Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive99
The Last Angry Man
[edit]The Last Angry Man (talk · contribs) topic-banned for three months. Igny (talk · contribs) topic-banned for six months. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning The Last Angry Man[edit]
6 Oct 3 Oct 30 Sep Here is my warning not to revert without discussion. 25 Sep 24 Sep Here is my invitation to a discussion over the POV tag.
This is not a content dispute, so I will not discuss the content issues which brought me here. This is a request to stop TLAM's persistent disruptive behaviour. This might not be the whole picture, more could become apparent after someone reviews TLAM's edit history, and other involved editors start adding their remarks. I will add more comments here after the WP:EEML team rushes here for TLAM's defence and mud slinging. Re -Mkativerata. Did you read the number 4 diff, or not? Was it mild to you? Was it not directed at other editors?? I am not taking my EEML comment back, but to clarify, I meant their tactics rather than the members of the mailing list, see here or some clarification. Needless to say, my intentional reference to their tactics saved a ton of time for you because you are not reading kilobytes of mud thrown at me by MArtin and others. (Igny (talk) 16:52, 7 October 2011 (UTC))
See here.
Discussion concerning The Last Angry Man[edit]Statement by The Last Angry Man[edit]Igny`s reverts
[1] Reverts though there was no discussion on the talk page and the tag was removed within policy and does not use the talk page, He is asked by user User:Mamalujo why[2] he did the revert he posts a threat of AE enforcement on the article talk page, but does not discuss why he reverted the tag in.[3] [4][5] His last revert on Communist terrorism [6] And again does not go to talk. My last removal of the POV was based on Paul Siebert stating he believed it could be removed which meant there was a consensus for it to be removed, Igny then decided to be WP:POINTY and tagged a section. When I said he was a joker I meant he was messing about it was not meant as an attack. Since my unblock I have removed the POV tag on this article twice, the first time as there were no section on talk per policy and the second as there is now a consensus for it to be removed as Paul Siebert has said he believes it can be removed. This is not edit warring over a tag as has been claimed.
Reachs 3R in one day. [7][8][9]
[15] [16] [17][18] [19][20] [21][22]
Not surprising really, why not throw in the kitchen sink whilst at it. Am ?I the only person on wiki who has said piss? I very much doubt that,[26] it is a well used English expression. Lets try again is also a well used English expression, take me out and hang me till dead why not. I was unblocked unconditionally by the Committee[27] and have followed policy to the best that I can, I have used talk pages extensively, and have always discussed any reverts I have made on contentious edits. I have not edited against consensus as Igny claims on MKUCR article, there was a clear consensus that the source should not be grossly misrepresented as it had been.
Comments by others about the request concerning The Last Angry Man[edit]Comment by Vecrumba[edit]The provocative and preemptive personal attack of WP:EEML WITCH! screaming rather underscores the source of WP:BATTLEFIELD attitude here. PЄTЄRS Comment by Tammsalu[edit]I concur with Vecrumba that mention of "the EEML team rushing here" is a bad faithed personal attack. I note that Igny was previously blocked for "disruptive comments on case workshop, including protracted assumption of bad faith and unfounded suggestions of backstage collusion"[28], i.e. making unfounded accusations of collusion, and it seems he hasn't learned and continues do so on his talk page[29] as well as here. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 04:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Lvivske[edit]I don't have a stake or opinion on the behavior shown in the articles mentioned by Mkativerata, but in fairly recent edits I have noticed battleground behavior from Igny on the Holodomor article (1, 2, 3, where he was edit warring hard the lead up to the article being put on indefinite lock (due to the massive warring going on). TLAM was also in there, but I found he was enforcing the talk page consensus that Igny was opposed to, and his edits were far fewer in the lock countdown. There's a particularly egregious moment on the 25th (1 2), where TLAM removes a June-inserted POV tag saying there's no talk page discussion, Igny reverts, makes some of his own edits, and then says its okay now to remove it. Pure WP:OWN mentality or what? I understand that these topics tend to be polarized between two schools of thought and appear to between two cohesive, chummy groups, but the battleground mentality has got to stop or all these articles will just keep getting locked in limbo.--Львівське (talk) 05:52, 7 October 2011 (UTC) Comment by tangently involved Russavia[edit]Ummm, I have a HUGE problem with this. TLAM is clearly a sockpuppet of the banned user Marknutley. That the Arbcom in its infinite
Thank you ever so much Biophys for the clear evidence that you continue to stalk my edits after all these years. After your harrassment and hounding of the last couple of weeks, this is surely going to make for a damning request for either the Committee or right here at AE. Unless of course you are able to tell us how you managed to find an edit that I made to an article which you have never edited, and for which the PROD notice was not yet placed on the editors talk page. Stalking my contributions is obviously the only way, correct? Anyway, thanks for confirming what I have always known. Russavia Let's dialogue 16:19, 7 October 2011 (UTC) comment by uninvolved Collect[edit]Comments accusing a person of being a sock and therefore blockable do not belong here. The content disputes are noted - and that is what they are. Using this board to block or ban a person where they have shown no incivility or other reasons for the block or ban is improper. DIGWUREN is likely equally applicable to Igny et al, b the way, using the identical arguments. Let's stick to proper use of this board. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC) @MS: Do you really think that the similarities are sufficient to make this an SPI case? I can find "similarities" between Igny, TFD and Paul Siebert in wording and positions on several articles - but simply disagreeing with a person is an extraordinarily bad reason to pursue anything without some actual "evidence" (such as intersection of edits n article and user pages, etc.) As to using "British editing mannerisms" as an argument - I do not see sufficient similarities to label TLAM as MN by a long shot. I suspect at least three editors on Wikipedia are based in the UK as a minimum, including Jimbo Wales who currently uses 'British editing mannerisms." YMMV. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Mathsci[edit]Please note these talk page comments of TLAM from 2 October.[35] Other edits of TLAM have been discussed with FPaS and others on WP:ANI here. In response to the comments of FPaS, although there are certain minor differences in writing style, generally TLAM's British editing mannerisms (including his "blokish" English) and choice of subject are close to those of Marknutley. For the stubs both editors have created on uncontroversial books, there seem to be very few differences in the style/format of the first drafts of Council of Dads and The Castle in the Attic (MN) and the first draft of Annie Dunne (TLAM). Also the format of edit summaries directed towards individual editors (@ PS, @ TFD, etc) are not common, but shared by both accounts. Beyond these technical details, a newbie making their first edits on wikipedia at talk:communist terrorism, first with a London IP and then with their newly created account, is odd. Put simply: Hersfold was probably correct in his initial assessment. But note the use of the word "probably" ... Mathsci (talk) 11:56, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Biophys[edit]Nominating for deletion [36] an article created by TLAM [37] looks pointy to me. Biophys (talk) 15:42, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments by Paul Siebert[edit]I have one general comment and few comments on the Mkativerata's post.
