error and warning him is combative, yes. You are questioning my judgment? You are the one defending as perfectly kosher the article about Patrick from Bristol written by... Bristlepaddy. Yeah, no red flags there... Grandpallama (talk) 11:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Not criticising or making personal attacks, just want to point out, but I've experienced the same thing. Unfortunately, Fastily seems to not be very civil towards users. Once on his talk page, he replied to me What exactly are you hoping to achieve by coming here and continuing to complain? I'm literally not your therapist. Wikipedia is a collaborative project, you're not the only one who edits here. So yeah, you should expect to receive constructive criticism from time to time. If that's too much for you to handle, then it's high time for you to find a hobby that that doesn't involve Wikipedia. I know plenty of editors (admins included) who are on the spectrum but don't use their disability as an excuse to justify incompetence and/or bad behavior. Knock it off. in October 2024. Since he is an admin, he should know better than this. PEPSI697 (💬 • 📝) 04:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

As for User:Pealoei, I am the administrator who blocked that editor for "promotional username, promotional edits", and I stand by that block. I believe that poorly referenced content directly related to a blocked promotional username ought to be deleted. Personally, except in the most blatant cases, I do not myself delete content created by editors with overtly promotional usernames. I believe that "two administrators are better than one" in such situations, and I am very happy that other administrators like Fastily are willing to clean up such messes. Cullen328 (talk) 05:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Since PEPSI697 is bringing up something posted on Fastily's user talk page, I think it's probably a good idea to provide a link to the relevant discussions to add context. It started when PEPSI697 requested to be granted Rollback rights, didn't like Fastily's response and then decided to remove Fastily's response from the the page basically saying it didn't count. PEPSI697 than posted about the matter here on Fastily's user talk page. The next day PEPES697 started a new thread about the matter on Fastily's talk page here, and then started Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1237#Can somebody please help me - I don't feel safe here about 20 minutes later. So, it's important to understand the entire context of things leading up to that Fastily post. PEPSI697 has sort of a disclaimer posted at the top of their user talk page, which is fine I guess for their user talk page; however, Fastily's response to their Rollback request was none of those things and seemed perfectly fine per WP:TPG. Moreover, PEPSI697 doesn't really get to apply their own conditions to posts made by others on community talk pages/noticeboards and doesn't get to remove posts made by others just because they're "sensitive" to criticism. I don't mean to try and derail what's being discussed here, and I'm not trying to make light of users who have ASD; I do, however, think it's important to understand the context of what PEPSI697 is quoting above. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up. However, I'm not really thinking strongly about the rollback request "incident" for the moment and haven't worried about it for a month now. It has been all good since about 3 October 2024. Thanks. PEPSI697 (💬 • 📝) 08:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

You're claiming that everything is all good, but you're trying to use this "incident" as an example of poor behavior by Fastily without even seeming to consider that it was your inappropriate behavior that started things. Your removal of Fastily's comment and statement that it didn't count was wrong and this was pointed out to you on his article talk page. You could've simply apologized to Fastily for removing the post at that point and that would've probably been received positively. Instead, you continued to post on his user talk page about how he was making you feel unsafe and that you didn't want to get blocked/banned, and then continued the same discussion at the Teahouse. You were doing all of this before Fastily had even responded to your first post; so, it's not hard to understand why he responded the way he did. Several of the posts you received at the Teahouse even pointed out the fault lied with you, but you still seem to think otherwise and still seem to think that your behavior wasn't an issue. -- Marchjuly (talk) 12:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

See this discussion I made last Wednesday. I've apologised for the actions I did if you didn't see it. What I mean by "all good" is that I haven't thought strongly or worried about it. Thanks. PEPSI697 (💬 • 📝) 21:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Your apology thread was archived and I didn't see it; so, my apologies to you for saying you didn't apologize. However, you still felt the need to bring up this "incident" here again even though you and Fastily apparently worked things out amicably, which seems a bit odd to me. -- Marchjuly (talk) 20:18, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• Just wanted to comment that you probably should have just kept the discussion to the very inappropriate responses by Fastily on their talk page (and not just to you, but many others over time) and the Marmion draft's obviously inappropriate deletion attempt, Clovermoss, instead of bringing up other deletions. There is a long-standing tendency by many at ANI to obfuscate a discussion to avoid the actual topic brought up and instead go into long tangents about any minor inaccuracy that can be pointed out to prevent that primary topic from being addressed. As many are doing up above with things like the hoax election article. Silverseren^C 05:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Silver seren: Who specifically are you talking to? Just curious as there are lots of users in this thread here. PEPSI697 (💬 • 📝) 05:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Anyone who is not addressing the actual Fastily talk page discussion raised by Clovermoss that is the reason for this thread and/or not discussing the actual draft at issue that was inappropriately deleted. Anyone who is trying to harp about the hoax election draft or the electrical facility draft without actually making mention of the aforementioned topic of discussion is just derailing from the subject matter so it doesn't get addressed. Which is very common in ANI threads. Hence why I suggested just above that Clovermoss should have just focused on the former when making the report to not give leeway for such derailment to be done by others. It's unfortunate that such things are necessary, but past experience in threads here has shown me that it is. Any form of minor inaccuracy or misstatement in one's filing of a thread here, no matter how inconsequential it is to the topic being presented, will be frequently used as a method to prevent the main topic from being addressed. Silverseren^C 06:02, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Silverseren, personally, I have already advised Fastily that I agree that some of Fastily's comments were overly prickly and I encourage that editor to be more careful with their phrasing and interactions. But the hoax election draft example and the COI electrical utility draft example were two of the four examples of the alleged misconduct raised by Clovermoss. Are you arguing that the weakness of these two examples should have no effect on this conversation? Cullen328 (talk) 06:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  I'm saying they aren't the reason for this thread, the draft discussed on the talk page and the biting of a newbie who wrote a perfectly fine article is. Hence why I suggested above that Clovermoss probably shouldn't have included those other examples as they would inevitably derail from discussion of that issue. Since if Fastily is going to claim that that draft is "SEO spam", then I question their capability to analyze other such drafts and also question whether they have been driving away a number of other new editors trying to honestly contribute to Wikipedia. Silverseren^C 06:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  It's quite possible I'm missing this within the wall of text, but may I ask what you think is wrong with the utility draft example? I still think someone here in good faith could easily write that and that's what matters. That making a mistake like this has an invisible cost, not that I'm immune to somehow not impacting others with my own decisions. Anyways, I really should go to bed (it's quite late) for now. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 06:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  I assume just because they had a COI username that matched the name of the utility company. I agree that that's not a reason why they can't make a draft for a notable company. Just that there should be more scrutiny for that. Silverseren^C 06:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Agreed. I will say the "User:Pealoei" standing for "Provincial Electricity Authority" is a bit more subtle than what I usually encounter. I have deleted some spam myself and usually only do it in the most blatant of cases. Those three sentences, even from a COI editor, are mostly neutral. They could've theoretically submitted that as an AfC draft even if it would've been rightly declined for a lack of sourcing. But I don't think deleting it as a U5 is under the spirit of the criteria. It's possible I'm wrong, but I'd rather err on the side of caution, and that's definitely not my read of things. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 06:48, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Here is where we have a fundamental disagreement. In my opinion, any poorly referenced draft created by an account whose username represents the subject of that draft is inherently and fundamentally promotional. Hypothical User: QRS is incapable of creating a neutral, well referenced draft about QRS Corporation 99.99% of the time, and the exceptions to that rule ought to be enshrined in a very special Wikipedia museum that does not yet exist. Any human being conversant with our policies and guidelines would have selected a different different usename, and if they didn't for whatever reason, they could make a thoughtful request to change their username, accompanied by a fulsome promise to follow all of our Polices and guidelines, indicating where they went wrong. That did not happen in this specific case. Cullen328 (talk) 07:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

As it happens, I agree these should be speedies. (I even consider it a feature, not a bug, that "other" social media - and these users do consider Wikipedia social media - has taught them to inadvertently disclose their COIs by naming their accounts after the company that's paying them.) But the community doesn't permit individual administrators to delete pages like these on their own recognizance. It permits individual admins to delete user pages about "writings, information, discussions, or activities not closely related to Wikipedia's goals" with the explicit exception - as if trying to write articles weren't one of our primary goals, but only vaguely connected! - of anything that looks like a draft; and it permits individual admins to delete pages that that are exclusively promotional, again with an explicit, redundant exception that "Any article that describes its subject from a neutral point of view does not qualify for this criterion". Intent, even when obvious, doesn't enter into it, or else we'd have a whole lot fewer mainspace hagiographies about Kazakhstanian businessmen. —Cryptic 11:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with lots of what's been said above. It's important that folks responsible for speedy deletions have an opportunity to discuss how each of us might apply these criteria in real time. I've been working the speedy list myself recently. Draft space is maintained as place for development, and I've performed some G11s in egregious cases. It's obvious that even trusted servants will disagree, but in this case, I'm agreeing with Cullen328's and Cryptic's statements immediately above. I would have deleted these myself. Perhaps I would have been in error. But such choices are well within my trust of any other sysop. This thread is an unfortunate overreaction and shouldn't end, IMHO, with action against Fastily. BusterD (talk) 12:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I didn't see the attempt at an article as blatant promotion, especially if they're a governmental body, which means the block should have been a softblock for a username that represents an organization (in this case the Provincial Electricity Authority in Loei, I assume). That said, I've made a lot of deletions and username blocks so I'm sure there would be some borderline cases other editors and admins would disagree with. Differences in judgement are expected, but WP:ADMINCOND calls for civil discussion of our administrative actions which isn't quite what we saw here. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• And now we have a petition for Admin recall against Fastily, based mostly on stuff that happened 10 years ago. This is freakin' awesome! BusterD (talk) 12:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Historical information was presented to provide context and establish a pattern. I put the petition itself forward due to concerns with how they were handling themselves today, and whether or not that was in the spirit of WP:ADMINACCT. I sincerely apologise if it appeared to be based on the 6 previous ANI threads surrounding Fastily's deletion-related conduct. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 13:08, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Several admins including myself have come to the conclusion that there's nothing actionable in the above thread. So you have that, and six ANI threads each going back before the editor's return. BusterD (talk) 13:16, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Several admins including myself have come to the conclusion that there's nothing actionable in the above thread

  Yes, I noticed. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 13:32, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, that was alarming to read, and that's why we have recall now. Levivich (talk) 14:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• There's an WP:ADMINACCT/WP:CIV issue and a deletion-related issue here, and they're both harder to resolve when taken together. On the behavioral side, I think a lot of this case may have been fueled by a simple misunderstanding (I think Fastily may have perceived Clover's "that's assuming the worst faith possible" about that one draft as instead a broader judgment on their deletions and/or a denial that we should ever see things as spam, and responding to that in an overly defensive manner). Maybe I'm wrong. Regardless, the exchange with Clovermoss and a couple other examples above give us enough to resolve that part of the discussion with a trout or formalized reminder or something. Regarding deletions, I find Tamzin's and Liz's comments/evidence most concerning as they point to patterns rather than examples. Specifically, that it doesn't seem like Fastily declines many U5s, sometimes changes CSD tags, and carries out deletions at a speed where it would be impossible to fully evaluate the content. Whether someone should switch tags seems like a subject for a different forum, which leaves us with the classic problem of how to effectively evaluate deletions of an admin who has made 634,791 of them. Fastily has donated an awful lot of volunteer time focusing on deletion, so we'd really need pattern-level evidence or a good sized sample. If people want to go that route, I'd recommend closing the behavioral issue and creating a subsection to focus on evidence. Personally, I think I'd be fine just deprecating U5. Spam, historical fiction, etc. already fit under various G-type speedy criteria, and I agree with some others that we make it too easy to delete newbies' drafts, practice sandboxes, notes, wikimarkup experiments, etc. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Rhododendrites I'd support deprecating U5, or at the very least making an explicit carve-out that the criterion doesn't apply to sandboxes. -- asilvering (talk) 18:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  What about the records of someone's fantasy football league? That isn't a hoax, isn't promotion, isn't vandalism, but it also isn't anything to do with Wikipedia. I've always seem U5 as the NOTHERE of user page CSDs. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  I guess I just don't see what's so urgent about that that it needs summary deletion. Would I delete that if U5'd (and not in a sandbox) right now? Yeah, sure, I believe it fits the criteria. Do I think it was worth the time for someone to tag it and for someone else to delete it? No, not really. -- asilvering (talk) 18:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Maybe it would be more clear-cut if the records of the fantasy football league were just placed in the sandbox, someone didn't edit it for how many months and the user left, and another user tagged it for deletion after discovering it. Deprecating U5 might have the unintended consequence of flooding MfD with nominations like these, but just a hypothetical. Anyway, this is beginning to get out of scope of ANI. Fathoms Below (talk) 18:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  If we're talking about a user that's WP:HERE, I don't see why another user doesn't have something better to do than digging through userspaces looking for 0-views silliness to delete. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:59, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Rhododendrites eh, lots of accounts with not that many edits start out with small things like fixing typos and then they might experiment in the sandbox since they're new, not knowing exactly the purpose of the sandbox since PAGs are hard to learn at the start. Another user might find the sandbox among the first user's contributions by accident after said user is long-gone, since they saw the person fixing typos or doing something else and looked at their contributions page. I wouldn't automatically assume people would be searching out for pages like these but this hypothetical might be a bit of a stretch. Fathoms Below (talk) 19:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Are we talking about someone who's only here to make fantasy football pages in their userspace? If so, that's a behavioral issue and they should be blocked per WP:HERE. If we're instead talking about a good faith contributor, I have no trouble viewing some random userspace page with fantasy football information as either a place to experiment with wikimarkup, tables, templates, etc. or as falling into the leeway we tend to provide good faith editors to include some personal detail in their own userspace. If the context is unclear, what is so urgent about such a page that it needs to be not just deleted but speedy deleted? This is, in part, what I'm saying about U5 -- it's rare there's a clear-cut case such that speedy is called for but not covered by other criteria or by WP:HERE. More often than not it's just someone's random nonpromotional inoffensive sandbox, where we don't stand to gain anything in exchange for the user demotivation upon deleting a page almost nobody would ever see if they weren't looking for NOTWEBHOST violations in other people's userspace. YMMV. All this said, there's probably a better place to argue about U5 in general (my fault). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:59, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  People already ignore, almost universally, the existing carve-out for drafts (let alone plausible drafts). What makes you think they wouldn't do the same for a new carve-out for sandboxes? —Cryptic 19:15, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Maybe we should just have admins follow the rules? I'm really confused that I've just randomly stumbled across this discovery that what's written and what's enforced can be dramatically different. I don't like it. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:20, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  The rules are supposed to be descriptive, not prescriptive. If it turns out that everyone is ignoring this it is the policy that needs to change to reflect the reality. MrOllie (talk) 19:27, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  We haze prospective admins for a week and get pissed at them if they draftify too many articles, but if admins ignore the explicit carve-outs in CSD criteria that's... just to be expected? -- asilvering (talk) 23:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  If I came across as if I thought this were a good thing, it wasn't intended. My point was that this isn't a problem with the criterion; it's a problem with the people applying the criterion, and changing the criterion won't make them apply it any better. —Cryptic 23:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• I think Rhododendrites makes a good point regarding the importance of looking at reasonably large samples when evaluating the conduct of highly active admins (since even a below-average error rate will create a large number of errors if applied often enough). This also seemed like a good opportunity to procrastinate on actual work, so I drew a random sample from a subset of this query (which looks for deletions by Fastily whose summaries match \bU5\b). Specifically, I recoded the summaries to indicate whether deletions happened solely under U5 or under U5 and another deletion criterion, subset the data to the time range between 2024-01-01 and 2024-10-04 today, (pseudo)randomly drew 300 deletions, and dumped the result to a wikitable. The table is at Special:Permalink/1255380976 Special:Permalink/1255383709, if someone wants to look through. I'm also happy to rerun my script with a different sample size or time range, if desired. --Blablubbs (talk) 17:37, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  (ec) Edit: I realised that I had unintentionally set the wrong end date (4 October instead of 4 November), so I've fixed that and repeated the process. --Blablubbs (talk) 17:44, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for doing this. Despite my concerns, I don't necessarily have it "out" for Fastily, I really just want to make sure my concerns are not indicative of a way larger problem. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 17:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Blablubbs, I'm just curious, what was the pool size of User page deletions that this subset of 300 was taken from? I wonder about the total number of CSD U5s over a period of 10 months. By the way, I forked your query and am running it on my own page deletions and it is still running. I might not have gotten the code written correctly. Maybe if you have a second, I could get your opinion on it. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:03, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  Liz, the total for 2024 was 16371. The overall total from the quarry is 103310. Here's a table. Re the Quarry: I'm by no means an expert (I cobbled it together by from existing queries by Cryptic), but if all you did was switch out the actor_name, it should run just fine. It's tough to say more without knowing what exactly you're referring to, though. Since this thread is already ballooning somewhat, it might be best to take that elsewhere, though. --Blablubbs (talk) 01:25, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  I use Quarry throughout the day but most of my queries were written by other editors. You're right though, this is off-topic, I'll ask you on your User talk page.

