RS238 311
RS238 311
RS238 311
Cartridge Collector
OFFICIAL PUBLICATION OF
THE INTERNATIONAL CAR TRIDGE COLLECTORS ASSOCIATION, INC.
MAGAZINE STAFF
Editor
GEORGE A. HOYEM 404 East 99th Street, Tacoma, WA, USA 98445
Secretary~Treasurer
CL-YDE~-IOU SEKNEC HT Box 354C, RD 6, Hildebrandt Road, Dallas, PA, USA 18612
Please mail dues and any questions regarding your membership to: VICTOR ENGEL,
1211 Walnut Street, Williamsport, PA USA 17701
Commencing with the January - February 1982 issue, the magazine will be enveloped
for delivery to all members, and distributed to ensure arrival during the first week of
each two-month period.
ADVERTISING
Members--10¢ per word for classified; non-members--15 per word. Half page (4½ x 6½) $20 for members, $30 for
non-members. Full page (6½ x 9) $40 for members, $60 for non-members. A business-size card ad for members is $5.
DEADLINE for ads--45 days prior to publication (Ex., July 15 for Sept. - Oct.)
All payments in U.S, funds to International Cartridge Collectors Association. Advertising with payment therefore should be sent
to the ASSISTANT EDITOR (advertising management) listed above. Mel Carpenter is responsible for the total advertising
program.
NOTE FROM THE EDITOR
A number of matters important to the membership were discussed at the Chicago
meeting of the officers and directors.
From now on, new members’ names will be reported in the magazine. We
are pleased to report that our ranks have swelled to well over 900 and
new enrollees are coming in all the time. This undoubtedly is due in
part to the word-of-mouth advertising campaign of the members them-
selves. Make it a point never to miss an opportunity to promote the
association. After all, it is from the new members that you will
eventually locate new items for your own collections, and the new
friends which make the hobby worthwhile.
4) Members h~ve reported that funds sent for CARTRIDGE GUIDE ($18 U.S.)
to WESTERN SERVICE, Heidelberg 18, D-2154 Fahrhof, W. Germany, have
brought no book and no response to follow-up inquiries. This situation
has prevailed at least since May 1981. Until these orders are filled,
we csn only caution younot to order. Any information from our Europ-
ean members concerning the situation with WESTERN SERVICE would be much
appreciated. We do not want to do anyone an injustice.
DEPARTED MEMBERS
We have ~rd that the following members are no longer with us. Our sincer-
est condolences go to these men’s families.
NEW MEMBERS
Many of you who have joined in recent months will not be listed here be-
cause your names have moved in with all the others. So consider yourselves
oldtimers. From now on, we will regularly report new arrivals.
Paul H. Van Hoe, 562 Peach Tree Lane, Grosse Pointe, MI 48236
Kenneth Johnson, Box 336, North Gerard Rd., Yaphank, N.Y. 11980
COVER PHOTO - A J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co. promotional target issued
during the period after 1902, and probably distributed into the 1920’s.
The upper right plant made shotguns and automobiles, the lower left
made rifles and pistols, the lower right also made rifles. The rules
referred to on the opposite side would be interesting if someone has an
original. No record was made at the time of this photograph.
AUTO PISTOL- SUB MACHINE GUN
Edited by Bill Woodin--Photos by George Hoyem
The following group of automatic pistol and submachine gun cartridges are not
covered in the readily available references on this subject. Members with
more information on any of the specimens, please write to John Moss, AUTO
PISTOL Committee Head and/or Bill Woodin.
The following group of automatic pistol and submachine gun cartridges are not
covered in the readily available references on this subject. Members with
more information on any of the specimens, please write to John Moss, AUTO
PISTOL Committee Head and/or Bill Woodin.
f/~6~’\
550 550
13.97 13.97 ]2.32 11.43
45o f26
Believed to be a round submitted for British trials
but pistol is unknown. Note that a typical 7.9x57
Polte headstamp bunter was used.
