Talk:Umayyad Caliphate/Archive 1

Archive 1

The Misuse of the Word 'Arab'

The use of the word Arab is far too liberal and not specific enough for an encyclopedia - as the Umayyad Caliphate was Syrian and therefore likely what has been called Arabic for was a a derivative of the Syrian language. In the Bible there are frequent references to Damascus but at no time does it put Arab and Damascus or Arab and Syrian together.

The Syrian Umayyad was important to the development of Islam - as they compiled the Koran - as the original Arabian text - was written in Old Arabic of which few could understand - source Encyclopedia Britannica - under the comparatively modern Syria - Islamic architecture and calligraphy were developed. In addition the five pillars of Islam were established and Islamic law was written drawing mainly from Persian and Armenian law.

This work was done only after North Africa and Spain were conquered - supposedly for Islam - whether these lands were conquered in the name of Islam - is questionable - as the Umayyad ruling that everyone in the conquered lands should speak Arabia /more Syrian came in order to spite the Byzantine rulers who were the previous conquers of these sought after lands of the Roman Empire - under the ruling all reminders of Byzantine had to be removed - all coins' writing changed to the new Middle Eastern style. As well as all were encouraged largely through political gain to take Islam. But not before the Syrian Umayyad prepared the Koran so that it could be accepted - in these mainly Christian and tribal lands. And the Koran still exists in this form today.

So maybe the people of North African might consider calling themselves Syrian rather than Arab - The Island of Gibraltar is named after the first Islamic conqueror Tariq - who was himself a Syrian!

Perhaps the Umayyah was the first of the non-Arab caliphates —Preceding unsigned comment added by Egyptoo (talk • contribs) 21:10, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Your comment has so many factual errors that it's useless to even try and itemize them, I'll just say that Tariq was not Syrian, he was a berber from Morocco.Yazan (talk) 16:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with Yazan. I don't know where you get this information, but the Ummayads were close allies and friends with the prophet during his life, and didn't have to compile the Koran in order to get favor as you claim. In fact, the complilation was initiated by the first Caliph Abu Bakr. Also, the five pillars of Islam were existent since the early years of Islam, and certainly not after the conquering of Spain and North Africa. And the Ummayads can be said to be a branch of the Quraish tribe, so they're not Syrian. I don't really know where you're getting all your thoughts on this, but they are very far off. AbbasAD (talk) 09:14, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Miscelanneous

I took the spelling of names in the list from Albert Hourani's A History of the Arab Peoples, ISBN 1567312160. I fully realize that any transliteration from the Arabic is fraught with peril. If you decide to change it, please change it as universally as possible! --MichaelTinkler

Hmmm! I think the images are a bit out of topic and I placed one myself. I'll handle this later, unless someone does something before. --zelidar 21:10, 2005 Apr 9 (UTC)

in general

This could be a lot worse but it is filled with minor errors and has more Shi'ite pov than it should (eg the canard about 'Umayyah). The general layout is poor and I can see no reason for listing Banu Umayya companions and successors. Since when has the tribal affiliations of either been of any interest? I have made no changes. I am planting this here to see if I get any comments then in a few months I will start actual editing. Kleinecke 16:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the "origins" section way exceeds the proper extent of the article and needs some major editing. -afdoug 19 sept 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Afdoug (talk • contribs) 04:02, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Banu

well, al other tribes are called Banu x, so i thought i whould be better if it followed the same principle..hmmmm....

--Striver 14:07, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Map of the empire

I think it would benefit the article greatly. Ksenon 18:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The firs map wich show the caliphate extension in red is highly inaqurate because the following reasons:

1. Crete wasn't conquered until the year 824 by the andalusian exiliates. 2. Sicily was invaded by the arabs in 652 but they were quickly repulsed, the trully conquest of that island began in 827 under the hand of north africans. 3. Canary Islands wasn't part of the Caliphate, in fact never was conquered by any muslim power.

I will talk with the guy that posted if he want to correct the map, but until that happen, i will delete the image.

--Bentaguayre 17:33, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

the fantastic four

This page mentions: four rightly guided Caliphs (Abu Bakr, Omar, Usman, Ali)

The History of Islam page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_islam) mentions: the regim of Caliphate of Muhammad's Companions (Abubakar,Umar,Usman and Ali).

I almost missed the similarity. Is one of these "translations" (who the four are, and their names) more often used?

The most conventional transliteration for these names would be: Abu-Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman and 'Ali. The hyphen in Abu-Bakr is optional. I am going to change the article to use these. Kleinecke 16:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Muawiya/Muwawiya/Muawiyah

Are all these names three different people or is the author of this really bad at proofreading?