But on the subject of CSD U5s, I have raised the question at WT:CSD in the past over its liberal overuse and misinterpretation (including one embarrassing discussion where I keep referring to it by G5, not U5) but if our patrollers used their tagging skills to reevaluate the User pages of our senior editors, many of them would be tagged for CSD U5 as they contain biographical content that is not directly related to their editing work. There is very, very little tolerance towards new editors who have any biographical content on their User pages. Since most new editors think of their User page as a profile page, let's just say that I think the vast majority of these pages are tagged for speedy deletion as soon as they are spotted by a patroller. In instances where it is a CV, I agree but in most cases, the content is harmless. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:48, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

There's an overenthusiastic patrolling of user space, imo. I've seen a lot of U5s that were clearly attempts at drafting articles which just need moving to a subpage, but I get pushback from patrollers declining these sufficiently often that, tbh, I've started to pass on them. I don't recall it particularly, but I seem to have looked at User:Pealoei and failed to decline it. Espresso Addict (talk) 04:22, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Sounds to me like there needs to be action taken in regards to the patroller community as a whole if they are consistently bad at the task when it comes to user pages. Enough so that multiple admins and editors have brought up this being a long-standing issue. Silverseren^C 04:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

That is so good to read, Espresso Addict. I thought it was just me. I rarely review the CSD U5 category when I look at CSD-tagged pages because I was removing taggings I thought were inappropriate and some patrollers came to me protesting. I get enough complaints on my User talk page already so I just don't review U5s. I think admins patrolling CSD categories are outnumbered by patrollers and it is harder to change their behavior than adapt our own. If I think it is egregious mistagging, I will post a message to a particular patroller but I think, in general, the judgment on U5s is just overboard. These taggings are sometimes warranted but in most cases, I don't think so. And it is especially bothersome because it affects brand new editors more than veteran editors. Very BITEy. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:36, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree that it is extremely, extremely bitey. I see so many U5s that are just... drafts. The taggers could simply move the thing to draft! -- asilvering (talk) 15:48, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Comment re Blablubb's even a below-average error rate will create a large number of errors if applied often enough point. This comes up quite a bit with very active editors, but I'm not convinced that 'number of errors' is a useful measurement in all contexts. Whether it's an admin responding to speedy tags, non-admin patrollers working the recent changes queue, NPP reviewers looking at new articles, AfC reviewers, or whatever: if you have a queue of things that require action, and a pool of people who respond to the items in the queue, it's the error rate of the individuals in that queue that determines the number of errors that will be made (which is what we should be interested in, rather than who made them). If ten people with an error rate of 5% work the queue, they will collectively make more errors than if a single person with an error rate of 3% does the same work; that single very competent person will rack up far more errors as an individual than any of the ten less competent ones however, and may end up copping a disproportionate amount of flak as a result. Girth Summit _(blether) 10:44, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Girth Summit: Yes, that's what I was trying to say – hence my support for looking at samples. --Blablubbs (talk) 17:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Apoliogies - I've reread your post and it's clearer to me that that was exactly what you were saying. I must have misinterpreted it the first time, I think we're in agreement. Girth Summit _(blether) 21:43, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

---

Taken a few days to reflect. Lately I've been under tremendous stress/pressure IRL and that's made me much more irritable than usual, so I apologize to anyone that I may have offended. Not that it's an excuse or anything, but I'll make an effort to watch my rhetoric more closely and recuse myself from situations where I might be tempted to break WP:CIV. I also see concerns about the way I'm handling U5/G11, so I'll stop handling these and take a very conservative approach towards them should I resume activity in this area in the future. -Fastily 17:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Glad to hear it, @Fastily, and I'm really sorry to hear about the rl pressure. Hope it lets up. Luckily, we've got a whole new set of brand-new admins who can take over on the CSDs. :) -- asilvering (talk) 19:19, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Fastily, I'm sure this process hasn't helped with that real-life stress. I think this statement is a good start. I know most of the issues I brought up were about the U5 criteria and how it is applied and it looks like we might be having a discussion on that subject now. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Note: I have started a proposal at the Village Pump idea lab that attempts to reduce the volume of inappropriate user pages needing patrolling. It may be hare-brained (which is why it's at the idea lab), but I have some hope it'll help — rsjaffe 🗣️ 20:03, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

General comment

Doesn't it seem counterproductive to have two discussions about the essentially the same thing simultaneously taking place at two different places? Since the recall petition against Fastily is required to be open for 30 days, maybe this one should be closed. There's a lot of overlapping of participants and comments which seems (at least to me) as being unnecessary. If an administrator feels sanctioning Fastily over what is described above is warranted, then perhaps such a thing should done sooner than later. Letting the discussion go on until it ends up being archived due to inactivity seems (again at least to me) pointless. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:15, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Legal threats on talk page

Threatens legal action after having edits reverted. Their edits were to say "xyx does not work here". Without any evidence of if they do or do not. It isn't correct to state where the article subject does not work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:147.188.251.161 - User https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Dennis - Page in question Sir Nuttingham (talk) 18:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Blocked. 331dot (talk) 18:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

The IP doesn't know how to go about editing here, but I think they're onto something with regards to that article. The BCRRE website does not indicate that Dennis is a member of staff. His personal website lists BCRRE amongst the places he has taught at; it's possible he taught there at some point in the past but is no longer affiliated. I've tweaked the wording slightly. Girth Summit _(blether) 19:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• I think we may have a notability problem with Gareth Dennis. The article is essentially a resume + his resignation after pissing off some bigwig. EEng 19:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Looks like WP:BIO1E to me. Northern Moonlight 20:06, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  If there was such a thing as WP:BIO0E, that might fit even better. Since the subject himself has edited the article recently, it's a fair bet every source that might be useful is already in there. I'm under tremendous IRL pressure just now so I'll have to leave this to others, but an AfD seems in order. EEng 21:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  EEng#s, I hope that pressure has eased up on you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:41, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  Well, Liz, I guess it can finally be revealed that in RL I'm actually Kamala Harris. Perhaps that explains some things in retrospect e.g. getting blocked on July 22 was the cornerstone of my staff's calculated plan to give me more free time to clinch the nomination. (A quick shout-out to Levivich for finessing that so perfectly. He'll be Secretary of State. Tryptofish will be commander of Moonbase Zappa.)

  So anyway, yes, the pressure will be easing up soon, at least until January.

  And remember: to reduce crowding at the polls, registered Democrats are being asked to vote on November 5; Republicans should vote on November 6. May the best candidate win! EEng 02:30, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  I guess it would take a lot more pressure than a presidential election for you to lose your sense of humor, EEng. I mean, Kamala. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:01, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  Uh oh. I just realized we're not on the secure channel. EEng 11:26, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  I nominated it at AfD, we'll see what others think. You must be very tired, I hope things go well for you today. Girth Summit _(blether) 11:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  I'm just stopping by to wish EEng well in the ongoing election. Now, I have to go back to having a nervous breakdown while waiting for the election results to come in. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:18, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

SPAs POV-pushing in The Keys to the White House

Summary: The major dispute in this article, concerning an election prediction system, is how to approach whether the 2016 prediction ("Trump wins") was correct, as some sources state, or incorrect, as others state (because Trump lost the popular vote). The neutral version reports both sides of the argument. Three SPAs keep reverting to a version that endorses one side and imputes dishonesty to a living person (the system's co-creator, Allan Lichtman).

Urgency: We can expect heavy editing of this article as the results of this week's election become known. Editors who come to the article should be able to work with a suitably NPOV version. It would be great if this could be resolved quickly.

The SPAs: The basic problem is that there are three SPAs that are fervently hostile to Lichtman. User:Apprentice57 had one edit in 2007 and one in 2019, then beginning in June 2024 made numerous edits, all of them related to this article or Lichtman's bio. User:Tomcleontis and User:Caraturane began editing in June 2024 and have primarily edited these two articles and their Talk pages. All three were pushing a then-recent blog post critical of Lichtman, which they wanted to cite. In particular, they have examined the competing views about 2016 and decided that one side has the better case, so they insist on a version of the article that adopts that side in Wikipedia's voice (e.g., Lichtman's "claim is not supported by his books and papers from 2016....").

Dispute resolution 1 -- Talk page: I have spent a huge amount of time on the Talk page trying to explain WP:NPOV to these comparative newcomers. They persist in their view that one side is so clearly right that there is no dispute. Multiple sources credit 2016 as a correct prediction. The SPAs, however, refuse to acknowledge these sources and assert that there is no dispute. For example, Caraturane wrote: "For the record, Lichtman is not being accused of making false statements. He has reportedly, on multiple occasions, made false statements." On that basis they will not accept any NPOV version. Also participating in the discussion were two other new accounts, Hangways1 with two lifetime edits, agreeing with the SPAs, and 2A00:23C5:11E:F901:C0EE:D9DA:EB5C:31AC with four lifetime edits, taking a more mixed approach.

Dispute resolution 2 -- RfC: After getting nowhere on the Talk page, I began an RfC. Unfortunately, only one experienced, uninvolved editor (Classicfilms) weighed in. She agreed with me that my version was more neutral. The non-neutral version was supported by the three SPAs and by 2.101.10.150, who began editing in October 2024, when this dispute was brewing, and has made four edits. Another experienced editor, LittleJerry, didn't join the RfC, but edited the article to remove the most obvious POV (although his edits were reverted, first by Apprentice57 and then by Caraturane). I reinstated a neutral version, but was reverted. Tomcleontis justified this position by saying, "The outright majority of editors said no." (Of course, it's not a majority-vote process.)

Dispute resolution 3 -- BLP Noticeboard: I made another try at getting more opinions by starting a thread on the BLP Noticeboard. The SPAs adhered to their POV, with Tomcleontis stating that the three had "reached the conclusion that [Lichtman] has been inconsistent or dishonest about it...." This makes the NPOV violation pretty clear. Again, only one experienced editor weighed in, with notwally agreeing that my version was more neutral.

The current situation: Based on the unanimous agreement of every experienced editor, I again reinstated a more neutral version. Apprentice57 reverted 20 minutes later. (My version is more neutral throughout. The "Criticism" section is balanced by "Support". In particular, I created a subsection to present both sides of the 2016 dispute.) Thus, the article is still in clear violation of WP:NPOV and WP:BLP.

Relief requested: The three SPAs have persistently engaged in disruptive editing, by pushing their own POV about Allan Lichtman and the Keys. I request that all three -- Apprentice57, Tomcleontis, and Caraturane -- be article-banned from both articles. Admins should note that the contentious topics procedures apply to the Keys article. JamesMLane t c 20:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't have time to get into this again and have tried to step back to let neutral parties comment. I don't appreciate the incredibly biased way these facts have been presented. Several editors, not just three of us, have been concerned about the page and your proposed edits and it has by no means been unanimous. In fact, the majority of editors did not support your proposals; we've all acted in good faith to find compromise and to try to step away when things were getting heated, only to wake up to email alerts about a new noticeboard posting, your unilateral edits, and now this. We are not hostile to anyone, but are cognizant of Lichtman's repeated attempts to act in bad faith to attack journalists and/or critics mentioned on the pages; to remove material critical of him; and to employ his own family members and fan base to edit his page (as the talk page details at length).

Your incident post here does not mention the reputable news organizations which have all written at length about the dispute in question but cites opinion pieces with single lines about his record, and which are cited (along with Lichtman's own words). These organizations have reported about the dispute not about his record, and are thus more useful in evaluating the dispute. I also fail to see how citing Lichtman's own paper and book which are contradictory to his public statements and definitely contradict what he has said is a point of view by Wikipedia editors.

I implore the Wikipedia administrators to do their diligence concerning how these disputes have gone on on these talk pages, as I am sure they will, as I just don't have the time to go one by one through this and was really hopeful we could take a breather. No one here has been engaged in disruptive editing, nor is there a desire by anyone to make this their sole focus (it just so happens this has concerned way too much time arguing about), but it seems that calling for us all to be banned from editing is an incredibly dramatic and uncalled for step, more reflective of your own frustration with contradictory information and insight than any of our bad faith efforts. I have personally worked with you, JamesMLane, in good faith, to inquire about editorial standards of a news organization you felt did not comply; to ask people to take a break after weeks or arguing; and to find compromise language for the Allan Lichtman page itself. Nor have I edited anything (or even paid attention to the dispute) in a week, so I am frustrated to see this pop up now. Caraturane (talk) 20:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I was tagged here as a very fresh editor who joined the discussion, so I thought I'd share my perspective. There's obviously a ton of argument around the article, but the key thrust seemed (to me) to be whether or not Allan Lichtman predicted that Trump would win the popular vote or the electoral college in 2016.

I happen to own a copy of the book Allan Lichtman published that year ("Predicting the Next President: The Keys to the White House 2016") which didn't seem to have been discussed; probably because it isn't easily available for purchase anymore. There is a very clear section at the start of that book where Allan specifies that not only do the keys only predict the popular vote (phrasing his), but that he is aware of several years where the electoral college winner diverges from the popular vote winner—and that for those years, he designed the keys to predict the popular vote winner. We obviously had a similar split in 2016.

My two comments on that talk page were solely agreeing with other editors that were aware that Allan had made a popular vote prediction in 2016.

I didn't advocate for any particular POV to be taken or any particular phrasing. Similarly, I didn't advocate for the dispute to be included in or excluded from the article. (For what it's worth, there's no doubt the fact is disputed—there are a lot of articles claiming Allan only made an electoral college prediction in 2016. 'Dispute' is an easy bar to clear!) More experienced editors than I can identify the best way to communicate all this.