In summary, the only indication of Igny's incivility is his reference to the EEML case. In addition, I found his decision to file this AE request premature, especially in a situation when both users are the participants on of the mediation. PS The following TLAM's statement: "there is now a consensus for it to be removed as Paul Siebert has said he believes it can be removed." is a misinterpretation of my position. I explained my opinion specifically to TLAM: ("PS. re your last revert, let me explain that I do not think that the POV issues have been fully resolved. I just hope that we are probably approaching a consensus, so there is no need in immediate restoration of the tag. That position is just a demonstration of my good faith, and I expect some steps to be taken by you and others in a responce.--Paul Siebert (talk)" ). Therefore, I point the admin's attention at the fact that the reference to my opinion is unjustified in this particular case. I especially object to the attempt to use my post, which was made in a desire to create less aggressive atmosphere, in combative purposes. Comment by Greyhood[edit]
Result concerning The Last Angry Man[edit]
I'd love to keep this open but I think we've heard all we need to hear. Any more discussion here and I'd have been tempted to hand out sanctions to some of the third parties in this AE: Biophys in particular is walking a thin line. All third parties to DIGWUREN requests are on notice. I've read all the contributions from each "side" here. Regarding Paul Siebert's contributions, one of the very few helpful ones, I mostly disagree: This is not constructive participation in a discussion, it is asserting ones own view of the "consensus" and reverting accordingly, which is a tried and tested battleground edit-warring tactic. So, the topic bans are applied as proposed, subject to T.Canens' suggestion: 6 months for Igny, 3 months for TLAM. No exception for MEDCAB. Sockpuppetry allegations can be pursued elsewhere; for now, in light of Arbcom's unblock and the absence of damning new evidence, this is not the place. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:48, 7 October 2011 (UTC) |
No More Mr Nice Guy
[edit]No action taken. T. Canens (talk) 19:57, 13 October 2011 (UTC) |
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Request concerning No More Mr Nice Guy[edit]
The ARBPIA rulings say: "Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, trolling, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited." I do not know any editor who is as relentlessly snide and sarcastic as No More Mr Nice Guy, who appears to be making a determined and succesful effort to live up to his user name. On 26 September, No More Mr Nice Guy left a baseless and insulting remark about user Talknic (talk · contribs) on the talk page of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War article, writing: "How about you desist wasting everyone's time with your silly trolling?" The Wikipedia talk page guidelines allow the removal of personal attacks (and also, as I think the comment fits the description, ironically, trolling: "A troll deliberately exploits tendencies of human nature or of an online community to upset people."). Accordingly, I struck out No More Mr Nice Guy's comment. He then re-instated it, I struck it out and then No More Mr Nice Guy re-instated it again. The following diffs show the sequence of events:
On making the first reinstatement, No More Mr Nice Guy left the edit summary, "I believe I told you already not to edit my talk page comments." This is a reference to an incident in November 2010 when I struck out an off-topic (irrelevant to the topic) and insulting comment of No More Mr Nice Guy's which he again insisted on reinstating. This diff shows the sequence of edits made at the Human rights in Israel talk page. This link points to the discussion that was had about it on No More Mr Nice Guy's user talk page. ← ZScarpia 23:33, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
← ZScarpia 02:51, 3 October 2011 (UTC) (edited: 10:19, 3 October 2011 (UTC))
@Tznkai, 23:27, 4 October 2011 (UTC): Thanks. When you said, "refactoring someone else's comments, especially directed against you, is also problematic," were you speaking in general, or are you thinking that No More Mr Guy's remark was directed at me rather than Talknic? And is a lesson I should be learning from this that instead of striking personal attacks against other users in the ARBPIA area out I should resort straight to the AE noticeboard? ← ZScarpia 00:28, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Since, this request hasn't been closed yet, I'd like to reply to comments including the latest. ← ZScarpia 18:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Discussion concerning No More Mr Nice Guy[edit]Statement by No More Mr Nice Guy[edit]I do not believe my comment was a personal attack. It hardly even rises to the level of being mildly uncivil, as anyone who has a couple of hours to spare and would like to read the previous discussions on that page and its archives can see. Furthermore, I'm not the first person who described talknic's behavior as trolling. WP:Talk#Others' comments is pretty clear that "Editing – or even removing – others' comments is sometimes allowed. But you should exercise caution in doing so, and normally stop if there is any objection". I objected. ZScarpia re-edited my comment. The same guideline also says "This generally does not extend to messages that are merely uncivil; deletions of simple invective are controversial." In summary, there was no personal attack, ZScaripa removed my comment without discussing the issue with me beforehand (or afterwards) and removed it again after I objected. He came directly to this board in what seems like an attempt to remove someone he perceives as having opposing views to his. I believe WP:BOOMERANG should apply. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:45, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
WP:NPA - Personal attacks do not include civil language used to describe an editor's actions, and when made without involving their personal character, should not be construed as personal attacks, for instance, stating "Your statement is a personal attack..." is not itself a personal attack. Comments by others about the request concerning No More Mr Nice Guy[edit]This appears to be another one of those chronic cases of wikilawyering that admins have warned in the past will result in sanctions. An editor's entire talk page contributions appear to be a combination of WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT and WP:OR, yet the editor who tells him as much is brought up "civility" charges. What a waste of time.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:19, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning No More Mr Nice Guy[edit]
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Toddy1
[edit]Toddy1 has been notified of the discretionary sanctions under DIGWUREN. EdJohnston (talk) 19:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Toddy1[edit]
I think this falls squarely into the category of "making generalized accusations that persons of a particular national or ethnic group are engaged in Holocaust denial or harbor Nazi sympathies". Allegations that diaspora Ukrainians have connections to individuals involved in the Holocaust/Nazi collaboration is unacceptable.
If this is the wrong way to request a formal warning, I do apologise. I didn't want to seem as if I was admin-fishing, so I came here instead of an admin's talk-page.
Discussion concerning Toddy1[edit]Statement by Toddy1[edit]I had hoped that this this unfair request would have been declined by now. As this has not happened, I need to make a statement. Events leading to my posting the remarks, the other editor is is complaining about.