I'm no expert but I'm guessing that they are the same person. All three have the same pronounciation: Moo-wha-ee-yah

They are all the same name. There was a Muawiyah I and a Muawiyah II in the Umayyad Caliphate. The pronounciation goes like this: Moo-aw-wee-yah. HaterofIgnorance (talk) 15:29, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

rename

{{rename|Banu Umayyah}} (striking old request, removes from category Patstuart^talk|edits 00:26, 26 December 2006 (UTC))

see Banu Quraish to see how all the other sub-clans are named. --Striver 17:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

No objections? --Striver 02:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Umayyad is more popular to the English reader. --Islamic 14:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that is true. But that could be solved by having a redirect, so everyione does find its way here, and explain the etymology in a section of its own. Don't you agree that its better to name it after a tranlisteration, so it follows the precedens of the other tribes? --Striver 16:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

A redirect from one name to the other would be best. But which name is fundamental? I believe the importance of the Umayyads is as a dynasty rather than as a "tribe" (they were at best a family) and dynasties are not generally called Banu anything in English. So I say redirect Banu Umayyad to this article. Kleinecke 16:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

History of Iran

There is an entire list about the history of Iran in this article, and i don't see an special relation for that privilege. I have deleted it.

-TIMMY YHE NEUTRON BOY

expansion

Have expanded the history section, largely relying on G.R. Hawting, The first dynasty of Islam, 2nd ed. (London, 2000), and removed the expand tag. Comments and corrections most welcome!

I've concentrated mostly on political and military history; a section on culture is still a desideratum --Javits2000 18:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

merger

Normally you would expect either the purals noun Umayyads as the article title or Umayyad dynasty, not the singular adjective Umayyad .S711 15:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

the name of tribe

the name of tribe is Banu Umayyah(Which means sons of Umayyah) not Umayyad

UMAYYAD BRO? 68.47.27.143 (talk) 22:53, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Opinion section

I included the Baha'i theological standpoint on the Umayyads, but as `Abdu'l-Bahá has made the statement as the authoritative standpoint of the religion and has asserted it as a fact as opposed to the opinion I felt the term "standpoint" was more appropriate. I feel a little uncomfortable including it in that section though because it seems to be placing an official standpoint next to general trends of opinion. Any thoughts? Peter Deer (talk) 08:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Me too feel uncomfortable. I demoted it to a new Other religions subsection. The Bahá'í standpoint is an outgroup opinion, like imagininative

Christian standpoint

Christians in general feels like the Umayyad were nice guys, but then generally exclaims

"Umayyad" who?!?

Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 16:03, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Major Blunders - Qusayr Amra was built by Walid I not Walid II

Whoever has said the architectural finds at Qusayr Amra were built in the time of Walid II is seriously out in his dates. Almost all the archaeological books say it was Walid I who built it, and it may have been used by Yazeed II and Walid II also. Given the fact that Walid II's section is dominated by a photo from a palace he did not even build yet which is being ascribed to him, I'd say that's a blunder which should be changed. Any objections? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frank1829 (talk • contribs) 01:04, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

A good idea so long as you cite it to a reliable source. Dougweller (talk) 06:34, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

The map

The map in the infobox is exaggerated. Umayyad caliphate had conquered only a part of Transoxiana and had never conquered north of Transoxiana (ie Syr Darya). The second map in the History section seems more realistic. Although, I don't know much about Umayyad conquests in Africa, by comparing the maps, I can see a similar exaggeration in Africa also.

Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 12:49, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree and i have replaced the fairy tale map with the previous one. --Scoobycentric (talk) 13:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Major mistake in Umayyad genealogy

There is a major mistake in the genealogy proposed for the Umayyads in this page. 'Uthman (the 3rd Caliph) was not Abu Sufyan's brother, but his first cousin once removed. He was the son of Affan, the son of Abu al-'As. This means that Mu'awiya b. Abu Sufyan, who appears in this genealogy as 'Uthman's nephew, was in fact his second cousin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.73.119.206 (talk) 13:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Exactly, the tree needs some work. The tree seems to be mistaken at least near the root. Umayyah had two sons "Abu al-As" and "Harb". Abu al-As had multiple sons, one was "Affan", the Caliph "Uthman" is his son. Another son is "Al-Hakam" as correctly put in the tree. On the other hand, "Abu Sufyan" is the son of "Harb" (who is Jattab?).

Umayyah{----Harb----------Abu Sufyan--Muawiyah
       {----Abu al-As{----Al-Hakam----Marwan I
                     {----Affan-------Uthman

217.225.223.6 (talk) 23:15, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The above is exactly true. In the genealogical tree, at least the following changes should be made: - There is no such person as "Jattab", and this has be taken out. - Uthman (which should not be spelled as "Utman") is not the son of the non-existent "Jattab", but the son of "Affan", who is not shown on the chart. Affan is the son of Abu al-As (already on the chart). - Abu Sufian is not the son of (the non-existent) Jattab, but the son of "Harb", who is not shown on the chart. Harb is the son of Umayyah (already on the chart). - Marwan II's father was not "Al-Himar" as shown, but rather Mohammad. "Al-Himar" (which means a donkey) was a name given to Marwan II himself. The above information is common knowledge and is found all over Wikipedia itself. Also, the genealogical tree of Umayyads in the Arabic Wikipedia shows the information correctly. Esam.zainal (talk) 09:19, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

DNA

Can we add a new section for the DNA regarding Banu Umayyed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.229.84 (talk) 08:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

DNA regarding Banu Umayyad

i read the some people think that Banu Umayyed don't belong to the same tribe and they are whatever.. Banu Umayyed offspring made DNA and the result was J1 .. if you want to make sure contact the Arabian DNA' admin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.226.90 (talk) 08:23, 23 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.229.84 (talk)

Arabian DNA' admin? Really? Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 15:58, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

File:Flag_of_Afghanistan_(1880–1901).svg or File:3by2white.svg?