But Allan wrote a very clear book in 2016 that quite specifically states he is predicting the popular vote and clarifies exactly what the keys predict in situations like what we got in 2016. That does resolve, I think, a lot of the disagreement over the factual basis of the dispute, and I'd certainly hope there's a way for the article to include that text if the dispute is going to be covered. It would be frankly bizarre for the article to present a dozen articles of people arguing back-and-forth about what Allan predicted in 2016, and tiptoe carefully in language around it... and yet decline to include the passage in Allan's 2016 book where he specifically clarifies this matter. I don't think it's pushing a POV to suggest Allan's book is very strong evidence for what he meant in 2016. Hangways1 (talk) 22:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the quote in question:

"The keys to the White House focus on national concerns such as economic performance, policy initiatives, social unrest, presidential scandal, and successes and failures in foreign affairs. Thus, they predict only the national popular vote and not the vote within individual states.''

Indeed, no system could have predicted the 537 vote margin for George W. Bush in Florida that decided the 2000 election. In three elections since 1860, where the popular vote diverged from the electoral college tally—1876 (when Democrat Samuel J. Tilden won the popular vote, but lost in the electoral college to Republican Rutherford B. Hayes), 1888, and 2000—the keys accurately predicted the popular vote winner.

Based on the historical odds since 1860, the chances are better than twelve to one that the popular and electoral college vote will converge in any given election. However, these odds presume continuity over time in the relationship between popular and electoral college votes. "

Allan Lichtman, Predicting the Next President: The Keys to the White House 2016, Introduction xi. (2016 edition, published by Rowman & Littlefield)

Again, surely there's a way to present Lichtman's words stating the keys only predict a popular vote (including in years where they diverge from the electoral college winner) without any NPOV concerns. This is just factually what his book contains, not a POV. Hangways1 (talk) 22:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the book you mention should be presented, along with other sources. That book is cited in the relevant passage in my version.

You write, "I don't think it's pushing a POV to suggest Allan's book is very strong evidence for what he meant in 2016." Providing the evidence (as I do) is NPOV. Telling the reader which evidence should be considered "very strong" would be POV. JamesMLane t c 22:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, I'm not suggesting the article itself state the evidence is very strong! :) Again, not advocating for a specific POV.

I do think that "Lichtman had usually been referring to the popular vote" doesn't communicate clearly that Lichtman specifically (1) stated in some cases that his system only predicts the popular vote, and (2) discussed years where the popular vote diverges from the electoral college and reaffirmed that the keys make popular vote predictions for those years.

I think that content can (and should) be presented without violating NPOV; if we're going to extensively summarise what the media said that Lichtman predicted, and what Lichtman said after the election... it seems to me that there should be at least as much depth given for what Lichtman said about his prediction at the time, to help the reader adjudicate the following info for themselves.

Anyway, this is seguing back into discussion of the article itself, and this talk space probably isn't the place for that. I wish merely to make the points that I think (1) the article doesn't adequately convey Lichtman's own writing where he makes it clear he's referring exclusively to the popular vote, (2) I think the article CAN do this without violating NPOV, and (3) while personally I think the evidence settles the dispute quite concretely, I agree with you that the article shouldn't use "very strong" or anything to summarise the evidence. Lichtman's own words stating the keys predict only the popular vote could be presented without bias. Hangways1 (talk) 23:10, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk about an escalation, you're actually arguing we should be banned from these pages despite not taking unilateral actions and only acting in consistency with a majority of editors on the talk page? Good grief. Goes without saying, but I think this is really silly and fruitless. Yes, the page can be improved (I don't think any of us disagreed with that?), but no it shouldn't be just as one user and as Lichtman has continually demanded. I for one asked for people to just cool off for a while and have tried, unsuccessfully, to do so myself because we have an actual election on the doorstep that I'm sure those passionate about the 13 Keys will be passionate about as well! Tomcleontis (talk) 22:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• I only looked at this complaint superficially, as I try to avoid U.S. politics articles, but is this really more than just a heated content dispute that should continue on the article talk page and noticeboards? Despite our best efforts, since editors are opinionated human beings, POV pushing is extremely common on this project on contentious subjects and it is usually combatted by having a large pool of editors debating content and editing articles so that articles aren't affected by extreme POVs. Is this disagreement really escalated to being ANI-worthy that sanctions are called for? Maybe posting this complaint here, on a very visible noticeboard, will draw more eyes to this article. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:48, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  Resolving it without AN/I would be ideal but, as a practical matter, I just don't see a path. If you masochistically wade through the multiple dispute resolution attempts identified above, you'll see the three SPAs, over and over, reiterating that the evidence on their side is stronger, that the sources they cite considered the matter more thoughtfully than the reliable sources that the SPAs disagree with, that the version in which Wikipedia adopts one side of the dispute is the only permissible version, and that any edit that changes that aspect must be instantly reverted. They will simply continue to do that.

  I'd like to draw more eyes to the article -- but several experienced editors have already said that the current version is unacceptably POV. The three SPAs are unfazed. They have demonstrated that they will not change.

  The issue is whether three SPAs can show up, edit an article to adopt a POV attacking a living person, and, by sheer persistence and stubbornness, override all attempts to conform the article to one of Wikipedia's core policies. JamesMLane t c 02:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't have time to fully reply tonight but will try to block out time tomorrow. As I wrote in the talk page when I reverted JamesMLane's recent edit, the edit was unilateral and contrary to no-consensus being found in the ongoing RfC. I reverted it on those grounds, not on the grounds of its specific neutrality or lack thereof - although we are working toward finding something we can agree is neutral. I still plan on posting a talk page topic tomorrow where I will propose some small to medium points of agreement I think we have and where we can edit the page (it can still be improved and JamesMLane did propose some good changes like I previously noted). Even if we are found wrong on the merits of the neutrality of the article, banning us outright from editing the page would prevent us from weighing in on good faith resolutions like that.

That doesn't include the dispute over 2016 itself, where (personally speaking) I do not favor JamesMLane's version of the article (if being forced to chose between only their version and the status quo) as being more neutral because there isn't really a dispute about the 2016 case. We have a primary source from the author himself on election's eve stating the keys were predicting the popular vote.

I actually worry about the actions from JamesMLane coming from POV pushing (requesting and repeatedly pushing edits that have been requested by Lichtman himself previously, which Lichtman did in violation of wiki policies and also seen in an edit from a user with the same name as Lichtman's wife). They also have seemed to be escalating their attempts and accelerating the timeline so as to be completed before the election tomorrow, which has been derailing the process and discouraging replies to the ongoing RfC. I just want them to take the temperature down and work with us. Apprentice57 (talk) 01:42, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

You write that "banning us outright from editing the page would prevent us from weighing in on good faith resolutions like that." You will still be able to weigh in on the Talk page. My request is only for article ban (i.e., mainspace only), not page ban. As for working with you, I've put in a huge amount of effort to do so. Your position in this very comment is that "there isn't really a dispute about the 2016 case." In your view, The New York Times is wrong, The Washington Post is wrong, Brandeis University is wrong, Wisconsin Public Radio is wrong, etc., so there's no dispute. I've said I was open to a good-faith resolution about how to present the dispute, but to deny its very existence is inherently a violation of WP:NPOV. JamesMLane t c 02:20, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

You say that as if it's a moderate option, but this is still fairly nuclear. Being able to propose changes to an article and having to wait for others to implement them is pretty obstructive of the process.

I recognize that sources award a "win" to Lichtman on 2016, but they tend to (as argued above) be opinion articles or drive by mentions of his record before introducing his take on the election at the time (this year the 2024 election, previously the 2020 election, etc.). As I wrote elsewhere, if there is a source that has interrogated his past record on 2016 in a deeper way and come to a contrary conclusion - I'm only aware of this from Lichtman himself post facto and there's an obvious conflict of interest there - I would welcome it coming to light and would find it persuasive. As of now, I'm only aware of sources that interrogated this and came to the same conclusion about the 2016 miss (the Atlantic, the media ethics piece, and if deemed acceptable the Postrider article of course). I wrote this on the recent Noticeboard thread you posted.

This is perhaps not the best place to discuss the merits of this, I mostly bring up this counterargument as an example of how I'm not POV pushing and would be open to changing my perspective, the sources just haven't merited it. Quite honestly, at this point I'm less concerned about the argument itself and more concerned about the process and your conduct. That one we can leave to the admins and 3rd parties I guess. Apprentice57 (talk) 02:31, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there is any need for the article to take a stance on whether the NYT, WaPo, Brandeis, etc. are correct or not. The article should provide as much of Lichtman's writings & statements as possible about contested predictions, AND it should mention that multiple media outlets and election personalities have variously supported/detracted from Lichtman's record. This way the reader can decide for themselves (a) what Lichtman's prediction was, and (b) whether the support/critique is reasonable.

I don't see how it violates NPOV to note that Lichtman persistently wrote until the 2016 election that the Keys only predict the popular vote — this is objectively what he wrote! Conversely, I don't see any issue with stating that Lichtman has received widespread support for his prediction record (along with the critique) — acknowledging that multiple media outlets have counted Lichtman's 2000/2016 predictions as both correct doesn't constitute support of those outlets. IMO any version of the article that presents one of these cases but not the other isn't fulfilling NPOV to the highest possible extent.

I'm a new editor so I have no place weighing in on what should merit a ban or not. However, I don't think either of the primary versions of the article being currently debated in Talk are nearly as neutral as possible. Hangways1 (talk) 05:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I didn't want to reply too much when this is already a lot for an admin to read, but I just want to say that I agree that both versions have flaws and could be improved! I think we could make the current version... less punchy, and it can certainly recognize that he is credited by media articles on the 2016 call. I actually reviewed JamesMLane's changes and agreed with some of them as well (for instance removing "claim" as a verb in what he argued was POV), but it didn't get much discussion. I didn't want to make any edits because James opened up the RfC shortly thereafter. Assuming I am not banned from all this, I look forward to discussing this more with you on the keys talk page. Apprentice57 (talk) 13:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• JamesMLane, the fact is that no action will take place if you don't get the support of at least one administrator and so far I'm the only one to offer a comment here. This case looks much more involved and complicated than a standard complaint to ANI. I think you might have more success if you could simplify your argument. But I wouldn't be surprised if no action comes from this as there is a lot of content to plow through. If this involves American politics, you might have more success at AE if the editors involved have received a contentious topic notification. But my hope is still that these differences could be resolved on talk pages. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:11, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

References

TheCreatorOne edit warring on Nis page, breaking of 1rr on that page

TheCreatorOne (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The Niš page has been under strict 1RR rule for all editors, which can be seen in this example [[52]], and in yellow warning ban [[53]] User:TheCreatorOne already broke that rule,[[54]], [[55]],[[56]] furthermore TheCreatorOne did not achieved consensus on talk page, but continues to WP:Bludgeon and window shopping, to input their own personal opinions which are highly controversial and obvious WP:battlefield- [[57]], [[58]] ... The editor uses off topic sources to prove their WP:point placing sources that have nothing to do with the city and concluding their own WP:synth. Since this discussion last for over a year now with several editors disproving their opinion [[59]] [[60]] etc. This is an obvious case of edit warring and disruptive editing and since TheCreatorOne persist with the same behaviour even after the warning on their tp [[61]] and several reverts by different editors [[62]], [[63]], [[64]],[[65]], I believe that ANI report is the next logical step. Thank you.Theonewithreason (talk) 07:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Theonewithreason,

I think you hqve the wrong page. Nish is a disambiguation page that no one has edited in more than 2 years. Did you mean a different page/article? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:28, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh I am sorry I meant city of Niš. Theonewithreason (talk) 08:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:27, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

maplink vs pushpin maps

User:Just a dude from earth reverting my edits by calling pushpin maps are norms, [66] [67]

I am adding maplinks interactive maps because I think it is more useful than pushpin maps , please look into Wikipedia:Why mapframe maps? And also other Indian cities also using interactive maps Gandhinagar, Ahmedabad. I am adding state border because In India article India is shown in earth map, in Maharashtra and other states article states are shown in India map, same way now cities are shown in state map. RI talk 08:11, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

RationalIndia, as it says in several places on this page, you have to post a notification about this discussion on the User talk page of the editor you are talking about. Please post this notice. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:31, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

[68] I am already posted. RI talk 08:34, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Have you tried discussing the matter with Just a dude from earth? This appears to be a content dispute. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Seems MAPVAR is the new ENGVAR. It is indeed a content dispute and I'd suggest you both find a place to talk it over. Way too early for any admin intervention. WaggersTALK 13:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@CX Zoom: tried to contact him on his talk page a month back for similar issue but he didn't replied [69] RI talk 14:01, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@CX Zoom: noticed his earlier edits and informed him to revert his edits but he didn't reverted and not even replied to CX Zoom ,

[70] , [71], [72], [73], [74] RI talk 14:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the ping. Yes, I have previously attempted to contact them regarding this issue more than a month ago: User talk:Just a dude from earth#Removal of route diagrams from Indian Metro systems, pointing at their attempts to replace html route diagrams with static svg maps, asking them to revert their changes and seek consensus. They neither replied, nor reverted themselves, nor opened a discussion at the appropriate forums. I also asked them to not misuse minor edits tag, and write edit summaries, both of which suggestions were only partially adhered to, and the very edits that are in contention have continued to use minor edit tag, but no summaries. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 15:01, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Concerns over interference in US elections by POV-pushing of FALSEBALANCE

Can someone please reinsert the template: {{Political POV}} at the beginning of the article? [[75]] the template was deleted by a user who does not follow WP:BRD, emphasizing the POV and created the WP:FALSEBALANCE, At least 9 users have raised the issue of the political neutrality of this Article, and the election interference concern has been ignored without consensus of many users. [[76]] From my understanding, Template removal criteria - All three criteria are not met: 1)Consensus through discussion, 2)neutrality concerns are satisfactorily resolved, and 3)there was no existing talk on the issue.

I want to record that there is a neutrality dispute in the US presidential election article, but other users claim that there is no neutrality dispute because WP:FALSEBALANCE or the biased article has been agreed to maintain it.

However, as I understand it,NPOV is a basic principle of Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects, so this policy is non-negotiable and the principles that form the basis of this policy cannot be changed by the agreement of users. For this reason, I would like to ask for advice on whether the neutrality issue template above can be recorded in the article. If it is okay to insert the neutrality issue template,

The template I inserted was excluded by another user 5 hours ago, I wonder if it will be applied to ""1RR"" if I insert it again later. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:03, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

You already started a thread for this on the relevant talk page. ANI isn't really the place for content disputes. — Czello ^(music) 12:19, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

In addition, in response to I wonder if it will be applied to ""1RR"" if I insert it again later, I recommend you don't re-add it without consensus. This is already a contentious article with abitration remedies engaged, so it's best you talk it through on the talk page rather than ignoring the existing consensus. — Czello ^(music) 12:30, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I understand, I will follow the suggestion. my inquiry was related to Wikipedia policy. I was wondering if it is possible to apply a Neutrality exception through user agreement.Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Nah you can't get an exception to 1RR just because you personally think a lede is non-neutral. Simonm223 (talk) 12:45, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello Simonm223, Please note that my inquiry about Neutrality exception issue - it is about basic principle of Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects, so this policy is non-negotiable and the principles that form the basis of this policy cannot be changed by the agreement of users. If there is an existing agreement, the content of the agreement has not been shared. User:Prcc27 is concerned about the fact that there is no neutrality issue. However, I think that the neutrality issue raised by more than 9 users should be respected. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 02:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I think we need to consider a topic ban for @Goodtiming8871:, they have consistently POV-pushed and have been disruptive on the article in question. Prcc27 (talk) 16:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Prcc27, can you make your case with diffs? Schazjmd (talk) 16:56, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I can. But will probably be too busy today since it’s Election Day. Prcc27 (talk) 17:12, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

There have been cases where more than 9 users have raised the neutrality issue of the article and tried to improve and improve the Wikipedia article together, and there have been actual cases where improvements have been made. I think it is unfair to limit the topic when people are trying to improve the article with good intentions. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 02:57, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Goodtiming8871, I am under the impression Prcc27 is talking about the last four or so months of various discussions and not just this one issue. --Super Goku V (talk) 20:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I understand. I couldn't 100% meet everything the user asked for, but I tried my best. However, this time, I hope that the template for improving the biased document will be attached, and that the demands of many users will be respected. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 22:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I know I'm kinda new to Wikipedia but I just thought I'd add that I do agree with @Goodtiming8871 in that there is a decent level of concern about people missing Wikipedia policy to defend an article that is being heavily debated. If the article is so bad it ended up on an administration form, then it's probably worth having a "neutrality disputed" sticker on it for a time in my mind and understanding of Wikipedia policy. Take that as you will DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 22:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• misusing, not missing

DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 22:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I hope that the template attached to the article will help improve neutrality by showing that many users are asking for improvements. Of course, I understand that it will take time for the neutrality that users are requesting to be improved, but I think it's meaningful because it provides a direction for the Wikipedia community to respect each other's opinions and constructively improve Wikipedia articles. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 22:16, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

At the very least, wait until after the 2024 election is held, before re-adding the template. GoodDay (talk) 16:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

In line with the suggestion that adding the template after the 2024 elections are over will be reviewed, I will follow the feedback from user. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 02:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Having the accusatory phrase "election interference" in the header is not helpful here. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:22, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Since the neutrality of Wikipedia cannot be changed by consensus of users, and many users have raised neutrality issues, I added that phrase. I wrote it in the title, including the "Concern" , to make it more gentle.Goodtiming8871 (talk)

• Because it wasn't stated at the beginning of this complaint, I thought I'd mention that this discussion is about the 2024 United States presidential election article. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for clarifying. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Pavolkrisko71 - aggressive comments to AfC reviewers.