HEADSTAllS (Continued) :
REVOLVER
Eugene C. Flory, 12916 - 64th Ave. S., Seattle, WA 98178
"...With regard to the No. 309 bulletin received today and in part answer
to Eugene C. Flory, I am not surprised that many of his cartridges cannot
be readily identified in Erlmeier-Brandt. For example, I have 71 different
.450 revolver cartridges in my collection not counting military variants,
and Just a cursory count of noticeable differences in bullet, case, crimp,
etc shows at least half of these are significantly different. To take the
examples shown, numbering from the top Nos 2 and 3 are both early Boxer
type commercial .450 ammunition made by Eley Bros. The headstamps noted
include ELEY BR0s, .ELEY BROs. LONDON, .ELEY.LONDON. 450, and WILKINSON.,
with considerable bullet profile variations.
"No. 5 is yet another .450 variant with a slightly longer case than normal
and slightly smaller apparent bullet diameter. As a book I hope to publish
soon will show,’normal’ covers a multitude of measurements as each manuf-
acturer had its own ideas of what constituted ’normal.’ Case length is one
consistently variable measurement, making something of a nonsense of list-
ings showing such things as .450 Long C. F. (50/64") and (55/64") cases.
Not that they did not exist but the revolver cartridges manufacturers
did not seem to pay much attention to case length. Even Erlmeier-Brandt
give tacit admission to this by quoting case length for the .450 Revolver
(which I should th~nk is the ’correct’ nomenclature, not .450 Short C. F.)
as varying between .626" and .725"! i.e., 5/8" to approximately 3/4".
"No. 6 is, I think, .442 Long, probably an early Kynoch production as a lot
of these did not seem to be headstamped. The bullet shape is unusual and
different from an otherwise similar cartridge in my collection which I have
identified as of this calibre.
"No.7 proves the point about case length. I have come across ~ similar
cartridge, headstamped ’F. J .380’ (Frederick Joyce), made from a .380
Long case cut down. It is almost certain that they were intended for use
in either .38 Smith & Wesson and/or .380 Service revolvers, probably the
former. They would probably fit most .380 revolvers, too, at a guess.
The same goes for No. 8, the shot load, if the quoted measurements are any-
thing to ~ by, though I must confess that I haven’t seen anything quite
like it before. It has, what one might call, a ’British’ look to it save
for the bullet.
=:,:!
SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN JANUARY, 1926
The Krupp 8cm Field Gun was adopted by Germany (Prussia) in 1873, and
remained in service until about 1896. It was a breech-loading, bag charge
weapon, and used a friction primer for ignition. The Krupp Sliding Wedge
breech block was employed, which was transversely opening with a hand
placed copper sealing ring. Manufacture of these guns took place at Fried
Krupp, Essen, and the Royal Prussian Armory in Spandau. Although an Army
weapon, it could be mounted on a Naval carriage for use as a coastal def-
ense or Naval gun. The maximum range was about four miles.
Two projectile types are known: Explosive and Canister. The Explo-
sive shell has a distinctive wide lead rotating band with four ribs.
This type of band also appears on 9cm, 12cm, and 12.7cm Explosive and
Shrapnel shells for other Krupp Field and Naval weapons of this period.
Canister shells for the 8cm have a wood sabot, to which the powder bag
was tied, and a narrow, copper rotating band. A Shrapnel shell may have
been made in this caliber, but I have never seen any proof of this.
Krupp Percussion Fuzes were used in the Explosive shells. This was
a simple impact fuze, consisting of a non-threaded brass body containing
the firing pin, and a seperate, threaded brass head with a removeable
primer holder. The body is supported by a lip inside the fuze well, and
retained in place by a pin. For safety, the head was not screwed into
the shell until just before firing. A zinc safety cap replaced it while
being shipped or stored. According to the 1927 edition of the Bannerman
Catalogue of Military Goods, paper time fuzes of five to thirty seconds
delay could be used, but whether this was actually done by the Germans
is unknown to me. I would appreciate hearing from anyone that has other
projectiles of any caliber for these early Krupp weapons, or literature
on them.
f.~Z"
<
, !
i’
I
I
I
L
I I
i
Markings: None
Color Code: Black body - unpainted rotating band
Material: Cast Iron body - lead rotatin~ Band - brass fuze
Remarks: Krupp Percussion Fuze - angled hole in upper body for
fuze body retaining pin - diameter at base 2.99" -
diameter at rotating bands 3.17" - weight 9 ibs.
Actual Size
q
~J
/1
m
A
¯ S"
Germany 1873-96
Markings: As shown
Color Code: Black with unpainted
sabot and rotating
band.