Why does the flag that links to the previous caliphate also be the flag of Afghanistan in 1880-1901, long after the early days of Islam?

File:3by2white.svg would be better because the first caliphate had no flag. Flags existed but not every country had one back then(unlike now).

Could someone explain this to me? 216.105.64.140 (talk) 02:21, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Sunni Opinion

What is written on the Sunni opinion is not the Sunni opinion. What is said in the beginning is true, but till this part: "Sunni opinions of the Umayyad dynasty after Muawiyah are dim, viewing many of the rulers as sinners and the cause of great tribulation in the Ummah[citation needed]. For example, in the section concerning Quran 17:60[23] in the exegesis by al-Suyuti entitled Dur al-Manthur, the author writes that there exist traditions which describe the Umayyads as "the cursed tree". There are some exceptions to this, for example Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz is praised as one of the greatest Muslim rulers after the four Rightly Guided Caliphs. Only one Umayyad ruler (Caliphs of Damascus), Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz, is unanimously praised by Sunni sources for his devout piety and justice and for his efforts to spread Islam and his efforts to undo the wrongdoings of his fore-bearers eventually led to internal hostilities within the dynasty that ultimately lead to his poisoning in the year 720." This lacks sources, and is actually the Shiaa opinion of the Sunni opinion. And I have sources to prove otherwise. For example the verse 17:60 according to Sunnis it is not about Muawiyah's lineage. It is a Shiaa opinion not a Sunni. Here what is the actual Sunni opinion: Sunni view Muawiyah as good man, who made his own Ijtihad during the First Fitna, which may have turned out wrong according to them, and they point out the fact that he was one of the writers of the Quran. But they also criticize the change from a Caliphate to a monarchy, and criticize the Mawali system. Generally, They view the Umayyad regime as a good time, especially during Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz ruling, that became bad near its ending. --BelalSaid (talk) 22:38, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Map Update to include Somalia

The Map needs to be updated as it excludes Somalia. --Inayity (talk) 14:07, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

You also need a reference to indicate that Somalia was geographically part of the Caliphate! Faizan (talk) 07:08, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Inayity. The map needs an update to add Somalia, and this is a source: [1].

The map also has several mistakes. It excludes Kashgar[2]which was conquered by Qutayba ibn Muslim Al-Bahili.((there are many sources for this, for example: the famous historical source-book Al-Bidaya wa'l-Nihaya,Ibn Kathir, page 1406)) After the conquest of Kashgar, Qutayba sent a delegation to the Chinese emperor under the leadership of Habira bin Mashmarj Kilbai with the message: "Accept Islamic rule or the horses of the Islamic warriors will run over China".[3]

Another mistake in this map is that it does exclude Galicia and the Balearic islands!

Iberia in 750.

It also doesn't include Rhodes.[4]

In my point of view, the map has several mistakes and is not currently accurate! what makes it worse is the statement mentioned under the image in the information box: "The Umayyad Caliphate at its greatest extent."!--IMaxCool (talk) 16:45, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Post 750 dynasty (Spain)

I am getting ready to write a large addition to the Cordoba section but am vacillating on where to place it. My first thoughts based on the books Encyclopedia Britannica that I am initially reading is to place them in either a new section of Umayyad Dynasty or to create an Arab Umayyad Dynasty in Spain or something similar page. However there are other options such as Calphate of Cordoba or even Al-Andalus, which I actually think is the worst of the options. I am going to think on it and see what others in the know have to say. I also brought home a bunch of books on African History and Asian History but forget that Spain has a lot of involvement in the History of North Africa for a period, so I will need to go to my University Library and get more books. Anyway please chime in, let me know what you think. If I don't get a lot of strong opinions one way or the other I will just be BOLD, and do what I think is best from all of my sources. speednat (talk) 06:01, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

The map of Iberia in 750 is incorrect. It is really the situation in 719 with the fall of the last Visigothic province Septimania. In 739 an uprising drove the Muslim army out of northwest Spain. The northwest then joined the Kingdom of Asturias.

Galicia (The North West Spain mentioned) fell in in Abdul-Rahman I’s reign, where he was busy with rebellions and the Christians took these lands and reached to the River Min. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kordobaaa (talk • contribs) 21:46, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Section deleted by user Flyte35

User:Flyte35 has deleted the following:[5]

The [[Conquest of Mecca]] while overwhelming for the Umayyads for the time being, further fueled their hatred towards the Hashimites {{POV-statement|date=May 2013}}; this would later result in battles between [[Muawiyah I]] and [[Ali]] and then killing of [[Husayn ibn Ali]] along with his family and a few friends on the orders of [[Yazid ibn Muawiyah]] at the [[Battle of Karbala]].<ref>Britannica Encyclopedia, Karbala', Battle of</ref>

I think that this was a good deletion. When I checked the citation Encyclopedia Britannica, Battle of Karbalā, it did not support the statements. The citation appears to be bogus.--Toddy1 (talk) 19:30, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Living descendants

Are there any living descendants of the Umayyad Caliphs? Komitsuki (talk) 14:10, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Your connection for inter-languages are WRONG!