An editor User:Pavolkrisko71 has had their draft declined three times. In this edit they accused the reviewer of being anti-semitic but more urgently they made a thinly veiled death threat to another reviewer in this edit. Qcne (talk) 14:01, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Probably should go to AN/I - but, yeah, doesn't look good. Simonm223 (talk) 14:13, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, moved to ANI. Qcne (talk) 14:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• Indefinitely blocked.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Coming here from AN, just wanted to note for future reference that death threats can also be reported to the WMF via WP:EMERGENCY. Alpha3031 (t • c) 15:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

IP 84.70.193.233

This IP has been repeatedly reverting the addition of the draft category template to their drafts as seen here: [77] [78] [79] Messages on their talk page about this have fallen on deaf ears. They appear unwilling to either communicate or follow WP:DRAFTNOCAT LaffyTaffer (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:03, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Since you had gotten to a fourth warning, why didn't you go to WP:AIV instead? Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 20:44, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I was told to come here after asking about that at the help desk. In hindsight, I should have gone to AIV, my bad. LaffyTaffer (talk) 21:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I stumbled across them on RC patrol and have blocked for 31h. --Chris | Crazycomputers (talk) 21:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

User:Superb Owl edit-warring again

User:Superb Owl is edit-warring at Jill Stein 2024 presidential campaign. They has added contentious material and re-added despite warnings. See [80] and [81] The editor has a history of edit-warring.User:Namiba 17:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Namiba, the first editor who deleted that addition did not have a strong opinion about it and expressed that in their comment - I attempted to explain why it was relevant by adding more context. You then reverted the entire thing (which I assumed was because you took issue with the additional explanation not the part that had been there for several weeks), so then I restored the original piece that had been there for some weeks. Now that is seems clearer that you may have taken issue with the entire thing, I have self-reverted. Superb Owl (talk) 17:43, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Superb Owl, In the second edit diff, you had the edit summary of restoring previous consensus version but I was unable to find an RfC on the talk page. Do you have proof that this was a consensus decided version? Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 20:40, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Cowboygilbert, I thought there was 'implied consensus' since it had been there - there was no RFC Superb Owl (talk) 20:49, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Consensus is only when you have editors agree upon something, it can't simply be "implied". Striking my comment, thank you for the replies. Don't need any more on the same policy. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 20:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Implied consensus is, more often than not, how Wikipedia works - see WP:IMPLIED.-- Ponyo^{bons mots} 20:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) Oh yes it can. See WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:01, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

User:YuelinLee1959 - WP:NOTHERE

User:YuelinLee1959 is pushing their gamergate views in their editing of Game Science by inserting information based on unverified rumors. Across edit comments and Talk:Game Science, they've been repeatedly warned and reverted by an editor for displaying rumors as facts[82][83]. After repeat reverts, they continued to push rumors as facts against journalists based on Reddit comments that were then reverted by an editor[84]. Continuing to push claims that IGN reporters are part of a consultant company based on rumors in both their edit comments and edits[85].

YuelinLee1959 later added unsubstantiated rumors of IGN manipulating a vote on their website. This was reverted by another editor[86]. They've since doubled down on the sources they're including from aggregator websites as being attributed to the owners of those websites, such as NetEase, Tencent, and Sina[87][88]. Many of these references like others they've added to Game Science are based on social media comments. I tried explaining that their sources on aggregators may be unreliable and they continued to push that the owners are making those claims, by sending me more aggregated content[89].

Upon failing to have their biased rumors included, they removed factual reporting from reliable sources[90]. I attempted to resolve this discussion in Talk:Game Science but after no longer feeling the conversation was genuine, I went to the WikiProject Video Games for dispute resolution and was directed here. Yuelinlee1959 no longer appears to be reading my replies and is instead prioritizing pushing their narrative and removing what they don't like. This is why I stopped responding in Talk:Game Science. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snakester95 (talk • contribs) 19:34, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

YuelinLee1959 hasn't edited Wikipedia in nearly a week - how come you're coming here now with this? It's hardly urgent if they've stopped. Simonm223 (talk) 19:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I was recommended to post it here, should it be on WP:AN instead? The reason I didn't post here immediately is because I brought it to a dispute resolution first. Snakester95 (talk) 20:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I've gone back and restored some of the deleted content as a 3rd party opinion after having reviewed sources. Right now, as YuelinLee1959 is apparently inactive I'd say there's not really much else to do. Sanctions are preventative, not punative, and, unless they start edit warring again, that means we really shouldn't do anything. Simonm223 (talk) 13:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not an active Wikipedia editor by nature, so it’s completely normal for me to be inactive for a period of time. I can’t edit Wikipedia daily like some of the more regular editors. As for why I didn’t continue replying in that discussion, it’s because, after I responded, there were no further replies, so I didn’t keep the discussion going. Seeing that I was @-mentioned in the incident thread, I’m here to respond.

First, I’m very surprised to be accused on Wikipedia

' noticeboard/Incidents. Simonm223, please take a look at our previous discussion in the Game Science section. Initially, it was just me, Cold Season, and FMSky discussing it, and the three of us reached a consensus to delete that entire section. After reaching this consensus and deleting the section, Snakester95 only joined the discussion three days later. In other words, we had already concluded the discussion and removed the section based on consensus when Snakester95 expressed opposition.

My actions were entirely based on the consensus with Cold Season and FMSky. I really don’t understand why actions based on consensus are being questioned here.

Let’s look at the context of my removal of that section: FMSky replied, “Would actually agree that wiping the entire section should be considered as it's only really sourced to a single IGN hit piece.” Cold Season responded, “In any case, I would support the removal of it all per the above comment.” My own opinion was, “I've mostly kept your changes, trying to make it as fair and neutral as possible. If it needs to be deleted, I fully support removing the entire section.” FMSky then responded again, saying, “I would be in favor of removing this entire pesky section.”

I made the decision to remove the section after gathering the opinions of all three of us. In other words, I deleted the section in line with the consensus reached in the discussion. After I removed this part, FMSky even thanked me for the edit.

Snakester95 only expressed opposition on the discussion after we reached consensus and finished the removal. I reviewed the discussion, obtained agreement from Cold Season and FMSky, reached a consensus, and then performed the removal. Was there anything in this action that violated Wikipedia principles? YuelinLee1959 (talk) 21:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Moreover, I don’t believe there was any edit war involved. When I removed that section, I did so based on the consensus reached with Cold Season and FMSky, who both supported its removal in the initial discussion. As for Snakester95, he only came in to express his opposition after we had reached consensus and completed the removal. When I removed the section, I had no idea he would disagree. Therefore, since consensus had already been reached, there was no edit war before Snakester95 expressed opposition. YuelinLee1959 (talk) 21:23, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello, YuelinLee1959, can you provide a link to where this consensus was reached? It could be on an article talk page or user talk page. Thanks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Just to note the version of the page I restored was based on the last edit by FMSky - the only thing I changed from that version was the addition of a header. So if the consensus version is based on an agreement struck with them as a party then my actions seem to be in support of that consensus version. However I think this discussion is best had at article talk and not on a noticeboard.

Other than that I'd politely ask YuelinLee1959 to try and be more concise with their replies. Simonm223 (talk) 13:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@LizI went back through the article talk history rather in-depth and here's what I can find: there is a rough 3-2 split about whether to remove the IGN article with YuelinLee1959 advocating either to include various opinion sources from Chinese media that are critical of IGN or to remove the IGN article, Cold Season and FMSky seeming to advocate to removing all mention of the controversy and Snakester95 and a dynamic IP arguing for the inclusion of the IGN reportage. The dispute largely hinges over what constitutes a WP:RS and what is WP:DUE although nobody involved has been very explicit regarding Wikipedia policy and guidelines. In this discussion the IGN piece is incorrectly described as an opinion piece by some editors. This is not the case - the IGN article is what passes for investigative journalism in the video games industry. It's of low quality but that's because games journalism is uniformly of very low quality and mostly consists of regurgitating press releases. As such it's about as good as games journalism gets. Unfortunately. However the two things I will say here:

1: There is not a clear consensus for any given course of action on the article talk page unless the IP editor is one of the involved editors working while logged out. This is a possibility that I wouldn't immediately discount but which I hope is not the case.

2: Assuming no sock-puppetry is going on here this is entirely a content dispute and should be addressed at article talk. Simonm223 (talk) 14:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@Liz@Simonm223Let me explain the consensus I observed at that time. First, regarding the IP user you mentioned—I actually hadn't noticed any IP user participating in the discussion.

Here's the timeline, as well as why I saw a consensus at that time:

On September 24, 2024, I initiated the discussion.

On October 5, 2024, at 08:55, I proposed either deleting the entire controversial section or neutrally adding some media accusations against IGN, alleging they were targeting Game Science intentionally.

On October 5, 2024, at 09:44, FMSky replied, “Would actually agree that wiping the entire section should be considered as its only really sourced to a single IGN hit piece.”

On October 5, 2024, at 10:55, Cold Season responded, “In any case, I would support the removal of it all per the above comment.”

At that point, the three of us had reached a consensus to delete this section of content. I didn't see the IP user you mentioned and wasn't aware of their presence, while Snakester95 hadn't joined the discussion at all. From September 24 to October 5, 2024, during the ten-plus days of discussion among myself, Cold Season, and FMSky, Snakester95 was absent.To be more precise, during those ten days, Snakester95 did not participate in or appear in the discussion at all. On October 5, we reached a unanimous agreement, and even then, Snakester95 still hadn't appeared in the discussion.

So, my first question: was it reasonable for me to believe we had reached a consensus at that time?

Let me reiterate: from September 24 to October 5, during the ten days in which FMSky, Cold Season, and I reached an agreement, Snakester95 never appeared or participated in any discussion. I didn’t even know this person. So, given that all participants in the discussion at the time were in agreement, was it wrong for me to believe that we had reached a consensus?@Liz@Simonm223

At that time, the only people involved in the discussion were the three of us, and all three of us agreed to delete the entire content. Snakester95 was not present in the discussion page at all.

Then we began to make deletion edits, with FMSky deleting part of the content. On October 8 at 8:55, Snakester95 joined the discussion, but at that point, he did not express any opposition to our prior consensus to delete everything.

I was away for a while, and later, based on the results of the October 5 discussion, and the fact that Snakester95 had not expressed any objections as of October 8, I went ahead and deleted the section. Only after I completed the deletion did Snakester95 raise an objection. This objection came after the deletion was already done.

From September 24 to October 5, in my discussions with Cold Season and FMSky, Snakester95 never appeared. How could I have foreseen that someone would come forward to oppose it in the future, and only after I had completed the deletion? Since Snakester95 only objected after the deletion was completed, and he had not participated in the prior discussion, while Cold Season, FMSky, and I had already reached an agreement, was there any error in my assumption that we had reached a consensus at that time? YuelinLee1959 (talk) 18:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Consensus can change - especially when an article suddenly gets new eyes on it for whatever reason. Please note that the version of the page I restored was the version edited by FMSky on October 23. Simonm223 (talk) 18:06, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Even if you believe that consensus can change, was my action of deleting content based on the previous consensus in any way against Wikipedia's rules? What I cannot understand is why, when my actions were clearly based on consensus, Snakester95 accused me of WP

on Wikipedia'noticeboard/Incidents. I am genuinely confused and do not understand why I am being accused of violating Wikipedia’s principles. I believe that the accusation against me is entirely unfounded. YuelinLee1959 (talk) 18:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

You are also discounting that Snakester95 was heavily engaged prior to October 5; you don't arbitrarily delimit consensus to the period of time when one person wasn't around and then say, "well they didn't say anything between these two dates." Simonm223 (talk) 18:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

This sentence is incorrect. The discussion started on September 24 by me and reached a consensus by October 5. During this period, I did not see any comments from Snakester95. If there were any, please let me know what Snakester95 said between September 24 and October 5. I never saw any of his/her comments during this period. Please help me quote them or provide a link. YuelinLee1959 (talk) 18:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Going back to what you said about restoring the page, can I interpret that as you having joined the discussion and thinking that the content should not be removed? If so, may I ask if we could revert to this version of the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Game_Science&diff=prev&oldid=1252864623. In that version, none of the content was removed, and it also included articles from certain media outlets criticizing IGN for targeting Game Science. Additionally, we could incorporate IGN's own response to these accusations.

If you believe this version only includes sources in Chinese, I can also add this link from Medium: https://medium.com/@marno.lucas28.com/is-ign-manipulating-goty-votes-to-eliminate-black-myth-wukong-998730a5fae0 and IGN’s own response: https://www.ign.com/articles/explaining-and-fixing-igns-face-off-controversy. YuelinLee1959 (talk) 18:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Please go to article talk for this discussion. AN/I is not the appropriate venue. Simonm223 (talk) 18:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

OK, I will go to the talk page. But can you answer my last question about what Snakester95 comments between September 24 and October 5. YuelinLee1959 (talk) 18:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Snakester95 made no less than 17 edits to Game Science and its related article talk page in the month of August alone. They took a wiki-break - that doesn't mean they can be ignored indefinitely. Simonm223 (talk) 18:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

What I mean is that from the time I initiated the discussion until October 5, when I reached consensus with Cold Season and FMSky, I did not see any comments from Snakester95. I couldn't predict the future, nor could I anticipate who would join the discussion. Just like now, you’ve joined the discussion, but on October 5, I couldn’t have predicted that you would contribute, and I couldn’t wait for you to finish your comments before making changes. The same applies to Snakester95. I could only base my actions on who was actively participating in the discussion and their opinions at the time. Since Snakester95 was not part of the discussion during that period, I naturally could not have predicted that they would later join and express opposition. This discussion may well have other people joining in later, but that’s something I can’t predict right now. YuelinLee1959 (talk) 18:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

This is the essence of WP:BRD: you had your discussion, you took action, and then someone objected and reverted. Whether they were there at the initial discussion or not is irrelevant. At that point, you go back to discussing to see what the issue is and whether or not there is actually consensus for the change.