Material: Multi-piece tin body -
copper rotating band -
wood sabot - zlnc balls
Remarks: Diameter of lower body
end cap 3.01" - diameter
at rotating band 3.17" -
weight 8 3/& ibs. -
overall length 8.49"
Actual Size
13
UNIDENTIFIED (RIMFIRE?)
QUESTION: "...What is this cartridge? What was it used in? What would it
be worth if non-dug, and are there very many in existence?
We’ve been thru every reference that we can find and have come
up with nothing of any help...You may keep the photo for your
files for your time and trouble."
Sincerely,
Charles S. Harris
301 Yorkshire Lane
Chattanooga, TN 57415
(CORRECTIONS)
Issue 289-290:
Page 3, line 13 - change "1972" to "1971".
Page 6, line 10 - change "1971" to "1972".
( i NFO)
Robert E. Leiendecker has sent in this interesting
information on another type of Soviet 12.7mm explosive
cartridge.
t6
i i i iiii ii |
4,30"
Fuze
I’ncend iary
Mix
Explosive
YUGOSLAV 7.62 x 39
WAYNE MARKOV
Thank you,
Wayne E. Markov
GMCS jacket
Box measurements:
Length-I 28ram
NOTE: There are
He ight- 62ram
four I0 round
stripper clips Thickness- 42mm
per box.
"TRANSLATIQN"
40 PIECES
STEEL ~,~
Abbreviation~
| Yugoslav
7.62x39
Wood bulleted practice blank,
Brass case
Brass Convex primer.
Yugoslav #422
Grenade blank
5 petal crimp w/wax sealed tip
Br,Rss case
Brass primer w/red annulus
Convex type pEi.mer.
This specimen was obtained, "sealed",
in a clear plastic envelope.
2O
Yugoslav 7~62x39
SHORT R~GE
List #425
Brass case and primer
Red annulus (Convex type primer)
Known in two H/Ss, see below
Plastic bullet,
dark gray color.
~ Plastic bullet,
light gray color.
Scale: 2/I
’ Steel case
Gray Lacquered
finish.
Brass Convex type
,_~_.._
primer.
Red annulus
Transition crimps
Waxed ti.p~
Overall length-48.]mm
NOTE~ These two speci.mens,
#423 & #424 have identical
H/Ss, All known steel blanks
after 1969, are 4 petal crimp.
~-~t~~ ~ ~
YUGOSLAV 7.62x39 CART. BOX
LABEL
I ~.-~ ........ IIII II - - ...... III al"
40 F(OMA,O,A
7.62 MM METARA CA 3PHOM M 59 Above h/s from
this box.
3A nOJlYAYTOMAT(~i~Y I’IYlJJI,{Y M 59
Y OKBH’PHMA Brass case &
primer.
HK 6701-18 Red Annulus
HLI- 08 ~ MBJ! 6714
"TRANSLATION"
Case Wt, is 7:62mm CARTRIDGE WI~H BULLET M59 Mild Steel Core
17.09 grams GM jacket
FOR SEMI-AUTOMATIC RIFLE M59
IN CLIPS Bul, Wt, 7,43 grams
IK 6701-18
r
40 PIECES
7.62mm CARTRIDGE WITH REGULAR BULLET M67
FOR SEMI-aUTOMaTIC RIFLE M59/66
IN CLIPS
IK 7202-07
NT-08 -~F MBL 71 38
22
SEPT~3R 17, 18, 19, 1982 (Friday noon - Sunday noon). NORT4~E_$T CARTRIDGE
COLLECTORS’ TR~TH ANNUAL $110W, Doric-Tacoma Motor !~otel, 242 St. Relens
Ave., Tacoma, WA 98402. Reservations phone (206) 572-9572. GEORGE HOYEM,
404 E. 99th St., Tacoma, WA 98445 (206) 531-4632.
SEPTEMBER 24, 25, 26, 1982. EUROPEAN CARTRIDGE COLLECTORS CLUB SHOW. The
show location to be announced, somewhere in The Netherlands. See last
issue concerning the temporary import license you must have if you intend
to visit Holland for this show. The September-0ctober issue will announce
the exact location.