You have separated the topic into 2 different language groups. There are 72 languages, but not all of them connected. You have made 2 separete groups in such a way that if you are in english page, you cannot reach to all of the other languages that is German and French, and if you are German and French, then you cannot reach to English page, because you have not connected all 72 languages together. I have corrected TWICE, but you have reverted!!68.100.160.250 (talk) 04:20, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Can you tell me how to reach German or French pages of Umayyad Caliphate when you are reading the English version. You have reverted my corrections TWICE! Now this time you have to revert your incorrect edits ıf you can, I don't believe that you can do it properly. You see you are not CAREFUL enough.68.100.160.250 (talk) 04:43, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

All pages of Ummayads in different languages should get linked!! Except TWO of them: ONE is the Ummayad Family Tree in English, and the OTHER is Ummayad Family tree in Turkish, those TWO of them must remain connected with each other 68.100.160.250 (talk) 05:26, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q45646 & http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8575586#sitelinks-wikipedia These pages should get MERGED!!! Because they are the SAME. I have had them CORRECTED twice but User talk:Maqivi reverted my CORRECTIONS!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.160.250 (talk) 06:45, 24 December 2013 (UTC) .68.100.160.250 (talk) 03:44, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q12536#sitelinks-wikipedia. You can see that in the case of Abbasid Caliphate, all articles in 70 different languages are linked. 68.100.160.250 (talk) 03:58, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Your connections for the languages in Ummayads are WRONG!!! All pages of Ummayads in different languages should get linked!! Except TWO of them: ONE is the Ummayad Family Tree in English, and the OTHER is Ummayad Family tree in Turkish, those TWO of them must remain connected with each other .68.100.160.250 (talk) 03:46, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure what you think the problem is. On the left hand side of the Umayyad Caliphate page are inter-wiki links. For example:

• Alemannisch links to als:Umayyaden

If you think that some of these interwiki links are wrong, what I suggest you do is to make a list of the ones that you think are the wrong ones. If you look at the format I used above *Alemannisch links to [[:als:Umayyaden]] you will see how to do it. It would be helpful to list both what you consider the error and what you consider that it should link to. For example *Lilliputian links to [[:Lil:Umayyisch]] and should link to [[:Lil:Umayyaden]]. (Lilliputian is just an example.)

By the way, have I understood your point correctly? --Toddy1 (talk) 12:09, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I explain once more again about UMAYYADS & Umayyad Chaliphate http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q45646 & http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8575586#sitelinks-wikipedia The articles are linked to those TWO Separete pages, which should be merged to ONE page only!!! 55 languages in one page and 19 on the other page, which is wrong. Total number of article is 74 and all should be in the same page so that people can go from one language to the other.

1. Now http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q45646 :Umayyad Caliphate (Q45646) has 55 articles
2. http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8575586#sitelinks-wikipedia :Umayyad Caliphate (Q8575586) has 18 articles how will you go to (Umayyade-kalifatet in dansk) if you are reading (Umayyad Caliphate in english)
3. all 73 articles should be in one page i.e. in the page of http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q45646 :Umayyad Caliphate (Q45646)
4. I did this correction twice, they reverted my corrections, and now they BLOCKED!!!
5. BUT these links are still INCORRECT!!!!!!!!!!!!68.100.160.250 (talk)161.253.50.23 (talk) 19:50, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I have posted an item on Wikidata:Interwiki conflicts#Umayyad Caliphate (Q45646)/Umayyad Caliphate (Q8575586). Trying to deal with this was a thoroughly horrid experience. I do not know why they changed to this difficult and complicated system - actually I do know - the "improvers" love difficult and complicated systems :( --Toddy1 (talk) 22:29, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Robert Monk posted the following response on Wikidata:

"These items cannot be merged because they represent different things: the first is for the family and the second for the state (caliphate). I've cleaned the properties and moved some of the language links to appropriate items. --Robot Monk (talk) 08:50, 28 December 2013 (UTC)"

If this does not help, please post a response to him on Wikidata:Interwiki conflicts. Please do not post any more messages on my talk page telling me that it is all my fault.--Toddy1 (talk) 09:41, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Ummayads your article Umayyad Caliphate does not match to Ummayads in 45 other languages128.164.157.184 (talk) 23:31, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Umayyad Caliphate You need a separate page for Ummayads such that you can match to the Ummayad in 45 other languages because they don't have a separate page under the title of Umayyad Caliphate 128.164.157.184 (talk) 23:52, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

BECAUSE The Umayyad Caliphate is ONLY prepared in 28 languages

Ummayads/Ummayad/Umayyads/Umayyad/Umayad & Umayyad Caliphate

Ummayads - Your article Umayyad Caliphate does not match to Umayyads in 45 other languages.