That's where we are now, so I suggest you return to the talk page to suss things out. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Ultra 348

For a long time Ultra 348 (talk · contribs) rewrites various articles to their likes paying little attention to references and as I see they accumulated A LOT of angry warnings in their talk page. I find it hard to believe that a person is an expert in such diverse areas as Dobrolyot/Aeroflot, Nucor, Yandex Taxi, Southwestern Energy, to name a few. IMO it is time for a preventive block. --Altenmann >talk 21:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Altenmann, there is unlikely to be any action here unless you present an argument, accompanied by evidence, most often in the form of diffs. No action will be taken on accusations alone. They need to be substantiated. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:53, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

My argument is presented: numerous users made numerous warnings. Other than that I don't really care. I will keep posting "last warnings". --Altenmann >talk 07:49, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, you obviously care if you opened a complaint about this editor on ANI, you shouldn't do this action if you really don't care as you are asking other editors to spend their time looking into your complaint. ANI is a forum for taking action, not venting. As for my remarks. I was just offering you some advice. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 09:23, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I am happy to defend any of my edits. For example, many of the sentences on the Yandex Taxi page are no longer true. It is no longer operating in Lithuania, the company is no longer listed on the Nasdaq, and the self-driving info, which comprises most of the page, is now a separate unaffiliated company called Avride. You know my basis for thr other pages and even thr ones that were reverted were made in good faith with reasoning. Ultra 348 (talk) 15:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Borsoka's hidden agendas, bludgeoing and aggressiveness

During a FAR, Ceoil

• stated that my "aims seems to be to smith [my] enemies rather than move the page on. Dismal behaviour." [91]
• argued that I seized/edited an FA "via attrition", and referred to my "bludgeoning tactics" [92]
• accused me of "embarrassing double-speak" [93]
• argued that I am "an egotist that wants to collect scalps" [94]
• stated that I "have acted aggressively against" most reviewers [95].

If Ceoil were right, I should be severely punished, so I am calling them to present their case against me. By the way, I have suggested him at least twice that they should take me to ANI for misconduct. Borsoka (talk) 02:59, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

This is almost sad. My last comment on the FAR was encouragement I for one want this article to in some venue retain its star and be something the project can be proud of. But nonetheless its not reviewed in its current state at present, you have acted aggressively against any reviewer save AirshipJungleman who has now has bowed out. What do you honestly expect from here; please please please submit at FAC where you will get a far better and less cranky spin at the wheel, where everybody would more geared up for a promotion[96]. That you have acted aggressively against most reviewers is a pity but fact. I now want you to back away from that approach at FAR and move towards a more positive FAC. Ceoil (talk) 03:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Just to say, expatriating as he is, in no world I want to see Borsoka "severely punished". Ceoil (talk) 03:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Please add differences proving your above accusations. Otherwise, I must assume you baselessly accused me of several forms of misconduct. Borsoka (talk) 03:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, you have been quite belligerent in approach over the years at Middle Ages and my descriptions are describing your behaviour towards others. Again I urge you to stand to a more robust review at FAC. Ceoil (talk) 03:24, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Instead of repeating your accusations without evidence, please add differences. Borsoka (talk) 03:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• A simply mad complaint, which if it goes anywhere may well WP:BOOMERANG. Borsoka's language & aspersions, by no means restricted to Ceoil here, are at least as agressive. Johnbod (talk) 03:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• @Johnbod:, examples please.... Borsoka (talk) 03:55, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• Double speak: There are no editors who are arguing for keep here because for the time being the normal process is being followed. Consequently, those who argue for a delist should refer to a single point in the relevant policies. Norfolkbigfish's "action" demonstrates the destructive consequences of ignoring our rules. Ceoil (talk) 03:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
• "bludgeoning tactics" - +400 talk edits Ceoil (talk) 03:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• Yes, I was proposed to list all the problems in the 2013 FA version of the article on the Talk page. Two huge archives ([97], [98]) document my findings. Would you refer to the ones that were baseless? Borsoka (talk) 04:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• I am also a bully, according to Ceoil [99] Borsoka (talk) 04:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm put in mind of Paul Newman from The Verdict: "your honor, if you're going to try me case for me, I wish you wouldn't lose it." Borsoka, you can't take yourself to ANI and demand satisfaction. This won't be a constructive use of anyone's time. You should withdraw this and return to the featured article review. Mackensen (talk) 11:42, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I do not demand satisfaction. I request a fair investigation against me. Or do you think that an aggressive bully who uses bludgeoning tacts should be allowed to edit in the future? Or, alternatively do you suggest that I could regularly call Ceoil, for instance, as "Don Quijote's immature and aggressive caricature whose hunger for vengeance is extremly hilarious"? Borsoka (talk) 12:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Borsoka, do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Cullen328 (talk) 19:58, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I do not disrupt. I only want to know either bullies, etc can edit WP, or editors can regularly call each other bullies, etc. If the answer is no and no, what is the solution? (talk) 01:11, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Borsoka, it's the confusing way you set up this complaint. Instead of focusing on the other editor, you are asking editors to investigate you but offering examples from the other editor's edits. I guess you thought this was a clever approach but I think it left editors wondering what they were supposed to do with this information since you made this complaint about you, not them. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:28, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, because I think bullies are to be sanctioned. If I am a bully, I must be sanctioned. Borsoka (talk) 02:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I can see that you are unwilling to give up this counter-productive approach. I predict that there will be no action taken here and this complaint will be archived. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:32, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@Liz this is a fair comment. On the other hand it might well be productive if third parties looked at the FAR Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Middle_Ages/archive1 and gave a view. It is the rather long and boring result of the nom heavily editing a FA, then submitting to FAR. It seems to be in an intractable impasse that is preventing its closure what ever the result. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I guess my question is why are editors continuing to debate and post on an archive page? This has been going on for months. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's not an archive page, because of historical reasons to do with automated processes it's the live FAR page that's called archive1. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Correct. In fact it has just been closed as "Delist". If you want a really long one, try Wikipedia:Featured article review/Byzantine Empire/archive3, which is still open after a year. Johnbod (talk) 04:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

User:Paradygmaty stalking me

User:Paradygmaty stalks me and reverts edits of mine:

• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• 5
• 6

He also moved two pages that I moved, both to versions with typos:

• 1
• 2

The beginning of the aggression was my revert of his 5-months old page move of Stadion Miejski (Białystok), which he misinterpreted as a personal attack. But instead of a discussion, he reported it here as an incident. It's nothing personal on my part, and I apologized for the timing and explained it in the AN/I discussion. Also the validity of my page move was confirmed there by unbiased users. Therefore, I am concerned that the user's animosity towards me continues. FromCzech (talk) 06:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@FromCzech: You notified the user of this thread on their userpage. I've deleted that and moved it to their Talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@Bbb23: I apologize for the mistake. Thanks for the correction. FromCzech (talk) 13:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Seemingly unapproved bot - KLibot ?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hello. Unsure if this is the right noticeboard but I came across an edit by User:KLibot. The user page seems to have been copied from User:DumbBOT, but the actual operator of that bot has no recent contributions to suggest they've setup a new bot. Either way the bot seems to be unapproved, so wanted to flag that they are purporting to be an approved bot, but aren't. -OXYLYPSE (talk) 11:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Just as I posted this, it seems @Secretlondon has blocked the account. Can probably be closed. OXYLYPSE (talk) 11:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

1RR / abitrartion violation by Morgankarki

Bringing this here as it's fairly clear-cut and I'm hoping to avoid the bureaucracy of WP:ARE.

The Donald Trump article has a clear arbitration enforcement restrictions: You must follow the bold-revert-discuss cycle if your change is reverted. You may not reinstate your edit until you post a talk page message discussing your edit and have waited 24 hours from the time of this talk page message. This is evident both on the talk page templates but also when you open the editing pane. Morgankarki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) made this edit, which I reverted. They immediately restored it, which violates the arbitration enforcement. I requested both on their talk page and the article talk page that they revert, but they have not done so.

Requesting this be reverted and Morgankarki be warned on this topic. — Czello ^(music) 12:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

The edit in question has since been reverted. Morgankarki has not edited since their revert, and judging by Special:Contribs/Morgankarki it's not unusual for them to go days or weeks between edits – they've made only 154 edits in 2024 to date. It's quite possible that they have not yet seen your request to revert. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:37, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I didn't see that it had been reverted (and even now can't see which diff it happened in, but perhaps I'm being blind). Happy for this thread to be closed. — Czello ^(music) 14:42, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I also can't find the diff. I've given them an AMPOL alert here; per WP:CTOP I believe that an admin could still give a logged warning to someone who was not previously aware of a contentious topic, but I don't know that it's necessary if you're happy that this is resolved. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

They did it again. A short block or topic ban may be in order. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

They have been warned, let's see what they do. I say this because most of their edits involve Nepal, not U.S. politics, this seems to be an anomaly for them. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:15, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I think I block is required. They don't seem to be paying attention to any warnings. GoodDay (talk) 20:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd consider this to be a legal threat. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 23:43, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, while don't repeat otherwise under behalf of trump administration I can take action is a threat, I don't see it as a legal threat and I'm 100% certain it is a baseless threat as I doubt this editor represents the Trump administration, past or future. Especially because they seem to be from Nepal, not the U.S. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Nonetheless, it's definite WP:NOTHERE behaviour, especially given the edit warring in a contentious topic. (Although I personally would have agreed with Lilana that it was a legal threat). — Czello ^(music) 07:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Disruption; mass edits; insults: Shooboo23

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Shooboo23 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User has been disrupting a great many pages by adding pipes to the names of UK government offices. They've been advised by numerous editors this is unhelpful and not appropriate. They've now moved on to gross insults against other editors: "no need to be a stupid rude prick", when that attack is objected to the response "can you read?" [notified] Cambial — foliar❧ 20:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I've a feeling that this might be a VosleCap/Unityguard sock. MiasmaEternal☎ 20:53, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

feel free to check my IP, im not a 'sockpuppet' as you might label me. im here to make meaningful contributions and conflicting edits on british government pages and other items which this editor who is referring me might reference are a result of my genuine desire to improve wikipedia with my knowledge area. i would point out that ive also engaged with other editors on the talk page to figure out solutions to conflicting edits and you should read that whole conversation, as the editor who i called a prick was being unnecessarily disrespectful first. Shooboo23 (talk) 22:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

No, but it is reminiscent of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1170#Benga502 and VosleCap, which CU results confirm. DatGuy^Talk_Contribs 22:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A wave of politician portrait removal by Seattle IPs

Someone using IPs from Seattle has been removing lots of images from the biographies of politicians.[100][101][102]

They are currently blocked as Special:Contributions/50.227.46.210, Special:Contributions/2600:100F:B205:0:0:0:0:0/48 and Special:Contributions/2601:601:C82:2F10:0:0:0:0/64, and they were recently blocked as Special:Contributions/174.233.17.11, but they have also been using the IP ranges Special:Contributions/174.231.128.0/19, Special:Contributions/174.215.112.0/21, Special:Contributions/174.224.192.0/21, Special:Contributions/2601:601:C80:6F30:D00B:9CB0:8F0B:263D/64 and Special:Contributions/73.109.165.4. The Dow Constantine biography saw a ton of disruption from this person.

They have edit-warred extensively over the historic grocer's apostrophe in the band name the B-52's, trying to remove it from articles pertaining to the time when it was used.[103][104]

Can we put Dow Constantine in protection? Can we rangeblock some of the 174.x IPs? Binksternet (talk) 00:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Protected Constantine for a week, I'll leave any rangeblock to smarter people than me. charlotte ^👸♥ 03:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

User:CyberIdris

The article on "Yukio Mishima" was subject to trolling from multiple IP addresses believed to be the same person, and the administrator recently took action to semi-protect the page. But the exact same trolling has now resumed again, this time by User:CyberIdris, who is likely to be the same person as 45.128.80.181 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log).

I won the FA for my article on Yukio Mishima in the Japanese edition, and I make accurate edits based on reliable academic sources, but this person alters parts of Mishima's history that he does not like, and insists on exaggerating and labeling him as an "ultra-nationalist." I explained to him in User talk:45.128.80.181 that "ultra-nationalist" and "restoring direct imperial rule" are wrong view that is not found in any source, but this person has not listened at all, and now he has repeated the same trolling as User:CyberIdris, at the same time he continues to changing the correct titles of Mishima's works that are the official English titles to wrong.

In the first place, Mishima's final suicide appealed for Japan's independent defense through the amendment of Article 9 of the Constitution. Therefore, the user's edit itself, inserting the phrase "restoring direct imperial rule," is strange, and at the same time, it is an addition that reveals ignorance of Japanese history. This is because even before the war, the Emperor had not direct rule.

This user probably does not have accurate knowledge about Mishima or Japan, in spite of he is comfortable making changes and deleting words from articles that have proper academic sources. I just looked at the edits of this user on other articles, and in other articles about Japan, he also omits sources for no particular reason, calling it "trimming." ([105])

I have explained the same thing to User talk: CyberIdris, but I think there is a high possibility that he will troll again with his incorrect views. I think he is also violating the rule of multiple accounts. In order to preserve proper, high-quality articles, I would like you to put an end to this trolling that ignores sources and is done by people who have no knowledge of Yukio Mishima. Thank you. みしまるもも (talk) 01:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello, みしまるもも, as it says all over this page, you need to post a notification to this editor on their User talk page, alerting them to this discussion. Please do so. If you think they are a sockpuppet, you should file a case at WP:SPI. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Dear Liz, Thank you for teaching me. みしまるもも (talk) 02:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Not true. First みしまるもも's accusation of trolling is uncivil and unnecessary.

Second @みしまるもも appears to have a emotional connection to this topic and has been treating the article as if he owns it personally. みしまるもも 's userpage suggests a heavy conflict of interest.

From what I can see on the talk page みしまるもも was lectured harshly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Yukio_Mishima#Original_research for pushing original research and acting like he is a self-proclaimed "Mishima expert" to oppose all improvements.

He seems to be interested in pushing nationalist viewpoints. CyberIdris (talk) 03:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

• I did not do any original research. The other party only asked for secondary sources, and I later provided the secondary sources and resolved the issue. From my perspective, Mr. Ash-Gaar was doing some original research, so I pointed that out to him, and he responded in that way. I have now reconciled with him, and it has nothing to do with your case. And Mr. Ash-Gaar also reverted your edit, and when I corrected a mistake in his edit ("to restore direct imperial rule,"), while explaining the reason, I received a thank you notice.--みしまるもも (talk) 03:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

What usually helps in situation where two editors are locking horns is to get feedback from other editors who are interested in the article. Have you tried talking about your differences on the article talk page, Talk:Yukio Mishima? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:28, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Dear Liz, thank you for mediating. I have explained it in Talk:Yukio Mishima now.