The Cartridge
Guide
The Small Arms
Ammunition Identification
Manual
by lan V. Hogg
¯ How to identify any metal cartridge
ever made
¯ An easy-to-use handbook for collectors
and professionals alike
° Some 800 line drawings of headstamps
Hardcover $19.95
61/4 x 91/2
160 pages, illustrations $I, O0 POSTAGE
COMMITTEE HEADS
EARLY AND TRANSITIONAL
Paul E. Klatt 4110 Barberry Dr., Lafayette Hill, Pennsylvania U.S.A. 19444
RIMFIRES
George G. Kass P.O. Box 541, Spring Arbor, Michigan 49283
CENTERFIRE RIFLE (American)
Howard G. Hoovestol RR 2, Bismark, North Dakota 58501
CENTERFIRE RIFLE (British)
Darius N. Brant 710 Anderson Ave., Phoenixville, PA 19460
CENTERFIRE RIFLE (Metric Sporting)
George A. Hc.yem 404 E. 99th St., Tacoma, Washington 98445
SHOTSHELLS (Metallic)
Duane Richardson 2606 Lovelace, San Antonio, Texas 78217
Richard J. Iverson (Pre-1940) 3215 - 14th Ave., Rock Island, Illinois 61201
George Krienke (Post- I940) 7010 Mecklem Rd., Everson, Washington98247
AUXIHARY CARTRIDGES
Raymond E. Hanning 7921 Fifth, Dexter, Michigan 48130
MIHTARY UNDER 37MM
William H. Woodin 3600 N. Larrea Lane, Tucson, Arizonia 85715
ARTILLERY 37MM AND OVER
James P. O’Brlen Box 4752, Huachuca City, Arizona 85616
AUTO PISTOl.
John L. Moss 1033 Gilman St., Colma, California 94015
REVOLVER
Eugene C. Flory 12916 - 64th Ave. S., Seattle, Washington 98178
SPECIAL PROJECTS, SHOTSHELLS
Leslie W. Barbot, r 144F Firemwe," Rd., Ijamsville, Maryland 21754
CANADIAN
John A. Belton Box 425, Merrickville, Ontario, Canada KOG 1NO
SPECIAL PROJECTS, GENERAl.
Melvin R. Carpenter 3102 Raleigh Ridge Cove, Memphis, Tennessee 38128
Annuals, at $2.00 each- Vol i, No. 3; Vol i, No. 4; Vol 2, No. I; Vol 2,
No. 2; Vol 2, No. 3; Vol 2, No. 4; Vol 3, No. i; Vol 3, No. 2
TRADERS, at $i.00 each for single issues and $2.00 each for double issues:
1975 - Nov, Dec (single issues)
1976 -All (single issues)
1977 - All, except Mar and Oct (single issues)
1978 - Jan, Feb (single issues), Mar-Apt, May-Jun, Jul-Aug, Sep-Oct, Nov-Dec
1979 - All (doubhe issues)
1980- May-Jun, Jul-Aug, Sep-Oct, Nov-Dec
For an order of $12.00 or more (not including annuals) deduct 20%. Postage
paid by surface mail to ~ere. Send orders to: Clyde Houseknecht, RD #6,
Box 354C, Dallas, PA 18612
26
WANTED: SCREW-OFF HEAD SHOTSHELLS. All makes, gauges, and variations. Trade or cash.