Umayyad Caliphate- You need a separate page for Ummayads such that you can match to the Ummayad in 45 other languages because they don't have a separate page under the title of Umayyad Caliphate . 128.164.157.184 (talk) 00:30, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

The problem is solved NOW In 46 Languages, Ummayads topic is prepared! In 28 Languages, Umayyad Caliphate topic is prepared! If you don't redirect Ummayads to Umayyad Caliphate, it is solved for English.128.164.157.184 (talk) 00:39, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

128.164.157.184 (talk) 00:41, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Good reference source

While searching for sources for another article, I found a good reference for the Umayyads here. It could be used to site some information already available here in the article. MezzoMezzo (talk) 11:45, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

plagiarism?

The site http://islamichistory.org/the-umayyads/ contains entire paragraphs from this article (without footnotes and hyperlinks)? Which is the original? Is this a problem? What can be done? TheseusX (talk) 18:02, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

@TheseusX: Given that the blog is unattributed, and that it didn't exist until 2014, it would be a WP:MIRROR. They can be found all over blogs and forums on the web. If you are uncertain, please feel free to contact the blog's 'team' (or possibly one man and his dog) for confirmation. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:40, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: Thanks for the reply! Cool, I learned something. Several things, actually. Inter alia, it wasn't clear to me that the site I stumbled upon was just a blog; on first glance, it appeared more professional. I assumed it was the copy, but the fact that the relevant passages (the section "Historical significance") exist in versions pre-2014 settles the issue, I guess. However, I don't care enough to take any further steps (especially since I haven't contributed anything to this article). TheseusX (talk) 02:18, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

@TheseusX: Not a problem. Wikipedia is WP:NOTCOMPULSORY, therefore none of us are obliged to do more than we're up for. I might get around to contacting whoever runs the blog when I can find some time and ask that they attribute the Wikipedia content to the authors who have worked hard to produce a free resource available to anyone. It's a 'not for profit' site and, judging by the limited activity on the Facebook and Twitter pages, whoever set it up lost interest quite some time ago. Cheers for the heads up, and happy editing in the areas that you'd like to put your energies into! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:16, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Introduction

I find the second paragraph of the introduction a bit out of place in an already-too-long section. It starts off with taxation of various religious groups right after a the history and geography of the empire. I just wanted to see what people think before I even consider changing any of it. a.buchhorn (talk) 22:54, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

@Artur Buchhorn: Agreed. There are literally thousands of articles on historical states, and non of them focus on whether the taxation system was deemed fair or unfair, be it a monarchy, theocracy, or a tribal system. Certainly, there's room enough for taxation in the economy section in the body of the article, but the content is WP:UNDUE for the WP:LEAD. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:48, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Population

Any sources for the 34,000,000 population figure listed in the info box? If not, I will change it to the figure listed in the opening. Jlr3001 (talk) 12:41, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Changed it. If you find source for the 34,000,000, please re-add with source. Jlr3001 (talk) 14:16, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

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Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz was poisoned

Is there any source to prove Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz was actually poisoned? This is a major claim that cannot be left without any reference, as is the case here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.183.40.137 (talk) 13:46, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

the dahlak archipelago in the map

it was supposedly taken by Sulayman ibn Abd al-Malik from Aksum

Recent attempts to change population & area

Please don't change the information while keeping the references that support the old version, and introducing no references to support the new information. Where do these numbers even come from? The sources used support the old information. Note that both caliphates lasted a long time & varied in area. Johnbod (talk) 05:01, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Popov

The citation Popov (2008). History of the Old world. Abagar. p. 102. ISBN 9789544277857. refers to this book. If one looks up a description of the contents at any of a number of different places ([6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]), they all say the same thing:

• Древен Изток
• Древна Гърция
• Македония и елинистическите държави
• Древен Рим
• Древен Запад

In other words, nothing about the Umayyad Caliphate. The claim that this source verifies a population of 68 million in the year 720 is extremely dubious and has been tagged as needing a quote to verify for some time now. I'm removing it entirely now. Don't re-add it without a quote from the source which verifies the claim. TompaDompa (talk) 12:18, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Meaning of Early / Middle / Late Islamic period

Hi. What do the terms Early / Middle / Late Islamic period mean? How are they defined? When do they start and end? They show up in articles about Jordan for instance, but I cannot find a periodisation offering the basic meaning. Are these terms mainstream, are they outdated, can they be used over larger parts of the Muslim world?

I will post this also on other relevant pages. The discussion should be held at Talk:Timeline of Islamic history (so not here). Thanks. Arminden (talk) 15:19, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Muawiyah’s accusation against Ali being “culpable”

Assalamu aleykum Muslim brothers/sisters.

I’d like to bring attention to the fact that under origin, in the part under first fitnah, where it says that Muawiyah accuses Ali of having some culpability in Uthman’s death, that sounds simply untrue, rather it’s probably Shia propaganda. The Sunni books of Hadith and the Sunni historians who uphold the dignity and respect of all Sahaba contain nothing but good of Muawiyah, including the fact that he was full of praise for Ali in multiple accounts. These words of him accusing Ali come from secular historians who have taken perspectives from multiple sources including Shias. Can someone please remove the part which says that Muawiyah accused Ali of being culpable in Uthman’s death?