He misguided understanding and alteration of Mishima's final act is clearly vandalism. Besides that, he even change the official English titles of Mishima's works to incorrect ones, and edit to remove "Mishima has been recognized as one of the world's most important literary persons of the 20th century," which I edited based on the academic literature source of Donald Keene. Also, he reverted the notice I posted on his talk page.([106])

みしまるもも (talk) 04:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

This sounds frustrating. But it's also a content dispute and ANI handles misconduct. I'm not convinced their edits are vandalism. If discussion on the article talk page doesn't lead to a resolution there are other forms of dispute resolution if CyberIdris is willing to take part in them. But if you have more than suspicions about sockpuppetry, then you might head to SPI. In a complaint there, you will be expected to produce evidence that editors are editing in a similar manner, they are pretty strict about that there. It's not for "fishing". Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Possible Gatekeeping/Disruptive censoring on Teahouse Question

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I am here because I believe that my recent questions on the Wikipedia Teahouse were subject to inappropriate gatekeeping. I had asked why there is no Wikipedia article about AIPAC’s involvement in the 2024 U.S. elections, particularly regarding its influence on prioritizing Israel's interests. My question got immediately removed without sufficient reasoning, and when I restored it, it was removed again by the same editor, who stated it was "not helpful."[107]

But I feel my inquiry was handled in a disingenuous or stonewalling manner that prevented me from receiving a fair response to a fairly reasonable question. I understand the need for Wikipedia’s civility and neutrality policies, but I believe I posed my question in a reasonable and constructive way, seeking only information. I also asked if there are specific rules restricting discussion of AIPAC activities oeahouse, because it appears my entire question was removed despite no consensus that all topics relating to AIPAC are not allowed to be discussed on Teahouse.

It’s also my understanding that the Teahouse is meant to support open dialogue and assist new editors. And why I’m concerned that this approach - deleting my 2 questions outright - may not align with Wikipedia’s commitment to transparency and constructive support for new users seeking clarity on complex topics.

Could an administrator please review this situation and provide guidance? And also point to the specific rule that AIPAC influence on US 2024 elections cannot be discussed by new users on Teahouse despite it's really gatekeeping or overly strict or lofty criteria specifically to limit participation of people questioning AIPAC. 49.181.58.245 (talk) 02:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to comment on the removal (more than I have elsewhere), but please read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. – 2804:F1...4A:3386 (talk) 02:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi! The wider Arab–Israeli conflict is considered a contentious topic and has been placed under a special set of restrictions, limiting discussion to logged-in users with at least 500 edits to avoid disruption. I think a newcomer question at the Teahouse should still have had a polite response explaining the situation, although this comment you made could be seen as casting aspersions and should be avoided in the future. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 02:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

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WP:Helpdesk

Evening, Theres ongoing disruption on the helpdesk pages, have reverted and blocked what I'm sure (and I'm sure i've seen more evidence of) is an ip evading editor. Ive slapped pending changes on the page as a stop gap measure so that editors who are trying to post appropriately can do but could probably do with a second set of eyes/more input on it as this seems to be an ongoing problem. Any thoughts/suggestions on the matter would be useful, edit filter with a disallow might be useful but that's outside of my areas of expertise. Amortias (T)(C) 02:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Amortias, is this general trolling or is there a focus to this disruption? Does it seem like one editor? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I cant confirm its one editor but its basically a duck with a megaphone and a flashing neon sign going "quack".

They keep replacing the exact same message over several days, their banned from irc and i believe from passing memory they were originally blocked for making death threats. Amortias (T)(C) 02:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Evening. Yup, that's DarwinandBrianEdits/MidAtlanticBaby, who is most well known for making death threats against everyone and wondering what the problem is. Edit filters are probably just going to get worked around (which already explains their ridiculous fonts). I'm generally opposed to protection of the help desks. Of course hardliners will say DENY REVERT. Another solution is to just answer the question. I know some people have tried that and it doesn't seem to get through to this one that harassment and death threats are out order. Yet another method is to wait half an hour, then revert. Without immediate reversions there would unlikely be any need for protection. Really slow reverting of plain nonsense, or a single clear response, is ever so dull and cause much less collateral and disruption. Just my 2c. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 02:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Or you could just semi-protect the page for 12 hours since they are all IP accounts. They seem to move on when their efforts are frustrated. But they might just find another page to post at. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi was my first thought but that would also preclude other editors, pending changes would at least let non-autoconfirmed editors post prior to approval. Pending changes seems to have stemmed the activity for now. Amortias (T)(C) 03:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

To be completely honest, even though they are sockpuppets, I thought their question ("How do I contact WMF?") is a legitimate question that could be easily answered by linking to the contact page. Maybe then they would stop posting. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Been tried, didn't work.Amortias (T)(C) 03:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I have run across various manifestations of this LTA many times in recent weeks, and the person says that they have emailed the WMF hundreds of times and they just won't answer. That's not surprising. I think their grudge goes back to some ancient dispute about Michigan license plates. Cullen328 (talk) 03:48, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

As someone who frequents the Help Desk, I can say that their efforts are persistent even after multiple page protections. I too am against protection of the help desk; maybe put it under pending changes? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 04:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Tenryuu, Amortias mentioned in his initial message in this discussion thread that set up pending changes so that was a good guess. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

IIRC, MAB uses VPNs/open proxies almost exclusively, and when blocked he will just hop to another one, a la Nate Speed. Answering the question does nothing because he's not interested in any sort of answer; we've had the displeasure of dealing with him on IRC (and staff treat him as kill-on-sight). I haven't been harassed yet, but I'm not worried about it because I've had to deal with far worse than anything he can cook up. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 19:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps we should start proactively blocking everything listed on https://www.vpngate.net/en/? I've seen a bunch of their IPs blocked as VPNGate proxies. C F A 💬 21:11, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I think this is my fault - I reverted their edits a few days ago which made them furious, and since I've been harassed across en.wiki de.wiki meta and commons sporadically. Thanks to all the editors/admins for reverting and banning.

However... it is vaguely concerning there wasn't a LTA page on this editor, apparently its a case of WP:DENY, but for unexperienced editors like myself with no context it was disconcerting being the target of the vitriol and seemingly other editors and admins knowing what was going on, while leaving me in the dark. qcne (talk) 18:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

You've had an account for 18 years, you are about as far from inexperienced as you can be. I also don't know how you came to the conclusion that most other editors and admins knew who this IP account was. Their identity hasn't been confirmed and I sure didn't recognize who this editor might be. And if you have been the target of a rampaging editor, bring it to ANI or to the attention of an administrator so that other editors are aware of it. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Only been active for the last 18 months, however. Thanks for the advice. qcne (talk) 19:57, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

This is MidAtlanticBaby, nothing but an attention troll. WP:RBI is the best approach. There is no LTA page because it would not help, but we are keeping some info on the private checkuser wiki. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Obvious spam username

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https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Pharmadatabase&action=edit&redlink=1 Please help Sage of Knowledge (talk) 05:45, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Request this at WP:UFAA. Tropicalkitty (talk) 05:48, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

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Vandal editor

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Anjum_saniya They are breaking the formatting of articles on purpose Sage of Knowledge (talk) 06:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

You gave them a first warning at 6.29 and they haven't edited since. No need to report to ANI, just keep an eye on their future edits to make sure they've developed their understanding of article design. -- Euryalus (talk) 10:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

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Spam account

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User:Sujata trivedi bollywood playbacksinger Sage of Knowledge (talk) 08:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

It's definitely a misuse of a user page, but an explanation of WP:UP is enough.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 08:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

This user account was registered < 5 hrs ago, and has already reported three users here at ANI, one at SPI, and a few at each of UAA and AIV. This must count as some sort of record, surely? I'm sure it took me months if not years to even know those fora exist. (AGF, I'll say no more than that.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

It could be a sock making this report, but assuming good faith they're probably a long-time IP. Conyo14 (talk) 17:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I just realized that you are referring to Sage of Knowledge, not Sujata trivedi bollywood playbacksinger. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I wish people would stop assuming the worst when a new user knows their way around Wikipedia. We admonish them when they do something wrong, but accuse them of being sockpuppets when they do things right. Yes, this may be a sockpuppet, it may be someone who has edited unregistered before, and it may be someone who just checks that they are doing things right before editing. We don't know which. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Phil, that is the silliest claim ever. If someone knows how to do stuff right automatically as a nee account, the only reason someone would go after them is because of queer editing behavior. more often than not, strange editing behavior from new accounts that know it all are socks and whatnot. No questionablr editing behavior? no ANI report. BarntToust 20:43, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@Phil Bridger my first edits as a registered account was literally developing Pedro Pascal on screen and stage, and I'd been Wikipedia-ing for maybe 3 or so years as an IP doing random stuff. I got a template saying "you can just create articles yourself now you are auto-confirmed, no need for AfC"; I didn't get an ANI report. Know why? Making a performance list for Internet daddy isn't questionable or concerning. BarntToust 20:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@BarntToust, rather than accusing me of making "the silliest claim ever" you might like to first check (it's not difficult) who reported whom. And I was unaware that Wikipedia declared anyone reported at ANI automatically guilty of wrongdoing. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I exaggerate, sorry. Though, I must say I'm arguing for the principle, not the context. BarntToust 21:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

See also: User:NinjaRobotPirate/Identifying sock puppets. DatGuy^Talk_Contribs 20:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Sage of Knowledge was blocked as sock by Ponyo. Conyo14 (talk) 23:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

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Aimaqpedia

Aimaqpedia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears to be a single-purpose account pushing unsubstantiated claims on Aimaq people including after being warned by Sumanuil. I blocked them on Commons for repeatedly uploading a fake flag of the Aimaq people. See also this edit on Commons. I suspect the person they're referencing is themselves. It looks like they are not here to build an enyclopedia. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 10:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

They haven't edited since October 20.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:32, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

IP tag-teaming with globally locked sockmaster

IP addresses in the 2409:40F3:1000:0:0:0:0:0/40 range have been adding images uploaded by the account Chrymedia on the Commons, an obvious sockpuppet who does not have an EnWiki account. This is likely an IP proxy scheme. Besides being effectively banned by this SPI, the images are copyright violations. I'd like to see the IP blocked from the articles Raphael Thattil, Thomas Tharayil (archbishop of Changanassery), and Joseph Perumthottam. If someone who can has interest in doing so, please also request a global lock on Chrymedia; I do not have the necessary permissions to edit that page. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

User:Clioos

User Clioos has recieved multiple warnings on their talk page for uploading non-free images to articles about Youtubers and still persists in doing so despite the warnings. This is in addition to their constant resubmission of a draft to AFC without improvement until it was finally rejected (where they proceeded to recreate it under a different title). I think this is a chronic case of not getting it, which wouldn't be such an issue if not for the continued copyright violation.

I'm posting this here as neither AIV or AN seemed appropriate, so apologies if this isn't the right venue. CoconutOctopus talk 17:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Looks like WP:NOTHERE from this person. I'd generally be inclined not to WP:BITE the newbie but this editor has declined to engage with any of the multiple warnings. Simonm223 (talk) 17:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Clearcut racist vandalism here[108] Doug Weller talk 19:12, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

There was also this edit. But this was at the beginning of their editing career. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

User:Clioos removed a speedy delete tag here from a copyright-protected photo of rapper Julio Foolio, stating "I'm his mother". --Magnolia677 (talk) 15:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Since this editor has resorted to personal attacks against another contributor, had one of their drafts deleted as a G3, vandalized here and has numerous warnings, and recreating the same draft at a slightly different title, I have blocked them indefinitely for disruptive editing. Fathoms Below (talk) 15:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

IP on a Personal attack-filled spree on US election related articles

68.196.5.168 has been attempting to POV-push since their first edit, with personal attacks mixed in for good measure from the second edit [109]. I could give a detailed analysis but I think edits and edit summaries such as these [110] [111][112] do the music themselves. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 18:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

While their comments are sharply worded, 2024 Trump rally at Madison Square Garden is an article that draws editors with strong opinions. The only personal attack directed towards a specific editor is a CIR question and that is a charge that gets raised on ANI all of the time so I'm unsure about sanctioning an editor for raising that. I think we have to watch their comments about Judaism but right now it looks like it's a comment about political support, not antisemitism. They are clearly anti-conservative but we don't block editors based on their political stance but based on their behavior. That's my take, other editors might see this differently. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:32, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Certainly the point about Judaism was phrased unclearly. To clarify, the point was simply that there is no logical connection between the statements A) "Trump enjoys more support among Orthodox Jews than Harris" therefore (somehow) B)"Trump is not a fascist." A does not imply B; A is not even in any way evidence for B. And even if it somehow was, that would be synth since the source cited makes no mention of fascism. the bit about Nazism was just my idle speculation as to why that editor fallaciously suggested that Trump's support in the Orthodox community was at all germane to the question of whether Trump is a fascist, but this statement was unclear and unnecessary to my overall point. As for the suggestion that there were competence concerns about a particular editor, I just looked and that user was banned as "Not here" so it would appear others shared my assessment. The deletion discussion statement was surely a bit hyperbolic but I was trying to indicate just how obvious it was that this topic is notable. There is a mountain of academic literature on it, as well as other similar neo-fascist and illiberal pseudo-democrats around the globe, most of whom Trump regularly fetes with praise and who cheered his return to power. I do maintain that there was no reason to have that deletion discussion since no one ever raised any challenges to the notability of the topic. The user who sent me here (and somewhat rudely did not provide a link to the discussion leaving me to find this topic) appears to just be upset that he lost the debate. Chin up, mate. You can get through this. 68.196.5.168 (talk) 21:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

"I would like to raise WP:Competenceisrequired concerns about Mr. Britton. The above sentences clearly illustrates the basic competences needed to edit articles on political topics are missing here."

"Please clear out the trolls, like both of the above editors, especially the nutter going on about "bolshie elitists who run this site."

"No offense, but your (Fantastic Mr. Fox) position is palpably absurd.

"Speedy Keep and I propose that all “delete” votes take a 7 day ban to read and reflect upon WP: Competenceisrequired"

This IP ran into the thick of Meta Wikipedia disputes and quickly starts ordering users against him to be banned. He is hardly here to set to provide a extra set of contributional helping hands? Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 21:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I would like to second this as I have noticed it quite a bit and it is becoming an increasing issue Artem P75 (talk) 22:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I am making comments on the content of articles and making substantive points about article content. You, on the other hand, appear to be engaged in some sort of strange personal vendetta. Just let it go, man.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.5.168 (talk • contribs)

"You, on the other hand, appear to be engaged in some sort of strange personal vendetta. Just let it go, man."

In this very comment, you implicitly cast WP:ASPERSIONS. Content is not an issue. WP:PA's are. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 21:19, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Do you know WP:Boomerang friend? You've sure been blocked an awful lot of times for engaging in similar WP:Battleground behavior as you are right now to be so confident in calling in the administration. Has that typically gone well for you in the past?68.196.5.168 (talk) 21:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

"You've sure been blocked an awful lot of times for engaging in similar WP:Battleground behavior as you are right now to be so confident in calling in the administration."

This falls under WP:ATONED. I don't think I need to elaborate much more here on IP's behaviour.

If the IP wishes to be a positive member of Wikipedia, I suggest he seriously reconsider his attitude on this platform. I will and have had disagreements with members, but we move on and work positively to find a solution because we assume each others intentions are WP:GOODFAITH. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 21:43, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, we should certainly all move on. Cheers. 68.196.5.168 (talk) 23:57, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

68.196.5.168, do you agree then to speak with more civility towards other editors, especially those you disagree with, and stop casting aspersions? This is necessary if you wish to continue to edit here. Behavior that is common on most discussion boards is not tolerated here. You need to treat your fellow editors with respect and they, to you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Fine, i’ll do as you suggest. But a couple of things. Please permanently ban that editor who was complaining of “the bolshie elitists who run Wikipedia” and now openly declared himself an anti-semite on the article talk page. If you don't want me to have to get down in the mud, please clean up your own trash. And Mr. fox should really reflect upon his own behavior towards other editors, which seems to have undergone no improvement since his previous many blocks for battleground behavior and other behavioral issues, despite his claims to atonement. I shall do my best to not be baited by conduct like his again. 68.196.5.168 (talk) 12:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

You claim here "I'll do as you suggest" then immediately ask for someone to be permanently banned (the highest punishment possible), say you will only stop if Wikipedia 'cleans (its) own trash' (very WP:RGW-esque), and then subsequent fire off some more unbacked WP:ASPERSIONS about behaviour from a block that nobody has ever brought up or mentioned since.