I note that someone has argued below that the incident on 1 October was not a racist incident. However, this is English language Wikipedia, and the accepted English definition of a racist incident is "any incident that is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person". This definition comes from recommendation 12 of the Macpherson Report of 1999, which was accepted. The message I posted that is being complained about
Note that contrary to the assertion by the complainant, this message does not make generalized accusations about persons of a particular national or ethnic group. In countries that have an established independence, like England and France, "nationalists" is how people from extreme usually racist parties are described - such as National Front (France) or English Defence League. "Nationalists" is also used to describe sectarian groups such as Provisional Irish Republican Army. In the context of Ukraine in the late 1980s and early 1990s, mainstream politicians who favour independence from the USSR could be described as "nationalists"; these days in domestic Ukrainian politics it refers to people like Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. People who make xenophobic or racist edits to Wikipedia tend to be referred to on Wikipedia as nationalists. Therefore my remark was not about the members of the Ukrainian diaspora in general, but about a group who make racist and xenophobic edits. There must be more than a million people in spread between Canada and the USA who have Ukrainian roots, who I would class as Ukrainian-Canadians and Ukrainian-Americans. In 1947, former soldiers of 14 SS Division were allowed to emigrate to Canada and to the United Kingdom (this is very famous). I am not sure how many of them emigrated to Canada - maybe 5000. I do not know how many Ukrainians who had collaborated in the Final Solution emigrated to Canada and the USA - we are probably talking of hundreds. In any case if you add these two categories together,they are a tiny proportion of the people of Ukrainian descent who live in Canada and the USA. The remark that is the subject of this complaint, in effect alleges that many (not all) of the people in Canada and USA making racist/xenophobic edits to articles related to Ukraine are not representative of normal Ukrainian-Canadians and Ukrainian-Americans, but instead are likely to be the children and grandchildren of this tiny minority mentioned above. I fully accept that the remark I made was the wrong remark to make. It was made when I was angry and upset about the racist incident and the way it appeared to be handled. If the editor who made the edits that appeared to be racist had been the one making the complaint about me, he would to some extent be justified in saying that I had made a personal attack on him. The Unclean hands defence would clearly apply. How is the situation different when the complainant is his friend who at the same time as making this complaint about me was editing on another AE incident to get that editor unblocked? DIGWUREN Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Editors warned says as follows:
If you look at other Digwuren cases - here is an example - you can see that people who are accused of violating the "Digwuren rule" tend to be accused of doing it many times, not a one-off unwise comment.--Toddy1 (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2011 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Toddy1[edit]Looking at edits like this I get the feeling Tobby1 is trying to do the right (saying all are equal) thing but he got carried away and tried to outmaneuver (possible) opponents by discriminating them. I advice him to take a off-wiki cooling down period. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:42, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Toddy1[edit]
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Hearfourmewesique
[edit]Blocked 2 weeks for 1RR violation, and formally notified of WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions. T. Canens (talk) 19:56, 13 October 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Hearfourmewesique[edit]
The user is fresh off of a 1 week block for edit warring at the same article over the same material. The user insists that so long as he disputes the material that his preferred version must be retained. Straightforward violation of the 1RR. The user's directive in the last edit summary demonstrates an understanding that discussion is required, but oddly the user seems to be under the impression that "consensus" is needed for others' edits, not his or her own. A week long block did not make the point clear, so something else may be needed.
Discussion concerning Hearfourmewesique[edit]Statement by Hearfourmewesique[edit]This is a tactical war waged on a 1RR arbitration-enforced page. I made this edit to remove contentious information and stated in the edit summary that I am opening a discussion on a talk page, pleading editors not to revert me. This was my first edit, therefore it is not a reversal. I got reverted by Nableezy (talk · contribs) here, and although he replied on the talk page, he did not continue the discussion after I reverted him (for the first time, since the first edit was not a revert) here. So... this is Nableezy "giving me time", and this is him, 14 minutes later, notifying me of a report which was already filed. Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) is involved in this, mainly to enforce arbitration when it comes to leaving material that blatantly violates WP:NPOV and several other policies, to keep a Palestinian agenda in the articles. All I want is a fair discussion and for editors to respect WP:BRD, is it too much to ask? Hearfourmewesique (talk) 19:50, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Hearfourmewesique[edit]
Result concerning Hearfourmewesique[edit]
I'll implement the block and the notification. Closing. T. Canens (talk) 19:48, 13 October 2011 (UTC) |
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by STSC
[edit]Appeal declined. NW (Talk) 15:06, 12 October 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
User_talk:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise#Discretionary_sanctions:_topic_ban
Statement by STSC[edit]The administrator failed to satisfy the "Warning" provision of the discretionary sanctions process because prior to the sanction being imposed, I had not been given any direct and specific warning personally on my user talk page. I want the sanction to be lifted. Further statement by STSC Response to John Vandenberg Response to T. Canens and Cailil Statement by Future Perfect at Sunrise[edit]My comments are here: [46]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:46, 12 October 2011 (UTC) Statement by arbitrator John Vandenberg[edit]The warning at [47] is sufficient, in my opinion. It is good practise to notify users on their talk page, however everyone involved should have seen the notification on the talk page because that is where they were edit warring. 23:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2)[edit]Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by STSC[edit]Result of the appeal by STSC[edit]
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Ludwigs2
[edit]Topic banned for six months. Ludwigs2, please see {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}} if you wish to appeal | |||
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Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Ludwigs2[edit]
Poisoning the talk page of an article (includes some personal attacks)[edit]
Gross violation of NPA[edit]
Edit warring[edit]
During this timeframe, Ludwigs2 made no edits to the talk page of the article. Only after his possibly third revert did he begin discussing on the talk page, as BRD requires Problematic conduct after this filing[edit]
Log of required notifications[edit]
Additional comment by filing party[edit]Note that nowhere in Ludwig2's voluminous statements does he resolve to stop comparing people to the KKK, calling them trolls, and other gratuitously offensive behaviors, and stop revert warring. Instead, he attempts to blame the messenger. Hipocrite (talk) 12:41, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Ludwigs2[edit]Statement by Ludwigs2[edit]I'm not sure what the purpose of this filing is, but allow me to note a few seemingly obvious things: for the required notifications section, Hypocrite lists:
This is not a promising beginning to an enforcement request. To his specific claims, I can make a few general statements:
Further, allow me to point out that - while I could have perhaps phrased these things somewhat better - my behavior on this page is a vast improvement over places where I have truly lost my temper. You should be pleased that I have improved my temper as significantly as I have, and take it as a positive sign. I'm not perfect, and my actions are not always going to be perfect; but by that token, Hypocrite is not perfect either: note that his sole activity on the article has been to revert substantive changes, usually without talk page discussion, and that his talk page use has been limited to things like:
This is, in fact, precisely the kind of behavior I have suggested is typical of certain skeptical editors, suggestions that Hypocrite is complaining about. I think that qualifies as multi-dimensional irony. As I have said, I have been being impeccably and thoroughly neutral and reasonable on the page - not perfect, no, but still impeccably and thoroughly so. I am making no headway, however, because editors like Hypocrite have made it clear that they are intent on poisoning the page so that putative 'advocates', 'apologists', 'true-believers' (or etc) cannot edit it. Kwami stated that fairly directly: "And then, of course, if they get that, they'll push for a little more, and a little more, all in the name of
Comments by others about the request concerning Ludwigs2[edit]
Comments by Collect[edit]Ludwigs2 is a passionate editor. He does however have a strong bent for incivility towards others, which well ought to be curbed. The diffs show part of this, but it is a general problem which he has, at times, acknowledged. It is likely that any admin will not impose the strongest discretionary sanctions, but clearly a minimal one may not be efficaceous. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment by mostly uninvolved A Quest For Knowledge[edit]I am mostly uninvolved in this dispute. IIRC, I have never edited this article. I only made one small suggestion on the article talk page[59] and my change was implemented by another editor.[60] Ludwigs2 made a comment to me that was a tad bit too aggressive and I started a discussion on his talk page. I would like to continue that discussion with him. Comment by Short Brigade Harvester Boris[edit]I have no real interest in Astrology other than occasionally glancing at the newspaper horoscopes and dipped into article for just a week or so (around late September - early October) after seeing it mentioned on a noticeboard or something. It was an eye-opening experience. There is a continual tension between a group of professional astrologers (such as User:Robertcurrey above, i.e., Robert Currey) and other advocates on the one hand, and more science-oriented ("skeptical") editors on the other. The article also is subject to ongoing external canvassing, including this plea on User:Robertcurrey's web site with helpful instructions on how to avoid looking too obvious. The result is a trickle of new (or maybe not) accounts who immediately bluelink their user and talk pages, make a few random edits, then become essentially WP:SPAs. Despite all this, there was constructive movement on the article and a more-or-less civil atmosphere overlying the tension. Ludwigs2 then arrived on the scene to pour butane on troubled waters, with cheerful remarks comparing science-oriented editors to the KKK and such. Amusing in its way but at that point I decided to bow out. I leave it to the wisdom of those enforcing the sanctions to decide what to do; it's of little consequence to me, as I think editing the article just isn't worth the hassle. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:18, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Zachariel[edit]I have made some discussion and some light edits on the main Astrology page today, and have been heavily involved in the page in the past – but not, I believe, in the period that Ludwig2 has been active in the subject. Nor do I know him/her; and don’t believe I’ve had any involvement with this editor in the past. I have read through the discussion page today and seen the offending comments in context. In context, I cannot see how Ludwig2 can be accused of poisoning the well of an article that is suffering from such blatant edit-warring and polarised editing. Those who have criticised him(?) of bold editing without discussion have done the same. He has been outspoken in calling the situation as it is, but no more uncivil than several of those who are criticising him here (it seems just as bad to me, if not worse, to lump editors into presumed camps and leave indirect insults and implied accusations which generate sinister assumptions and create the divisive conditions that Ludwig2 has commented on). Ludwig2 does not appear to want to promote or rubbish the subject; he is arguing in favour of objective content that eliminates emotive bias and personal agendas. In this respect, his input is very valuable. He does come across as an editor who has seen such problems surface before and is intolerant towards them. Viewed as diffs his comments raise eyebrows, but given the overall tone of the general discussion going on, to me they just seem direct instead of barbed with sarcasm or portraying hostility as an undertone, as many other comments do. (It's there, just the same, but you have to smell it rather than read it). All of the editors who have edit-warred and changed the content significantly should be warned about their violation of the page policy which asks them to remember that the subject is controversial and that substantial changes need to be discussed on the talk-page before introduced into the article. Ludwig2 should be encouraged to collaborate more but so should others. It would be wrong to single this editor out for criticism that applies to many editors working on that page at this time, including those who are bringing their complaints against him here. -- Zac Δ talk! 14:02, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Olive[edit]I became interested in watching this discussion from the sidelines and have also made a couple of copy edits to the article. I have a very little, basic knowledge of astrology, and no desire to become involved in a contentious topic area. Ludwigs on this article has shown himself to be an assertive editor with the intelligence and skill to wade through the log jams that can result when editors are driven by POV s rather than being aware of a more neutral middle ground which Ludwigs and a few other editors like BeCritical seem to be. Being assertive and being straightforward when arguing for NPOV should not be confused with incivility especially when an editor clearly offers to redact any comments which may have offended other editors as here. And with out assertion what I've seen on contentious articles are endless rounds of discussion which go nowhere.
Comment by Count Iblis[edit]The full Moon may be to blame. Count Iblis (talk) 02:32, 13 October 2011 (UTC) Moved[edit]
Result concerning Ludwigs2[edit]
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Bdell555
[edit]Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Bdell555
[edit]- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- 2 lines of K303 09:18, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Bdell555 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Final remedies for AE case
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 07:45, 13 October 2011 Revert#1, adding back text originally added by Dbell555 here
- 02:32, 14 October 2011 Revert#2, within 24 hours of the previous revert
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Warned on 16:25, 17 June 2010 by RepublicanJacobite (talk · contribs)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
In addition to being a violation of 1RR, the edit is also a violation of WP:BLP and WP:SYN. I'll give some brief background just to help make it clear why. During The Troubles, the Provisional Irish Republican Army and/or Sinn Féin did at various times conducted both direct and indirect talks with the British Government or their representatives, including the 1972 talks when IRA members were flown to London, during the 1975 IRA ceasefire, during the 1980/1981 hunger strikers, and during the early 1990s. Throughout The Troubles, but completely unrelated to those talks, IRA members became informers and passed information to the police, army, MI5 or similar. Therefore to have a sentence in Martin McGuinness's article reading "He was in indirect contact with British intelligence during the hunger strikes in the early 1980s, and again in the early 1990s, but in a BBC interview stated that the penalty for "go[ing] over to the other side" was "death, certainly." It insinuates Martin McGuinness "went over to the other side" by talking with the British, when he didn't and he's talking about IRA members, who are well aware the penalty for informing is death as it's in the Green Book which they have to read before being sworn in. So it's synthesis to try and conflate two different issues, especially to add a BLP violating insinuation. But when all's said and done anyway, it's a 1RR violation no matter what. 2 lines of K303 09:18, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- I feel like I've stepped into some strange alternate universe where nothing makes sense.