Jazakallahu Khayr. 92.23.219.34 (talk) 20:17, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Map

Also, a previous user has already mentioned that the Arab Umayyads conquered parts of Somalia, and he gave the sources, but nothing has been done. Please improve the map as it is incorrect. 2A04:4A43:4D7F:CA64:A117:7822:DDBB:9321 (talk) 06:36, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Some sources claim that the Umayyads raided Somalia and/or conquered Mogadishu (e.g. [12], [13], [14]), however no reliable source (that I've seen) includes Somalia in any map of the Umayyad Caliphate, so the current map is representative of what reliable sources show, as Wikipedia is supposed to be. Also, please stop making new talk sections about the same issue. R Prazeres (talk) 17:28, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Map is missing Somalia and the Kawar Oasis

The map is missing Somalia as well as the Kawar Oasis in Niger. Both these lands were conquered by the Arab Umayyads. Please improve the map. 2A04:4A43:4D7F:CA64:A117:7822:DDBB:9321 (talk) 06:52, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Map

The map should include the west Saharan trade route since it was controlled by the Arab Umayyads since the early 700’s after the complete conquest of the Berbers and Sanhajas, who had previously controlled the territory. This trade route ran from Morocco to parts of Mauritania, and thus through the Western Sahara. Another trade route was conquered previously by the Umayyads under Uqba Ibn Nafi, and this trade route was controlled by the people of Fezzan. It stretched from Fezzan all the way to the Kawar oasis. The Arab historian Ibn Abd Al-Hakam states that Uqba cut off the fingers of the king of Kawar during the conquest of this latter trade route. Uqba himself had also conquered the Sanhaja who controlled the former trade route mentioned. 2A04:4A43:4D8F:F99D:4DCC:B0E0:3DA5:2B54 (talk) 15:32, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Change Preview Image on Links to this Page

The preview you can see when you hover over a link is nice with the image and all, but this page has the image just a plain white flag. It makes it seem like the image isn't loading. Maybe it should be replaced with the Umayyad Dynasty's map instead? 208.66.243.66 (talk) 13:05, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Zakat and The House of Treasury

It is not true that the Zakat, the Obligatory or Mandatory charity ordained unto Muslims, by both the Qur'an and the Sunna, was used exclusively for the welfare of born Muslims and Muslim converts or the Mu'alafs. Since the rule of the second Califah, Omar ibnul Khattaab, he has established Baitul Maal, the House of Treasury, formed essentially of the Zakat, collected from those Muslims who according to Islamic legislation are considered affording to its paying, but also of the booty and the Jizyah paid by the non Muslims living under the protection of the Islamic state. Omar, gave orders that among the funds of the House of Treasury, are pensions that are to be paid for elderly retired non Muslims who used to pay the Jizyah earlier in their active years of their youth. 102.185.137.255 (talk) 00:23, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment on the Bayt al-mal setup. Inclusion will require sources though. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:16, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

It shouldn't be that difficult to source as this is a known fact, though I suggest you start by improving the Bayt al-mal article first. Here are some sources that could potentially help. M.Bitton (talk) 13:24, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

References

Lead summary of Umayyads in al-Andalus

Hi Theriddler1234, you're making it sound like the dynasty simply held on to power uninterrupted in al-Andalus through the end of the Abbasid Revolution in 750, which is incorrect. The dynasty, which was based in Syria, was removed from power there, and the family nearly wiped out. The surviving Abd ar-Rahman had to make his way in secret across North Africa and had to eventually fight to gain power in al-Andalus, which was effectively independent and ruled by local leaders competing with each other at the time. This is plainly and clearly summarized by the previous wording and can be verified by many reliable and detailed references on the subject. Your proposed edit conveys a different impression and introduces unnecessarily vague or confusing wording (how can "most of the dynasty" be toppled?).

Next time your edit is reverted, please explain yourself on the talk page instead of simply repeating your edit, as recommended by WP:BRD and to avoid edit-warring. Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 05:36, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi R Prazeres. You’re simply wrong. The dynasty did hold on to power uninterrupted in al-Andalus through the end of the Abbasid revolution in 750, as the predecessor to Abd Al-Rahman I (the first emir of Córdoba) was Yusuf ibn Abd al-Rahman al-Fihri (the UMAYYAD governor of Al-Andalus). So the Umayyads never lost control of Al-Andalus after the Abbasid revolution. I will also mention this on the talk page. Theriddler1234 (talk) 05:58, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm not "simply wrong", as your opinion does not reflect what scholarly sources say, so please leave the lead alone until you have solicited a proper consensus here on the talk page. I am posting a warning on your user talk page about edit-warring, to make this double-clear. R Prazeres (talk) 06:02, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Yusuf ibn Abd al-Rahman al-Fihri was the Umayyad governor of not only Al-Andalus but also Septimania, and he was succeeded by Abd Al-Rahman I and never by the Abbasids. The Umayyads were never toppled by the Abbasids in Al-Andalus and Septimania. NEVER. Theriddler1234 (talk) 06:04, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Stop using all caps to emphasize your point. The lead doesn't say anything about the Abbasids in al-Andalus, it simply summarizes what happened to the ruling dynasty of the caliphate and the subsequent establishment of a new Umayyad line in al-Andalus. Please stick to what reliable sources say and not your own interpretation. Here's one extract of the most relevant passages from Hugh Kennedy, quoted at length for your benefit (format errors may be present from copy-pasting):