IP, nobody 'baited' you into going into discussions with WP:BADFAITH. I am a person who enjoys giving rope to editors who at least try to communicate collaboratively. I haven't seen you once make a comment without attempting to aggressively POV-push, mention 'x should be punished for y' or straight up refuse to acknowledge any point the person they are replying is making. To me, the IP appears to be WP:NOTHERE with no real signs him changing his standpoint. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 16:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

MPN 1994 disruptive behaviour

MPN 1994 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has a long history of poor behaviour and a fairly long block log. On 3 November, I issued a final warning to this user due to their repeated disruptive behaviour on 1936–37 Maltese FA Trophy, 1937–38 Maltese FA Trophy and 1938–39 Maltese FA Trophy - essentially reverting the AfD closure without permission. I reported this to WP:RPP in the hope of getting the redirects protected but was told to take it here instead. They have also been disruptive while logged out - see here and here. The latter example was after I had already issued a final warning on MPN's talk page. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:53, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

It's worth noting @MPN 1994 has a habit of removing warnings from there talk page [113], which has removed most of the Christmas shopping list of notifications and warnings Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 19:06, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Without assessing the validity of this complaint, I'll just point out that editors are allowed to remove warnings from their User talk page and that alone is not an action that would call for sanctions. It's pretty common behavior. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

And to add onto @Liz has pointed out: while it's important to assume good faith about removing user warnings, taking it as a neutral sign that they've read it, it's also okay (and sometimes important!) to point out when someone has done this, like @Fantastic Mr. Fox has done. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 04:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

User ΓΚΝΟΥ keeps adding misleading block notices

ΓΚΝΟΥ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user keeps on adding this message onto editors' talk pages that whom have not edited in a while, and also messes around with other people's comments. I've gave them a final warning yesterday but they continued today. Pinging Rosguill who is aware of the situation. Myrealnamm (💬pros · 📜cons) 21:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Are they this LTA? Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Hamish Ross? Knitsey (talk) 21:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't look like HR. Usually Hamish uses sleeper accounts and adds Template:userpage and Template:talk header and gibberish. But I know that Hamish's behavior has changed recently, a bit. Myrealnamm (💬pros · 📜cons) 21:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Thats why I wondered if it was them? Then again, there are that many of them around at the moment, I've given up guessing. Knitsey (talk) 21:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

This might be User:My self made theory, who also uses mobile web to edit and has done similar stuff. Myrealnamm (💬pros · 📜cons) 21:28, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

• Blocked and tagged with  Likely master.-- Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:51, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk page blanker

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Special:Contributions/Iaof2017 Sage of Knowledge (talk) 21:28, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@Sage of Knowledge you have seen WP:NOTWALLOFSHAME on your screen when you restored those comments, read that page. "Policy does not prohibit users, whether registered or unregistered, from removing comments from their own talk pages, although archiving is preferred." Myrealnamm (💬pros · 📜cons) 21:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

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Persistent edit warring in contentious topic

UrbanVillager (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Persistent POV edits, removes critical content, adds misleading info to the article.

[114] removes producer association with RT Documentary. Removes Historian Ian Garner noted that Trofimova's claim that she did not have official permission to film the soldiers "hardly stands up to scrutiny in a country where independent journalism simply does not exist" and that Trofimova absolved the soldiers of moral responsibility for war crimes such as rape, looting, and murder by presenting them as "blind kittens", and "helpless to intervene". Garner termed this an "alarming reiteration of the 'just following orders' narratives" that surrounded the Holocaust.[115]

[116] again after being reverted.

[117] again partial revert after being reverted.

[118] adds unsourced "five-minute standing ovation", "she "hadn't watched the "Russians at War" yet" when she was making these comments" .
Removes sourced content from Garner, again.
Adds unsourced The Ukrainian government sent a protest letter to the 81st Venice International Film Festival in August 2024, before the film's trailer (September 4) or the film itself (September 5) had been released.
Removes sourced The film sparked backlash from some regional experts, Canadian politicians and the Ukrainian-Canadian community, who characterized it as "Russian propaganda."
Adds Within the film industry, Trofimova's film was recognized as an original, professionally done and gutsy anti-war documentary.[10][9][11][6][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19] with the first source Ukrainians assail Russian war film at Venice fest saying This film may mislead you into believing that it is an anti-war film, one that questions the current regime in Russia," Darya Bassel, a producer who watched the film at the festival, said in a Facebook post. "However, what I witnessed is a prime example of pure Russian propaganda," she said .

[119] again removes Garner.
Removes DW noted that the film is controversial. The producers say the film is anti-war. Critics criticize it for sympathizing the invading soldiers and for not informing the viewer on the Russian war crimes. On the other side, "Trofimova's film is considered one of the few documentary video evidence from the Russian side of the front." and replaces it with Germany's DW News: "Trofimova's film is considered one of the few documentary video evidence from the Russian side of the front." referenced to Канал TVO не покажет спорный фильм "Русские на войне" – DW – 11.09.2024 which says The filmmakers say they perceive it as an anti-war statement. Critics believe that this is an attempt to "humanize" Russian soldiers and express sympathy for them. According to opponents, the film does not show the massive destruction in Ukraine and the war crimes of the Russian army.
Adds As the press noted, none of the participants of this protest saw the film with 7 references, with only one saying the people who managed to get this film cancelled almost certainly haven’t seen it and others do not support it.

[120] adds Without permission from the Ministry of Defense as a fact, while it was challenged by Garner and others. Basically, returns their previous reverted version [121] while keeping 2 amendments (Garner and controversial mention).

[122] another tendentious edit, adds "Anti-war content" and "Footage rarity" sections which fills with whatever they like. Puts most critical assessments from "Critical response" into "Controversy and political pressure" and "Protests" sections, converts "Critical response" into "Reception" which mostly fills with praise.

[123] returns their reverted version
[124] again, and [125] again.

In talk, do not attends the arguments raised, do not agrees to adhere to WP:CONS - Talk:Russians at War#WP:OWN , makes accusations of vandalism and personal appeals.

I'm tired of being the only one to oppose the editor and am asking others to step in. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Reporting harassment by sockpuppet account

A sockpuppet is constantly putting unsourced content on the wikipage Uddhav Thackeray, After removing his unsourced edits, he is harassing me on my talk page. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/117.228.176.138 )

Regards Io5678 (talk) 21:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

How do you know this user is a sockpuppet? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

His edits are politically motivated as he has harassed me in talk page.They can be had in the history of my talk page. Io5678 (talk) 22:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Io5678, the "history of your talk page"? There are only 7 edits to your user talk page you've only been an editor for 4 days now. That's not a long history. Have you used other accounts before this one? It's highly unusual for a 4 day old account to bring a complaint to ANI. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

He puts the same unsourced stuff again.and his IP address are similar Io5678 (talk) 22:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I think what Ivanvector was getting at is that IPs can change without any intent or even knowledge of the person making the edits. That is not sockpuppetry unless they are evading a block. This looks like an extremely minor content dispute that does not require admin intervention at this time. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 22:06, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

He harassed me in the talk page with racial comments,he seems to be a politicaly motivated troll. Io5678 (talk) 22:15, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

He has created three accounts in a span of four to five days. Also,each of his account has only one edit. Io5678 (talk) 22:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

If you could provide the names of those accounts that would be helpful. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 01:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Do you mean the material that admin Bbb23 restored? It appears to be sourced. The IPs message on your talk page may not be the politest but it doesn't rise to harassment. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 05:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

This editor also went to three different editors' user talk pages asking for those edits to be revision deleted which seems like an odd thing for a 4 day old account to know about. They have also been edit-warring and justifying by saying the other editors were sockpuppets (with no evidence). Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I blocked them. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 07:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello, the sockpuppet account against which Io5678 is complaining is not sockpuppet account, but since I don't have wikipedia account, & I do directly edit page, my IP address (which fluctuates as per net service provider) is displayed. I haven't added anything new but only restored information with proper references which other two admins Bbb23, Yoshi24517 also agreed & restored, which Io5678 removed withouth proper justification. In his talk page I only mentioned him as andhbhakt which means blind follower of political party or ideology & I live in province where uddhav thackeray was governing, so I know about his popularity. & by crying harassment he has vindicated me. Anyways, the article is properly fixed at this moment & I thank Bbb23, Yoshi24517, CambridgeBayWeather|Uqaqtuq for putting proper inputs as well as restraining Io5678 from making unconstructive edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.233.118.11 (talk) 10:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I actually asked for their evidence of sockpuppetry because "my political opponent must be a sockpuppet" is a thing that sockpuppets say, pretty reliably, especially with Indian politics. And, well, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mlnx. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

User:Megasteel33 violating WP:NPA

See Special:Diff/1256033647. Kcmastrpc (talk) 22:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

What you consider a personal attack might not be to others. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 23:44, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Calling someone a misogynist becaude they disagree with them is a personal attack. I might be out of date with the status of the investigation into Brands behaviour, but there hasn't been a conviction. Yet. Knitsey (talk) 23:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Calling another editor a misogynist is a personal attack. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I've warned them and given a BLP CTOP alert. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, SFR. Kcmastrpc (talk) 00:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

What to do with apparent unsourced material

An another user, going by the username "Kwamikagami" removes (my) additions of the "citations needed" template; Also continuously reverts the removal of uncited material, which I removed on the basis that the removed material was completely unsourced, as per Wikipedia:Content removal. The article of topic is the Origin of Hangul article, where this whole part of a section is completely unsourced. (this is the article's part where the user is arguing for being sourced)

Text about the origin of hangul

"" Although the Hunmin jeong-eum haerye (hereafter Haerye) explains the design of the consonantal letters in terms of articulatory phonetics, it also states that Sejong adapted them from the enigmatic 古篆字 "Gǔ Seal Script". The identity of this script has long been puzzling. The primary meaning of the character 古 gǔ is "old", so 古篆字 gǔ zhuànzì has traditionally been interpreted as "Old Seal Script", frustrating philologists, because the Korean alphabet bears no functional similarity to Chinese 篆字 zhuànzì seal scripts. However the character 古 gǔ also functions as a phonetic component of 蒙古 Měnggǔ "Mongol". Indeed, records from Sejong's day played with this ambiguity, joking that "no one is older (more 古 gǔ) than the 蒙古 Měng-gǔ". From palace records that 古篆字 gǔ zhuànzì was a veiled reference to the 蒙古篆字 měnggǔ zhuànzì "Mongol Seal Script", that is, a formal variant of the Mongol ʼPhags-pa alphabet of the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368) that had been modified to look like the Chinese seal script, and which had been an official script of the empire.[citation needed] There were ʼPhags-pa manuscripts in the Korean palace library from the Yuan Dynasty government, including some in the seal-script form, and several of Sejong's ministers knew the script well. If this was the case, Sejong's evasion on the Mongol connection can be understood in light of the political situation in the Ming Dynasty. The topic of the recent Mongol domination of China, which had ended just 75 years earlier, was politically sensitive, and both the Chinese and Korean literati regarded the Mongols as barbarians with nothing to contribute to a civilized society.[citation needed] It is postulated that the Koreans adopted five core consonant letters from ʼPhags-pa, namely ㄱ g [k], ㄷ d [t], ㅂ b [p], ㅈ j [ts], and ㄹ l [l]. These were the consonants basic to Chinese phonology, rather than the graphically simplest letters (ㄱ g [k], ㄴ n [n], ㅁ m [m], and ㅅ s [s]) taken as the starting point by the Haerye. A sixth letter, the null initial ㅇ, was invented by Sejong. The rest of the consonants were developed through featural derivation from these six, essentially as described in the Haerye; a resemblance to speech organs was an additional motivating factor in selecting the shapes of both the basic letters and their derivatives.[citation needed] Although several of the basic concepts of the Korean alphabet may have been inherited from Indic phonology through the ʼPhags-pa script, such as the relationships among the homorganic consonants, Chinese phonology played a major role. Besides the grouping of letters into syllables, in functional imitation of Chinese characters, Ledyard argues that[citation needed] it was Chinese phonology, not Indic, that determined which five consonants were basic, and were therefore to be retained from ʼPhags-pa. These included the plain stop letters, ꡂ g [k] for ㄱ g [k], ꡊ d [t] for ㄷ d [t], and ꡎ b [p] for ㅂ b [p], which were basic to Chinese theory, but which represented voiced consonants in the Indic languages and were not basic in the Indic tradition. The other two letters were the plain sibilant ꡛ s [s] for ㅈ j [ts] (ㅈ was pronounced [ts] in the fifteenth century, as it still is in North Korea) and the liquid ꡙ l [l] for ㄹ l [l]. In order to maintain the Chinese convention of initial and rime, Sejong and his ministers needed a null symbol to refer to the lack of a consonant with an initial vowel. He chose the circle ㅇ with the subsequent derivation of the glottal stop ㆆ ʼ [ʔ], by adding a vertical top stroke by analogy with the other stops, and the aspirate ㅎ h [h], parallel the account in the Haerye. (Perhaps the reason he created a new letter rather than adopting one from ʼPhags-pa was that it was awkward to write these Chinese initials in ʼPhags-pa, where ㅇ and ㆆ were both written as digraphs beginning with y, ꡭꡝ and ꡗꡖ.) However, Ledyard's explanation[citation needed] of the letter ㆁ ng [ŋ] differs from the Haerye account; he sees it as a fusion of velar ㄱ g and null ㅇ, reflecting its variable pronunciation. The Korean alphabet was designed not just to write Korean, but to accurately represent Chinese. Many Chinese words historically began with [ŋ], but by Sejong's day this had been lost in many regions of China, and was silent when these words were borrowed into Korean, so that [ŋ] only remained at the middle and end of Korean words. The expected shape of a velar nasal, the short vertical stroke (⃓) that would be left by removing the top stroke of ㄱ g, had the additional problem that it would have looked almost identical to the vowel ㅣ i [i]. Sejong's solution solved both problems: The vertical stroke left from ㄱ g was added to the null symbol ㅇ to create ㆁ ng, iconically capturing both regional pronunciations as well as being easily legible. Eventually the graphic distinction between the two silent initials ㅇ and ㆁ was lost, as they never contrasted in Korean words. Another letter composed of two elements to represent two regional pronunciations, now obsolete, was ㅱ, which transcribed the Chinese initial 微. This represented either m or w in various Chinese dialects, and was composed of ㅁ [m] plus ㅇ. In ʼPhags-pa, a loop under a letter, ꡧ, represented [w] after vowels, and Ledyard proposes[citation needed] this rather than the null symbol was the source of the loop at the bottom, so that the two components of ㅱ reflected its two pronunciations just as the two components of ㆁ ng did. The reason for suspecting that this derives from ʼPhags-pa ꡧ w is that the entire labio-dental series of both ʼPhags-pa and the hangul, used to transcribe the Chinese initials 微非敷 w, v, f, have such composite forms, though in the case of ʼPhags-pa these are all based on the letter ꡜ h (ꡤ etc.), while in hangul, which does not have an h among its basic consonants, they are based on the labial series ㅁ m, ㅂ b, ㅍ p. An additional letter, the 'semi-sibilant' ㅿ z, now obsolete, has no explanation in either Ledyard or the Haerye. It also had two pronunciations in Chinese, as a sibilant and as a nasal (approximately [ʑ] and [ɲ]) and so, like ㅱ for [w] ~ [m] and ㆁ for ∅ ~ [ŋ], may have been a composite of existing letters. As a final piece of evidence, Ledyard notes[citation needed] that, with two exceptions, hangul letters have the simple geometric shapes expected of invention: ㄱ g [k] was the corner of a square, ㅁ m [m] a full square, ㅅ s [s] a chevron, ㅇ a circle. In the Hunmin Jeong-eum, before the influence of the writing brush made them asymmetrical, these were purely geometric. The exceptions were ㄷ d [t] and ㅂ b [p], which had more complex geometries and were two of the forms adopted from ʼPhags-pa. For example, ㄷ d [t] wasn't a simple half square, but even in the Hunmin Jeong-eum had a lip protruding from the upper left corner, just as ʼPhags-pa ꡊ d did, and as Tibetan ད d did before that. If the ʼPhags-pa theory is valid, then the graphic base of Hangul consonants is part of the great family of alphabets that spread from the Phoenician alphabet, through Aramaic, Brāhmī, and Tibetan (though the derivation of Brahmi from Aramaic/Phoenician is also tenuous; see the Semitic-model hypothesis for Brahmi). However, this is only one component of its derivation.""