- There is the original addition of the text, reading "although he stated that the penalty for fellow Republicans who "went over to the other side" was death.<ref>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch5u8YbOyIE McGuinness interview]</ref>"
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Martin_McGuinness&action=historysubmit&diff=455336065&oldid=455332631 There] is the first revert, reading "although he stated that the penalty for fellow Republicans who "went over to the other side" was death.<ref>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch5u8YbOyIE McGuinness interview]</ref>"
- Both edits were made by Bdell555, so the first revert was not some innocent mistake where he was adding back material previously added by another editor, it was a clear and unambiguous revert.
- Claiming that adding information to a completely unrelated article, which was once deleted, would be a revert because the article was deleted, well I hope anyone can see the amount of wikilawyering involved in that one.
- RepublicanJacobite's revert included WP:SYN in the edit summary, no attempt was made to comply with that with the second revert, nor was there any attempt to discuss on the talk page.
- Given Bdell555 is stil edit warring to include this without attempting to discuss, hopefully this can be dealt with soon? 2 lines of K303 11:54, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [63]
Discussion concerning Bdell555
[edit]Statement by Bdell555
[edit]In the above complaint, "Revert#2" is followed by "within 24 hours" in order to argue that this is an edit warring reversion. If time frame is relevant, and Wikipedia policy seems to indicate it is, then "Revert#1" should be followed by "within 16 months". This information is excluded, of course, because it doesn't support the claim that "Revert#1" is really a "revert" under a definition relevant to whether someone is edit warring. If one is to insist there isn't an identity and change issue by deeming the passage of 16 months and hundreds of intermediate edits to the article irrelevant, then by this logic I could return to, say, the Down with Webster article 50 years from now and ANY addition I make to the article could potentially be cited as a "reversion" in an edit warring complaint. Why? Because given that someone deleted the article in 2009, any addition I make, even in the distant future, is arguably a "reversion" of another's "work" (which was to delete everything). If an editor has declined to edit an article for more than 15 months, may I suggest that he or she has stopped edit warring? In the case at hand, I would dispute whether there was an edit war in the first place, given that last summer when my work was reverted I just let it remain deleted at that time. As for the content dispute, my "Revert#2" already attempted to answer an edit summary objection to my alleged "Revert#1". Any WP:SYN problem here could have been corrected by moving the material I added to somewhere else instead of deleting it, and instead of trying to cram this additional objection into an edit summary, the complainant could have explained his views on my User page, or better yet on the article Talk page, as opposed to first and finally introducing his argument here. However you want to define "edit warring" technically, in my mind it is undoing another editor's work without trying to minimize the undoing (e.g. by not making an effort to just partially revert or move, etc), without trying to work with the other editor(s) by changing the edit according to their objection(s), and without addressing the issue on the article Talk page. Given that more than a third of my edits to article and Talk pages are to the Talk pages, it is not like I am unwilling to discuss should the complainant be so inclined.--Brian Dell (talk) 09:06, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- To respond to the new allegations: 1) I have never claimed to be "adding back material previously added by another editor" and I have not called attention to any real or hypothetical cases involving this by way of argument (since those instances are irrelevant). My "innocent mistake" was thinking the "clock had restarted" after more than 15 months since the "clock" appears to be integral to determining whether edit warring is going on, both formally and in terms of common sense. If it NEVER restarts the guidelines should state that explicitly, in my view, because absent that people are going to make their own common sense assumptions about when edit wars begin and end. 2) re "wiki-lawyering" I'm not the party trying to take this content dispute to "court" 3) I "attempt[ed] to comply" with the WP:SYN objection with my latest edit and the complainant promptly responded by indicating that, as I suspected, this would not resolve the objection anyway! 4) the Talk page discussion, which in my view should have been initiated by the complainant before coming here to make demands on already busy admins, is underway now that the complainant has made some remarks warranting a longer response than an edit summary can provide.--Brian Dell (talk) 14:37, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Bdell555
[edit]Result concerning Bdell555
[edit]- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- Both of the edits listed above restore the phrase "over to the other side", which had previously been deleted by another editor. So there are in fact two reverts in 24 hours by Bdell555, and this is an actual 1RR violation. It should not be necessary to understand the complaint about WP:Synthesis to determine if this is a Troubles violation. A 24-hour block is a common remedy for a 1RR violation but it might be avoided if the editor will promise to avoid all Troubles articles for a month. EdJohnston (talk) 16:07, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Plot Spoiler
[edit]No action taken. Please make a new report for any new concerns. T. Canens (talk) 10:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||
Request concerning Plot Spoiler[edit]
Previously blocked on 06:03, 3 June 2010, for violation of this same sanction. Newcomer editor Public awareness (talk · contribs) may also need to be warned under ARBPIA as a result of this exchange.