Yusuf began to grow in confidence. The collapse of the Umayyad caliphate of Damascus in 747-50 in the face of 'Abbasid attacks from the east meant that he became an independent ruler. (...) After the 'Abbasid revolution of 750, al-Andalus was no longer part of a wider Muslim empire: it remained to be seen what alternative polity would emerge to fill the gap.
(...) From 747 to 750 there was a vast upheaval, the 'Abbasid revolution, which swept the Umayyads and their Syrian supporters from power. Most of the members of the ruling house were rounded up and executed, but a few, mostly less prominent, individuals were able to lie low and make their escape.
One such was 'Abd al-Rahman b. Mu'awiya, a young grandson of the great Caliph Hisham (724-43). After some hair-breadth escapes, he fled to North Africa, accompanied only by a few mawali, among them Badr, later to be his right-hand man in al-Andalus. His first intention seems to have been to secure Ifriqlya (Tunisia), but the governor, 'Abd al-Rahman al-Fihri, was hostile and he was obliged to seek refuge among his mother's relations, the Nafza Berbers. Thwarted in Africa, he sent Badr to make contact with the Umayyad mawali among the Syrian junds in al-Andalus. There were said to have been 500 of them in the diwan, led by 'Ubayd Allah b. 'Uthman and 'Abd Allah b. Khalid of Damascus and Yusuf b. Bukht of Qinnasrin. At first they tried to attract the support of the Qaysi leader, al-Sumayl, then under siege in Zaragoza, but he refused, fearing that 'Abd al-Rahman would like to make himself effective ruler, so they turned to the opposition Yemenis for support. In the early autumn of 755, after more than five years on the run, 'Abd al-Rahman crossed to Almunecar on the south coast of al-Andalus.
At first he was given refuge in the nearby homes of his mawali, Ibn Khalid and Abu 'Uthman, protected by 300 horsemen. After the attempt to reach a compromise with Yusuf al-Fihri and al-Sumayl, 'Abd al-Rahman began to make contact with Yemeni leaders throughout the south. By the next spring (756) he had recruited an army of about 2,000 Umayyad mawali and Yemeni jundis and marched on Cordoba. Here his supporters fought and defeated the Qaysi army of Yusuf and al-Sumayl and, in May 756, he entered the capital. The proclamation of 'Abd al-Rahman b. Mu'awiya as Amir in the mosque of Cordoba on Friday 14 May 756 was not the end of the Umayyad seizure of power in al-Andalus, but only the end of the beginning.

Here's another example from the Encyclopedia of Islam 2:

The governors of the Iberian peninsula, whether they were directly dependent on Damascus or whether they had assumed jurisdiction from the governor of Ifrīḳiya, enjoyed considerable autonomy because the area was so remote. The fall of the Umayyad dynasty in Syria, overthrown by the ʿAbbāsids, only served to reinforce this autonomy.
It took on the appearance of actual independence from the time of the government of Yūsuf b. ʿAbd al-Raḥmān al-Fihrī, who combined all the conditions necessary to become the founder of a dynasty in Andalusia. He was a Ḳuras̲h̲ī [q.v.], the great-grand-son of the great ʿUkba b. Nāfiʿ, the son and nephew of the conquerors of al-Andalus, whose uncle, Ḥabīb b. Abī ʿUbayda, was one of those who killed ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz, the son and successor of Musa b. Nuṣayr, and he was elected governor with the almost unanimous support of the Arabs of al-Andalus. But this unanimity rapidly disappeared thanks to the sectarian politics of his lieutenant al-Ṣumayl b. Ḥātim.
Another, even more far-reaching factor was added to this, the arrival on the scene of the young Umayyad, ʿAbd al-Raḥmān b. Muʿāwiya, the grandson of the caliph His̲h̲ām b. ʿAbd al-Malik: he had fled ʿAbbāsid persecution and had been wandering around the north of Africa accompanied by a faithful servant, his emancipated slave, Badr. He had tried as a fugitive to establish himself in Ifrīḳiya but the governor of that province, ʿAbd Allāh b. Ḥabīb al-Fihrī, forced him to continue his flight, fearing correctly that if he allowed him to settle in that province the same fate would overtake him as destiny had reserved for his cousin Yūsuf b. ʿAbd al-Raḥmān. Seeing that his hopes of seizing government in Ifrīḳiya were dashed ʿAbd al-Raḥmān commenced his wanderings amongst the various Berber tribes of the Mag̲h̲rib, an experience which convinced him not to try to restore Umayyad government in these regions. The task of creating a “state” from nothing and of unifying the numerous Berber tribes was evidently much more laborious than that of seizing a province which was already supporting a certain political organisation. Given that Ifrīḳiya, because of the rapid and determined action of its governor, was out of the question, there was only one possible region left to satisfy the ambitions of the fugitive, and that was al-Andalus.
(...)
At the end of the summer of 138/755, ʿAbd al-Raḥmān landed at Almuñecar and took refuge without delay in the home of one of his followers, ʿUbayd Allāh b. ʿUt̲h̲mān at Torrox, which was in a very mountainous and inaccessible region. Until then the governor Yūsuf b. ʿAbd al-Raḥmān knew nothing about the whole affair and ignored the advice of al-Ṣumayl, who had urged him to act speedily against the newcomer before he managed to gain firmer support. He decided to wait until the end of the winter, for his troops had only recently returned from one campaign and were reluctant to undertake another. This delay proved fatal for the governor, who was obliged to watch the gradually increasing forces of the Umayyad pretender, until the final foreseeable result, the overthrow of Yūsuf and of al-Ṣumayl, who came again to the region of Cordova on 10 Ḏh̲u ’l-Ḥid̲j̲d̲j̲a 138/14 May 756. At first the life and also the liberty of the Fihrite were respected, but when he quickly attempted revolt he was again defeated and then at last killed.