Will answer all letters. R.H. BELSHAW, RR2 Utopia, Ontario, Canada LOM ITO
CARTRIDGES FOR THE COLLECTOR. Catalog #i with supplements; $2.00. MIKE KENNEDY, JEFF
CARD, P.O. Box 239, Williamstown, MA 01267
WANTED: AUXILIARY DEVICES. Any type, obsolete or modern for rifles, pistols, or shot-
guns. All marking variations. Also need special adapter cartridges and bullets, box
lots or singles, auxiliary device boxes or packaging, literature, advertising, photos,
etc.. Have good trade items or cash. RAY HANNING, 7921 Fifth, Dexter, MI, 48130
CARTRIDGE BOOK:".30-06 WE HAVE SEEN, VOL. II" Headstamp drawings, label photos. Over
200 pages. $13.00 postpaid. GERALD MARCELLO, 8421 Beaver Lake Drive, San Diego, CA 92119
CARTRIDGE COLLECTORS CATALOG #7. Now ready; $2.00. Much larger - many new items. Special
discount coupon included. ROBERTS COLLECTORS CARTRIDGES, Box 3134, Union Gap, WA 98903
MILITARY CARTRIDGE LIST. i0 pages, $.75. Hand grenades wanted; must be inert. DAVID BELL
30184 Winthrop, Madison Heights, MI 48071
MONTHLY CARTRIDGE LIST: 12 issues per year, ranging through all centerfire rifle and
pistol cartridges, both decimal and metric - plus monthly updates on new finds
regardless of their location on list. $6.50 USA, $9.00 overseas, per year. THOMAS
O’HANLON, 26 Ridge Avenue, Edgewater, MD 21037
WANTED: .30-06 WE HAVE NOT SEEN. Any FA (Frankford Arsenal) .30-06 cartridge; ball, blank,
dummy, etc. with a headstamp date of November, 1906 through May, 1907 (FA ii 06 through
FA 5 07). Please advise if you have, or know of, any of these dates. GERALD MARCELLO,
8421 Beaver Lake Drive, San Diego, CA 92119
TO BE SOLD AS ONE LOT: .450cf Boxer Revolver - 43 specimens from USA, Europe, UK,
including inside-primed, Boxer case both Service and trade, and solid-drawn case; .476cf
Revolver - 12 specimens, including "cordite" length case; .500cf Revolver - 18 specimens
including Boxer-, solid-, and inside-primed cases; .442rf Revolver - i0 specimens
including one raised h.s.; $360.00, with buyer collecting here or paying shipping costs.
W.H.J. CHAMBERLAIN, Box 530392, Miami Shores Station, FL 33153
CARTRIDGE PRICE LIST: Latest list contains approximately 700 items, of which about 200
are of South African origin. $i.00. DAVID A. HENMAN, 66 13th. Street, Victory Park,
Johannesburg, 2195, R.S.A.
WANTED: .22R. F. Shorts with raised A or P. Also need .32 C.F.U.S. POLICE and any rare
items pertaining to COLTS. GEORGE LEWIS, 1909 West 68th. St., Shawnee Mission, KS 66208,
913-362-3537
CARTRIDGE LIST #2~ JANUARY 1982. 50 pages (Metallic only), $4.00 US, $i0.00 overseas
air mail. Prepaid shipment on orders over $25.00 filled. PHIL SMITH, 709 Earth Drive,
Vista, CA 92083
WANTEDI METRIC CARTRIDGES. Good singles or collection. Will travel. PETER MOUCKA, 4115
W. Highland Blvd., Milwaukee, WI 53208
27
WANTED: SAVAGE .303 ammunition. ANTELOPE HUNTER, Box 181, Verona, WI 53593
WANTED BY PRIVATE COLLECTOR: 5.56x45 (.223); .303 British; .30 US Carbine, and 7mm and
below assault rifle cartridges for my collection. Need all types of headstamps, case
materials, loadings, case draw sets, etc.. Also interested in collections, big or small
of the above calibers. Will buy or trade. All correspondence answered. J.C. LOVELESS,
H&S CO, H&S BN, 3rd FSSG, FPO San Fransisco, CA 96604
WANTED: EVANS .44 box lots by American, Phoenix, Winchester, and United States
Cartridge Companies wanted by collector. Full, partial, or empty boxes of interest.
DWIGHT B. DEMERITT JR., 292 Hicks Street, Brooklyn, N.Y. 11201
lit
J MIDWAYARMS,.c. j
7450 Old Highway" 40 West ¯ Route 5 Box 298 ¯ Coumba, Me 65201 314-445-3030
j, i ,,
All ammunition is new, made in USA., headstamped "Midway" and the PRICE: Retail Dealer
Loaded ammunition (per box of 50) 2995 22.95
respective caliber. NoN-corroawe, boxer primed., reloadable! AH
Unprimed Brass (per box of 50) 19.50 14 95
ammunition is loaded with original style bullets and to original velocities
Bullets (per box of log) 1295 9.95
No way to ship small orders of ammunition to Alaska or Hawaii. Brass and Dummy Cartridges (per individual round} 1 30 1 O0
bullet orders can be shipped however, but double the postage. No COD’s Dummy Cartridges (per box of 50) 4A95 3750
to Alaska or Hawaii Retoadirlg Data (specify caliber) 1 30 1 O0
Quantity Discounts --
Orders over $290, deduct 10% Prices subject to change without notice,
Orders over 100, deduct 5%
Orders over $500, deduct 17%
........ ORDER FORM
Qty, Description Price Each Total DELIVERY FROM STOCK ON HAND