Discussion concerning Plot Spoiler[edit]Statement by Plot Spoiler[edit]Please note, the ARBPIA notice was added to the page after all these reverts had been made. I did not see the ARBPIA restrictions on the page and honestly forgot about that rule. I think this is a relatively minor content issue between Public Awareness that should be covered on the article's Talk: page. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:21, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Plot Spoiler[edit]Comment Public awareness is on three reverts on the article in question, he is removing a quote which is sourced to the New York Times. The Last Angry Man (talk) 19:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, I did at the time of the edit remember something about very limited editing reverts for Israeli articles, but than I saw that Nableezy, AndresHerutJaim (190.17.232.48), and Plot Spoiler all made several quick reverts, so I did make a second revert. The situation was bleak so I went to Fastily (my go to admin) for advice, which I took and went to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard for help. Vesal did agree with my edit on the talk page for the article, that the current form did "imply that the man is a hypocrite" though he did not agree it was a BLP violation. I'm sure to remember now that I can only revert once for Israeli articles, but, where should I go for help when it is instantly clear the other editor has no interest in listening to get outside help as my section at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard was closed for being "premature"? Public awareness (talk) 20:28, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Regardless of the outcome of this complaint, I recommend that Public awareness be given the ARBPIA notice. (Plot Spoiler has already received it.) — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:26, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Plot Spoiler[edit]
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Ludwigs2
[edit]Appeal unsuccessful. T. Canens (talk) 13:51, 18 October 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Statement by Ludwigs2[edit]This topic ban was improper for the following reasons:
Proposed resolution to the Appeal I would like the topic ban lifted under the same conditions (slightly modified, for reasons given above) that I offered on the AE page:
Modifications are, of course, welcome if further guarantees are necessary on the project's side: my main concern is relief from punitive sanctions and some guarantee on my side that this ruling does not become an excuse to impose future sanctions vindictively. This is going to be my behavior regardless. Whether or not this sanction is lifted, I will be entering discussions on articles where I will run against this strong cultural bias, so it is obvious that I will need to be deeply circumspect in my actions regardless. We might as well begin on the astrology page now rather than later; the ban serves no particular purpose. --Ludwigs2 17:19, 14 October 2011 (UTC) quick response to KC, before I'm off for the day
KC, you are simply not being reasonable. --Ludwigs2 18:29, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Statement by KillerChihuahua[edit]Response to points as numbered by Ludwigs:
Please let me know if there are any questions, thank you. KillerChihuahua?!? 17:51, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Comment by Becritical[edit]I think the Ludwigs has earned himself some sanction, certainly, for being chronically uncivil. But the way it looks to me he has stated that he will not be uncivil anymore. Thus, I think 6 months is harsh. I was expecting something more like two weeks or a month, and then another chance to see if he can be civil and not refer to groups of editors in a negative manner. I would suggest revising the ban period to two weeks or a month, then give a longer ban if things do not go well when he comes back. He does have useful ideas on the articles where he edits. He is also correct that the more scientifically oriented editors are nasty to the advocates a lot. This is a fact for what it's worth. It is obvious that there are two sides at the article, and it would be unreasonable to try and make Ludwigs never mention that fact. The two sides obviously come from different social milieus. How about if he promises not to make his own behavior contingent on the behavior of others? Because I've been observing him for some time now, and eliminating that excuse would go 90% of the way to either having him be civil, or else be uncivil with no excuse at all. Be——Critical 19:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC) Comment Olive[edit]As long as a solution has been offered by Ludwigs as an effort to correct his own behaviour then a sanction becomes only necessary as a secondary step, that is, if the first step, in a community that professes to be non punitive, isn't effective. Self correction on Wikipedia by implication is a superior and preferred way to deal with behaviour that is not community accepted. And Ludwigs is right. Name calling is rampant in regards to some editors and by some editors.The truly unfortunate aspect is that this name calling has become so commonplace, like fringe POV pushers, advocate, and worse, and has become so engrained in the Wikipedia culture that it is accepted, brushed aside with out notice, or ignored. If any aspects of Ludwigs proposal isn't acceptable remove it , and amend the proposal. Always, our position must be to help editors improve behaviours, and to do so in a way that does not punish good and productive editors. Seems a simple, first-step solution has been offered. (olive (talk) 21:00, 14 October 2011 (UTC)) Comment by A Quest for Knowledge[edit]I have not participated in the discussion on the Astrology talk page, but I have followed it over the course of the last week. From watching the discussion, it's clear that Ludwigs2 has earned himself a sanction, but it's also clear that he's not the only one causing a problem. On the one hand, I am sympathetic to the viewpoint that the reason why Ludwigs2 is the only editor being banned is simply because he was only editor being reported. That's fine. I understand that. But on the other hand, by focusing on a single editor in a dispute when other editors are also causing a problem, it simply leads to gaming of the system. I don't fault anyone at AE for this happening. My point is that a more holistic approach is required. Maybe my point is beyond the scope of this appeal, but something is broken in the system itself. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:06, 15 October 2011 (UTC) Statement by SirFozzie[edit]Just a comment here, this caught my attention (I have AE on my watchlist). I personally do not consider the sanction to be out of line with expectations. In fact, I have concerns that this is seemingly a habit with Ludwigs2. Consider the events of the Arbitration Enforcement Sanction Handling ArbCom case. Ludwigs2 is a generally decent editor, as long as other editors remain relatively civil. However, they has a habit of "returning fire" so to speak. If they perceive someone as editing outside Wikipedia's norms and policies, then they feel justified in violating those norms to deal with it. Unfortunately, as the saying goes "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind". It is important to stay within Wikipedia's norms and policies when everyone else is.. it is just as important to do so when other editors are violating them, it means that admins and others in the topic area can see the difference between those playing by the rules and those who are violating them.. makes everyone's life easier....SirFozzie (talk) 20:21, 15 October 2011 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Ludwigs2[edit]Result of the appeal by Ludwigs2[edit]
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Jonchapple
[edit]Jonchapple is topic banned from articles relating to The Troubles, as well as the Ulster banner and British baronets, broadly construed, for a period of three months. KillerChihuahua?!? 11:39, 20 October 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Jonchapple[edit]
All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period). When in doubt, assume it is related. Terms of probation Participants placed on probation are limited to one revert per article per week with respect to the set of articles included in the probation. Any participant may be briefly banned for personal attacks or incivility. Reversion of edits by anonymous IPs do not count as a revert.
Additional Violation of Probation since report was filed. All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period). When in doubt, assume it is related. Terms of probation Participants placed on probation are limited to one revert per article per week with respect to the set of articles included in the probation. Any participant may be briefly banned for personal attacks or incivility. Reversion of edits by anonymous IPs do not count as a revert.
Again:
Discussion concerning Jonchapple[edit]Statement by Jonchapple[edit]I am fully aware of the sanctions under which I'm placed, but I haven't broken 1RR on any articles that come under the scope of the Troubles restrictions. If you've got some more diffs that prove I have, please provide them. JonCTalk 08:57, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
If you'd bothered to look at the page history of Adam Carroll, you'd notice the flag and British nationality have always been there as he's a racing driver that races with a British licence. From WP:MOSFLAG: "Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country, government, or nationality - such as military units, government officials, or national sports teams." (emphasis mine). This is the convention for racing drivers on Wikipedia, as the infobox is their racing infobox that displays their sporting information, including the country that they represent. I have now provided two sources from the two racing leagues Carroll has raced in since 2010 that clearly show he races as a Briton. You shouldn't edit articles related to subjects you clearly know nothing about (and have only found by trawling through my edit history; not for the first time). JonCTalk 12:52, 18 October 2011 (UTC) In response to One Ton Depot's assertion that he finds it "hard to reconcile with his comment a few months ago in the Nationality RFC that [he's] 'in agreement that the Anglo-Irish disambiguator is neccessary here'", I'd just like to make it clear that that particular discussion was for what should appear in the lead. I don't believe there was any discussion about what nationality should be in the infobox. Thanks. JonCTalk 11:17, 20 October 2011 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Jonchapple[edit]Considering the probation section reads "To address the extensive edit-warring that has taken place on articles relating to The Troubles, as well as the Ulster banner and British baronets, any user who hereafter engages in edit-warring or disruptive editing on these or related articles" (emphasis added) and Jonchapple is indeed edit warring regarding the Ulster Banner, his defence is incorrect, particularly as he is "fully aware of the sanctions under which I'm placed". 2 lines of K303 09:03, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Jonchapple[edit]
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Tuscumbia
[edit]Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Tuscumbia
[edit]- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 01:52, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Tuscumbia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Amended Remedies and Enforcement
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- [86] First revert on Gülablı article on 27 Sept.