This section of the article has had the "More citations needed section" template up since June 2019, alongside it being plastered with the template way before I first got there, and by the looks of it the user reverting my removals & and my previous "citations needed" edits has been asserting for this "theory" of the section since 2008, while reverting any previous attempts of the removal of non-sourced material by other users. I have tried talking to this user with no results; The user claims that the article is cited and that I have no grounds for content removal/flagging. I believe that this would be unsourced and also very speculative material - and would like to either remove the material on the basis that it is unsourced, or at least put citations needed tags on dubious claims, but as I am new to Wikipedia, I would very much like to request for an admin to shed some light on this. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daldidandal (talk • contribs) 23:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I don't know what you did, but a lot of glitches were preventing me from replying on your post. I'll look into it, and also make sure to sign your comments. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 00:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi! Not admin, but experienced-ish user here: if you remove the material, and the user reverts it, the best thing to do next is to start a discussion on the talk page (Talk:Origin of Hangul) about the content, and inform them that unsourced material shouldn't be introduced back without a citation. Ideally, you could try to get a third opinion to build consensus on what to do with the material, who might be able to find sources or agree with its removal. Since the discussion has instead been spread between both of your talk pages, it makes it a bit harder to follow for third parties, although this isn't a very big deal.

In terms of behavior, you have both been slowly edit-warring on the article to some extent, and edit-warring isn't constructive even if you are in the right. Kwamikagami's removal of {{citation needed}} tags and re-addition of unsourced content is more concerning, although the simultaneous change you made in the translation of Sejong's quote should be explained. Also, calling the other user "vandal" in an edit summary isn't necessary (on Wikipedia, vandalism has a very specific definition, of edits unambiguously intended to disrupt the encyclopedia, rather than simply non-constructive edits). Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 00:12, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

As an aside, the ideal template to use for unsourced sections is {{unsourced|section}} (or {{more citations needed|section}} if the amount of citations is insufficient), just below the section header, rather than adding {{citation needed}} in the section header. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 00:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I think {{unreferenced section}} is preferred to {{unreferenced|section}}, since it categorizes differently. jlwoodwa (talk) 00:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, never realized they were different! Since I'm pretty sure I've often seen people use {{unreferenced|section}}, I wonder if it could be worth making the template categorize articles appropriately when given that first parameter? Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 00:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Seconding Chaotic Enby's comment of starting a discussion on the article talk page. Also, why the sudden jump to ANI?--Kansas Bear (talk) 01:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• I'm not familiar with Kwamikagami but I see that they've had an account for 20 years now. I'd like to hear their response to this complaint before making a judgment. But, I agree, you can't go wrong starting a discussion on the article talk page. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

  The reason I reverted was that Daldidandal repeatedly falsified the quotation. Putting the cn tags in the section headers also defaced the article, so I reverted everything -- it's their job to fix such things, but Daldidandal responded by blanking content instead. That seemed petulant. Anyway, Daldidandal's claim that the blanked material was unsourced is false: the sources are all in the reference section, it's just a matter of going through and citing them for individual statements. I no longer have print copies accessible to cite page numbers, and anyway for the next few weeks I've got other things going on. — kwami (talk) 07:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Not directly related to this issue, but Daldidandal is being similarly disruptive at Hangul by repeatedly reinstating their version despite multiple reversions by other users (see the history here). Theknightwho (talk) 13:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Racism and hate speach

2600:8800:218F:2D00:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) Over the last year 2600:8800:218F:2D00:0:0:0:0/64 has been making unnoticed minor not forum talk page posts, but in the last month they have stepped up to racism (against Argentinians[126], against Koreans[127]), saying the subject of the article "suffered from autistic retardation", praising the Rivers of Blood speech[128], and white supremacy[129]. I've left notice at their last IP address [130]. I can't see that they've been warned before, so I brought this here rather than AIV. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 01:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

There was some not bad mixed in so I went with a 3 month anonblock. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

New editor (Zachapertio) may need an admin warning or a block to cool down

Zachapertio (talk · contribs) is an account that has been created in August (now at 300+ edits) and their second and third edits were already problematic (edit warring). They came to my attention just now, as few days ago they violated talk page guidelines reverting, with no rationale a perfectly fine response (or a set of three, to be exact) to a warning that my student received few days ago on their talk page.

I assumed it is an innocent mistake by a new user, so I reverted them with an edit summary and left them a friendly but firm warning message to be careful on their talk.

In response, they reverted my warning removing it from their talk page with no edit summary, reverted my revert removing my students responses again, and left me a "final warning for vandalism message".

I don't have time to review their edits in more detail, but I see in September they got a warning from @Robert McClenon, which they promptly deleted as well.

I think that editor is WP:NOTHERE, and is playing as an admin or moderator with way too little experience and wrong attitude (see their numerous edits at userspace talk, with many warnings and such). I am not sure if a warning to refrain from such actions until they get much more experience will be enough, a shorter or longer admin or community block for them to cool down (for few weeks of years...) might be warranted. _{Piotrus at Hanyang| reply here} 01:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Nothing else they are doing seems particularly weird, but I agree that the user talk reverts make no sense. They are free to remove whatever they want from their own talk page, but not someone else's. And issuing a vandalism warning to you is clearly just plain wrong. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 01:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Looking at some of their non-template messages, it doesn't seem like their English skills are very strong. That doesn't have any influence those strange user talk page edits but I thought I'd mention it. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I know that consensus can change, but I know there was a consensus years ago that cool-down blocks backfired too often to be useful. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 04:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Pretty sure cool-down blocks have never been a thing the community supports. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 05:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Not sure if i got blocked? Zach (talk to me) 07:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Since you can post here, User:Zachapertio, you are not blocked. But you should read over the comemnts here and provide an explanation for any questions about your editing that have arisen. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 08:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Legal Threat

Special:diff/1256092285 Came across disruptive edit during recent changes patrol, decided to look into user's contribs and found this. Don't know how serious this could be, reported it just in case. VolatileAnomaly (talk) 05:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Well, on the one hand, this is a legal threat but on the other, the comment that this editor's descendants will one day sue Wikimedia is vague and far off in the distant future. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

  Definitely agree, based on other contribs I'd even suspect user is just looking for attention. If it's not a big deal I'm absolutely fine with leaving things as is. VolatileAnomaly (talk) 07:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

  I will keep my quivering in fear to a dull roar, especially since I'll be in the grave by then myself. Ravenswing 07:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Havaa Fitzgerald

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

HAVAA FITZGERALD (talk · contribs · logs · block log) was blocked at the end of September for vandalism of CNN related pages and abusing WP:LOUT. 2A00:A040:192:6D00:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) is now posting the same nonsense, including adding 'Havaa Fitzgerald' to CNN articles and templates [131][132][133][134][135]. I would have just informed the blocking admin as this appears, but they appear to have just gone on a wikibreak. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Nevermind they have been blocked for a week, after an RFPP request. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

November 2024 Amsterdam attacks / Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam

We have two articles about the same current Palstine/Israel event, November 2024 Amsterdam attacks and Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam. We have at least one IP editing the second page, despite being warned about the "Introduction to contentious topics" rules on their talk page. Page protection or admins keeping an eye on the pages may help. Fram (talk) 10:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I've ECP Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam and restored the redirect. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 11:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I think this IP needs a temporary block (they haven't stopped). Nythar (💬-🍀) 11:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Gave them a time out. Thanks for the heads up. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 12:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk page access revoked after further disruption. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 16:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Fram (talk) 11:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Continuous personal attacks

A user @GeebaKhap: keeps attacking me personally with the words like: you accuse others (when I said one thing in general tone without referring anyone), makes no sense, another blatant lie, when I trying to reach a consensus over the dispute on Talk:Head_of_state#NPOV. They also added their own words in my RfC statement to portray the things which I didn't said, which disrupts the consensus process. I tried to ignore first but it feels out of limit now. JoshuaJ28 (talk) 12:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

1. [136] You slapped an edit-warring template on my talkpage after a single revert of your undiscussed change.
2. [137] You tagged me on the article talk page and accused me of "edit war[ring] over adding images of personal favourites", after I had already ceased reverting and opened a discussion on the talkpage.
3. [138] Literally hours later, you stated you "didn't accuse anyone of 'playing favourites".

I will let other Wikipedians be the judge of whether statement number 3 is truthful given statements number 1 and 2. If it is a personal attack to point out untrue statements, I will refrain from doing so. I have not personally attacked you, I think your conduct is disingenuous, particularly where you keep insisting your preferred version – which you instituted in September – is a long-term establish consensus. WP:RFCNEUTRAL requires the RfC question to be "neutral and brief". I think we should both back off and let the RfC play out to settle the content dispute. GeebaKhap (talk) 12:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Editing the comments of other users is not allowed as per WP:OTHERSCOMMENTS. JoshuaJ28 (talk) 12:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I also note that JoshuaJ28 has a history at ANI regarding this topic. I reiterate that I am happy to refrain from any further contact with this user as I don't think it will be productive. Thanks. `GeebaKhap (talk) 12:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Here also you're continuing personal attacks on me. Please follow Wikipedia:Civility editors should always treat each other with consideration and respect. It's not a place to fight. JoshuaJ28 (talk) 12:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

JoshuaJ28 has now suggested that I was also personally attacking them, and is accusing GeebaKhap of socking. I don't remember the AN/I report GeebaKhap linked above, but apparently there I noted this poor vandalism warning template. GeebaKhap should not be editing the RfC as they did, and there may be a language issue at play, but there is a pattern of poor interactions by JoshuaJ28 here. CMD (talk) 14:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Please don't seek revenge in this issue. We don't even know each other personally. We all came here to contribute wikipedia in collaborative manner. I already told you to stop that discussion there, but you're taking that here, to hurt me more. I can't take it anymore. Feeling emotional and just want to die. Please leave me alone. It's exhaustive and depressing. I'm done with Wikipedia. Retiring permanently. Peace. JoshuaJ28 (talk) 15:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm also involved, so I'll chime in with that I don't think any of this rises to ANI at the moment. I'm starting to be concerned by Joshua's behavior, but I can also understand the IP suspicion to an extent, and the RFC this is related to (setting WP:RFCNEUTRAL aside) is progressing and the current emerging consensus will solve the problem. Tessaract2^Hi! 15:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Disruptive behaviour

User:Oddsourceuser was created on November 6 2024 and they have been edit-warring repeatedly with clumsy POV edits for the past couple of days (contribs). They have received several warnings (talk) but it doesn't seem like they are willing to interact with another editor. They have been using the IP 141.98.142.45 to edit-war and restore their reverted edits, where they also received warnings (IP talk). See article Ladochori, created by Oddsourceceuser and editied by the IP (history); more edit warring in articles Agia, Preveza, Parga, Dhermi, Sotiris Ninis, Palase etc. I think you get the point. Piccco (talk) 12:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

This user was investigated at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Renald.Bejtja with a finding of "possible", though no action was taken. The IP address is a proxy and I've blocked the IP address on that basis. I've not personally looked at the technical data. --Yamla (talk) 12:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Yamla Thank you for your quick intervention. Is there going to be any action for the main account? Together with the IP, they've made almost 90 edits in just a few days, mostly disruptive, and there's no indication that this behaviour is going to stop after several reverts and notices. Piccco (talk) 12:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, the edit-warring by Oddsourceuser is continuing across multiple articles [139], with edit summaries that do not inspire confidence. Khirurg (talk) 14:41, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I think we need to wait for them to have an opportunity to respond, which means it most likely won't be me taking further action. --Yamla (talk) 15:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Legal threat after request for proper sourcing

I've been trying to encourage Johnstormzand to properly source a number of claims made on the Norm Augustinus article. It became apparent that they have a conflict of interest in editing this article, that they have minimized. However, I didn't think the situation was irredeemable. The article contained a number of claims that were exaggerated and/or not supported by sources. So I tagged and corrected as much as I could. I also noted that sources have questioned the accuracy of some of what Augustinus has claimed in the past, so second-hand assurances from someone who claims to represent him are not a reliable source.

Johnstormzand's response was to demand that the article be deleted and that he has passed on things to his attorney. They seem to be very much personally involved with the subject and take as an insult any suggestion that what they've added to the article needs to be verifiable. They also don't understand that asking that something should be cited, is not the same as saying it isn't believed. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 16:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I have blocked them for the legal threat. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)^{Talk to Me!} 16:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Disruptive Editing of Current Events by Ivanvector

User User:Ivanvector is making disruptive editing initially claiming a source was needed but then refusing to admit a source was added and is continuously undoing the edits that were made with reliable sources.

Anyone's free to review my work at Portal:Current events/2024 November 8 regarding sourcing for the blurb about the Amsterdam football attacks. I reviewed the CNN source provided and did not see anything that supported the IP's assertion that the attacks against the Israeli football club were premeditated, so I removed that section. The IP also added a France24 video source which I could not review (firewalled) but it appeared to be a speech by the Israeli prime minister, which I did not expect to be a reliably neutral source for this, but if anyone wants to review that and tell me I'm wrong, feel free. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:16, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

A source by France 24 was added and ignored by Ivanvector 142.189.54.128 (talk) 18:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I see this was mentioned, the bias is clearly stuck with Ivanvector and I suspect antisemitism being a reason behind why, being on one side of the issue does not imply lying or cheating on the issue. 142.189.54.128 (talk) 18:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I just said I could not view the video. Do you have a link to a transcript? Also, please withdraw that personal attack. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

This is a content dispute that could be dealt with on the relevant talk page. This is not urgent, chronic, or intractable. Per Ivan, if that personal attack isn't immediately revoked we have a different action to discuss. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 18:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I am rarely urgent, but both chronic and intractible fit well. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

That is mot the point though it is corrected and no personal attack was made. 142.189.54.128 (talk) 18:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

You not being able to view it is not a reason to remove the content altogether, you could gather information from the text not the video. I will remove it if you deny you are antisemitic only then it is suggested you could see that as a personal attack. 142.189.54.128 (talk) 18:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP for personal attacks; claiming that you'll remove the comment if they agree it is not true does not negate the original statement. Happy for any other admin to discuss this further with the IP but I'm not having them hold an accusation of anti-semitism at ransom. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 18:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)