You can look up other the full texts yourself or other references. Another more recent reference would be Catlos's 2018 book Kingdoms of Faith (see pp. 37, 47-49). These descriptions from actual historians differ from the picture you're painting. Al-Andalus had fallen outside of central caliphal rule, Umayyad or otherwise, and Abd ar-Rahman had to take it by force and diplomacy. It was not the uninterrupted continuation of the previous Umayyad Caliphate. R Prazeres (talk) 06:55, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Theriddler1234, I see that you, of course, immediately resumed edit-warring ([15]) instead of working by consensus, despite being asked explicitly to respect Wikipedia policies on this issue. R Prazeres (talk) 06:59, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Why don’t you stop moaning about people using capital letters and learn to read properly. The passages you referenced say nothing about the Umayyad DYNASTY being overthrown or toppled. It says the Umayyad CALIPHATE of DAMASCUS collapsed, or that the dynasty collapsed in SYRIA. The passages you referenced also mention that the Abbasids “rounded up most of the Umayyads” and some Umayyads survived. This is in reference to what happened in SYRIA. Read your own references again. You haven’t provided any evidence that the Umayyad dynasty (as a whole) was overthrown or toppled. You haven’t provided any evidence that the Umayyad dynasty was overthrown or toppled in Al-Andalus or Septimania. At the beginning you also said that “the (Umayyad) DYNASTY did not hold on to power uninterrupted in al-Andalus through the end of the Abbasid revolution in 750”, now you’ve changed the word dynasty to the “UMAYYAD CALIPHATE”, because you know Yusuf Al-Fihri was an Umayyad, which destroys your entire argument. The lead clearly talks about most of the Umayyad DYNASTY being overthrown. Nobody is arguing that the Umayyad Caliphate was not overthrown in 750. Be consistent and stop trying to be deceptive. Theriddler1234 (talk) 15:29, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I provided some passages relevant to the crux of the issue about the situation in al-Andalus. Now you're trying to pick on semantics and ignoring substance. Every other reference can explain the overthrow of the dynasty, so what else are you expecting? Your argument that the Umayyad dynasty wasn't overthrown in Al-Andalus or Septimania is vague and misdirecting; if the ruling dynasty is overthrown from power in Syria, how is it still in power at the far reaches of the empire where no member of the ruling dynasty is present in 750? If only "most of the dynasty" was toppled, then tell me which member(s) of the dynasty remained in power after 750? Yusuf is a Fihrid and not a member of the Umayyad dynasty (any more than the other "Umayyads" which Kennedy mentions among the supporters) and he clearly didn't recognize the authority of the incoming Umayyad emir, who was a member of the dynasty (or a branch thereof), per the sources above. So it's misleading to portray this as continuous Umayyad rule in parts of the empire, when literally no reliable source so far states that.

You're implying that it's my job to prove you wrong by doing your research for you, but that's not how things work on Wikipedia: it's your job, per the verifiability policy, to provide support for your proposed change clearly and it's your job to sort this out on the talk page, not by edit-warring. You haven't demonstrated how the previous wording was incorrect, you've simply repeated yourself. R Prazeres (talk) 16:13, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

@R Prazeres: Sorry that you had to expend time on a non-issue. The Umayyads (as in the Umayyad Caliphate and the ruling Umayyad dynasty) was toppled in 750. Period. Yusuf ibn Abd al-Rahman was not an Umayyad dynast. He was originally an appointee of the Umayyads who went on to rule autonomously during Umayyad rule and simply operated independently when they were toppled in 750. A member of the Umayyad dynasty in Syria, Abd al-Rahman, escaped the Abbasid attacks on the family, went to al-Andalus, defeated Yusuf and established an emirate (the Umayyad emirate of Cordoba) in 756. There was absolutely no continuity. If you continue to try to edit-war your point of view into the article, despite its inaccuracy and without supporting sources, the longstanding version will still be restored but you would be blocked from editing. Al Ameer (talk) 16:47, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

References