- [87] Second revert on Gülablı article on 27 Sept.
- [88] Third revert on Gülablı article on 28 Sept.
- [89] First revert on 1990 Tbilisi-Agdam bus bombing article on 30 Sept.
- [90] Second revert on 1990 Tbilisi-Agdam bus bombing article on 30 Sept.
- [91] Third revert on 1990 Tbilisi-Agdam bus bombing article on 3 Oct.
- [92] Fourth revert 1990 Tbilisi-Agdam bus bombing article on 3 Oct.
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
The recent edits which I have highlighted above are what I believe a mere sampling of the improper conduct of user Tuscumbia. Though well-acquainted with the rules of Wikipedia and after editing here for well over three years and after having been topic-banned for no less than three times, Tuscumbia displays an editing behavior that is highly unwelcome and needlessly combative. As the above examples show, he demonstrates a proclivity to edit war excessively and to engage immediately in revert wars over the most insignificant issues rather than taking part in fruitful discussions (in what can best be termed as having issues of WP:OWNERSHIP). Even when tags are added to an article, long after an editor has expressed his misgivings on the pertinent issues, he still decides to remove them and claims the other editor's concerns as baseless. But is that really his judgment to make? Although in discussions reasonable arguments (to most viewers) are introduced, Tuscumbia chooses to play games and makes burdensome and unrealistic demands which are not all in accord with Wikipedia's guidelines but appear to aim mainly to exhaust the other editors' patience. And when a user finally expresses his exasperation over these type of time-consuming edits, all he receives is a response like this: "You know what? You can complain as much as you want because that's the only thing you're capable of..." ([95]). How do remarks like this help at all? And even after his long time spent on Wikipedia, he still feels he can create articles with such non neutral POV opening sentences as "The Vrezh...is an underground militant movement reportedly created by Dashnak leadership in 1989 to torment Azerbaijan..." [96] until another editor informs him of why such wording is so problematic.
Much as I was opposed to it, I was advised to present my grievances here by an administrator who is relatively familiar with such cases. I myself do not know what is to be done but familiar as I am with Tuscumbia's long history of edit wars and his tendency to make snide remarks against other editors, I believe perhaps a form of revert parole needs to be established to compel him to express his views on the talk page, rather than drive him to press the revert button with whatever edit he disagrees with. His attitude toward others must also become more constructive because what he is doing can best be termed as stonewalling. Regards, --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 01:52, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- I should like to add that this request has been re-listed after being archived by the bot on October 10.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Furthermore, even though Tuscumbia has been warned and topic banned twice for specifically choosing to exclude a sources based on his or her ethnicity, he still continues to use it in his arguments as evidenced by a remark he made just today.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:40, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- This is, for the record, the second time I am re-listing this complaint. While my original comments may now appear to be stale, I should just like to draw attention to Tuscumbia's comment here. Even after being topic banned and warned for bringing up the ethnicity of an author as a reason to exclude possibly a source, he continues to raise it as a major point in such arguments.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:02, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- Tuscumbia, please do not misrepresent my comments. My considerations are based solely on the scholarly credentials of individuals, as well as the political environments they work in. If a source has a known affiliation which can credibly be raised as prejudicing their conclusions, then something to has to be said. That is not the same as touting someone's ethnic heritage as a reason to exclude an author, for which you have given ample warning. And Sandstein's "restriction", for the record, was just a courteous reminder and something that is given whenever someone edits on Wikipedia. He did not necessarily have to tell me that such comments were unacceptable since this is a common fact. Now please stop shifting the argument to me and please tell us why a source's ethnic heritage is sole grounds for sudden exclusion or suspicion.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Tuscumbia
[edit]Statement by Tuscumbia
[edit]Frankly, I don't even know how to react to this report which has no grounds, no evidence of wrongdoing and most importanly, is filed in bad faith. First off, the report itself is apparently filed in retaliation to the report I had filed on Takabeg which also included the inputs from Marshal Bagramyan. You might notice that ever since that report was filed (and was archived without result for reasons which I still don't understand), Marshal has been following me on articles I created such as 1990 Tbilisi-Agdam bus bombing, 1991 Azerbaijani Mil Mi-8 shootdown and Vrezh in an obvious attempt of trolling and disruptive editing activity. Now, I would understand if an editor has grounds for concern and puts forward reliable sources to support his arguments, but you will not see that in Marshal's edits and arguments. I will present that evidence below.
- Article Gülablı: In his report above, Marshall hides the evidence of his wrongdoing. On September 15, he made this edit, replacing the legitimate name of Gulabli with Vazgenashen, which is an illegitimate name given by the separatist authorities currently in control of the village, albeit the name Gulabli is sourced from a neutral GEOnet Names Server. More importantly though, he added this Armeniapedia link as a source for his additions. Armeniapedia is a one sided unreliable source owned and operated by User:RaffiKojian ([98]) who has been recently collaborating with Marshall on articles Dashalty and Barda, Azerbaijan. Off-Wiki coordination? His second edit is the revert to his version from User Dighapet and third edit is the revert from my version where I restored information based on neutral sources, including the name Vazgenashen as called by Armenians and adding links to other Wikipedia, removing the Azerbaijani drone shootdown section which incorrectly referred to the village as Vazgenashen, based on Armenian news piece Armenian Reporter. My second revert on September 27 13:58 and one on September 28, commenting on existence of POV on the talk page [99] and [100]. As another user Vugar mentioned providing a link to Wikimapia, the village Vazgenashen is not even the same village. See the map and description in Russian: Село, построенное после Карабахской войны для армян-беженцев (A village, built for Armenian refugees after Karabakh war)
- Article 1990 Tbilisi-Agdam bus bombing, my revert on September 30 is the undoing of Marshall's I DON'T LIKE IT attitude, where he replaced the word "terrorist" and removed the affiliation of the terrorist group to Dashnaks, completely disregarding the sources [101] and [102] which corroborate the text of the article. My second revert is undoing of the edit by a sockpuppet Szeget of an infamous sock master Xebulon (I do wonder how this sockpuppet finds his ways to be on the same page as Marshall. Off-wiki coordination? Ducking?) My first revert on October 3 is undoing of Marshall's violation of WP:OR and WP:IDONTLIKEIT because all he does is change the sourced data to make it seem less reliable by removing words like "perpetrators" and reference to Dashnaks, again, when the text is supported by sources and while Marshall does not provide a single source for his changes although I repeatedly asked him to provide sources which corroborate his argument and changes [103], [104], [105] which he, in turn, calls "overburdensome request". My secondrevert on October 3 is the removal of POV and Unreliability tags which Marshall added on October 3 in the absence of any sources to support his arguments and changes. To sum up, instead of looking for sources supporting his arguments, he likes to just add tags. Tags are added when something is disputable and both sides present sources upon which compromise is being reached. This user adds tags as last resort to mislabel the article, already well sourced.
- Article Vrezh, sourced with 3 reliable sources: Marshall was just as active in disputing the data in this article. While his mentioning of reportedly created by Dashnak leadership in 1989 to torment Azerbaijan above is correct, he selectively forgets to mention that I did respond to him saying I was going to add quotation marks to the words directly quoted from the book: the Dashnak leadership created an underground armed movement called Vrezh ('vengeance' in Armenian) which was to torment Azerbaijan and the northern Caucasus for years to come, but that I reworded it to ...to fight Azerbaijan and authorities in Northern Caucasus by bombing civilian targets, which still didn't satisfy Marshall and to which his response was the information is copied from "Azerbaijani websites", which is a baseless claim by itself because no Azerbaijani website has been used in creating this article. Needless to say, Marshall's arguments derive from not liking what is sourced in the article.
Last, but not least, Marshall's misuse of admin's note as if it were instructions from AGK to report me, is simply an act of intended misrepresentation. AGK asked to report your concerns on this board to resolve the issues instead of asking him to resolve in on his page, not because he reviewed the evidence and supports you.
One more thing Marshall selectively forgets when bashing me about topic bans, is that he himself has been a subject to revert paroles and topic bans on AA2 4 times, including an indefinite topic-ban on Azerbaijan-Armenian pages (later reduced to one month) and indefinite restriction for making derogatory statments about sources or their authors based on nationaility, place, publication or similar general characteristic. So, who is really a long time edit-warrior and displays disruptive behavior?
I, in the years of editing (less that Marshall has spent) have created 343 articles for various subjects including oil and gas fields, government bodies and institutions, food and drinks, TV shows and personalities, crime, terrorism related to Norway, United States, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Brazil, Germany, Sweden, Russia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Angola, Romania, etc. It just happens that most of articles I created fall under category Azerbaijan which seemingly causes discontent for MarshallBagramyan who decided to get rid of me. I think the admininstrators of this board should take a thorough look at the evidence, including Marshall's long term wrongdoings and take adequate action. Tuscumbia (talk) 14:09, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
- I am really not sure where exactly on the discussion page of the article Marshall sees me "excluding" authors based on ethnicity, as he tries to entrap me into enforcement? What I said was that while the data is conflicting (see on 1823 data from neutral authors and 1897 census of Russia), and while he discredits neutral authors who have no relative affiliation to Azerbaijan, the author of Armenian heritage is more likely to write in favor of Armenian side of the story than those unrelated to Azerbaijan authors in favor of Azerbaijani side. And this is all because Marshall tries to dismiss any reliable neutral source which does not support his claims. My full response on Marshall's misinterpretation is on the talk page of the article. Tuscumbia (talk) 17:08, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- Response to the additional note for relisting
The user MarshallBagramyan who filed this report and who twice relisted it on this board fails to highlight his own wrongdoings. I will address the above addition by Marshall on my comment about his selective sourcingfirst. First of all, the comment has nothing to do with ethnicity of the author per se but should rather be reviewed in the actual context of discussion on conflicting census data. And the resume of the discussion is that:
- George Bournoutian (Marshall's source who is of Armenian heritage) says one thing
- Four other authors, namely, Anoushiravan Ehteshami, Svante Cornell, Frederick Coene and Suzanne Goldenberg (neither one of them Azerbaijani nor Armenian) say something different.
- I additionally provided basis (from Russian Imperial Census) for my argument that considering various parts of the census data, there are grounds for indepth analysis of Marshall's source which are also voiced by the four authors in their books. Hence the discussion of the sources on the talk page of the article. So, what another editor (Neftchi/Mursel) initially did in full compliance was that he retained Marshall's earlier addition but also added an alernative view of four authors indicating "According to...", etc. However, Marshall went on discrediting those four authors, claiming that his source prevails. Furthermore, he deleted one of the sources (by Suzanne Goldberg) and even added a link in Further Reading section to the point of view by his source George Bournoutian which criticizes other alternative views.
So, what we have is:
- the author used by Marshall (George Bournoutian) who is of an Armenian heritage and writes in favor of Armenian version of demographic changes in the region and criticizes all other alternative views;
- four authors used by Neftchi (Anoushiravan Ehteshami, Svante Cornell, Frederick Coene and Suzanne Goldenberg) who are of Persian, Swedish, Jewish heritage and write alternative views countering George Bournoutian's version of events.
And Marshall is favoring Bournoutian over other unrelated to Azerbaijan authors. Where is the logic here? That's what I was highlighting in my comment. Tuscumbia (talk) 19:05, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- Another important fact about author-bashing
As you will witness from this thread, Marshall is attempting to get a well sourced article using the same tactics. Please take a look at his first comment where he bashes an unbiased neutral author Charles van der Leeuw saying "...some of them also have a discernible affiliation with Azerbaijan, such as Charles van der Leeuw..." and then please take a look at his other statement a few days earlier saying "...even the two non-Azerbaijani government affiliated sources, van der Leeuw and Bolukbasi, make use of the word allegedly...". So, it looks like Marshall knows a particular author is not affiliated with any government and is unbiased, yet he discredits authors when he wants and how he wants when their certain works or arguments cause him much discomfort. Again, this is a user who has himself been placed under indefinite restriction for making derogatory statments about sources or their authors based on nationaility, place, publication or similar general characteristic and has violated his three months topic ban (from Jule 23 to october 23, 2010) in edits like this one adn was not blocked as a result. Tuscumbia (talk) 19:05, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Tuscumbia
[edit]I'm pretty swamped in meatspace. Can someone else take a look at this?--Tznkai (talk) 23:17, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- I just blocked User:Kermanshahi and User:Takabeg pursuant to edit warring requests. Not sure if that is relevant here.--Tznkai (talk) 20:52, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Result concerning Tuscumbia
[edit]- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- Link to the remedy you want enforced, not the case. It is a small thing, but it is you who should be doing these small things, instead of making an already difficult task that much more work.--Tznkai (talk) 23:57, 4 October 2011 (UTC)